I Thessalonians 4:15-18 question.

[cmksiu2005]

1Th 4:15  For this we declare to you on the Lord's own authority--that we who are alive and continue on earth until the Coming of the Lord, shall certainly not forestall those who shall have previously passed away.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will come down from Heaven with a loud word of command, and with an archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17  Afterwards we who are alive and are still on earth will be caught up in their company amid clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1Th 4:18  And so we shall be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I am pretty new here to the forums and first off want to thank those who gave me such a warm welcome! I really appreciate it! I had a passage I wanted to discuss and get some opinions on. I used to believe that most New Testament prophecy was yet to be fulfilled. After listening to and reading some stuff by Ken Gentry and Gary Demar online and in various articles and such, the argument that most New Testament prophecy has been fulfilled made a lot more sense to me. I also checked out Gary Amirault's rapture you missed audo here on the site and that seemed to fall into the same line of thought. How does this passage fit? It seems like this passage hasn't been fulfilled yet. Any thoughts?

P.S. Where does Matthew 24:40-41 fall into all of this?

Chris

[CHB]

Hi Chris,

Many may not see this the same as I do. First off, who is Paul speaking to (1Thess. 1:1)?  I think Paul was speaking to those who lived at the time Paul lived, not 2000 years in the future. Also, Paul does say "WE which are alive and remain"...he includes himself here. You have to ask yourself, who, what, where, when, to rightly divide the word.

(1Thess. 5:2-4) For YOURSELVES know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (Verse 4) BUT YE, BRETHERN, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief.

Some say that the apostles thought that Jesus would return in their day but they were mistaken. I don't think that is right because Jesus said the Holy Spirit would "LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH".  I know that the apostles did learn more as time went on but this was a big event, more than any other, why would they be lead to believe something that wasn't true?

Just my thoughts on this.

CHB

[Molly]

Yes, well, this is the rapture verse, isn't it?

It includes me, too.  "Then we which are alive and remain"...

That contains a hope for everyone reading it in the present tense.  It includes all of us which are alive and remain...

"shall be caught up"
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air

OK.  I could go for that.  The world is getting darker, but we are the children of light.  When he is coming for us at the end of the age, I think we will know it.


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

--1 Cor 15

[CHB]

Yes, well, this is the rapture verse, isn't it?

It includes me, too.  "Then we which are alive and remain"...

That contains a hope for everyone reading it in the present tense.  It includes all of us which are alive and remain...

Hey Molly,

I am not saying you are wrong, it is a possibility that you are right but there is a possibility that I am right,  maybe neither of us are right, I am not sure.

I question a rapture because I don't see it in the scriptures.

Are you sure you are included in this?

Notice that Paul said "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN".  He was speaking as though he along with others at that time would be alive when Christ returned. Why didn't Paul say "ALL or EVERYONE" instead of "WE and YOU", that way there would have been no question as to who he was talking about.  If I told my family that "WE would be going such and such" I don't think anyone else would think they were included.

Go back to the start of the book and read it as if it isn't about you and see what you come up with.

I could be wrong about this, am not saying that this is right, it is just the way I understand it as of now. A couple of years ago, I couldn't see this at all.  Once I started reading the New Testament as if it was for Israel and that time frame I saw a lot of things that I never saw  before.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Like always I have an altenative view :laughing7:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/both_saints_and_sinners_are_left_rapture..._9653.msg121911.html#msg121911

[Molly]

Hi CHB,

I am not saying you are wrong, it is a possibility that you are right but there is a possibility that I am right,  maybe neither of us are right, I am not sure.

For sure. :thumbsup:

Are you sure you are included in this?

Notice that Paul said "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN".

I read the whole NT as though it is written to me.  Paul is a living writer, as far as I'm concerned, writing in the present tense.  I don't read it as an historical account, the way I might read a first person account of the Revolutionary War, for instance.  I read it as the present tense, and apply anything that speaks to me to myself.

As an historical account, did this already happen as Paul describes it?  The dead in Christ have already been raised?  And those alive in Christ are caught up with them to be with Christ forever?  I don't see that as already happening.  70 ad was a destruction of the old system.  There has never been another temple or a Levite priesthood or animal sacrifice.  That really was done away with in 70ad, which is not something that I take lightly because imagine how amazing it is that it has been impossible for them to reinstate that system in 2000 years.

But this event described in Thess is happening to those in Christ, both dead and living, and it is happening to all of them at the same time--that is, as a group--as the body of Christ.  If 70ad described the end of an old world system relating to God's chosen [and the beginning of a new system], this event describes the end of the age because after this event, a new world system will be ushered in, and we will be changed.  That's my thinking about it for now.


Isaiah 9:6
... and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


   

[CHB]

I read the whole NT as though it is written to me.  Paul is a living writer, as far as I'm concerned, writing in the present tense.  I don't read it as an historical account, the way I might read a first person account of the Revolutionary War, for instance.  I read it as the present tense, and apply anything that speaks to me to myself.

Molly, this is where I think a lot of people get confused on a lot of things. I look at the Old and New Testament as a historical and a future event. I think you are right about Paul writing in the present tense at times but I also think a lot of what Paul wrote was to those who were living at that time.  Just like the sayings of Jesus. Most of the message of Jesus was to Israel because Jesus himself said "I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I think everything in the Bible is an example for us.

As an historical account, did this already happen as Paul describes it?  The dead in Christ have already been raised?  And those alive in Christ are caught up with them to be with Christ forever?  I don't see that as already happening.  70 ad was a destruction of the old system.  There has never been another temple or a Levite priesthood or animal sacrifice.  That really was done away with in 70ad, which is not something that I take lightly because imagine how amazing it is that it has been impossible for them to reinstate that system in 2000 years.

I think it did happen. Yes, the sacrificial system and temple were done away with in 70AD. What if there has already been a resurrection that happened in John's day? Remember Jesus telling the disciples "what is that to you if he {John} tarry till I come"? There are many scriptures that point to the return of Christ in 70AD.  "This generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled". Many other scriptures also.

But this event described in Thess is happening to those in Christ, both dead and living, and it is happening to all of them at the same time--that is, as a group--as the body of Christ.  If 70ad described the end of an old world system relating to God's chosen [and the beginning of a new system], this event describes the end of the age because after this event, a new world system will be ushered in, and we will be changed.  That's my thinking about it for now.

Right, I agree with what you said here.  Don't get me wrong, I still think Christ will return for us just like he did for those of John's day.  A new world system was ushered in 70AD. A completely different way of looking at Christianity was introduced by Paul. I think this teaching that Paul came to see is yet for the future and applies to us and not to those of Paul's day because Paul was kept from preaching much about it. It is called the Mystery that was kept hid from the world but was revealed to Paul.

CHB

[Molly]

Here's an interesting study:

The first resurrection and the last trumpet:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwIaYee2iI

[CHB]

I agree with most of this one.

http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm

There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

CHB

[jabcat]

I agree with most of this one.

http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm

There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

CHB

:thumbsup:   I know it can be "tricky", but I for one believe it's very important to be aware of who was being primarily addressed and about what.  Along with that, it's all for our learning and He can teach us and change us with every jot and tittle.   :2c:

[Molly]

I agree with most of this one.

http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm

There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.

CHB

That was interesting CHB.  He's making the argument that [some of or most of] Mat 24 is referring to 70ad.

But, couldn't that be true, and also not contradict that this passage in 1Thess is referring to a future time?


This part of Mat 24--do you think this has already happened?

Mat 24:30  AndG2532 thenG5119 shall appearG5316 theG3588 signG4592 of theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 inG1722 heaven:G3772 andG2532 thenG5119 shall allG3956 theG3588 tribesG5443 of theG3588 earthG1093 mourn,G2875 andG2532 they shall seeG3700 theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 comingG2064 inG1909 theG3588 cloudsG3507 of heavenG3772 withG3326 powerG1411 andG2532 greatG4183 glory.G1391
Mat 24:31  AndG2532 he shall sendG649 hisG846 angelsG32 withG3326 a greatG3173 soundG5456 of a trumpet,G4536 andG2532 they shall gather togetherG1996 hisG848 electG1588 fromG1537 theG3588 fourG5064 winds,G417 fromG575 one endG206 of heavenG3772 toG2193 the other.G206

[jabcat]

I'm not CHB, but I'm chiming in   lol

Although I believe much of Mt. 24 was fulfilled, I do wonder about that last part.  I admit it sounds future.

Here's an article from the TM homepage by Gary on the subject;  (Note - before there are screams of "Full Preterism"!   :eek:, Gary would be considered a partial preterist, meaning a belief that to varying degrees, some-to-much of scripture has been fulfilled - not all.)   I know he also believes there are possibly multiple fulfillments of certain things.   :2c:



The Coming of Christ in 70 A.D.

By Gary Amirault

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are thousands, perhaps millions, of people who, after reading the Bible, have come to the same conclusion to which one of the most famous atheists, Bertrand Russell, came . He felt Jesus couldn't be Who He said He was because the things He and His apostles said would happen in their time, didn't happen. Below are listed a few of the many passages they would point to and say these things were not fulfilled according to the plain reading of the English text. This list comes from a little booklet entitled, "Can God Tell Time," by Don Preston.

Matt. 10:23--Jesus said He would return in the lifetime of His disciples.
Matt. 16:27-28--Jesus said He would return with His angels to judge all men before every one standing there died.
Matt. 24:29-34--Jesus said He would return in the clouds with His angels--in that generation.
Acts 3:19--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophecies were fulfilled. If the Old Prophesies have not been fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-18)
Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand." That was said 1900 years ago!
1 Cor. 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short." Again, this was stated 1900 years ago to that generation.
Hebrews 9:28, 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while He that will come, and will not tarry." Is 1900 years a "little while?"
James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord," he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand," and "The judge is standing right at the door."
1 John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour." Again, the last hour was 1900 years ago!
Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc., etc.
Millions of people have read the Bible and said, "no more delay," "shortly," "quickly," "day is at hand," and "it is the last hour," cannot refer to thousands of years! These people have also had problems with Bible teachers taking scriptures like Daniel's 70 weeks and chopping the last 7 years of the prophecy and separating it by thousands of years from the first 69 weeks! They say if one does this with these kinds of scriptures, then one can turn the Bible into whatever they want.

As a result of Bible teachers twisting scriptures like the ones above and relegating them to our time, many sincere seekers have abandoned Christianity as an institution which declares truth. They have come to the conclusion that since the church teaches that Christ has not yet come back in His second coming, then Jesus and His apostles were false prophets. Therefore, they cannot put their faith and hope in Christianity. In the days ahead, we are going to look at all these scriptures and many more to see if, in fact, they were not fulfilled exactly as stated in the very generation to which Jesus was speaking. We are going to see, Jesus did return to that generation and fulfill everything He and His apostles said was "right at the door."

This world needs light. Many have abandoned any hope in Christianity, not because Jesus Christ missed it, but because many Bible teachers and preachers have missed it, big time! People, you are going to have so much joy seeing the Bible come together like it has never been seen before. We are indeed a blessed people and we are going to be a blessing to the world.

This study will be lengthy and cannot be completely discussed in Dew. The magazine is not designed to do this. We suggest those who want to study this out completely to do the following: 1. Get a copy of Josephus. Many Christian publishers have produced this work. I recommend trying to find an out-of-print version produced by Zondervan publishing edited by Cornfeld. It may be difficult to locate a copy, but it will be worth it if you find it. Most good seminaries will have more than one version of Josephus. He was a Jewish Priest and military commander who was captured by the Romans just prior to the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. 2. Read the section entitled War of the Jews. You will be amazed! 3. Order the tapes produced by Tentmaker entitled The Rapture of 70 A.D.. These tapes capture the history of Israel and Rome from approximately 30 A.D. to 73 A.D. and connect them with the sayings of Jesus and the apostles while tying Josephus into it. 4. Read future sections of Dew that will deal with the subject.

Just a little side remark on the tapes The Rapture of 70 A.D.. We do not teach the "rapture." This title was selected to attract those who do believe in the "any day now rapture." In 70 A.D. when the Jews were trapped in Jerusalem by the Roman Army, a prophet prophesied that God was going to deliver them. He told them to come to the Temple, the House of God and there God was going to "catch them away." There they waited to be "raptured away" by the God of Israel. Read and see their fate as narrated by Josephus:

"A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now, a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such deliverance.

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them."

Josephus then gave a list of many supernatural signs that God gave Israel, which they twisted to their own destruction. It is interesting to note those who were deceived into thinking God was going to rapture them were burned in their "House of God" which was full of their riches. Josephus writes:

"They also burnt down the treasury-chambers, in which was immense quantities of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods, there reposited; and, to all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers, (to contain such furniture). Their riches and their bodies were burned to ashes and blown away by the wind. I suppose the ashes of their bodies being blown away by the wind could qualify for the term "rapture," or "caught up to meet the Lord in the air," but I don't think those who believe in a "any day now rapture" have this in mind. Who knows, perhaps the escapist mentality of today will meet the same fate. The church is certainly the richest institution materially in the entire world and there are certainly many prophets in the land predicting a "rapture" from the tribulations that are to come upon the world. It has used may trickeries to get people to put their money into the church. I see great similarities between the spiritual state of Israel at the end of its age and the present time which many people seem to feel is the end of the "church age." The key question seems to be the ability to read the signs. The majority of the Jews read the signs wrong, which produced their destruction. There was a small group who read them right. They escaped the destruction and were allowed to enter into a new period of time. The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria. They were believers in the Messiah. The above mentioned tape series tells how they escaped.

I am so excited about the things our Father is unveiling for us. We should be grateful to be alive in such a day as this. Truly, we can be messengers of glad tidings. While "church" clings to its buildings, land, and material wealth, you are free to give to the world your spiritual riches in Christ Jesus. Rejoice, ye new heavens and earth!

 

[Molly]

One thing that I can know just by using common sense and no particular spiritual insight is

1) the kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ

2)the saints are not yet ruling with Christ

3)the government is not yet on his shoulders.

Now I suppose someone could argue that I [and other Christians] am the kingdom being referred to and all of the above refers
to and has been fulfilled in the kingdom of my life.  But my paltry little life seems a poor fulfillment of a prophecy that refers to kingdoms and kosmos.  If this is all there is, I will be very disappointed because
I think anyone could see that the world in general is still run by Satan.

[jabcat]

yeah, I don't know how much there's been, or how much to come

but i do believe there's been some and will be more...we will KNOW it when He is ALL in ALL,  and I suspect, we'll know (experience) much in the meantime as well

[WhiteWings]

One thing that I can know just by using common sense and no particular spiritual insight is

1) the kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ

2)the saints are not yet ruling with Christ

3)the government is not yet on his shoulders.

Now I suppose someone could argue that I [and other Christians] am the kingdom being referred to and all of the above refers
to and has been fulfilled in the kingdom of my life.  But my paltry little life seems a poor fulfillment of a prophecy that refers to kingdoms and kosmos.  If this is all there is, I will be very disappointed because
I think anyone could see that the world in general is still run by Satan.

Revelation 1:1  "must shortly come to pass." . Shortly is 2000 years?

[Molly]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

[CHB]

Hi All,

I think waht Jabcat posted is pretty much the way I see this. It was only a couple of years ago that I began to see that a lot of scripture had been fulfilled. There us to be a couple of Preterist on this forum and I use to refute and question them a lot. I started looking up everything I could about the fulfillment of prophecy and little by little I started seeing the scriptures in a different light.

I don't think everything has been fulfilled. Here are some of the things that I don't believe have happened yet.

I don't think the knowledge of the Lord has ever filled the earth. (Hab. 2:14) (Isaiah 11:9)
The wolf hasn't dwelled with the lamb, nor the bear and cow feeding together.
The lion eating straw like the ox.
A child playing on the hole of an asp.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.
Chapter 11 of Isaiah.
Everyone living to be 100.
Death will be abolished.
God will wipe away all tears and sorrow and pain.
There will still be a time for the Israelites in the kingdom of God on earth.
Christ will return again, with the saints that were in the first resurrection.
Christ will hand over everything to the Father.
All things will end as we know it now.
I believe parts of Revelation are still in the future.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

These are just some of the things that I think are yet to happen.

Here is something I have wondered about? (Rev. 19) In verse 10 John says "And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I AM THY FELLOWSERVANT, and OF THY BRETHERN THAT HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS".

I am not positive of anything but it does fit together when you read with these things in mind.

Here are things I have wondered about? Some I am confident of, some I am not.
If Jesus message was only for Israel as he said "wouldn't the Olivet Prophecy pertain to them?

What if Christ came back and got the saints along with the apostles and those who were resurrected when Christ was crucified?They are with him now and when it is time he will come back to earth, set up the kingdom that was promised to Israel.  Notice in some of the scriptures where it says he "will return with his saints"?  Could this 1000 years or whatever it is, be a time of learning and teaching and that is when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God?

Paul along with those who understood Paul, will be in heaven teaching the angels, Because paul said "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" If you notice; Paul's name was not included in those who would sit on twelve thrones. Maybe because he was chosen for something else?

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the whole thing. I am still learning, I may change my mind on some things if proven differently.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.

[Molly]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.

I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.

We do seem to see history repeating itself again--the [Holy] Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak.  These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.

Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself.  It's time for humanity to move on.

[WhiteWings]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.

I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.

I would say: bring the info into this thread. I'll dig up some info when I'm finished posting in another thread

We do seem to see history repeating itself again--the Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak.  These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.

I think there is just one empire that keeps reincarnating. Babylon.

Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself.  It's time for humanity to move on.

We are moving on! New types of weaponry are developed as we speak....

[WhiteWings]

John tells us that "the time is near," even as he wrote in verse 1 saying these events "must shortly come to pass." John's revelation is not something afar off, like the one given in Daniel 12:9 and 13. In fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.

Daniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.

In Daniel 7 the prophet himself received divine revelation of these kingdoms. This time they were pictured as "four great beasts" (Dan. 7:3). The first was a lion with eagle's wings (Babylon's national symbol, as depicted on many of their monuments). The second beast was a bear—representing Media-Persia, with Persia being the stronger of the two, i.e., "raised up on one side." The third beast was a leopard with wings to indicate swiftness—representing the Grecian Empire, whose leader, Alexander the Great, conquered that portion of the world all the way to India. The fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).

Within the prophecy of this iron-toothed beast, a little horn (power) came up, having eyes like a man and "a mouth uttering great boasts" (Dan. 7:8). This is generally recognized as being an extension of the beast with iron teeth—that is, an extension of Rome's power. The futurists view this as a future "Antichrist." The historicists view this as an extension of the Roman power base that arose after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 A.D. In other words, they view it as the Roman Church system itself, which filled the power vacuum with the collapse of Imperial Rome.

The Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D. The little horn was said to come out of this beast, "uttering great boasts." In Revelation 13:5 we are given more details of this little horn, but John writes that this beast had "a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies."

Who is this "little horn" that comes up out of the Roman Empire? The futurist view is that this is a future "Antichrist," and that there was a long "gap" between the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of a new Roman Empire that is somehow distinct from the Roman Catholic Church.

The historicist view is that this revived Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church itself, which ultimately claimed authority over all the nations of the world. Pope Pius IX himself declared in the nineteenth century that the Roman Church was the inheritor of Rome's authority after the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. The pope made this claim after the Italian forces of King Victor Emmanuel united Italy (1870), taking the Papal States and even Rome itself from Vatican control. We read this in R.W. Thompson's book, Footprints of the Jesuits, page 316,

"If Pius IX had been less perturbed, and calm enough to reason logically, he might have observed how fatal to his own conclusion was an important confession made by him in this official allocution. Without seeming to comprehend its full meaning and force, he declared it to be 'a singular arrangement of Divine providence' that the pope 'was invested with his civil authority' at the time of the fall of the Roman Empire; that is, during the latter half of the fifth century, and nearly five hundred years after the beginning of the Christian era. . . . His object was to show that when the Roman Empire fell, the temporal power was divinely added to the spiritual power of the pope, and, therefore, that it would violate the divine law if he were deprived of the crown of temporal royalty, which the popes of the primitive times did not possess."

Whereas Daniel gives us a broad perspective of all four world kingdoms leading up to the (Stone) Kingdom of God, John's Revelation focuses primarily upon the fourth world kingdom (including the "little horn" extension of Rome) and how it will be replaced by the Kingdom of God. Thus, the book of Revelation is more focused and includes greater detail of the past 2,000 years since the rise of the Roman Empire. Rome took control of Judea in 63 B.C., and as we will see later in our study, John's prophecy begins in 31 B.C. just as Rome was being transformed from a Republic to an Empire.

[Molly]

I think there is just one empire that keeps reiincarnating. Babylon.

Yes, I agree.

The head of daniel's horrible man is Babylon.
It's a mind and a system.

I would say: bring teh info into this thread. I'll dig up some info when I'm finished posting in another thread

The problem is, it's complicated.  But, we could try to cover some of it.

We are moving on! New types of weaponry is developed as we speak....

Stop! LOL

I've developed a new word which I use with my friends--humanicide. We got distracted in the last century by the concept of genocide, as if they would limit themselves to one race.  But, all these people seem interested in is new ways to kill and destroy the entire human race.

[WhiteWings]

Humanity isn't a race. It's a state of mind called compassion.
Enough drivel. Gonna watch an ep Sons of Anarchy :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.

I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.

We do seem to see history repeating itself again--the [Holy] Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak.  These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.

Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself.  It's time for humanity to move on.

I know what you mean. I have personally studied just about every popular interpretation of the book of Daniel and revelation and so far I beleive all of them are the incorrect one. Each of them has compelling arguments, yet in each and every case they miss important details that makes thee whole thing collapse. One compelling argument if that of the 7thday adventist. They have one of the most plausible interpretation of the book of revelation, yet I found that it missed some key elements. A lot of the times when these interpratations are spoken they miss those key details and either don't mention them or change it somewhat.

[Molly]

In fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.

Agreed.

Daniel 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.

Yes.  Daniel sees these kingdoms, which are happening in succession, as one man.  Each kingdom is a different body part of that man.

31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. --Dan 2

The fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).

This is the Roman empire, the legs of the terrible form--the last kingdom.  The Roman empire never really went away, and in these last days is rising up again as the feet of the terrible form, part iron and part miry clay--this will be its downfall.

It is the feet [the foundation] of the terrible form that the kingdom of stone will smash, thus taking down the whole thing.

The Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D.

The fight was really between the western church [Rome] and the eastern orthodox church [Constantinople].  Who would have authority over the whole world?  Toward that end, the Roman church sought to exterminate the eastern orthodox church, some of which they did directly, some of which they left to the Ottoman, some of which they tried to finish off in the last century in Russia and the Balkans through mass murder.  This would also include the destruction of the Protestant church in Germany, as the Pope signed a concordant with Hitler, leaving his church the only one with protection.

But, of course, the heart of this is not about churches.  It is about the mind of Babylon and the desire of this beast to stand in the place of Christ and  control the whole world.  It will not succeed, as each kingdom is inferior to the one before.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

--Dan 2