our true nature

[amanda]

  Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world. 
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel.  The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind. 
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is.  The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.
amanda

[Loveroftruth]

Hey Amanda  :girlheart:


I have seen a bit like this -- that our whole lives, layer by layer lies are added to who we are... from babies to adults, the world tells us who we are, teachers, parents, friends, boyfriends, etc.... then we meet God and He says "Let me show you who you really are" and there starts the process of layer by layer the crud coming off and we slowly start to see who we truly are and we become FREE :HeartThrob:

[amanda]

Yes thats it Loveroftruth, thankyou.
amanda

[firstborn888]

I do think that humans are born with nice healthy 'egos' without being taught anything. But yes, when all the layers of the earthy Adam are removed, the heavenly is there....
  blessings,
  byron

[SLN]

Modification: Have since changed my opinion.  :mblush:

[amanda]

  If we believe our core nature is sinful we will try to manufacture our own goodness.  God created us in His image, but we created our own image of ourselves, our self-image.
amanda 

[jchpiper]

A ramble here....

I've thought of this recently in light of cellular memory....part of that being that our cells store memories that are transferred genetically. (There is some controversy regarding the particulars of cellular memory, and some intriguing accounts regarding organ transplant patients. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.)

Leviticus 17:11 states the soul of the flesh is in the blood.  Is not our soul transcribed (so to speak) on these cells?  These cells circulate oxygen and communicate all kinds of stuff all the time; they are like tiny little universes.  Our psyche isn't just in our brain....it is located throughout our entire body...in all our cells, which is at least part of what makes up the soul (psuche). 

If we are all of one blood (which I think we are)....how much memory do cells store and how far back would it go?  If man was originally created body,soul, and spirit in the image of God....it seems that would have a big impact on the cells. Did not sin came in after the original creation?  Did sin have a greater impact than God's original design?  It seems to me God's original design (being more powerful than sin) would leave some impact, some residue, some memory?

ie:  If sin (a spiritual trait) can be transmitted, surely godliness (a spiritual trait) can be. Or is sin more powerful than godliness?

I believe that man desires to do good....like Carole King sings. *wink*  I believe the heart is good...as John Eldredge states.  I believe god has planted a purpose divine in the hearts of men, as proverbs state.  I believe this regardless of what Jeremiah states, that the heart is deceitful above all else.  I've been pondering that Jeremiah scripture for years.   :dontknow:

[jchpiper]

I do think that humans are born with nice healthy 'egos' without being taught anything. But yes, when all the layers of the earthy Adam are removed, the heavenly is there....
  blessings,
  byron

Off topic here:  Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo?    :thumbsup:  And who is the little girl?

It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is.   :Sparkletooth:

[Kept]

Great post jchpiper

It reminds me of Bob Torangos book 'The House that God Built', have you by chance read that book?

If not it will so bless you as he talks a lot about what you are sharing.

kept

[Kept]

oh one more thing

its seen here I think really clearly

Psa 90:2  Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

You are describing, to me that , return, that is written within our very dna

kept

[jchpiper]

Great post jchpiper

It reminds me of Bob Torangos book 'The House that God Built', have you by chance read that book?

If not it will so bless you as he talks a lot about what you are sharing.

kept

I haven't read it...yet. ;-)   But it is on my list now.  Might be a little down the road....but I'm sure my eyes will cross it in the not-too-distant future.  :thumbsup:

[jchpiper]

oh one more thing

its seen here I think really clearly

Psa 90:2  Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

You are describing, to me that , return, that is written within our very dna

kept

That's cool...  :winkgrin:

That brings to mind something Eric Stetson wrote. The essay is on "free will;" however, I found Eric's thoughts  regarding the soul quite enlightening.
(Bold is mine):

"The bottom line, as I see it, is that I do not believe God would ever create a soul with the intrinsic desire to be damned. Therefore, all souls desire to be saved.  If we desire something, we will inevitably seek it -- at least eventually we will, under the right conditions. Souls that do not seek salvation in this earthly life simply are too much under the influence of the desires of the flesh; but when the flesh falls away at death and the soul is liberated, the soul will be returned to its natural preponderance of inclinations, which is on balance to seek God. Therefore, I believe in the afterlife all souls will desire to be redeemed, and will be willing to do whatever is necessary to be reconciled and reunited with their Creator. "

http://www.christian-universalism.com/faq/free-will.html

:thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

Off topic here:  Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo?    :thumbsup:  And who is the little girl? It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is.   :Sparkletooth:

Hi Carol!
That's me with my adopted granddaughter Gabriella. 
   
  - byron

[jchpiper]

Off topic here:  Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo?    :thumbsup:  And who is the little girl? It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is.   :Sparkletooth:

Hi Carol!
That's me with my adopted granddaughter Gabriella. 
   
  - byron

:Sparkletooth:  :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

Everybody's good and wll behaved after they're dead 

[amanda]

Hello jchpiper, I dont really understand your post, but thats not unusual for me.  I was adopted and met my birth mother when I was 21, we share an amazing amount of the same interests - am I on the right track, things are passed on?
I've read that when our bodies are looked at thru a microscope we are made up of mainly space.  I've always liked the idea that God manifests as the space that allows things to be.
amanda

[Taffy]

Everybody's good and wll behaved after they're dead 

:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.

Hi Amanda

For mine..no.........

the natural state of MAN is not divine,....its wicked...

As Byron Hinted..when the layers are removed  etc :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi amanda...  :welcome: to Tentmaker...

ALL MEN are born in the NATURAL state (which comes first - see 1 Cor 15:46 )  Within this state is the ability to DISOBEY... (SIN is in our FLESHLY members - Rom 7:23-25 / James 1:14)

Gen 2:17 notes that Adam and Eve were already DYING in the NATURAL, before "eating"

GOD's WORD is ETERNAL, and even though it was noted "post" (after) eating, GOD's WORD, contained (in the ETERNAL sense - no "before or after"), ...the statement that Adam & Eve would return to the dust (Gen 3:19)


Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain

17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The DEATH that was wrought by their (and our) DISOBEDIENCE was (and is) SPIRITUAL... and it is THIS DEATH that CHRIST's sacrifice redeems us from... for FLESH & BLOOD (natural state of man) shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God...

This is also why CHRIST observed "physically alive" human beings as DEAD...  :nod: ("let the DEAD, bury their DEAD - Mat 8:22)

The DEATH which CHRIST tasted FOR US (we "taste" for ourselves, physical death), is the DEATH we shall be redeemed FROM...  that being, LIFE in the SPIRIT, ...our destiny...  :myahoo:  Which is where the most sought after thing IN MAN is found, ...LOVE...

GOD is SPIRIT, and we are, through the life and death of the natural, and through sufferings (in the vessels of DISHONOR), being made in the IMAGE of GOD, which is SPIRIT... (the vessels of HONOR) (Rom 9:21 - one vessel of dishonor and one vessel of Honor, made of the SAME LUMP - of CLAY)

We ALL die (and are APPOINTED to) the NATURAL DEATH (Heb 9:27), but CHRIST has redeemed us from SPIRITUAL DEATH, which first took place in Adam & Eve, in the Garden, as a result of NATURAL DISOBEDIENCE... and each of us has followed the NATURAL course after them, which contains that same ability they had, to DISOBEY...

If Adam & Eve did NOT have the ABILITY to DISOBEY (natural state of man), ...then they WOULD NOT have DISOBEYED the command of YHVH...  And subsequently would NOT have REFLECTED YHVH by having the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which required DISOBEDIENCE!

YHVH stated, once the two had DISOBEYED, that they had become AS was He, ...knowing GOOD and EVIL...  :bigGrin:


pEace...  :laughing7:

In JESUS...willieH :gamer:

[laren]

willieH: Hi amanda...  :welcome: to Tentmaker...

ALL MEN are born in the NATURAL state (which comes first - see 1 Cor 15:46 )  Within this state is the ability to DISOBEY... (SIN is in our FLESHLY members - Rom 7:23-25 / James 1:14)

Gen 2:17 notes that Adam and Eve were already DYING in the NATURAL, before "eating"

GOD's WORD is ETERNAL, and even though it was noted "post" (after) eating, GOD's WORD, contained (in the ETERNAL sense - no "before or after"), ...the statement that Adam & Eve would return to the dust (Gen 3:19)


Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain

17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

The DEATH that was wrought by their (and our) DISOBEDIENCE was (and is) SPIRITUAL... and it is THIS DEATH that CHRIST's sacrifice redeems us from... for FLESH & BLOOD (natural state of man) shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God...

This is also why CHRIST observed "physically alive" human beings as DEAD...  :nod: ("let the DEAD, bury their DEAD - Mat 8:22)

The DEATH which CHRIST tasted FOR US (we "taste" for ourselves, physical death), is the DEATH we shall be redeemed FROM...  that being, LIFE in the SPIRIT, ...our destiny...  :myahoo:  Which is where the most sought after thing IN MAN is found, ...LOVE...

GOD is SPIRIT, and we are, through the life and death of the natural, and through sufferings (in the vessels of DISHONOR), being made in the IMAGE of GOD, which is SPIRIT... (the vessels of HONOR) (Rom 9:21 - one vessel of dishonor and one vessel of Honor, made of the SAME LUMP - of CLAY)

We ALL die (and are APPOINTED to) the NATURAL DEATH (Heb 9:27), but CHRIST has redeemed us from SPIRITUAL DEATH, which first took place in Adam & Eve, in the Garden, as a result of NATURAL DISOBEDIENCE... and each of us has followed the NATURAL course after them, which contains that same ability they had, to DISOBEY...

If Adam & Eve did NOT have the ABILITY to DISOBEY (natural state of man), ...then they WOULD NOT have DISOBEYED the command of YHVH...  And subsequently would NOT have REFLECTED YHVH by having the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which required DISOBEDIENCE!

YHVH stated, once the two had DISOBEYED, that they had become AS was He, ...knowing GOOD and EVIL...  :bigGrin:


pEace...  :laughing7:

In JESUS...willieH :gamer:

Hi Willie, or any one else that can answer my question.  Why does it say that Jesus was the LAST Adam, yet most here continue to say we all are born in Adam, as if we are the continuing last Adam.  If he was the last Adam, how can anyone else be born in Adam?? 

thanks

Laren

[Taffy]

Hi Willie, or any one else that can answer my question.  Why does it say that Jesus was the LAST Adam, yet most here continue to say we all are born in Adam, as if we are the continuing last Adam.  If he was the last Adam, how can anyone else be born in Adam?? 

thanks

Laren

Laren He wasnt  only the LAST  Adam...HE was ALSO the First.....


The ADAM  BORN male and Female Is a Christ TYPE.....

however, the ADAM of the Flesh is ANOTHER....Bro Ive learnt that  SCRIPTURE speaks TWO fold..one after the FLESH and one after the Spirit....both Bearing Testimony to each other...

DIVIDE the WORD of TRUTH...one after the FLESH ( OLDC) and then one after the SPIRIT( New C)

Genesis answers this...

maybe Pneuma or KIM will expound some...

Willie has done in the WAY of the Willie man  :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[laren]

To answer my own question, Christ is the head, but the body of Adam had to die and rise again too.  

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

But could it be, that those alive prior to the resurrection; were the "in Adam", this generation.  

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mat 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Could it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ".  

But the world still teaches (from birth on) that we are evil, no good, and hence we all eat of a tree that is no longer given authority; and therefore we all go through the shedding of the layers of false belief systems; and our core really is LOVE?

just some things I continue to ponder.  


oops, posted while you were posting Graham.   :happygrin:

[laren]

basically, I question;

are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one

or

are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious). 


If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,

I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue.  Old habits are hard to die. 

[jchpiper]

Hello jchpiper, I dont really understand your post, but thats not unusual for me.  I was adopted and met my birth mother when I was 21, we share an amazing amount of the same interests - am I on the right track, things are passed on?
I've read that when our bodies are looked at thru a microscope we are made up of mainly space.  I've always liked the idea that God manifests as the space that allows things to be.
amanda

My apologies Amanda... :mblush:  It was a ramble.

Yup...about stuff being passed on, like the genetic stuff.

Some more ramble here.  I don't know if it will clarify some of my thought snippets or not.

I was thinking about the nature of man from the angle that our cells throughout our bodies which are nourished by blood (wherein the soul of the flesh abides), that these cells contain memories themselves.  Memory is not just in our brains, it is part of our souls. 

So my question ends up how much  of that original created spirit imprint was embedded in the first man's cells (soul) and was any of that passed down after the fall, or was that spirit imprint erased in man's soul due to the fall? If so does that make mankind wicked?  What is the definition of wicked?  Does the natural man mean the wicked man? 

That being said, soul is different from spirit.

My next thought is that if it was erased or died, then when a person is born again (from above) Jesus Christ creates his spirit (the new man, that 2nd adam, Christ in you, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the comforter, etc.) within that person restoring that spiritual connection that Adam lost. If that is so, was their no spiritual connection within that person before that person got born again?


Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients.  Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies.  Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had.  At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight.  It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant.  Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.    So I hope my sharing doesn't offend anyone here.

Another book, Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert, goes into the aspect of our mind is not just in our brain....but in our cells throughout our bodies.  The Institute of Heartmath is doing research regarding what cardiologist call "the brain within the heart."  It is a know fact that our gut and heart area contain the same communicators our brain contains.

All that (to me) plays into the soul category....imprints made on our cells.  How does that play into spirit when man was originally formed, made, and created?  Was there imprint from spirit left?

Hope that clarifies my thoughts some.  Apologies if it doesn't....  :sigh:

[SeekerSA]

Carol

This I believe has merit and IMO is possible wrt to transplants.   If we look at emotions, let's take two

Love - falling in love.
Grief - death of a loved one

Where are these emotions felt? In the gut/chest etc.  They are not felt in the mind.

It is the same as the mysterious sixth sense.

To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water.  Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.

If you study certain small unknown cultures like the bushmen in the Karroo desert in SA, they are so in touch with nature, I do not think they even spank children and they are very environment aware.  There are however hybrids of these bushmen that have mixed it up with western culture and very much like what Paul said about sin only coming through the revelation of the law, can be seen with these hybrids who do pretty much everything the pure bushmen do not.

There is a tribe in South America and they are all naked, men and women.  So for them there does not seem to be a flesh sin problem.

Now of course, we cannot just take our clothes off and go live off the land now can we?  No, we were brought up different, different value systems.  Hence those that have laws have measures to effect those laws.

So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias.  Granted I have cited two exceptions to the rule, yet teaching a bushman about Jesus and even worse Christianity does more harm than good hence the hybrids I spoke of earlier, they stay in the Karroo but in houses and they do as westerners do and they wear westerners clothing.  They tasted of civilisation and it destroyed their culture.  Lucky, some still hold to the old ways.

View some pics of Bushmen here  Note: these are likely not the true ones I am referring to

Blessings