our true nature

[Loveroftruth]

Could it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ". 

But the world still teaches (from birth on) that we are evil, no good, and hence we all eat of a tree that is no longer given authority; and therefore we all go through the shedding of the layers of false belief systems; and our core really is LOVE?

just some things I continue to ponder. 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Morning Seeker...

To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water.  Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.

Wicked is just another metaphor for nakedness bro,..ever notice babies come into the WORLD naked ..even if they Know it or Not

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The womb\BELLY is likened to the MIND..Job 15:35; 32:18-19; Ps 31:9; Pr 22:17-18 ,,BellyJob 32:18-19 ; Pr 26:22 - [0990]; Jn 7:37-38

.The natural Fleshy mind of man is BARREN ,LACKING THE light OF KNOWLEDGE.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck


Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.


Jhn 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Jhn 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Jhn 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.


Jhn 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

The barren Mind to be FILLED :icon_flower:

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Blessings
Taffy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi jch!  Welcome to TM  :welcome:

Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients.  Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies.  Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had.  At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight.  It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant.  Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.

Thanks for posting!  This was an amazing bit of info!  :goodpost:


pEace...  :laughing7:

In JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[Dallas]

Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world. 
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel.  The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind. 
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is.  The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.

Two things...

1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!

2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
    Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!

Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.

Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!

The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done, we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!

[Hennessey]

Morning Seeker...

To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water.  Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.

Wicked is just another metaphor for nakedness bro,..ever notice babies come into the WORLD naked ..even if they Know it or Not

Psa 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The womb\BELLY is likened to the MIND..Job 15:35; 32:18-19; Ps 31:9; Pr 22:17-18 ,,BellyJob 32:18-19 ; Pr 26:22 - [0990]; Jn 7:37-38

.The natural Fleshy mind of man is BARREN ,LACKING THE light OF KNOWLEDGE.

Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck


Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.


Jhn 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Jhn 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Jhn 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 7:37  In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.


Jhn 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

The barren Mind to be FILLED :icon_flower:

Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Gal 4:27  For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Blessings
Taffy

I seem to agree Taffy. We are born into corruption right from the get go. If you have ever gotten up from bed in the middle of the night to feed or comfort your new born you know all that little guy thinks about, is himself. lol

[jchpiper]

Carol

This I believe has merit and IMO is possible wrt to transplants.   If we look at emotions, let's take two

Love - falling in love.
Grief - death of a loved one

Where are these emotions felt? In the gut/chest etc.  They are not felt in the mind.

It is the same as the mysterious sixth sense.

To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water.  Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.

If you study certain small unknown cultures like the bushmen in the Karroo desert in SA, they are so in touch with nature, I do not think they even spank children and they are very environment aware.  There are however hybrids of these bushmen that have mixed it up with western culture and very much like what Paul said about sin only coming through the revelation of the law, can be seen with these hybrids who do pretty much everything the pure bushmen do not.

There is a tribe in South America and they are all naked, men and women.  So for them there does not seem to be a flesh sin problem.

Now of course, we cannot just take our clothes off and go live off the land now can we?  No, we were brought up different, different value systems.  Hence those that have laws have measures to effect those laws.

So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias.  Granted I have cited two exceptions to the rule, yet teaching a bushman about Jesus and even worse Christianity does more harm than good hence the hybrids I spoke of earlier, they stay in the Karroo but in houses and they do as westerners do and they wear westerners clothing.  They tasted of civilisation and it destroyed their culture.  Lucky, some still hold to the old ways.

View some pics of Bushmen here  Note: these are likely not the true ones I am referring to

Blessings

Enjoyed this Bernie, and the photos.  In another life, I'd be a NG photographer and journalist.  Wonder if there will be any positions open in the new heaven and earth?  :winkgrin:

From your post I learned a new anacronym: wrt = with respect to (?).  Yay google!!! 

[jchpiper]

willieH: Hi jch!  Welcome to TM  :welcome:

Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients.  Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies.  Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had.  At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight.  It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant.  Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.

Thanks for posting!  This was an amazing bit of info!  :goodpost:


pEace...  :laughing7:

In JESUS...willieH :gamer:

Thank you for the welcome Willie.   :icon_flower:   :thumbsup:

[jchpiper]

Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world. 
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel.  The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind. 
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is.  The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.

Two things...

1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!

2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
    Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!

Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.

Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!

The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done, we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!

Wow...hmmm....got my attention....   :happy3:

[Taffy]

I seem to agree Taffy. We are born into corruption right from the get go. If you have ever gotten up from bed in the middle of the night to feed or comfort your new born you know all that little guy thinks about, is himself. lol

Hi Jack....we have four( teenagers..two boys and girls...)...nothing changes..well not yet..even now they think very much of themselves..but there learning To UNDERSTAND but only thro EXPERIENCE.....

Blessings
Taffy

[Loveroftruth]

Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world. 
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel.  The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind. 
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is.  The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.

Two things...

1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!

2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
    Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!

Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.

Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!

The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done, we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I believe this is what Amanda, Laren and Seeker where saying summarized  :goodone:

[Taffy]

basically, I question;

are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one

or

are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious). 


If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,

I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue.  Old habits are hard to die. 

Missed this One Laren


I hope i get your understanding Laren..

yes we are moving from one state unto another..

We  are ALL born DEAD bro..( spirtually SPEAKING)...check out willies post..., TRUE Life is HIM and ONLY found in HIM

we move from Death  to life TWO fold....

as is SPOKEN..the DEAD know NOTHING...... life is CHRIST......

Time and Time again Christ uses the pharisees (dead to HIM)  to explain all this

The pharisees are a PRIME example of the FLESH off US ALL...DEAD to HIM.


DEATH is painful spiritually speaking..we move FROM as scripture speaks from a ChilD\BABE\SLAVE ( as one under LAW and death to a SON\HEIR born IN HIM..........

FOR MINE This is what this says...being BORN AGAIN


Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

JOY........... laren is a Metaphor FOR CHRIST..AN HOUR is an APPOINTED time which comes to all men..as a THEIF in the ( DARKNESSof NIGHT)

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world

paul himself became ALL things( christ for mine) for all people suffering their pain and anguish WITH them as they moved FROM age to age...

l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

to those in DARKNESS and those IN THE LIGHT...


got to see these sciptures bro wid them spirItual EYES.... 


1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God. 

all made POSSIBLE by the CROSS :icon_flower:

BLESSINGS BRO

[laren]

basically, I question;

are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one

or

are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious). 


If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,

I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue.  Old habits are hard to die. 

Missed this One Laren


I hope i get your understanding Laren..

yes we are moving from one state unto another..

We  are ALL born DEAD bro..( spirtually SPEAKING)...check out willies post..., TRUE Life is HIM and ONLY found in HIM

we move from Death  to life TWO fold....

as is SPOKEN..the DEAD know NOTHING...... life is CHRIST......

Time and Time again Christ uses the pharisees (dead to HIM)  to explain all this

The pharisees are a PRIME example of the FLESH off US ALL...DEAD to HIM.


DEATH is painful spiritually speaking..we move FROM as scripture speaks from a ChilD\BABE\SLAVE ( as one under LAW and death to a SON\HEIR born IN HIM..........

FOR MINE This is what this says...being BORN AGAIN


Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

JOY........... laren is a Metaphor FOR CHRIST..AN HOUR is an APPOINTED time which comes to all men..as a THEIF in the ( DARKNESSof NIGHT)

Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world

paul himself became ALL things( christ for mine) for all people suffering their pain and anguish WITH them as they moved FROM age to age...

l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

to those in DARKNESS and those IN THE LIGHT...


got to see these sciptures bro wid them spirItual EYES.... 


1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God. 

all made POSSIBLE by the CROSS :icon_flower:

BLESSINGS BRO

Thanks Graham for the reply. 

So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Taffy]

Paul says it all here FOR mine laren...

LETTING go  of ONES  conditioning is NEVER easy...........and neither is the PAIN of CHILDBIRTH

Others trials become ours as with PAUL..we suffer WITH them


l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Blessings
TAFFY

[firstborn888]

So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 

That's why I never use that passage for NT believers

Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."

The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.

As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn  disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
  blessings,
  Byron

[jchpiper]

So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 

That's why I never use that passage for NT believers

Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."

The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.

As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn  disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
  blessings,
  Byron

Hmmmm......Christ said we are to become like little children , didn't he? It seems the context was regarding malice?  I'm going on memory....so my context might be wrong.

I've worked with children in daycares for years, and I think I'd disagree byron... on the born selfish part.   :-)  Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics.  :dontknow:  Is it selfishness a child exhibits, or is it a need, a need to be held, to be loved, to be nourished, to be respected?  A baby's "job" is survival.  But is that selfishness?  It seems  selfishness is a willful act and survival an instinct?

Is born "good" and born "innocent" the same thing?  Again, semantics.... :sigh:

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just thinking out loud.   :2c:

The "selfishness" bit could be me projecting some of my personal negative experience with that word.  For me, I can not work with children thinking of them as selfish.  When I approach them (toddlers) with respect, listening to them, and with the attitude that they want to do right, that they have a need for  boundaries and love, obedience seems to come easier.  Not all the time....but most of the time.  Four-year olds and I get along great.  I love those little guys and gals; they melt my heart. :girlheart: 


(edit addition) btw:  some people probably do think I come from another planet...at times... :winkgrin:

Blessings!
~carol

PS:  Gabrielle is a cutie.   :icon_flower:  (Apologies if I misspelled her name..  :mblush:)

[laren]

So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 

That's why I never use that passage for NT believers

Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."

The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.

As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn  disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
  blessings,
  Byron

So here's my thinking.  We are created perfect.  Perfectly loved, adored by the Father.  The hardened heart, deceitful heart is all of our perception.  A construct of our own mind.  We die, seperate ourselves from God when we seek righteousness other than through faith in LOVE.  God's view of us never changes.  He has always 100 percent accepted us.  

Coming to a place of being tired of seeking God's approval through self works, we come to a point of trust in Christ.  This changes our perceptions of ourselves.  It brings us back to LOVE, it does not change God's view of us, but our view of God.  We realize all along we are adored.

The finished work of the cross, imo; revealed this.  While we are living a life of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are still perfect, still adored.  We just don't realize it, until we come home.  Notice it's the prodigal son who returns to the Father, not the other way around.  He was adored before leaving, adored during his false perceptions/beliefs on how to obtain peace (eating slop), and adored on his return.

So, to me; God's plan is to reveal to us we are accepted, we are cherished, we are HIS perfect creation.  When the layers of of "crap" come off, we find out we don't need to be ashamed, we don't need to fear, we are his cherished child.  

this to me, has been very freeing.  To see who I am, loved and adored, allows me to look at others the same way.  seeing others for who they are, not for there false beliefs about themselves.  

Hope this makes sense.  Lord, open my eyes if I am wrong.  But I just am so tired of the teaching that we are crap at the get go.  I believe the cross reveals that we arent'.

We aren't crap, we've just failed to believe in LOVE.  

jmo

Laren

[firstborn888]

I've worked with children in daycares for years, and I think I'd disagree byron... on the born selfish part.   :-)  Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics.  :dontknow:  Is it selfishness a child exhibits, or is it a need, a need to be held, to be loved, to be nourished, to be respected?  A baby's "job" is survival.  But is that selfishness?  It seems  selfishness is a willful act and survival an instinct?

Yes, thay are born programmed to have their own needs met first, and not just for survival. Screaming "MY TOY! MY TOY!" while grabbing it from the other 1 year old comes to mind.

Is born "good" and born "innocent" the same thing?  Again, semantics.... :sigh:

Absolutely they are innocent, just doing what they are pre-programmed to do. No willful malice or intent.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just thinking out loud.   :2c:

Stop thinking so loud!  :happygrin:

The "selfishness" bit could be me projecting some of my personal negative experience with that word.  For me, I can not work with children thinking of them as selfish.  When I approach them (toddlers) with respect, listening to them, and with the attitude that they want to do right, that they have a need for  boundaries and love, obedience seems to come easier.  Not all the time....but most of the time.  Four-year olds and I get along great.  I love those little guys and gals; they melt my heart. :girlheart: 

And they obviously melted Jesus' heart as well...

Selfishness seems negative in a way, but it's really just a starting point for a long journey into agape selflessness. So the starting line isn't 'evil' in itself. It only becomes evil if you sit down on it and stay there.

PS:  Gabrielle is a cutie.   :icon_flower:  (Apologies if I misspelled her name..  :mblush:)

Yes, that selfish little perfect creature!

God's view of us never changes.  He has always 100 percent accepted us.

BINGO! :2thumbs:

While we are living a life of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are still perfect, still adored.  We just don't realize it, until we come home.  Notice it's the prodigal son who returns to the Father, not the other way around.  He was adored before leaving, adored during his false perceptions/beliefs on how to obtain peace (eating slop), and adored on his return.

BINGO! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
That's exactly what I'm saying - we are born eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 

So, to me; God's plan is to reveal to us we are accepted, we are cherished, we are HIS perfect creation.  When the layers of of "crap" come off, we find out we don't need to be ashamed, we don't need to fear, we are his cherished child.  

this to me, has been very freeing.  To see who I am, loved and adored, allows me to look at others the same way.  seeing others for who they are, not for there false beliefs about themselves.

BINGO! BINGO! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Hope this makes sense.  Lord, open my eyes if I am wrong.  But I just am so tired of the teaching that we are crap at the get go.  I believe the cross reveals that we arent'. We aren't crap, we've just failed to believe in LOVE.  

I think you guys are on the money here. My only contention is that I don't think humans have to 'learn' evil. We inherited the fruit of that DNA in our flesh. The scripture says that the death Adam received passed upon all men. 

The Calvinists teach a thing called 'total depravity' ('tis the T in the TULIP), that is, in humans there is no good thing at all. Paul specified that in his 'flesh' there was no good thing, not that in his entire being there was no good thing.

   blessings,
    - byron   

[SeekerSA]

The Calvinists teach a thing called 'total depravity' ('tis the T in the TULIP), that is, in humans there is no good thing at all. Paul specified that in his 'flesh' there was no good thing, not that in his entire being there was no good thing.

I would go further to interpret the no good in the flesh is by comparison to Jesus.  He was the perfect Man.

Going back to the two tribes I mentioned, there are traits within those two cultures that disprove much of what we Westerners hold to.

I guess when you can see yourself as God sees you like a parent with unconditional love, then you can start to see the good in everybody.  Their faults become pale by comparison.

I think we all suffer a bit of the victim mentality as proffered by the mainstream.

For God so loved the world didn't know what else to do that He sent His only begotten Son (as a last resort) so that whosoever believes in Him may just maybe will get eternal life.

Is that not how we have been taught?

[Cardinal]

Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients.  Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies.  Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had.  At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight.  It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant.  Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.    So I hope my sharing doesn't offend anyone here.

:cloud9: I have heard of that happening. I know it's a touchy subject, but for me, that's why I don't agree with donor transplants. If you have one, you are taking on the generational curses of the donor as well. Being joined flesh to flesh in any way without the Lord's direction, has the same result. He didn't just make up these "rules" for no reason. He knew the end result would strengthen the bands.

He would not let me put donor on my driver's license for another reason, as well. He said it was making a covenant with death. I'm not agreeing to die; I'm agreeing that He is going to swallow up my corruption.

And as a natural deterrent, I worked with a woman who used to work for a hospital, dealing with those things. She told me that if someone came in that was very badly injured, if they were a donor, they were less likely to try to save that person, because they wanted their organs. It makes sense that there would arise a wrong motive in there somewhere, considering the thoughts of unregenerate man are corrupt, and the love of money is the root of all evil. Blessings.....

[Redlettervoice]

This is what I understand on the subject. And I sure don't understand it all.  But this
makes sense to me.  Doctors know about DNA.  They trust it.  They prove or disprove
crimes based on it.  "That" DNA is taken from the "natural" blood!  Or cells, or whatever
is on the "human."  It possibly could be "tampered" with by organ donors...for either good
or bad. 

But there is another DNA...........to obtain it's unfurling within you, you MUST be "born
again." Man is born with a "world" in his heart, Solomon said, that NEEDS saving!
We are "being" born again, and as we are "being" born again, this DNA of the
"spiritual SECOND Man" the very Lord from Heaven as 1st Cor 15 calls him, is "unfurled"
for our consciousness to see.  .  . "as" we walk in the Light He has "given" us, more LIGHT,
or MORe of HIS DNA is "unfurled".........from the beginning, God placed the cheribums
and a "flaming sword" to keep the WAY "WAY" of the Tree of LIFE!  The "WAY" is not
just any ole WAY, but is following HIM and HE is "personal" to each of us. I don't know about you, but
I know when He is dealing with ME and what He asks of ME might not be what He asks of
you, but it "unfurls" more of HIM as I walk in that Light, and bear my own cross, fellowshipping in HIS sufferings!   Now, He showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.  And to shake it off, He shakes!  It is not easy to go
thru the shakings!  Or the chastisments......but the end result is that we become partakers
in the Divine Nature.  If we study about the two witnesses, we can see them being killed
in the street where He was crucified, but at the end, they rose in the very sight of those
enemies that had killed them.  I believe that for the Word and Spirit that they were following, becoming partakers in the sufferings of Christ, did and does not end with
their death in the street.  But in their ascension.........out of it!  His Spiritual DNA unfurling
as a REWARD for having suffered with HIM.  I can't say that "I" have the remote control,
but I believe He does!

We are the product of HIS Hands, He it is that hath made us, and
NOT we ourselves.

Frankly, I have "no" confidence in the flesh, and the "good" thing
that is in us that we are to acknowledge is HIM, not "we" ourselves!

Most people that
have followed HIM into His death, look like it, til they are resurrected! Paul wrote "I bear
the marks in my body!" "Henceforth let no man trouble me, etc."  And if you know
me, said Jesus, in the fellowship of my sufferings, ye shall also reign with me in GLORY!

Some things do NOT happen til the TIME appointed of the Father!

[Loveroftruth]

Red wrote

He showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.

What did the second man look like  :dontknow:

:girlheart:

[Redlettervoice]

Red wrote

He showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.

What did the second man look like  :dontknow:

:girlheart:

Well, sweetheart, he is a "heavenly" being. What I see as the IMAGE that we shall bear
is a "heavely being."  He is not seen with natural eyes....I don't think.
He rides on the wings of the wind!  I saw His traits once in a dream
when I observed a natural
man on the earth in chaos, and He reached a long arm from the heavens to the earth
and stilled that man!  ONLY God can do that.  Just think: as we have borne the IMAGE
of the earthy man, so "shall we" bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly!  I suppose He could
be whatever He wanted to be, He is made in the IMAGE of God!  Heavenly! I think the
heavenly man moves in Secret places.....sometimes He appeared to a few in the Bible,
to witnesses chosen.  What did He look like to them?  There are instances where He
showed Himself and not all say exactly the same manifestion, to me, anyway, but what
I am talking about is a "heavenly" being!

[Loveroftruth]

Hey Red,
Thanks for sharing  :mfriends: That was wonderful to read :HeartThrob:

you said this

I think the
heavenly man moves in Secret places.....sometimes He appeared to a few in the Bible,
to witnesses chosen.  What did He look like to them?  There are instances where He
showed Himself and not all say exactly the same manifestion, to me, anyway, but what
I am talking about is a "heavenly" being!

What do you mean by this?

[Redlettervoice]

I guess I meant like in dreams.......

I sent you a message.

[Molly]

Red wrote

He showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.

What did the second man look like  :dontknow:

:girlheart:

I can tell you what he looks like to me.  He tells the truth.  No matter what the consequences are to him, he stands up and tells the truth.

Any idea how rare that is?  But, I see him now everywhere, telling the truth.

But, before you can tell the truth, and before you can recognize the truth, you first have to know it yourself.