What were the Nephilim

[WhiteWings]

The Apocrypha claim the disembodied Nephilim are the origin of demons

But the book of Adam and Eve tells a diffrent story. Lillith mated with hundreds of demons. That was evne before Adam and Eve were kicked out the Garden. With enough books everybody is right  :winkgrin:

[Molly]

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

--Daniel 8

[WhiteWings]

wasnt Goliath [of the EARTH ]a ""GIANT" :happy3:  :icon_flower:

Ask Beloved Servant  :grin:

[Taffy]

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

--Daniel 8

Do NOT put your"TRUST" In Princes[ Which are MEN= [ADAM]  :icon_flower:

Psa 76:12 He shall cut off the spirit of princes: [he is] terrible to the kings of the earth.

Psa 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.  :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

Hello Thinktank,

Let us say point 2, and 3 is your belief.

Do you believe those angels were ever part of the Kingdom of God?

If point 2 and 3 were my belief I'd say that, if Peter or Jude is refering to the angels that disobeyed long ago, are the same angels that theoretically mated with humanity, then according to the language used, they imply that they disobeyed. So before they obeyed then they would, I assume be a part of Gods kingdom, appropiating that is the amount of imformation available. But according to enoch's book if I recall correctly, then these angels already rebelled once, and would rebel once more by commiting this act. This could explain why the devil get's away scot free, while these other angels are imprisoned in Tartarus/abuss, possibly also refered also in the book of revelation, i.e ephrates river.

Another theory is that these angels are different to the devil and his angels, since the Devil sinned from the begining. Does this refernce to Genesis 1.1 and also when John said, in the begining was the word.

I would prefer to keep this a seperate topic, because it is important. But knowing this info could shed some light on these angels that disobeyed.

One scripture that molly brings up is that these angels are called sons of God and the devil came also among them.

Notice in that scripture that God makes a seperate category to the devil and these angels. Jesus calls the devil the Father of lies. However these angels are called sons of god(?God)

The devil is loose but these angels are imprisoned. So how are these angels imprisoned?

One scripture says that before Christ we were held in bondage to the devil, but now we have power over all the scorpions, worms, cankerworm and all the power of the enemy.

So if it took Christ to come, in order for us to chain up these dark forces, how is it that before christ these angels are imprisoned!

I have a theory that these angels imprisoned might be God's angels, while the Devil is an evil force who existed in the begining. Perhaps the devil was created when Pre incarnate Jesus was created, creating an arch nemesis for Christ until the times comes for Christ to defeat the devil and all his enemies. With this in mind, it is now feasible for Christ to totally destroy the devil in the lake of fire, because the devil was never part of Gods creation to begin with (i.e God cannot lie, but the devil is the Father of lies). This theory is new and have not looked at all angles yet, but so far it makes a great deal of sense, and could in fact be a key issue with Universal salvation, because knowing that the devil was never part of Gods creation, means it is logical and morally acceptable for God to destory him in the lake of fire and overcomes the potential current contraversial UR issue of whether the devil will be restored and Jesus and he end up being pals.

For a kind of viewpoint on what I am trying to convey, maybe take a look at the movie the matrix 2. The part when Mr Anderson is created, from Neo. The arch nemesis of Neo. Likewise when the word was created, what could have taken place was that darkness took place in Genesis 1.2, where Jesus the logos was "copied", (his powers, not morality) (Mystery) and His arch nemesis the Devil was created. So now He christ must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet  :bigGrin:

I am quite excited by this theory  :happy3:

[thinktank]

Of course there is a difference between begotten and created but still it's strange Jesus isn't the son of God but the son of mankind

He refers to himself as the son of Adam, referencing the generation of Adam in Gen 5.  He is making it clear that he is the kinsman redeemer of the offspring of Adam, that is, mankind.

You are missing my point Molly. He is teh Son of God BUT He calls Himself Son of Man. So if a Son of man is the son of God how much value can we put in sons of God being sons of God?

--> So at that time there were: humans, nephlim and hybrids

well, now you are confusing me because the nephalim were the hybrid of gods and men.

That's not how I read the verse. There were Nephlim BEFORE the mated with humans.

They also had children going forward.

And only those children are called men of renown.

So somebody might be a third generation nephal for instance--but still a hybrid

I don't agree with that.
Not possible but assume we crossbreed a rabbit with a dog. Would you call the offspring, no matter the number of generations, a parrot or a dog? I would call the offspring radogs...
So they are no 3rd generation rabbits. They are 3rd generation radogs. (assuming they keep they only mate with other radogs)

They did change their names several times. The original mutated beings are called Nephilim, successive generations are termed Anunniki, also the bible says that different groups called them different names.


If one is wondering why is it that the angels only mated in early Babylonian times and never comitted this act again?

I have a potential answer and that is, that they were affraid of Gods judgment of going to the abyss. So no one would dare try that stunt again. With this in mind it becomes easier to define different groups. Otherewise the angels could pop down here any time and produce a new breed of mutated beings. But I think they only did it once, and maybe dinosaurs and other giants such as sabertooths are a result of their experiments or whatever they were doing, and could explain why nearly all of these giant are extinct, because they were mutants and could not survive life, or God destroyed them to prevent them polluting the animal kingdom.

[WhiteWings]

Notice in that scripture that God makes a seperate category to the devil and these angels. Jesus calls the devil the Father of lies. However these angels are called sons of god(?God)

You mean teh god of this earth?  (satan)

The devil is loose but these angels are imprisoned. So how are these angels imprisoned?

I have a theory that these angels imprisoned might be God's angels, while the Devil is an evil force who existed in the begining. Perhaps the devil was created when Pre incarnate Jesus was created, creating an arch nemesis for Christ until the times comes for Christ to defeat the devil and all his enemies. With this in mind, it is now feasible for Christ to totally destroy the devil in the lake of fire, because the devil was never part of Gods creation to begin with (i.e God cannot lie, but the devil is the Father of lies). This theory is new and have not looked at all angles yet, but so far it makes a great deal of sense, and could in fact be a key issue with Universal salvation, because knowing that the devil was never part of Gods creation, means it is logical and morally acceptable for God to destory him in the lake of fire and overcomes the potential current contraversial UR issue of whether the devil will be restored and Jesus and he end up being pals.

That would mean God didn't create everything. There is another creator.

[WhiteWings]

They did change their names several times. The original mutated beings are called Nephilim, successive generations are termed Anunniki, also the bible says that different groups called them different names.

Not the Nephlim are given different names. It was their hybrid (human/Nephlim) children râphâ'  /  râphâh that got different names.

[thinktank]

Jesus said it not me.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Perhaps we accept the fact that God did not create a lie.

"If I said all people in the world are great". Then in another chapter say "One person is a bad influence"

=
6 billion people great, except one.

God created all things, except a lie.

[thinktank]

    Notice in that scripture that God makes a seperate category to the devil and these angels. Jesus calls the devil the Father of lies. However these angels are called sons of god(?God)
Tank

You mean teh god of this earth?  (satan)
wings

I put in god(?God) because I forgot which letter the bible used. Depending on which letter makes a big difference. If it is little "g" then the god of this earth is the devil, which means they are sons of the devil. But if it is big "G" it means they are sons, to paraphrase, it means they belong to God, his creations.

The devil is loose but these angels are imprisoned. So how are these angels imprisoned?

Well the theory is in 2 ways

1. If the devil is a rebellious angel, then it means that he played the rules well and did not break certain rules held in place by the courts in heaven. But the angels who disobeyed and mated and commited the crime, had to pay the penalty for the crime they comitted. Another factor to consider is that, even though the devil is considered leader, did he play a part in the rebellion at all?. If not it means these angels comitted the crime outside of Gods will and outisde of the devils plans, but did their own thing.

2. If the devil was not part of God's creation and just exists as part of destiny and is here as an archenemy to Christ. Then it means that the sons of God who commited this crime were put in jail, becuase God chastizes his sons, the scripture says that is is good that one is chastized because then you are Gods sons, but if not, then who's son are you.

The devil is not put in jail because he is not Gods son and is an archenemy that must be overcome by Christ, who must reign until all his enemies are put under his feet. We can sense the power of the devil, because the archangel michael, did not arrest him in his own strength or bring against him false accusation but said "lord rebuke thee"

[Molly]

They turned to serving other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them.
--Deut 29:26

This is a pretty pregnant sentence.  It refers to the Israelites worshipping and serving 'other gods.'  But, more than this, it points to the fact that YHWH has not allotted  these gods to them.
The meaning of this can only be that there are other peoples [the pagans] who have been allotted to these other gods  [elohiym, ben elohiym, sons of God].

So the question is--is this just a construct to distinguish between the Israelites and others, or do these gods really exist and are given rule over other peoples by YHWH?

Remember the days of old,
consider the years long past;
ask your father and he will inform you;
your elders and they will tell you.
When Elyon apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the gods (benê 'elōhîm);
the Lord's own portion was his people,
Jacob his allotted share.
--Deut 32:7-9


The Lord kept Jacob for himself.  He appointed the sons of God to rule the other nations. For the Israelites to worship other gods was not only a betrayal, it spit in the face of the divine [ly decreed] order.

[Molly]

You mean teh god of this earth?  (satan)
wings

I put in god(?God) because I forgot which letter the bible used.

It's actually the god of this age, referring to Satan.  Some translations say the god of this world, but the word in the Greek is 'aion,' meaning age.



The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
--2 Cor 4:4

[WhiteWings]

 Deut 3:11 "For only Og king of Bashon was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit."

Several books later 1 Sam 17:23 tells us about giant Goliath.

[WhiteWings]

After all those posts we made little to no progress...
1] We still don't know what the Nephlim are.
2] We don't know why only male Neplim mated with human women. Why not female Nephlim with male humans?
3] Depending on the translation 1 -3 verses are about Nephlim all others use another Hebrew name.
4] Almost nothing is said about the Nephlim. They mated with femal humans and that's it.
5] They are spoken of in past tense "of old". As if they (hybrids) were extinct before Genesis was written. That's a problem for the timeline.
6] Numbers 13:33 calls the Nephilim sons of Anak (neck).

[WhiteWings]

They turned to serving other gods, worshiping them, gods whom they had not known and whom he had not allotted to them.
--Deut 29:26

This is a pretty pregnant sentence.  It refers to the Israelites worshipping and serving 'other gods.'  But, more than this, it points to the fact that YHWH has not allotted  these gods to them.
The meaning of this can only be that there are other peoples [the pagans] who have been allotted to these other gods  [elohiym, ben elohiym, sons of God].

So the question is--is this just a construct to distinguish between the Israelites and others, or do these gods really exist and are given rule over other peoples by YHWH?

Remember the days of old,
consider the years long past;
ask your father and he will inform you;
your elders and they will tell you.
When Elyon apportioned the nations,
when he divided humankind,
he fixed the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the gods (benê 'elōhîm);
the Lord's own portion was his people,
Jacob his allotted share.
--Deut 32:7-9


The Lord kept Jacob for himself.  He appointed the sons of God to rule the other nations. For the Israelites to worship other gods was not only a betrayal, it spit in the face of the divine [ly decreed] order.

^YLTExod 20
3 `Thou hast no other Gods before Me.

Starts sounding like Greek mythology.
Lots of gods in a constant state of rebellion ruled by the supreme god Zeus. They also mated with humans and produced half-gods like Hercules.

[Molly]

Starts sounding like Greek mythology.
Lots of gods in a constant state of rebellion ruled by the supreme god Zeus. They also mated with humans and produced half-gods like Hercules.

Who says Greek 'mythology' was totally wrong?  This was their religion, their understanding of the cosmos.  The Greeks were well known in the ancient world for being rational and scientific.  It's not like they were in mud huts beating on drums [not that there is anything wrong with that lol].  Why couldn't all of humanity be given a peek at what is going on in the spiritual world?  He gives all men a measure of faith.  Zeus as a baby was saved by Gaia.  Who do you think we are tricked into worshipping on Earth day?  People still worship these beings.


Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.

23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.

24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

--Acts 17

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Hello Thinktank,

Let us say point 2, and 3 is your belief.

Do you believe those angels were ever part of the Kingdom of God?

I have a theory that these angels imprisoned might be God's angels, while the Devil is an evil force who existed in the begining. Perhaps the devil was created when Pre incarnate Jesus was created, creating an arch nemesis for Christ until the times comes for Christ to defeat the devil and all his enemies. With this in mind, it is now feasible for Christ to totally destroy the devil in the lake of fire, because the devil was never part of Gods creation to begin with (i.e God cannot lie, but the devil is the Father of lies). This theory is new and have not looked at all angles yet, but so far it makes a great deal of sense, and could in fact be a key issue with Universal salvation, because knowing that the devil was never part of Gods creation, means it is logical and morally acceptable for God to destory him in the lake of fire and overcomes the potential current contraversial UR issue of whether the devil will be restored and Jesus and he end up being pals.

For a kind of viewpoint on what I am trying to convey, maybe take a look at the movie the matrix 2. The part when Mr Anderson is created, from Neo. The arch nemesis of Neo. Likewise when the word was created, what could have taken place was that darkness took place in Genesis 1.2, where Jesus the logos was "copied", (his powers, not morality) (Mystery) and His arch nemesis the Devil was created. So now He christ must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet  :bigGrin:

I am quite excited by this theory  :happy3:

The question is, were those angels ever part of the Kingdom of God?  Your theory believes that they were.

What if I were to tell you, Jesus said they were never part of the Kingdom, and in fact, if what your theory said is true, then Jesus says that God Kingdom will always fail?

Thank-you,

Dr. Anthony Carnasis

[thinktank]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?


But don't agree with the part that the angels who sinned and left their habitations spoken of in Jude and Peter, were originally Gods sons?

Then the question is why does God calls them his sons?

He doesn't call the devil his sons.

Also I don't understand why you said "if what your theory said is true, then Jesus says that God Kingdom will always fail?"

If these angels were originally part of Gods kingdom, but now are chained up ! Ok so what difference does it make, if they were originally part of Gods kingdom or not, in respect to the idea that somehow if...

Do you mean that because now they have fallen and are chaind up, God will destroy them just as the devil and that means according to you that God will fail, to restore all things?

But my question is, if you mean that, then where does it say these angels will be destroyed?. I think they will be restored because God says that he will restore all things. However according to my theory, it means that restoring the devil, will mean destroying him, because he was not part of Gods kingdom to restore. Also if the devil is as I theoroized an evil force who existed at the begining, between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2, then restoring him would mean, restoring evil, which might give rise to another chaotic disturbance in the universe.


. But these angels who fell were part of Gods kingdom and have paid the penalty for their sins, by being chained up in tartarus, restoring these angels would mean they would return to their former estate and would receive mercy , just as humanity have received mercy.


ps
I'm not claiming to invent the idea concerning the devil existing from the begining, I think some here have already posted about that, but I think they saw the devil as an evil force of adversity, rather than a real being of evil, so my theory is slightly different and I think the part about the angels who left their former habitation to be restored, is also new.

[Molly]

I agree that those sons of God who fell from their first estate and rebelled against God were once part of the divine council.  There are others, too, who are still part of the council who are wicked, and these God is warning in Psa 82 that they will die like men.  Paul tells us to vibrate against them in Eph 6.

Whether they are restored or not I don't know, but if they are, we human sons of God will still rule over them with Christ during the millenium.

[redhotmagma]

Hey ThinkTank

Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

How do you reconcile this verse with your theory?  It seems that Jesus created everything including Satan (whatever he is)

[thinktank]

drats that's the end of my theory  :laughing7:, at least on surface, but these things require deep thought and prayer.

The four options so far I have found concerning the devil are

1. He was created good, but then fell into disobedience (Thou anointed cherub was in the garden of eden, perfect till iniquity found in you) Tradditionally the lucifer scripture in Isiah is more often used, but personally I don't see this particular scripture as being solid evidence and kind of believe it is talking about someone else.
2. He was created evil from the begining (The serpent was more subtle (=Evil?)that the lord God created
3. He somehow was mysteriously created in the begining as an archenemy of Christ, outside of God creation, so that the bible doesn't even attempt to explain how it happened, only says, that the devil exists. (The devil came to thief, kill and destroy, but I came to bring life - Genesis 1.1, 1.2
4. He was created good, but God decided to turn him into a devil, an enemy for Christ and his followers to overcome and resist temptation ( All things were created for him and through him - Who can resist his will? - who art thou clay that answereth to the potter)



I find that each of these ideas has scriptural challenges, mainly because that Jesus said that the devil is the father of lies.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?

It is of my studied opinion, that anything like the devil and his angels did not originate as part of God's Kingdom but was created outside and set themselves up as ones trying to get in.

But don't agree with the part that the angels who sinned and left their habitations spoken of in Jude and Peter, were originally Gods sons?

Peter and Jude do not call them sons of God, Peter and Jude call them angels. The proper term being, "messengers" not the celestial spirit beings.

Also I don't understand why you said "if what your theory said is true, then Jesus says that God Kingdom will always fail?"

If these angels were originally part of Gods kingdom, but now are chained up ! Ok so what difference does it make, if they were originally part of Gods kingdom or not, in respect to the idea that somehow if...

A kingdom divided against itself will fail.

Do you mean that because now they have fallen and are chaind up, God will destroy them just as the devil and that means according to you that God will fail, to restore all things?

It is a metaphor, a parable in which hearing people don't hear, and seeing they won't see. There area no literal angels bound up in eternal chains. You have a group of people veiled from walking in the truth, a people cut off from the blessings of God because of their unbelief until another people who were not His people are gathered in.

But my question is, if you mean that, then where does it say these angels will be destroyed?. I think they will be restored because God says that he will restore all things. However according to my theory, it means that restoring the devil, will mean destroying him, because he was not part of Gods kingdom to restore. Also if the devil is as I theoroized an evil force who existed at the begining, between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2, then restoring him would mean, restoring evil, which might give rise to another chaotic disturbance in the universe.

There are many spirits that have tried to elevate itself as God, both human and non-human and they do not need to be 'destroyed', all they need to be is reconciled to their proper place.

But these angels who fell were part of Gods kingdom and have paid the penalty for their sins, by being chained up in tartarus, restoring these angels would mean they would return to their former estate and would receive mercy , just as humanity have received mercy.

They were not yet into the Kingdom, but you got the jist of it.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

The four options so far I have found concerning the devil are

1. He was created good, but then fell into disobedience (Thou anointed cherub was in the garden of eden, perfect till iniquity found in you) Tradditionally the lucifer scripture in Isiah is more often used, but personally I don't see this particular scripture as being solid evidence and kind of believe it is talking about someone else.
2. He was created evil from the begining (The serpent was more subtle (=Evil?)that the lord God created
3. He somehow was mysteriously created in the begining as an archenemy of Christ, outside of God creation, so that the bible doesn't even attempt to explain how it happened, only says, that the devil exists. (The devil came to thief, kill and destroy, but I came to bring life - Genesis 1.1, 1.2
4. He was created good, but God decided to turn him into a devil, an enemy for Christ and his followers to overcome and resist temptation ( All things were created for him and through him - Who can resist his will? - who art thou clay that answereth to the potter)

I really enjoy your conversation style, don't be too eager to give up on something simply because others have a difference of opinion. It is great that you are extrapolating in the way that you are.

Here is my response.

The devil and Satan are two different things but in some cases refer to the same thing.

The devil refers to a particular identity, while Satan refers to a position of authority, particularly an accuser, one who opposes another which spirit and flesh and stone have held.

The Sons of God and Angels are two different things but in some cases refer to the same thing.

The Sons of God are a particular identity, while Angel is a position of authority, particularly "Messenger" which spirit and flesh and stone have held.

The danger is of circular argument and oversimplified philosophy; just because they have similar themes doesn't make them the same and I would urge you to re-examine the Lucifer myth in more detail.

[thinktank]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?

It is of my studied opinion, that anything like the devil and his angels did not originate as part of God's Kingdom but was created outside and set themselves up as ones trying to get in.

--
TT
Could you elaborate a bit more?

But don't agree with the part that the angels who sinned and left their habitations spoken of in Jude and Peter, were originally Gods sons?

Peter and Jude do not call them sons of God, Peter and Jude call them angels. The proper term being, "messengers" not the celestial spirit beings.
----

TT
Ok , my assumption is that these angels are the very same that the bible talks about in Genesis, when the sons of God took the daughters of men.

Notice that they talk about those who disobeyed before the flood.

Also I don't understand why you said "if what your theory said is true, then Jesus says that God Kingdom will always fail?"

If these angels were originally part of Gods kingdom, but now are chained up ! Ok so what difference does it make, if they were originally part of Gods kingdom or not, in respect to the idea that somehow if...

A kingdom divided against itself will fail.
----
TT replies
But that doesn't mean they are divided. God has a kingdom and anything within that kingdom is considered on the same side. But those outside the kingdom are considred to be in devils kingdom. We as humanity are outside of Gods kingdom and are considred to be inside the devils kingdom. But there are those here who Christ has revealed, how to live in the kingdom of God, instead of living in the ways of the kingdom of the devil and these pass from this kingdom of darkness kingdom, to His kingdom of love. Both kingdoms are operating in the earth and ever since John the baptist , he who announced the coming of the great saviour and light of the world, the kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force. Millions of Christians have died in this world, because they operate within Gods kingdom.

The angels who left Gods kingdom are now just like us, part of the devil kingdom, until Christ restores, each in their own order.

Do you mean that because now they have fallen and are chaind up, God will destroy them just as the devil and that means according to you that God will fail, to restore all things?

It is a metaphor, a parable in which hearing people don't hear, and seeing they won't see. There area no literal angels bound up in eternal chains. You have a group of people veiled from walking in the truth, a people cut off from the blessings of God because of their unbelief until another people who were not His people are gathered in.

-------
Possibly, but do these angels interact with the world?. I think that they are spiritually chained and cannot interact, unless possibly by occult activity or something, I don't know what their world consists of.

But my question is, if you mean that, then where does it say these angels will be destroyed?. I think they will be restored because God says that he will restore all things. However according to my theory, it means that restoring the devil, will mean destroying him, because he was not part of Gods kingdom to restore. Also if the devil is as I theoroized an evil force who existed at the begining, between Genesis 1.1 and 1.2, then restoring him would mean, restoring evil, which might give rise to another chaotic disturbance in the universe.

There are many spirits that have tried to elevate itself as God, both human and non-human and they do not need to be 'destroyed', all they need to be is reconciled to their proper place.
-----
Does that include the devil?
But if he was originally "lucifer" or some cherub, then God would have created him inside the kingdom.

So I guess you are saying that God created the devil to be evil...or possibly you are saying that God created all beings in neutral territory and they can either press into Gods kingdom or go their own way, towards darkness.. that's actually a good theory, for Adam and Eve had a choice to enter the kingdom of life, through the tree of life, or to go their own way via the tree of knowledge, so they had a choice. The problem with this though is that the garden of Eden in some ways is the kingdom of God, but yet is depends on how one looks at it. Yes the garden was a luxurious place, but Las Vegas is also a luxurious place, but not necessarily operating inside of Gods kingdom of peace, grace, righteousness.

So maybe the garden of Eden is only kingdom based in terms of material wealth, but not so much spiritual wealth, although God did walk in the midst of the garden, but maybe this is similar to how we have a church(not merely building). The kingdom is "there" "available" but not something we take for granted, but something we press into.

But these angels who fell were part of Gods kingdom and have paid the penalty for their sins, by being chained up in tartarus, restoring these angels would mean they would return to their former estate and would receive mercy , just as humanity have received mercy.

They were not yet into the Kingdom, but you got the jist of it.

[Pierac]

So you agree with part of my theory that the devil forces were never part of Gods kingdom?

It is of my studied opinion, that anything like the devil and his angels did not originate as part of God's Kingdom but was created outside and set themselves up as ones trying to get in.

Just curious, how do you think something originates out side of God?  Did not Paul say at least 6 times... All things are of God. ?