Lake of Fire = Molten sea of glass = Laver

[WhiteWings]

Below a summary of THIS article.
I would like to suggest reading the full article because it's very hard to summarize without leaving important things out.

Summary of the summary  :winkgrin:
LoF=Laver=Molten sea of glass = where the Temple priests purified/washed themselfs daily.
The water in the Laver symbolized highly refined molten gold that is a clear as crystal.
God was sitting at that laver refining the gold.


In our previous chapter, we established that the Fire of God describes both His divine nature and law (word), which expresses it. We saw from Isaiah 26:9 that the purpose of God's judgments (i.e., penalties for sin) was to bring the inhabitants of the world to a place where they would learn righteousness. We saw how the Fire of God purifies us, for God sits as a Refiner of gold and silver (Malachi 3:2 and 3).

Rev 20:
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At first glance, this seems to imply that everyone receives the same judgment. But if this were so, then how could they be judged according to their deeds?  The lake of fire is a general picture of the process of judgment-NOT a specific judgment in and of itself. The lake of fire is the fiery law itself, and the law consists of many different types of judgment, which fit the specific crime committed.
....
This is made apparent by Daniel's description of this same White Throne Judgment in Daniel 7:9 and 10.

9 I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. 10 A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; the court sat, and the books were opened.

What John called "the lake of fire" in the book of Revelation, Daniel describes as "a river of fire." God's Throne itself is pictured as a fire, which then flows like a river out upon the people standing before Him.
.....
The Laver, or the Molten Sea
One must always keep in mind that the book of Revelation was written by a Hebrew. He did not interpret the Old Testament from a Greek or Egyptian perspective. His focus was upon heavenly things, particularly the True Temple in heaven. The religious symbolism of the earthly temple referred only to the heavenly reality and must be viewed in that light. John views all of history as a fulfillment of prophecy displayed in the ceremonies and vessels of the temple.

In view of our present topic, we must study the laver, the place of cleansing and purification for the priests as they washed themselves (baptism), the vessels, and the sacrifices. This "water baptism" set up in the days of Moses, was itself only an earthly manifestation of the heavenly baptism, the baptism of fire.

And so, John points to the temple laver and calls it the lake of fire. In essence, as we shall see, the picture is meant to portray the Refiner's Fire, complete with the cauldron of alloyed mineral and its impurities, as the Refiner begins His work.

....
Both the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon used water in their lavers, rather than molten gold. Yet the water was meant to portray molten gold. Gold is the divine nature, and so the laver itself would portray God's refining process. In our fleshly state, we could not survive a baptism of fiery gold, and so water baptism became the substitute and type of the true baptism of fire.

In the days of Solomon's Temple, the laver was called "the molten sea" (1 Kings 7:23). When gold has been refined to its absolutely pure state, molten gold is as clear as crystal. If Solomon would have filled the Temple's laver with pure gold and melted it, it would have looked like "a sea of glass like crystal" (Rev. 4:6). In Revelation 15:2 John described it as "a sea of glass mixed with fire."

What John saw in heaven was the laver, the lake of fire, as pictured in the Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon. The laver was used to wash (baptize) in order to be cleansed, or purified ceremonially.


There are some who argue that the fire must be a literal place of burning and torture, because it is often associated with "brimstone."

Does the "brimstone" prove that this is a literal fire that tortures men? Actually, the very opposite is true.
Sulphur, or theion, was considered to be sacred to the ancient Greeks. It was used to consecrate for divine service, to PURIFY, and to cleanse. They used it in religious rites to purify their temples. They would even rub it on their bodies to signify consecration to God. In its verb form the word theou means "to hallow, make divine, or to dedicate to God."
.....

This "fire and sulphur," taken symbolically by the more educated or by the higher degrees of religion, was only literalized by the uneducated. The priests generally allowed them to be deceived, of course, because they also believed that fear of fire was a good religious motivator.

The early Christian Church of the first few centuries after Christ knew this. This is shown by their writings. Unfortunately, some also believed in "the doctrine of Reserve." That is, they would withhold some teachings from the novices until they were mature Christians. They did this specifically with the teaching on the lake of fire, allowing novices to take their words literally, rather than spiritually, so that they would be better motivated to turn to Christ.

[jabcat]

Very good!   :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Oh my goodness.  Cha-ching!  :thumbsup:

[I knew that lol]  I had forgotten it.

[Molly]

THE BRONZE LAVER

The Laver was a bronze basin stood on a base about midway between the altar and the tabernacle (Ex.40:30). It was probably round and of considerable size although its exact shape and size are not stated in scripture. However we may surmise that the "stand" was separate since it is always mentioned separately (Ex 30:17).

Only the priests had access to the Laver, whereas the bronze altar was accessible to all. There was cleansing by blood the thought of justification and there was cleansing by water the thought of sanctification. The priests were obliged to wash their hands and their feet before entering God's presence, to disobey would mean death (Ex.30:19-21). There was no floor in the court or the tabernacle therefore the priests feet would be defiled by the constant contact with the earth and the hands by the work at the altar and other work. Therefore they had to wash before any ministry at the altar, to make them clean before communion with God and before service to man.

At their consecration the priests were washed all over at the Laver before being clothed with priestly garments and anointed (Lev.29:4-7). They did not wash themselves at their consecration, but were washed by someone else (Lev.8:6). This act was never repeated (perhaps a symbol of baptism Heb. 10:22) and afterwards the priests had to wash their own hands and feet at the Laver which would be a daily exercise. The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. The thought of God's word being a Laver is seen in the New Testament, when Paul in Ephesians 5:26 writes "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"(NASB). The Greek word used there translated as washing is "loutron" which means Laver and is the Greek word used in the Septuagint for the Laver in the court of the tabernacle. If in the passage we were to put the word Laver it would read "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the Laver of water, with the word". This gives the real insight of the verse, a standing in the place of sanctification that comes through the word of God. The cleansing power of God's word is also see in Psalm 119:9, John 15:3, 1 Peter 1;;22. When we come to the Word of God, the Bible, so it is to us a mirror for our soul that will cleanse us if we are willing to apply its purifying water to our lives.

The Laver water was required also for the washing of the inward parts of the sacrifices (Lev.1:9,13) and so it is that our inner thoughts and motives need divine cleansing.

Thoughts for simple sermons :-

1/ The need to allow ourselves to stand in that place where the word of God can cleanse and sanctify us daily.

2/ We see the Laver in heaven in Revelation 15:2 with the saints standing on or beside it signifying the place or state of absolute holiness with no more defilement to be cleansed.

3/ The need to come to that place by the Laver for cleansing before ministry before God or to other people on behalf of God

These are the articles of furniture found in the court, they speak of an atoning sacrifice and of a cleansing as a preparation to enter into God's presence. The same is true today to be able to come into God's presence, to have a relationship with God we must identify ourselves with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and be cleansed of the sin that makes the relationship with a holy God impossible. But the maintaining of that cleanness that is known as righteousness is the responsibility of every believer by the daily exercise of applying Gods word in everyday living, to keep our thoughts and motives pure.

Now as we enter the tabernacle proper the first compartment we enter known as the holy place contains the following.

http://www.watton.org/studies&stories/tab/bronzelaver.shtml


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Molly]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

What are we seeing when we look in a mirror?



"The thought of God's word being a Laver is seen in the New Testament, when Paul in Ephesians 5:26 writes "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word"(NASB). The Greek word used there translated as washing is "loutron" which means Laver and is the Greek word used in the Septuagint for the Laver in the court of the tabernacle. If in the passage we were to put the word Laver it would read "that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the Laver of water, with the word". This gives the real insight of the verse, a standing in the place of sanctification that comes through the word of God."


2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTRev 4
6 and before the throne is a sea of glass like to crystal, and in the midst of the throne, and round the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind;

God sits in the Holy of Holies (HoH) of as a refiner/fullar before the Laver.

There were complex waterworks that used water from Gideon spring (Keldron valley).
That spring was the source of a "atmospheric spring" that collected dew (signifies life)
-> Dew is always free of impurities
That dew was collected in the Holy of Holies and from there flowed into the laver.
In the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.

http://www.askelm.com/temple/t011113.htm

[WhiteWings]

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Solomon/molten_sea_1.jpg)
Laver/Molten Sea in Solomon's Temple


(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/42stargate/04images/Solomon/Solomons_Temple_med.jpg)

Measuring from the drawing the Laver is 45 feet = 30 cubits = 13.72 meter in diameter

[WhiteWings]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

[Molly]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

[Taffy]

In the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.

The THRONE is HIS mind IN US, the living water which flows through us IS LIFE, Christ the revealer of TRUTH WITHIN, OUR HOPE of GLORY

2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

.  :2c:     The GLORY OF GOD is the HIDDEN truth within us[ CHRIST, the Rising of the MORNING STAR in our HEARTS]HIS GLORY is HID in the HEARTS of ALL men ,until a twinkling[ LIGHT= revl;ation] of an EYE =[ UNderstanding]-  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...

[Taffy]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...

Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:

Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."

John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

2 Pet 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:

[Molly]

In the HoH is His throne. So the river flows out of His throne.

The THRONE is HIS mind IN US, the living water which flows through us IS LIFE, Christ the revealer of TRUTH WITHIN, OUR HOPE of GLORY

2 Cor 3
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

.  :2c:     The GLORY OF GOD is the HIDDEN truth within us[ CHRIST, the Rising of the MORNING STAR in our HEARTS]HIS GLORY is HID in the HEARTS of ALL men ,until a twinkling[ LIGHT= revl;ation] of an EYE =[ UNderstanding]-  :icon_flower:

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.



"In a moment"

G823
ἄτομος
atomos
at'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G5114; uncut, that is, (by implication) indivisible (an "atom" of time): - moment.


We shall be changed at the level of the atom, at the smallest indivisible element uncut by human hands.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
--Dan 2


[and we] "shall be changed"

G236
ἀλλάσσω
allassō
al-las'-so
From G243; to make different: - change.

A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face. :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.

AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---

[Molly]

A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.

AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---

We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

[Taffy]

A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.

AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---

We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

our own protection? explain that one Molly-- im not sure what you saying

[Taffy]

 :2c: pauls stating - why Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear - is not just speaking of the Jews but ALL MEN - as we were all binded\DEAF at BIRTH to HIM due to EVE, HAD we had KNOWN HIM as HE WAS-- we surely wouldnt have Crucified HIM
1Cr 2:5   That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.  [ CHRIST is the POWER and WISDOM of GOD ]


1Cr 2:6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 


1Cr 2:7   But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:  HIM IS US

1Cr 2:8   Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 
1Cr 2:9   But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.  


1Cr 2:10   But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

[Molly]

A change so profound, you will see it in a mirror, face to face.

AS YOU ARE in HIM---ALL what is\was KNOWN was lost when MAN become seperated from HIM---we are again discovering WHO we are - tis why you get those ""WOW" Moments ie the unveiling of what we already KNEW---- that carnal mind exists still in us ALL hence we know only IN part---

We have been veiled, hidden, for our own protection.

1 Corinthians 2:8
Which none of the princes[ARCHON] of this world[AION] knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

our own protection? explain that one Molly-- im not sure what you saying

God had to send Adam out of the garden, but, when he did, he hid him in the skins of beasts--so that no one [specifically the archon] would know who he was.  Neither did they know who Christ was.  This was a mystery hidden from the ages and revealed now to his saints.

Colossians 3:3
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

[Molly]

why Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear

This is where you and I disagree.  I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.

I believe they are supernatural authorities.

"princes" [of this age]

G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.

[Taffy]

why Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear

This is where you and I disagree.  I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.

I believe they are supernatural authorities.

"princes" [of this age]

G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.

Each man is a Prince = RULER who like the son of perdition\False prophet SITS on the THRONE= OF HIS CARNAL MIND-- the MIND the LORD comeS to to REIGN within [ ie the kingdom within ] every man is a PRINCE in the AGE he was born----


Psa 82:7 But 403 ye shall die 4191 like men 120, and fall 5307 like one 259 of the princes 8269

men= adam will fall and die like PRINCES as they are PRINCES-- the PRINCES of this WORLD being ALL at one time until the son of perdition is revealed-- believe as you will Molly--Ill stop here- Tis going off Topic-- Be Blessed :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...

Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:

Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."

John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

2 Pet 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:

You can't use NT verses for the understanding of OT Jews.

[Molly]

why Princes= MAN= carnal mind cant hear

This is where you and I disagree.  I do not believe archon/princes=man. Neither in this context nor in the book of Daniel.

I believe they are supernatural authorities.

"princes" [of this age]

G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.


If you are going to be a prince of this age, you can't fade away in a man's paltry lifetime.

Each man is a Prince = RULER who like the son of perdition\False prophet SITS on the THRONE= OF HIS CARNAL MIND-- the MIND the LORD comeS to to REIGN within [ ie the kingdom within ] every man is a PRINCE in the AGE he was born----


Psa 82:7 But 403 ye shall die 4191 like men 120, and fall 5307 like one 259 of the princes 8269

men= adam will fall and die like PRINCES as they are PRINCES-- the PRINCES of this WORLD being ALL at one time until the son of perdition is revealed-- believe as you will Molly--Ill stop here- Tis going off Topic-- Be Blessed :HeartThrob:

Like I said, we disagree.

And it's the [wicked] princes/gods who will die like men.  It means nothing to condemn men to die since they are going to die anyway.  But to an immortal being, that's a threat.

Psa 82:1  A PsalmH4210 of Asaph.H623 GodH430 standethH5324 in the congregationH5712 of the mighty;H410 he judgethH8199 amongH7130 the gods.H430

[Taffy]

"The Laver was made from the freewill gift of bronze mirrors made by the women (Ex.38:8) and enabled the priests to see their reflection. "

On the doors of the Temple where grapes and leaves. People donated golden leaves and grapes.

1 Corinthians 13:12
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.


What is the meaning to you of grapes and leaves?

Don't know. Certainly it has a meaning...

Who Is the DOOR of the Tabernacle\TEMPLE :icon_flower:

Ex 26:36-37 "You shall make a screen for the door of the tabernacle, woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen, made by a weaver. And you shall make for the screen five pillars of acacia wood, and overlay them with gold; their hooks shall be of gold, and you shall cast five sockets of bronze for them."

John 10:7-9 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

2 Pet 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Jn 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.


Grapes make wine= HIS blood we DRINK--- Leaves are FOR HEALING- Christ the Great Physician- ?? :icon_flower:

You can't use NT verses for the understanding of OT Jews.

Not sure the intent of your post Tony-  so First Id agree the JEWS wouldnt see the sprirtual only the shadow= natural ?

[Molly]

yes indeed Moly
Mar 7:14   And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand: 


Mar 7:15   There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Meaning what?  That we have died with Christ and the tomb [of our heart] covered with a stone?

But, he will give us a heart of flesh at the appointed time.

[Taffy]

yes indeed Moly
Mar 7:14   And when he had called all the people [unto him], he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one [of you], and understand: 


Mar 7:15   There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Meaning what?  That we have died with Christ and the tomb [of our heart] covered with a stone?

But, he will give us a heart of flesh at the appointed time.

I deleted that last post Molly prior to your answer AS did  say Id stop-- and IM STOPPING-- again Be free to believe what you will  :HeartThrob: