Rob Bell, Love Wins

[jabcat]

Sometimes I find the comments after an article very revealing (and interesting).  Following your linked article Molly, are these excerpts of readers' comments;


Reader Comments;

it's not for us to decide whether or not there is a hell. The Bible says there is and if you want to call yourself a Christian you have to deal with that fact.


Rob Bell is a progressive theologian who is perverting the message of Jesus Christ.
If there's no Hell there's no need for the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Something Satan has been try to convince people of for centuries.
Hitler and Mother Teresa are in the same place for all eternity? Really??


We all tend to interpret scriptures in a manner to conform to our beliefs. The scriptures are full of statements affirming that all will be saved. Think about this statement: If God does not save everyone, then either He can't or He won't. If he can't then He is not omnipotent and if He won't, then the monster label seems appropriate.
  What about those who have never heard about Christ? I will be honest Jim, I do not know...Scripture plainly tells us they are doomed. I believe the Word of God. Maybe because God knows they would not have chosen Him anyway they were put in this spot.


to the congregation – God bless you richly for standing up for Biblical truth


King James gave us this bible,leave it alone. He was a God fearing man.


It actually proves how little you understand how the Hebrew word for 'grave'(sheol) was changed to the Greek word for 'hell'(hades) for a Paganized, Romanized, Latinized TRASLATION of Scripture. The same version that 98% of Christians believe today. Yet, there is no verse that talks of an immortal soul, there is no verse that talks of an eternal torment. Verses like John 3:16 and Romans 6:23 clearly, CLEARLY spell out that the gift is eternal life and the "punishment" is death. (i.e., letting you die. Not eternal torture with a guy in red tights and a pitch fork. How Dantesque.)


If all go to heaven why didi chirst need to die for our sins?, why was there a fall of adam?, ehy is there a holy spirt to guides us through life. why would God spend one second of care. If the is no Hell, then Why would there be a heaven.


Yes, the consequences of sin are harsh. Unredeemed sin carries the harshest punishment of all. But the god news is, it's our choice, because we have a way out, provided by none other than the 'monster God' Himself. But anyone who thinks Christ died a horrible, agonizing death on the cross just to provide us with another option we can choose later after we've tried all the more appealing ways ourselves, they're fooling themselves.


Bell and Holtz are so incredibly deluded. Reading this makes me wonder if they've ever read the Bible. Eternal decisions need to be made this side of eternity. They should stop, step back, do the research, read the Bible, and make sure they've got it right before they continue. Not smart to make eternal decisions based on false teachings and false thinkings. As long as they've got breath in their bodies, it's not too late to choose to come down on the side of Truth. No breath means their eternal decision is in eternal concrete – No Do Overs! Now's the time to get it right!

[lomarah]

Yes James, I know what you mean. I have read so much that I just can't stand to even think about it anymore. My husband (ET believer) and I both can't believe the hateful, judgmental responses of some of the most prominent preachers and thousands of those who call themselves Christians. It saddens my heart. He is a brave soul that Bell!

[Lonely Summer]

Amen to that! Bell is a brave man, and slowly, slowly, the message is getting out. All in God's timing.

[WhiteWings]

it's not for us to decide whether or not there is a hell. The Bible says there is and if you want to call yourself a Christian you have to deal with that fact.

An honest reader that doesn't really know what hell means

Rob Bell is a progressive theologian who is perverting the message of Jesus Christ.
If there's no Hell there's no need for the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Something Satan has been try to convince people of for centuries.

For some hell is the core of Christianity. It's more important for hell to be true than for Jesus to be sucessful.

Hitler and Mother Teresa are in the same place for all eternity? Really??

Mother Teresa sweared just before she died so she's in hell. But Hitler prayed 1 minute before he died so right now he's in heaven.....

If all go to heaven why didi chirst need to die for our sins?,

Because without Jesus all would be very very dead for ever. Is it so hard to accept Jesus was succesful?

why was there a fall of adam?, ehy is there a holy spirt to guides us through life. why would God spend one second of care. If the is no Hell, then Why would there be a heaven.

I guess your parents beat you up before every meal. That's the only way you can enjoy food...

Bell and Holtz are so incredibly deluded. Reading this makes me wonder if they've ever read the Bible. Eternal decisions need to be made this side of eternity. They should stop, step back, do the research, read the Bible, and make sure they've got it right before they continue. Not smart to make eternal decisions based on false teachings and false thinkings. As long as they've got breath in their bodies, it's not too late to choose to come down on the side of Truth. No breath means their eternal decision is in eternal concrete – No Do Overs! Now's the time to get it right!

So the ET teaching is sin as much as you like but make sure to repent just before you die and all is fine. Repenting 1 second before or 1 second after death makes all the difference for eternity?



Gary should collect such questions in one article and adress them all. The above is what the flock thinks. Not the pastors etc.

[lomarah]

Mother Teresa sweared just before she died so she's in hell. But Hitler prayed 1 minute before he died so right now he's in heaven.....

I love this!!! Classic evangelical logic haha!!

[legoman]

I read the first couple chapters of the book last night.  Here is a mini "review" off the top of my head.
He definitely asks a lot of questions.  Some people may not like this format because it is a lot of questions and not many direct say-it-plainly answers.  However the questions are largely rhetorical and have an implied answer, and even more importantly they are designed to make you THINK.  Many people don't think and simply follow along with the majority.

Regardless, he makes some excellent points in the couple chapters I've read already:

- many churches/organizations have this aversion to questions.  They think questioning their own beliefs makes them a heretic and damns them to hell. 

- we have all these different beliefs that have separated people into who gets in and who doesn't - have you noticed that the person in any particular belief system always includes themselves in the "who gets in" group?  How convenient...

- many people believe in an "age of accountability".  If the age of accountability belief were really true, the most loving thing we could do would be to terminate the life of someone before reaching the age of accountability

- how exactly are people saved?  Are they saved by saying a sinner's prayer?  Or by following a command?  Or doing something?  Or by forgiving others?  Or by having someone forgive them?  What does it even mean to be "saved"?  If it is based on something we "do", is it really grace?

- what exactly is "heaven"?  Why do people think it is a "place" somewhere far away, and make it seem like their objective is to leave our present "place" here on earth so we can get to the place we really want to be and leave everyone else behing... is the gospel about an escape plan?

Rob Bell tells a story about an atheist teenager killed in a car crash.  He was 15 or so.  If the age of accountability is 12, this kid had only 3 years to "get saved".  What if he would have been saved if he made it to age 16?  Why couldn't God have worked it so he lived another year? 

At the funeral, someone asked if the teenager knew Christ, and as best they could tell he didn't.  The comment was made "all hope is lost then I guess".  Is that what the gospel has become?  All hope is lost?  That is good news?

He speaks about "aion" and "eternal" a bit without getting into the technicalities, that part was not as clear for me.

However he is the master of questions - questions that make you think.  Some people are just too afraid to think about it though.

[lomarah]

- many people believe in an "age of accountability".  If the age of accountability belief were really true, the most loving thing we could do would be to terminate the life of someone before reaching the age of accountability

This is exactly what made me question the hell doctrine. When my daughter was born I was tormented by thoughts about whether she would be saved or not... by thoughts that said "it would be better for her to die soon than to live to be an adult and reject God's salvation"... it was horrible and I cried out to God "HOW IS HELL GOOD???"

And then I was led to UR beliefs.   :smile:

[legoman]

- many people believe in an "age of accountability".  If the age of accountability belief were really true, the most loving thing we could do would be to terminate the life of someone before reaching the age of accountability

This is exactly what made me question the hell doctrine. When my daughter was born I was tormented by thoughts about whether she would be saved or not... by thoughts that said "it would be better for her to die soon than to live to be an adult and reject God's salvation"... it was horrible and I cried out to God "HOW IS HELL GOOD???"

And then I was led to UR beliefs.   :smile:

:thumbsup:

Indeed.

Another part I forgot is Rob goes into "rejecting Jesus/God"... what "Jesus" exactly are you rejecting?  People claim that if you reject Jesus you are going to hell but some people don't even know who Jesus was, so what are they really rejecting?

Are you rejecting the Jesus that taught us to love one another?
Are you rejecting the Jesus that taught us to love our enemies?
Are you rejecting the Jesus that can't save your grandmother because she died with knowing Him?
Are you rejecting the Jesus that will throw us into a fiery hell at the first misstep?

Of course there is only one real Jesus, but people have all these different variations and ideas on what it means to "reject Jesus".  And if you don't agree with them... off to hell for you.

If people don't actually know who or what Jesus is, they cannot have rejected the true Jesus.  What they end up rejecting is a mis-characterization of Jesus.  They reject a gross caricature of God.

[legoman]

LOL I keep remembering things from the two chapters I've read so far.

He brings up this point about why are Christians so busy to try to get to the next world ("heaven"), when the current world we live in needs so much love?  Is the point of this world just to get out of it and "get to heaven"? (escape clause/rapture "save myself" mentality)

There are people who aren't Christians who show more concern for this world than those who are supposed to be showing the world love.

He makes so many good points, all summed up - it leads right to UR.  If you can't tell I'm a fan of the book so far!  :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

That's a great point.  If we're to love our neighbor as ourselves, then how can we also claim we can't wait to get out of here so we can get our reward and those dirty sinners around us can get theirs.

[Lonely Summer]

I definately need to read this book!

[shawn]

I read all of this book the other day.  It's certainly hard to put down.  The overall message is truly inspiring and I don't believe the church is going to be the same.  It will prompt pastors to put out fires, but I believe it will take root.  Once people taste the freedom of truly loving God not just fearing God they will want more.

I won't go into all the details of the book because I think each person needs to read it for themselves.  I'm not sure I completely agree with all the views.  With that said, the overall message wasn't lost on me...love wins.

I hope after more people read this book it can prompt some discussion about the details and views.

[CHB]

Have you wondered why some think this particular book will change the religious world when all the ones before it were trashed and referred to as being the work of Satan? I wonder just how nuch influence this book will have compared to all the others that have been written down through the years? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

CHB

[shawn]

Have you wondered why some think this particular book will change the religious world when all the ones before it were trashed and referred to as being the work of Satan? I wonder just how nuch influence this book will have compared to all the others that have been written down through the years? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

CHB

I think a storms a brewin'.  I feel that it's starting to happen, the day of rest is near.

[legoman]

Have you wondered why some think this particular book will change the religious world when all the ones before it were trashed and referred to as being the work of Satan? I wonder just how nuch influence this book will have compared to all the others that have been written down through the years? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

CHB

I know what you are saying, but for some reason this book seems more "mainstream" - a wider audience, lots of controversy/publicity - maybe it will go farther.

Truth be told a book like Hope Beyond Hell may cover the topic better, but it just doesn't have the visibility that Love Wins has right now.

[WhiteWings]

Many people buy stuff because a know person buys it too.
So when a know person writes a book many people want to read it. Bell seems to avoid all questions on what he believes. That's smart advertising. I didn't read the book because from what I've read (on this forum) it's shallow; but people that do and don't believe in UR think Bell teaches what they believe.
I'm sure if he very clearly stated he was a firm believer in <insert denomination here> his book would have sold much less.
Will it change the religious world? I think that depends on the pressure the people put on their pastor and how the pastor responds. Shallow books and especially the very shallow books like that of Lovelace are easily "refuted" by a good ol' fire and brimstone sermon. (Hanson's 4 works is much better in that respect). But if the pastor acts like a politician losing votes he will change his preaching (a bit) and the book did make a difference.
Also note that many people exactly knew what is in the book weeks before it was on sale....

[Molly]

Anyone who has read this book--

Would this be a good book for a 92 year old who has gone to
the Episcopal church all her life and has no faith?

I'm wondering if she has no faith because she can't make sense
out of the God she has been taught.

We think she might be fearing death, but we can't get her to talk
about God.

[Molly]

From Amazon.com


Editorial Reviews

Review
"It isn't easy to develop a biblical imagination that takes in the comprehensive and eternal work of Christ . . . Rob Bell goes a long way in helping us acquire just such an imagination--without a trace of soft sentimentality and without compromising an inch of evangelical conviction." (Eugene H. Peterson, Professor Emeritus of Spiritual Theology, Regent College, and author of The Message and The Pastor )

"A bold, prophetic and poetic masterpiece. I don't know any writer who expresses the inexpressible love of God as powerfully and as beautifully as Rob Bell! No one who seriously engages this book will put it down unchanged. A 'must read' book!" (Greg Boyd, senior pastor at Woodland Hills Church and author of The Myth of a Christian Nation )

"[Bell] is at his usual best here, casting fresh light on biblical truths, engaging readers with the compelling metaphor, turning the arresting phrase, and reminding all that the love of God is more powerful and sweeping than we can imagine." (Christianity Today )

"One of the nation's rock-star-popular young pastors, Rob Bell, has stuck a pitchfork in how Christians talk about damnation." (USA Today )

"In Love Wins, Rob Bell tackles the old heaven-and-hell question and offers a courageous alternative answer. Thousands of readers will find freedom and hope and a new way of understanding the biblical story - from beginning to end." (Brian D. McLaren, author of A New Kind of Christianity and Naked Spirituality )

Product Description
Millions of Christians have struggled with how to reconcile God's love and God's judgment: Has God created billions of people over thousands of years only to select a few to go to heaven and everyone else to suffer forever in hell? Is this acceptable to God? How is this "good news"?

Troubling questions—so troubling that many have lost their faith because of them. Others only whisper the questions to themselves, fearing or being taught that they might lose their faith and their church if they ask them out loud.

But what if these questions trouble us for good reason? What if the story of heaven and hell we have been taught is not, in fact, what the Bible teaches? What if what Jesus meant by heaven, hell, and salvation are very different from how we have come to understand them?

What if it is God who wants us to face these questions?

Author, pastor, and innovative teacher Rob Bell presents a deeply biblical vision for rediscovering a richer, grander, truer, and more spiritually satisfying way of understanding heaven, hell, God, Jesus, salvation, and repentance. The result is the discovery that the "good news" is much, much better than we ever imagined.

Love wins.




Amazon Bestsellers Rank: #4 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#1 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > Christianity > Christian Living > Faith
#2 in Books > Religion & Spirituality > General

[WhiteWings]

In case she got bad eye-sight: Love Wins audio book (take the trial offer and it's free)

Perhaps you can print (or order for free) This 48 page book
New 48 page easy reading Abridged Ed. to help you share this message with others! Contains:

   
• The full Table of Contents
• Introduction
• Chapter Six (expounds 16 key Scriptures)
• Appendix I (186 glorious passages)
• Appendix II (Every Knee Will Bow)
• Appendix III (Testimony of Song) plus...
• A brief summary (new) of all ten chapters!
• It also includes a proclamation tract titled: "Jesus Died to Save the Whole World"- all taken from the newly revised edition.

[shawn]

Many people buy stuff because a know person buys it too.
So when a know person writes a book many people want to read it. Bell seems to avoid all questions on what he believes. That's smart advertising. I didn't read the book because from what I've read (on this forum) it's shallow; but people that do and don't believe in UR think Bell teaches what they believe.
I'm sure if he very clearly stated he was a firm believer in <insert denomination here> his book would have sold much less.
Will it change the religious world? I think that depends on the pressure the people put on their pastor and how the pastor responds. Shallow books and especially the very shallow books like that of Lovelace are easily "refuted" by a good ol' fire and brimstone sermon. (Hanson's 4 works is much better in that respect). But if the pastor acts like a politician losing votes he will change his preaching (a bit) and the book did make a difference.
Also note that many people exactly knew what is in the book weeks before it was on sale....

It's just a seed.  Those who are hungry will find the depth they will seek.

[shawn]

Anyone who has read this book--

Would this be a good book for a 92 year old who has gone to
the Episcopal church all her life and has no faith?

I'm wondering if she has no faith because she can't make sense
out of the God she has been taught.

We think she might be fearing death, but we can't get her to talk
about God.

I personally think so.

[Molly]

That customer review section over at Amazon is incredible.  People are really getting into this, discussion the Greek, discussing the theology, discussing the emotional import.  I think you can post answers to particular posters as well.

Go for it, guys.  :happygrin:

[Molly]

In case she got bad eye-sight: Love Wins audio book (take the trial offer and it's free)

wow I just downloaded the audiobook.  It's got music.  I think the voice is Rob's.

This is cool.  Thanks, ww.

[WhiteWings]

Music? Is it a sermon with church music? I assumed he was just reading the book.
Yes the voice is Bell's
From Amazon: Rob Bell (Author, Narrator)

That customer review section over at Amazon is incredible.  People are really getting into this, discussion the Greek,

Likely I'm not following Christianity long enough to make a statement like this, but it seems words like aion become more common knowledge. Of course interpretation varies a lot but at least people seem to start looking below the surface of translations.

[Molly]

Music? Is it a sermon with church music?

No. lol.  Turns out the music was just in the background while he was reading the preface.

I'm really enjoying the book, but I like listening to him speak about just about anything.  It might even be a better book to listen to than to read because it sounds just like one of his sermons.

...but it seems words like aion become more common knowledge.

Yes, I had never heard about it before this board.  It changes how you think about everything.

But I notice a big objection over at Amazon is temporary hell = temporary life.