Rob Bell, Love Wins

[Mr.Irrelevant]

Yes I think that Universal salvation is a bad term to use myself, it sounds too similar to new age eastern philosphy, that is where a lot of attacks are directed at, also universalism does not regard the death of Christ.

Please could you and maybe some others explain why you think universal salvation is a bad term to use and what term we should be using instead and why? What's the difference between universal salvation and universal reconciliation?

Hi Miriam,
I am also someone who believes that everyone will eventually be saved - though I refuse to be known as a universalist.  This difference between "universalism" and "universal reconciliation" has to do with the role of Chirst in salvation.  A Universalist believes that "all paths lead to heaven", whatever journey you're on will get you there.  Heaven will be full of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and Wiccans.

Universal Reconciliationists however, believe that only people who have faith in Christ will get to heaven. No Muslims, Buddhists, or Wiccans allowed.  The good news is that someday every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, so that everyone will eventually be a Christian.  It's an important distinction.

[Miriam]

Yes I think that Universal salvation is a bad term to use myself, it sounds too similar to new age eastern philosphy, that is where a lot of attacks are directed at, also universalism does not regard the death of Christ.

Please could you and maybe some others explain why you think universal salvation is a bad term to use and what term we should be using instead and why? What's the difference between universal salvation and universal reconciliation?

Hi Miriam,
I am also someone who believes that everyone will eventually be saved - though I refuse to be known as a universalist.  This difference between "universalism" and "universal reconciliation" has to do with the role of Chirst in salvation.  A Universalist believes that "all paths lead to heaven", whatever journey you're on will get you there.  Heaven will be full of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and Wiccans.

Universal Reconciliationists however, believe that only people who have faith in Christ will get to heaven. No Muslims, Buddhists, or Wiccans allowed.  The good news is that someday every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, so that everyone will eventually be a Christian.  It's an important distinction.

Thank you. What, then, is a Christian Universalist?

[Mr.Irrelevant]

Yes I think that Universal salvation is a bad term to use myself, it sounds too similar to new age eastern philosphy, that is where a lot of attacks are directed at, also universalism does not regard the death of Christ.

Please could you and maybe some others explain why you think universal salvation is a bad term to use and what term we should be using instead and why? What's the difference between universal salvation and universal reconciliation?

Hi Miriam,
I am also someone who believes that everyone will eventually be saved - though I refuse to be known as a universalist.  This difference between "universalism" and "universal reconciliation" has to do with the role of Chirst in salvation.  A Universalist believes that "all paths lead to heaven", whatever journey you're on will get you there.  Heaven will be full of Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, and Wiccans.

Universal Reconciliationists however, believe that only people who have faith in Christ will get to heaven. No Muslims, Buddhists, or Wiccans allowed.  The good news is that someday every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, so that everyone will eventually be a Christian.  It's an important distinction.

Thank you. What, then, is a Christian Universalist?

Technically it would be someone who is choosing the Christian path to heaven, though they don't rule out other paths as equally worthy.  That's the technical meaning, but I'm sure people who use that term may well mean something else entirely. (including universal reconciliation)

[micah7:9]

I for one(and I am sure it is me only that is the one) am bowled over with laughter. I find the whole discussion.. out there somewhere, to say the least.
This man is speaking a truth, a Truth that the Bible teaches, and now that the media has found discussion that will fire and cause more media uproar and the people who follow the media(its called publicity, to sell something that is marketable and bound to make money) and those who believe that that same outlet, will in some way proclaim and bring forth a rea truth, get caught up in it... like they are supposed to.
1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
Now please what else could Bro. Bell write about, should he have a desire to express the Truth of what the Bible teaches?

[legoman]

I don't think you can listen to this guy out of context.

Here's an 80 min video--I haven't listened to it yet.

Everything is Spiritual

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=77024018179262526#

Thanks for posting it, just finished watching it - that video was awesome!

[redhotmagma]

A lot of the info that Bell presents in "Everything is Spiritual" can be found in the books "The case for the creator", and "The creator and the cosmos", if you ever want more scientific "proof" for God.  His tying it in with the spiritual is brilliant. 

[Nathan]

he also states in the book coming out in the forward that there's nothing in there that hasn't already been said by others . . .so he's not trying to present a new thing.  I think God is raising up the awareness of things that have been being said for years . . .but now, truth is gaining momentum in the arena of religion.  And yeah, I'm sure publicity for selling a book is inevidible, but I believe God uses chickens, donkeys, super big fish .. .even loaves of bread to speak his message . . .I think he can use this just as effectively.  I say . . GO GOD!!!

It's already caused many opportunites in conversations with traditional believers, they are seeing the publicity and they are beginning to stop and think about it . . . I think it's part of the Sabbath Day message . . . which is simply saying that as truth comes, the church can't recognize it due to their bondage of religions they've established and defend.

[Beloved Servant]

... and the HORNET:

hor'-net (tsir`ah; compare tsor`ah, "Zorah" (Jdg 13:2, etc.); also compare tsara`ath, "leprosy" (Lev 13:2, etc.); from tsara`, "to smite"; Septuagint sphekia, literally, "wasp's nest"): Hornets are mentioned only in Ex 23:28; Dt 7:20; Josh 24:12. All three references are to the miraculous interposition of God in driving out before the Israelites the original inhabitants of the promised land. There has been much speculation as to whether hornets are literally meant. The following seems to throw some light on this question (Ex 23:20,27,28): "Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. .... I will send my terror before thee, and will discomfit all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send the hornet before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee." The "terror" of Ex 23:27 may well be considered to be typified by the "hornet" of 23:28, the care for the Israelites (23:20) being thrown into marked contrast with the confusion of their enemies. Compare Isa 7:18, where the fly and the bee symbolize the military forces of Egypt and Assyria: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that Yahweh will hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria."
Hornets and wasps belong to the family Vespidae of the order Hymenoptera. Both belong to the genus Vespa, the hornets being distinguished by their large size. Both hornets and wasps are abundant in Israel (compare Zorah, which may mean "town of hornets"). a large kind is called in Arabic debbur, which recalls the Hebrew debhorah, "bee." They sting fiercely, but not unless molested.
                                                                       — Alfred Ely Day: http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/H/HORNET/

[WhiteWings]

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/topicseen/discussions_universal_salvation/rob_bell_love_wins_9429.msg118311.html#new

Maybe he doesn't know what true Biblical UR is, i.e., everyone must eventually come through Jesus to be saved.  :dontknow:     Because although he denies being some version of universalist (Unitarian Universalism perhaps) he still says other things that sound like the door's WIDE OPEN to the possibility of Biblical Ultimate Reconciliation (the kind Apostle Paul described :).

I'm sure he  knows what UR is. Many opponents do too. They just often twist it a bit to build a strawman argument.
He just doesn't feel safe enough to openly declare it. Maybe it's tactics. Sometimes working from the inside out is more effective than a than a direct assault. Feed little bits and people swallow it. Feed large chuncks and people choke on it

A preacher can chose to give a weekly fire and brimstone sermon. Or give a sermon about all sorts of happy verses/concepts using the very same Bible translation. Is the glass half full? Or is it half empty?

[WhiteWings]

Amen Nathan
The seventh angel blew his trumpet; and there followed loud voices in Heaven which said,
"The sovereignty of the world now belongs to our Lord and His Christ; and He will be King until the Ages of the Ages."

Not unlikely the people in the 1800's said the same. Many books and UR was openly preached in churches. And then it disappeared again.
I mean; haven't people always though/hoped Jesus will return soon. All those people saw sign.....
:2c:

[Beloved Servant]

Are you disagreeing with the Scripture I quoted or with what Nathan wrote?

[WhiteWings]

I'm not disagreeing with any Scripture. I'm just saying that many Christians who just like you and Nathan put great belief in Scriptures thought Jesus returned in their time. I'm sure Christians in 100AD, 1000AD, 1500AD etc all had that hope. They all knew the Bible and studied it daily. And saw proofs Jesus should/will come soon.
Nothing personal. Just an observation :2c:
Plus I might have overlooked some verse that you posted. (very possible)

:Peace:

[Beloved Servant]

I, for one, do not believe that Jesus is coming back but rather appearing in His saints.
About the Christians who have come before me I can not speak for them, for the LORD has appeared many times to many people throughout the Scriptures.

[Nathan]

Yeah, not sure how my name got mixed into that either, because for me, he already accomplished the redemption of the flesh, there's no more need for us to expect him to be confined into one body of flesh.  I do believe this realm is going to be reversed with the spiritual.  I don't see anything being eliminated or destroyed, just reversal of the dominance in realms.  we'll all be one body, which is what we should be now.  The lines of division will be transformed into lines of distinction . . .like where a hand stops and an arm starts kind a thing . . .but we'll all be one body which is Christ at the head of us.

[micah7:9]

"... we'll all be one body, which is what we should be now." Nathan
Very well said and Beloved you to my friend understand.

[shawn]

My personal favorite so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T976TO1X-4&feature=related

[jabcat]

From Thomas J. Kissinger


"If you have not gotten Rob Bell's book entitled "LOVE WINS", you really need to get it!

Here is what Dr. Stephen Jones had to say about it........

"We have long wondered what would be revealed at this time. What is the key ingredient that makes the difference? And we have now seen His answer in the newly-released book by Pastor Rob Bell, Love Wins.

Last Saturday, when I went to Barnes and Noble, they told me that they had sold out almost immediately but that a large shipment was coming in a few days. I picked up three copies yesterday (two extras for apostolic friends). I read the book in a few hours and must say that I believe this book will change the church more than any other in our generation.

I believe that understanding the contents of this book is the missing ingredient that will transform true apostles into "effective" apostles.

Why? Because an effective apostle is one who succeeds in his mission. Succeeds in what? In revealing the heart of God.

I wish I had had this book in my college days. I wish I had been able to answer the objections of my fellow students at the University of Minnesota, who were unable to see the logic of an all-powerful God losing most of humanity to the devil. They could not see how the very God who had power over both life and death could Himself be bound to cast His children into a burning hell forever once they passed the deadline of death. They could not see how a God who claimed to be Love itself would be forced to resort to infinitely torturing those who rejected Him during their short time on earth.

Believe me, it was difficult making converts in those days. The message that I had to offer was largely ineffective. Why? Because at the time, I did not really understand the heart of God at all, though I had been raised in all the standard teachings of the church.

Rob Bell's book is not a book on theology. He does not approach the question from the perspective of indepth Bible study. Yet the questions he asks are profound. He raises all the questions that college students do. And the answer that comes out clearly is that the church has largely failed to present the Jesus of the Bible. It has failed to present the true heart of God that is burned upon every page of The Book. The fear motive in evangelism has encumbered God's Love with contradictions that have turned away an entire generation of youth.

Rob Bell writes on pages 107-109,

In the third century the church fathers Clement of Alexandria and Origen affirmed God's reconciliation with all people. In the fourth century, Gregory of Nyassa and Eusebius believed this as well. In their day Jerome claimed that "most people," Basil said the "mass of men," and Augustine acknowledged that "very many" believed in the ultimate reconciliation of all people to God.

Central to their trust that all would be reconciled was the belief that untold masses of people suffering forever doesn't bring God glory. Restoration brings God glory; eternal torment doesn't. Reconciliation brings God glory; endless anguish doesn't. Renewal and return cause God's greatness to shine through the universe; never-ending punishment doesn't....

Which is stronger and more powerful, the hardness of the human heart or God's unrelenting, infinite, expansive love? Thousands through the years have answered that question with the resounding response, "God's love, of course." ...

At the center of Christian tradition since the first church have been a number who insist that history is not tragic; hell is not forever, and love, in the end, wins and all will be reconciled to God.

Simple. Profound. The heart of God. He quotes Scripture profusely, but somehow does not get bogged down in it. (Do I sound envious? No, but I do admire that and see its value for newbies.)

This is the understanding that will make the new apostolic movement truly effective. This is what will change the world and turn the church upside down. Or right side up.

We have a massive job ahead of us. We have been preparing for this task for many years. The key to our success will be to present the Love of God, not the condemnation of God. Paul spoke of us as "ambassadors for Christ," and he gave us the central message that we are to present to the world:

"that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the world of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

Yet somehow the Church settled on a new message: "Turn or Burn."

Which gospel do you think will be more effective? Which evangelistic message better reveals the heart of God? Is this why Paul's letters do not even refer to hell (hades) except to establish God's victory over it? (1 Cor. 15:55)

The fact that over 10,000 attend Bell's church in Michigan (largely young people, they say), and that his internet messages are viewed by a vastly larger audience, shows us the effectiveness of his message. The world rejoices in his message, because they are searching for a God who is worthy to be praised. A God more powerful than the will of man. A God who cannot tolerate the thought of failure (Num. 14:16 and 21).

I recall a testimony from a young man in prison who finished reading my book, Creation's Jubilee, on the eighth day of Tabernacles in 1996. His comment was, "Now that's the kind of God I can worship." My message was essentially the same as Pastor Bell's, but somewhat heavier in style and content.

In the two comings of Christ, the first apostles focused primarily upon the work of Christ on the cross and the outpouring of the Spirit. This was the Passover-Pentecost gospel. Our message today has added the revelation of Jubilee and Tabernacles (the second set of feast days). The Jubilee gospel is about setting people free through the Restoration of All Things.

That is the message of effective apostles today." -end quote-

PRAISE GOD!!!

ourtimeisnowhere

our time is now here.......

--
Sincerely,
Thomas Kissinger

Hearing The Truth Of God (A Website Dedicated To Promoting Truth):
http://www.hearingthetruthofgod.com/

[shawn]

Its a very good book.  I will do a book review at a future date.  I'm not sure I see eye to eye on all the beliefs but none the less there is much good insight,

[lomarah]

My husband and I went to the Christian bookstore to get one yesterday but they were all sold out. They are going to call us when the new shipment comes in. (So excited that my hubby wants to read it!!!)

[WhiteWings]

You can also download it as an e-book. (and an 3:30 audio book)

[legoman]

I just picked it up at lunch (from Chapters - Canada).  I hope to read it this coming up week... it doesn't look too long actually.

[Lonely Summer]

Johnny Cash did a song called "Down There By the Train", he didn't write it, but it sounds universalist to me. I don't have the lyrics in front of me, but part of it goes "there's no eye for an eye, no tooth for a tooth, I saw Judas Iscariot carrying John Wilkes Booth." I knew nothing about universalism at the time I first heard it, but my heart responded to it, "what a wonderful, loving message". People have been beaten up for centuries with the ET gospel, "God is angry with you and wants to punish you", it's about time they got to hear something different.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/downtherebythetrain.html

[Molly]

Rob Bell made the local secular/atheist radio talk show circuit.

They are intrigued.  They think he's saying there is no hell.

Also this:  It's going international.

Hell hath no fury: Pastor fired by church over posting doubts about sinners going to hell on Facebook


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1369541/Hell-hath-fury-Pastor-fired-church-doubts-sinners-going-hell.html#ixzz1HYRhLubs

[Molly]

Here's another article on the fired pastor, including an interview.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastor-fired-after-backing-new-rob-bell-book-questioning-hell/