The Revealing of Jesus Christ

[willieH]

willieH: Hi John...  :thumbsup:

To add to Red's question, Willie said that all are partaker of the second death. Does this mean that you do not believe that there will be a generation of Overcomers that will overcome this second death and just be changed in a twinkling of an eye without tasting this second death?

John

There (to my knowledge) is no Scripture which states that ANYONE shall escape the 2nd Death...  The Scriptures state that the OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall not be HURT of it (Rev 3:11), but does NOT SAY... that those OVERCOMERS (In CHRIST) shall escape the 2nd Death...

It is the FIRST death which is OVERCOME in this LIFE... by becoming IN CHRIST within THIS LIFE... not all shall become IN CHRIST, in this life...

All DIE the 2nd DEATH... which is PHYSICAL DEATH...  :nod:

Peace...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH :gamer:

Willie,

Don't these verses speak of a generation of Ovecomers that will overcome the second death by being changed into their immortal bodies without going the way of death?

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul is speaking of ones who SLEEP ...# 2837/Strongs - KOIMAO = be DEAD same word is used in 1 Thess 4:14... and is saying that SLEEP (Death) shall not continue... but be REMOVED...

John, even JESUS died and was DEAD 3 days and 3 nights... He was RAISED from the PHYSICAL death He died...  We shall ALL follow Him into that DEATH, and later follow Him into the RESURRECTION from that "2nd Death"...

CHRIST tasted SPIRITUAL Death for us (the portion of the each "LUMP" which are the vessels of HONOR)...

The PHYSICAL...  The FLESH and BLOOD of which we all are, must DIE, and return to the Earth as YHVH said it would... (the portion of each "LUMP" which are the vessels of DISHONOR) (Gen 3:19)

These verses above do NOT mention the 2nd Death... they refer to the RESURRECTION of the PHYSICALLY DEAD... which will INVOLVE ALL MEN...

At the LAST DAY... (which has NOT YET occured, ...for DAYS continue do they not?)... CHRIST promises RESURRECTION (John 6:44)

As I previously noted, there is no Scripture (to my knowledge) which notes that ANY shall escape involvment in the 2nd Death...

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev 2:11) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Before one BELIEVES he/she is an UNBELIEVER... this is true of ALL HUMANITY since the first TWO... being an UNBELIEVER qualifies that one to the Lake of Fire... which I percieve to be Here and NOW...

The list mentioned in Rev 21:8... pretty much names ALL humanity... under one or several of these categories:   

Who has not believed?  Been FEARFUL?  Done something abominable?  Lied? Been led to believe in other things aside from YHVH?  Idolators? (see movie stars, entertainers, atheletes, even the girl next door) Sorcerers (root word meaning DRUGS)? Whoremongers - fornicators (spiritual/physical)?  Murderers (CHRIST even named anger with a brother to be named as such)

The writings on the wall bro... we can see it or no... but we are here IN IT... the LAKE of FIRE...  :mshock:

pEAce...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH   :gamer:

[bobf]

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Hey Willie,

As I see it Revelation 20:14 says [1] but not [2].

[1] 2nd death = death and hades cast into the lake of fire
[2] 2nd death = death and hades

In other words it appears to me that Rev 20:14 says that the second death is a consuming process which wipes out death and hades.

God bless,
Bob

[Craig]

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Hey Willie,

As I see it Revelation 20:14 says [1] but not [2].

[1] 2nd death = death and hades cast into the lake of fire
[2] 2nd death = death and hades

In other words it appears to me that Rev 20:14 says that the second death is a consuming process which wipes out death and hades.

God bless,
Bob

And the names of the cowardly, unbelieving, murderer, sorcerer, and all liars.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Bob...  :winkgrin:

The verses that mention it, do not denote OVERCOMERS disinvolved... only that the 2nd death has no power over them (Rev 20:6) ... that they will not be HURT of it (Rev ) and that the GRAVE and DEATH are the 2nd death (Rev 20:14) ...And that all UNBELIEVERS shall have their part in it (Rev 21:8)

Hey Willie,

As I see it Revelation 20:14 says [1] but not [2].

[1] 2nd death = death and hades cast into the lake of fire
[2] 2nd death = death and hades

In other words it appears to me that Rev 20:14 says that the second death is a consuming process which wipes out death and hades.

God bless,
Bob

I think you are correct... for JESUS came into THIS SCENARIO and DIED (death), then was buried (entombed/grave)... and OVERCAME both by His Resurrection...

Thanks for the correction Bob... I intended to say what you noted...

My point is that THIS is the Lake of Fire... and it is IN THIS SCENARIO that ALL are being TRIED... the "fire" is the trials of sorrows and sufferings, in which process, we join our Savior...

In Heb 2:10 it notes that THROUGH SUFFERINGS was JESUS made PERFECT (complete)...  SUFFERING is and INTEGRAL part of the processing of the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL... and GOD travels through, and JOINED US in that suffering via the life of His Son...

pEAce...   :2c:

In  JESUS...willieH   :gamer:

[bobf]

And the names of the cowardly, unbelieving, murderer, sorcerer, and all liars.

What exactly does it mean to wipe out a name, or for that matter to receive a new name?  Does a name represent a spirit, a way of being and thinking?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Are "seed" and the "name" two ways of saying the same thing?

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name.

Is this one person at two different times or two separate sets of people?

[squint]

Deuteronomy 8:3
He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

Men will live by EVERY WORD of God.  If you have found "death" or "torture" for your fellow man by Gods Word, then you have not yet eaten the Bread of Life that is for all and unto ALL, today and forever.

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

[Taffy]

Deuteronomy 8:3
He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

Men will live by EVERY WORD of God.  If you have found "death" or "torture" for your fellow man by Gods Word, then you have not yet eaten the Bread of Life that is for all and unto ALL, today and forever.

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

I see a physical and spiritual difference with the above..

The literal word to be Lived by UNDER the OLD COVENANT

Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in(by) them.

We know the WORD of God IS CHRIST and HIS WORDS are SPIRIT

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 


(Jhn 14:23 - 1Cr 14:19)
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you

could these just be the WORD\WORDS of faith which we live by?

seems Paul Lived by THIS WORD OF FAITH in his heart

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;



1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



contrary to those who are yet to have their eyes \eyes and Heart OPENED

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Isa 35:1  The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.


Isa 35:2  It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God.


Isa 35:3  Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.


Isa 35:4  Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you.


Isa 35:5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.


Isa 35:6  Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
 
For mine the WICKED is HE who sits  on GODS Throne until Christ is Revealed


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Blessings
Taffy

[pneuma]

I see a physical and spiritual difference with the above..

The literal word to be Lived by UNDER the OLD COVENANT

Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in(by) them.

We know the WORD of God IS CHRIST and HIS WORDS are SPIRIT

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. 


(Jhn 14:23 - 1Cr 14:19)
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you

could these just be the WORD\WORDS of faith which we live by?

seems Paul Lived by THIS WORD OF FAITH in his heart

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.



contrary to those who are yet to have their eyes \eyes and Heart OPENED

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.


Isa 35:2  It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God.


Isa 35:3  Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees.


Isa 35:4  Say to them [that are] of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come [with] vengeance, [even] God [with] a recompence; he will come and save you.


Isa 35:5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.


Isa 35:6  Then shall the lame [man] leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
 
For mine the WICKED is HE who sits  on GODS Throne until Christ is Revealed


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Blessings
Taffy

:thumbsup:

[Craig]

And the names of the cowardly, unbelieving, murderer, sorcerer, and all liars.

What exactly does it mean to wipe out a name, or for that matter to receive a new name?  Does a name represent a spirit, a way of being and thinking?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Are "seed" and the "name" two ways of saying the same thing?

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name.

Is this one person at two different times or two separate sets of people?

If you want to understand Revelation, everything spoken within it, already happened 2000 years ago. The names of those who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, is the names of any nation, any people, any individual, but more specifically John was talking about Judah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple.

Because some UR movement that believes and teaches that everyone is in the Lake of Fire regardless if the believe, this knowledge will take a while before people begin to realize. The realization that the Lake of Fire has no relevance to the people who trust in Christ Jesus, they don't even walk in that judgment nor do they even face it or even have one part in it.

[noreputation]

It is my understanding the book of Revelation has two interpretations.  For those who were alive just prior to 70 AD some of Revelation foretold events that were about to come to pass in a very literal way.  This tied in with what Jesus told his followers in Matthew chapter 24 about the impending doom that was to come upon THAT GENERATION.

Also hidden in the pages of this much misunderstood book is a revealing of the life of God in his people with the various stages of development.  Often our journey to know Him begins as an external exercise filled with pomp and circumstance.  We view the life of being a follower of God as something we do.  After being baptized in the Holy Spirit, when the power to be witnesses comes upon us, we continue this outward way of thinking, as we forge ahead taking new ground for the Kingdom of God.  At this point of development how little do we see that while we are so busy building God's Kingdom that underneath it all we are also building our kingdom.

It is here we find our Lord standing at the door knocking wanting to come in.  Do you recall when your view of the Kingdom of God was some far away place?  Have you ever heard someone standing up in the front of a Christian gathering say, "Isn't it good to be in the house of the Lord today?"  Or how about someone looking up to the sky while they praise God like He is up yonder somewhere?  We have all been there and in the midst of our activity the Spirit of God is knocking, wanting to come in and sup with us.

Little by little we let Him in and we begin to recognize the Kingdom within.  It is here that the Holy Spirit reveals the Antichrist, the false prophet and the beast nature within us that has blinded us and kept our experience with God as an external exercise of wielding our sword in the name of Jesus, much like Peter did when he cut of the servant of the high priest's ear.  It is here that war breaks out in heaven as Satan is cast down to earth. The mixture that was once allowed in us comes under the judgment of God as He cleanses us and brings us through great tribulation, for the beast nature will not go without a fight!  Ah, but if we overcome we will find ourselves as a pillar in the temple that God is making, the house not made with hands, the city of God where there is no more night.

There is place of ministry that awaits us.  Not like the realm of Pentecost where the power is upon us, but a place where the life within will spill out of us upon this earth.
As we learn to drink from the life spring within us our roots will grow deep, as plantings of the Lord, trees of righteousness, our leaves will heal the nations.  It is here we recognize that the Kingdom of God does not come with observation, but is a progressive revelation as His life within us rises up as the bright morning star, dispelling the darkness of the carnal mind that has held us in bondage throughout this age. This is the path God has called us to.  It is the revealing of His life in His sons and there will come a time as we continue to enter the age that is upon us when this life will manifest and spill out upon the earth until God is All in All.

I see so clearly that the Kingdom does not come with observation, but is a progressive experience as we mature and overcome.  Yet, I also realize that we are at the close of one age and the beginning of another.  It is this age that is upon us where I believe we will see the rock cut out of the side of the mountain become a great mountain that will fill the earth.

Douglas B. Clark

 

[Zach]

I understand that there are some advantages for the premillenialist and full preterist positions, when attempting a universalistic interpretation of the Bible. The advantage for the premillenialist is that it clearly shows that there are more than two ages to come (relevant, of course, to the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), and the advantage for the full preterist is, of course, that various texts in Revelation (and potentially, elsewhere) can be interpreted as prophecies about earthly, first-century events. Obviously one shouldn't read an eschatology into the Bible simply because it fits well with universalism, however. What I'm curious about is how the other eschatological positions work with universalism. Can anyone shed some light?

[Michele]

Hey Zach :bigGrin:....I think that the ideas each of us have about eschatology have a lot to do with how we perceive time.  We were discussing this on another thread...about time not being linear in the way we perceive it.

What happens if time is spherical.....or if it resembles the flow of the water in a river?  We know that Christ is Living Water.  Now, to explain this in a symbolic way -- much of the water stays flowing down the river of life, and all through this flow process there is continually some water that ends up evaporating to the heavens (the clouds).  In my opinion this symbolizes the Son lifting us up (at our own proper time) to heaven.  It's a process that never seems to end......it's perpetual.

There are many references in relation to us and water in the scripture.  They talk about our life being a vapor, and also mention a cloud of witnesses.

Anyway, what are your thoughts Zach? :icon_flower:

[firstborn888]

There's a ton of interest with me as well. I've just started preterist study and though I've always known a lot of revelation was already fulfilled I never heard a serious case till now that the second coming had already occured (except back in the 80's when this guy told me Jesus had returned for sure - 'cuz he had seen Him in the back of a pickup truck in the Arizona desert  :mshock:)

Seriously though, since I'm active in leading people out of tradition, I've got to discover the bottom line on all this eschatology stuff!


- byron

[Chris]

There are only two "men" in scripture right? The FIRST Adam (the natural man) and the LAST ADAM (the spiritual man).

First death = the death that was wrought through the first man/Adam (dead in sin).

Second death = the death of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (the second man / last Adam) through which comes LIFE (the resurrection of the dead).

Something like that ???? :JCThink:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Chris...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

First death = SPIRIT... men die in spirit when we sin... CHRIST died TO REDEEM us from this death, and tasted DEATH for us in this capacity... (Heb 2:9) He did NOT taste PHYSICAL death for us... we do this ourselves in the...

Second death = PHYSICAL... men die this death, it is the WAGES of SIN.  WE DIE it for ourselves.  WE are APPOINTED to die this death ourselves (Heb 9:27)... (return to the earth - our seed dies awaiting RESURRECTION - Gen 3:19) 

sHaLOm  :icon_king:

In  JESUS...willieH  :cloud9:

[Chris]

willieH: Hi Chris...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

First death = SPIRIT... men die in spirit when we sin... CHRIST died TO REDEEM us from this death, and tasted DEATH for us in this capacity... (Heb 2:9) He did NOT taste PHYSICAL death for us... we do this ourselves in the...

Second death = PHYSICAL... men die this death, it is the WAGES of SIN.  WE DIE it for ourselves.  WE are APPOINTED to die this death ourselves (Heb 9:27)... (return to the earth - our seed dies awaiting RESURRECTION - Gen 3:19) 

sHaLOm  :icon_king:

In  JESUS...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Wilie H.  :hiya:

So you are saying that PHYSICAL death is the wage of sin?

I'd have to disagree.  :wink1:  As I see it, man was never immortal, but he suffered the wage of sin ("death", spiritual) through Adam's transgression. This (being "dead" in sin, having "no life" in us), to me, is the wage of sin.

Those who overcome ARE NOT HURT by the second death. What man is "hurt" by physical death?

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So if you are saying that the second death = physical death, then you are saying that death and hell being cast into the lake of fire = physical death? That the lake of fire = physical death?

I am not seeing that connection.

I just started looking at some of this last night, trying to look at how it is "appointed unto men, ONCE to die" in relation to "the second death" and the fact that one can be "twice dead" (plucked up from the roots). To me it all seems to tie back to the cross and the death of Jesus Christ (the second man and last Adam). Just beginning the study it, though, so I can't comment on it too much right now; but it's been nagging my mind for a few days now.  :grin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

willieH: Hi Chris...  :welcome: to Tentmaker! :hithere:

First death = SPIRIT... men die in spirit when we sin... CHRIST died TO REDEEM us from this death, and tasted DEATH for us in this capacity... (Heb 2:9) He did NOT taste PHYSICAL death for us... we do this ourselves in the...

Second death = PHYSICAL... men die this death, it is the WAGES of SIN.  WE DIE it for ourselves.  WE are APPOINTED to die this death ourselves (Heb 9:27)... (return to the earth - our seed dies awaiting RESURRECTION - Gen 3:19) 

sHaLOm  :icon_king:

In  JESUS...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Wilie H.  :hiya:

So you are saying that PHYSICAL death is the wage of sin?

Let me say that I stand partially corrected...

DEATH is the WAGE of SIN...

The DEATH which CHRIST died was a "wage" which was paid for REDEMPTION of the vessel of HONOR in each one, and was on behalf of the FIRST DEATH which each man dies, in the SPIRIT...

MAN is APPOINTED Once to die(for Himself) (Heb 9:27) and it is the 2nd DEATH which HE dies... (for the 1st death is in Spirit and CHRIST tasted this death FOR each man)...  This is also a "wage" which is required at the hand of SIN, and is the DEATH of the CARNAL (vessel of DISHONOR)...

I'd have to disagree.  :wink1:

It's okay to disagree bro...  :happygrin:

As I see it, man was never immortal, but he suffered the wage of sin ("death", spiritual) through Adam's transgression. This (being "dead" in sin, having "no life" in us), to me, is the wage of sin.

Okay Chris... now I'm going to have to "disagree"  :wink1:

You say above that man was "never" immortal... I agree, that in the realm of TIME man has not been in an IMMORTAL state, for it is in the REALM of TIME that ALL DEATH has occured... No DEATH has happened or ever will happen in REALM of ETERNITY... and God so notes this:  (Rev 21:4)

The only "MORTALITY" that has been, is completely found in the REALM of TIME...

So concerning the REALM of TIME, I agree man is "never" IMMORTAL... however he IS IMMORTAL both preceeding his entry into time, and after his exit FROM IT...

Those who overcome ARE NOT HURT by the second death. What man is "hurt" by physical death?

Those which take UNFORGIVEN SIN to the grave of THIS LIFE... shall bring it in NAKEDNESS and SHAME (as Did Adam & Eve upon sinning in the Garden)... the "HURT" is the APPEARANCE of these before ALL, especially GOD and the Lamb... (Rev 14:10) this shame and nakedness is TORMENTING as also noted in the experience of the REVELATION of the SIN Adam & Eve...

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

DEATH and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... this IS the LAKE of FIRE... DEATH and "hell" (which is actually GRAVE/Hades) are a prevalent part of THIS LIFE Chris...

Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This list is one that can be applied to EVERY human being... JESUS CHRIST is the TRUTH, all have fallen short (in opposition) to that TRUTH, and therefore are LIARS... Paul notes this in Rom 3:4  Let's take the list one by one:

1. SORCERERS: The word "sorcerers" is the Greek word Pharmakeus from which is derived DRUGS and PHARMACY...
2.  IDOLOTRY...anything that is HELD above the WILL of YHVH is IDOLOTRY... just our sin alone is idolotry... but people find many other instances to practice this in everyday life... Idolizing TV, MOVIE, MUSIC personalities, even ones own CHILDREN too highly esteemed finds its way into this category... moving on...
3. MURDERERS:  JESUS said that even to be angry with your brother without just cause is the commitment of this... just about everyone has had this occurence in life... jumping to conclusions, and thereby hating or holding anger on false foundations...
4. WHOREMONGERS  Pretty much is LUST of the FLESH in sexuality... anyone that denies this has happened in their life at one time or another, simply verifies #1 on this list...
5. ABOMINABLE: This word means DETEST or ABHOR... which applies to ALL that SIN... the only HUMAN this word does not fit was CHRIST...

The lake which burns with FIRE ...and... BRIMSTONE... is the LIFE we are amidst... Brimstone is a PURIFYING agent...

It also is noted that CHRIST's trials were in THIS LIFE... and HE is the GOLD tried in FIRE (Rev 3:18)

So if you are saying that the second death = physical death, then you are saying that death and hell being cast into the lake of fire = physical death? That the lake of fire = physical death?

The LAKE of FIRE = THIS LIFE... and all within it...

DEATH and HELL were not the ONLY things cast into the LAKE... the list above names all the applicants... DEATH was destroyed (in ETERNAL terms) at the CROSS of CHRIST...

ALL DEATH (in ANY FORM, spiritual or physical), has been prevalent ONLY in the REALM of TIME...

The verse you quote above... I believe can be read as follows...  This is the 2nd death... DEATH [in all forms] and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... [bracket comments are mine]

I am not seeing that connection.

I just started looking at some of this last night, trying to look at how it is "appointed unto men, ONCE to die" in relation to "the second death" and the fact that one can be "twice dead" (plucked up from the roots). To me it all seems to tie back to the cross and the death of Jesus Christ (the second man and last Adam). Just beginning the study it, though, so I can't comment on it too much right now; but it's been nagging my mind for a few days now.  :grin:

Keep studying brother... things come at the  decision of God, whilst we are amidst our searching...  :happygrin:

Peace brother...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH  :gamer:

[Chris]

Let me say that I stand partially corrected...

DEATH is the WAGE of SIN...

The DEATH which CHRIST died was a "wage" which was paid for REDEMPTION of the vessel of HONOR in each one, and was on behalf of the FIRST DEATH which each man dies, in the SPIRIT...

MAN is APPOINTED Once to die(for Himself) (Heb 9:27) and it is the 2nd DEATH which HE dies... (for the 1st death is in Spirit and CHRIST tasted this death FOR each man)...  This is also a "wage" which is required at the hand of SIN, and is the DEATH of the CARNAL (vessel of DISHONOR)...

Hi again,

I think you are losing me. At least I am confused by your response, so maybe I am not understanding exactly what you are saying? :mblush:

Are we in agreement that the wage of sin is (spiritual) death (ie being "dead" in sin)?

It's okay to disagree bro...  :happygrin:

:thumbsup:

Okay Chris... now I'm going to have to "disagree"  :wink1:

You say above that man was "never" immortal... I agree, that in the realm of TIME man has not been in an IMMORTAL state, for it is in the REALM of TIME that ALL DEATH has occured... No DEATH has happened or ever will happen in REALM of ETERNITY... and God so notes this:  (Rev 21:4)

The only "MORTALITY" that has been, is completely found in the REALM of TIME...

So concerning the REALM of TIME, I agree man is "never" IMMORTAL... however he IS IMMORTAL both preceeding his entry into time, and after his exit FROM IT...

I was referring to this world and time when I said man is not immortal. I said that because many believe that Adam and Eve were immortal until they sinned, that the death that they suffered due to sin was physical death. I wasn't sure whether or not that was what you were saying since you seemed (my mistake?) to be saying that the wage of sin is physical death.

Those which take UNFORGIVEN SIN to the grave of THIS LIFE... shall bring it in NAKEDNESS and SHAME (as Did Adam & Eve upon sinning in the Garden)... the "HURT" is the APPEARANCE of these before ALL, especially GOD and the Lamb... (Rev 14:10) this shame and nakedness is TORMENTING as also noted in the experience of the REVELATION of the SIN Adam & Eve...

OK.

DEATH and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... this IS the LAKE of FIRE... DEATH and "hell" (which is actually GRAVE/Hades) are a prevalent part of THIS LIFE Chris...

We do not disagree on this. That is why your response confuses me. I also see the lake of fire as taking place now, in this life.

This list is one that can be applied to EVERY human being... JESUS CHRIST is the TRUTH, all have fallen short (in opposition) to that TRUTH, and therefore are LIARS... Paul notes this in Rom 3:4  Let's take the list one by one:

1. SORCERERS: The word "sorcerers" is the Greek word Pharmakeus from which is derived DRUGS and PHARMACY...
2.  IDOLOTRY...anything that is HELD above the WILL of YHVH is IDOLOTRY... just our sin alone is idolotry... but people find many other instances to practice this in everyday life... Idolizing TV, MOVIE, MUSIC personalities, even ones own CHILDREN too highly esteemed finds its way into this category... moving on...
3. MURDERERS:  JESUS said that even to be angry with your brother without just cause is the commitment of this... just about everyone has had this occurence in life... jumping to conclusions, and thereby hating or holding anger on false foundations...
4. WHOREMONGERS  Pretty much is LUST of the FLESH in sexuality... anyone that denies this has happened in their life at one time or another, simply verifies #1 on this list...
5. ABOMINABLE: This word means DETEST or ABHOR... which applies to ALL that SIN... the only HUMAN this word does not fit was CHRIST...

Agreed.  :happygrin:

The lake which burns with FIRE ...and... BRIMSTONE... is the LIFE we are amidst... Brimstone is a PURIFYING agent...

I agree.  :winkgrin:

The LAKE of FIRE = THIS LIFE... and all within it...

And here is where I am getting confused.  :happygrin:

IF... the lake of fire = SECOND DEATH

AND... the lake of fire = THIS LIFE

How does.... the second death = physical death?   :dunno2:

DEATH and HELL were not the ONLY things cast into the LAKE... the list above names all the applicants... DEATH was destroyed (in ETERNAL terms) at the CROSS of CHRIST...

AMEN!! So how is the second death man's physical death?  :Chinscratch:

ALL DEATH (in ANY FORM, spiritual or physical), has been prevalent ONLY in the REALM of TIME...

I agree.

The verse you quote above... I believe can be read as follows...  This is the 2nd death... DEATH [in all forms] and HELL were cast into the Lake of FIRE... [bracket comments are mine]

I'm not sure what you are saying, as the second death isn't part of the "death" (and hell) being cast into the lake of fire (which IS the second death), right?

I see these things all fulfilled in Christ and His cross and as pertaining to THIS WORLD and those in it. Those who are hurt by the second death are those who abide in "outer darkness" (where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). So I still don't see the connection between the lake of fire and man's physical death. I see it related more to being "twice dead" (while being physically alive).

Keep studying brother... things come at the  decision of God, whilst we are amidst our searching...  :happygrin:

Agreed!!  :2thumbs:

Peace brother...  :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH  :gamer:

PEACE!!!  :gimmefive:

[Craig]

The Names of those who are not in the Lambs book of Life, is not sinners. Jesus came to save sinners, the Names belong to the system of the Law which apostate Israel held as the Way of salvation. They are not in the Lambs book of Life and as I said if you read John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, you will find out those names are all the names Jesus or John called the Pharisee. Second Death is not for us, never has been. You must take Revelation's proposition that if you are overcomer in Christ Jesus, Second Death has no power over you. If we thought Second Death is the death of the sin part in us, WE WANT IT TO HAVE POWER OVER US. Yet, that is not what it says, therefore Second Death is not the death of the 'sin' part of us. It is talking about Judiasm and those who have fallen back to the Law. The Law must die, that is Second Death and those who live by the Law....die by it as well. There is no overcomer to those who live in obedience to the Law, because Righteousness apart from the Law which comes by faith has come. I used to believe Second Death was the death of the 'sin' part of us, that it was our 'physical death'. After debating it, and discussing it for over three years now, it becomes more apparent who and what John was talking about in Revelation.

The Lake of Fire is Gehenna.
Gehenna represents a Judgment against Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God is not found in Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God seeks worshippers who worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Those who continue to find righteousness by the Law (Israel, Judah, Jersualem and the Temple) will not find it but suffer the Lake of Fire.
Lake of Fire is Second Death, it is the Final Death of the covenant of Death and the agreement with Shoel.
The Sea [Israel] must give up it's dead, Death [The Law] must give up it's dead, Sheol [The Agreement] must give up it's dead and Death and Sheol are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The names of those who are not written in the Lambs book of life also are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Satan, False Prophet and His followers are also thrown into the Lake of Fire.
This is Second Death.

That is exactly what it is, we just been taught doom all this time, but it isn't the apocolypse, it is the end. The end scares people, because they think of their death and have no hope and so fear the end, instead of embracing the hope which comes at the end. That is the Apocolypse, all that condemned us will be destroyed, all that had authority to bind us on earth, is destroyed, all the systems and seperations and divisions of people which kept us divided will be destroyed. In the END, God will be all in all.

This has been happening since 33 AD. What was and is and is to come, has not stopped coming.

[laren]

Excellent post Craig. 

2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[laren]

The Names of those who are not in the Lambs book of Life, is not sinners. Jesus came to save sinners, the Names belong to the system of the Law which apostate Israel held as the Way of salvation. They are not in the Lambs book of Life and as I said if you read John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, you will find out those names are all the names Jesus or John called the Pharisee. Second Death is not for us, never has been. You must take Revelation's proposition that if you are overcomer in Christ Jesus, Second Death has no power over you. If we thought Second Death is the death of the sin part in us, WE WANT IT TO HAVE POWER OVER US. Yet, that is not what it says, therefore Second Death is not the death of the 'sin' part of us. It is talking about Judiasm and those who have fallen back to the Law. The Law must die, that is Second Death and those who live by the Law....die by it as well. There is no overcomer to those who live in obedience to the Law, because Righteousness apart from the Law which comes by faith has come. I used to believe Second Death was the death of the 'sin' part of us, that it was our 'physical death'. After debating it, and discussing it for over three years now, it becomes more apparent who and what John was talking about in Revelation.

The Lake of Fire is Gehenna.
Gehenna represents a Judgment against Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God is not found in Israel, Judah, Jerusalem and the Temple.
God seeks worshippers who worship in Spirit and in Truth.
Those who continue to find righteousness by the Law (Israel, Judah, Jersualem and the Temple) will not find it but suffer the Lake of Fire.
Lake of Fire is Second Death, it is the Final Death of the covenant of Death and the agreement with Shoel.
The Sea [Israel] must give up it's dead, Death [The Law] must give up it's dead, Sheol [The Agreement] must give up it's dead and Death and Sheol are thrown into the Lake of Fire. The names of those who are not written in the Lambs book of life also are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Satan, False Prophet and His followers are also thrown into the Lake of Fire.
This is Second Death.

That is exactly what it is, we just been taught doom all this time, but it isn't the apocolypse, it is the end. The end scares people, because they think of their death and have no hope and so fear the end, instead of embracing the hope which comes at the end. That is the Apocolypse, all that condemned us will be destroyed, all that had authority to bind us on earth, is destroyed, all the systems and seperations and divisions of people which kept us divided will be destroyed. In the END, God will be all in all.

This has been happening since 33 AD. What was and is and is to come, has not stopped coming.

Craig, I have a question for you,

what if a person adheres to the system of law abiding for righteousness, in this life; and gets to the end of themselves,their self righteousness, and turns to the Lord by faith (in this life), and then live the rest of their life by the faith of Christ.  Then would you say these people went through second death, the death of mode of life of adherence to self righteousness?? 


or would you say no,

because they had time (in this life) to build up reward (through faith in Christ), and that second death is the result of "no reward" at the "coming Day of the Lord", something future?? 

hope this makes sense??

[Craig]

Craig, I have a question for you,

what if a person adheres to the system of law abiding for righteousness, in this life; and gets to the end of themselves,their self righteousness, and turns to the Lord by faith (in this life), and then live the rest of their life by the faith of Christ.  Then would you say these people went through second death, the death of mode of life of adherence to self righteousness?? 

Jesus said, if you give a glass of water to a child, you certainly will not lose your reward. Those who live by faith, are reward by the faith they live. The parable of the talent, some invested wisely and recieved wisely, some invested foolishly and recieved a fools reward.

or would you say no,

because they had time (in this life) to build up reward (through faith in Christ), and that second death is the result of "no reward" at the "coming Day of the Lord", something future?? 

hope this makes sense??

It makes sense, but time is not indicator of reward, it is faith. If they lived not trusting in the Lord but in their own righteousness for a reward, as Paul states in Romans, they too will be cut off just as Israel was. There is no boasting over the branches, God is impartial, each are reward according to their deeds and their words, without their sin taken into account. A man who does all things in self-righteosness, has their deeds measured to find no good deed and no good word.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Now continue reading

Matthew 7:24-27
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Matthew 23:38 Look, your (teachers of the Law) house is left to you desolate.

[SeekerSA]

 :bottlebump:

[Sarah]

Iv'e noticed these views

-preterist

-is, was, and will be

-Sonship ages; passover, penteconstal, and tabernacles.  (I don't know if I worded that correctly)

I think the thing we see in common is that it has a happy ending.  I don't see how the 'left behind' scenario glorifies God in any light.

[JillieRose]

A question or seven:

As regards the book of Revelation specifically: ok, I get that the Christians are resurrected, and that there is reigning with Christ for a thousand years while the enemy is bound. No clue what it means, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that it's what will happen. Rev 20:4-6.

Then, after the 1000 years, the rest of the dead are resurrected. The Enemy is released from prison and deceives the nations, who surround the saints in their camp, v9, and God consumes them in fire. Then the Devil is thrown into the lake of fire, and the false prophet, because he deceived the nations.

I'm beginning to wonder how much of the symbolism is symbolism for then, as opposed to now, but that's a side issue.

Anyway, Devil consumed in lake of fire.

Then, v11, great white throne, and judgement according to the works recorded in the books, v12.

Then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, and those whose names were not in the Book of Life (v14 and 15).

Then there's a new Heaven and a new earth, (21v1) and God will make His home among mortals, those who conquer v7. The lake of fire is for the liars, polluted, etc. (v8) Nothing unclean will enter the city, but only those in the book of life (v27).

Now, there are numerous arguments one can make from the Bible as a whole for universal reconciliation, but I'm really not seeing it here. I suppose one might wonder about the leaves of the tree of life, which are for the healing of the nations, (22v2), but that's not exactly clear. Nor am I sure about the gates never being shut, because...well, who's outside to enter it? There's nothing which suggests that the second death is anything but...well, permanent. Because...well, no more death here. That's it finished.

There's nothing there(you can make your case elsewhere) but there's nothing contained in these verses which suggests anything other than annihilation for those whose names are not in the book of Life.

Begin supposition: Even if they came out of the fire (which isn't mentioned anywhere here) then they still could not enter the city, even though the gates are open. Not because they have sin any more (because the fire would burn it away, I guess) but because in spite of that, their names are NOT in the book of life. (v27)

See my problem here? The lake of fire, the second death, seems to come as an end in the book of Revelation. At least because I can't see a mention of those who went into it at any later point.