Someone help me, please...

[Michelle]

Michelle, I don't see anything in the Bible condoning pedophilia.

The Talmud is something altogether different and does not concern me in any way.  I consider the Talmud among what Jesus called 'the teachings of men'.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

From the Bible:

Exodus 21:7-11
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her FOR HIMSELF, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

9. "If he designates her FOR HIS SON [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.

The King James says "bethroded to his son" instead...

10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.

The King James says: "duty of marriage"...

11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

First of all, did the daughter have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son? No!

Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER'S AGE and younger than his son!! So he's probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father's age or even MUCH older) can marry her.

Check different Bibles and see what you get...

See also Numbers 31:17-18. Depending on the version, you will have "GIRLS" or women "CHILDREN". Moses tell the men to kill everything in sight but keep the virgin little girls for themselves. They are MINORS. KIDS. That means between 3 and 12 years old...

And I'm not even talking about the passage in which a woman is given to men by her master, to be raped, then when she comes back home, he chop her to pieces and the person who tell the story says it's a warning to all. And those passages in which God calls raping a woman "humbling" her. You can check all those verses in different Bibles...

Can you imagine a poor three years old little girl being married to a sixty years old man or his thirty years old son and that man raping a three years old little girl? Don't you feel sick to your stomach? I do. All I feel is burning rage towards God. They say that Jesus experienced everything we are going through. That all horrible things we've been through he has experienced it. Apparently not. He wasn't raped when He was in human form. He wasn't viollated and sullied. He should've experienced that, then He could finally repent and cry for what He has done to all those small, defendless little girls. Leaving them at the hands of those men and even commanding marriage and sex with minors. He didn't experienced being defiled by sin either, He didn't experienced being imperfect, making mistake as a human and falling flat on His face. No, He didn't experienced it all. Now, do you understand how I feel? I've been a victim too. I was between 8 and 12 and I was repeatedly abused. I prayed and cried and sobbed and begged and He didn't do anything, didn't answer once. But this isn't about me. This is about all the other little girls who were probably as young as four years old. No one came to their rescue and God condomn it all. And it's still going on today in some countries. Ever wonder why so many teenage girls end up commoitting suicide or flee their countries? Some of them were spiritually abused and terrorized as well. They were told that if they didn't comply, they would face God eternal wrath and everlasting torture in hell-fire. I suggest you read: "Spiritual terrorism", by Boyd Purcell. I've started reading it. Tell you what Molly. Find the Bibles that render the Greek and Hebrew as accurately as possible and if you find them, let me know. You said you would give me Bible verses, Micah? You can help with this. I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible. If any of you have material, articles, anything, send them too me. I want to settle this... or I'll never find any peace... I'm just so sick and so tired of living with all that rage... 

[Michelle]

"These folks here, myself included will give you scripture and verse for you to allow the Holy Spirit to work in and for you, but I assure you unless you yeild and give you yourself to what you have been given to seek......you will remain where you are looking in."

Please do, Micah...

[Lefein]

Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

[Michelle]

Philippians 2: 3-11

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.

The 1611 KJV has it right on that one:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Jesus was God in human form and He perfectly grasped who and what He was. That passage was incorrectly rendered in many Bibles. It's an insult and a lie to say that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. I'm sorry, but it's true...

[Molly]

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

[Michelle]

Michelle, there seems to be a lot of condemnation and bitterness in many of your posts.  Much of your acussational ranting is really unwarrarnted.  In "your" reasoning God despises women over men.  But none of your comments involve spiritual vision.  Even Scripture itself states that things written are types and shadows.  When Jesus spoke, he spoke in parables, which is the same as types and shadows.  In other words, what you see on the surface isn't the core of the message being told.  The message lies beneath the literalization of the words being written.  Paul calls it a mystery, which it is to our minds because it's not "for" our minds, but instead, it's intended to be received into our "spiriti". 

Your mind is demanding answers because, according to your mind, the way you're reading it, it appears to you to be a bunch of lies.  The truth is, God sees both male and femail as one.  They are "man".  But the symbolism there is, man represents spirit and soul/mind represents woman.  The laws of purification are representing the fact that the mind requires more effort to cleanse than your spirit. 

This extends from other posts of yours one of which that comes to mind is your accusation that because all "you" see is doom and gloom around you, God must be lying when we say he sees you through love rather than judgment.  Your mind . . .OUR mind can't grasp all that God is and the logic through which God operates in.  His logic is not the same as our logic because he is from above, an ascended place and we are born from below, which is flesh.  You can't use flesh logic to comprehend spiritual truth.  And when people try to answer your questions, you're not going to receive or accept them because you're not looking at things from His perspective.

The truth is, ALL our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west, which is to say . . it's out of our existence.  Our eyes will continue to see our sin as long as we are looking at life from a fallen state.  But when we let go of who we are and embrace who "he" proclaims us to be, we'll be able to see life where there is death and light where there is darkness.  And love where there is now bitterness.  Count it ALL joy.

This world is full of trials and tribulation.  Full of people falling short.  Full of everything that is flesh.  But we're to BE OF GOOD CHEER . . .we're to walk in celebration not because of all the sludge or that we've got our head in the sand from what's going on around us . . .but because we can see PAST the sludge and see that the power of Christ has already OVERCOME this world . . .we're not part of it . . we're in it, but we're not part OF it.  Fix your eyes on things that are eternal and these things around us that are temporal will no longer have any power over us.

Look, okay? I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed by Fundies for several year. I've been repeatedly told over and over again to take ALL scriptures literally. I've been toild that "so-called" deeper meanings was a lie, that God was not a God of confusion. You have no idea how many they quoted that verse to me. But the fact is that all I felt was confusion. I'm just BEGINNING to realize that literalism is a poison and certainly isn't from God. It's a deadly poison. Ever read: "Spiritual terrorism", by Boyd Purcell? He says that a guy called the spiritual terrorism related to the E.T doctrine, the spiritual walking zombie syndrome. Well, it just seems that literalism isn't any better. Another poison that kills and turn people into freaking spiritual walking zombies. I've started to read the book. I can afford to buy any book and several chapters are missing 'cause it's a Google book, but I take what I can get. If you want to read a few chapters for free, here it is:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=spwHeS3Rxl0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=spiritual+terrorism+boyd+purcell&hl=fr&ei=5T6ATcTtONLpgQfgyL2iCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

I've suffered all kind of abuses. No wonder I'm so screwed up. In fact, everyone is, to some degree. I've received the revelation about the truth of UR, but it just seems that some of the doctrines and false beliefs that I have been taught are firmly implanted into my mind and the worse thing is, my stupid carnal mind cling to them. I'm so exhausted. I'm so sick and so tired of all this nwo-end time-babylon-satanist crap. I don't remember who posted this because I'm too troubled to think clearly, I think it was Lefein. But I'm so tired of fighting the freaking satanic forces of Babylon, especially since I'm on my own to do it now. The only friend I had, a Fundy, barely talk to me now. I've been told by the Fundies that good Christians are supposed to be warriors for Christ, doing spiritual warfare, working themselves to death to warn and inform people from danger and deception. In fact, back when I was a Fundy, I was a Watchman on the tower. Now, what am I supposed to be? I'm caught between my old life and my new life. I've been a Fundy for so long and it emotionally, psychologically and spiritually damaged me, nearly even killed me. I've received a revelation from Jesus who told me to search and study the E.T doctrine and find the true meaning behind it all. I became a Christian Universalist as He eventually started teaching me UR through TM material and Gary's videos. What am I supposed to be now? Am I still a Watchman?

I have been taught that if I don't take my responsibilities as a Christian, people will be deceived and hurt because of me. Should I give up warning people entirely? Should I stop fighting spiritual warfare? Aren't Christians supposed to stand up to the devil? Focussing in Christ and positive stuff is a good thing, but what would be life without responsibilities and a fair share of spiritual battles? Being completely useless and doing, I could never live like that. I'm not saying that you're not doing anything, but life is kinda boring if you don't get your hands dirty once in a while. The Bible is full of scriptures about intercessors, people casting out evil spirits or prophecising. And God had works prepared for us in advance and if we had no work and responsibilities, we would be completely useless, so what would have been the point of God creating us, of us existing at all? The truth is I never was a good spiritual warrior. I either fell to sin or collapse from exhaustion. And a couple of times, I suffered from lack of faith, overtaken by discouragement or despair.

The truth is I'm weak, I always was. But I took my duty very seriously, and even when utterly exhausted, I kept getting back up, fighting, warning, informing. Because, I have this desire in me to stand up to evil no matter what. But once, I had this dream from God. I saw a man covered in chains and I couldn't help him. Then I found myself sitting in front of my computer. And there was a black cat in the room with me. He behave like a normal cat and wanted to be scratch. But I felt that this thing was very evil and not a cat at all. He tried to rub his face against me, but I pushed him away horrify. I knew he was a demon. When I pushed him away, he became furious and yeowled angrily. I knew he was going to attack me. I stood up to that demon and looked him in the eyes. I was determined not to move an inch, to stand my ground. Suddenly I was filled with pure, undiluted faith and I started saying the Lord's prayer. The cat-demon yeowled at me angrily and then he lept at me and started attacking my face with his claws. I looked him straight in the eyes and kept saying the Lord's prayer, standing my ground, not moving an inch, filled with such powerful faith flooding throught me that you couldn't even begin to imagine what it was like. I have never felt that strong in my entire life. Believe me, if we could run on faith alone, we wouldn't need strength. In fact, they are one and the same. The cat-demon just keep attacking my face with his claws, but he couldn't leave a single scratch on me. Not one. As I woke up, I heard the sound of chains being broken. I questioned my friend about my dream. He told me that the chained man was a human being, regardless of gender. That the man was me and that I had been freed from my chains.

Things started to change after that. I also had other dreams from God, a dream about broken shakles and another one that clearly was about Timothy 4:9-11. I now know that God was preparing to receive the truth of UR and preach a different Gospel. Those dreams didn't make sense at first. I thought they were about my true identity in Christ ("free" from chains or shakles). The truth is, even after six months, I still don't know who I am Him, my true identity in me. I've done Bible study, prayer, spiritual warfare, informing and warning, but even to this day, I still don't know who and what I really am in Him. So many Fundies claim to know who they are in Christ and what their true identities in Christ are. But they teach false doctrines and false teachings. I'm not saying it's your case, but from what I've seen, many Fundies do. Concerning myself, it just seems that my true identity in Christ will always be a mystery to me, just like so many other mystery. Just like the Triune God. Many testimonies say that God and Jesus stand face to face and talk to each others as of they were two separate entities, but they share the same light. All I know is that the three of them are one and the same. In fact, I have given up solving the mystery of the Holy Triunity a long time ago. Just TRYING to make a little sense out of it gives me a headache. It's the greatest of all mysteries and no one ever solved it. How could we, pathetic humans that we are, could ever fathom and comprehend it since we have finite minds and are stuck with our carnal minds till the day we die? Thank you for your advices. It helped. Can you please please give me some verses on the types and shadows and what Paul says about it?

O_o So when Paul said that women should keep silent in the church, he meant that those who are in Christ ("the church" should silence their minds to get closer to God in their inner temples???

And what to you mean He sees male and female as one? Surely He doesn't see us all as androgynous beings or he wouldn't say in the scriptures that a man who is being effeminate commits sin (and possibly the other way around though scriptures don't say anything about that). He even condemns cross-dressing. And what about celibate people? And to say that God see male and female as one would completely eliminate gender and deprive us of our identities. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. I just don't get it. Why can't God just see us for what we are instead of making things complicated and see us through His son's perfection when we are not perfect or as some sort of androgynous being when male and female are different??? The last thing I need is for anyone, including God to attack my gender identity. I have enough issues to deal with...   

[Michelle]

Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

That's called a spiritual crisis, Lefein. That must be the, oh, the thousanth one? I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed for years. I'm stressed out, exhausted and to top it all, my stupid carnal mind won't be a good little dog and stay put and always get in the way. Stupid piece of crap. Why are we stuck with that thing till the day we die? If I had a whip or a freaking leash. And on top of it, I just can't seem to stop thinking or a I don't think enough. And for your information, Lefein, I don't HATE God. I never did. The problem is people often confuse anger with hatred. I made that mistake a few times and found out that they were two different things entirely. The thing is, if you rely on your emotions, you will confuse them. Just because you're angry with someone doesn't mean that you hate the person. Like a mother can be angry with her son, it doesn't mean she hates him. I've been angry, even furious with God, but I never hated Him. Even when I bore a "grudge" against Him for not intervening, not protecting me from my abusers, I felt too betrayed and wounded to hate Him. I tried building a relationship with Him, from 12 to 14, but it wasn't my time to be saved. I gave up at 14 because I thought He would never answer me anyway. I had been put through too many horrible things and I was a kid, I didn't really understand religion either. I was preaching I false, toxic gospel when I got saved, six months ago, and for some reason (I just don't get it), even after I got saved, He let preach that false, toxic gospel (I will not even capitalize it). Only months later did He revealed the truth of UR to me. I will never understand why He let me believe such a vile, gross lie. Especially a lie that cause so much damage. Building a relationship with Jesus is complicated. Especially when you have a hard time communicating and when you nearly don't know anything about relationships and how to build them. Having a relationship with Him feels weird. I often have the feeling that I've known Him my whole life, yet there is something alien to Him. In the literal sense of the word. He is otherwordly. There are moments in which I can feel His love for me and that peace that passes all understanding. But it just seems that I'm dealing with too much stuff right now to feel anything else than the weight of my spiritual issues, some doctrines and beliefs that I can hardly give up even though they are poisoning me and my carnal mind that just seem to take advantage of the situation because I'm vulnerable. What Nathan told me helped. Some of your posts helped too.

If any of you want to pray for me, feel free to do so. Ask Him to deprogram me from all traditions of men and doctrines of demons that have been loaded into me by the church and Fundies. That will help a lot. I know I'm not always easy and I'm sorry 'cause I sincerely love you all, brothers and sisters...

[Michelle]

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

[Ross]

Hi;
1 John 3;1  " Look at the kind of love the Father has given to us that you are allowed to be called a child of God."

Christ is the son of God.
We are joint heirs with Christ.
You are achild of God.
Christ has died for ALL your sins.
He knew you the world began.
God is Love.
Christ came to seek and save that which was lost. He was 100 percent successful.
You are leaning what to value and what not to value.
God loves you.
1 John 4;4 " Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

May His love set you free from your present bondage.

[Michelle]

"They want to trade one institution for another. that is why so many universalists want Rob Bell to take the heat for them, Go Rob,  make christianity into our religion.  Quite sickening actually. The belief of God saving all mankind hasn't taught a lot of people much of anything."

What would be so wrong about that? Why preaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus to people if we don't want them to embrace Universal Restoration? You prefer them to remain in the E.T mentality? Christian Universalism was taught in church like 500 years ago. They had their own institution. They even had schools that taught it. It should be taught in schools and seminary too. So people who want to learn could study there and be taught with all the material they need. Isn't that what we want? To share the Gospel with other people? To see them embrace Jesus and Universal Salvation? 

[Michelle]

Michelle, please check you PM's and follow through on the suggestions.  Thanks.

James.

Okay. I will. Take care, brother.

[jabcat]

Michelle, please check you PM's and follow through on the suggestions.  Thanks.

James.

Okay. I will. Take care, brother.

Thank you, you too.

[jabcat]

Michelle, very impressive your learning English.   :thumbsup:

We have a member names Quasitor.  With French being your first language, check this out from his signature;

http://sauveurdumonde.jimdo.com
Still in construction
One of the first french UR website

God bless.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles.

Yeah, that is exactly what the people who you are mad at will tell you too. And that is my point,  you are only railing against what is convenient for you to do so about.  You are only stirring up whats in the same religious box and hoping it comes out in a pattern that lets you feel good about it.

[Molly]

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Michelle they are not.  This is talking about men and women.
Exodus 21:7-11

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.



Numbers 31 is talking about the spoils of war.  'Keep [the female children] alive for yourselves.'  What does that mean?  That doesn't say anything about hurting or raping children.  It says to keep the innocent female children alive.  The phrase ['for yourselves'] is not even in the Hebrew.  They are allowed to take the innocent female children into the tribe.  This passage is cross referenced to Deut 21.  They marry women, Michelle, not children.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive [for yourselves]. <---- added by the translator of KJV



Here are the rules in Deuteronomy on treating captives.  There's nothing here about taking children for wives, Michelle.  If they are treating women captives this well, what would make you think they would hurt children?



Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Marrying Female Captives
10"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

[thinktank]

See also Numbers 31:17-18. Depending on the version, you will have "GIRLS" or women "CHILDREN". Moses tell the men to kill everything in sight but keep the virgin little girls for themselves. They are MINORS. KIDS. That means between 3 and 12 years old...


Don't forget the customs, of back then. Most men would not be interested in minors, as it would be against moral conduct and also not appealing. I think the men would keep the girls until they bud, and that point the girl can then marry the man or leave. But after spending years in the company of the man and being looked after, with food and gifts, I'm sure that many of the relationships ended up in romantic affairs, bare in mind that when a man married in those days, he would be at duty to remain faithfull and so would by the community pressure, must be certain that he would love the woman, or otherwise he would have an unhappy married life for the rest of his life and he would not be able to simply leave her as simply as married couples do today.

Also bare in mind that merely surviving is a large part of existence in those days and people had to do what they had to do.
If it makes you feel any better bare in mind the poor men who had to become slaves to conquering armies, it was tough for both men and women.

It helps to know the history before passing judgement on those of the past. Today many people criticize the actions of the crusades etc, but know Nothing of the conditions of those times and I can imagine many of them doing exactly the same thing, if they lived in those time periods, whether going for glory, gold, duty or something else, they would be tempted beyond their understanding, since most today greatly pursue riches, I can imagine many going to fight for riches, many would claim, No they would not, but they do not understand the true reason why they do not go, because they possess the modern mindset, of using the mind a modern day pharisse, but had they had the physical and rough upbringing of the past, they would be ready and roaring and willing to die, if need be to make a bit of money to feed their familles or to escape.
Ha the heart of man is deceifull and wicked, but love shall overcome according to God.

[Miriam]

I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible.

The Young's Literal translation, which a number of people here use, is available online:

http://online-bible-study.net/youngs-literal-online-bible/

[Lefein]

12-13 was also the marrying age of the time.  People didn't marry at 20, 30, or 40.  Most people didn't live past 40, and there were many other reasons, namely health and security for which a girl was married at 13.  Boys were also pressured to marry young (of which I have no issues with, it is not a negative thing to marry young, and marrying at 30 or 40 doesn't automatically make it better) --- Boys who didn't marry by 18/20, were often thought to be cursed.

In essence, people married young, and it was just fine and dandy.  It wasn't until about 50 or 60 years ago in The West (America, England, France?) that marriages began to be held at the ages of 25, 30, 40 - even in the 1960's 16 year olds were marrying 25 year olds, and otherwise.  And this was also just fine and dandy.

The issue of age discrepancy (a cultural issue specifically, rather than purely moral) came around when people decided that sex was more important than marriage...

[Beloved Servant]

Philippians 2: 3-11

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.

The 1611 KJV has it right on that one:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Jesus was God in human form and He perfectly grasped who and what He was. That passage was incorrectly rendered in many Bibles. It's an insult and a lie to say that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. I'm sorry, but it's true...

The lesson here is that He stepped down from the Throne and made himself a servant.
He did not grasp His equality with a clenched fist but rather let go of it and became a man for the good of all.
It is in His steps we are to follow.
He never complained about the abuse, insults and disabilities He endured.
He despised the cross but , but for the joy set before Him — He suffered silently.

[jabcat]

The lesson here is that He stepped down from the Throne and made himself a servant.
He did not grasp His equality with a clenched fist but rather let go of it and became a man for the good of all.
It is in His steps we are to follow.
He never complained about the abuse, insults and disabilities He endured.
He despised the cross but , but for the joy set before Him — He suffered silently.

Amen.

[Michelle]

Now, this is extremely serious, guys. This isn't a joke. I have been doing research all day. I came across some infos that led me to other infos and so on and so forth, I've been connecting all the dots and it all fits. Now, you better sit down, because I'm warning you. When I'm through with you, you will not believe in the term "conspiracy theory/theorists" anymore. I have sent a message to my Fundy friend, with all the articles and videos I've found on the subject and I'm going to post it here, right now. When you are through reading those articles, watching those videos, connecting all the dots, you will find out that it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It all fits. This is extremely serious, so what I ask you to do is read the message, read the articles and watch the videos, and keep an open mind. I give you all the infos, so go through the, go through all the proofs, connect them and decide for yourself if it's true or not. It's a rather LENGHTY message, but I will stress it again, all the proofs are there, so please go through all of them, connect them and decide for yourself if it's true or not. Here's the message I sent to my Fundy friend:

"Some of his speeches say in reverse, "Hear my composite self for the Pharaoh Zeus!", "The mark that's now sooner" and "Marker will lavish you"...

http://www.thespiritmind.com/2010/05/14/obama-yes-we-can-thank-you-satan/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzU_rwY57iQ

Now, if I were you, Thomas, I'd get as many Watchmen on the job as I can. Some of them should get his songs and speeches, play them in reverse and see what they can get. Some of the videos on Youtube could be fake. There's always a couple of people who have nothing better to do than making fun out of other people, but so far, it seems that it's all true. You can also use the sound recorder on your computer.

Thomas, this is total proof that they are in league with THE SHADOW PEOPLE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kombnUflRJM

0:05 to 0:08, you can see the Shadow Man on the ceiling. As Obama is talking with the guy, the cloaked Shadow Man stands behind him. In fact, I think there are two entities in the room. One who stands right behind him and another one on the trail. Watch carefully. Those evil spirits have been oppressing me for ten years. I would wake up in the middle of the night, completely paralyzed, barely able to breathe as they fed on my lifeforce and my fear, on all the negative emotions caused by the traumas I've been through. Dabbling in the occult for three years in my teenagehood only made things worse, but I wasn't aware of that. I bought the lie "White" magic is good". Panic, fear, anxiety, anger, sorrow, it's all food to those entities. And the government is in league with them, so Shade was telling the truth about that. They are behind Project Blue Beam and know that all objects and living beings are made of electromagnetic energy. And I bet they know all about the torsion fields.Those people are being deceived. They think that because all objects and living beings are made of electromagnetic energy, if you control the E.E, you control the whole world, because you control what people are made of, their very substance. But they forgot that the only One who really is in control of everything is Jesus Christ. At the end of that video, you get a reverse speech that says he bought Bush and John McCain and they stuffed something inside him. Remember that video you sent me about the photo and the scar on his head that went all the way through his neck? That's obvious to me that he is possessed. Maybe he's been soul-scalped. Maybe that entity killed him and took over his body. How the heck could he have survived such a wound. Head and neck wounds like those are fatal. Obama is implanting subliminals into people's minds to manipulate and brainwash them. He even says in that reverse speech: "Thank you, Pharaoh." Thank you Pharaoh, Thank you Satan. And what about his reverse speech: "Hear my composite self for the Pharaoh Zeus"? Something's going on here. What do you know about the mysteries of Babylon?

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED052878&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED052878

Mmm...

Hey, take a look at this:

http://guidetoreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/spinoza-on-composite-self.html 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AuBnyWBvoHoC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=%22composite+self%22&source=bl&ots=QfBJ3Ee9d3&sig=cLaoQqoa1EeakaY_TLAFvnWl4RM&hl=fr&ei=F5SBTYCMHsGRgQeSu63SCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22composite%20self%22&f=trie

Oh, sh*t! Check this out:

http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/ScientificProof/restorationoflaughter_chap9.html

Oh, sh*t! What the heck is this!!!??? What the heck is Obama doing!!!??? Is that a freaking cult of the self??? That would explain his arrogant slogan: "Yes, we can." A minimum of self-esteem is necessary (calling ourselves, "imbeciles", "ugly-looking" and "pathetic" is unhealthy and damaging), but we are nothing without God. And the minimum of self-esteem we should have should be related to God. "I am a child of God, a beautiful creation of my Father", "I am gifted in that area, it's a good gift from my Father", etc. Appreciating ourselves as creatures of God, children of God. And we should always thank God for who we are and what we have. This whole New Age cult of self rob God from glory that belongs to Him alone. New Agers are obviously part of a religion of idolatry and self-worship. It's all about "the divine self", "Christ consciousness"... That's so sickening...

I know David Icke is a disinfo agent and He and his followers are not very bright, but listen to this:

"Also interesting is his reference to 'the Pharaoh, Zeus' when you consider the suggestions that Obama may be the clone of the Pharoah Akhenaton."

Mmm... Interesting... Don't you think? An evil spirit posing as Pharaoh Akhenaton... Some people think that Barack Hussein Obama is the second coming of Osiris, the Egyptian sun "god" (all false gods are fallen angels). They think that Osiris is the antichrist and was born as Obama or took over Obama and that he will sit in the temple of Solomon. I don't know why those people on the websites call it a "second coming". Probably another occult thing...

Check this out:

http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?19070-Subliminal-Messages-Of-The-New-World-Order-quot-Please-Free-Your-Mind-quot-Now!!!

"Subliminal messages are every where. Subliminal messages were made illegal in 1973 but these laws have not stopped big companies from advertising hidden messages in text, images, verbally or just plain blatantly.

Subliminal messages effect your subconscious mind and can encourage different types of behaviour. Scientists have not suggested subliminal messages as being a dangerous form of advertising but the implications subliminal messages can cause vary on the personal mental state of each individual that are exposed to them.

Subliminal messages can be used for a variety of reasons, advertising companies use them to encourage people to buy their product, military use them to interrogate suspected terrorists, the media uses them to condition our minds, movies and logos use them to build suspense and to identify their company as one.

Musicians use them for either a joke or satanic ritual. What ever the reasons and in what ever medium they are inserted into the reality of subliminal messaging varies depending on the intentions the suspected company etc are using this technique for."

"Subliminals have been documented to affect dreams, conscious perception, emotional response, drive-related behavior, verbal behavior, judgment, purchasing decisions, and pathology."

"Because many subliminal appeals deal with homosexuality, castration, bizarre sexual fantasies, skulls, daggers, and other death symbols, the subliminals must be creating anxiety, fear, and other negative emotions in the population. Subliminal messages are the cause of most psychological problems."

*Shrug* I bet they don't work when you're aware of them and when you plead the blood of Jesus Christ over yourself, you are cleansed, so anything bad that has made its way into your subconscious lose its power...

"Hypnotically induced amnesia: One can be instructed under hypnosis to forget something and then to forget that one has forgotten."

I bet that explains why I can hardly remember many things from my past. That along with traumas. People that have suffered many traumas are easy to mind-control, the Illuminati use that. But Jesus doesn't let these things affect me anymore and He always work it all out to our good anyway. They just can't win that stupid game because they have already lost...

Check what they have to say on the subject:

http://newworldorderuniversity.com/?p=5424

"Political leaders understand how to misdirect verbally while misdirecting using body language. If you watch them closely you can see how they do it, but first someone has to tell you that you are being deceived. Body language manuals and Neurolingistic Programming are the bibles of deception.)"

Neurolingistic Programming, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

"It was claimed that NLP was capable of addressing the full range of problems that psychologists are likely to encounter, such as phobias, depression, habit disorder, psychosomatic illnesses, and learning disorders.[9] It also espoused the potential for self-determination through overcoming learned limitations[10] and emphasized well-being and healthy functioning."

See, now, that's sad. That could be used for good rather than evil...

I have done some research. There is no Pharaoh Zeus. There are Pharaohs and a pagan "god" called Zeus, but no Pharaoh Zeus. (A reference to the supreme pagan "god"?)

That's interesting:

"There is scarcely a king (or would-be-king) in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharaoh—get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and all their children slaves forever."

Obama, the Rothschild's chosen Pharaoh (in four parts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsxARCpTLw

He has Pharaoh blood in his veins! So, Obama is possessed by an evil spirit (or many of them) and he's the Rothschild's chosen Pharaoh? That sounds bad. They want to recreate Exodus! The more I dig this stuff, the more scary it becomes. You might want to post the infos and videos in that message on your website. People have to know about this. This is bad stuff, very bad stuf...

Now, wait a minute! That flag in the video! It has a blue six-pointed star with a black "Z" and the word "Zionism". So that star really isn't a national symbol of the real Jews, huh? And that badge or whatever it is, with the sun and nazi cross. Huh? Hitler and Nazis were sun worshippers?

O_O Oh, my God!

http://www.rense.com/general84/brck.htm

http://gunnyg.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/update-the-first-time-i-heard-of-barackby-tom-fife/

Jackpot! "The first time I heard of Barack":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qGrWOsZrA

I just remembered! I have these on my Youtube channel!

"Obama was making a secret radio speech to his supporters ealier this week, he spoke in German in hopes of hiding his message from the rest of the people, however I have translated his speech for all of you here to listen to."

"From the first day I am sworn in as president I will be your god, and no one and nothing else!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2bIgfx4PXI

The secret satanic agenda of Barack Obama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVYKkFkbYs

It's all about fulfilling the biblical prophecies... They want to further their Babylonic system and enslave the world through a Pharaoh. But they forgot that the only One who's really in control is Jesus Christ. Boy, are they in for a surprise! His whole "messianic" agenda, his bloodlines (Pharaohs), his involvement in the occult, the fact that they planned his conception and birth, his speech about being the only god and quoting from a book about that kind of stuff, it all proves that he is the final antichrist. Connect all the dots and what do you find out? That it's all part of the same thing. It all fits... The whole "Maitreya" thing was only a distraction... to keep us busy from looking under the surface... He's the final antichrist. It's him, Thomas. Him and no one else. It all fits. He's the one who will sit in the temple of Solomon. Wanna bet that no other "candidat" fulfill all the requirements? It's a red alert. Tell the Watchmen, tell everyone and as fast as you can...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKWcqh2-V4&feature=related

Oh, damn...

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/2008/01/obama-to-disciples-you-will-experience.html

"Reading the recent flurry of stories about Barack Obama--the Clinton-slayer! the youth candidate! the next Kennedy!--it'd be easy to imagine that his campaign is all inspiration and little perspiration at this point, with rainbows and starshine bursting from the tailpipe of his tour bus. Obama both lampoons and slyly encourages the perception. In New Hampshire and South Carolina, for example, the senator was fond of telling audiences that "at some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, 'I have to vote for Barack."

What some people have to say about him:

"Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus."

-- Politiken (Danish newspaper)

"No one saw him coming, and Christians believe God comes at us from strange angles and places we don't expect, like Jesus being born in a manger."

--Lawrence Carter

"Many even see in Obama a messiah-like figure, a great soul, and some affectionately call him Mahatma Obama."

-- Dinesh Sharma

"We just like to say his name. We are considering taking it as a mantra."

-- Chicago] Sun-Times

"A Lightworker -- An Attuned Being with Powerful Luminosity and High-Vibration Integrity who will actually help usher in a New Way of Being"

-- Mark Morford

"What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation's political history"

-- Jesse Jackson, Jr.

"This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."

-- Barack Obama

"Does it not feel as if some special hand is guiding Obama on his journey, I mean, as he has said, the utter improbability of it all?"

-- Daily Kos

"He communicates God-like energy..."

-- Steve Davis (Charleston, SC)

"Not just an ordinary human being but indeed an Advanced Soul"

-- Commentator @ Chicago Sun Times

"I'll do whatever he says to do. I'll collect paper cups off the ground to make his pathway clear."

-- Halle Berry

"A quantum leap in American consciousness"

-- Deepak Chopra

"He is not operating on the same plane as ordinary politicians. . . . the agent of transformation in an age of revolution, as a figure uniquely qualified to open the door to the 21st century."

-- Gary Hart

"Barack Obama is our collective representation of our purest hopes, our highest visions and our deepest knowings . . . He's our product out of the all-knowing quantum field of intelligence."

-- Eve Konstantine

"This is bigger than Kennedy. . . . This is the New Testament." | "I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don't have that too often. No, seriously. It's a dramatic event."

-- Chris Matthews

"[Obama is ] creative imagination which coupled with brilliance equals wisdom . . . [He is] the man for this time."

-- Toni Morrison

"Obama's finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don't even really inspire. They elevate. . . . He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh . . . Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves."

-- Ezra Klein

"Obama has the capacity to summon heroic forces from the spiritual depths of ordinary citizens and to unleash therefrom a symphonic chorus of unique creative acts whose common purpose is to tame the soul and alleviate the great challenges facing mankind."

-- Gerald Campbell

"We're here to evolve to a higher plane . . . he is an evolved leader . . . [he] has an ear for eloquence and a Tongue dipped in the Unvarnished Truth."

-- Oprah Winfrey

"I would characterize the Senate race as being a race where Obama was, let's say, blessed and highly favored. That's not routine. There's something else going on. I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered. . . . I know that that was God's plan."

-- Bill Rush

Ugh! The cult of Obama. This is sickening and utter heresy... Those people are so brainwashed... I think I'm gonna be sick...

2 Peter cp 2 and Jude 1:9 make it very clear that we have no power to rebuke Satan and that even the Angels of God say, "THE LORD REBUKE THEE." May the Lord bring us all to humble ourselves before Him...

I have to go. I have other friends to warn. Take care of yourself, beloved brother and God bless you.

love,

Michelle." 

So, after careful and serious examination of all this, do you guys still think that "conspiracy theorists" are nutcases?

[Michelle]

About some of my previous posts, I'm really sorry about that. But some of the things that some people have posted really helped. Especially what Nathan said about types and shadows and parables. Seems like there's a lot of symbology and metaphore in the Bible. The problem is I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for years. I've been a victim of the traditions of men, doctrines of demons and false belief. I've been a victim of Fundamentalism, legalism and literalism. No wonder I'm so screwed up. And now, I'm a Christian Universalist because Jesus gave me that revelation of truth and led me there. But I'm caught between who I was and who I am. When you have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for several years, your have been programmed. Programmed to think what you think, to always do things the same way. You just keep repeating the same mistakes, always do things the same way. Do you know the saying: "The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results?" You can bet your bottom dollar that the one who said this has been in a cult. I've been experiencing this so I know what I'm talking about. I just keep catching myself taking all scriptures literally over and over, expecting different results. I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed for several years, programmed to do that. By the Catholic church, but especially by my Fundy friend. But it's not his fault. He only did to me what has been done to him, only teaching what he's been taught. This is the sad truth, James. Fundies and all those people are victims and they won't wake up until God wakes them up. We can preach the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to people, but they won't wake up until God wakes them up and then, and only then, will they start to understand the truth Gospel. But we can trust God, that He will remove the veil from their spiritual eyes. The ones who will be saved in this life, anyway. Gary said that most people will NOT be saved in this life.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-refuted.htm

"At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop the One who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)"

Once Jesus has removed the veil covering their spiritual eyes, then they will understand the Gospel we have preached to them. I keep hoping that at least some of my famiy members will be saved in this life, because I have no one outside the Internet to share this with. My grandfather and sister both are unbelievers. As for my mother, she is an idolatrous Catholic and a fake one at that. She completely rejects the Bible, saying it's a bunch of man-made lies to control the masses, she has horoscope books and a tarot deck. And she is for divorce, abortion, and gay marriage. She doesn't believe in the resurrection, Jesus' sacrifice and eternal life. For her, it's a only a beautiful lie to make life in this world more bearable. But she prays to Mary and dead saints. Yeah, go figure. She thinks there's nothing after death, but she prays to the dead. God clearly forbids communication with the dead, that includes praying to them which is idolatry and spiritism. People, like the first Christian Universalists did, can pray FOR the dead, but not TO the dead. The dead can't even hear the living. They are not divine. Once you have crossed over, you are completely cut off from this world. And God doesn't let the resting spirits (in Sheol) wander this world since they are in a better one. They will be in that place of rest until Jesus let them out. Now I don't exactly know how this works, but many supposed that the souls will remain in Sheol until Judgment Day, on which people will start undergoing their chastisement and refining in the LOF. But all the so-called spirits of the dead that wander this world and interact with the living are nothing but evil spirits posing as family members, friends and acquitances, sometimes strangers. You can read the medium, ouija board, channeling (true) stories. In many of them, people end up being deceived, attacked, oppressed, sometimes even killed by evil spirits. The worse kind of catastrophees befall them. God forbid attempts to communicate with the dead for a good reason, for the good of His children. I've been attacked and oppressed by evil spirits countless times in my past, I know what I'm talking about. If you know what's good for you, you'll stay away from that stuff...

As I said earlier, sorry about some of my previous posts. I'm praying to Jesus, asking Him to deprogram me from all the crap that has been loaded into me by the church and the Fundies, asking Him to remind me not to take all scriptures literally, to open my spiritual eyes to the spiritual meanings in the scriptures and to bring more healing into my life. I even asked Him to will a desire in my heart to completely quit smoking, to make cigarette look, smell and taste disgusting to me. I've read all the poasts in my thread and I'm very grateful that people have showed me my errors and gave some good advices. I don't know how long it'll take and how hard it's going to be, but I'm determined to change. With the grace of God, I will make serious progress, you have my word.         

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.     

I committed a terrible sin and that didn't help at all. Anything can be an idol to us if we put it before God in our lives. And I have put the doctrine of UR before God. I've spent nearly all my time studying UR material, reading articles, watching videos, completely fascinated with the Victorious Gospel of Love. I've been so busy with the doctrine that I have seriously neglected my relationship with the Lord and my prayer life. I overreacted. For many years, I've been taught that my family and I and nearly 99% of mankind was gonna roast in hell for all eternity or be separated from God forever. So, when God led me to UR, I became so amazed and fascinated by the doctrine and the material that I let it completely take over my life, to the point where I seriously neglected my relationship with Him and my prayer life. I seriously neglected Bible study as well. In fact, I have seriously neglected everything in my spiritual life in the last two weeks. I have dabbled in the occult for three years in my teenagehood and worshipped false gods. That's the second time I commit the sin of idolatry. I feel like slapping myself repeatedly in the forehead. Will I ever learn? This is so frustrating, no enraging. I just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again and I'm not even aware of it, until it's too late and all this because I've been endoctrinated, brainwashed and programmed. I just hate this. I'm not even aware of it. It became automatic. Am I just a slave to my religious conditioning? I just can't keep going around committing that type of sin again. I'm gonna ask God to show me mistakes and to help me not to repeat them again, to warn me when I'm about to commit one of those mistakes either through endoctrination or learned behavior so that I can caught and stop myself with his help before it happens. And people on the board have been providing me with good advices, especially Nathan. He's right. So I decided to confess my fault to you, guys and admit it. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm really ashamed of myself for committing that sin, but not to the point where I won't confess my fault to others and admit it. That would just be another mistake. If many people would just confess their faults to others like Paul and the other apostles did back then, instead of letting shame or pride get in the way, they would get very helpful advices and encouragements. And I know that's what I will find on this board. If I don't understand something, I will ask questions and listen to the answers instead of judging what I don't understand, getting angry and losing patience. I will also listen to advices and ask the Lord for HIS discernment so that I will know which ones to follow. I will save a copy of this message in my computer so that I can reread it when necessary and keep my objectives in mind. Prayers are much needed and most welcome. Also, any suggestion or advice on "how to deprogram yourself from religious brainwashing, false teachings and the resulting bad habits that come with those" is most welcome. That would help a lot. Thanks and God bless you, brother.

I love you all, brothers and sisters in Christ. Take care and God bless you all. :HeartThrob: :cloud9:       

[Michelle]

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles.

Yeah, that is exactly what the people who you are mad at will tell you too. And that is my point,  you are only railing against what is convenient for you to do so about.  You are only stirring up whats in the same religious box and hoping it comes out in a pattern that lets you feel good about it.

You want scriptures? I'll give you scriptures. And from many different Bibles:

Old Testament:

Leviticus 18:22:

NASB - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Amplified Bible - You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.

NLT - Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

KJV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

ESV - You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Contemporary English Bible - It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man.

NKJV - You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

New Century Version - You must not have sexual relations with a man as you would a woman. That is a hateful sin.

God's Word Translation - Never have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman. It is disgusting.

21 Century KJV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.

ASV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

YLT - And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is].

Darby Translation - And thou shalt not lie with mankind as one lieth with a woman: it is an abomination.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable.

Let's not twist the words in that one. That's homosexuality He's talking about, not just lying on the same bed...

Leviticus 20:13:

KJV - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

NKJV - If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

NASB - If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Amplified Bible - If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

NLT - If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

ESV - If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Contemporary english Bible - It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve.

New Century Version - If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, these two men have done a hateful sin. They must be put to death. They have brought it on themselves.

God's Word Translation - When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

21 Century KJV - If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

ASV - And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

YLT - And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.

Darby Translation - And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New Testament:

1 Timothy 1:9-10:

NASB - realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Amplified Bible - Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers, (For) impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine,

Those who abuse themselves with men, or, those who abuse themseklves with mankind, or, that defile themselves with mankind = homosexuals.

NLT - We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching,

KJV - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

ESV - understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

Contemporary English Version - We also understand that it wasn't given to control people who please God, but to control lawbreakers, criminals, godless people, and sinners. It is for wicked and evil people, and for murderers, who would even kill their own parents. The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching,

NKJV - knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Sodomites = homosexuals.

New Century Bible - We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are sinful, who are unholy and ungodly, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex, who sell slaves, who tell lies, who speak falsely, and who do anything against the true teaching of God.

Common English Bible - We understand this: the Law isn't established for a righteous person but for people who live without laws and without obeying any authority. They are the ungodly and the sinners. They are people who are not spiritual, and nothing is sacred to them. They kill their fathers and mothers, and murder others. 10 They are people who are sexually unfaithful, and people who have intercourse with the same sex. They are kidnappers, liars, individuals who give false testimonies in court, and those who do anything else that is opposed to sound teaching.

God's Word Translation - For example, a person must realize that laws are not intended for people who have God's approval. Laws are intended for lawbreakers and rebels, for ungodly people and sinners, for those who think nothing is holy or sacred, for those who kill their fathers, their mothers, or other people. 10Laws are intended for people involved in sexual sins, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for those who lie when they take an oath, and for whatever else is against accurate teachings.

21 Century KJV - knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for those who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.

ASV - as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

YLT - having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

Darby Translation - knowing this, that law has not its application to a righteous person, but to [the] lawless and insubordinate, to [the] impious and sinful, to [the] unholy and profane, to smiters of fathers and smiters of mothers; to murderers, fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers; and if any other thing is opposed to sound teaching,

Holman Christian Standard Bible - We know that the law is not meant for a righteous person, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and irreverent, for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching,

I also suggest you look up 1 Corinthians 6:9 in a dozen of different versions. And 1 Corinthians 6:9. 

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do not be deceived; Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate and homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9

Romans 1:25-28: Their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own body the due penalty of their error. (AIDS) Romans 1:25-28

You shall NOT lie with a male as one lies with a female: It is an ABOMINATION. The land has become DEFILED, therefore I have visited its punishment upon it so The land will spill out its inhabitants. - Leviticus 18

In Romans 1:26-28, Paul clearly describes homosexuality as the final stage of man's depravity. Of course, it has probably always existed, but it is now pervasive,
on a broad societal scale probably unprecedented in history.

It's a disgusting and hateful abomination in the eyes of God. He doesn't hate the sinners, but he hates the sins. Homosexuality is a satanic perversion. God didn't create people like that. It's caused by demonic possession, demonic influence and/or rebellion and disobedience. As for the unsaved, they are totally spiritually blind and dead, slaves to sin and Satan. God considers it sexual immorality and those who are sexually immoral will undergo a severe chastisement in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). I sure hope it's clear to everyone here that God condemn homosexuality. God created man for woman and woman for man. For familiy and conception of children. Look up all those verses in dozens of different Bibles and see for yourself. The YLT is one of the most accurate Bible when it comes to rendering the Greek and Hebrew. And there are dozens of other Bibles too. In the Bible, Jesus and Paul warn people not to cause other people to stumble and fall. Those who are saved can go to Him for forgiveness upon repentance. He will work in them so that they will feel sorry for what they did and and cure them. Nothing is impossible to God. He will not only forgive the homosexual, He will cure him/her like He did many. I suffered from that kind of attraction years ago and He cured me, He cured lots of them. As for the unsaved, God will eventually save them and work in them to cure them of that sin, just like He heal so many people of so many things. Nothing is impossible to Him. He doesn't hate the sinners, but He hates the sin. So those of you who have been defending the sin of homosexuality on ground of tolerance or for any other reason at all should repent and start preaching the truth about it. It's sin and disobedience... It's of the devil...

The bottom line is, there is no explicit reason in the Bible for why its wrong. It just says- very clearly- that it is an "abomination".

When we start throwing in our own rationalizations for WHY why we think God feels that way about this or any other sin, its just a pointless circular debate that never gets solved. Humans are flawed and can be wrong, God's Word is always true. So we are to take the Bible word on it. And really, we arent in the position to try and justify God's commands. He said not to do it. 

The *justification* you are looking for, is that God said it was wrong. End of story.

[Miriam]

I'm like you, Michelle, in that I'm having to rethink things that I thought were fundamental truths; this is not limited to the questions of universal reconciliation that we debate here. As an example, as I understand it, the word translated "abomination" means something made ritually unclean according to the Old Testament's Holiness Code and it also included things like eating certain foods and wearing garments made of more than one type of material; I am not convinced these are disgusting and hateful in the eyes of God.

On a practical note, I don't know how to stop my post being too wide for the page and apologise to those now needing to scroll sideways.  :mblush: Edited to add that now it's posted it seems ok...  :dontknow:

[jabcat]

I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

I leave the OT laws out of the discussion, at least partly due to context, the situation/relationship between God and Israel at that time.  I focus on the New Testament in this area, where IMO, Apostle Paul still makes it very clear to the ecclesia in the current "church" age. Personally my stance is this, from an earlier post;

"I am aware of the arguments over the words, including by the (what I consider) very suspect "Jesus Seminar" folks.  Based on what I've personally seen and studied (limited, I'm no scholar) I believe the translations of the following words  actually are accurate - not just the words themselves, but within a larger context of other scriptures, such as the few lines I end the post with -


I'll post the words and translations, but then also say that even without the specific words in question, the NT also defines the situation in other words -

The words and their references;

"Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "the words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.