Tentmaker Forum

:help: :help: :help:

When it comes to my walk with the Lord, something always get in the way. I have been physically and sexually abused as a kid and I bore a grudge against God for years because He didn't protect me and stopped my abusers, but I forgave Him. I'm still not sure why. What I do know is, that grudge was only hurting me and I had to let it go. And when you only have a sister that you rarely see and a mother who doesn't understand you, you crave love like a drug-addict crave cocain. But something always hinder my walk with the Lord. Why didn't He rescue me from the people who hurt me when I was a kid, when I was crying out to Him, begging for His help? Why did He ignore me and let those people hurt me, including my own family? Why was I only saved and born again at age 28? Why didn't He do it years ago? I have forgiven Him for that, but the questions still remain unanswered. Fundies keep telling me that I have no right to question God, but since I've been a victim for so many years and suffered that much, don't I deserve an explanation? As far as I'm concerned, I was only a kid and I didn't do anything to deserve beatings and mollestation. And something that is a major hindrance in my walk with the Lord is the Old Testament. That is something I try to avoid thinking about as much as possible. I didn't read much of the OT, just a few passages here and there. I'm still not done reading the NT. But I try to avoid thinking about the OT as much as possible. I just mentally back-file it, like some Fundies do with "eternal torment". So, in some way, I understand them. But the worst thing is, I'm not good at mental back-filling. In some cases, the more you try to avoid thinking about something, the more you think about it. And it's killing me. It's killing me because I cannot fully enjoy my relationship with God, I cannot rest in Him, in His love and it gets in the way of our relationship. It's putting distance between me and Him. Because I can hardly love Him when I read stuff like that...

In the OT, God was a mysoginist (no right for women, men could marry as many women as they want but women were stoned if caught with another man), He was for; infanticide; abortion (killing the fruit in the womb); pedophilia, slavery and freedom from slavery for males only:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36979

ABORTION:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God's intervention. "As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts...Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb."

Isaiah 13:18 "They shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children."

Exodus 21:22 "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. "

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. Considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man's child.

Where is the forgiveness when the phrase: "He shall surely be put to death" appears so many time in the OT?

Killing a man for gathering firewood on Sabbath day? Where is the forgiveness in this? There are much worse crimes, like rape and murder. But He condomned those things, didn't He?

Numbers 15:32-36 "Once, while the Israelites were still in the wilderness, a man was found gathering firewood on the Sabbath. He was taken to Moses, Aaron and the whole community, and was put under guard, because it was not clear what should be done with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must be put to death; the whole community is to stone him to death outside the camp." So the whole community took himoutside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord had commanded."

CHILD ABUSE:

Genesis 17:10-14 "...And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you..."

Genesis 22:9-10 "And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Numbers 31:18 "[Moses orders his army] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

I Kings 3:24,25 "And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other."

2Kings 6:28,29 "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son." 

CHILD MURDER, INFANTICIDE:

Exodus 4:22-23 "Then you must tell him that I, the Lord, say, 'Israel is my first born son. I told you to let my son go, so that he might worship me, but you refused. Now I am going to kill your first-born son.'"

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him (in other words: women that might be pregnant)."

1Samuel 15:1-8 "Now listen to what the Lord Almighty says. He is going to punish the people of Amalek BECAUSE THEIR ANCESTORS opposed the Israelites... 3-8 : With 210000 soldiers they killed all the men, women, children, babies, cattle, camels and donkeys."

2Samuel 12:11-19 "Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee ... the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die. ... And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. ... David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead."

2Kings 2:23-24 "Elisha left Jericho to go to Bethel and on the way some boys came out of a town and made fun of him. "Get out of here, Baldy!" they shouted. Elisha turned around, glared at them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces."

2Kings 6:28-29 "And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son."

Psalm 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance "O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

COPROPHILIA | SCAT, UROLAGNIA | WATERSPORTS:

2Kings 18:27 "But Rab-shakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

EXHIBITIONISM:

Isaiah 20:2-3 "At the same time spake the Lord by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot. And the Lord said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and Ethiopia; So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt."

2Samuel 16:22 "So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel."

2 Samuel 16:22 also count as rape...

He also commanded people to murder their families and friends. Where is the forgiveness in this? And more importantly, did they suffer beyond the grave? And HOW LONG? I will never obey Him in this. I will die before I kill anyone, especially my family...

FAMILY:

Exodus 32:27-28 "[Moses] he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours. The Levites obeyed and killed about 3000 Men that day.

Exodus 32:29 "Moses said to the Levites, "Today you have consecrated yourselves as priests in the service of the Lord by killing your sons and brothers, so the Lord has given you his blessing."

Leviticus 21:1-4 "No priest is to make himself ritually unclean by taking part in the funeral ceremonies when a relative dies unless it is his mother, father, son, daughter, brother or unmarried sister living in his house."

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?

Matthew 23:9 "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

Our human fathers also are our fathers...

Matthew 10:34-36 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law (sic) against her mother in law(sic). And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."

Is that loving your children and those they love and care about to set them against each others? Is it to say that He is behind the deterioration of my relationship with my mother and my sister? Then how could He love me and my family?

FLAT-CHESTED WOMEN:

Solomon's Song 8:8 "We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for? If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar."

GENOCIDE:

Exodus 32:27-28 "[Moses' orders to his army] he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands every one of you to put on his sword and go through the camp from this gate to the other and kill his brothers, his friends and his neighbours. The Levites obeyed and killed about 3000 Men that day."

Exodus 32:29 "Moses said to the Levites, "Today you have consecrated yourselves as priests in the service of the Lord by killing your sons and brothers, so the Lord has given you his blessing."

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him (in other words: women that might be pregnant)."

Deuteronomy 7:1 "When Yahweh your god has settled you in the land you're about to occupy, and driven out many infidels before you...you're to cut them down and exterminate them. You're to make no compromise with them or show them any mercy."

Joshua 6:21-24 "With their swords they killed everyone in the city, men, women, young and old. They also killed the cattle, sheep and donkeys. ... And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord."

Judges 20: A description of a battle, city-burning, no morals.

Judges 20:42-48 "... and them which came out of the cities they destroyed in the midst of them. ... And there fell of Benjamin eighteen thousand of the best Benjamine soldiers; ... and they gleaned of them in the highways five thousand men; ... and slew two thousand men of them. So that all which fell that day of Benjamin were twenty and five thousand men that drew the sword; ... And the men of Israel turned again upon the children of Benjamin, and smote them with the edge of the sword, as well the men of every city, as the beast, and all that came to hand: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to."

1Kings 20:30 "But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and there a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men that were left."

1Samuel 6:19 "The Lord killed seventy of the men of Beth Shemesh because they looked inside the Covenant Box."

1Samuel 15:1-8 "Now listen to what the Lord Almightysays. He is going to punish the people of Amalek BECAUSE THEIR ANCESTORS opposed the Israelites... 3-8 : With 210000 soldiers they killed all the men, women, children, babies, cattle, camels and donkeys."

Esther 9:12-16: The Jews slaughter enemies in an internal strife in the Persian empire, at least 75800 enemies are killed.

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

Revelations is full of genocides. Here are some.

Revelation 6:8 (the 4th seal) "I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 9:15 (the 6th seal) "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind."

Revelation 4th Seal and 6th Seal. Here'sa quick calculation assuming an initial population of 6 000 000 000:
1/4 are killed when the 4th seal is opened: 1/4 of 6.0 billion is 1.5 billion, leaving 4.5 billion survivors.
1/3 are killed then the 6th seal is opened: 1/3 of 4.5 billion is 1.5 billion, leaving 3.0 billion survivors.
Exactly half of Humankind are killed, and this calculation is only using TWO of the seven seals!

A homosexual was to be murdered, not brought to repentance:

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death."

It is proven that homosexuals are either possessed or under demonic influence. Ask a deliverance pastor. Many are not even aware that they are possessed or under demonic influence. They just think they were born gay or are different from others. Many just wish they were normal...

HUMAN SACRIFICE:

Genesis 22:9,10 "And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son."

Isn't that supposed to be pagan barbary?

To be continued...

Suite...

Those are just a few examples.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/tb.html

Did the Lord really Condomn rape, pedophilia, murder, slavery, mysoginy, woman abuse and terrorism? I recently preached the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to a young man over Youtube and refered him to the TM website. Do you know what he told me? He told me that He was an ex Christian Universalist. He told me, "Even if God doesn't plan to have 99% of all mankind tortured and roasted in hell for all eternity, He condomned so many horrors that I'm better off as an atheist." I felt kinda sorry for him. But when I read some of that stuff in the OT, It made me wonder. In some way, I understand the Fundies and my friend, Thomas. He's better at mental back-filling than I am. All this is seriously hindering my walk with Jesus. I have tasted His love, I walked in a state of pure perfect divine love for a few days, just like Gary and then, it wore off. I had to get that back. I would die if I didn't get that back. I've read two or three books to try and find out what to do. Some of those books, especially: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green say that the distance and separation is only an impression, an illusion, but most of what Jesus said about how to remedy to that is a bunch of Babel gibberish that I can hardly understand. I recently had a dream or vision in which I felt threatened by Him and I was scared to death of losing Him, of being separated or rejected. But the OT is poisoning my spiritual life and my relationship with Him and as a result, I distance myself from Him, reject His love and grieve the Holy Spirit. I suffer and cause Him pain. I come to you for help because I don't know what to think and what to do anymore. Did God really condomn and ordered these things or is it mistranslations and Bible corruption? Is there any TM material that really explain the OT and answer those questions? There has to be an explanation for this. There has to be. Someone help me, Please...

:BangHead: :CryBaby: :crywipe:   

And can someone look into this?

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

The KJV says the same thing. Didn't He condemn those who burned their children and said that such a thing never entered His mind? Mistranslation and Bible corruption again?

Edit march 9:

Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

The lowest is on earth: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#100

Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Since He murdered so many innocent babies, He should punish Himself in that way...

Hi Michelle,

You are asking a ton of questions here, and I understand what you're saying, and I can't answer all of them, but even if I could it would take a book to do it.  Maybe we could talk about the crux of what is bothering you and how you might deal with it?  Or try to break it down into smaller parts?

It sounds to me like 1) you are feeling a separation from God that is uncomfortable for you, and 2) there are things which you think God did in the OT that you do not approve.

Would that sum it up?

Regarding the separation piece of it--

You are not alone in that experience.  I think we all experience that--going through dry times, and calling out to him with no apparent answer, and so forth.  Given it seems to be a fact of life, the question is how do we deal with that?

First of all, because you have experienced his love, you are one of the rare people who know what it is.  That is a gift and a sealing and a promise.  So, first,  accept that for what it is and know that you are blessed.

In the last chapter of Revelation, we are told: 

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Rev 22:20

That word for 'come' in that passage is erchomai which means to 'come and go' and 'appear.'   The word for 'quickly' means 'shortly' but it also means 'suddenly.'  For me, this is describing how Jesus relates to me in my life.  He comes and goes.  He appears suddenly.  It's always powerful when he does.  Yet, I also know that I am surrounded by a cloud of witnesses and that he is always there with me, even if I can't always perceive it.

I've been following the case of Amanda Knox, if you know who she is.  She is a young American [age 23] who has been thrown in jail in Italy for 26 years for a crime she didn't commit.  I know she is innocent because I have read the details of her case and I have some experience with these things.  Recently, some heavy weight American experts have been coming to her aid, including, scientists,  DNA experts, and a retired FBI agent.  She was raised Catholic, but in her writings she doesn't acknowledge God, leading me to believe she is either atheist or agnostic.  Yet, I see Him working mightily in her life on her behalf, and I know for sure that some day--she will know this too.  She knows it now on some level.  She could hate and curse God, and blame him for what has been done to her, but she doesn't.  She signs her letters with a line from an Italian song,

I know I am not alone even when I am alone.

That takes a lot of faith when you are a young girl thrown in prison 6000 miles from your home  for what looks like the best part of your life, for something you didn't do.

Isn't that what is required of all of us?  Even though I am not literally in jail like Amanda, my life  is not so different from hers.  I am in a prison of sorts, waiting for him as he 'comes and goes' in my life. God is seeing a bigger picture than we are and what looks like disaster or separation or abandonment to us, as we see over and over in the Bible, is really his way of achieving his purpose for us.  They mean it for evil, but he will use it for good.

I know now [because of my experience with it] that he will always  'return' suddenly, in some surprising and utterly shocking and delightful way, even when I cannot see or feel or hear him in the present--I know this and I know you will, too.  This is something that we learn over time. So, don't despair.  You know his heart. We have to live through it to learn it.  So I have learned to have patience,  to wait and stay faithful and serve him, even when I do not know he is there.  I have learned to trust.

I know that I am not alone even when I am alone.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

"That takes a lot of faith when you are a young girl thrown in prison 6000 miles from your home  for what looks like the best part of your life, for something you didn't do. Isn't that what is required of all of us?"

Just like strength, we have no faith of our own. Our human faith is weak and insignificant. Only HIS extremely strong and infinite faith can sustain us. Faith is a gift from Jesus. It's not something humans can conjure up or really feed. We don't have that kind of faith, neither do we have the power to remedy to our lack or absence of faith. We are not enabler and we are not the Man-God. I'm talking from experience. even though I'm new at this whole Christian Universalism thing. I talk from experience because I have had a strong and intense "experience" and I now know that my human faith is just as insignificant and small as my own human strength. And Gary too is talking from experience:

"The above Scriptures are very positive statements the strength of which the planter of doubts wishes to weaken to rob us of our faith. There are just simply too many Scriptural proofs that make it plain that Jesus is Savior of the whole world, not just a piece of it for Satan to destroy the faith of those who truly DO have the faith OF Jesus. "Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith." (Heb. 12:2) If it is YOUR faith in Jesus on which you stand, the accuser surely has grounds on which to defeat you. If it is the faith OF Jesus from which the reader was born, then Satan may weaken your faith in the following Scriptures for a season, but eventually the Holy Spirit will draw you back onto solid ground…the faith OF Jesus, and away from your own faith which is but sinking sand."

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/ForceOrFreeWill.html

If Jesus care so much about our faith, then why doesn't He give us His extremely strong and unlimited faith permanently considering that our human faith is weak and insignificant? If He doesn't, then He can't blame us because He alone is an enabler, Deity, sustainer, etc. And if Satan suceed in seriously weakening "someone's" faith, then God gave him permission to do so, for Satan cannot do anything God didn't allow him to do. God is sovereign and supreme. Satan cannot act out of God's will. The story of Job is a proof of that. And only the Lord can allow Satan to rob us from HIS own faith. If the Lord care so much about faith, then why allowing something to rob us from HIS faith? I don't have that kind of faith, neither do I have the power to remedy to my lack of it. I am not an enabler and I am not the Man-God. As long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies when in the NT He says that "it would be better for people who harm kids and babies to cast a millstone around their necks and drown themselves than hurt any of these little ones." Contradictory much. You don't take it out on innocent very young children and defendless babies who don't even have sins because they are not accountable and cannot tell good from evil, you just don't. Such an individual in our society would be call a deranged person and an out-of-control fury at best and a sick, sadistic monster at worse. And what about punishing people for the crimes of their fathers or ancestors? As if it was their fault their fathers or ancestors did something stupid. And I thought He said a son wouldn't bear the iniquity of the father. Another contradiction. I need material on mistranslations in the OT, because that's what contradictions are all about. I'm starting to see a pattern...)   

What I need is material with explanations and answers pertaining to the OT. There has to be mistranslations and some Bible corruption in the OT too...

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

Quote from: thinktank on March 02, 2011, 08:03:52 PM
Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2011, 09:55:57 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

:icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Hi james

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Scripture dimentional - the carnal minded parents are ADAM[ Father] and EVE[ Mother] birthed of SIN, hence WE are to LEAVE our parents AND CLEAVE to OUR WIFE

Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

 :cloud9: @ Molly......I haven't read about her, but what little I saw on TV, I felt Amanda Knox was innocent too......

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 09:38:25 PM

Quote from: thinktank on March 02, 2011, 08:03:52 PM
Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

Yes I can see that view, but Jesus allways talked to his kinsmen, does that mean his messages don't apply to us?

That means when he says, "when you fast" That means only the Jews fast or perhaps a better example "when you pray, our father who art in heaven" since most christians pray, only few fast.

apologies Michelle for taking this thread offf topic some 0  :icon_flower:

Quote from: MichelleJust like strength, we have no faith of our own. Our human faith is weak and insignificant. Only HIS extremely strong and infinite faith can sustain us. Faith is a gift from Jesus. 

Exactly.  He has given her that faith.  She just doesn't know the source of it, yet.

QuoteIt's not something humans can conjure up or really feed.

well, Paul gives us a whole list of things we can do.  Pray without ceasing, keep looking at Jesus, renew our minds daily by the washing of the word. Jesus says, Take heart and believe.  Have courage!  Sometimes we just have to remind ourselves who we are and who he is.  Sometimes we need to be encouraged by our friends.  So, yes, like any athlete preparing for a game, we can work out daily.

QuoteAnd if Satan succeed in seriously weakening "someone's" faith, then God gave him permission to do so, for Satan cannot do anything God didn't allow him to do.

I think of Satan, in relationship to myself, as an opposer  who causes me to build my faith as I come against him.  He is like a weight machine relative to your muscles.  As you work your muscles against the machine, the muscle breaks down and then rebuilds itself stronger.  In other words, we become stronger only as we need to be.

QuoteAs long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies

This is something you have to take up with him.  Ask him to show you.  Knock, seek, ask.  But I don't think this is going to come to you all at once.  There are people who spend a lifetime studying the Bible.  Therefore, have patience and trust the God you already know.

Quote"it would be better for people who harm kids and babies to cast a millstone around their necks and drown themselves than hurt any of these little ones."

Yes. He is telling us how he feels about the children.   Do you really think Solomon meant to cut the baby in half?  He meant to determine who the real mother was, and without DNA, the only way he could do that was to look for which woman had the real love for the child.  She was the one who said, 'don't kill the child, give him to her.'

Likewise, I don't believe God ever meant to take Abraham's son for a sacrifice, yet, we see by this story how much Abraham loved and trusted God, and we also see the precursor of the cross, so that we can understand how much God loves [and trusts] us.  Abraham is saved from giving his son as sacrifice, but God isn't.

I am a very literal thinker, but both of those stories could be explained by others here in a more spiritual way.  I picked simple examples, but these things are deep and take time to work out.  We have whole threads on these topics.  Again, my advice is to bite off little pieces and chew them.

QuoteAnother contradiction. I need material on mistranslations in the OT, because that's what contradictions are all about. I'm starting to see a pattern...)   

What I need is material with explanations and answers pertaining to the OT. There has to be mistranslations and some Bible corruption in the OT too...

I don't believe in contradictions.  If I see what looks like a contradiction, it means I am not understanding something.  Nor do I require myself to understand everything.

I do read many different translations, because some are easier to understand than others.   But, in general, that is not to mean that I think big chunks of the Bible are mistranslated.  I don't.  I think if you take one thing at a time and ask what does this one thing mean, it will be easier to deal with than taking on the whole thing at once.  But, again it takes time and patience.

Quote from: thinktank on March 02, 2011, 08:03:52 PM
Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

He had small children and babies killed and pregnant women ripped apart. Give me a good reason why I should trust Him with my mother and sister? And give me a good reason why I should keep loving Him more than them if He ever do something horrible to them? I could never tolerate anyone hurting them, not even God. If something horrible happens to my mother and sister that I love so much, then I will never be able to love Him ever again, unless He forces me to...

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 09:38:25 PM

Quote from: thinktank on March 02, 2011, 08:03:52 PM
Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

:icon_flower:

TT :icon_flower:

Christ was talking to HIS kinsmen - whos FAMILY were based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED too- again relates to the carnal mind being subject to the SPIRIT-  :icon_flower:

O_o What are you talking about???

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2011, 09:55:57 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 09:38:25 PM
based in the Torah - NOT seeing The shadow who it LED to

:thumbsup:  ...and that's the subject here, isn't it?

:icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Hi james

Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Scripture dimentional - the carnal minded parents are ADAM[ Father] and EVE[ Mother] birthed of SIN, hence WE are to LEAVE our parents AND CLEAVE to OUR WIFE

The whole bride/wife thing is only a metaphore, an analogy. It has nothing to do with the marriage between a man and a woman. The "marriage" will be some kind of special very strong spiritual relationship between Him and His human children. No one will actually "marry" their own Father. Besides, that would be sick, unnatural and disgusting. People don't marry their dads. Some people take some passages of scriptures way too literally. And some people are really getting on my nerves with the "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs. This is just wrong. Just like those people who say they are "in love" with their heavenly Father. People should love their Father, not be "in love" with their Father...

:eeew:

Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2011, 10:09:37 PM
Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

Is that supposed to make all right the murdering of small children, the smashing the heads of babies against rocks and ripping pregnant women apart? I don't call pregnant women, children and babies "barbaric enemies". And I really don't see how such horrors could be for our teaching. Instead of defending Him at all cost, people, you could provide me with articles or material about mistranslations, misinterpretations and Bible corruption pertaining to the O.T. I haven't find any yet.

And it's not an actual "wedding" and our heavenly Father is not our actual "bridegroom". It's a stronger kind of spiritual relationship between Him and His human children...

:eeew:

I suggest you study these things for yourself.

Christ is pictured as the "bridegroom", but the wedding is not an actual wedding. It is the actual day when Christ is united with all those who have been washed clean.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage: but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Quote from: Taffy on March 02, 2011, 11:46:30 PM
apologies Michelle for taking this thread offf topic some 0  :icon_flower:

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart. If the Church and the Jerome conspiracy are behind the E.T doctrine and there is Bible corruption in the N.T, then it must be the same thing about the O.T. And if you take some of the O.T passages and some of the N.T passage, you see that they contradict each others. Like Jesus saying that would be better for a man to get drowned than hurt a child or a baby, when the Lord in the O.T supposedly took it out on innocent little ones. If anyone find any kind of material, please send it to me. ESPECIALLY material written by Christian Universalists. But it's not like the Damnationists would ever search these things for themselves. All they ever do is accept anything they hear from the church or read in some english translation of the Bible and pretend that it doesn't prevent them from sleeping well at night. Well, yeah, I just had another fight with my Damnationist friend. He said that Christian Universalism was nothing but propaganda and false teachings, that the english translation (namely the KJV) was the "innerant" Word of God and he said I was listening to the antichrist posing as Jesus. Nice. "The" antichrist, just like Adam and Eve and those who crucified Christ represent the whole of mankind. The antichrist is the carnal mind in all of us that is enmity with God. Those who are still unsaved or saved but walking in the flesh are antichrist aka carnal-minded. That was a revelation to me from the Holy Spirit. I tried to tell him that but he won't listen. I also told him that I have known true love, peace, joy and happiness in the last few weeks and manifested more fruit of the Spirit ever since I have received the revelation of truth about UR from Jesus. But according to my Damnationist friend, I'm being deceived by Satan. And he's just so full of pride and self-righteouness. He's just so proud of "HIS decision to follow Jesus", of "HIS choice to be saved". He puts me under his feet and look down upon me...

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-PrideAndSelfRighteousness.html

"A self-righteous religious person is self-justified. Their salvation is really dependent upon "their" works. They may mouth "saved by grace through faith," but they are empty words. A self-righteous person will always have people they can look down upon. After all, some people work harder for the Lord than others. While they may not voice it openly, those deemed to be outside the "saved" camp become secretly despised. Since God is going to deal with them in very cruel ways, the self-righteous person feels justified in copying their God of wrath. This self-righteousness then becomes a mountain of people under their feet, so to speak, a mass of people to look down upon as despised, forsaken, despicable. This mass of people can be compose of other denominations, people with other doctrines and creeds, entire nations, various personal preferences, or a host of other reasons to place these people in the "not saved" or "unjustified" camp."

That's exactly what he does. I'm afraid that soon, he's going to discard me as if I was nothing, like our friendship was nothing. And as always, it's going to hurt like hell and since I'm struggling with so many things, including the O.T, Jesus will probably have to put the pieces back together by force this time. I am so sick of losing friends and being rejected. People say they are your friends, but the second you have different beliefs, views or opinions, even based on historical and scriptural facts, they dump you. If you have any kind of difference at all, they walk away from you. They say they are your friends, but they only are there for better, not for worst. I sure hope Christian Universalists are different...

"As long as I won't find explanations and answers for all those evils and horrors He condomned and ordered in the OT, I will be hindered in my walk with Him (especially taking it out on innocent little kids and babies."

"This is something you have to take up with him.  Ask him to show you.  Knock, seek, ask.  But I don't think this is going to come to you all at once.  There are people who spend a lifetime studying the Bible.  Therefore, have patience and trust the God you already know."

:sorry: :crywipe::surrender: :Pray: :bowing:

(http://lorimoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jesus_hugging_woman.jpg)
(Artist: presently unknown)

 :icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

QuoteYou aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

Michelle, as to your friend saying the KJV is the inerrent word of God, ask him which version?  You probably won't get anywhere because KJV-only types are highly indoctrinated.  I've had a lot of experience with them, and you want to talk about a cult mentality, yikes.  But if you do want some ammo theres plenty out there.  One is that it has been revised multiple times.  Thus the question which version is inerrant.  Really it gets down to manuscripts.  I believe the translator of the KJV only had a couple, which have been shown to be quite wrong with all the manuscript evidence we have now, like from the dead sea scrolls. 

How is it inerrant if it has to be revised???  If he's a 1611 KJV only guy then good luck :)

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me

There are mistranslations. the greatest being HELL and eternal - along with many minor ones by comparrison-

Blessings :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 02:47:39 PM
:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

That looks like a very cool site.

But I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.  :winkgrin:

QuoteBut I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.

:icon_flower: :happygrin:

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 03:23:58 PM

QuoteYou aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

One thing I've thought about all this Taf, is that also all the OT things are temporal/temporary, in the sense that all those people will ultimately be restored/made new in the kingdom - for eternity - which will make what they went through in their brief life (although sometimes horrible, as we humans perceive it) not even a drop in the ocean for them.  Same for us (thank Him for His blessings). 

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  Romans 8:18

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 06:17:56 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 03:23:58 PM

QuoteYou aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

One thing I've thought about all this Taf, is that also all the OT things are temporal/temporary, in the sense that all those people will ultimately be restored/made new in the kingdom - for eternity - which will make what they went through in their brief life (although sometimes horrible, as we humans perceive it) not even a drop in the ocean for them.  Same for us (although we thank Him for the blessings). 

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  Romans 8:18

AMEN Jab :icon_flower:

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

Quote from: Michelle on March 04, 2011, 11:49:55 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 02, 2011, 10:09:37 PM
Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

Is that supposed to make all right the murdering of small children, the smashing the heads of babies against rocks and ripping pregnant women apart? I don't call pregnant women, children and babies "barbaric enemies". And I really don't see how such horrors could be for our teaching. Instead of defending Him at all cost, people, you could provide me with articles or material about mistranslations, misinterpretations and Bible corruption pertaining to the O.T. I haven't find any yet.

And it's not an actual "wedding" and our heavenly Father is not our actual "bridegroom". It's a stronger kind of spiritual relationship between Him and His human children...

:eeew:

I suggest you study these things for yourself.

Christ is pictured as the "bridegroom", but the wedding is not an actual wedding. It is the actual day when Christ is united with all those who have been washed clean.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage: but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Michelle, you're angry, but people are trying to help you.   The marriage/bridegroom etc. is symbolic language.   

I don't think there are the mistranslations you appear to be looking for, that is, if you're hoping things in the OT aren't true or have been distorted beyond current recognition.  I believe folks have said some good things to you, again, trying to help. 

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 06:28:17 PM
I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Hi Michelle, I stopped by Tents today (have not been here in a long while, had to reregister in order to post today) and read your concerns here and was prompted to write you. Many, many questions Michelle,  I have asked many of those same questions Michelle and although I cannot answer all of them, I will give you what I have received.


Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.  

A few examples:

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.

Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read

Numbers 30:2
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. 

Deuteronomy 23:21
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.


However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay.

Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Jesus' words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.

A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.

First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the  law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?

Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.

So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.

We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21

Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.

Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Jesus' words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.


Take note of  what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42

Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.
Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?
NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.
So what is going on?
Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?
Most probably, this saying by the lying Scribes was a new saying in Jesus' time and would have been added by them but Jesus forestalled them from adding this saying by telling us to love our enemy.
No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?

Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won't do it.

And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.

Witness 1Jn.5:7

Witness Mk.16:9-20

Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.

Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.

Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.

Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.
First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.
Michelle are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.

continued....

Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

Pneuma that was beautiful, what about "all scripture is God breathed"?  I was lockstep with you until that popped into my head.  A thought that even in the scribes lying pen, Father being who He is used those stories as patterns for us, (which would lead me possibly to the conclusion that they misunderstood, since He was laying the pattern and they carnalized it) either way What man meant for evil God meant for good.   :HeartThrob:

Gary will be posting on this OT issue soon.  He has studied it extensively, has a heart for those struggling with these issues (who doesn't?) and has some points he'd like to make that honestly, are different than some of the views pneuma has presented.  Textual criticism is such a slippery slope, some just take advantage of the opportunity and things deteriorate quickly. 

Love and grace prevail, and the desire is to minister and pursue the truth.   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Michelle on March 04, 2011, 11:19:20 AM

Quote from: thinktank on March 02, 2011, 08:03:52 PM
Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

He had small children and babies killed and pregnant women ripped apart. Give me a good reason why I should trust Him with my mother and sister? And give me a good reason why I should keep loving Him more than them if He ever do something horrible to them? I could never tolerate anyone hurting them, not even God. If something horrible happens to my mother and sister that I love so much, then I will never be able to love Him ever again, unless He forces me to...

I think perhaps you are relying too heavilly on human minds to explain the divine. I.e putting trust in me that I will be able to deliver a message. Put not faith in the arm of man but in the living God.

One thing I think is that Gods love is different to human love. I think that people can love more than God in some instances, by being inspired to save people, feed them etc in their limited power, while God sits in heaven with all his power, to deliver, drinking tea.

I think it helps to know that God is the one in charge so to speak, and even though things ideally could be much better, doing this in reality is beyond human capacity. I.e how can man create an earth, or formulate dna patterns, we simply do not possess the power. The good news is that the force that controls the universe is not eternal evil, I mean in this world look how hitler etc gained power, imagine if something of his character was God.

So even though God is not ideal in many cases and falls short of our expectations, he is the best we got, and on another level is actually beyond our ideals, because the thought that the force, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob that governs and spans the universe, is actually interested in our puny lives, is mind boggling. Also earlier I said God is ding nothing and drinking tea, may seem to be the truth at times, but I know that God works very hard to bring blessings into people's lives (That's a lot of people 600 billion?+ kids, to take careof!!!!), not only when he walked the earth, but also when he is in heaven.

So I think maybe a good attitude for you would be similar to Jobs, the lord giveth the lord taketh. Would that work for you?

AAARRRHHHHGGGHHH!
I posted a reply to Michelle and Pneuma that I was almost finished with, walked away, went into a couple other programs and came back here and lost all my post. So how I gotta start all over again. grrr. This will be a shorter version than what I originally had in here. My fingers are getting tired. This will not be edited so expect many typos.

First, Michelle, I surely understand your statement about why God doesn't save us at an early age. God revealed himself to me at age 37. I used to wish he could have spared me much childhood misery, but today, I see that misery has served a purpose, a good purpose. I've discovered God "works" all things to my good and He will work all your pain and suffering to YOUR good in due season. And He will wipe away all your tears. He knows each tear you've shed individually.

Now regarding the many verses of the Bible you quoted that do not make sense to you if God is truly a loving God. There are many who have advocated things like pneuma suggested, lay the blame for these gross appearing verses to the "lying pen of the Scribes." I don't think this works for a number of reasons and I can't get into much of what I'd like to say to you because it truly fills a book which I've been developing in my mind for a long time.

The prophets who wrote the Law and the prophets did not understand what they were writing. Some asked to look into the words, but most were not allowed understanding. Moses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross.  That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.

Some say, all the O.T. are simply myths borrowed from the Egyptians or the Babylonians and modified to fit the Jews. I've read many books and articles on documentary hypothesis, JEPD theory, etc. I've watched many documentaries and videos saying Christianity and Judaism is based upon ancient myths, that we shouldn't really take the scriptures, especially the O.T. as divine.  Believe me, I have in my library much material (and I read it) that casts a very dark shadow over the Bible, especially portions of the Bible that speak of genocide, strange rituals like stoning your rebellious children, etc. But over the years God has given me much light and understanding of parts of the Bible that seemed at first to be just ridiculous and barbaric stuff. Many want to attribute what they don't understand  to the "lying pen of the scribes." I think that's a mistake too. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law (first five books of the Bible) would be removed from the law till all things be fulfilled.

On the road to Emaus after the crucifixion, were two of Jesus' disciples quite discouraged. Jesus appeared to them but was not recognized. (that's important). He then explained to them the crucifixion in the light of the law and the prophets. He opened to them understanding. Well these disciples obviously KNEW the scriptures. They probably had large chunks memorized, but they did not truly see them in the light of revelation. When He explained things their hearts were burning. When Jesus broke the bread, their eyes were opened.  Michelle, many Christians and universalists at boards like EU, WU and CU are saying one can throw out from the Bible what doesn't make sense or does not conform to one's concept of a loving god. Folks are saying to just go by your conscience or inner voice and decide for yourself what scriptures are divine and what aren't. They are calling Kaballah and Zoar (Jewish mysticism) as divine as the Bible. They are mixing all kinds of nonsense with whatever part of the Bible they have decided they want to embrace and making customized religions after their own carnal minds. I've seen many Christians who have embraced universalism go down this path and its end is not enlightenment.

Yes, on the mount of transfiguration the voice said "This is my beloved Son, hear HIM" and Moses and Elijah faded away in this VISION. Yes, the law and prophets (shadow) must give way to the LIVING WORD of the Son of God. But that doesn't mean the Law and prophets didn't serve a purpose in God's plan. One cannot understand the book of Revelation without understanding the O.T. because Revelation quotes the O.T. over 200 times.

Look, those who wrote the O.T. didn't understand what they were writing, the 12 apostles who knew Jesus after the flesh didn't understand Moses and the prophets even though they felt they kept Moses law. It wasn't until Paul who did NOT know Jesus after the flesh but after the spirit that the light of the law and prophets began to break open. Paul saw allegories where children saw literally. Hagar and her son was an allegory of the Law. CAST OUT Hagar and her son (the law) and see the promise. The letter kills but the spirit makes alive. Paul began to explain the law and Moses in an entirely new light. The law was made not to help one to be righteous, it was made to make sin even MORE sinful. Those who were under the law never really comprehended the purpose of the law. And neither do those today who want to throw out the passages of the O.T. that seem barbaric and unloving.  Under the law, God was an outside entity to be feared. A God of the outside that is sensed through a carnal mind through the five imperfect senses of the body will ALWAYS see God through fear. Our natural minds are programmed biologically to lie. It cannot comprehend God regardless of how the Bible is written. So to the degree that we are "natural" (and believe me Christians including universalists) are far more "natural" in their understanding of God and the Scriptures than they care to see, one cannot truly see or understand God. The Scriptures are spiritual.

Yes, Jesus said, "you have heard it said...." (Moses) but I say to you." Yes, there is a NEW commandment, a NEW law. "As I have loved you, love one another." It's a higher law, the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus." We are not to serve the Mosaic law, but when we see the law and prophets through the Revelation of Jesus' spirit, the law will serve us in seeing what the pattern was pointing to. The shadow of the law and prophets still has much to teach us. And to thrown it out because the veil of Moses is still over one's eyes is foolishness. We are not to come UNDER the Mosaic law, for it will blind us. But when we look at the Mosaic Law from above we gain wisdom.
The O.T. was written in Hebrew a highly exaggerative language which is very different from English.  Bullinger lists over 200 different types of figures of speech in the Bible with thousands of examples. Unfortunately, we have been taught to read the Bible literally. Big mistake.

Look, I can't take any more time here, I've got to get back to my projects I have to finish today. I'll gladly talk personally to you, Michelle or you pneuma about textual criticism and the dangers of going down the path of throwing out stuff in the bible that doesn't suit your personality, your lifestyle, or education or whatever. I know where that mentality leads and I don't think it's helpful or healthy. We purposely do not allow threads on this board on that discussion on the topic of textual criticism because I know the food fights that ensue. I really do understand those who feel they have a right and obligation to throw out the parts of the bible they do not like, I've read their posts, I've spend a lot of time dialoging with them, I've read many books supporting the idea of relegating parts of the O.T. to myths and superstitions but believe they are wrong because God has given me a lot of light on verses that used to choke me in the past that now make a lot of sense to me.

God has a plan, a blueprint. It's hidden in the Bible. For those who can read God's language of symbols, the blueprint makes perfect sense. A blueprint usually has many pages to it each page dealing with a different aspect of a house. One page may be plumbing, one electrical, one walls, one for the first floor, one for the second, one for the foundation. Each one has language and symbols for that page that a technician familiar with that trade can understand. Just because someone cannot understand the symbols and diagrams on a particular page (or a particular covenant) that deals with electricity doesn't give them the right to throw out that page. THAT is what is being proposed by many who post on some universalist discussion boards. Because they read carnally and are wise in their own eyes, they throw out pages of God's precious blueprint and encourage babes in Christ to do the same. This is WRONG. And that kind of teaching will not be tolerated here at Tentmaker because it is harmful. These discussion boards are not set up to discuss anything and everything. It's not set up to be a chit-chat site. It's purpose is to help people understand that Jesus will save all mankind and that the Bible teaches that. The focus on this discussion board is universal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is biblical. That's it. We don't deal with thousands of other subjects some of which cause BIG food fights. Textual Criticism is one of those big food fight topics.

I want you to know, I've been to the skeptics, atheist, secular humanist pages that feature the kind of verses you presented in your list. I've engaged them in conversation. I know their mind. I was an atheist for many years. They cannot understand where I am coming from because they do not have the Holy Spirit. The Bible is foolishness to them, Old AND New Testament. I understand that. But there is something inside of me that is bigger than me, bigger than my understanding, bigger than all the doubts and fears of this realm. It is bigger than my understanding or lack of understanding of the Bible. Do not throw out what you do not understand. Cry out for understanding. The Spirit of Truth sent by Jesus to give you what belongs to Jesus and to yourself, will give understanding in due season. Patience has its virtue, but children, whether in the natural or spirit lack it.

I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have  "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness.

Well, like I said, Michelle and Pneuma, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum. Thanks, peace and love. Gary Amirault, the one responsible before God for what goes on here.

Gary has asked both Scott (pneuma) and Michelle to speak with him personally.  His desire is to minister, be of help.

Amen.

Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
:help: :help: :help:

When it comes to my walk with the Lord, something always get in the way. I have been physically and sexually abused as a kid and I bore a grudge against God for years because He didn't protect me and stopped my abusers, but I forgave Him. I'm still not sure why. What I do know is, that grudge was only hurting me and I had to let it go. And when you only have a sister that you rarely see and a mother who doesn't understand you, you crave love like a drug-addict crave cocain. But something always hinder my walk with the Lord. Why didn't He rescue me from the people who hurt me when I was a kid, when I was crying out to Him, begging for His help? Why did He ignore me and let those people hurt me, including my own family? Why was I only saved and born again at age 28? Why didn't He do it years ago? I have forgiven Him for that, but the questions still remain unanswered. Fundies keep telling me that I have no right to question God, but since I've been a victim for so many years and suffered that much, don't I deserve an explanation? As far as I'm concerned, I was only a kid and I didn't do anything to deserve beatings and mollestation. And something that is a major hindrance in my walk with the Lord is the Old Testament. That is something I try to avoid thinking about as much as possible. I didn't read much of the OT, just a few passages here and there. I'm still not done reading the NT. But I try to avoid thinking about the OT as much as possible. I just mentally back-file it, like some Fundies do with "eternal torment". So, in some way, I understand them. But the worst thing is, I'm not good at mental back-filling. In some cases, the more you try to avoid thinking about something, the more you think about it. And it's killing me. It's killing me because I cannot fully enjoy my relationship with God, I cannot rest in Him, in His love and it gets in the way of our relationship. It's putting distance between me and Him. Because I can hardly love Him when I read stuff like that...

I'm sure you've had lots of great answers already, but I couldn't not answer. And it might be a long post cause I feel a whole pile of words like a pile on top of my head waiting... I've been through the same like these as you have with a few other things thrown in and I needed deep healing along with weeping, I think it was a concurrent thing. I had many of the same questions you have. I was very blessed to be a stay at home mom and had a lot of time for a few years to overcome depresson, to really pray and study, seek truth and wait upon the Lord for all these things. Some of the things I learned just knocked my socks off, and put me in a very solid place. You know, God isn't responsible for the bad. I know you know that.. Those things about the Old Testament, I want to get into that too, but first I think it's good to always know that every fear, every negative is a lying spirit, or spirits. I'm serious, and just relearned this myself, been having troubles with the negatives running through my head (at my head) as I'm going thru, don't say it out loud, menopause. I am not a happy camper lately, but the Good Lord is reminding me of all the strengths which are in the Truth.

God is life, itself, the life force, breath and spark of life, who, or what else could be? "In the beginning - God." And He is also Perfection. Otherwise, He Himself would also fade as all other things do.

About the human story/experience, mankind as a whole: He could see all things from the beginning.. the end(s) of every possibility. (He knew how every possibility would end and result.) He has done all things in order to bring about the very best thing/reality possible. One thing He did was He chose to endow thinking ability. Now this is a real Pandora's Box, for with thinking ability, comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices. Yet, if God is Life and Perfection, as soon as someone chooses any little thing other than what God chooses, they begin that journey away from Perfection. (Which is the opposite of life!) When He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be'. (But what was His other choice? No rational creatures ever anywhere..?)

Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur. Why(?) would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not making robots, or an ant farm, but the best, a family, and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable, because deply etched upon every heart, mind, and psyche, will be the full understanding of good from evil / life from death. (Life from death.)

This whole thing, human history, is an unavoidable journey/lesson, if there's to be thinking ability that is.

Why did God wait so long before creating the universe and man and woman, only creating them not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but had matured into hidden trickery and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did! (And I say waited long, because surely when there was 'only' the Father (His Spirit/Presence) the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about... so likely took a while. He did it just that way so we all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson together.. rather than one now.. another later.. and so on.. and so on.. virtually taking for ever..

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same.

You and I, so very thankfully, have been chosen, through no goodness or wisdom on our part, to be part of that Oh so Glorious 1st Resurrection. Many others will be part of the not as joyous 2nd Resurrection (though I'm sure it catches up). They will have an agelasting time "away from the Presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power" - 2 Thess 1:9, during that long 'day' of the examination of all things, all human history, etc, when "all the books will be opened" and "nothing will be left uncovered that is hidden". [side note: It's only after all this, that they will hear the notorious words "those not believing will go to the second death". By time all that, who's not going to "believe"?]

Revelation 21:5 - "Behold I make aLL things new."

Some of the things you wrote about the Old Testament are not true, others are partly true. If by pediphylia, you meant how the first children of Adam and Eve had to marry one another, it wasn't incest/dangerous then because the DNA threads/possibilites had not been separated and narrowed down.. Adam and Eve lived very long lives and likely birthed an outrageous amount of children! I'm sure Leviticus 18 expressly forbids pediphylia! Lots daughters produced with Lot. Their choice. Not God's. Not even Lot's. They thought Lot's line would die out.

Some Old Testament laws though seeming narrow to us, were actually meant for women's protection. And, what God said to men was "don't multiply wives". No where did He tell them to have more than one wife. Men did that. Also, His Laws were only for Israel! So one tiny spot on earth would be somewhat prepared for Jesus.. rather than His coming in the midst of tree worshipers or womething. And He had to be strict, so because they've as a nation suffered likely most, they will be also eternally blessed in some ways, one being they birthed the redeemer. Also the Okld Testament law is an example of how things, ultimately, really are, on the large forever scale. Since God is Life and also Perfection, all imperfection is then opposite of Life. That's just the way it is. And it can't be any other way. But God has provided the cure for aLL things. And aLL things will be cured. Because God IS perfect. Therefore nothing else is possible. If I disagree with God about something I'm sure I will be proven wrong and will change my mind. Just as if I'm seeing something not quite right, I will one day.

Jesus. "Is the exact representation of His" God's "character" and essence/being.

One Old Testament law said if a man raped a woman in the field he had to marry her. Sounds bad to us, but I bet it prevented almost all rapes! And it's not like a man and woman hung out alone like they do nowadays. God greatly complimented woman when He made that first promise of a rescuer, that He would be "born of a woman". And Mary birthed Jesus. He made Eve out of Adams' side, not foot, and made Adam wait for Eve, til Adam said "finally!" When the apostle Paul wrote that women should not teach, etc, in that day and place, if all of a sudden women would have stood up and begun to speak and teach there would be so much uproar, I'm thinking the gospel/good news would have been shipwrecked! After a while, if you notice, there were prominent women in the church, some were teachers (Priscilla and the seven daughters of ?can't remember who right now).

Anyone caught in adultery or fornication were stoned, not just women. You see God couldn't let everything run amok in tiny Israel because they were to birth the savior/rescuer of all mankind from non-life, the opposite of Perfection/God/Life. Whether Israel always stoned both is another thing, as in the day of Jesus when they brought only the woman. Jesus talked to women, treated them as equals, Unheard of in that day and place. Showed Himself as resurrected to a woman first.

When Lot offered his daughters to the gay mob, I'm thinking  he knew that never in a koon's age would they take him up on it.. Anyway, God didn't do it, Lot did. God's purpose in Israel wasn't to say, here, see these my perfect people. Yes God had Israel make war and destroy the nations (Canaan) that were in the "promised land" because they were butchers who were deeply into the practice of child and human sacrifice.

So yes, God has interfered two or three times, lest it all (mankind) end too soon, and nothing be proven (like when He scattered them at Babel)..  And also in order to provide the rescue (from death and its cause imperfection). Since God His self opened the Pandora's Box by endowing thinking ability, He built the rescue into all things from the beginning ("from the foundation of the world" and also He being responsible is therefor "the savior of all men" male and female! 1tim 4:10).

About the seals, and the Book of Revelation, it's all consequences. It all comes from the choices made since before Cain slew Abel.. Thermo-nuclear fire occurs, still the running of free will.. the seals, trumpets, bowls, all things in those consequences.. John wrote as he understood what he saw.. helicopters as locusts.. lions as tanks..

I guess I've come to realize that it's not how could I have suffered, for now I know all have suffered, some far worse than me, in war, torture, genocide, etc, and God suffers it all. If He prevented my suffering He's have to prevent everyone's wpouldn't He? ..but that would be the same as allowing imperfection vitually for ever, thus suffering, unhappiness, disatisfaction for ever. I guess the question is, how could I be alive? How can there be life? what a miracle. MG. And how can I be saved so that I was able to happily marry and raise ok kids, a miracle, believe me. And how is it possible I am part of that glorious 1st resurrection. And one day there will be perfection, where the "wolf will dwell with the lamb and the lion will" (once more) "eat straw like the ox, and the bear will be seen grazing with the cow" and each one "will abide under their own vine" and fruit tree "and no one will bother them", "and a little child shall lead them". It's the dark spirits that accuse God. And like the psalmist wrote "depart from me all workers of iniquity" - or how about this "depart from me all lying spirits!" I don't suppose I've happened upon every answer, but I'm happy with what I do understand and if I have another question, I guess I'll find out later. Some of the other things you wrote are not in the Old Testament either. But they are popular and repeated these days. I know God has done all things in order to bring about the most perfect of all 'end' results. [Because He is Perfect, nothing else is possible.]
sorry for this long post, if anyone read this far! I can be a wee bit long winded some times. Please bear with me if it didn't help you it was good for me!
- P.S. - there's only one way to have an uN-breakable paradise. And this is it, to let 'free-will' thus suffering (learning life from death, good from evil) run its course..

Michelle, do you love the Lord? Do you have a desire to see and understand how He works in our world? The answers we desire do not always, if fact hardly ever, fall into what we want or expect, certainly opposite of what we want. This is a very deep, very deep statement..... stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He has a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning.
But I know this, the truth that He has begun to work with you is enough to bring you hours, if not days of shout and holler with smile and song, dance and praise to the King.
We, humans think negative of all the things that happen to us and others we know and care about, thats our way, we cant help it, its natural........ UNTIL HE moves in our lives as He has done in yours. The first thing I understand for us as new creatures, is to FORGIVE .....FORGIVE those that have hurt us. Thats your hurtle now, as long as you carry that hate and unforgiveness He will not, He cannot begin to show you THE PATH.

Luk 23:34 Now Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they are not aware what they are doing.Now dividing His garments, they cast the lot."

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 02:47:39 PM
:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

:2thumbs: Woah! Thank you so much for that! It just make so much sense! Woah! This is so exciting! I have such a passion for studying the scriptures that I spend a lot of time doing just that. And to think that for most people, the most thrilling thing is a roller-coaster ride. :rolllol: Let them have their roller-coaster ride. I prefer studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures. Now, THAT is exciting!

:Urock:

"WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False."

So it was just symbolical, metaphorical murder? Is that what you're saying?

Quote from: redhotmagma on March 04, 2011, 03:26:16 PM
Michelle, as to your friend saying the KJV is the inerrent word of God, ask him which version?  You probably won't get anywhere because KJV-only types are highly indoctrinated.  I've had a lot of experience with them, and you want to talk about a cult mentality, yikes.  But if you do want some ammo theres plenty out there.  One is that it has been revised multiple times.  Thus the question which version is inerrant.  Really it gets down to manuscripts.  I believe the translator of the KJV only had a couple, which have been shown to be quite wrong with all the manuscript evidence we have now, like from the dead sea scrolls. 

How is it inerrant if it has to be revised???  If he's a 1611 KJV only guy then good luck :)

Yes. It has been revised multiple times. And it has many mistranslated words. Like Aion/olam mistranslated "everlasting". End of an/the age, mistranslated end of the "world". And four different words translated "hell"; Hades (the grave), death, Gehenna and the pit. And so many contradictions due to mistranslations. Most things said to be "everlasting" in the KJV end up being destroyed or replaced. The old Covenant (law), the Aaronic priesthood, the mountains, Jonah was supposed to be stuck in "hell" (belly of the fish) forever (he was only in that place for three days), etc. Not to mention the preface to the reader (1611 KJV), which was conveniently removed. It can be found on the Internet. Preface in which the translators themselves say that even the 1611 KJV is NOT perfect and without error. But most KJV-only people ignore that fact and keep pretending that the 1611 KJV is the innerant Word of God. My friend is a KJV-only type and he is highly endoctrinated. He is a 1611 KJV-only type and it just seems that no matter what I say, I'm a heretic. In the last two weeks, I sent him countless TM articles that he didn't read. He simply refuse to search and study these things for himself. He recently read a few TM articles and told me to end any relationship with TM because "they are lying about the KJV". He said that the KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and not the Latin Vulgate. I told him about the Jerome conspiracy, but I'm speaking to a wall. But even though the 1611 KJV is NOT perfect and without error, and even though it started the whole E.T doctrine, that's the Bible I prefer because most Bibles that do not have the concept of "everlasting" punishment in them seem to be even more corrupt:

- Wesley's NT: Wesley is a Methodist apostate
- Young's Literal Translation: (All thing were made "THROUGH" Him, instead of "BY" Him. Direct attack on Christ's deity. Denying that Jesus is God in the flesh. Yeah, I'm a Trinitarian.)
- World English Bible: Same thing.
- Weymouth's NT: Same thing. Also, the resultant Greek text has something to do with Wescott & Hort. Those two are occultists...
- The people's New Covenant (not a real Bible, bunch of comments, explanations, etc.)
- Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Catholic Bible, manuscrit from the VATICAN. Which means Christianized pagan doctrines/idolatry (Mary/angels/saints and Sun day worship) and the VATICAN is the whore of Baylon (they wear purple and scarlet.)
- Green's Literal Translation: They replaced "servant" with "slave". Just like in most modern versions. "Slaves" of Christ...:hysteric: Some people just don't get it. And don't give me a speech on the Greek word "doulos", I don't want to hear it. Jesus doesn't view me as a slave...
- Concordant Literal Translation (The Word was TOWARDS God instead of "WITH" God, calls the Word made flesh (Jesus Christ) a "IT" (instead of "Him".) A direct attack on Christ's deity.)
- Ferrar Fenton's Holy Bible: based on the text of Wescott & Hort (two occultists). Also, according to bible-researcher.com it contains many amateurish errors.)
- The New Testament, A translation (greber): (Holy spirits (plural). THAT is a true heresy.)
- Rotherham Emphasized Bible: (based on the text of Wescott & Hort (two occultists).

Please, don't think that I am judging anyone here. It's a matter of opinion. I don't feel comfortable with Bibles that have anything to do with Wescott & Hort and Bibles that attack Christ's deity. Also, many modern versions are deeply corrupt as well (NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc). They attack the Virgin birth, the blood atonement, Christ's deity, the bodily resurrection, the second coming and turn the Lord's prayer into a prayer to Satan (NIV). The NIV is the worst and most corrupt Bible. In Isaiah something, it calls Satan the morning start instead of the son of the morning. They make Jesus and Satan out to be one and the same. And the publishing house for the NIV, Rupert Murdock is in charge and they own the rights to the satanic Bible and a book entitled: "The joy of gay sex". The NIV is a total perversion. Also, all modern versions have countless omissions in them and I'm not only talking about corrections. I'm talking about removing important stuff like one of the commandement (false witness), removing the word "worship" countless times (denying Jesus worship), removing the words "Christ" and "Lord" countless times, "the earth is the Lord's", "Get thee behind me, Satan", the passages about fasting to get rid of some stubborn demons and many other such important things. :hysteric: I study many Bibles, but I feel more comfortable with the 1611 KJV, even though it has some mistranslated words, like "everlasting" and "world" instead of age. No english translation is perfect and without error and pretty much all english translations are corrupt. I am a Christian Universalist through and through, but I just feel more comfortable with the 1611 KJV. And I was using that Bible when God saved me. I think it's no coincidence that God had my friend sent me that Bible. God provided me with a Bible when I couldn't afford one, but He was also trying to show me something. And that Bible was the first step that led me to Christian Universalism. The first step in my spiritual journey, in my walk with the Lord that led me to the truth of Universal Salvation. I think God can use just about any Bible no matter how corrupt to teach something to a person. God always use evil to bring good. But I feel more comfortable with the Bible I started with.

:sweat: Please, don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, people... 

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me

There are mistranslations. the greatest being HELL and eternal - along with many minor ones by comparrison-

Blessings :icon_flower:

I already know that, Taffy. But that's pertaining to the NT. And that's what most of the TM articles are about. I sure hope someone will add some O.T articles to the TM material someday. It's just as important as the whole E.T doctrine thing. Many people became atheists because they couldn't cope with the horrors of the O.T. But it seems that the Lord won't let me give up on Him so easily. And I don't think I want that myself. If God cannot be trusted and counted on, then no one else can be. I will keep searching until I find answers. That's what He wants me to do. I can feel it. It's just another spiritual quest. And for so many years, I have been tormented, depressed, living in fear and lonely. Ever since He revealed the truth of UR to me, my life has completely changed. It's not always sunshine and daisies, but I now know what pure, perfect love is, peace that passes all understanding, joy and real happiness. I have been betrayed and hurt by many so-called friends and I have never been loved. I didn't even know what love was until Jesus moved in and started healing me and showered me with pure, perfect love. And my Fundamentalist friend would have me believe that I'm being deceived by Satan or a false Christ. I began healing and became a much better person and he would have me believed that UR is a "heresy". God has moved mightily in my life and I have manifest way more fruit of the Holy Spirit ever since I became a Christian Universalist. Never in my entire life have I experienced such love, peace, joy and healing. And I now know what happiness is. Believe me when I tell you that I had it rough. I have been beaten up, mollested, ridiculized, humiliated, rejected and treated like a freak, mostly because I was born with a disability and because I was fragile. Lots of people have walked all over me, taken advantage of me and many so-called friends have betrayed me and hurt me. I don't exactly know why I was put through all this, but Jesus taught me to see the big picture...

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

"Of the same lump. There is nothing in the basic material of the two vessels to make one different from the other—the difference lies in the design of the potter. There is no reason within themselves why one should be a lamb and the other a tiger. It is not the lamb's fault or the tiger's fault that they were made thus. Out of the same lump of clay, which God turned into humanity, He can produce in the same generation a Cain and an Abel—a Cain who is self-centered and an Abel who is full of faith—a Cain who is a murderer and an Abel who is a servant of God. Out of the same lump, out of the same kneading, He can produce a self-righteous Pharisee and a self-abnegating Publican."

Same thing for my Fundamentalist friend, Thomas. It's not his fault he was made thus. He didn't choose to be a self-righteous Pharisee. But I know God is eventually going to open his eyes to the truth of UR. Maybe not in this life, but death doesn't stop Jesus. Otherwise, He wouldn't have the keys to Hades and death and those keys would be completely useless. And I know He will take good care of my friend. It's all about the big picture. Gary said something about that once. He said, how am I supposed to love my enemies unless I actually have enemies to love? When your enemy happen to be your friend, then surely God is trying to teach you an important lesson. And when I'm reunited with my friend in heaven, everything will make perfect sense to the both of us. And in heaven, nothing will ever be able to hinder or destroy our friendship again. No matter how bad and hopeless circumstances seem to be, we should never trust them. We should never trust circumstances, but God alone...

 

Quote from: Molly on March 04, 2011, 05:40:05 PM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 02:47:39 PM
:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

That looks like a very cool site.

But I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.  :winkgrin:

What do they know, huh? I say that's a grace from God, just like salvation. It's not from man. One of these days, God might prove them wrong. :rolllol:

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 06:42:52 PM

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 06:28:17 PM
I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

Michelle, what is it you really are looking for? It seems to me that you pretty much know all about everything that anyone says, so what is it you are seeking? Peace comes from forgiveness, and accepting that being a follower of Jesus Christ will bring calalmities and a great deal learning things that are quite obstuse to what we have layed out in our minds. If the God of the old testament slaughtered and killed in a way that you cannot phanthom, does that make God bad or evil? Do you not believe that God has a purpose and reason for what you may call atrocities? He does nothing that does not have a purpose in His plan. You may not see it, or understand it, while you cuddle in your natural mind, with your understanding of hate and love, but
Isa 55:8 For not as My devices are your devices, and not as your ways are My ways,averring is Yahweh."
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are loftier than the earth, so are My ways loftier than your ways, and my devices than your devices."
We, all who walk and accept the truths of the Father are learning that the thoughts and compasions of our natural mind are quite useless in our regeneration and growth in the Spirit. To repent, as DL Moody said is like the military command of "about face," to turn right about and face the opposite direction and that most assuredly means to think different than we had.
This is part of growing up, maturing in the Lord, forsaking our knowledge and common sense. As you have quoted GOD IS LOVE, He loves what He created even amongest all the things we find outside of our range of figuring.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 07:05:55 AM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 06:42:52 PM

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 06:28:17 PM
I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

He does 1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 05, 2011, 07:22:48 AM
...............Peace comes from forgiveness, and accepting that being a follower of Jesus Christ will bring calalmities and a great deal learning things that are quite obstuse to what we have layed out in our minds. If the God of the old testament slaughtered and killed in a way that you cannot phanthom, does that make God bad or evil? Do you not believe that God has a purpose and reason for what you may call atrocities? He does nothing that does not have a purpose in His plan. You may not see it, or understand it, while you cuddle in your natural mind, with your understanding of hate and love, but
Isa 55:8 For not as My devices are your devices, and not as your ways are My ways,averring is Yahweh."
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are loftier than the earth, so are My ways loftier than your ways, and my devices than your devices."
We, all who walk and accept the truths of the Father are learning that the thoughts and compasions of our natural mind are quite useless in our regeneration and growth in the Spirit. To repent, as DL Moody said is like the military command of "about face," to turn right about and face the opposite direction and that most assuredly means to think different than we had.
This is part of growing up, maturing in the Lord, forsaking our knowledge and common sense. As you have quoted GOD IS LOVE, He loves what He created even amongest all the things we find outside of our range of figuring.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

You may have intended this for Michelle, but thank you for this good and helpful (to me) word, brother micah.  I almost constantly find that I need to humble myself before Him, submit to His will and ways.  Thank you and blessings.

Quote from: pneuma on March 04, 2011, 07:02:13 PM
Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

:icon_flower: Hey, Pneuma. I just read your two posts and it all makes perfect sense! I had "The Bible is the innerant Word of God and it must be taken literally" rammed down my throat by so many Fundamentalists, including my friend. Father, forgive him for he not knows what he does and please, bless him. There are so many things to study, I wish I had the ability to read and memorize many things at once. There are so many things that I don't know of. And I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for so many years. God really made some miraculous changes in me, but there are many things that I must learn. Please, pray for me and ask God to show me my erronous beliefs that are the result of so many years of endoctrination and brainwashing. God bless you.

Thank you my friend, it was also a help to me. Bro. Prinzing once said that most times when he ministered and taught, he was truly minstering to himself. I find that to be a very true lesson. I am pleased the Lord has blessed you as well as me.

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 08:34:13 PM
Gary will be posting on this OT issue soon.  He has studied it extensively, has a heart for those struggling with these issues (who doesn't?) and has some points he'd like to make that honestly, are different than some of the views pneuma has presented.  Textual criticism is such a slippery slope, some just take advantage of the opportunity and things deteriorate quickly. 

Love and grace prevail, and the desire is to minister and pursue the truth.   :HeartThrob:

But don't you think that some of the things Pneuma said are worth looking into?

Gary Amirault is mightily used by the Lord and like King David, is a man after the Lord's heart. I have no doubt that he's been anointed to be a great teacher. I have watched many of his videos on his Youtube channel. A lot of the things he said spoke to me and stretched my thinking. And I'm very glad he will post on this OT issue and that he has studied it extensively. Not everyone has the material, the ressources and the experience. We can thank God that we have this man with us. God bless him and you as well...   

Quote from: redhotmagma on March 04, 2011, 08:30:16 PM
Pneuma that was beautiful, what about "all scripture is God breathed"?  I was lockstep with you until that popped into my head.  A thought that even in the scribes lying pen, Father being who He is used those stories as patterns for us, (which would lead me possibly to the conclusion that they misunderstood, since He was laying the pattern and they carnalized it) either way What man meant for evil God meant for good.   :HeartThrob:

Hi RHM, all scripture is God breathed, but as I said in my opening not everything in the bible is scripture.

That is my last statement concerning this topic RHM as the topic of scripture is a topic that Tents does not believe is profitable and leads to food fights, and they are correct in their assessment as it has done this before.

It is not my intent to cause a food fight, I posted what I did because I saw a sister who was looking for some answers and felt led to post what I had been given to understand as I have been where she is now.

The powers that be here at Tents believe me to be wrong in what I posted, however they were good enough to let my post stand even though it goes against what is in the policy at Tents. For this I am thankful to them.

But you know something, I have been told that what I see is wrong pretty much my whole life (I am use to it now) for over 30 years I have been teaching the restitution of all things and everyone I knew believed me to be in error only to find out later that what they perceived in me to be error was actually true.

Therefore, so that I do not step on any toes or post contrary to Tents policies, I ask that if anyone has any question about what I have written to please feel free to pm me and I will answer them through pm.

God bless

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 07:33:27 AM

Quote from: pneuma on March 04, 2011, 07:02:13 PM
Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

:icon_flower: Hey, Pneuma. I just read your two posts and it all makes perfect sense! I had "The Bible is the innerant Word of God and it must be taken literally" rammed down my throat by so many Fundamentalists, including my friend. Father, forgive him for he not knows what he does and please, bless him. There are so many things to study, I wish I had the ability to read and memorize many things at once. There are so many things that I don't know of. And I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for so many years. God really made some miraculous changes in me, but there are many things that I must learn. Please, pray for me and ask God to show me my erronous beliefs that are the result of so many years of endoctrination and brainwashing. God bless you.

Glad you can see what I was saying Michelle and my God give you a decerning heart and mind toward all that He is.
God bless

"I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness."

I am born from above. But due to years of endoctrination and brainwashing, I have many erronous beliefs and difficulty to understand the scriptures the way you do because, first, I don't have your experience, and secondly, I've been told for years to take all scriptures literally. That does not mean I'm not saved and born again, it only means that I'm learning and dealing with years of endoctrination and brainwashing (E.T doctrine and other stuff). I don't understand everything you said, but I understand the general message. I trust that God will work and I will eventually understand. That's always how it happens. First, I don't understand something and then WHAM! Also, I'm struggling and dealing with a lot of things, so I have a hard time focussing on anything these days. My mind constantly wanders from one thing to the other. It sucks. Not to mention that I have this Damnationist friend and our friendship is quickly deteriorating. I'm trying to patch the holes and mend the frienship, but nothing seems to work. In his eyes, I'm a freaking heretic. Our friendship is falling to pieces and no matter what I do, it seems to be beyond repair.

Sometimes, I could just raise my arms to the sky and shout: "WHY, GOD, WHY???" :talkangry: How many times will I have to ask the oh so important and still unanswered question before I receive an answer from Him? How many "whys" will remain unanswered? Why are my mother and sister still unsaved? Why do they love their sins so much? Why am I losing my friend? Why do I have to struggle with so many issues at once? Why was I abused when I was a kid? Why, why, why??? You have no idea how sick and tired I am of being angry. I thought I was finally rid of my anger issue, but these last few days, it seems that I have that problem again. I hate this. Anger is a love, peace and joy killer. When I first became a Christian Universalist, I walked in a state of pure, perfect love for a few days and then it wore off. Just like you. The emotional shock of losing that and the fear of abandon that I have had ever since I was kid caused me a trauma. That was about two weeks ago. I recently had a nightmare about being seperated from God. That's what years of endoctrination and brainwashing can do to a person. A lot of damage. God started to heal me, but there's a lot of healing to be done. But like you said, He will work it all out to my good, so I'm  just gonna trust Him with that...

"Well, like I said, Michelle and Pneuma, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum."

Well, I'm sorry about that. I really needed help and I didn't know what to think or do anymore. If you have a better suggestion on what I should do in these kind of situations, please let me know. As for people with an agenda, I know a lot about it because back when I was a Fundy, I did a lot of research on the Internet as I was begging people to get saved from the wrath to come. But the NWO can't win, because God is gonna show all those corrupt politicians who rules the earth. Hail King Jesus!   

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 09:13:33 AM
If you have a better suggestion on what I should do in these kind of situations, please let me know.   Hail King Jesus!   

Michelle, Gary did have an idea for you.  Plz check your messages at the top of the forum.  I left a message earlier this afternoon in there for you from Gary.  Blessings, James.

Quote from: jabcat on March 05, 2011, 01:15:35 AM
Gary has asked both Scott (pneuma) and Michelle to speak with him personally.  His desire is to minister, be of help.

Amen.

And what exactly does that mean "personally"? I'm new, so I don't exactly know how things work here. As for being of help, I think he's knocking on the wrong door. Me, I never help. I'm always twenty steps behind everyone else either because I'm clumsy or too slow because of my disability. And because of that, I've been despised and laughed at all my life.

Please, God don't let me screw up this time. I don't want to be the laughstock of this forum...:upset:

There's a Message link at the top of the page.  Click on that and there'll be a message in there from me, with some information from Gary.

"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

"You and I, so very thankfully, have been chosen, through no goodness or wisdom on our part, to be part of that Oh so Glorious 1st Resurrection. Many others will be part of the not as joyous 2nd Resurrection (though I'm sure it catches up). They will have an agelasting time "away from the Presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power" - 2 Thess 1:9, during that long 'day' of the examination of all things, all human history, etc, when "all the books will be opened" and "nothing will be left uncovered that is hidden". [side note: It's only after all this, that they will hear the notorious words "those not believing will go to the second death". By time all that, who's not going to "believe"?]"

There will be no seperation from God. The Bible says that they "will be "tormented" in the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels in the lake of fire" to be purified, purged and refined. No matter how bad a sinner is, God will never cause him the agony of such seperation. And no soul would ever survived TRULY seperated from Life itself. Seperation from God is a lie and a false doctrine. The word "seperation" is never used in the Bible. Whatever 2 Thess 1:9 says, it's been misinterpreted. God doesn't completely seperate Himself from His children, not even temporarily. The unsaved are said to be seperated from God since they are spiritually dead, but they are not COMPLETELY and CONSCIOUSLY seperated from God for COMPLETE seperation from Life itself would mean death of the soul (the spiritual essence) without Life to sustain it. The soul/spiritual essence of that person would be completely annihilated as if that person had never exist to begin with. Complete seperation from God is everlasting death, it is a lie and a false doctrine. Also, the "fire" will burn and destroy everything that seperate people from God. As for the second death, EVERYONE will go through it. The carnal mind must die for good for it cannot enter heaven. But those who died the first death will not be "hurt" of the second death.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html 

I hope this helps...

"Some of the things you wrote about the Old Testament are not true, others are partly true. If by pediphylia, you meant how the first children of Adam and Eve had to marry one another, it wasn't incest/dangerous then because the DNA threads/possibilites had not been separated and narrowed down.. Adam and Eve lived very long lives and likely birthed an outrageous amount of children! I'm sure Leviticus 18 expressly forbids pediphylia! Lots daughters produced with Lot. Their choice. Not God's. Not even Lot's. They thought Lot's line would die out."

I was mostly talking about little girls sold into slavery and forced to marry their 60 years old master or his 30 years old son. Those little girls were about between 8 and 14, kids. That's what I meant. Read my first post in that thread, you have the passages about what God says. Little girls were sold into slavery by their fathers and married to much older men. Marriage and sex with minors is just wrong. Stuff like that still happens in countries like Algeria. Little girls are sold and married to much older men by their father and they are treated like slaves by their husbands and they are victims of numerous abuses. Many of them flee their country or commit suicide to avoid such a miserable life. This has to stop... 

"One Old Testament law said if a man raped a woman in the field he had to marry her. Sounds bad to us, but I bet it prevented almost all rapes! And it's not like a man and woman hung out alone like they do nowadays."

Forcing a woman into marrying her rapist is just wrong. It's not right and it never will be. Many women have flee their country or commited suicide to avoid such a miserable life. No woman in their right mind would marry their rapist and I would certainly not marry any of my abusers. It's just wrong and nothing will ever make this right. Being forced into marriage with the one who violated and hurt you can drive a woman to suicide or very self-damaging actions. Rape seriously damage people physically, mentally and emotionally. Being forced into marriage with her abuser will only finish the woman off. If physical and sexual abuse is a good enough reason to divorce a husband (I have post stuff on that) then a woman should certainly not marry her abuser. When a woman's physical, mental and psychological health is in serious danger, she has to be protected and spared from any further damage and hurt or the consequences will awful. Most women who have been severely abused many times over want to remain single. They are not interested in getting romantically involve with a man. Ask around. And I have made this very clear to God at the beginning of my walk with Him that if He really loved me and cared about me, He would never ask me to get involve with a man, much less to get married. I made it perfectly clear to Him that the day He would ask me to do that, He would lose me, that I could never obey Him in this, that I could never get close to a man and have any kind of relationship with a man other than friendship. But apparently, I was worrying for nothing. To my relief, it seems that I'm promised to a life of celibacy forever. And I can thank God that I was born with a disability and that no man take an interest in me. I have nothing against men, I'm looking forward to making male friends, but I will remain single. And also, as Paul said, since I will remain single, I can focuss on serving the Lord...   

"We, humans think negative of all the things that happen to us and others we know and care about, thats our way, we cant help it, its natural........ UNTIL HE moves in our lives as He has done in yours. The first thing I understand for us as new creatures, is to FORGIVE .....FORGIVE those that have hurt us. Thats your hurtle now, as long as you carry that hate and unforgiveness He will not, He cannot begin to show you THE PATH."

I have forgiven Him and all the people who have hurt me. But I totally hate it when others are put through what I've been through. What I hate above all else is to see people suffer. It drive me crazy and I would do anything to rescue and help them. And I don't know if that's supposed to be a curse or a blessing, but to me, it often seem to be an awful curse, is everytime I know that people are suffering or I see them suffer, I feel their pain as if it was my own. One of my spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of mercy. From what I've heard, in the eyes of many, it is the least of all gifts. Most people are so obssess with tongues and prophecy that they completely disregard mercy. They even qualify those with the gift of mercy as emo and naive. But apparently, they didn't listen to a word of what Paul had to say, because he said that tongues was the least of all gifts and nowadays, you have people who tell you that if you don't speak in tongues, you are not saved and born again. This is so ridiculous. Plus, tongues in the Bible was among the gifts that would cease. So I might be wrong, but I think those who speak in tongues are being deceived. And many people who "speak in tongues" are full of pride. Believe me, if you don't pretend that you are speaking some unknown tongue, they put you in the "unsaved" category. The fact is, I am sensitive emotionally because of my disability and everything I've been through, so feeling people's pain as if it was my own really doesn't help. I don't understand why the Lord only add to my pain. And I have "when you hurt, He hurts" rammed down my throat and since I can't control what happens to me and stop hurting at will, I just keep causing Him pain and I am mad with guilt. Even though I hurt like hell, and laugh at me or call me stupid if you want but, even though I hurt like hell, I would gladly hurt even more if I could take all of His pain upon myself because were it in my power, I would spare Him all the pain I can take upon myself and give Him all the comfort I can give. I sound stupid, don't I? That's what love do to most people...

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 05, 2011, 07:24:43 AM

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 07:05:55 AM

Quote from: Taffy on March 04, 2011, 06:42:52 PM

Quote from: jabcat on March 04, 2011, 06:28:17 PM
I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

He does 1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

:icon_flower: :Gdance: :cloud9:

"stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He has a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning."

Do you know what really angers me above all else? For months, I have felt guilty, ashamed, dirty and disgusting, not worthy of Him, of even being in His presence and sight. I have felt that I was too impure and disgusting to allow Him close to me and as a result, I have put distance between us. And now, I learn that "he had a reason" for those abuses and that He was behind it all. And that means that I have felt disgusting and unworthy for months for nothing because those abuses were part of His plan from the start. I have forgiven Him for not interfering, but knowing that He knew all along that He was behind it and didn't say anything, I have a hard time dealing with. Why didn't He say anything? Why leaving me to feel like that for months? Why letting me put distance between us when I was all alone and needed Him so much? Was that part of His plan as well? Of course that was. What isn't? I just wish things were simpler. Why make things complicated by allowing the carnal mind to exist when he could destroy it right away so no one would ever tormented with questions, hindrances, temptations and disgusting sins that result in His insatisfaction and wrath and more suffering for us? If our carnal mind prevent us from understand the meaning behind our suffering and His perfect plan, then why not perform some kind of mega miracle and make our mind just as limitless and infinite as His so we could understand absolutely everything? Why keeping us in ignorance when understand the meaning behind our suffering would be an act of love and give us peace of mind? Why keeping people in ignorance about the meaning behind their suffering at all costs? Does He know that it adds even more to people's suffering as they are tormented with "whys" and numerous questions? Why not making us totally perfect and perfectly sinless right away so that we can never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again with our disgusting sins and our pathetic failures? Why keeping us in a state of imperfection that He hates so much? Why allowing us to disappoint Him and hurt Him with our vile, disgusting sins and leaving us to feel horrible about it? Can't He just understand that we would give anything to totally perfect and perfectly sinless so that we would never disappoint Him and hurt Him ever again, so that we would be everything He wants us to be, so that He would always be pleased with us at all times, so that nothing would ever get in the way of our relationship with Him, so that we would truly be worthy of Him? Can't He just see how much this is killing me? Why working in me to bring me to a place where I love Him with all my mind and all my strength and all my heart and keep me in a state of imperfection that makes me undeserving and unworthy of Him? Of what use is it to experience such strong and burning love for Him if I am powerless to be perfect to Him and for Him? Of all the things I had to endure this is the worst, even worse than abuse. And why is that kind of love for Him so painful?

:crywipe::crywipe::crywipe:     

Quote from: MichelleAnd now, I learn that "he had a reason" for those abuses and that He was behind it all. And that means that I have felt disgusting and unworthy for months for nothing because those abuses were part of His plan from the start. I have forgiven Him for not interfering, but knowing that He knew all along that He was behind it and didn't say anything, I have a hard time dealing with.

QuoteWhy keeping us in ignorance when understand the meaning behind our suffering would be an act of love and give us peace of mind? Why keeping people in ignorance about the meaning behind their suffering at all costs?

I don't know, Michelle.  Maybe so we can have passion.  People think of passion as an intense emotion, most often associated with love, but in the case of Christ, it refers to suffering.

Passion (from the Latin verb patior, meaning to suffer or to endure, also related to compatible)

He suffered greatly, and so shall we because the servant is not greater than the Master.

Maybe it is because our passion makes us empathic.  Maybe it is because our passion gives us compassion.

He sets us apart, Michelle.  That's just the way it is.

You're struggling with your friend now, but I'm sure you understand that you cannot make him know something.  You have put things before him and he rejects them.  What else can you do?  Some day--who knows when--he will be able to see what you are placing before him now. You were brought into his life for a reason.  But, that's not up to you.

I have been betrayed by every friend I've ever had.  But, so was he.

Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

I am willing to bet that just about everyone on this board has gone through their own version of terrible suffering.

This in no way means to compare to what you have been through, but we can't compare suffering, can we?  All suffering is equal.

You say why, why, why.  You need to wait to find out why.  Joseph was thrown in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit.  I don't believe God did that to him, but God used it mightily to raise Joseph to the top of his society.  He became the most powerful man in Egypt, second only to Pharoah.  They meant it for evil but God meant it for good to save many souls alive.

We will rule and reign with him some day, Michelle.  Do I want someone reigning with him who understands suffering, who has compassion,  and who loves mercy?  YES.

The rest of that passage about the children--

Matthew 18:10
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

"I don't know, Michelle.  Maybe so we can have passion.  People think of passion as an intense emotion, most often associated with love, but in the case of Christ, it refers to suffering.

Passion (from the Latin verb patior, meaning to suffer or to endure, also related to compatible)

He suffered greatly, and so shall we because the servant is not greater than the Master.

Maybe it is because our passion makes us empathic.  Maybe it is because our passion gives us compassion.

He sets us apart, Michelle.  That's just the way it is."

Suffering is not the issue, it's not even an issue. I can take so much more than that. But I just wish He would destroy and burn up and all those disgusting imperfections because I love Him so much that it's driving me crazy. If I was perfect and sinless, He would be pleased with me at all times and nothing could ever get in the way of our relationship again and I could never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. Why a perfect God loves people that are not perfect and sinless is beyond my understanding. Why He keeps us in a state of imperfection that He hates so much is beyond my understanding. And above all else, what is totally beyond my understanding is why He put such a curse on me, driving me crazy with love for Him and leaving all those disgusting imperfections to exist in me so that I end up being tormented and hating myself. If I could destroy and burn up all my disgusting imperfections I would do it myself and I wouldn't let anything get in the way of my relationship with Him. I would tear all the obstacles apart, fight the worst kind of demon and make my way through a angry mob if I had to. So that nothing could ever get in the way of my relationship with Him ever again, so that there would never be any distance between us ever again...

Jesus actually turned me into an emo, hypersensitive love slave. I don't know if I should laugh or cry...

"You're struggling with your friend now, but I'm sure you understand that you cannot make him know something.  You have put things before him and he rejects them.  What else can you do?  Some day--who knows when--he will be able to see what you are placing before him now. You were brought into his life for a reason.  But, that's not up to you."

I know, okay? I know. Jesus told me to let it go and not duscuss the subject with my friend. But it seems that my friend just doesn't have any subject of conversation other than religion. And everytime we discuss, he gives me hateful speeches on Christian Universalism and "freaking ugly heretics". I know it's not up to me. But it's killing me. If Jesus knows that I love my friend and care so much about him, why He is not doing anything to wake him to the truth? Why is He not doing anything? Does He really bring a sword and seperate people who love each others? I'm losing my friends, my mother, my sister, everyone I love and care about. How can He do this to me? To them? And if He seperates people from those they love in this life, what guarantee do I have that He won't seperate them in the next? And everytime that happens, I hurt like and cry out to him: "Not that one! Don't take that one person from me!" But He does. Is He really THAT much of a jealous God that He just won't allow us to get close to anyone? Can He not understand that humans need each others? You can't even have an actual conversation with Him! You will never have any kind of audible, normal, human conversation with Him because it just seem too human and too pathetic for God Almighty's tastes to have an actual, normal conversation with one of His children. He just doesn't care about chit-chating about insignificant stuff. Too busy being God Almighty working on His perfect plan to pretend to be a human; to talk to us in an audible voice, to have a nice, normal and human conversation with me or any of us and pretend to care about human stuff like art, history and sociology. Well, that's not exactly true, now is it? A few lucky people like Glenda Green, author of: "love without end, Jesus speaks" get to see Him right in front of them and have direct, audible, human conversations with Him, sometimes lasting for months. What did she have that was so special that He gave her such a privilege? He chose her to paint His portrait and to write some of His teachings. What did she have that was so special? She's not a Jew and she certainly isn't a "saint". It's so unfair. I lose everyone I love and care about and it's like he wants me all secluded, with no one to talk and no human voice to hear. I don't know how long I can take anymore of this. It's been months now. And talking with people on forums or Yahoo just isn't the same. He should know that humans need each other and that all humans need human company and face-to-face conversations. If He doesn't like the kind of friends I have or had, then why doesn't He just choose them? But in the town where I live, there are very few Christians and probably no Christian Universalists. Most people in my town are idolatrous Catholics. But it's not like He can't do miracles and choose some friends for me...

"This in no way means to compare to what you have been through, but we can't compare suffering, can we?  All suffering is equal."

Yeah...

"You say why, why, why.  You need to wait to find out why.  Joseph was thrown in jail for 15 years for a crime he didn't commit.  I don't believe God did that to him, but God used it mightily to raise Joseph to the top of his society.  He became the most powerful man in Egypt, second only to Pharoah.  They meant it for evil but God meant it for good to save many souls alive."

God did that to Him...

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

"Many believers are blinded concerning the truth, even as Joseph's brethren were blinded. There are those who say that God did not have, and is not having, anything to do with Satan and his works. When we refer them to Joseph and ask, "Why did Joseph's brethren sell him?" they answer, "Because they hated him." This, of course, is true, but when we point out to them that in later years Joseph said to his brethren, "Therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life" (Gen.45:5), they become confused, for they do not like to believe that God actually did evil to Joseph. They want to place all the blame on his brethren. Of course, God cannot be censured, but the truth is that Joseph's brethren did exactly what God intended them to do. There is no doubt that it was the Adversary who suggested their actions to them, but the Adversary belongs to God in the sense that God created him and can use him as He wills.

So, God used Satan, and Joseph's brethren, to preserve life. This seems strange, for the Adversary is a murderer, but God can, and does, use him for the opposite purpose whenever He pleases to do so.

That the Adversary is subordinate to God is proved by his obedience to the command of the Lord Jesus. When Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan," he went without delay. He left Christ~ (Matt.4:11)."

"We will rule and reign with him some day, Michelle.  Do I want someone reigning with him who understands suffering, who has compassion,  and who loves mercy?  YES."

Not all will rule with Him. All will be saved, but not all will have the same rewards and the same amount of rewards. It will depend on the tested works. Those that pass the test will bring rewards, those that don't pass the test will be burned and bring losses. The rewards among other things are crowns and positions in the Kingdom. God can "force" (make people willing) to be saved in the "end", but I doubt He will force people into doing things in His kingdom (be it in new earth or new heaven) that they don't want to do, against their will. Some people prefer to follow and serve rather than rule or lead. I seriously doubt that people will be forced to take a position that they do not want. Me, I'd rather serve and follow than having tons of responsibilities and having hundreds of people to deal with. The last thing I want is authority and power, and if God really loves me, He won't force me into it...

Also, read Revelation 4:9-11. Truly humble people will throw their crowns at Jesus' feet and tell Him that He alone is worthy of ruling and reigning. That's exactly what I will do...

Quote from: MichelleBut I just wish He would destroy and burn up and all those disgusting imperfections because I love Him so much that it's driving me crazy.

He is. 

Jesus, too, had to go through this.

Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

"sufferings"--the root word is pathos, which is the same word in our language.

We learn em-path-y by undergoing suffering [pathos].

Is this what makes us 'perfect'?

Those people that hurt you--what do you have that they don't?  Empathy, for one thing.

Our perfection is a function of our relationship with Him.   The word 'perfect' means 'completion' in the Greek.  Our relationship with him makes us complete [perfect] by definition--no matter where we are on our walk.

Therefore, in joining with him, we have to go through a form of what he went through.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.

--John 15:18

QuoteIf Jesus knows that I love my friend and care so much about him, why He is not doing anything to wake him to the truth? Why is He not doing anything? Does He really bring a sword and seperate people who love each others? I'm losing my friends, my mother, my sister, everyone I love and care about. How can He do this to me? To them? And if He seperates people from those they love in this life, what guarantee do I have that He won't seperate them in the next? And everytime that happens, I hurt like and cry out to him: "Not that one! Don't take that one person from me!" But He does. Is He really THAT much of a jealous God that He just won't allow us to get close to anyone?

Believe me, I hear you.  You sound just like me.

Like I said, he sets us apart.  And, apparently some more so than others.

Genesis 12:1
Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you;

Abraham was required to give up everything known to him and follow God.

That hurts--a lot.   And, takes a lot of courage.  Abraham couldn't have done that unless he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

I don't think anyone would willingly chose this path, but in my case it was foisted on me.  I am surrounded by atheists.  I can't change them.  And, I have to endure a lot of abuse from them that I also can't change.  I have prayed to God to give me members of his family, and he gave me a dog haha.
Mind you, he is the most perfect, loving dog on the face of the earth and my wish is his command.  Ah, this is what a servant looks like--he's obeying me out of love.

QuoteThe last thing I want is authority and power, and if God really loves me, He won't force me into it...

I get that.  I'm the same way.  But, what if you had the authority and power to stop a child from being abused?  You might take that on willingly...


I'm sorry you have to go through this, Michelle.  I wish I could make it better for you.  But, whether you know it or not, he is in the fire with you.


24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

--Dan 3

Gary, can you please explain it to him? It's not like I haven't tried. And honestly, I think you're more qualified than I am to explain it to him. I'm praying for him...

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/prayer_room/prayer_those_who_believe_universal_salvation_391.0.html

"I don't think anyone would willingly chose this path, but in my case it was foisted on me.  I am surrounded by atheists.  I can't change them.  And, I have to endure a lot of abuse from them that I also can't change.  I have prayed to God to give me members of his family, and he gave me a dog haha. Mind you, he is the most perfect, loving dog on the face of the earth and my wish is his command.  Ah, this is what a servant looks like--he's obeying me out of love."

Well, at least, I have a cat. A Blue Russian. And speaking of pets, there is another mistranslation in the Bible. The Roman Catholic Church has been lying to us for centuries! Animals are living souls just like humans and they go to heaven!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WV-wYvM5VM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpeugbgre_E

"And God said, Let the waters swarm with the swarmers having a SOUL OF LIFE; and let the birds fly over the earth, on the face of the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea animals, and all that creeps, having a LIVING SOUL, which swarmed the waters, according to its kind; and every bird with wing according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (Hebrew/Greek interliner Genesis 1:20-21)

'And He has filled him with the spirit( 7307 - Ruwach) of God...' ( Exodus 35:31)

7307 רוּחַ (Ruwach) - 5(a) In these verses the animals have a "spirit" (cf Ps 104:29) - The New Strong's Concordance of the Bible

This is the sea, great and wide on both hands; there are creeping things even without number; living things, small and great. There the ships go; You made the great sea animal to play in it. all of them wait for You to give them their food in due season. You give to them; they gather you open your hand, and they are filled with good. You hide Your face, and they are troubled; you gather Your breath, and they expire and they return to dust. You send out YOUR SPIRIT, and they are created; and you renew the face of the earth. (Hebrew/Greek Interliner Psalm 104:25-30)

The wolf and the lamb shall feed as one; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And dust is the food of the snake. They shall not do evil nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah. (Hebrew/Greek Interliner Bible Isaiah 65:25)"

Someone must tell that to Gary! Maybe he can write something about that! Animals are living souls and they go to heaven! People will even be reunited will all the pets they have had in this life! I can't wait to be reunited with my precious cats! I love pets and animals! Especially cats! I'm a cat-lover! Freaking cats all around in heaven! Wooooo hoooooo!!!! :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqA3jjIrZ9Q&feature=related

"The Hebrew words and examples of animals who "spoke" with mankind in the Bible.''

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: Woah! Just like in "The Chronicles of Narnia"! I knew it and I bet C.S. Lewis did too! Animals have the ability to speak human language in heaven!

A comment posted on Youtube: "Dogs do go to heaven my friend had a car accident and her heart stopped during surgery. She saw Mickey her collie in a field of flowers she hugged him but a figure in white said she had to return. They had resuscitated her, she is now a christian and convinced theres an afterlife. snoopyredhat."

Here, you have three different videos. There might be more if you look for them...

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: A woman getting out of rehab once said: "God don't make no trash!" Hey, that should be the Christian Universalists' motto! Along with "God is Love"! And imagine that! Everytime we would come across some Fire and Brimstone preaching Christian, we would say: "God don't make no trash. Are you a trash?" That would shut them up for good! :rolllol: :LH:

Now, this is so ridiculous. I wonder what the NWO will come up with next:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eydqsx_BcuY

When are they gonna put through their thick skulls that they can't win? That's Jesus Christ they are coming up against and they're gonna lose big time and none of their Blue Beam or HAARP trick is gonna work against the King...

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 10:07:24 AM
"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

My first memory is of my mother holding my head under water. In the background I heard my father say, "that's enough hon". It was not God doing it. But her being a robot? What sort of reality. I appreciate your compassion when reading my story and that you didn't simply skim and dismiss what I had to say.

"Reckon yourself as crucified with Christ"  we need to die to self. To say everyone suffers because humans have thinking and reasoning power has nothing to do with my suffering causing God suffering; or your suffering causing God suffering. It's not all about me. That's the biggest lesson we have to learn. God could have made it so no suffering or choice ever occur. But would we really prefer to be robots? Thinking ability. Reason. Logic. We always need to think and consider where something, some idea, way of doing something, leads. What is the result and fruit of it.

If you were God what would you do? It's easy to say make a perfect world. But an ant farm/robots or perpetual infancy is not perfection. If you read everything with the deeply entrenched neuron pathways of thinking that brings you depression, as a screen, you won't ever break free. I've been there. That's why I wrote all I did. I didn't say "God suffers with you" I said God lives through and experiences it all with the thought of inspiring thought above our self.

With the choice of endowing thinking ability or not, if you were He, what would you do/choose. You are God. You can see how every choice you make will end. Would YOU choose to endow thinking ability? or not ever endow thinking ability? Where does each one lead? Which choice is truly the more beneficial in your opinion, if you stop and think about it from God's and an eternal, all encompassing point of view. How about the suffering of creating beautiful life and all the human race does is accuse and blame you, insist on enjoying the good things of life, family, marriage, nature, etc, all the gifts, but merely accuse and blame the giver and source, rather than be thankful. And count the curses rather than the blessings, and disregarding the miracle of being alive to begin with.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." If God spoke war in the Old Testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion. I say God did us a favor. [And then He'll resurrect them and ultimately save them.] I do agree some human elements may have been added to the laws given to tiny Israel in preparation to bring a rescue to planet earth, a rescue from our choices, not God's.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." - "God is love" all love, any love we feel for anyone, that is God. The mean one who likes to stand in front of God claiming to be God, that's not God.

Quote from: marie glen on March 06, 2011, 09:38:03 PM

Quote from: Michelle on March 05, 2011, 10:07:24 AM
"Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur."

I hate when people tell me that and it's the last thing I want to hear. "When you hurt, He hurts". The last thing I need is guilt. I caused Him way too much pain already with the crucificion. It's even worse that I have no control over the things that happens to me so I can't stop hurting at will and free Him from that pain. Please, people, avoid this subject entirely, as I don't think I could cope with it right now and to be honest, not ever... 

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same."

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html

My first memory is of my mother holding my head under water. In the background I heard my father say, "that's enough hon". It was not God doing it. But her being a robot? What sort of reality. I appreciate your compassion when reading my story and that you didn't simply skim and dismiss what I had to say.

"Reckon yourself as crucified with Christ"  we need to die to self. To say everyone suffers because humans have thinking and reasoning power has nothing to do with my suffering causing God suffering; or your suffering causing God suffering. It's not all about me. That's the biggest lesson we have to learn. God could have made it so no suffering or choice ever occur. But would we really prefer to be robots? Thinking ability. Reason. Logic. We always need to think and consider where something, some idea, way of doing something, leads. What is the result and fruit of it.

If you were God what would you do? It's easy to say make a perfect world. But an ant farm/robots or perpetual infancy is not perfection. If you read everything with the deeply entrenched neuron pathways of thinking that brings you depression, as a screen, you won't ever break free. I've been there. That's why I wrote all I did. I didn't say "God suffers with you" I said God lives through and experiences it all with the thought of inspiring thought above our self.

With the choice of endowing thinking ability or not, if you were He, what would you do/choose. You are God. You can see how every choice you make will end. Would YOU choose to endow thinking ability? or not ever endow thinking ability? Where does each one lead? Which choice is truly the more beneficial in your opinion, if you stop and think about it from God's and an eternal, all encompassing point of view. How about the suffering of creating beautiful life and all the human race does is accuse and blame you, insist on enjoying the good things of life, family, marriage, nature, etc, all the gifts, but merely accuse and blame the giver and source, rather than be thankful. And count the curses rather than the blessings, and disregarding the miracle of being alive to begin with.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." If God spoke war in the Old Testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion. I say God did us a favor. [And then He'll resurrect them and ultimately save them.] I do agree some human elements may have been added to the laws given to tiny Israel in preparation to bring a rescue to planet earth, a rescue from our choices, not God's.

"Jesus is the perfect representation of His character." - "God is love" all love, any love we feel for anyone, that is God. The mean one who likes to stand in front of God claiming to be God, that's not God.

What I meant is, Everytime I was beaten up, abused and raped, I couldn't stop those boys and stop myself from hurting so it was all my fault God was hurting with me because I was hurting and it was all my fault God was hurting because I couldn't shut myself out of pain or stop those boys so it was my fault I couldn't stop hurting and stop the pain and it was my fault God was hurting because I was hurting. But it was also totally and completely his fault because he was all behind the beatings, abuses and rapes and it was all part of his perfect plan because he's in control of everything and made everything part of his plan for us even before the beginning of the world, so it was all his fault I was beaten up and abused and raped and all his fault I was made to be polluted, disgusting, violated and impure, undeserving of being in his presence and sight, and it was also all his faul that I lived with all that guilt because I couldn't stop the boys and stop hurting at will and stop my pain and stop being responsible for his being hurting because I was hurting and he made it all my fault that he was hurting because I was hurting. He caused His own pain by making all of this part of his perfect plan but left me to live with the guilt that everytime I couldn't stop those boys and stop myself from hurting it was my fault He was hurting because I was hurting. You said that when your mother tried to drown you, it wasn't God doing it? Oh, no, it wasn't God DOING it, but God planned and programmed all of this before the beginning of the world, everything is all part of his perfect plan. He wasn't DOING it, He had already DONE it. He didn't protect you or changed His plan. No more than He protected me and changed His plan. He just watched as those boys raped me and didn't do anything about it, just like that teacher did in school once. That teacher didn't do anything either. There was no one to help me or take me seriously. Even before she was born, your mother had been programmed to try and drown you at that specific moment of her life. Everything is part of his perfect plan. No one can stop God's plan.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

He created the murderers, the hypocrites and the rapists too. He uses Satan to demonically oppress people and put them under demonic oppression. He did that too me for months. That's in additions to all the beatings, abuses and rapes. All my life I've been a victim of God's perfect plan. The Bible itself says that God creates evil and all evil is under his control. When something evil happens, he makes it happen. When a kid somewhere on the planet is being beaten and raped, God planned it. Many on this board know what I'm talking about.

"stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He had a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning."

Is that supposed to make it all right? He is behind EVERYTHING evil that happens to everyone. Countless people on the planet are having their physical bodies, their souls and their spirits being raped by evil humans and evil spirits and God is behind it all. He's the reason people feel impure, dirty and disgusting. He's the reason people feel unworthy and undeserving to stand in His presence and sight. Satan is nothing more than a tool and as the author of that article say, some people give Satan way too much credit. He ends his article by saying that the real heresy is to say that it is Satan who creates and cause evil. Satan is nothing more than a tool of God. If you're being harassed and oppresed by demonic spirits, God is behind it. If you're beaten up and raped, God is behind it. If you lose everyone you love and care about, God is behind it. All the evil that happens to us is His fault. He made me a violated, impure, filthy and gross thing. Because of Him, I've been under demonic oppression for years, because of Him, my family and I have been hounded and attacked by Satan, because of Him, I have lost everyone I loved and cared about, not to mention that He let me believe the lie of E.T doctrine for years. He let those people endoctrinate and brainwash me. I lived a nightmare because of Him. I was a gentle, innocent and fragile kid and He made me a victim. He is the reason I feel pollute, filthy and disgusting everyday of my life and he is the reason I feel undeserving of being in his presence and sight. After the nightmare of beatings and rape, I've been through the nightmare of E.T doctrine. I've been told that my family and my friends would be eternally tortured and that it didn't matter if I begged God to take me in their place, they would get what they deserved no matter what. I've had horrific nightmares and even traumas. To this day, I still suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, just like military soldiers. I'm doing my own thing when suddenly I see flames dancing before my eyes and I hear people screaming in agony in my head. I see the image of a child engulfed in flames reaching for someone and crying, calling his mama. I never told my mother because she wouldn't understand. She would freak out and drive me to the first psychiatric hospital, thinking I'm schizophrene or psychotic. I know I'm not crazy and I didn't ask for any of this. For all those years, God let me believe a lie. A lie that has destroyed my life. For many months, I have lived with fear, anxiety, depression, sorrow, loss of appetite and insomnia. God never told me anything. He hid very important truths from me. He didn't explain anything to me, much less told me anything. And to this day, my physical, psychological and spiritual health is seriously affected. And all the whys and questions still remain unanswered. God doesn't seem to care at all about my right to know the reason behind everything I've been through, the reason behind why I was made a powerless and easy victim. I have gone to God and asked Him to deprogram me from the years of crap loaded into me by the church and fundies and how I can deal with the anxiety, anger, self-lloathing and doubt that cripples me. I never got an answer. So apparently, He just doesn't care. Some say that if he doesn't interfere when someone is being harm, abused and lied to, that's either because He doesn't want to (not loving and caring enough) or because He cannot (not powerful and in control enough). Sometimes, one cannot help but wonder if God is not loving and willing or powerful and almighty enough to preserve his children. No one should ever have to suffer and be a victikm of the evil HE creates and do. Read the article above. Another thing people have to deal with; love can apparently create and do evil. My life is a mess, I am a mess, my relationship with God is a mess. Everything is nothing but a huge mess. And I'm only a weak, powerless human who cannot find a solution, much less correctly apply one. I'm so sick and so tired of all those spiritual crises that just seem to last forever, so sick of the darkness that seems to permeate my life.

"If God spoke war in the old testament it was against folks deeply into human sacrifice and torture as religion."

Except it was mainly pregnant women and innocent kids and babies that he told people to kill. Innocent little ones and women who had life growing inside them. You don't take it out on innocents.

"I say God did us a favor."

You're starting to talk like my Fundy friend. He said God was only getting rid of the bad seed, eliminating the vermin. Human life is human life. If I was God I wouldn't get people murdered, especially not innocent little ones and that's from an imperfect, sinful human. What does that tell you? Are humans better than God since they show more compassion than God? Some people became atheists because they are angry and shocked because of all the evil things God did. All the hurt, pain, harm, murder and abuse he brought down on people. And even those who was deeply into human sacrifice and torture didn't deserve to be ripped apart. I was ministering to a guy over the Internet once. He told me that He didn't want to hear about God. He told me that He was an ex Christian Universalist and He told me: "Even if God doesn't plan to torture everyone eternally in some hell, He still did horrific and evil things. If some folks were into human sacrifice, torture and stuff like that, why didn't he come down to earth and showed them were they wrong and teach them instead of having them raped, hurt and murdered? No, he waited for centuries, maybe even millenium before He sent His Son." Isn't He right? And why destroy innocent children and babies for the crimes of guilty adults? Why punishing people for the crimes of their fathers or ancestors when they were not responsible for the crimes of others? It's like punishing and destroying a little child because his mother is a whore. It's unnaceptable. As far as I'm concerned, I call a spade a spade and evil is evil. If I can see that, why can't God? Isn't He supposed to be smarter and better than humans? I don't hate God, but I am very angry at him and I will never understand why he cannot see that evil is evil. He's supposed to be more intelligent and better than humans, but many imperfect, sinful humans wouldn't do half of the things he did and in such a horrific way because they have too much compassion and respect for human life. That led many people to atheism. They didn't want to become like the OT God and his followers. 

I'm going through a spiritual crisis, I don't understand certain things and I'm a mess, but I want to tell you, guys, that I'm very grateful to you for attempting to help me. I know you're doing everything you can and I appreaciate it. Please, don't reply to this post and pray for me...

Praying for you, Michelle.


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

--James 1

:sigh: Apparently, I'm not the only one going through a crisis...

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=11;t=000243

Except no matter how infuriate I am, I would never go as far as to say: "You'd better get down here NOW, you miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe."

See post number 420 among other things...

Here's are a few good ones that pretty much express how I feel:

"Why do we have to learn through pain? Why can't we learn through happiness? Why bother creating an imperfect species that spends its time apologizing for falling flat on its face when it can't help it? Why bother creating an imperfect species at all? What kind of a being is God?"

*Bitter laugh* We were born with a sin nature, we didn't ask for it and didn't have anything to say about, we didn't choose our nature and condition, we didn't even ask to be born, but we were guilty and condemned from birth, for something a couple did 6000 years ago and just because we were (in some cases, are) guilty of being their great-great-great-great-great grand-children or something, born with a sin nature we didn't even ask for and brought in this world, life and body against our will. And that's what people are being punished for. For being born into this world, for being imperfect and screwing up, for falling flat on their face, for having a carnal mind they didn't even ask for. People are more victims than they are sinners. Victims of God who planned the fall of mankind millenium ago (see the article: "The problem of evil" posted on the TM website.) Why punishing people for their sins if He willed the fall of mankind and forced the souls He created into this world, this life and this body, forced them into being born into this world with a sin nature and a flesh body that starts aging, deteriorating, rotting and decaying as soon as it is born? Why punishing people for their sins and holding them responsible for their sins if it was in His plan that mankind fall and people be born with a sin nature so that He can send His Son to save a portion of them in this life and all this to bring glory to His name, seemingly not caring about all the suffering He causes? We are all being manipulated and sometimes being controlled, we are nothing but pawns on a chessboard, toys and victims of His perfect plan as He will us to do as He wish on a whim, but we are responsible for having a sin nature and screwing up? What did He expect? Imperfect beings will always screw up. If He doesn't want us to sin then He shouldn't have willed the fall of mankind with all its consequences. If He doesn't want people to sin, then He should make them perfect right away instead of working in them ever so slowly and over a period of a hundred of years and punishing them for being imperfect and screwing up. How could people be responsible for their sins if they didn't even ask to be born into this world and with a sin nature they didn't ask for? And tell you what, unsaved people have it easy. They only have the carnal mind, not the Holy Spirit. Their flesh and spirit are never fighting it out, never at war with each other, they are never pulled in two different directions, they do not suffer the horrible and horrific agony of temptation because they can do nothing but obey their sin nature, so they never suffer from those horribly painful struggles. They are lucky indeed. Being unsaved seem a blessing compared to that. Apparently, being saved is worse than being unsaved. If you serve and follow Jesus, you have to suffer, hurt like hell, agonize all the time and your life is 1% happiness and 99% suffering. If you're unsaved, you're at peace with yourself and you never suffer from those inner struggles. If you are saved and you are Christian, if you serve and follow Jesus, you have to live an extremely unhealthy life of constant and ceaseless suffering, schizophrenic inner struggles against yourself and temptation and die to self all the time which means that taking care of yourself, caring about yourself and listening to yourself is a gross, wicked and disgusting crime. We have to bring our already unhealty life to a even more unhealthy level ; always loving others, caring about others, taking care of others, taking care of others' needs but never not in a zillion years think about our own needs and caring about ourselves or taking care of ourselves for only one second. And apparently, according to countless a life of following abd serving Jesus is a life of denying oneself. That means a life of living an extremely unhealthy life. We don't exist, we exist only to serve others and take care of their needs all the time. And some people wonder why so many individuals suffer from mental illnesses and end up in psychiatric hospitals. Because they neglect themselves way too much and exhaust themselves to death always taking care of other people's needs, taking care of others, serving others, denying themselves to the most unhealthy level. And that's what I did my whole life. Always taking care of other people's needs, always taking care of others, always caring about others. Denying myself and neglecting myself completely until it destroyed my life. Maybe that's why I have so many psychological health problems. And what did I get? I was abused, walked all over, humiliated, despised and rejected by the very people I so unhealthily neglected myself for and worked myself to death for. And no one ever took care of me, of MY needs, of MY health. When people needed me I was there for them, but when I need someone I don't have anyone. And apparently, God just doesn't care because He doesn't allow anyone close to me. He allowed so many evil horrors and atrocities, willed most of them. Like Romans and Greeks throwing men into arenas just to watch those men kill each others or being eaten alive by starved lions. In the Bible, He at least prevented SOME of the atrocities and sometimes intervene. Today, He doesn't intervene or interfere at all when atrocities are being committed...

Here's another good one that express how I feel:       

"Why do You seem to want to crush whatever I undertake, even when my motive was to live the gospel, not to mention serve Your Church?! Perhaps I could deal with some of my misfortune better was it caused by my committing some terrible sin - but most of it stemmed from genuinely trying to 'do for these least of my brethren.'

Oh, I know I'm supposed to meditate on your Passion - but that no longer works. (When you were my age, you were long dead!) I know your sufferings were horrible, but they lasted about 3 days! How would you have liked to have a much longer life, failing at everything you undertook for the Church, acting with love and being misinterpreted and treated with cruelty, shivering with fear at what else is going wrong or shall soon?

I remember well, from childhood, when the buzz words were 'offer it up.' Well, I'm damned sick of 'offering it up.' I'm all alone, aching, knowing I believe every word of your revelation and wondering why. It's all a game - a "Pollyanna" game of pretending nothing matters. I beg you to help me, just for some relief, some support, but I'm just supposed to pretend "your grace is enough for me."

I have known people who are cruel, self-absorbed, avaricious, sometimes even wicked (and You know what I mean... I'm not talking about the common weakness of humanity), yet there have been places in the Church where they were valued. All I have from You is rejection! Way out there, there is some dim, imperceptible business called "God's will." We cannot know what it is... all we know that it usually involves rejection. I'm damned sick of a life filled with "it wasn't God's will."

(The rest I shall not post, since it is too personal... but I don't know why I'm even praying to You. Perhaps I'm trying to placate You, fearful you'll harm me all the more. Or are you punishing me because, even what I wanted was simple and good - a chance to use talents for your Church - you are angry that I wanted more than I have? Or are you making a worm of me because you love giving us suffering and humiliation so much?)"

And here's another one:

"I remember a rant in about 1985 in an Anglican church in British Columbia - the church empty except for me, the ranter - everything turning to sh*t around me. The problem and the substance of the rant:

All those precedents in the Bible and Church history where God came to rescue His people and why, oh why, did that situation not prevail right now. (Isn't that respect of persons?)

All those promises of fellowship, strength, clarity of vision, etc - 'lo I am with you' (yeah, right!) which I was supposed to interpret and promote amongst God's people from the pulpit and they appeared not to be true.

The fact that if God were a parent someone would be quite justified in calling in the social workers to intervene. If he were a manager, the board of directors would be quite justified in firing him.

At least that's how I felt at the time.

I'm of the opinion that you have to mention the distance which exists between what has been promised and what is actually the case. I would go as far as to say that silence in the face of real or perceived non-fulfillment of his promises is non-faith and that one bitc*es precisely because one believes.

Do we remain stuck in the rant forever? Probably not, but that's not the point."

And another one:

"And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!

Looking over every part of the scriptures, it seems that all you want your people to do is look for the puzzle! Old Testament patriarchs wondering what would come of the covenant - later OT figures waiting for the Messiah - New Testament ones trying not to mind that the world had not changed with your resurrection, but believing that your full glory (and a little peace for this horrible world!) was at hand - and, then, the final "let's try to make sense of this" in believing that everything was only half fulfilled - it would all work out at the Last Judgement.

Truth does not win! Some people die in prison for crimes they did not commit. Good people have their reputations ruined, and those who calumniated them are believed - even when one would think there was sufficient proof of the goodness for no one to believe the calumny.

What is it with You? Do you enjoy seeing your children begging You for help, then tossing them aside with being indifferent? Do you honestly think that this miserable world is any less so because of some remote promise of eternal bliss after we die?"

Those people feel exactly the way I do. Yes, Jesus. Michelle is not perfect, Michelle doesn't take everything well and Michelle is angry. But I'm not stupid. You say: "Take it out on Me, take it all out on Me. I can take it like no one else, just get it out of your system." But who will be left to deal with even more guilt and shame? Nice try. On my way for another Bible study, for what it's worth. And if I'm being PMSing on Jesus, this is just the worst of all humiliation ever. Spiritual crisis + PMS = being in hell. I think I'm going to get some fresh air, then I'll feel better. That spiritual crisis has to end sooner or later. It can't last forever. Please, pray for me people. I love you all, beloved brothers and sisters. Even Thinktank and Micah, even though I've been a little harsh to them. Forgive me...   
 

Quote from: Molly on March 07, 2011, 11:25:03 AM
Praying for you, Michelle.


17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

--James 1

Thank you, Molly. As that guy said: "See it's not like one is able to give up belief. You can't help yourself believing. God is just there. And it's not like you don't believe all the stuff you're supposed to believe about him, about him being love and merciful and so on, and the Incarnation etc. It's that none of that makes an impact in the relationship between the soul and God - and therein lies the grief and sorrow. And the bitterness of being human." And: "I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!" JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation."

And I'll just keep on loving Him. Because it's all I can do and it's all I have...

Hi Michelle,

After knowing that God is in control of the universe and everything that happens in our lives, how does that make you feel toward God? Are you mad at God? Doesn't it say to forgive those who tresspass against us? Couldn't that apply to God also? Maybe God is teaching you forgivness. How can we learn forgiveness if no one ever does anything for us to forgive them of?

I think we all will have to forgive God for everything bad that happens in our lives because God could intervene any time he choses to, sometimes he doesn't because we learn something from every single thing that happens to us, be it good or bad.

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm

CHB

I've had terrible things happen to me like everyone else.  I can look back and say that was horrible to live through.  I can look at the present and say this is very difficult or maybe even life threatening.  But, never never did it ever occur to me to blame God. 

That's not to say I haven't often called out to him with the cry of Christ, Where are you?  I have.

My personal feeling about it is that there is a war going on in the heavenlies, and we can often become [temporary] collateral damage.  I don't take it personally except to note that we are born out of due time and thus living in this evil age  Paul tells us it the result of the rulers [kosmokrator] of the darkness of this world, the result of spiritual wickedness in high [heavenly] places, wherefore he compels us to put on the full armor of God for protection against these and so we can stand in the day of evil.  Should I blame God because of this rebellion?  Whether I should or not, I don't.

But, if someone does blame him, he has given the ultimate sacrifice himself--for our benefit, healing, and restoration.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I want to say something very important to me. In the last few minutes, I've just realized something. It's all in a message that James sent to me and my reply to his message:

"Hi Michelle. In my life away from Tentmaker I work in the Behavioral Health field. It really sounds like you've experienced a lot of trauma in your life. Not that you should be "locked in a psych ward" or something as you fear your mom might do, but do you think it might be worth getting in to talk to a counselor (preferably one that's a believer)? Even though I'm in St. Louis, Missouri, I kind of know what to look for, and I may be able to help you get in somewhere for an appointment. They might really be able to help.  I'm a pretty firm believer that sometimes God uses others, including professionals, to help us. Would you be willing to consider that?  I believe we all need help from time to time, and especially if we've had so much to deal with as you have had. Take care, James."


"I have a disability that prevents me from orienting myself in my own hometown. I often get lost. I can't take the bus or the subway all by myself and on my own. I rarely see my family and I have no friend outside the Internet. I also have a tight budget. There is no counselor in my immediate area. But I have the Internet. If you know a website with counselors that are believers, please, send me a link.

Thank you very much for taking some of your time to write to me and thanks for caring. Even on the TM website and among Christian Universalists, some people don't have that patience. Still, I see that most people here at TM have a lot and I mean a lot of patience. That is proof to me that they are men and women of God. Jesus showed me infinite amount of patience. Sometimes I hate myself and I beat myself over the head with so many things. The main one is: "How can you be so ungrateful? You don't thank Him enough for the good things and the blessings and when you are put through the bad things, you take it out on Him."

But a guy said:

"Well, I think God is big enough to handle all the shouting in the world. So I'm not too bothered about people yelling at him. It does perturb me, though, when people get offended on God's behalf, because that way lies the Crusades, the Inquisition and any number of nasty bits in the history of Christendom.

Then again, I'm sure JL would regard me as blasphemous, too, because on more than one occasion I've told God to light a fire under it and fix whatever problem I'm facing. I've even done a bit of Teresa of Avila in there -- on more than one occasion I have let God know in no uncertain terms that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why people think he doesn't exist. I am not particularly nice, awestruck or reverential in my conversations with the Almighty. And it works for me, because there are times when I know his answer is "well, smart ass, knock yourself out, let's see you do a better job than me".

We need to be honest with God. By pretending everything is smiles and sunshine we are not only lying to God, but also we are insulting him. Do you really think he's so petty that he can't take some ranting and raving? That's a human limitation, not divine. It's YOUR problem if it bothers you, not God's.

I also have to say that in light of the background of one of the posts on this thread, the advice to "realize the problem lies with you" is not only the most cold-hearted, erroneous, steaming pile of corn-infested pigsh*t I've ever heard, but it is INCREDIBLY DAMAGING AS WELL. I'm just stunned."

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=11;t=000243 (See post number 2).

So it all comes down to honesty, huh? Telling God how I really feel because He can handle it? Because He can read my mind and it's not like He doesn't already know how I feel? Because if I didn't do it, I would be lying to Him and insulting Him? I am often awestruck, dumbstruck and at a loss of words at the infinite amount of patience that Jesus show me. I don't deserve it. Gary and the people at TM are right. God really IS Love. I mean, I have experienced His pure, perfect love once or twice, but when you are hit by a mega storm and you go through a spiritual crisis, all you can see is the waves and the s*it thrown at you. Especially when you're hit pretty hard. I'll keep that lesson in mind next time. Wow, incredible. God is using you mightily to talk to me and show me how much He cares. Praise Him for that. Thank you for writing to me. I feel much better now.

The Fundies can say that Christian Universalism is a heresy and a lie from Satan himself as much as they want, God has been (and still is) proving me many times over, again, again and again that I am on the right path, the path that He wants me on and that the truth will triumph.

Still, If you have a link to a website, please send it to me, it might come in handy.

I have to contact Gary now. He has asked to talk to me and I haven't contacted him yet. Which is a good thing if you ask me. I can only thank God I didn't attack the poor man. Gary is such a kind man. I would've ended up hating myself if I had taken it out on him.

Sincerely,

Michelle.   

"How can we learn forgiveness if no one ever does anything for us to forgive them of? I think we all will have to forgive God for everything bad that happens in our lives because God could intervene any time he choses to, sometimes he doesn't because we learn something from every single thing that happens to us, be it good or bad."

So true, my friend, so true. And that reminds me of something Gary said in one of his articles. He said, how am I supposed to love my enemies unless I have enemies to love? All of this is food for thought...

"After knowing that God is in control of the universe and everything that happens in our lives, how does that make you feel toward God? Are you mad at God? Doesn't it say to forgive those who tresspass against us? Couldn't that apply to God also?"

Never had a truer word. And since He forgives all of our sins and suffered horribly for us, not forgiving Him is the vilest and lowest someone can do. Ugh, I am so ashamed of myself.

Maybe the unforgivable sin is rejecting His forgiveness. Which doesn't seem to be so unforgivable since He forgave me for that too. Then why does the scriptures call "unforgivable" which is apparently forgivable/forgiven? Some say that the unforgivable sin is attributing God's work to Satan because the people in the Bible accused Jesus of casting demons out by Belzebul, prince of the demons. If that was the unforgivable, then you can bet your bottom dollar that a lot and I mean a lot (not to say all) of people would be guilty of just that, because I think everyone at some point in their lives, gave credit to Satan when it was God in control of the universe and everything that happened to them. Even I am guilty of that. Was, since He forgave me and cleansed me. What I don't get is why the Bible says that those who commit the unforgivable sin "will not be forgiven, not in this life nor in the next". God keeps proving that this verse is wrong. Gary said not to throw out scriptures and blame them on the lying pen of the scribes. Then how do you explain that one? If you have read my previous posts in that thread, you know that no english translation of the Bible is perfect and without error, why I feel more comfortable with the 1611 KJV (though I study many Bibles and I believe that God can use any scripture to teach us something), so maybe that verse is rendered differently in other Bibles. I dunno. I haven't checked yet...

I am new to a lot of this and certainly believe that God is big enough to take our anger at him with understanding and love.

I do struggle with the idea that he is personally behind, and has planned, all the suffering that there is - though I believe he is with us in it and that suffering is somehow redemptive.

Quote from: Michelle"I have a disability that prevents me from orienting myself in my own hometown. I often get lost. I can't take the bus or the subway all by myself and on my own. I rarely see my family and I have no friend outside the Internet.

I am wondering if there is some kind of external solution to this.  I have a friend with a similar disability [she has early alzheimer's] and we got her a phone with a gps that talks to you and tells you where you are and what route to take.  There should be a way to get these devices through a donation program for those in need.

I once took the subway in Japan because I wanted to leave the city and see the country.  This was going to be a two hour trip and I didn't speak the language at all.  The hotel wrote on a piece of paper the Japanese words for the place I was going and, on the other side, the words for the Hotel that I would be returning to.  I made the entire trip showing this paper to people.  They took me under their wing and passed me off to other people when they left the train or when I had to change trains.  It was some kind of miracle lol.  I never spoke a word to any of them because I couldn't speak their language.  But, I was passed from kind hands to kind hands until I reached my destination-- in both directions.

Not that I am recommending doing that here lol, Japan is a different society.  But, there are ways to overcome these problems.  We just need to find them.

Another verse that just doesn't make any sense and can only be wrong. The scriptures say that "He cannot deny Himself". But Jesus is God in the flesh and Jesus was forsaken by God when He died on the cross with the sins of the world upon Him, so we can say that He denied Himself. And isn't it what He has done His entire life on earth? Denied Himself for the sake of His children? How can God possibly forsake and deny Himself? Some say that God completely separated Himself from Jesus at that moment. But that's impossible isn't it? Jesus is God! They are one and the same! That verse just doesn't make any sense and can only be wrong. How do you explain that one? And I think that's where the myth of eternal separation from God comes from. The way I see it, that's what happened. Humans being sinful could only be separated from God who is 100% perfect, pure and holy. Not just because imperfection, impurity and wickedness are opposites of that, but also because in that state, direct contact with Him (not in the flesh but in His pure Spirit form) would've killed us (the scriptures says, "no one can see God face-to-face and live.") I'm not 100% sure, but I think that verse precedes Jesus's death on the cross (the reconciliation with God). Impure and imperfect men couldn't be in direct contact with God at that time and live. That's why He couldn't send the Holy Spirit to live in people (that's as much direct contact with Him you can have in this life) BEFORE the works of the cross, the reconciliation with God! But God being Love, loved His children so much that He couldn't and wouldn't have that separation last, neither in this life nor in the next. That's why He became flesh and dwelt among us. So that He could take the punishment for us, take our sins upon Him, experience some kind of separation (from Himself? That will probably remain a mystery just like the Trinity Himself) and reconcile us back to Himself so that He can eventually have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Then He sent the Holy Spirit to live in us because the works of the cross enabled direct (as much of it as possible in this life and He has His reasons for that as well) contact between us and God. And since He experienced and took that kind of separation upon Himself, all will eventually be saved and there is no eternal separation from God because He just wouldn't have that. So the Fundies are dead wrong. Even if the consequence for sin was eternal separation from God, God just wouldn't have that and He came up with a plan to make sure that it would never happen and the works of the cross, His sacrifice and the reconciliation was that plan. Wow. So much of it makes perfect sense now. There are still a lot of things that remain unexplained; like separation from Himself (on the cross), why we can't have the full direct contact with Him right now (the whole thing), why He doesn't come back on the earth right now so that He can teach us the exact same way He taught those Bible back in the days. And He has a reason for everything, so what we don't understand now because of our finite mind and carnal mind will someday be perfectly clear to us. In the spiritual real. But Gary posted a message on this thread and he said... that men who knew Him after the flesh didn't understand stuff and that only after people have known Him after the Spirit (like Paul), did they really start understanding the scriptures (the scriptures are spiritual and the carnal mind cannot understand them, he said! People had not received the Holy Spirit back then so they couldn't be born again!) As long as God was on earth in the flesh, the Holy Spirit couldn't come. Because He had a plan and He had His own reasons for that. Mainly because the works of the cross had to precede the second birth, direct contact with Him (as much of it as we can have in this life according to His perfect plan, which is still in action as He is completing His work in us)! I'm starting to understand a lot of the things Gary said!

Wow, just wow!!!! My Lord and my God!!!! Praise God for that spiritual crisis for He really had a reason for it and worked it all out for good!!!!

:bowing: :bowing: :bowing:   

Thank you so much for sending me that article:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm

God is using you mightily. They'll never get me to believe that sh*t ever again, they won't :mnah: :

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Sermons/Dr%20Jack%20Hyles/to_hell_and_back.htm

Sure there is still a residue of fear and anxiety in me. It's normal after so many years of endoctrination and brainwashing. That's the aftermatch. But God has worked a lot of healing in me and I know that He will complete that work just like all the others. And I think we should pray for ourselves and for each others and ask God to completely free us from all the residues of fear and anxiety left in us due to past endotrination and to bring more of His healing into our lives. Let's ask Him to deprogram us from the years of crap loaded into us by the church and Fundies (endoctrination, brainwashing, traditions of men and doctrines of demons, lies, false beliefs, etc.)

If you have read my testimony in the "Welcome" topic, you know that back when I was a Fundy (about a month ago) I was about to commit suicide when God when God revealed the truth of UR to me. After spending countless nights sobbing and begging Him to send me to eternal torture in billions of people's place (including my unsaved family members, which is pretty much my whole family) because the love and compassion that had overtaken me due to His work were stronger than my fear (they weren't my own, no one human and imperfect has that kind of love and compassion that surpasses all fears), I saw and read that article, which drove me this close to suicide. If God hadn't interfered, I'd be a goner. But it wasn't my time to die. I will post it right now. The article that drove me this close to suicide and very nearly finished me off. Don't let the devil or those people fill your mind with images and sounds! Humble yourself before God and tell what the humble archangel Michael said to Satan: "May the Lord rebuke you."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/billions_of_people_going_to_hell.htm

That article that drove me this close to suicide and very nearly finished me off, God worked it out for my good and for good. All the Fundies will eventually be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Just like everyone else. The 1611 King James Bible whose translators pretty much started the whole E.T (false) doctrine in the english translations and caused (and still causes) a lot of mental, emotionally, physical and spiritual damage, but just like all translations, it is a tool of God, all part of His perfect plan and work... God worked it out for my good and work it out for the good of all, you can be sure of that. It's no coincidence that God brought that Fundie friend into my life and had him send me that specific Bible translation. I was using the 1611 King James when I got saved. God worked it out for my good and work it out for the good of all. No english translation is perfect and without error. And somehow, I think I now know why! I think God revealed something to me that in time, He will reveal to the Fundies and eventually everyone else. God uses imperfect tools! God uses temporal imperfection to work out and bring eternal perfection! Imperfection serves a purpose! My Lord and my God!!!! Oh, my Lord and my God!!!! I am most blessed on this very day!!!! You work it all out for the ultimate good of all mankind!!!! Praise you Lord!!!! All glory, honour and praise to you for ever and ever, my beloved King and Master!!!! I rejoice and rest in You and in Your love and I love You with all my heart and all my mind and all my strength, oh my precious and beloved Jesus!!!! :giveheart:

If I was any happier, the dogs in my neighborhood would  hear the ultrasounds of my happiness, I could just shout it on the rooftops!!!! I LOVE MY LORD, JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL MY HEART AND ALL MY MIND AND ALL MY STRENGTH!!!! I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM, I LOVE HIM SO MUCH!!!!

:myahoo: :bowing: :bowing: :bowing:   

(http://lorimoon.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jesus_hugging_woman.jpg)
(Artist: ??? Unknown)

I'm not complaining, because God is good.  God's been dealing with my sin in this area by leading me over and over to just humble myself before Him.  When my flesh wants to find fault with Him and accuse Him, He keeps bringing me to bow before Him.  I'm reminded of Job.  Thankfully, I've not had to go through close to what he experienced, but it's for our learning.  He said "though God slay me, yet I will trust Him".  God bless.

Quote from: jabcat on March 08, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
I'm not complaining, because God is good.  God's been dealing with my sin in this area by leading me over and over to just humble myself before Him.  When my flesh wants to find fault with Him and accuse Him, He keeps bringing me to bow before Him.  I'm reminded of Job.  Thankfully, I've not had to go through close to what he experienced, but it's for our learning.  He said "though God slay me, yet I will trust Him".  God bless.

Thanks for the advice. But getting angry is not a sin, it's a human reaction and it happens to everyone. And Honesty is important. He taught me that. God is big enough to take our anger at him with understanding and love, so getting it out of our system is a good thing, and if that happens, that only means we're human. As humans, we have human limitations. People are not perfect and beating ourselves over the head for being imperfect is unhealthy, even though I'm struggling with that a lot. It's still killing me because I wish I was a perfect daughter. If I didn't love Him that much, I wouldn't care. But no one will ever be perfect in this life, so what else can I do but live with and eventually accept my imperfections? I think my obssession with perfection comes from my childhood. Always trying to please mommy and daddy, but whatever I did, it was never enough. My younger sister was the favorite. She didn't have a disability and behavioral problems, so she wasn't a burden. Later on, my parents divorced and some of my family members told me that it was my fault. I tried to keep my family from falling apart, but I failed. I was switched from school to school because I had a hard time functioning due to my disability. I was a freak and didn't have any friend. Since my parents were divorced, I was switched from one place to the other. I tried anything and everything to please my parents, from good marks in school to keeping my room clean, but whatever I did, it was never enough. I never felt loved. My father was a drug-addict and an alcoholic. My mother was a control freak and because she was beaten up as a kid, she did the same to me. I love my mother, but I never felt loved by my parents. I always have that big fear of disappointing God and hurting Him. Because that's all I ever do. I always disappoint and sadden people. And sometimes, I just feel like I'm not doing enough for Him. Sometimes, I neglect my prayer life or Bible study, or I don't minister enough or I don't spend enough time talking to Him in my mind and I hate myself for that. And I'm so ashamed of myself that I cry in frustration. And never in my entire life have I ever loved anyone more than I love Jesus. Even if sometimes I get angry at Him, it doesn't mean that I don't love Him. Quite the opposite. If I was perfect, I would never screw up, sin or neglect any of those things. Sometimes I just wish I wasn't so obssess with perfection. I just wish I could stop thinking that if I'm not perfect and sinless I don't deserve the pure, perfect love of a perfect, spotless God. And I wish I could stop thinking that if I am not perfect and if I screw up, sin or neglect any of the above, that means I don't love God enough and I have to do better. Why He loves someone as imperfect and undeserving as myself is beyond my understanding. I just don't understand. He's so perfect and pure and holy and I'm a worm...

:crywipe::crywipe::crywipe: The truth is I am ignorant. You hear that? I'm ignorant. I don't even know where I'm going. I have tried reading books and articles and even question people about it, but they all make it complicated. I don't really know how to build a relationship with Him because I never really had a relationship with anyone and I totally suck at it! And people with an Asperger Disorder, the kind of disability I have, have a hard time socializing with people, not just because they are rejected but because they have a hard time communicating the way normal people do, so how in hell am I supposed to build a normal relationship with the Lord? I don't even know where I'm going. I've been talking with other Christians over the Internet, but I never really had other Christians around me, so I have never really seen people praying or studying their Bibles or having any kind of communication with God, so I don't even know the order of importance and priorities and how things have to be done, in which specific order and the frequency. I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to worship. Some people use music, writings and words, but I have no idea what is normal and appropriate. I don't want to anywhere near a church ever again, because of all the crap that is been said in there and how they have treated me. Besides, I'm Christian and there are only idolatrous Catholic churches in my area. And even if there were Christian churches in my area, the last thing I need to hear is speeches on dancing flames and screams of agony. But I don't know how to remedy to my ignorance on how to build a better relationship with the Lord. I feel so pathetic. And I am so sick and so tired of crying all the time. I'm 28 and all I ever do is cry like a baby, this so humiliating. I don't understand why He suffers me like that. Why did He create me with a disability that makes me a freak and an handicapee is also beyond my understanding. Why creating me with something that people hate and reject and something that hinders my relationship with Him? If I wasn't slow at learning and understanding stuff, I would be on the same level as normal people are and I would know how to build a better relationship with Him. But ever since I got saved, I feel that I got stuck somewhere and I don't even know what I'm doing wrong and what I'm not doing. I just read articles on people who talk about their relationship with Him and it just seems that I can't have what they have. I've had one or two intense moments, but they never lasted more than two days. I thought it would change now that I am a Christian Universalist, but I just feel like my relationship with Him is hardly going anywhere so maybe I'm just not good enough at this...

Quote from: Michelle on March 09, 2011, 06:45:19 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 08, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
I'm not complaining, because God is good.  God's been dealing with my sin in this area by leading me over and over to just humble myself before Him.  When my flesh wants to find fault with Him and accuse Him, He keeps bringing me to bow before Him.  I'm reminded of Job.  Thankfully, I've not had to go through close to what he experienced, but it's for our learning.  He said "though God slay me, yet I will trust Him".  God bless.

Thanks for the advice. But getting angry is not a sin, it's a human reaction and it happens to everyone. And Honesty is important. He taught me that. God is big enough to take our anger at him with understanding and love, so getting it out of our system is a good thing, and if that happens, that only means we're human. As humans, we have human limitations. People are not perfect and beating ourselves over the head for being imperfect is unhealthy, even though I'm struggling with that a lot.

I could probably be a little more clear.  I do believe it's OK to ask God for wisdom, understanding.  But it's been awhile now that I've really struggled with some of the things I see in the world, and sometimes I feel an anger and a blame rise up in me toward God, and I'm convicted that's wrong, sin in me.  I confess it/ask forgiveness, and often feel led, as I said above, to humble myself before Him.  It's been quite a problem for me, and I believe it boils down to stubborness, pride, plus other things on my part.  I AM NOT good at this, but I guess I personally think I need to ask God for help, to take that anger and blame away, and He's been working with me on it.   I'm reminded of this scripture;

"What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?'  Isaiah 45:9.

I'm guilty, but yes, He loves and forgives us.  He is our Deliverer, and His grace is sufficient to cover and meet all our frailties and failures.  He is growing us into His likeness.   "There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".

If my confession helps you, great.  If not, no condemnation from me.  Everyone's walk is ultimately between them and God and He loves you immensely.  We need to lift each other up, pray for, and help each other.  God bless, James.

Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2011, 08:55:10 AM

Quote from: Michelle on March 09, 2011, 06:45:19 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 08, 2011, 04:09:28 AM
I'm not complaining, because God is good.  God's been dealing with my sin in this area by leading me over and over to just humble myself before Him.  When my flesh wants to find fault with Him and accuse Him, He keeps bringing me to bow before Him.  I'm reminded of Job.  Thankfully, I've not had to go through close to what he experienced, but it's for our learning.  He said "though God slay me, yet I will trust Him".  God bless.

Thanks for the advice. But getting angry is not a sin, it's a human reaction and it happens to everyone. And Honesty is important. He taught me that. God is big enough to take our anger at him with understanding and love, so getting it out of our system is a good thing, and if that happens, that only means we're human. As humans, we have human limitations. People are not perfect and beating ourselves over the head for being imperfect is unhealthy, even though I'm struggling with that a lot.

I could probably be a little more clear.  I do believe it's OK to ask God for wisdom, understanding.  But it's been awhile now that I've really struggled with some of the things I see in the world, and sometimes I feel an anger and a blame rise up in me toward God, and I'm convicted that's wrong, sin in me.  I confess it/ask forgiveness, and often feel led, as I said above, to humble myself before Him.  It's been quite a problem for me, and I believe it boils down to stubborness, pride, plus other things on my part.  I AM NOT good at this, but I guess I personally think I need to ask God for help, to take that anger and blame away, and He's been working with me on it.   I'm reminded of this scripture;

"What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?'  Isaiah 45:9.

I'm guilty, but yes, He loves and forgives us.  He is our Deliverer, and His grace is sufficient to cover and meet all our frailties and failures.  He is growing us into His likeness.   "There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus".

If my confession helps you, great.  If not, no condemnation from me.  Everyone's walk is ultimately between them and God and He loves you immensely.  We need to lift each other up, pray for, and help each other.  God bless, James.

I wish I could believe you, James. And maybe soon enough I will. But not right now. Not when I see stuff like this... I have some spiritual issues to deal with first...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyCvp2QJSiE

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/sergemonast1994transcript.shtml

"What are the New World Order plans? They plan the destruction of all people who believe in the Bible, who worship Jesus Christ, and the complete disappearance of Christianity to achieve this plan."

If God creates, do and control all evil, why is He planning the destruction of Christianity?

http://www.educate-yourself.org/cn/projectbluebeam25jul05.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rjHBceI7Uo

((((((((:upset:))))))))

First of all, I sense the links are something I'd personally prefer to not see and fill my mind with - "whatsoever things are pure and of a good report, think on these things".

There's only One between us and the Father - Jesus.  And He's our advocate.  Ask Him.  He has the answers.

Just a quick remark to the general issue here . . . I think when we blame God for the bad things happening . . .killing, murdering, raping . . . for me, to blame God is a misdirection.  It goes all the way back to the garden . . .the ONLY thing Adam was instructed NOT to do was eat of the tree of knowledge . . .the tree wasn't just a tree, it was a realm . . .everything in this realm is governed by natural supremacy.  The realm was created as a balance to the realm of life.  But it wasn't God's desire for Adam to become controlled by it.  If anyone is to blame, it's Adam . . .not God. 

I think many people view God as this over-worked parent trying to care after a totally spoiled child.  It's the parent's responsibility to keep the child from hurting itself, from destroying it's surroundings . .on and on . . .so when we see just the opposite, we ASSUME God isn't keeping his promise.  But God wasn't the one that reversed the order of blessing, Adam was the moment he received from his Eve the fruit of knowledge.  He became what he ate.  And what he ate took control over him.

So now that we're in this realm, God allows things to transpire for the purpose of bringing revelational truth to the rest of his creation.  We want to focus on the fraction of godless people who were bound to an old covenant (Old Testament) but in doing so, that distracts us from seeing Love manifest to the rest of the world his nature and truth THROUGH those few who, according to Adam's choices, were rejected due to 'their' choices as well. 

But when the New Covenant (New Testament) came into this realm, the Old Covenant was done away with . . .those people that died, ever wonder where they might be now?  Considering that ALL have been redeemed??

QuoteIs that supposed to make it all right? He is behind EVERYTHING evil that happens to everyone

Michelle God does not do any evil towards man, Satan and man are the evil bringers upon others. God is not responsible for what they do.

This is not a popular belief here, but it is the way I see things.

Quote from: pneuma on March 09, 2011, 07:12:32 PM

Michelle God does not do any evil towards man, Satan and man are the evil bringers upon others. God is not responsible for what they do.

This is not a popular belief here, but it is the way I see things.

(I wholeheartedly agree w/ that! it's only logical:)

- - my dear, why read the Olde Testament? The New Testament is what we are given to read which grounds us, most of all, in His Goodness. If the word seems dry / there's a block, maybe try reading an Amplified Version New Testament. If that doesn't knock your socks off, nothing will..
- "our daily bread" - the bread and the wine/spirit/presence of God, daily. If we don't have these two our faith will drown.. our healing be delayed, and likely extend our feelings of suffering..

all the best, and much prayers and affection..

p.s. - we can go from   :dontknow:  :mshock:  :sigh:  to  :icon_king:  :cloud9:

Also remember Michelle God is a big God, not just a Father but also a warrior. He will not sit back and let his enemies destroy his people. Instead of feeling sorry for the people that God brought justice on, rejoice that God has eliminated them out of society.
You see an innocent child, God sees a vengfull man destined to make war and get revenge on the people of Israel. You see an innocent tender woman. God sees a wicked woman, who speaks lies and makes the nations blaspheme the name of God.

Today God does not do these kind of things, because salvation and mercy is available to all. In the old testament a vicious tyrant would stay a vicious tyrant, a harlot would keep being an harlot, but in the new testament, a vicious murderer such as Saul can change into the apostle Paul, a despised harlot can change into one of Gods disciples, all have potential under the new covenant to be better people.

I've been pondering a thought lately, that has come into my mind recently.

"God does not slay the man who is, but he slays the man who isn't."

Which is to say, that God does not kill a human, he kills that which is inhuman so that the human may live.  Or another way to put it, would be that he kills that which will kill us, even if that involves destruction of the body, or the soul.  To save the true-self of a person, sometimes the thing that is called the "self" of a person must die to free the true-self.

Hi there,

Correct me if i'm wrong Michelle but haven't we PM'd each other.  I wrote regarding my OCD!

I'm sorry to see that you are unhappy about your relationship with God.

For what it's worth after you had so many replies, I have been reading a lot of Eckhart Tolle, The power of Now, etc. In it and in his audio lectures, he mentions that everything happens for a reason and humans with our finite minds could NEVER comprehend the universe as God has created it and why certain things happen that 'appear' bad. 
We all have times when we wonder and look at the sometimes absurd things happening, but i trust that God knows exactly what he is doing.
Michelle don't try to understand with the mind, it will just drive you crazy, but try to be still with God and have faith that He will give you peace of mind about this.
You are a survivor remember that. 

Godbless
Nancy

Quote from: Lefein on March 10, 2011, 12:13:45 AM
I've been pondering a thought lately, that has come into my mind recently.

"God does not slay the man who is, but he slays the man who isn't."

Which is to say, that God does not kill a human, he kills that which is inhuman so that the human may live.  Or another way to put it, would be that he kills that which will kill us, even if that involves destruction of the body, or the soul.  To save the true-self of a person, sometimes the thing that is called the "self" of a person must die to free the true-self.

I like it, Lefein.  :thumbsup:  Goes right along with the restoration, earthly things being temporal, and God having a MUCH bigger plan.  Good word  :wink:.

Quote

I like it, Lefein.  :thumbsup:  Goes right along with the restoration, earthly things being temporal, and God having a MUCH bigger plan.  Good word  :wink:.

:laughing7: I'm glad you enjoyed it, it really speaks to me that God just loves us too not to give us The Best, even the best of ourselves.

Quote from: Nathan on March 09, 2011, 06:49:26 PM
Just a quick remark to the general issue here . . . I think when we blame God for the bad things happening . . .killing, murdering, raping . . . for me, to blame God is a misdirection.  It goes all the way back to the garden . . .the ONLY thing Adam was instructed NOT to do was eat of the tree of knowledge . . .the tree wasn't just a tree, it was a realm . . .everything in this realm is governed by natural supremacy.  The realm was created as a balance to the realm of life.  But it wasn't God's desire for Adam to become controlled by it.  If anyone is to blame, it's Adam . . .not God. 

I think many people view God as this over-worked parent trying to care after a totally spoiled child.  It's the parent's responsibility to keep the child from hurting itself, from destroying it's surroundings . .on and on . . .so when we see just the opposite, we ASSUME God isn't keeping his promise.  But God wasn't the one that reversed the order of blessing, Adam was the moment he received from his Eve the fruit of knowledge.  He became what he ate.  And what he ate took control over him.

So now that we're in this realm, God allows things to transpire for the purpose of bringing revelational truth to the rest of his creation.  We want to focus on the fraction of godless people who were bound to an old covenant (Old Testament) but in doing so, that distracts us from seeing Love manifest to the rest of the world his nature and truth THROUGH those few who, according to Adam's choices, were rejected due to 'their' choices as well. 

But when the New Covenant (New Testament) came into this realm, the Old Covenant was done away with . . .those people that died, ever wonder where they might be now?  Considering that ALL have been redeemed??

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm

"THE UNPARDONABLE SIN

That which is usually termed "the unpardonable sin"—blasphemy "against the Holy Spirit"—is the attributing of the work of God's spirit (as this was manifest in the works of God wrought by the Lord Jesus—John 5:36; 9:4; 14:10; etc) to demonic power. To say that the Adversary acted quite independently of God—and of God's intention—in the introducing of sin and estrangement into the universe, is, really, to sin against the Holy Spirit.

God brought the Adversary into being, for all is out of god Rom.11:36), and God had determined beforehand that sin and estrangement would enter the universe through the acts of the Adversary, but this fact must not be considered in isolation. God had also purposed His mighty work of salvation by way of the cross of His beloved Son and, in order to reveal the glory of His saving power in Christ Jesus, God required the dark background of sin and estrangement. God, Who Himself is love, could never have suffered His love to remain for ever unrevealed and unrequited. Had Satan, the Adversary, in introducing (through his activities) sin into the universe, acted in absolute independence of God, then he should be praised for bringing about the condition that gave God the opportunity to manifest His saving grace. God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8).

Until we are able to recognize the mighty power of God, "Who is operating all (and Satan is included in the "all") in accord with the counsel of His will" (Eph.1:11), we cannot avoid attributing to the Adversary what God achieves and will achieve. But this we must refrain from doing, being concerned always to ascribe all praise to God.

It should be known that Satan is not an intruder in God's universe, but rather holds, as the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, high office among God's celestial hosts. In the book of Job, he is referred to as "Satan" and in Hebrew this means "adversary." It is just as necessary that God should have an adversary in His government as it is that He should have any other officer. And adversary opposes, and Satan opposed Job, and thus God had an opportunity to show what His grace and compassion could accomplish for Job (see James 5:11). Without the Adversary, we would not have had the beautiful and uplifting story found in the book of Job. Indeed, had it not been for the Adversary, there would have been no "wisdom of this world" (1 Cor.1:20), against the dark backdrop of which is revealed the glory of Christ, Who is the power and wisdom of God, the universal Saviour (1 Cor.1:18-25).

If those who seek to expound the Scriptures would first of all realize and then proclaim that the Adversary, Satan, fills the role assigned to him (and required of him) by God, and that in that role he is subject to God's authority and control, and can go no further than the limits God has prescribed for him, then there would be less unease within the ranks of Christendom. We close with the words of Paul in Romans11:36:–"

Quote from: Nancy on March 10, 2011, 12:41:10 AM
Hi there,

Correct me if i'm wrong Michelle but haven't we PM'd each other.  I wrote regarding my OCD!

I'm sorry to see that you are unhappy about your relationship with God.

For what it's worth after you had so many replies, I have been reading a lot of Eckhart Tolle, The power of Now, etc. In it and in his audio lectures, he mentions that everything happens for a reason and humans with our finite minds could NEVER comprehend the universe as God has created it and why certain things happen that 'appear' bad. 
We all have times when we wonder and look at the sometimes absurd things happening, but i trust that God knows exactly what he is doing.
Michelle don't try to understand with the mind, it will just drive you crazy, but try to be still with God and have faith that He will give you peace of mind about this.
You are a survivor remember that. 

Godbless
Nancy

No, sorry. We never PM'd each other. You're mistaking me for someone else. I'm new, so that happens to me too sometimes. But if you wanna talk or something, feel free to PM me. I guess you're right. There are some issues I have to work on with Him...

Quit watching the stuff. Get into the Word, read and study what the Word teaches. If you dont know by now and maybe you dont, when people of the world spread and report stuff via TV and now Youtube it has only one purpose and that is to attempt to undermine the Truth. Either you believe that God is the Master of All this is about or you do not. I believe that Jesus Christ died and was crucified for the sins of the Whole World and that the world will do all and anything it can to bring sand under my foundation, it will not. Earthquakes happen and many are lost at times, the same with floods and other earthly calamities and catastrophys, but to question the Creator's love for mankind as tho He is bad or does not care is simply foolishness. God is Spirit and those who worship Him will worship in Spirit and Truth. He has purpose and reason, just because you or me have not come to know and understand the Wisdom of His works, well its only a pause to His knowledge.
Hab 2:3  For yet the vision is for a season, And it breatheth for the end, and doth not lie, If it tarry, wait for it, For surely it cometh, it is not late.

Quote from: pneuma on March 09, 2011, 07:12:32 PM

QuoteIs that supposed to make it all right? He is behind EVERYTHING evil that happens to everyone

Michelle God does not do any evil towards man, Satan and man are the evil bringers upon others. God is not responsible for what they do.

This is not a popular belief here, but it is the way I see things.

The only way to prevent suffering is if God never created rational beings, no thinking ability allowed ever, all things programmed.

Yet in this way we see God as in control of all things, yet not. Yet ultimately yes! Even the fall of high angel Lucifer. Not a surprise to God. First rebel thought was bound to happen. And God chose to create the universe and man and woman only aFter Lucifer had gone rebel and seditious. Why? So we all would take this unavoidable journey and lesson together once for all time and eternity, otherwise one would wander away now, another later.. and later.. and later another, and so on, taking virtually for ever.

When God in His great and glorious wisdom endowed thinking ability to angel and man a whole new world/tree 'came to be'.. Being responsible for it, He built the rescue in from the beginning / "from the foundation of the world" - "This is the decree. you are my Son.." the "only begotten of God" the only straight out from God.. "the firstborn of all creation".. The very first thing God did, He did for us, and with an eye to the 'end'.. and has done all things in order to bring about THE BEST possibility and reality possible. {A family and an un-breakable paradise, for the full understanding and knowing of good from evil / life from death will be deeply etched on every heart, mind and psyche. He is creating His Family and an eternally un-breakable perfect Eden-like paradise (likely spreading to other planets?) "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow".}  :bgdance: :bgdance:  :icon_flower:

The New Testament is our loaf from which we get our daily bread.. Isn't there a verse which says listen to no bad report? Instead, whatsoever things are good, whatsoever things are uplifting.. This is the new covenant, the bread and the wine/the Spirit.. daily.. Who is God? "God is love", all love, the love we feel for someone, or anyone, and everyone. That is Him.

"The New Testament is our loaf from which we get our daily bread" Marie glen

I believe that it is the Old Testament, the scriptures is our "loaf" and it is through our rebirth and the regeneration of our spirit  that we can digest and bring forth what His Word teaches of old. Paul and all the Apostles read(ate) from the old testament, the Scriptures and learned and taught from that wisdom along with the enlightenment received from the knowing the Savoir in human form.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 10, 2011, 04:53:18 AM
Quit watching the stuff. Get into the Word, read and study what the Word teaches. If you dont know by now and maybe you dont, when people of the world spread and report stuff via TV and now Youtube it has only one purpose and that is to attempt to undermine the Truth. Either you believe that God is the Master of All this is about or you do not. I believe that Jesus Christ died and was crucified for the sins of the Whole World and that the world will do all and anything it can to bring sand under my foundation, it will not. Earthquakes happen and many are lost at times, the same with floods and other earthly calamities and catastrophys, but to question the Creator's love for mankind as tho He is bad or does not care is simply foolishness. God is Spirit and those who worship Him will worship in Spirit and Truth. He has purpose and reason, just because you or me have not come to know and understand the Wisdom of His works, well its only a pause to His knowledge.
Hab 2:3  For yet the vision is for a season, And it breatheth for the end, and doth not lie, If it tarry, wait for it, For surely it cometh, it is not late.

For your information, the NWO is very much real. Do some research on the Internet and get your facts right. Some people have been studying this for months, others for years. It's just as very real as HAARP, Blue Beam, Monarch and Montauk. The Illuminati and Freemasons are behind it. They have taken over the NASA and they will project an holographic image of a fake Christ in the sky to deceive all nations. A one world governement, one world currency, one world religion. And the proofs are all around. Do a research on how many earthquakes there have been in the last few years. Just last year, for example. You'll be surprised. Think Haiti was a "natural" disaster? That was HAARP and their electromagnetic waves, the ELF towers. I could show you some videos of a holographic image of Jesus in the sky, or a video of holographic fake UFOs. That was Project Blue Beam. You should know by now that your own government is behind the destruction of the WTC. That was to turn americans and muslims against each others. You should watch the videos on Youtube entitled: "Al Qaida doesn't exist". It was an hoax. Bush, Clinton, Obama, Ron Paul, pretty much all USA leaders and many leaders of other countries are Freemasons or Illuminati. They are all in secret societies and they worship Satan. The evil Babylonic system. Ever heard of the Bohemian Grove? Skull & Bones? They worship Moloch, the evil "god" (fallen angel). They talk about Moloch in the Bible. In the Bible, people burned their children to Moloch. And what do the secret society, Skull & Bones, do? They burn children to that evil demon in the Bohemian Grove. They kidnap them and they burn them. And they practice witchcraft, occultism, idolatry. All the horrible things that's been happening lately, you think it was a coincidence? All the earthquakes and the dead birds, fishes and turtles in the USA and the Gulf oil spill. And what happened in Haiti, the earthquake, the flood, the cholera. Do research on chemtrails and ELF towers, on mind-control and behavior modification. You think I should be locked up? You think I'm a conspiracy theorist nutcase? Well you are dead wrong! You are dead wrong, my friend! Do some research on the Internet. Some serious research and you will realize that it all fits. The world leaders worship Satan and they plan to take over the world with mind-control, eletromagnetic energy and microchips and they have death camps like Hitler and they plan to kill anyone who doesn't forsake Jesus Christ. The new-agers are in league with them. The new-agers are for a false one world religion. And there's Raj Patel and Benjamin Creme, they teach Satan worship and they do channeling and communicate with ascended masters who are evil fallen angels. But they pretend to be friendly aliens from outer space. And the Vatican promote that kind of crap. Friendly aliens from outer space. But they are evil spirits, demons. You can bet your bottom dollar that the black pope is behind it all. Or maybe the actual pope. Catholicism is of the devil, believe me. Not only is the Catholic church full of pagan rituals and doctrines, they worship Mary, saints, angels and they pray to dead saints instead of Jesus who is the only mediator and they still believe in salvation by work. And many people who started talking about the NWO, like Michael Jackson, Serge Monast, Tu Pack and plenty of others, were silenced for good and members of their families murdered. The Freemasons and Illuminati even took over the music industry. They put evil spells on Rock & Roll and Rap albums, so that when people listen to them, they are possessed or under demonic oppression. And they do all this with witchcraft. I'm not kidding. Do some serious research on the NWO and you'll find out that it's just as real as you and I. There are thousands of articles and videos out there. I've been studying this for months back when I was a Fundy, as I was begging people to get saved from eternal torture and everlasting wrath. It's all true! Of course, I don't study it anymore. With the ET doctrine, that's just another thing I don't want to think about. Whether the end of the world is coming or not, I just don't want to think about it. The last thing I want to think about is the earth shaking and everything exploding and burning as Jesus comes back and people running in all directions, panicking and screaming and dying in a pool of their own blood. The real Apocalypse. But like I said, if you don't believe me about the NWO, do some serious research. And you say that God has a purpose and reason for everything, including all the evil He creates and does? Well how come He's trying to destroy Christianity? Why the Bible-reading Christians who worship Him? I just don't get it...   

Are not two little sparrows sold for a penny?
And yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's consent and notice.

Um . . .when we spend our energy embedded in natural occurances, we become consumed by our natural reasoning.  There is a reason why we're to fill our minds with heavenly thoughts, principles and truths.  We become what we behold.  I think any president we've had, has had their hands full just trying to run a nation . . .let alone trying to manipulate the whole world through pretend alien activity, then throw in religion as well . . .takes more faith to believe in that than it does to beleive God is all in all.

There really and truly is no worrying in the kingdom.  There is no concern for what tomorrow may or may not bring, for rumors and alarmists, conspirators and conspiracies . .there is no life in that arena.  Should we start to emphasize on those things, we'd be in a constant state of fear and depression at the same time.

Quote from: MichelleAnd you say that God has a purpose and reason for everything, including all the evil He creates and does? Well how come He's trying to destroy Christianity? Why the Bible-reading Christians who worship Him? I just don't get it...   

But don't you find it amazing that all of it is prophesied in the Bible thousands of years ago?

Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.
--Amos 3:7

These things all happen by decree and for a purpose.  I'm with Marie and Pneuma and others who say that God is not doing this, he is making provision for it.

When you have a small child you can exert a lot of control, but you still have to let them make their small mistakes and recover from them or that child will grow up unable to handle big things.  As the child grows you exercise less and less control and substitute guidance.  At some point, that child is fully grown and on his own.

How do you deal with a rebellious teenager?  Lock him up or let him learn the consequences of his actions and try to minimize the damage?  At some point, Man has to grow up.

Think of it like a parent raising a child.  If my three year old writes on the neighbor's walls with a crayon, did I do that or did he?  But, still, I am responsible for him.

I don't know why you say you have a disability, Michelle, you have a mind like a steel trap.  You seem to learn things instantly. :laughing7:

Quote from: NathanThere really and truly is no worrying in the kingdom.  There is no concern for what tomorrow may or may not bring, for rumors and alarmists, conspirators and conspiracies . .there is no life in that arena.  Should we start to emphasize on those things, we'd be in a constant state of fear and depression at the same time.

Or you will know the truth and it will set you free...

If I wake up in a burning house, am I supposed to focus only on beautiful things while the house burns down, or am I supposed to wake everyone up and get them out of there in time?

There's a lot of disinformation about the NWO. According to them, any person who has authority or celiberity status is part of some kind of cult and the U|SA goverment is actually run by a shadow government. If they truly were that powerful we would not be having this discussion, and the US consititution would not exist. Also notice the arrogancy of these conspirator people, they just happen to be Americans and it so happens that all the evil forces are in America controlling the world! I find their view limiting as they only look upon one single country out of the 200+ or so nations in the world. While these conspirators are making out America to be some kind of mystery babylon who shapes the world, the rest of the world is busy doing real world controlling, such as North Korea who threatens other countries with real weapons, and Iran, to name just a few.

I would not go so far as to say everything the conspirators are false, but that they paint a wrong picture of the kind of power these cults currently posses.

Quote from: Molly on March 10, 2011, 07:51:35 PM

Quote from: NathanThere really and truly is no worrying in the kingdom.  There is no concern for what tomorrow may or may not bring, for rumors and alarmists, conspirators and conspiracies . .there is no life in that arena.  Should we start to emphasize on those things, we'd be in a constant state of fear and depression at the same time.

Or you will know the truth and it will set you free...

If I wake up in a burning house, am I supposed to focus only on beautiful things while the house burns down, or am I supposed to wake everyone up and get them out of there in time?

What?  You're making no sense.

I am useless. I am of no use to anyone. And all this because of my disability. I should know because I've tried. God knows I've tried countless times. I'm the most useless Christian and servant of Jesus Christ. It's not like I haven't tried. Stuck in a town where there is pretty much no Christian. Because of my disability, I can't take a job and I live off of social welfare, which is probably a sin since Jesus says in the Bible not to owe anything to anyone. How does He expect the disabled, mentally ill and handiccaped to eat and clothe themselves then? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, I'm totally useless with my damn disability, tight budget and inability to travel on my own. I only have a mother and a sister. My sister is always working so I rarely see her. My mother suffers from Fibromyalgia so she can't travel with me. As a Christian, I'm totally useless. Even the most pathetic of Jesus' disciples wasn't useless. At least, Judas got to betray Jesus, which led to the works of the cross and the salvation of mankind. Even the vilest of the vile and the lowest of the low was mightily used by God and had a purpose. But me, I was apparently destined for uselessness. And for good reason. Why would God let my potential go to waste? Because I simply don't have any. I was doomed to be useless. My life is a farce, a joke. Why was I even born? Why did God bring me into this world? Just to drive me crazy with love for Him and leave me to live with the fact that I will always be His most useless servant? Why giving me that damn and so hated disability? So that I would remain useless, unable to live a normal life? So that I would always have problems socializing and be rejected and as a result, would never learn how to build an okay relationship with anyone and always suck at building relationships? I know that He was rejected by pretty much everyone all His human life, but by putting His children through that, He prevents them from ever learning how to build an okay relationship with Him. You'll never learn how to build a relationship with Him, unless you have learned how and built one with another human. Being disabled sucks. Of what use is it to be saved if you remain useless and you are stuck in your relationship with Jesus and you don't even know how a relationship works?

The Bible always say stuff like, worshipping in spirit and truth, and even though I'm born again, it doesn't make much sense to me. How the heck am I supposed to worship Him if I don't even know how? And when you don't understand certain things, what does people do? They only make things worse for you by saying that you are not saved and born again or you would understand all of these things. They expect you to know everything. Fundies just love that. Making your life even more miserable. And that stuff about living water. Is that supposed to make sense? I'm such a slow learner that I've learned pretty much nothing in the last six months. Not only do I have a disability, I have a defective memory. I always forget half, if not the three-quarter of what I learn. Also, I lived with anxiety, fear, anger and depression pretty much all the time for those six months because I have been very much damaged by a Fundy friend and it's not even his fault because like pretty much everyone else, he has been endoctrinated and brainwashed by the church and society. Programmed to think the way he does. I can't hate him for what he did to me because he's a victim. He will always be my friend and my beloved brother and I will always love him no matter what happens, even if he hurts me and turn his back on me. I am pathetic and useless. I don't even know how to properly worship. I'm an ignorant fool and I hate myself. Why did He lead me to the truth of UR if I am to remain useless and such a slow learner? I have sent emails with some explanations and links to the TM websites. I have received only two or three answers out of the fifty emails I've sent. It's not like I'm teaching them endless woe, so what is their problem? Why do people still react like that? In fact, they don't even react at all since they don't even seem to read my messages. And I have never taught them, or even mention the doctrine of endless woe when writing to them.

As if that wasn't enough, I was abused and wounded so many times in my life that I always end up shutting Jesus out. Ever since I was a kid, I learned to build walls. I always end up shutting Him out. It became a reflexe. Sometimes, I'm not even aware of it. I remember when I walked in a state of pure, perfect, divine love for three days straight, I didn't shut Him out then. Three days. Such irony. But I always end up shutting Him out again. I just shut Him out or shut myself out of pain, which brings pretty much the same result. Either because I hurt too much or because I'm too scared to let Him in for fear of getting hurt again. Like I said, I'm not always aware of that. It became a reflexe. The Fundies only made things worse by telling me that I would be severely punished for shutting Him out like that. That pain or no pain, fear of pain or no fear of pain, I had no excuse. That produced even more fear, more guilt, more shame in me. They told me that it had nothing to do with pain or fear, that I was selfish, proud and bad. They just don't get it. As if that wasn't enough, I think there are sins and wounds burried so deep inside me that I can't remember them. I have no idea what they are. But I know that I'm constantly struggling to keep them from surfacing. Because somehow, I know that if they come to the surface, they will finish me off for good. I just feel that I'll never be able to deal with them. I know that it will just bring more traumas. I have no idea what those sins and wounds are, but I know that my inner being or whatever the hell you call it, is too terrified to let them surface. But because they are unresolved, because I ignore them and struggle to keep them burried deep inside me, they are rotting me from the inside out and they bring me nothing but agony. They are killing me. And the stink of it is starting to permeate my whole life. I always end up shutting Him out and the problem just become worse. I once heard a speech. A guy said: "Nothing in the end can shut Jesus out. Just as locked and bolted doors will never be able to keep Him out." Such speech made me want to run away. I just couldn't allow anyone to get close to me ever again. I always end up shutting myself up in little dark rooms, shutting Him out and He let me. If He really is gonna save everyone against their will if He has to, why doesn't He just demolish the locked and bolted door?

I was never good enough for anyone. Not mommy, not daddy, not anyone. And I'll never be good enough for Jesus. Why should it matter whether Jesus loves me or not? Not only I can't FEEL His love for me, I have nothing to offer Him. Let's face it. I just don't. I don't think any of us do. And that's the drama. He knew everything from the beginning, so there is just no way to agreeably surprise Him. It's like inviting Jesus to a freaking party and shout: "surprise!" when He knew all along that you would throw the freaking party. It's like a kid holding a beautifully wrapped gift behind her back when her father knew all along what the freaking gift would be. Such bitter disappointment. The drama of "can't agreeably surprise Daddy". The bigger drama is "we have nothing to offer Him". What do I have to offer Him? My weak, pathetic, human faith and love? Dead works? Some pathetic, useless human gift? Even keeping the commandments (law) brings death. But if we don't keep them, we sin or cannot avoid sin. Is that supposed to make sense? I have stopped keeping the commandments, keeping the law, weeks ago, and my situation didn't improve. I have nothing to offer Jesus. And I'm so sick of hearing people say: "It's not about what you have to offer, it's about what He has to offer." I am so sick and so tired of being too broke to buy a decent gift to my mother and sister and above all else, I'm sick and tired of having nothing to offer to Jesus. He died for me, on a cross and He bled and suffered like hell for me, He had that Bible sent to me and brought me to the truth of UR and I HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER HIM!!!! AND EVERYONE SAY THE SAME FREAKING THING!!!

"It's not about what you have to offer, it's about what He has to offer". Ever occurred to them that it's important to me, to give, to have something to give, to experience the pleasure and happiness of pleasing someone, making someone happy, to prove my love, to have something to offer? Apparently not. This might sound harsh and bitter to you, but it seems that all Fundies just sound the same. They sound like a broken record. Eternal torment, screams of agony, dancing flames, end of the world, the devil, it's all about what He has to offer. Yada yada yada. Broken record. They all sound the same. Even my poor, beloved brother, Thomas. Despite my bitterness and my own problems, my heart bleeds for him. He caused me a great deal of damage, but I still love him, a lot. I'll never understand why a friendship over the Internet turned that way for me, but it did. I've never even seen him, but I've been talking with him for six months. I know our friendship won't last. He rarely writes to me anymore. And when he does, it's to calumniate the Christian Universalists ("heretics") and to try to get me to go back to believing in eternal suffering. No thanks. He can hurt me as much as he wants, I'll never stop loving him. And it doesn't matter how much he hurts me now. I have nothing to offer to Jesus. He suffered horribly for me, His body suffered the shame of death for three days for me and I have nothing to offer Him. Everything I have comes from Him. It's like buying a man a gift with his own money. I have nothing of my own. My faith in Him and love for Him comes from Him. They are not even my own. My pathetic, weak, human faith and love are nothing. Everything I have comes from Him, belongs to Him and is useless to Him. He doesn't need food, or money, or clothes, or my pathetic, weak, human faith and love. He doesn't need anything. There is nothing I can offer Him or give Him. Everything human is foolishness to Him. In the Bible, Solomon built a temple for Him and He reacted with disdain and mockery when He saw the gift: "Heaven is my house and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? What is the place of my rest? Hath not my hand made all these things. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

To be continued...     

Suite...

Yada yada yada. Apparently, God didn't care about Solomon's feelings. Would it have killed Him to at least pretend to appreaciate the gift? And if that passage was from Paul alone, why couldn't He just shut up? Would it have killed them to spare Solomon's feelings and mine? Even if I was to offer myself, body, heart and soul as a living sacrifice, even if I was to offer myself, a hundred and ten per cent, even if I could oppen myself that much to Him, I'M NOT WORTHY!!!! I'M NOT WORTHY TO UNLOOSE HIS SHOE'S LATCHET!!!! I HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER HIM, NOTHING!!!! Everything is a stab in the heart for me. Everything just add to my pain and misery. I already am in hell. And don't tell me: "He already knows that you love Him. You have nothing to prove." That's not good enough. That's just not good enough. I'm useless to the poor, the sick, my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ, the unsaved ones, and I have nothing to offer Him. Everything is pain and misery. I already am in hell...

Please, minister to me, guys, because I get the feeling that it's the only thing that will bring me a little peace as I am in this hell. Don't ask. I don't know how I know this. Things don't make much sense to me right now...

Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 12:39:58 AM
There is nothing I can offer Him or give Him. ...What is the place of my rest?

He doesn't want us to do, as much as He wants us to 'be'...surrendered.  What we can give Him is ourselves - in surrender.  "What is the place of my rest"?  We are His temple.  God bless.

Nice :icon_king:

An 8.9 earthquake and a tsunami hit Japan. HAARP playing with their toys. HAARP/Blue Beam along with political leaders around the world are planning the destruction of Christianity and the NWO, to take over the whole world. Their goal? A one world governement, currency and religion. They are preparing a false second coming to destroy Christianity. To lead people into the claws of some antichrist. World leaders and are in secret societies. Secret societies are running the NASA, Hollywood and even the music industry. The Illuminati, the Freemasons, Skull & Bones, etc. HAARP/Blue Beam creates earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, even fire tornados all over the world. With billion watts of radio power (electromagnetic energy), they play with the ionosphere and they use that to control the weather and create man-made disasters (as oppose to natural disasters). That's part of their depopulation program. Wanna see some interesting facts about the quakes around the world?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pch4QtJFz24


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYTdHtaCP0k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ThI-zpvhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GUqywOtwkA

Also, you have to see this. He's an ex 33rd Freemason. I don't believe in that "good Illuminati truly enlighted by God" crap, but everything else he says is true and as I told you before, the Vatican truly is the harlot of Baylonia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0sBlcgAick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmXcZoDY2E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stMgtPH8S-A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-rwBPGeW20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZLnPg9bp7Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P3cMQ2xPUg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sl7N7goa8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_E09GKuHjE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyCvp2QJSiE

HAARP/Blue Beam is an infamous project of the NASA. Wanna see what HAARP/Blue Beam can do in term of holograms? They project those holograms from satellites that are in space:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb2EnW7quAE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hb_Vx36Sbk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxkngzG41ZE

That was then. See what they can do now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJjOEgbXlKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxwXf5H3HmM

Now, there is something you need to know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek7ZHenQnu4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnV_pNe_BB0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZtbYnslB0o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUtvOW6SR0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXS3o7Y0lK8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ENEH8d974&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek-Q0T9wK2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sw79fai6svw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n-nT-luFIw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-jzNfxKSio&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwq04_KhCeI

You need to see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiaGlizZU3k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eroIbHpfgOo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8XBxw7k8rk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtElk4aHBWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3MsDcsDZLc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_i4wMM_2AA&NR=1 Blue Beam...

Evil spirits being released in the Gulf of Mexico. The Illuminati and Freemasons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6l6vCtEQ2c&feature=fvwrel

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzRJPkUYJI&feature=related

Or possibly artificial life? They say it has spread to humans. Whatever the hell it is, it is bad, mark my words. "Watch this video and look at the hole in her hip, she had 27 on her legs and many, many people have the same thing... They are mis diagnosing it as MRSA but its directly related to the synthetic genomes BP has released in the Gulf..."

Whatever is going on, it's bad and it gets worse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rbGUmJFKQU&feature=fvwrel

And apparently they just HATE Haiti, for some reason:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM6zdfrxHEw&feature=related

And you really need to see those. Still think Obama is good guy?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CV8Xt2VWvc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuN6OibmY9M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHa21UCtNYg

Check this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2bIgfx4PXI

For more infos on the NWO, see my Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Cutie9326?feature=mhum (the playlist: N.W.O.R.M)...

Pray hard people. Pray very hard that the Holy Spirit will moved among the brainwashed and mind-controlled victims of the secret societies, so that they can get to know Jesus in this life and build a relationship with Him. Please, I ask that some of you pray for me 'cause I'm gonna step into the gap and intercede for them. Oppression and temptations can arise any time. God decides when an individual get saved, but I feel that I have to do this and it's not like I have anything to lose so I'm gonna try and so should you...

"I don't know why you say you have a disability, Michelle, you have a mind like a steel trap.  You seem to learn things instantly."

I've been diagnosed with an Asperger Disorder. It's a neurological problem and a disability. People with that disability have a hard time communicating certain things and socializing. And it doesn't help that they are being rejected for being supposedly "abnormal". Most were born like that. I also suffer from anxiety and depression. And I really don't learn things instantly. I'm far behind everyone else when it comes to relationship, worship and understanding some parts of the scriptures. And I have a defective memory so I always end up forgetting stuff and all this because there's something wrong with my stupid brain...

Quote from: Molly on March 10, 2011, 07:51:35 PM

Quote from: NathanThere really and truly is no worrying in the kingdom.  There is no concern for what tomorrow may or may not bring, for rumors and alarmists, conspirators and conspiracies . .there is no life in that arena.  Should we start to emphasize on those things, we'd be in a constant state of fear and depression at the same time.

Or you will know the truth and it will set you free...

If I wake up in a burning house, am I supposed to focus only on beautiful things while the house burns down, or am I supposed to wake everyone up and get them out of there in time?

Right you are, Molly. I've been studying all this for months, back when I was a Fundy, begging people to get saved from everlasting torment, endless wrath and all that crap. And I can tell you that the NWO and all that comes with it is very much real. Of course there is deception and some disinfo, but the more you study the stuff, the more you can tell the crap from the truth. Watch the videos in my last post and learn more. And if you want more infos, sister, try my Youtube channel. I call it the N.W.O.R.M. (The New World Order Resistance Movement).

Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 12:18:23 PM
"I don't know why you say you have a disability, Michelle, you have a mind like a steel trap.  You seem to learn things instantly."

I've been diagnosed with an Asperger Disorder. It's a neurological problem and a disability. People with that disability have a hard time communicating certain things and socializing. And it doesn't help that they are being rejected for being supposedly "abnormal". Most were born like that. I also suffer from anxiety and depression. And I really don't learn things instantly. I'm far behind everyone else when it comes to relationship, worship and understanding some parts of the scriptures. And I have a defective memory so I always end up forgetting stuff and all this because there's something wrong with my stupid brain...

Phooey on that.  If you are always forgetting things, it's because you know ten times more than other people.  If you have trouble relating to people, that's something you can work on or compensate for and work around.  Do you think things would have been easier for you 100 years ago when women were taken care of and expected to be quiet and sew and cook?  You can work out a lifestyle that is suitable for yourself instead of having to adapt your lifestyle to this fast paced world.

But think of this: everything you write on this medium can be read by thousands of people you will never meet.  You will impact people in ways you never know.  One hundred years ago only a very few people had that opportunity.  God can use you no matter what your circumstance.

Amen Molly!!   Michelle you seem to be doing better than I ever could at putting down your thoughts and typing them. I am really slow and can't remember a dog gone thing half the time.

CHB

Hi Michelle

I absolutely understand what you are going through.   The difficulty you will find is that while we can think the whole bible is true, the issue is where in the bible does it explain that everything you are reading must be literally true in context with a God who ordered all this?

The question I have for you is if the people who wrote the various texts that were one day discoverd and "then" compiled into what we now call the bible meant for those descriptions to be an accurate account of what God did to humans on the earth physically, or,  could it be possible that men used literal things happening around them to depict in the context of story telling in their generation and culture what God does in our hearts and mind spiritually?

For instance,  I personally do not believe God ordered the killing of any infant for some good and grand purpose that only he understands.   What I have found out to the best of my knowledge is that ancient cultures who went to war with another tribe would do their best to kill them all,  because they wanted to eliminate children from growing up and gaining the strength to take revenge out on their tribe later on.

Now, Christianity, has taught in various ways that God backed a certain tribe and would condone all of this because he was on their side.  In reality all we see is human nature wanting God to be on our side.   We can even see that on a smaller level where two professional football teams both pray to God to win.   Well, who wins then must of found the greatest favor with God huh?   Nonsense.


What we see is simply our modern human nature translated and taught in an incorrect light causing for the most part the exact problem you have now.  Most Christians have this same problem however their fear of daring to defy tradition completely gets in their way, but rather they step a foot outside the box here and there.


What I believe is that the OT is largely a metaphor.  For instance, if you understand the ancient barbaric ritual of killing a whole tribe due to the nature of the children growing up to seek revenge, then how can we transpose that to what God does?  Well it is fairly simple,  we can find out that sin can manifest itself in our lives through simple and seemingly innocent thoughts,

Adultery for instance can start with a man admiring a womans hair styke.  Simple and innocent to start with but then it can grow to admiring her smooth skin, and so on and so forth.

God would want us to kill those innocent thoughts in some manner in order to protect us from future harm.

So Michelle what I am asking you to try today is to throw out the bathwater and throw the corrupt baby of religious thought out with it, jump out of the box your trapped in and find a whole new world waiting for you.


Take care.

:talkangry::talkangry::hysteric: THA'S IT, THIS TIME I'M REALLY FREAKING MAD!!!! I'VE HAD IT WITH ALL THE FREAKING STUPIDITIES OF THE FUNDIES!!!! I'VE HAD IT WITH THEIR FREAKING PRIDE, ARROGANCE AND SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS!!!! PLEASE, LORD KILL ME BECAUSE I'D RATHER DIE THAN STAND THOSE PEOPLE ANY LONGER!!!! ABOUT TO HAVE A STROKE HERE 'CAUSE THEY'RE ALL KILLING ME!!!! THEY ARE REALLY FREAKING KILLING ME!!!!

"God is never angry. A superior being does NOT have human emotions.

Yeah? Says who? Some pharisaical, self-righteous and hypocritical Fundy? LOL *Sarcastic* Yeah, right. I will believe him rather than the Bible. That guy seems to forget that God has been human for 33 years. The Bible tells us that the Lord feels anger, jealousy, love and emotional pain, even before He was human. When He was a human man, He wept and He was not ashamed of His emotions. He never hid them. Jesus didn't believe that stupid crap about "Real men don't cry". He never hid His emotions, He showed them. All that crap about "Real men don't cry" is nothing but BS. Too many men don't accept their emotions and interiorize them nowaday. That leads to committing even more sins. Men who interiorize their anger and sorrow end up hurting, even killing members of their families and other people. Being human and crying is not a crime, it's normal and natural. But some stupid people still insist that boys and men are not to cry. Well, if I was interested in marriage, I'd rather marry a sensitive man who is not ashamed of his emotions than marrying a macho who think he has to wear a mask and pretend that everything is always sunshine and daisies. A man who cannot admit that he is angry, afraid, sad or nervous is not a man I would want to be married to. A guy who burry everything deep inside is a guy who always end up exploding and being stuck in marriage with someone like that would be a total nightmare, especially when you have a hard time controlling your own emotions. A guy who accept and admit his emotions is more compassionate, kind and patient and is more of a real man in my eyes than the guy who wears a mask and lie about how he feels. Most Fundies are emotionally dead. They use the same tone of voice when they talk about God roasting people for all eternity than they use when talking about God's love for His children. And they sound like a broken record. All they ever talk about is dancing flames and screams of agony and they keep spreading the gross lie that Jesus talked more about hell than heaven.

"God will not destroy the world with water again. (But He did not promised He wouldn't use fire)."

"The rainbow is a promise that God will not destroy the world again with water, and a reminder that He will destroy the world with fire."

Says who? The Bible? Certainly not! They should read some of the TM articles. There is no scripture saying that this world will be destroyed. Only that the former earth and heaven will "pass away", as in they will be purified and transformed over a period of time. They will not be destroyed, they will be changed, just like the humans. And if they used their brains, they would realize that with both the former earth and heavens gone, there would be nowhere left for anyone to be. Some say the earth will be destroyed first and people taken to heaven. But nowhere in the scriptures does it say that anyone will ever enter heaven until after the thousand years of reign. Just like people, the former earth and heaven will be changed, not destroyed. That's what it means "pass away". Once the former earth and heavens are changed to the new ones, the former will have passed away, the former ones will cease to exist because they will be changed. Because God used literal water to "destroy" the world, they think He will use literal fire. But God didn't destroy the whole world. And contrary to popular belief, it wasn't only Noah and his family who survived the flood. The flood didn't cover the whole world either. There are many proofs of that and all one has to do is read the articles on the subject. Even a Nephilim survived the flood. The giant Goliath. Yes, a literal giant. Otherwise, he would not have been feared by so many men. So he wasn't a giant in the sense of a very tall, corpulent man. Those Fundies have been misinterpreting that Bible passage about John speaking of a baptism with water and a baptism with fire. That passage simply means that those who are not born again will will face more suffering than those who aren't. From what I've gathered about the living water, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of fire might imply suffering and possibly even the death of the carnal mind. The problem with this passage is John is talking about two baptisms and in some other passage it says that there is only one baptism. But whatever John was talking about, it wasn't heaven and earth or he would've been very clear about it. Also, John never said that the fire was literal...

"God will not destroy the world again, man will. The scriptures say so. And it will be destroyed by fire, so the world will be destroyed by man and a nuke war."

Have you ever heard such stupidities in your entire life? Man has the power to destroy the whole world now! And the entire universe (that means more than just the earth) will be destroyed by a nuke war! Wow, just wow. There is nothing about that in the Bible whatsoever. Fortunately, thank Lord Jesus for that, I still exercise control over myself or I would vent out on those Fundies and give them a piece of my mind about the stupidities that come out of their mouths...

"After the rapture occurs on May 21 2011 all everyine left behind has to look forward to is death, torment and destruction."

Says who? Jesus? Paul? The apostles? The Jewish rabbies? The first fathers? No, no, no, no and no. The rapture is a gross lie and a false doctrine. It is unbiblical. The passage of scriptures that they use is clearly taken out of context, is not to be taken literally and the Bible never implies that some people will escape all suffering while others will be left behind to suffer horribly. Only self-righteous and proud people could come up with such a (false) doctrine. Like "we are good enough to escape all suffering and calamities, but the rest of the world is just not good enough". The church (meaning the "elect") will make a quick escape as the rest of the world endure horrible suffering and destruction. Now does that make sense to you? That's all Fundies ever do now. Looking down on other people and putting other people under their feet. "I am good enough, but you aren't." Says who? Who said that? Certainly not Christ. The Bible clearly says that all have sinned, all have come short of the glory of God and even the best saint can't go through his entire life without committing one sin. There is not a single individual in all the world who is better than another. No one is in a position to judge anyone. The Bible says that no one is righteous, not one. There is none that seeks God. Those who are saved and born again have the righteousness of Christ, not their own! And if those who are saved and born again seek God, that's because God put that desire in their hearts. Not because they decided or chose to seek Him. Fundies spread their stinking, pharisaical teachings and false gospel all over the world. It's contagious like a disease and infect more people everyday. They give themselves the right to judge others, to decide who should be spared or punished, who should live or die. That's pharisaical hypocrisy and self-righteousness. They think and act like they're God. Who the hell do they think they are? Who gave them the freaking right to do that? Now ask me people why I'm so freaking mad. I could just verbally attack those people, give them a piece of my mind, tell them exactly what I think about their stupid behavior, but I don't. But not because I decided or chose not to. Me, I am way too weak to control my human passions. It is by the grace of Christ alone that I exercise control over myself. Another thing that the Fundies don't do. They deny it all the time, but they rarely give all the glory and credit to God. They are so proud of their own works. They are so proud and self-righteous that they have become blind to their spiritual blindness. If Fundies don't give their fire and brimstone daily speech, they are not pleased and happy. They sound like a broken record of "dancing flames, screams of agony and the devil cackling with glee as he torture his victims forever". Can't they just sing another freaking tune? And did I mention that it's nearly impossible to discuss anything else than religion with them? It's their recurring obssession. That false doctrine of endless suffering and everlasting wrath is an abomination and utterly disgusting. Those who preach it the most look more like Pharisees and the devil than true Christians. And look at this. As if that wasn't enough, they dare to demolish our views and doctrines, the true gospel:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/hello.html

I only read a few paragraphs and I'm not interested in reading the rest of it. You want to read all of it, suit yourself. Me, with the grace of Christ, am restraining myself from telling those individuals exactly what I think about them...

To be continued...

Suite...

"There will be no thousand year reign of Christ on this earth. May 21 2011 is the day of the rapture and october 21 2011 is the the destruction of this universe and none of it and no one that has been destroyed with it will ever enter into the mind of those who reign with Christ ever again."

Have you ever heard such stupidities in your entire life? There is no scripture saying that the thousand year reign is in heaven, much less the former heaven still infected with the evil of the fallen angels. The thousand year reign will not be on this earth? Then how come the Bible says that the former heavens and earth will only be passed away AFTER the thousand year reign, that there will be no more pain, no more sorrow, no more crying only AFTER the thousand year reign that is in the new heavens and earth? That's the chronological order of events describe in the book of Revelation. That means that the thousand year reign will be on this earth and that death, sorrow, crying, sin, evil and death will continue to exist as people reign with Christ on this earth and that those things will only be completely eliminated AFTER the thousand year reign. The forrmer heavens and earth will be changed to the new ones as those things are completely eliminated for good AFTER the thousand year reign. That person who claim that he or she has studied the Book of Revelation clearly didn't or he/she wouldn't ignore the chronological order of events in that book. What would be the use of reigning with Christ if it wasn't to apply justice? The Bible says that the saints will judgethe world and even angels. But since evil and sin will still exist at that time, the saints better go to Jesus for advices and wisdom or there will be injustice and punishment. There are also a lot of things to consider. Those who will not be part of the first resurrection will not reign with Christ, that means only saints will reign with Christ. That also means that not all saints will reign because if all saints reign then who would they reign over? Not all the Ecclesia will reign with Christ, no matter what people say. If only saints reign and only saints are part of the first resurrection and in order to reign, saints must have people to reign over then not all saints will reign with Christ. No need to be a brain surgeon to realize that. The Bible also say that no one knows the day or the hour, but some miguided Fundies say that near the "end", the righteous will understand the book of Daniel and find the dates in it, but the wicked will not understand. Says who? They all have different dates and they can't prove anything. The Bible says that no one knows the day or the hour and He will come back like a thief. People who claim they a date are spreading false teachings. As I said before, many Christian Universalists have written articles about this and there is no scriptures that say that this world will come to an end or be destroyed. The Bible says that we will be changed and the former heavens and earth will pass away, so they too will be changed, not destroyed. The rapture is a false, unbiblical doctrine and many articles out there can prove it. There is no endless torment or destruction of the soul. And no one will ever be erased from the memory of anyon. I also seriously doubt that the good and positive things of the former earth will be erased from the memory of anyone. The Bible says that there will be no more tears and no more pain. That means only the bad and negative things will be erased from the memories of people, not the good and positive things and not other people. To say that some people will be utterly destroyed and that no one that has been destroyed will ever enter the mind of those who reign with Christ ever again is not only utterly disgusting, it is totally evil and you can see that those Fundies are totally heartless. "It's okay if God destroy people or torture them forever, He will erase them from my memory and I won't have to think about them anymore." The person who said that is a monster. There is no word to destribe how much of a monster that person is. May the Lord melt the heart of that person and change him or her from the inside out. Even among the vilest of people, few think such things. It's also a gross lie. They make God out to be a liar and a deceiver.

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html

As Chris Moyer said in his testimony:

"It is said that there will be no more crying in heaven, and that God will wipe all of the tears from our eyes. If hell truly exists, then the knowledge of it must be entirely wiped out from the minds of the chosen elect. For anyone who had a heart would cry bitterly to know that while they lie in their comfort, the majority of humanity is undergoing unendurable suffering and pain. The only way God could make people forget about hell would be to stage the largest cover-up in the history of the universe. He would have to erase from the minds of countless "saved" individuals all those who perished, whether they be mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, and all of the extended relatives, as well as friends and acquaintances. No one could have a trace memory of any who perished, less they wonder about their absence from heaven, and ask God about it. If by chance, someone remembered a loved one who was not a believer, God must certainly then make up some delightful story about the whereabouts of that individual so as to not allow one "tear" in heaven. If it is true that a hell exist, yet God wipes the thought of hell from the minds of the saved, as well as the memory of all individuals who are perishing there, then God is a liar. He purposefully deceives the inhabitants of heaven into thinking that He has only created "saved individuals, in order that He might sustain the perfect peace of heaven. For if the inhabitants of heaven knew that He was allowing countless millions to be tortured, and He had power over it, then A REBELLION could very well arise, and then God would have to send everyone to hell. But then He would have no one to praise Him, for they would all be cursing His name in hell. God would not like that. If knowledge of hell were maintained in heaven, it seems it would be a thorn in people's collective consciences. It is not possible for a compassionate person to thoroughly enjoy eating a full meal while a man sitting next to him on the ground is starving to death, and his ribs show through his skin. Only the most heartless of men could finish off every last crumb without a single tinge of guilt. Who could ever, in full knowledge, immensely enjoy their comfort while millions are suffering in unspeakable agony?"

And if it's true about eternal torment, it's also true about destruction, annihilation. If God did either of those things and then erased the memories of people, He would be a liar and a deceiver. And God is no such thing. That is a misinterpretation of the passage in which God says to Isaiah: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind. For as the new heavens, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain" (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22).

A guy said this on Yahoo and I agree with him:

"The Bible views of the new heavens and new earth is not as literal as it may initially seen. John describes what is revealed to him in Revelation 21:1. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Hundred of years before John's day, God saith to Isaiah: "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind. For as the new heavens, which I will make, shall remain before me..." (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22). This prophecy was initially fulfilled when faithful Jews returned to Jerusalem in 537 B.C.E after their 70-year exile in Babylon. In that restoration, they formed a cleansed society, a "new earth" under a new governmental system, "new heavens". The apostle Peter, however, pointed to a further application of the prophecy, saying: "Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13). John now shows that this promise, is fulfilled during the Lord's day. "The former heaven and the former earth", Satan's organized system of things with its governmental structure influenced by Satan and his demons, will pass away. The turbulent "sea" of wicked, rebellious mankind will cease to exist. In its place will be "a new earth" - a new earthly society under a new government, God's Kingdom. -"

There is a lot to consider here. First of all, when God says that the former earth and everything that happened in that former earth shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, He means the bad thing and the bad memory. I seriously doubt that the good things and good memories will be erased from the memories of people. God never said anything about that. Secondly, I think that guy is right when he talks about a metaphorical sea. God would never destroy or take away something as beautiful and wonderful as the seas. God loves that beautiful and wonderful creation of His (seas) and He would never keep His children from the beauties and pleasures of the seas. Way too many of His children never had the chance to enjoy them. And since water has such an important signification in Christianity and Jesus talked the Lord talked about it often, it is obvious that in that specific passage, He is referring to a metaphorical sea. As that guy said, probably the sea of wicked, rebellious mankind who will be change to truly righteous people. Some people claim that God will destroy or take away the seas because it makes a third of the world inhabitable and there will be billions of people on earth during the thousand yearyear reign, way more people than there has ever been. But nothing is impossible to God. He can make the earth habitable for billions of people without destroying the seas, one of His most beautiful and wonderful creations that is He loves just as much as we do. Thirdly, Peter clearly says that righteousness will dwell in the new earth and new heaven and since sin and evil and mortality will still exist during the thousand year reign, then the thousand year reign will most certainly be on earth. Without doubt. Yes, the devil and his demons will be imprisoned during that thousand years, but sin and evil and mortality will still exist in man and will not cease to exist until after the thousand year reign when it will be eliminated as the former earth and former heaven undergo the last changes, as the change is completed. Thirdly, God used the present, not the past. He says, "I CREATE new heavens and a new earth", then He uses the future and He goes on saying, "for the new heavens which I WILL make..." That means, He is, right now as we speak, working the changes and He WILL complete His work, just like He always complete all works that He starts. Get out into the world and you cannot help but notice that the world is already undergoing some changes. Those changes are apparent but extremely slow, otherwise they would kill people and cause major traumas. Yes, slowly but surely, the world is changing. Some people who are sensitive to the supernatural and spiritual, like myself, can even sense it and feel it. But please, for the Love of God, don't believe all that crap about pole shifting and some planet Nibiru (or planet X) or meteor crashing into earth. There is absolutely no proof of that. Some people talk about "the star call Wormwood" and take that passage too literally, thinking that the star will literally crash into the rivers. Secondly, why did they came up with that Planet X/Nibiru crap, since a star and a planet are two completely different things? There is no planet Nibiru in the scriptures. Some people claim that the USA leaders are trying to cover it with chemtrails to hide its existance, when in fact they are preparing the sky for the fake second coming show. :rolleye: Planet Nibiru, yeah right. If you ask me, some people are watching way too much Hollywood filth and since the Illuminati and Freemasons took over Hollywood, no wonder there is so much filth on TV and in the movies and they have totally corrupt the music industry as well. Most secular songs now only talk about sex and rebellion and have filthy language in them. Ever wondered why so many teenagers become aggressive and rebellious when they listen to Rock & Roll and Rap music? Ever wondered why people fight, do drugs and have a sexually vulgar behavior when they listen to those types of music. Because the Illuminati and Freemasons put evil spells and demons in the recordings. I will post some testimonies and infos in my next post...

Michelle, can I have a simple explanation of what you are trying to say?

Fundies, New World Order conspiracies - who are you trying to fight?  The whole system of Babylon by yourself?  I think that might be the pressure you're under, trying to fight something that literally is God's place to defeat.

Quote from: Lefein on March 13, 2011, 08:02:26 PM
literally is God's place to defeat.

:thumbsup:   Who is my neighbor?  Luke 10:25-37

Peace.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 10, 2011, 06:59:27 PM



Are not two little sparrows sold for a penny?
And yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's consent and notice.

Satanism in movies:

http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/hollywoodsatancult.html

http://www.whale.to/b/sc.html

http://asis.com/users/stag/starchiv/transcriptions/IllMovies.html

They even target children:

http://www.illuminati-news.com/walt-disney-agenda.htm

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread557408/pg1

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/oz.htm

http://www.refugeofrighteousness.com/articles/61/1/HARRY-POTTER-IS-TEACHING-YOUR-CHILDREN-SATANISM-AND-WITCHCRAFT/Page1.html

She knows what she's talking about. I've been into wicca in my teenager years (16 to 19 years old):

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract7.html

Satanism, spells and demons in music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otti-82jEAc

He didn't say a "temple in every STUDIO. He said a temple in every record company's office, behind locked doors. Also, there is a lot more to his story than just being involved in witchcraft. He was part of the Council of 13, the level right below the ruling Rothschilds, before He got saved. He was tossed in prison, drugged and killed...   

http://www.av1611.org/othpubls/roots.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJi2HaJf1VI

"Bob Marley, Tupac and Michael Jackson were killed. If you know about Tupac's story you would know that he was framed for rape as a threat. Tupac did not like being controlled. Michael Jackson has sang songs which contain satanic lyrics. He didn't like what he was doing, so he refused to sing anymore. He was then purposely infected with vitiligo and lupus (skin disease) as a threat. He still refused to sing satanic songs and was framed for molesting children..."

On March 5th 2009, he started talking about "the worst kept secret in the world", then he was killed. Michael Jackson died of a suspected heart attack. The Illuminati are behind Blue Beam and they kill some people with induced fake heart attacks and they used electromagnetic frequency to do it. Like they did to a few others, including Serge Monast, a Canadian journalist who exposed Project Blue Beam and one of his collegues. Do research. Do you know why they use the words "Rain Man" a lot? Because Rain Man is the name of an evil spirit. If you your hear it, plead the blood of Jesus Christ over yourself and get the heck out of the place...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DikoLMfnEgE

"There has been a lot of discussion about what goes on behind the scenes in the music industry and why many celebrities end up with mental health/drug problems or simply dead..."

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/278863_mainstream-rock-rap-rb-metal-and-techno-exposed


http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~jimthing/devilis.htm

"In Dancing With Demons, Godwin shows Satan's involvement in "Christian" Rock, Rap, "safe" secular pop, and Contemporary Christian music. The valuable information in this book reveals the true master of some of the biggest names in both rock and "Christian" music. The valuable information in this book reveals the true master of some of the biggest names in both rock and "Christian" music. What takes place inside Stryper and Petra concerts. "Christian" Rockers' 11 best excuses: each is shot down. How Rock music ushered in the New Age ... and is still promoting it. How to tell genuine Christian music from Satan's imitations. Where Rap music came from and what it's real purpose is."

"From Rock to Rock comprehensively covers the music industry taking the reader from Rock 'n' Roll to the Rock of Ages. Over 1500 past and present Rock Groups and Artists classified in The Rock Music Rating System. Detailed exposé on many current entertainers, rock concerts, videos & lyrics Occult symbols of rock music explained. Accompanied by his wife Melanie, Eric has given the acclaimed "Where Do You Stand?" seminar to many thousands detailing the facts about Rock & Christian Music, The Occult & New Age religions, The Entertainment World and other issues facing us today. He has appeared on numerous television and radio talk shows."

http://www.campuschristians.info/articles/musicgodlikes.html

Still be careful guys, and keep yourself informed. For example, not all "harp music" is okay and good. Enya is a pagan. She sings about pagan mythology and gods and is all about that celtic stuff. I have seen what some books, movies or musics can do to me. Before watching, reading or listening to anything inform yourselves and pray. Ask God for HIS wisdom and HIS discernment...

Jay-Z has blasphemously given himself the nickname "Jayhova". Obama is pro-gay and pro-abortion, guys. He mocks the Bible, celebrates homosexuality and aproves the murder of foetuses. I'm not judging or condemning anyone here, but when are you people going to wake up???? Nearly all the articles and videos I've seen on that stuff was made by Fundies. In fact, I haven't seen a single article or video about that stuff made by Christian Universalists. How come it's only the "eternal torment-false gospel spreaders" informing people about this or even seriously discussing it? I know we have to focus on Christ and the good stuff, and have a healthy thought life, but that doesn't mean we can stuff our heads in the sand and ignore the deceptions, the danger and the blasphemies that sully the name of our blessed Saviour. When you minister to people and preach the Victorious gospel of Jesus Christ, warn them. It's also our responsibility. We have to be examples. How do you think people are going to feel when they find out that only hellfire-eternal torment preaching Christians are warning them about that stuff? We will lose their trust and they won't take the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ seriously. Unless they have been born again or received receive a strong revelation. But some people are not there yet. Just think about it. Separate yourselves from the world more and more and repent of your unwavering support for Obama and all unchristian leaders. All books, movies, musics that promote sin (i.e. sexual immorality, covetousness, idolatry, blasphemy, profanity, murder..) is of the devil...

It's like I said, guys. I've been studying the stuff for months. Keep yourselves informed and if you wanna know anything just ask. I'm always glad to help...

God is bigger than all of that.  Quite literally.

Every single wicked thing that has ever happened on this earth by every single person that has ever been born here - hasn't gotten much further than our atmosphere.

God is about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ^x1000 multiverses wide, long, and tall, and bigger (being infinite)

Stop worrying so much.  You're fretting like he isn't in control.

And as for conspiracy...its conspiracy...>_>  People act like Satan is nigh omnipresent with the way they want to find him in literally everything (except in themselves...ironically)

A great deal of all of this kind of conspiracy theory "Satan is in your drinking water!!!" nonsense - is nothing more than Satan worship in itself.  And that's the greater danger, getting us away from focusing on Christ and God's great power, and already victorious wonder - and having us to focus on walling ourselves in or having us fight an exhausting battle to the death, killing ourselves, in an ever strained effort of trying to find Satan in everything, and trying to fight that Satan that is supposedly in everything.  Just because "They" tell us that Satan is in this, or that, or otherwise.

What does the Bible say about music choices?

Bible verses about music choices:

(Some of those verses are from the O.T and we're not under the law anymore, but those verses have something to teach us...)

Philippians 4:8 ESV Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

Ephesians 5:19 ESV Addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,

Colossians 3:16 ESV Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Romans 12:2 ESV Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Psalm 150:4 ESV Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!

James 4:17 ESV So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

1 Timothy 6:3-5 ESV If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

1 Corinthians 8:1-13 ESV Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one." For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"— ...

Romans 14:3 ESV / Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.

Psalm 150:1-6 ESV Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! ...

James 1:22 ESV But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

Hebrews 5:1-14 ESV For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. Because of this he is obligated to offer sacrifice for his own sins just as he does for those of the people. And no one takes this honor for himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"; ...

1 Thessalonians 5:22 ESV Abstain from every form of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 ESV But test everything; hold fast what is good.

Colossians 3:17 ESV And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Ephesians 5:18 ESV And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

1 Corinthians 14:26 ESV What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

1 Corinthians 12:1-31 ESV Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; ...

1 Corinthians 10:31 ESV So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Romans 14:21 ESV It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

John 5:39 ESV You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

John 1:1 ESV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Luke 24:27 ESV And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 6:46 ESV "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?

Matthew 28:19-20 ESV Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Jeremiah 31:33 ESV But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Psalm 69:30 ESV I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify him with thanksgiving.

Psalm 30:4 ESV Sing praises to the Lord, O you his saints, and give thanks to his holy name.

Psalm 21:13 ESV Be exalted, O Lord, in your strength! We will sing and praise your power.

Numbers 3:1-51 ESV These are the generations of Aaron and Moses at the time when the Lord spoke with Moses on Mount Sinai. These are the names of the sons of Aaron: Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the anointed priests, whom he ordained to serve as priests. But Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord when they offered unauthorized fire before the Lord in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children. So Eleazar and Ithamar served as priests in the lifetime of Aaron their father. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ...

http://www.openbible.info/topics/music_choices

I'm starving. See you guys, later...

I love you all, beloved brothers and sisters...:HeartThrob: :cloud9:

Quote from: Lefein on March 13, 2011, 09:36:03 PM
God is bigger than all of that.  Quite literally.

Every single wicked thing that has ever happened on this earth by every single person that has ever been born here - hasn't gotten much further than our atmosphere.

God is about 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ^x1000 multiverses wide, long, and tall, and bigger (being infinite)

Stop worrying so much.  You're fretting like he isn't in control.

And as for conspiracy...its conspiracy...>_>  People act like Satan is nigh omnipresent with the way they want to find him in literally everything (except in themselves...ironically)

A great deal of all of this kind of conspiracy theory "Satan is in your drinking water!!!" nonsense - is nothing more than Satan worship in itself.  And that's the greater danger, getting us away from focusing on Christ and God's great power, and already victorious wonder - and having us to focus on walling ourselves in or having us fight an exhausting battle to the death, killing ourselves, in an ever strained effort of trying to find Satan in everything, and trying to fight that Satan that is supposedly in everything.  Just because "They" tell us that Satan is in this, or that, or otherwise.

Focussing on God and positive, healthy stuff is good. It doesn't mean we can stuff our heads in the sand and it doesn't give us the right to ignore our responsibilities as Christians. We ought to warn those we preached the gospel to. People can't just read, watch or listen to anything they want. Deception is everywhere and only the Word of God can be trusted when it comes to these things. But if you don't care, it's not like I can force you to. All I can do is pray for you and think about what Jesus is going to say when Jesus ask you why you didn't take your responsibility as Christian. Some other people like Molly care about the truth so they will seriously search these things for themselves. We are Christ's disciples and one of our responsibilities is to warn people against danger and deception and refer people to the Word of God. I've been studying that stuff for months and it's very much real. And I can assure you that the threat is very real and very serious. He is in control, but we have a responsibility to warn those we preach or minister to against danger and deception. You know I am right. Paul says that good Christians admonish each other? Well, I feel like I have to admonish some people. Not judging or condemning. Just reminding the important of our responsibilities as Christians. And when are you gonna tell the people when they ask you why only the hell-fire-eternal torment-false gospel Christians warn them against that kind of danger and deception? You want to admonish me about something? Feel free to do so. Learning? I'm asking for just that. If I can't take it, I don't give it.

With love,

Your sister in Christ.

I enjoy reading your posts, you remind me of shadow, a member who left and then came back, maybe you guys should speak to each other, perhaps.


I am so sick and so tired of being too broke to buy a decent gift to my mother and sister and above all else, I'm sick and tired of having nothing to offer to Jesus. He died for me, on a cross and He bled and suffered like hell for me, He had that Bible sent to me and brought me to the truth of UR and I HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER HIM!!!!
Michelle

Can you make a cup of tea for your mother?




# Matthew 10:42
And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward."
Matthew 10:41-42 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)

# Mark 9:41
Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward

Quote from: Michelle on March 13, 2011, 09:26:52 PM
I'm not judging or condemning anyone here, but when are you people going to wake up???? 

Well of course you are, but that is ok.   Judgment is not inherantly a bad thing, the bible simply says that you will be judged by the same measure.

One of the things a person goes through when being called out of the institutions of religion is that you want to retain all the convenient teachings that cater to your own beliefs of the things you do good.

Oh you are not a homosexual, so certainly religion got that one right, etc etc etc.....

So you want to retain the callous fundamentalism that you find ok and then hollar and complain that universalists aren't railing on about all the other stuff, satanism, end time, ect ect ect.

Eventually you realize that what a lot of people really want to do is do what has caused all the other denominations to form, they simply want a religion that agrees with them and eveything they want to do and are against.

They want to trade one institution for another.  that is why so many universalists want Rob Bell to take the heat for them, Go Rob,  make christianity into our religion.  Quite sickening actually.  The belief of God saving all mankind hasn't taught a lot of people much of anything.

Very correct Paul.

:sigh: My Fundy friend is gonna be real mad at me. But I had to say something. I had to... :sigh: I sent him a message:

" http://www.chacha.com/topic/egyptian-protests/news/are-egyptian-muslims-and-christians-protecting-each-other

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre71h6ka-us-egypt-christians/

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01/12/muslim-human-shields-to-protect-egyptian-christians/

People from different belief systems not trying to kill each other for once makes you disgusted?? I bet you're gonna give me a fire and brimstone speech. Yeah, I'm sure Jesus is gonna punish and torture people for saving lives and praying for their fellow human beings. That whole "endless" punishment thing is bullcrap. God is love and JUSTICE, not injustice. A punishment is not endless and people will be punished according to their deeds, not endlessly and not the same period of time for all faults. And saving lives, praying and loving your neighbor as yourself is not sin. Jesus will cure all of His children from sin, unbelief and false teachings with His purging, refining, infinite love. Some people really need to give up the hate, unforgiveness, pride and self-righteousness. No human being get to decide who should live and who should die, who should be punished and who should be spared. Those who do that act like they're God and blaspheme Him. The Pharissees did just that and Jesus called them hypocrites. No one on this planet is better than anyone else. Especially not those who think they are better than others. The Pharisees don't repent, they say: "Thank God, I'm not like him".

"This is not about us and them.  We are one. This was an attack on Egypt as a whole, and I am standing with the Copts because the only way things will change in this country is if we come together."

This feeling of brotherhood ("One people, one blood") among Egyptians regardless of religion is prominent throughout the country.  It is seen in the pledge of Muslims who will collectively fight the threat of Islamic militants towards an Egypt free from sectarian strife.  It is seen as banners went up depicting mosques and churches, crosses and crescents, together in unity as one."

Didn't God say something about 'Thou Shall not judge'? And 'You shall be judged with the same measure with which you judged'? How about "He who hates his brother and says he loves God is a liar"? Jow about "He who dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him"? Ouch... does it hurt being a hypocrite? Jesus came to die for us while we were still sinners and unbelievers and people are killing each others off!!! And when Christians and Muslims or Christians and Jews finally fight side by side, protect each others and pray for each others, some people come along and say: "This is wrong. They will be "endlessly" punished"??? Yeah, I'm sure Jesus wants the war, violence, bloodsheds and hatred to continue, especially considering the fact that He came to die for us while we were still sinner and unbelievers and fully paid the price with the works of the cross, His absolute and supreme divine saving power and His shed blood. To say that Christianity does not have murderous intent forgets its history and its own theology. With that kind of mentality, you get the Crusades, you get genocide, you get the so-called Salem Witch Trial where innocent women were burned to the stake after being tortured for hours for something they didn't do! And even if they had done it, nothing justifies torture and murder! Do I go around torturing and killing Muslims? I was guilty of practicing false religion in the past and now I'm saved. The Lord saved me. Salvation is 100% of the Lord. I had nothing to do with it. It wasn't choice or my so-called free will that saved me. I was depraved and blind and the disease of sin was far advanced in me. God hears me and know I can testify to that. Once again the people of America are showing that true Christianity is rare indeed in our countries, as a true Christian would feel equally indignant for all peoples being persecuted in Iraq. Then again, a true Christian would never have gone along with this invasion in the first place. Christians who despised and hate Muslims, Jews, pagans or whatever are not true Christians. Jesus said to love one another and to love our neighbor as ourselves, but most people won't put that through their thick skulls. But no. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will be "endlessly" punished or you will have prayed for that person and loved that person all for nothing because that person will be "endlessly" punished for finite wrongs. Wow, just wow. Yeah, our Heavenly Father would commit such injustice and horror when imperfect human parents would never get along with it. Yeah, because imperfect humans are so better than a God of love who can and will save all. But according to Fundamentalists, He doesn't want to (not loving enough), or worse, He can't (too weak). Pharisaical pride and self-righteousness is the Fundamentalist's biggest problem. "We're good enough, but the rest of the world isn't". Some people just don't get it. It's not about who's good enough, it's about the Father's love and infinite saving power. Paul was totally transformed on the spot and his salvation had nothing to do with choice or free will. He was on his way to murder a bunch of Christians when he was changed on the spot in an instant. Humans are too weak and corrupt to do a single right thing without the grace of God. Yeah, because people save themselves and make that "choice" while they are still depraved and selfish carnal men. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The problem with Fundamentalists is they think that salvation is of man and free will. And they have many false doctrine. Like the unbiblical sinner's prayer. And people have to give up their sins to be saved (repentance) and surrender their lives to Christ. And not all KJV-onlyist Fundamentalists fall for that false doctrine. That's from one of your favorite websites:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Lordship%20Salvation/bad_tracts.htm

Repentance is only a change of mind...

"You see, many people think that they have to give up their sins, reform themselves, make a commitment, turn over a new leaf, clean themselves up, etc. or God won't save them. This is a lie of the devil. Salvation is a free gift (Romans 3:24, 6:23, Ephesians 2:8-9). We don't give up our sins TO get saved, we give up our sins BECAUSE we are saved. You don't give God your life in order to be saved; but you give God your life BECAUSE you ARE saved. The unbiblical teaching of Jack Chick and others that a sinner must be willing to surrender their life to Christ for salvation is a lie of the Devil. Salvation is receiving, not giving."

Another KJV-onlyist Fundamentalist:

http://www.scionofzion.com/decisionism.htm

Another KJV-onlyist Fundamentalist:

http://www.soulwinning.info/wolves/false_brethren.htm

"This is no different than the false teaching today that a sinner must forsake their sinful lifestyle and surrender their life to Christ to be saved, aka, Lordship Salvation. The Apostle Paul addresses the issue by warning the Christians at Galatia about "false brethren" who ADD works to faith alone in Christ. These same "false brethren" abound in our churches today. One of the main reasons we are witnessing the degradation of Biblical theology in these Last Days in because of a slew of corrupt versions of the Bible being sold on the markets nowadays. The New International Version and the English Standard Version of the Bible horribly pervert the Scriptures concerning salvation . . ."

If you use only the 1611 KJV, how come you fell for that false doctrine??? No english translation is perfect and without error. But I still prefer that Bible...

"Satan is subtle, whose purpose is to corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel and lead men into Hell. One must never stray away from the Biblical teaching that eternal life is a free gift (Romans 5:15;6:23), based solely upon the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19), and that a man's faith is COUNTED for righteousness (Romans 4:5). We need NO self-righteousness of our own, and 'tis a good thing because we have none to offer God (Isaiah 64:6). We are saved by Christ's righteousness (2nd Corinthians 5:21), which is imputed to us at salvation (Romans 4:6). Amen! Anyone who teaches that a sinner MUST make a commitment to live for Christ to be saved, or surrender their will completely to God to be saved, or cease from their sinful lifestyle to be saved, is teaching an utterly false gospel."

Change comes AFTER salvation...

And that all comes, not from Christian Universalists, but from KJV-onlyist Christian Fundamentalists, the eternal damnation believing type, just like yourself. You are guilty of teaching a false gospel. Isn't that what you accused me of? Mmm. According to some KJV-onlyist Fundamentalists like you, that false gospel you're teaching is damnable heresy. Isn't that what you accused me of? And according to your your "ENDLESS" punishment false doctrine, unless you repent, you will not be punished according to your deeds, but ETERNALLY punished for your finite wrongdoings by love Himself who has unlimited saving power. I got you there, didn't I? But I'm not done yet. Now, let's see if the sinner's prayer is a biblical doctrine...

Another Christian Fundamentalist... who seems to enjoy Jonathan Edward's eternal damnation speech:

http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm

"If you prayed the "sinners prayer" for your salvation, you are still lost in your sins, because it is not what God said to do."

Salvation is 100% of the Lord...

Another KJV-onlyist Fundamentalist who just love to preach the "endless" punishment false doctrine:

http://www.av-1611.com/False_Salvation.html

"Pray the Sinners Prayer" This doctrine is not found anywhere in the Bible."

"Scripture does not teach that salvation is accomplished by having one's sins forgiven. Most Denominations teach the false doctrine of effectual forgiveness. They teach that sins are not forgiven until one believes Jesus died for their sins."

And all that comes from KJV-onlyist Christian Fundamentalists like you. You should start looking into all the false doctrines you believe in...

He's wrong on the "unforgivable" sin though. According to the vast majority of your denomination, the "unforgivable" sin is giving credit to the devil for the miraculous works of the Lord. Like when those men accused Him of casting out demons by Belzebub. Isn't that what you do when you refuse to admit that salvation is 100% of the Lord and has nothing to do with the will of a spiritually dead, depraved, sinful, carnal man?

"Ephesians 2:8 KJV reads "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

HIS faith. Our pathetic, weak, human faith is nothing. Why do you think that's called grace, my friend? Not just because He gave His life for us on the cross, but also, because He gives us HIS faith upon salvation and that is a grace too. Put that through your head once and for all. Nothing, you hear me, NOTHING that we have; faith, strength, love doesn't come from HIM. We have no faith, no strength, no love of our own. We are NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING without Him. It's just like sin. How do you resist temptation? In your own strength? I think not. With HIS strength, HIS faith. Those are all graces...

"Jesus said, Matthew 7:13-14 KJV "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."   

Another piece of scriptures that has been misinterpreted. Jesus was talking to His disciples and prophecizing the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the mosaic system. Most of the Jews chose to follow their religious leaders (Pharisees) instead of Jesus. They perished or were taken captive. Nothing about "endless" punishment or punishment beyond the grave is imply in that passage. Also, half of the Jews were blinded, that the Gentiles might be saved. But Paul clearly says that Jerusalem will be saved, after all the Gentiles have been saved...

"Proverbs 14:12 KJV "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Like perishing of a violent death, in this life and this world. He punished many sinners with physical death/destruction in this life and this world, both in the O.T and N.T...

Love will always triumph over hatred, light will always triumph over darkness and Jesus will always triumph over the forces of evil and the disease of sin. Infinite Love Himself will cure us all. I will never doubt the infinite love and infinite saving power of our Heavenly Father...

I could not shut up and not say anything because those Christians and Muslims who have protected each others and prayed for each others are doing the right thing...

"Don't judge, lest ye be judged."

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

I think about you and pray for you. Take care, beloved brother.

Michelle."

My poor beloved brother, Thomas... Why do you refuse to preach the true Gospel, the Victorious Gospel? I so wish I could share this with you... :sigh: :HeartThrob:

http://www.chacha.com/topic/egyptian-protests/news/are-egyptian-muslims-and-christians-protecting-each-other

"The Christians felt confident they would be safe from attack while they offered prayers for the dead, because their Muslim countrymen were there to protect them."

Prayers for the dead... They were Christian Universalists, not Fundamentalists... That explains it...

Repentance is not "only" a change of mind....it is a change of mind.
I just wonder about where you are at in your salvation walk; it would seem that  you are very knowledgeable about what the Bible says, do you have an idea of what the Bible teaches?
Let me just say this..... I am of the persuasion that "fire and brimstone" are a tool of love and not fear, heat yes, but not fear.
What is it you are looking for? Confirmation that you are where it(whatever that is) and your life is supposed to be. Do want or need affirmation that what you know is what it is? Just what kind of help are you looling for? These folks here, myself included will give you scripture and verse for you to allow the Holy Spirit to work in and for you, but I assure you unless you yeild and give you yourself to what you have been given to seek......you will remain where you are looking in.

Philippians 2: 3-11

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01/12/muslim-human-shields-to-protect-egyptian-christians/

"But the way Egyptians reacted to this terrorist operation has been the real surprise especially to the culprits and conspirators behind the church attack. No riots or clashes between Christians and Muslims took place, only people took to the streets to denounce the shameful attack and to express the everlasting solidarity between Muslims and Christians in Egypt as equal citizens of the same country and who have been living and coexisting in harmony and peace for over 1400 years now."

Did you hear that guys? Christians and Muslims, everlasting solidarity, living and coexisting in harmony and peace for over 1400 years in Egypt!!!! Why can't they just do that in America?

Let's pray... :sigh: :HeartThrob:

"And this is what civilized people do when they confront danger; they embrace each other and protect one another. They rally in demonstrations of love and solidarity yelling out the slogan “we live together or die together."

Amen. I must ask, are you accomplishing what you desire here with your posts. They are good and thought invoking, but are you not the one who is asking for help? I have not read all your posts, they are quiet lengthy, and I personally feel you may be attempting you win folks over to whatever you seem to seek help for. thanks and love and peace to you through Jesus

I came across this as I was doing research:

http://www.scionofzion.com/age.htm

This is utterly disgusting. This is so gross and so vile. I feel so sick to my stomach I feel like I'm gonna throw up. Going as far as to say the aborted baby and the retarded... How can these people live with themselves??? How can they sleep at night??? Twisting scriptures, not studying the Greek and the Hebrew and teaching vile and gross false doctrine... They enjoy teaching that God creates souls and bring people into this world just to throw them away like garbages to be endlessly roasted. As a woman once said, "God don't make no trash." But I never believed that babies and retarded people were guilty. This is NOT true. They are innocent. No only can't they tell good from evil, they are not aware and cannot understand. To think I was one of those E.T preaching Christian make me feel so sick, I've never felt that sick in my entire life... That is something I will NEVER understand. Why God let me believe such a vile, gross lie for years... I led so many people away from Jesus because of that vile and gross false doctrine... I don't even have their email adresses and I doubt they will ever write to me again... And now, Jesus is left to clean the mess... The mess that He Himself created by letting me believe that vile and gross lie for so many years... Not that I'm self-righteous or that I doubt His forgiveness of sins, but I wish I could do something to make up for what I did...

Poor Jesus... Poor people... Poor me... :sigh:

I'm gonna need to listen to some Christian Universalists ministering on Youtube and study some UR material for a few hours to get rid of that awful nausea... :sigh:

wow

"But a funny thing has happened in Egypt in 2011. When Muslim protesters in Tahrir Square drop to the ground to offer their daily prayers, they sometimes find themselves surrounded by Egyptian Christians standing at attention around them to shield them from the stones of attackers. Muslims in turn are offering the same protection to the Egyptian Christians.

While the potential for political change and democracy throughout North Africa and the Middle East seems to be increasing daily, and may have amazing and historic consequences, it just may be that the most important and far reaching change could come from Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians showing the world what it means to be your brother's keeper."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/pastor_confession.html

:crywipe: :crywipe: :crywipe: Poor man... Poor Thomas... Poor endoctrinated and brainwashed people... poor people I've led away from Jesus...

:sorry: :crywipe: :crywipe: Oh, that poor ex Fundamentalist pastor... Jesus, O Great Physician, please cure the poor sin-sick souls...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2011, 05:57:43 PM
Hi Michelle

I absolutely understand what you are going through.   The difficulty you will find is that while we can think the whole bible is true, the issue is where in the bible does it explain that everything you are reading must be literally true in context with a God who ordered all this?

The question I have for you is if the people who wrote the various texts that were one day discoverd and "then" compiled into what we now call the bible meant for those descriptions to be an accurate account of what God did to humans on the earth physically, or,  could it be possible that men used literal things happening around them to depict in the context of story telling in their generation and culture what God does in our hearts and mind spiritually?

For instance,  I personally do not believe God ordered the killing of any infant for some good and grand purpose that only he understands.   What I have found out to the best of my knowledge is that ancient cultures who went to war with another tribe would do their best to kill them all,  because they wanted to eliminate children from growing up and gaining the strength to take revenge out on their tribe later on.

Now, Christianity, has taught in various ways that God backed a certain tribe and would condone all of this because he was on their side.  In reality all we see is human nature wanting God to be on our side.   We can even see that on a smaller level where two professional football teams both pray to God to win.   Well, who wins then must of found the greatest favor with God huh?   Nonsense.


What we see is simply our modern human nature translated and taught in an incorrect light causing for the most part the exact problem you have now.  Most Christians have this same problem however their fear of daring to defy tradition completely gets in their way, but rather they step a foot outside the box here and there.


What I believe is that the OT is largely a metaphor.  For instance, if you understand the ancient barbaric ritual of killing a whole tribe due to the nature of the children growing up to seek revenge, then how can we transpose that to what God does?  Well it is fairly simple,  we can find out that sin can manifest itself in our lives through simple and seemingly innocent thoughts,

Adultery for instance can start with a man admiring a womans hair styke.  Simple and innocent to start with but then it can grow to admiring her smooth skin, and so on and so forth.

God would want us to kill those innocent thoughts in some manner in order to protect us from future harm.

So Michelle what I am asking you to try today is to throw out the bathwater and throw the corrupt baby of religious thought out with it, jump out of the box your trapped in and find a whole new world waiting for you.


Take care.

oh oh Paul you just came over to the dark side :laughing7:

This is interesting. Like everything else, it's BS mixed with truth:

http://terahertzatheist.ca/2008/02/19/i-hate-god/

I'm so sick of the whole stupid "people use their "free will" and send themselves to eternal torture" bullcrap... Decisionists (also known as freewillists)... As if God is not gonna save all mankind... As if man could save Himself...

And above all else, I'm sick and tired of cherry-picking, cafeteria “chrisitians” with a self-righteous, holier than thou attitude who call us "heretics". They sound like a broken record. Can't they sing another freaking tune? Is that the only insult they know? If I hear "heretic" one more time, I'm really gonna break something...

"oh oh Paul you just came over to the dark side."

If that's the Paul from the Bible you're talking about, you can bet your bottom dollar that he did, since he was a gross misogynist. I'm not even talking about the passage in which God says in the O.T that a woman who give birth to a male child is unclean for a week but if she give birth to a female child she is unclean for two weeks. Shows you how much God is misogynist and how much girls and women are utterly disgusting in his eyes...

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (Leviticus 12:2-5)"

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: SHE SHALL BE BURNT WITH FIRE." (Leviticus 21:9)

So much for such a thing "never even entered His mind" and the condemning of people burning their children to an idol...

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

In just those three verses, God shows what He thinks of His female children. They are ugly, dirty, disgusting things in His eyes... No wonder Paul was a total misogynist...

As if that wasn't enough, God said only male slaves were to go free, female slaves were to remain enslaved for their entire lives. Most were little girls married to very old men who sexually abused them and God condomned it all:

Exodus 21:7-11
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9. "If he designates her for his son [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money. First of all, did the daughter have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son? No!

Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER'S AGE and younger than his son!! So he's probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father's age or even MUCH older) can marry her.

Pedophilia all over the Bible and God condomned it:

Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex in both the Talmud and the Bible. Also, the age consent in US and Europe was as low as 10

1- Pedophilia and killing of "suckling infants" in the Bible!
2- Girls at the age of 3 were forced into sex and marriage in both the Talmud and the Bible.
3- Age consent in our world today only 100 years ago to girls as young as 10.

1- Pedophilia and killing "suckling infants" in the Bible!

Ironically, one of the Bible's 10 pillars or ten Commandments says: "Thou shalt not kill. (Exodus 20:13)." Yet, innocent children and non-virgin women were ordered to be killed by the mass, perhaps in thousands! 3-year old slave girls were also ordered to be raped by Moses.

1- Kill everything that "breathes" from humans and animals!
Deuteronomy 20:16
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.

It is certainly the Bible's principle and foundation to kill all humans and animals from the enemy's side. If one wouldn't call that terrorism, war crimes and mass-murdering, then what else should they call it?

2- Suckling infants were executed by the tens of thousands:

1 Samuel 15:2-4
2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah.

A praise for dashing little children against rocks as a form of revenge:

Psalm 137:8-9
8 O daughter of Babylon, O destroyed one, O the happiness of him who repayeth to thee thy deed, That thou hast done to us.
9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock!

3- The Pedophilic Verses against 3-year old girls:

The pedophilic Biblical verses are Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40. Below, you will see DETAILED HISTORY on these SPECIFIC verses from the Jewish Talmud explaining the pedophilia that took place against the 3-year old slave girls under the direct command of Moses.

While Christians are not obligated to follow the laws of the Talmud in their social lives, but the historical FACTS that exist in the Talmud about the Biblical verses Numbers 31:17-18 and Numbers 31:35-40 below, and how the "BIBLE FOLLOWERS" during those days were mostly pedophiles who literally forced sex on 3-year old girls after Moses' supposed 'Divine' order is clear indication that the Bible condones pedophilia.

As shown in the quotes below:
"....The Tannaïtic Midrash Sifre to Numbers in §157 comments on the above quoted commandment of MOSES to kill the Midianite women as well as the male children...."

"....According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were "suitable for having sexual relations." [138]...."

"Said Rabbi Joseph, "Come and take note: A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse....."

"A girl three years and one day old is betrothed by intercourse. "A girl three years old may be betrothed through an act of sexual intercourse," the words of R. Meir. And sages say, "Three years and one day old."....."

The Quotes and Proofs for Pedophilia Please pay attention to the bolded and underlined parts below:
The following was taken from http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...l/judaism.html regarding Numbers 31:17-18 in the Bible:

"They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)"

In other translations, it's not "girls", but women "CHILDREN"...

Read the whole thing yourself:

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36979

A girl or woman who was menstruating in both the Bible and Talmud was considered unclean and she had to be rejected for as long as she was considered unclean, separated from the people. As if she even asked to be born, as if she ever asked to have a body that did things she didn't even asked for. She was created that way and God condemned and punished it by ordering rejection and separation. He is the one to blame for creating women that way and HIS victims get the punishment. A man who slept with a menstruating woman was to be slaughtered...

It would've been better if God had never created women. Three-years old little girls wouldn't be marry off to just about any old man and raped by those old pervert schmucks and women wouldn't be called unclean things just because because they bleed every month and have no control over that. They wouldn't be put through child traffic, slavery and pedophilia. God condomn it all... Even today in some countries, that kind of thing is still going on and God condomn it. It's all in the scriptures... There is no excuse for women's abuse, pedophilia and dashing babies against rocks...

The Bible even says that in the "end", God will expose all secret, hidden things for the whole world to see. The whole human race and the whole angelic race will see every detail of everyone's personal, private lives. Every single person on the planet who has been defiled, raped, polluted (just like me) will see this part of his or her life exposed for everyone to see, will see his or her shame exposed to the entire human race and entire angelic race. No detail of anyone's private life will remain private. All sins will be exposed for the entire two races to see, apparently that includes all supposedly "forgiven and not remembered" sin. So much for true forgiveness, since ALL secret, hidden things (private lives) will be exposed for the entire two races to see. Every single person that has been raped will see their shame, defileness and uncleaness exposed for the whole world to see. ALL secret, hidden things will be exposed. All committed sins that have supposedly been forgiven and forgotten will be brought up. There's even a passage in the scriptures that says God will silence the whole world and then make everyone's lives flash before their eyes so that they relive every disgusting sins they have ever committed from the day they were born. And I've read testimonies saying that it includes supposedly forgiven, forgotten sins that are supposedly covered by the blood of Christ. And since people's memory will be made not to forget anything ever again, made perfect and immortal, people will never forget what they have seen and what they know. It will be an everlasting shame, forever. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, everyone will always remember and everyone will know. Forever. You can come across a person thirty years later and he will have forgotten you, your name or something that happened to you. But people will NEVER forget what they have seen on that day. There will be nowhere to run or hide, to escape the shame and no detail of any private life will be remain private. God is way too sick and evil to keep it between Him and the sinner and deal with everyone individually. And one can wonder, if ALL things are exposed, which includes all forgiven and forgotten sin, then why did He died on the cross since forgiven and forgotten is a lie and everything will be brought up?

Mark 4:22 Things are hidden temporarily only as a means to revelation.] For there is NOTHING hidden except to be revealed, nor is anything [temporarily] kept secret except in order that it may be made known. (Amplified)

Mark 4:22 For EVERYTHING that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light.

And doubtless you recall the words of Christ: "There is NOTHING hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was anything kept secret, but that it should come abroad." Mark 4:22

EVEN CONCERNING THE REDEEMED ONES of this age God’s Word is that when the Lord comes
He will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the
hearts. I Corinthians 4:5.

http://bible.org/illustration/which-hidden-will-be-revealed

So much for forgiveness and forgetting... There is no forgivenes and not remembering the forgiven sins as some passages supposedly say. Everything will be brought up again. That's not forgiven and forgotten. So dying on the cross to supposedly forgive and forget all sins is nothing but a gross lie???? When things are forgiven and forgotten you don't bring them up again. And you don't expose every tiny detail of everyone's private lives for the whole world to see when you REALLY are love. That's hatred and evil... That's sick and gross...

God is sick and merciless... He will expose every tiny detail of everyone's private lives for the entire two races to see instead of keeping it between the sinner and Himself and deal with everyone individually and ALL things, that includes from birth, even ALL things that have supposedly been "fogiven and forgotten" will be exposed... So much for God is love... How could I ever love Him after all the horrible, disgusting things He has condomned and how He will expose every tiny detail of everyone's private lives for the whole world to see, including beatings, rapes and the supposedly forgiven sins? There are even scriptures saying that saints will judge the world. First, we will be judged by Him, then we will be forced to examine every detail of each others' lives and judge each others. The saints will judge the world... Gary even said in one of his articles: "If hell is real will you judge your relatives or friends to hell?" Do you really want to judge anyone, to judge, condemn and punish? Me, I will not do any harm to anyone, I will never obey him in this, I'd rather take even the worst kind of punishment then judge, condemn, punish and harm people. I will never sentence anyone to anything... So much for "don't judge"...

25For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. (KJV)

The rich will become even more rich and the poor will be even more robbed. So much for it's harder for a camel to fit into a needle's chast than for a rich person to enter even... Since I have not, being nearly poor myself, I guess everything will be taken from me... God clearly despised all poor... and put people into two categories, the "have" and the "have not". Is He better than any sinner?

Mark 4:24 25For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away (by force) (Amplified)

Since God was a misogynist who condomn the rape and sexual abuses of little girls, no wonder Paul was a misogynist too. Blaming the original sin and the fall of mankind on women alone, saying that women were created second, sinned first, should keep silent, never teach, veil their heads, wear SHAMEFACEDNESS... Women had absolutely no right and no freedom, much less freedom of speech... Paul even lie in the Bible. He said that women shall be saved through Childbearing when only Christ's blood sacrifice on the cross saves. Isn't that a gross lie? Bearing children is work and humans can't save themselves. Salvation by work is a lie too. The catholic church used that verse to force women into having children by the dozens, forbidding contraception and birth control. Marriage and having children is a personal choice. The earth is overpopulate and poverty is everywhere, the earth certainly doesn't need to be populate or repopulate like before and after the flood. The catholic church even excommunicated women who didn't bear children and threatened them with eternal torment in hell. Paul even go as far as to say that a woman's body belongs to her husband and he has total power over it and the other way around. As if our bodies were objects and the possessions and properties of someone else. Did you know that God in the Bible calls raping a woman "humbling" her? There is even a passage in the Bible in which a woman is given over to men to be raped and then when she gets home, he chops her to pieces and the person telling the story says it's a warning to everyone. Nice. Misogyny is all over the Bible and God condomns it. I'm sorry but between that and the horrors of the O.T, I've had it with the scriptures. I will keep studying the TM UR material, but I dropped Bible study entirely. I just can't cope with scriptures anymore. And God is seriously not making anything better for Himself. The more I get to know Him, the more I wish I didn't. How could I ever love such a sick, merciless monster who gets women and three years old little girls raped, order little girls to be sold into slavery, married to very old men who abuse them, order men to "humble" women and consider little girls to be pollution and totally unclean and disgusting when male are just as sinful and unclean? I'm really starting to wonder if I'd better off as an atheist. I've walked away from God years ago. I've came back to Him and I can't say that things are getting any better for me. I'm a horrified, tortured, tormented soul andthe scriptures seem as dark and evil as the world around me. Everything is dark and evil. My heart will always be broken, horrified. My soul will always be tormented, damaged and sick. I will always have this spiritual disease, this horror and this pain rotting me from the inside out. I don't doubt the revelation I received about the truth of UR, but all the rest, for what it's worth. Scriptures only damage me further. Is good and love all a lie and an illusion? I would ask you to pray for me, but He will not listen. When it comes to me, He just doesn't answer. It seems that there is never any kind of answer or explanation for any of this. I hurt like hell and everything is dark and bad. WHY, Jesus, WHY???? DON'T YOU DARE TO TOUCH MY FACE AND STOP TALKING TO ME, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!!!! I DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU, JESUS!!!!

Michelle, I don't see anything in the Bible condoning pedophilia.

The Talmud is something altogether different and does not concern me in any way.  I consider the Talmud among what Jesus called 'the teachings of men'.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Michelle, there seems to be a lot of condemnation and bitterness in many of your posts.  Much of your acussational ranting is really unwarrarnted.  In "your" reasoning God despises women over men.  But none of your comments involve spiritual vision.  Even Scripture itself states that things written are types and shadows.  When Jesus spoke, he spoke in parables, which is the same as types and shadows.  In other words, what you see on the surface isn't the core of the message being told.  The message lies beneath the literalization of the words being written.  Paul calls it a mystery, which it is to our minds because it's not "for" our minds, but instead, it's intended to be received into our "spiriti". 

Your mind is demanding answers because, according to your mind, the way you're reading it, it appears to you to be a bunch of lies.  The truth is, God sees both male and femail as one.  They are "man".  But the symbolism there is, man represents spirit and soul/mind represents woman.  The laws of purification are representing the fact that the mind requires more effort to cleanse than your spirit. 

This extends from other posts of yours one of which that comes to mind is your accusation that because all "you" see is doom and gloom around you, God must be lying when we say he sees you through love rather than judgment.  Your mind . . .OUR mind can't grasp all that God is and the logic through which God operates in.  His logic is not the same as our logic because he is from above, an ascended place and we are born from below, which is flesh.  You can't use flesh logic to comprehend spiritual truth.  And when people try to answer your questions, you're not going to receive or accept them because you're not looking at things from His perspective.

The truth is, ALL our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west, which is to say . . it's out of our existence.  Our eyes will continue to see our sin as long as we are looking at life from a fallen state.  But when we let go of who we are and embrace who "he" proclaims us to be, we'll be able to see life where there is death and light where there is darkness.  And love where there is now bitterness.  Count it ALL joy.

This world is full of trials and tribulation.  Full of people falling short.  Full of everything that is flesh.  But we're to BE OF GOOD CHEER . . .we're to walk in celebration not because of all the sludge or that we've got our head in the sand from what's going on around us . . .but because we can see PAST the sludge and see that the power of Christ has already OVERCOME this world . . .we're not part of it . . we're in it, but we're not part OF it.  Fix your eyes on things that are eternal and these things around us that are temporal will no longer have any power over us.

Michelle, please check you PM's and follow through on the suggestions.  Thanks.

James.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-hV8cIzo7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCByHBwb340

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJzAzBqc_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3zVJkHOb00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMjPhHVIOKk

Obama's secret agenda:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVYKkFkbYs

False Christ (heretic is more like it):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn4nppx1cuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn4nppx1cuE

That man is a devil... And people totally fall for it. Tons of them, saying he is God and giving their money and possessions to him... God sent them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie because they had no love of the truth...

Total proof of the NWO master plan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rU5df2yTsw

Lauryn Hill exposing the industry (This one will bring tears to your eyes):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiF_G13VM5o

Mind-controlled cops:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYzXSwdHVlE

They're projecting those holograms from the satellites in space. Wanna see what Project Blue Beam could do just last year? You better sit down first:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyQv18_hiTs&NR=1

Still think it's a joke? Now imagine a hundred of those fake demons running all over town, along with a hundred REAL evil spirits unleashed by satanists. I've been researching this stuff for months. They try to confuse us all the time so that we can't tell the real evil spirits from the fake ones (holograms). And their holograms just keep getting more and more realistic every year... TradeMark Holograms make the holographic images... Blue Beam, is the name of the Project... You have heard the sound of the fake helicopter in that other video I've posted. Images and sounds from space satellites. It will be extremely realistic... The journalist Serge Monast and many other people were silenced for good when they tried to expose this... But Serge Monast succeeded before he was killed with a fake heart attack...

Different videos of this just keep showing up all over Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh3bODlZAJc&NR=1

Now, imagine that you hear a telepathic voice in your head that speak from the inside of you. Think I'm a nutcase? Think this is a joke? Everything on this planet, including us are made of electromagnetic energy. Even our brainwaves. Not only can they create holograms, they can, with different frequency of electromagnetic energy, induce hallucinations, beam voices into your heads and control your emotions. They can induce panic, fear, anxiety, depression, heavy sorrow. They can control people's behavior. They can make people angry, aggressive, commit any kind of crime, murder, suicide. I suggest that you seriously  study these things. Be prepared 'cause anything could happen. They really have the technology to do this, they are doing it and they are satanists. They have demonic help.

The NWO plans for CHRISTIANS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idoj_H4L4jk&NR=1

I just want to say that Satan is not the "Morning Star". That's a lie from the infamous, satanic NIV Bible. Satan is "the Son of the Morning". "The Morning Star" is God/Jesus. The NIV was written to make Satan/Lucifer and Jesus out to be one and the same. A gross, satanic lie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idoj_H4L4jk&NR=1

Don't be deceived...

Quote from: Nathan on March 15, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
Michelle, there seems to be a lot of condemnation and bitterness in many of your posts.  Much of your acussational ranting is really unwarrarnted.  In "your" reasoning God despises women over men.  But none of your comments involve spiritual vision.  Even Scripture itself states that things written are types and shadows.  When Jesus spoke, he spoke in parables, which is the same as types and shadows.  In other words, what you see on the surface isn't the core of the message being told.  The message lies beneath the literalization of the words being written.  Paul calls it a mystery, which it is to our minds because it's not "for" our minds, but instead, it's intended to be received into our "spiriti". 

Your mind is demanding answers because, according to your mind, the way you're reading it, it appears to you to be a bunch of lies.  The truth is, God sees both male and femail as one.  They are "man".  But the symbolism there is, man represents spirit and soul/mind represents woman.  The laws of purification are representing the fact that the mind requires more effort to cleanse than your spirit. 

This extends from other posts of yours one of which that comes to mind is your accusation that because all "you" see is doom and gloom around you, God must be lying when we say he sees you through love rather than judgment.  Your mind . . .OUR mind can't grasp all that God is and the logic through which God operates in.  His logic is not the same as our logic because he is from above, an ascended place and we are born from below, which is flesh.  You can't use flesh logic to comprehend spiritual truth.  And when people try to answer your questions, you're not going to receive or accept them because you're not looking at things from His perspective.

The truth is, ALL our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west, which is to say . . it's out of our existence.  Our eyes will continue to see our sin as long as we are looking at life from a fallen state.  But when we let go of who we are and embrace who "he" proclaims us to be, we'll be able to see life where there is death and light where there is darkness.  And love where there is now bitterness.  Count it ALL joy.

This world is full of trials and tribulation.  Full of people falling short.  Full of everything that is flesh.  But we're to BE OF GOOD CHEER . . .we're to walk in celebration not because of all the sludge or that we've got our head in the sand from what's going on around us . . .but because we can see PAST the sludge and see that the power of Christ has already OVERCOME this world . . .we're not part of it . . we're in it, but we're not part OF it.  Fix your eyes on things that are eternal and these things around us that are temporal will no longer have any power over us.

Nathan, I was thinking the same thing. 

Set your mind on things above and not on the things here on earth.  (Phil. 4:8) Finally brethern, whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, and of a good report, and if there be any virtue and praise, think on these things.

CHB

Quote from: Michelle on March 15, 2011, 06:36:53 PM
"oh oh Paul you just came over to the dark side."

If that's the Paul from the Bible you're talking about, you can bet your bottom dollar that he did, since he was a gross misogynist

Michelle, my dear troubled sister, I don't think you're even aware of what's really going on here. Pneuma was addressing a poster called Paul. The name of the person posting here, that pneuma was addressing, is Paul Hazelwood.

You don't need to ask us to pray for you, because we are already. Please take a break from all this stuff you are reading on the Internet. Is there someone in real life who is supportive that you can talk to?

I can see people are also trying to help you with private messages. Please listen. These people care about you. God does too.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 14, 2011, 05:50:13 AM
Repentance is not "only" a change of mind....it is a change of mind.
I just wonder about where you are at in your salvation walk; it would seem that  you are very knowledgeable about what the Bible says, do you have an idea of what the Bible teaches?
Let me just say this..... I am of the persuasion that "fire and brimstone" are a tool of love and not fear, heat yes, but not fear.
What is it you are looking for? Confirmation that you are where it(whatever that is) and your life is supposed to be. Do want or need affirmation that what you know is what it is? Just what kind of help are you looling for? These folks here, myself included will give you scripture and verse for you to allow the Holy Spirit to work in and for you, but I assure you unless you yeild and give you yourself to what you have been given to seek......you will remain where you are looking in.

I didn't mean "only", I meant "simply". As if you  never made any mistake too. It happens to anyone to use the wrong words and I had a lot of things in mind. And just so you know Micah, I never said that the lake of fire was a tool of fear. I was quoting from a message I sent to my Fundy friend and I was quite depressed. He keeps calling me a heretic and say that I'm spreading false teachings, but he's the one doing that, not me. A lot of Fundies don't agree with his theology and his false teachings are nowhere to be found in scriptures. He brainwashed me for months, but I've done research and found out that he was guilty of the very things he accused me of, false teachings and heresy. I love my friend. I'm only trying to show him that what he learned and what he is teaching is unscriptural...

Quote from: thinktank on March 13, 2011, 10:11:41 PM
I enjoy reading your posts, you remind me of shadow, a member who left and then came back, maybe you guys should speak to each other, perhaps.


I am so sick and so tired of being too broke to buy a decent gift to my mother and sister and above all else, I'm sick and tired of having nothing to offer to Jesus. He died for me, on a cross and He bled and suffered like hell for me, He had that Bible sent to me and brought me to the truth of UR and I HAVE NOTHING TO OFFER HIM!!!!
Michelle

Can you make a cup of tea for your mother?




# Matthew 10:42
And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward."
Matthew 10:41-42 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)

# Mark 9:41
Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward

Problem is... she's an unsaved...

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 14, 2011, 04:20:11 AM

Quote from: Michelle on March 13, 2011, 09:26:52 PM
I'm not judging or condemning anyone here, but when are you people going to wake up???? 

Well of course you are, but that is ok.   Judgment is not inherantly a bad thing, the bible simply says that you will be judged by the same measure.

One of the things a person goes through when being called out of the institutions of religion is that you want to retain all the convenient teachings that cater to your own beliefs of the things you do good.

Oh you are not a homosexual, so certainly religion got that one right, etc etc etc.....

So you want to retain the callous fundamentalism that you find ok and then hollar and complain that universalists aren't railing on about all the other stuff, satanism, end time, ect ect ect.

Eventually you realize that what a lot of people really want to do is do what has caused all the other denominations to form, they simply want a religion that agrees with them and eveything they want to do and are against.

They want to trade one institution for another.  that is why so many universalists want Rob Bell to take the heat for them, Go Rob,  make christianity into our religion.  Quite sickening actually.  The belief of God saving all mankind hasn't taught a lot of people much of anything.

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles. The modern versions are even more clear about that than the KJV. The Bible is very clear about this. God created man for woman and woman for man. He created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve or Eve and Lisa. God says it's an abomination. It's a perversion from Satan to turn people into deviants and keep humans from reproducing. God clearly says that those who don't repent will undergo some punishment in the lake of fire. Also asl just about any deliverance pastor, that's the work of evil spirits. I was guilty of that kind of attraction. I renounced, repented and I was healed because nothing is impossible to Jesus. If people were really born like that or had some kind of genetic or hormonal problem, God would not say that they will undergo punishment. God wouldn't punish people for the way he created them. It is unnatural and the Bible clearly list it among the sins that send some to the LOF to undergo punishment. About satanism... and the end time, no one knows the day or the hour. Nobody. But you must admit that those satanists are up to something. It's not about the Fundies. I've been studying the stuff for months and I know it's very real and serious. It takes a lot to convince me. If you didn't do serious research about it, how would you know? So again, with all due respect, I ask you. Have you studied it? It's like a Fundy who says that Christian Universalism is a total heresy and a gross lie. What would be the first thing you would say to that person? "Have you studied it out yourself? Have you done serious research?" If you think it's a nutcase's conspiracy theory, I can't force you to see the truth, but I advise you to do serious research on the subject. People have been harm and killed and their families too, more children disappear every year and lots of people say they have seen "UFOs" and strange things in the sky, not to mention 200 earthquakes in the space of only one month and that was years ago, there have been much more of them since then. I could show you some serious videos that would make your hair neck stand up. I know it's true and serious. It's all over the newspapers these days. Japan, the government of my country discussing and signing stuff with Obama, The eathquakes and tsunami...


Luke 10:18, Jesus said, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Did you know that "Baraq" means lightning in Hebrew? Check Strong's Concordance. "lightning and high place" (baraq ubamah). What does that tell you? That guy is the antichrist... One of many...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbloBA2Lek

Check the Hebrew yourself and find out...

Subliminal messaging. (Obama and a crowd chanting: "Thank you, Satan"):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-TMKUea87E&feature=related 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPZdLqGG7HY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS53I-k_T4o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqvVuiHW_ZA&feature=related

Still think I'm a conspiracy theorist nutcase?

Everyone will be saved.  Jesus will win.  The Earth and everyone in it will be made righteous, perfect, and good.

Why are you worried about a shadow government (if it even exists) that isn't going to last more than a blip of a second in the scope of Eternity?  And more than that - why are you worried about it at all?  Considering that everything will be put under Christ in subject to His Governance; and not only that...but the Earth and Universe and the rest of it will be pretty much rolled up like a burning scroll --- again, Everyone will be saved.  Jesus will win.  The Earth and everyone in it will be made righteous, perfect, and good. --- why are you worried?

Quote from: Molly on March 15, 2011, 06:55:54 PM
Michelle, I don't see anything in the Bible condoning pedophilia.

The Talmud is something altogether different and does not concern me in any way.  I consider the Talmud among what Jesus called 'the teachings of men'.

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

From the Bible:

Exodus 21:7-11
7. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
8. "If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her FOR HIMSELF, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.

The King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

9. "If he designates her FOR HIS SON [Note: "his son" means that the master is either her father's age or even much older!], he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.

The King James says "bethroded to his son" instead...

10. "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.

The King James says: "duty of marriage"...

11. "If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

First of all, did the daughter have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son? No!

Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that MOST LIKELY, SHE IS HIS DAUGHTER'S AGE and younger than his son!! So he's probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father's age or even MUCH older) can marry her.

Check different Bibles and see what you get...

See also Numbers 31:17-18. Depending on the version, you will have "GIRLS" or women "CHILDREN". Moses tell the men to kill everything in sight but keep the virgin little girls for themselves. They are MINORS. KIDS. That means between 3 and 12 years old...

And I'm not even talking about the passage in which a woman is given to men by her master, to be raped, then when she comes back home, he chop her to pieces and the person who tell the story says it's a warning to all. And those passages in which God calls raping a woman "humbling" her. You can check all those verses in different Bibles...

Can you imagine a poor three years old little girl being married to a sixty years old man or his thirty years old son and that man raping a three years old little girl? Don't you feel sick to your stomach? I do. All I feel is burning rage towards God. They say that Jesus experienced everything we are going through. That all horrible things we've been through he has experienced it. Apparently not. He wasn't raped when He was in human form. He wasn't viollated and sullied. He should've experienced that, then He could finally repent and cry for what He has done to all those small, defendless little girls. Leaving them at the hands of those men and even commanding marriage and sex with minors. He didn't experienced being defiled by sin either, He didn't experienced being imperfect, making mistake as a human and falling flat on His face. No, He didn't experienced it all. Now, do you understand how I feel? I've been a victim too. I was between 8 and 12 and I was repeatedly abused. I prayed and cried and sobbed and begged and He didn't do anything, didn't answer once. But this isn't about me. This is about all the other little girls who were probably as young as four years old. No one came to their rescue and God condomn it all. And it's still going on today in some countries. Ever wonder why so many teenage girls end up commoitting suicide or flee their countries? Some of them were spiritually abused and terrorized as well. They were told that if they didn't comply, they would face God eternal wrath and everlasting torture in hell-fire. I suggest you read: "Spiritual terrorism", by Boyd Purcell. I've started reading it. Tell you what Molly. Find the Bibles that render the Greek and Hebrew as accurately as possible and if you find them, let me know. You said you would give me Bible verses, Micah? You can help with this. I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible. If any of you have material, articles, anything, send them too me. I want to settle this... or I'll never find any peace... I'm just so sick and so tired of living with all that rage... 

"These folks here, myself included will give you scripture and verse for you to allow the Holy Spirit to work in and for you, but I assure you unless you yeild and give you yourself to what you have been given to seek......you will remain where you are looking in."

Please do, Micah...

Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 14, 2011, 06:03:50 AM



Philippians 2: 3-11

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.

The 1611 KJV has it right on that one:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Jesus was God in human form and He perfectly grasped who and what He was. That passage was incorrectly rendered in many Bibles. It's an insult and a lie to say that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. I'm sorry, but it's true...

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

Quote from: Nathan on March 15, 2011, 06:56:41 PM
Michelle, there seems to be a lot of condemnation and bitterness in many of your posts.  Much of your acussational ranting is really unwarrarnted.  In "your" reasoning God despises women over men.  But none of your comments involve spiritual vision.  Even Scripture itself states that things written are types and shadows.  When Jesus spoke, he spoke in parables, which is the same as types and shadows.  In other words, what you see on the surface isn't the core of the message being told.  The message lies beneath the literalization of the words being written.  Paul calls it a mystery, which it is to our minds because it's not "for" our minds, but instead, it's intended to be received into our "spiriti". 

Your mind is demanding answers because, according to your mind, the way you're reading it, it appears to you to be a bunch of lies.  The truth is, God sees both male and femail as one.  They are "man".  But the symbolism there is, man represents spirit and soul/mind represents woman.  The laws of purification are representing the fact that the mind requires more effort to cleanse than your spirit. 

This extends from other posts of yours one of which that comes to mind is your accusation that because all "you" see is doom and gloom around you, God must be lying when we say he sees you through love rather than judgment.  Your mind . . .OUR mind can't grasp all that God is and the logic through which God operates in.  His logic is not the same as our logic because he is from above, an ascended place and we are born from below, which is flesh.  You can't use flesh logic to comprehend spiritual truth.  And when people try to answer your questions, you're not going to receive or accept them because you're not looking at things from His perspective.

The truth is, ALL our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west, which is to say . . it's out of our existence.  Our eyes will continue to see our sin as long as we are looking at life from a fallen state.  But when we let go of who we are and embrace who "he" proclaims us to be, we'll be able to see life where there is death and light where there is darkness.  And love where there is now bitterness.  Count it ALL joy.

This world is full of trials and tribulation.  Full of people falling short.  Full of everything that is flesh.  But we're to BE OF GOOD CHEER . . .we're to walk in celebration not because of all the sludge or that we've got our head in the sand from what's going on around us . . .but because we can see PAST the sludge and see that the power of Christ has already OVERCOME this world . . .we're not part of it . . we're in it, but we're not part OF it.  Fix your eyes on things that are eternal and these things around us that are temporal will no longer have any power over us.

Look, okay? I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed by Fundies for several year. I've been repeatedly told over and over again to take ALL scriptures literally. I've been toild that "so-called" deeper meanings was a lie, that God was not a God of confusion. You have no idea how many they quoted that verse to me. But the fact is that all I felt was confusion. I'm just BEGINNING to realize that literalism is a poison and certainly isn't from God. It's a deadly poison. Ever read: "Spiritual terrorism", by Boyd Purcell? He says that a guy called the spiritual terrorism related to the E.T doctrine, the spiritual walking zombie syndrome. Well, it just seems that literalism isn't any better. Another poison that kills and turn people into freaking spiritual walking zombies. I've started to read the book. I can afford to buy any book and several chapters are missing 'cause it's a Google book, but I take what I can get. If you want to read a few chapters for free, here it is:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=spwHeS3Rxl0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=spiritual+terrorism+boyd+purcell&hl=fr&ei=5T6ATcTtONLpgQfgyL2iCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=true

I've suffered all kind of abuses. No wonder I'm so screwed up. In fact, everyone is, to some degree. I've received the revelation about the truth of UR, but it just seems that some of the doctrines and false beliefs that I have been taught are firmly implanted into my mind and the worse thing is, my stupid carnal mind cling to them. I'm so exhausted. I'm so sick and so tired of all this nwo-end time-babylon-satanist crap. I don't remember who posted this because I'm too troubled to think clearly, I think it was Lefein. But I'm so tired of fighting the freaking satanic forces of Babylon, especially since I'm on my own to do it now. The only friend I had, a Fundy, barely talk to me now. I've been told by the Fundies that good Christians are supposed to be warriors for Christ, doing spiritual warfare, working themselves to death to warn and inform people from danger and deception. In fact, back when I was a Fundy, I was a Watchman on the tower. Now, what am I supposed to be? I'm caught between my old life and my new life. I've been a Fundy for so long and it emotionally, psychologically and spiritually damaged me, nearly even killed me. I've received a revelation from Jesus who told me to search and study the E.T doctrine and find the true meaning behind it all. I became a Christian Universalist as He eventually started teaching me UR through TM material and Gary's videos. What am I supposed to be now? Am I still a Watchman?

I have been taught that if I don't take my responsibilities as a Christian, people will be deceived and hurt because of me. Should I give up warning people entirely? Should I stop fighting spiritual warfare? Aren't Christians supposed to stand up to the devil? Focussing in Christ and positive stuff is a good thing, but what would be life without responsibilities and a fair share of spiritual battles? Being completely useless and doing, I could never live like that. I'm not saying that you're not doing anything, but life is kinda boring if you don't get your hands dirty once in a while. The Bible is full of scriptures about intercessors, people casting out evil spirits or prophecising. And God had works prepared for us in advance and if we had no work and responsibilities, we would be completely useless, so what would have been the point of God creating us, of us existing at all? The truth is I never was a good spiritual warrior. I either fell to sin or collapse from exhaustion. And a couple of times, I suffered from lack of faith, overtaken by discouragement or despair.

The truth is I'm weak, I always was. But I took my duty very seriously, and even when utterly exhausted, I kept getting back up, fighting, warning, informing. Because, I have this desire in me to stand up to evil no matter what. But once, I had this dream from God. I saw a man covered in chains and I couldn't help him. Then I found myself sitting in front of my computer. And there was a black cat in the room with me. He behave like a normal cat and wanted to be scratch. But I felt that this thing was very evil and not a cat at all. He tried to rub his face against me, but I pushed him away horrify. I knew he was a demon. When I pushed him away, he became furious and yeowled angrily. I knew he was going to attack me. I stood up to that demon and looked him in the eyes. I was determined not to move an inch, to stand my ground. Suddenly I was filled with pure, undiluted faith and I started saying the Lord's prayer. The cat-demon yeowled at me angrily and then he lept at me and started attacking my face with his claws. I looked him straight in the eyes and kept saying the Lord's prayer, standing my ground, not moving an inch, filled with such powerful faith flooding throught me that you couldn't even begin to imagine what it was like. I have never felt that strong in my entire life. Believe me, if we could run on faith alone, we wouldn't need strength. In fact, they are one and the same. The cat-demon just keep attacking my face with his claws, but he couldn't leave a single scratch on me. Not one. As I woke up, I heard the sound of chains being broken. I questioned my friend about my dream. He told me that the chained man was a human being, regardless of gender. That the man was me and that I had been freed from my chains.

Things started to change after that. I also had other dreams from God, a dream about broken shakles and another one that clearly was about Timothy 4:9-11. I now know that God was preparing to receive the truth of UR and preach a different Gospel. Those dreams didn't make sense at first. I thought they were about my true identity in Christ ("free" from chains or shakles). The truth is, even after six months, I still don't know who I am Him, my true identity in me. I've done Bible study, prayer, spiritual warfare, informing and warning, but even to this day, I still don't know who and what I really am in Him. So many Fundies claim to know who they are in Christ and what their true identities in Christ are. But they teach false doctrines and false teachings. I'm not saying it's your case, but from what I've seen, many Fundies do. Concerning myself, it just seems that my true identity in Christ will always be a mystery to me, just like so many other mystery. Just like the Triune God. Many testimonies say that God and Jesus stand face to face and talk to each others as of they were two separate entities, but they share the same light. All I know is that the three of them are one and the same. In fact, I have given up solving the mystery of the Holy Triunity a long time ago. Just TRYING to make a little sense out of it gives me a headache. It's the greatest of all mysteries and no one ever solved it. How could we, pathetic humans that we are, could ever fathom and comprehend it since we have finite minds and are stuck with our carnal minds till the day we die? Thank you for your advices. It helped. Can you please please give me some verses on the types and shadows and what Paul says about it?

O_o So when Paul said that women should keep silent in the church, he meant that those who are in Christ ("the church" should silence their minds to get closer to God in their inner temples???

And what to you mean He sees male and female as one? Surely He doesn't see us all as androgynous beings or he wouldn't say in the scriptures that a man who is being effeminate commits sin (and possibly the other way around though scriptures don't say anything about that). He even condemns cross-dressing. And what about celibate people? And to say that God see male and female as one would completely eliminate gender and deprive us of our identities. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. I just don't get it. Why can't God just see us for what we are instead of making things complicated and see us through His son's perfection when we are not perfect or as some sort of androgynous being when male and female are different??? The last thing I need is for anyone, including God to attack my gender identity. I have enough issues to deal with...   

Quote from: Lefein on March 16, 2011, 06:18:47 AM
Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

That's called a spiritual crisis, Lefein. That must be the, oh, the thousanth one? I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed for years. I'm stressed out, exhausted and to top it all, my stupid carnal mind won't be a good little dog and stay put and always get in the way. Stupid piece of crap. Why are we stuck with that thing till the day we die? If I had a whip or a freaking leash. And on top of it, I just can't seem to stop thinking or a I don't think enough. And for your information, Lefein, I don't HATE God. I never did. The problem is people often confuse anger with hatred. I made that mistake a few times and found out that they were two different things entirely. The thing is, if you rely on your emotions, you will confuse them. Just because you're angry with someone doesn't mean that you hate the person. Like a mother can be angry with her son, it doesn't mean she hates him. I've been angry, even furious with God, but I never hated Him. Even when I bore a "grudge" against Him for not intervening, not protecting me from my abusers, I felt too betrayed and wounded to hate Him. I tried building a relationship with Him, from 12 to 14, but it wasn't my time to be saved. I gave up at 14 because I thought He would never answer me anyway. I had been put through too many horrible things and I was a kid, I didn't really understand religion either. I was preaching I false, toxic gospel when I got saved, six months ago, and for some reason (I just don't get it), even after I got saved, He let preach that false, toxic gospel (I will not even capitalize it). Only months later did He revealed the truth of UR to me. I will never understand why He let me believe such a vile, gross lie. Especially a lie that cause so much damage. Building a relationship with Jesus is complicated. Especially when you have a hard time communicating and when you nearly don't know anything about relationships and how to build them. Having a relationship with Him feels weird. I often have the feeling that I've known Him my whole life, yet there is something alien to Him. In the literal sense of the word. He is otherwordly. There are moments in which I can feel His love for me and that peace that passes all understanding. But it just seems that I'm dealing with too much stuff right now to feel anything else than the weight of my spiritual issues, some doctrines and beliefs that I can hardly give up even though they are poisoning me and my carnal mind that just seem to take advantage of the situation because I'm vulnerable. What Nathan told me helped. Some of your posts helped too.

If any of you want to pray for me, feel free to do so. Ask Him to deprogram me from all traditions of men and doctrines of demons that have been loaded into me by the church and Fundies. That will help a lot. I know I'm not always easy and I'm sorry 'cause I sincerely love you all, brothers and sisters...

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2011, 07:40:57 AM

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Hi;
1 John 3;1  " Look at the kind of love the Father has given to us that you are allowed to be called a child of God."

Christ is the son of God.
We are joint heirs with Christ.
You are achild of God.
Christ has died for ALL your sins.
He knew you the world began.
God is Love.
Christ came to seek and save that which was lost. He was 100 percent successful.
You are leaning what to value and what not to value.
God loves you.
1 John 4;4 " Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

May His love set you free from your present bondage.

"They want to trade one institution for another. that is why so many universalists want Rob Bell to take the heat for them, Go Rob,  make christianity into our religion.  Quite sickening actually. The belief of God saving all mankind hasn't taught a lot of people much of anything."

What would be so wrong about that? Why preaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus to people if we don't want them to embrace Universal Restoration? You prefer them to remain in the E.T mentality? Christian Universalism was taught in church like 500 years ago. They had their own institution. They even had schools that taught it. It should be taught in schools and seminary too. So people who want to learn could study there and be taught with all the material they need. Isn't that what we want? To share the Gospel with other people? To see them embrace Jesus and Universal Salvation? 

Quote from: jabcat on March 15, 2011, 08:39:30 PM
Michelle, please check you PM's and follow through on the suggestions.  Thanks.

James.

Okay. I will. Take care, brother.

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 10:56:20 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 15, 2011, 08:39:30 PM
Michelle, please check you PM's and follow through on the suggestions.  Thanks.

James.

Okay. I will. Take care, brother.

Thank you, you too.

Michelle, very impressive your learning English.   :thumbsup:

We have a member names Quasitor.  With French being your first language, check this out from his signature;

http://sauveurdumonde.jimdo.com
Still in construction
One of the first french UR website

God bless.

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 05:18:40 AM

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles.

Yeah, that is exactly what the people who you are mad at will tell you too. And that is my point,  you are only railing against what is convenient for you to do so about.  You are only stirring up whats in the same religious box and hoping it comes out in a pattern that lets you feel good about it.

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 10:09:04 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2011, 07:40:57 AM

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Michelle they are not.  This is talking about men and women.
Exodus 21:7-11

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.



Numbers 31 is talking about the spoils of war.  'Keep [the female children] alive for yourselves.'  What does that mean?  That doesn't say anything about hurting or raping children.  It says to keep the innocent female children alive.  The phrase ['for yourselves'] is not even in the Hebrew.  They are allowed to take the innocent female children into the tribe.  This passage is cross referenced to Deut 21.  They marry women, Michelle, not children.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive [for yourselves]. <---- added by the translator of KJV



Here are the rules in Deuteronomy on treating captives.  There's nothing here about taking children for wives, Michelle.  If they are treating women captives this well, what would make you think they would hurt children?



Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Marrying Female Captives
10"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

See also Numbers 31:17-18. Depending on the version, you will have "GIRLS" or women "CHILDREN". Moses tell the men to kill everything in sight but keep the virgin little girls for themselves. They are MINORS. KIDS. That means between 3 and 12 years old...


Don't forget the customs, of back then. Most men would not be interested in minors, as it would be against moral conduct and also not appealing. I think the men would keep the girls until they bud, and that point the girl can then marry the man or leave. But after spending years in the company of the man and being looked after, with food and gifts, I'm sure that many of the relationships ended up in romantic affairs, bare in mind that when a man married in those days, he would be at duty to remain faithfull and so would by the community pressure, must be certain that he would love the woman, or otherwise he would have an unhappy married life for the rest of his life and he would not be able to simply leave her as simply as married couples do today.

Also bare in mind that merely surviving is a large part of existence in those days and people had to do what they had to do.
If it makes you feel any better bare in mind the poor men who had to become slaves to conquering armies, it was tough for both men and women.

It helps to know the history before passing judgement on those of the past. Today many people criticize the actions of the crusades etc, but know Nothing of the conditions of those times and I can imagine many of them doing exactly the same thing, if they lived in those time periods, whether going for glory, gold, duty or something else, they would be tempted beyond their understanding, since most today greatly pursue riches, I can imagine many going to fight for riches, many would claim, No they would not, but they do not understand the true reason why they do not go, because they possess the modern mindset, of using the mind a modern day pharisse, but had they had the physical and rough upbringing of the past, they would be ready and roaring and willing to die, if need be to make a bit of money to feed their familles or to escape.
Ha the heart of man is deceifull and wicked, but love shall overcome according to God.

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 06:11:19 AM
I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible.

The Young's Literal translation, which a number of people here use, is available online:

http://online-bible-study.net/youngs-literal-online-bible/

12-13 was also the marrying age of the time.  People didn't marry at 20, 30, or 40.  Most people didn't live past 40, and there were many other reasons, namely health and security for which a girl was married at 13.  Boys were also pressured to marry young (of which I have no issues with, it is not a negative thing to marry young, and marrying at 30 or 40 doesn't automatically make it better) --- Boys who didn't marry by 18/20, were often thought to be cursed.

In essence, people married young, and it was just fine and dandy.  It wasn't until about 50 or 60 years ago in The West (America, England, France?) that marriages began to be held at the ages of 25, 30, 40 - even in the 1960's 16 year olds were marrying 25 year olds, and otherwise.  And this was also just fine and dandy.

The issue of age discrepancy (a cultural issue specifically, rather than purely moral) came around when people decided that sex was more important than marriage...

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 06:19:57 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 14, 2011, 06:03:50 AM



Philippians 2: 3-11

Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross.

The 1611 KJV has it right on that one:

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Jesus was God in human form and He perfectly grasped who and what He was. That passage was incorrectly rendered in many Bibles. It's an insult and a lie to say that Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. I'm sorry, but it's true...

The lesson here is that He stepped down from the Throne and made himself a servant.
He did not grasp His equality with a clenched fist but rather let go of it and became a man for the good of all.
It is in His steps we are to follow.
He never complained about the abuse, insults and disabilities He endured.
He despised the cross but , but for the joy set before Him — He suffered silently.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 17, 2011, 04:17:51 AM
The lesson here is that He stepped down from the Throne and made himself a servant.
He did not grasp His equality with a clenched fist but rather let go of it and became a man for the good of all.
It is in His steps we are to follow.
He never complained about the abuse, insults and disabilities He endured.
He despised the cross but , but for the joy set before Him — He suffered silently.

Amen.

Now, this is extremely serious, guys. This isn't a joke. I have been doing research all day. I came across some infos that led me to other infos and so on and so forth, I've been connecting all the dots and it all fits. Now, you better sit down, because I'm warning you. When I'm through with you, you will not believe in the term "conspiracy theory/theorists" anymore. I have sent a message to my Fundy friend, with all the articles and videos I've found on the subject and I'm going to post it here, right now. When you are through reading those articles, watching those videos, connecting all the dots, you will find out that it's the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It all fits. This is extremely serious, so what I ask you to do is read the message, read the articles and watch the videos, and keep an open mind. I give you all the infos, so go through the, go through all the proofs, connect them and decide for yourself if it's true or not. It's a rather LENGHTY message, but I will stress it again, all the proofs are there, so please go through all of them, connect them and decide for yourself if it's true or not. Here's the message I sent to my Fundy friend:

"Some of his speeches say in reverse, "Hear my composite self for the Pharaoh Zeus!", "The mark that's now sooner" and "Marker will lavish you"...

http://www.thespiritmind.com/2010/05/14/obama-yes-we-can-thank-you-satan/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzU_rwY57iQ

Now, if I were you, Thomas, I'd get as many Watchmen on the job as I can. Some of them should get his songs and speeches, play them in reverse and see what they can get. Some of the videos on Youtube could be fake. There's always a couple of people who have nothing better to do than making fun out of other people, but so far, it seems that it's all true. You can also use the sound recorder on your computer.

Thomas, this is total proof that they are in league with THE SHADOW PEOPLE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kombnUflRJM

0:05 to 0:08, you can see the Shadow Man on the ceiling. As Obama is talking with the guy, the cloaked Shadow Man stands behind him. In fact, I think there are two entities in the room. One who stands right behind him and another one on the trail. Watch carefully. Those evil spirits have been oppressing me for ten years. I would wake up in the middle of the night, completely paralyzed, barely able to breathe as they fed on my lifeforce and my fear, on all the negative emotions caused by the traumas I've been through. Dabbling in the occult for three years in my teenagehood only made things worse, but I wasn't aware of that. I bought the lie "White" magic is good". Panic, fear, anxiety, anger, sorrow, it's all food to those entities. And the government is in league with them, so Shade was telling the truth about that. They are behind Project Blue Beam and know that all objects and living beings are made of electromagnetic energy. And I bet they know all about the torsion fields.Those people are being deceived. They think that because all objects and living beings are made of electromagnetic energy, if you control the E.E, you control the whole world, because you control what people are made of, their very substance. But they forgot that the only One who really is in control of everything is Jesus Christ. At the end of that video, you get a reverse speech that says he bought Bush and John McCain and they stuffed something inside him. Remember that video you sent me about the photo and the scar on his head that went all the way through his neck? That's obvious to me that he is possessed. Maybe he's been soul-scalped. Maybe that entity killed him and took over his body. How the heck could he have survived such a wound. Head and neck wounds like those are fatal. Obama is implanting subliminals into people's minds to manipulate and brainwash them. He even says in that reverse speech: "Thank you, Pharaoh." Thank you Pharaoh, Thank you Satan. And what about his reverse speech: "Hear my composite self for the Pharaoh Zeus"? Something's going on here. What do you know about the mysteries of Babylon?

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/search/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED052878&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED052878

Mmm...

Hey, take a look at this:

http://guidetoreality.blogspot.com/2010/03/spinoza-on-composite-self.html 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=AuBnyWBvoHoC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=%22composite+self%22&source=bl&ots=QfBJ3Ee9d3&sig=cLaoQqoa1EeakaY_TLAFvnWl4RM&hl=fr&ei=F5SBTYCMHsGRgQeSu63SCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&sqi=2&ved=0CGQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22composite%20self%22&f=trie

Oh, sh*t! Check this out:

http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/ScientificProof/restorationoflaughter_chap9.html

Oh, sh*t! What the heck is this!!!??? What the heck is Obama doing!!!??? Is that a freaking cult of the self??? That would explain his arrogant slogan: "Yes, we can." A minimum of self-esteem is necessary (calling ourselves, "imbeciles", "ugly-looking" and "pathetic" is unhealthy and damaging), but we are nothing without God. And the minimum of self-esteem we should have should be related to God. "I am a child of God, a beautiful creation of my Father", "I am gifted in that area, it's a good gift from my Father", etc. Appreciating ourselves as creatures of God, children of God. And we should always thank God for who we are and what we have. This whole New Age cult of self rob God from glory that belongs to Him alone. New Agers are obviously part of a religion of idolatry and self-worship. It's all about "the divine self", "Christ consciousness"... That's so sickening...

I know David Icke is a disinfo agent and He and his followers are not very bright, but listen to this:

"Also interesting is his reference to 'the Pharaoh, Zeus' when you consider the suggestions that Obama may be the clone of the Pharoah Akhenaton."

Mmm... Interesting... Don't you think? An evil spirit posing as Pharaoh Akhenaton... Some people think that Barack Hussein Obama is the second coming of Osiris, the Egyptian sun "god" (all false gods are fallen angels). They think that Osiris is the antichrist and was born as Obama or took over Obama and that he will sit in the temple of Solomon. I don't know why those people on the websites call it a "second coming". Probably another occult thing...

Check this out:

http://indigosociety.com/showthread.php?19070-Subliminal-Messages-Of-The-New-World-Order-quot-Please-Free-Your-Mind-quot-Now!!!

"Subliminal messages are every where. Subliminal messages were made illegal in 1973 but these laws have not stopped big companies from advertising hidden messages in text, images, verbally or just plain blatantly.

Subliminal messages effect your subconscious mind and can encourage different types of behaviour. Scientists have not suggested subliminal messages as being a dangerous form of advertising but the implications subliminal messages can cause vary on the personal mental state of each individual that are exposed to them.

Subliminal messages can be used for a variety of reasons, advertising companies use them to encourage people to buy their product, military use them to interrogate suspected terrorists, the media uses them to condition our minds, movies and logos use them to build suspense and to identify their company as one.

Musicians use them for either a joke or satanic ritual. What ever the reasons and in what ever medium they are inserted into the reality of subliminal messaging varies depending on the intentions the suspected company etc are using this technique for."

"Subliminals have been documented to affect dreams, conscious perception, emotional response, drive-related behavior, verbal behavior, judgment, purchasing decisions, and pathology."

"Because many subliminal appeals deal with homosexuality, castration, bizarre sexual fantasies, skulls, daggers, and other death symbols, the subliminals must be creating anxiety, fear, and other negative emotions in the population. Subliminal messages are the cause of most psychological problems."

*Shrug* I bet they don't work when you're aware of them and when you plead the blood of Jesus Christ over yourself, you are cleansed, so anything bad that has made its way into your subconscious lose its power...

"Hypnotically induced amnesia: One can be instructed under hypnosis to forget something and then to forget that one has forgotten."

I bet that explains why I can hardly remember many things from my past. That along with traumas. People that have suffered many traumas are easy to mind-control, the Illuminati use that. But Jesus doesn't let these things affect me anymore and He always work it all out to our good anyway. They just can't win that stupid game because they have already lost...

Check what they have to say on the subject:

http://newworldorderuniversity.com/?p=5424

"Political leaders understand how to misdirect verbally while misdirecting using body language. If you watch them closely you can see how they do it, but first someone has to tell you that you are being deceived. Body language manuals and Neurolingistic Programming are the bibles of deception.)"

Neurolingistic Programming, huh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

"It was claimed that NLP was capable of addressing the full range of problems that psychologists are likely to encounter, such as phobias, depression, habit disorder, psychosomatic illnesses, and learning disorders.[9] It also espoused the potential for self-determination through overcoming learned limitations[10] and emphasized well-being and healthy functioning."

See, now, that's sad. That could be used for good rather than evil...

I have done some research. There is no Pharaoh Zeus. There are Pharaohs and a pagan "god" called Zeus, but no Pharaoh Zeus. (A reference to the supreme pagan "god"?)

That's interesting:

"There is scarcely a king (or would-be-king) in a hundred who would not, if he could, follow the example of Pharaoh—get first all the peoples money, then all their lands, and then make them and all their children slaves forever."

Obama, the Rothschild's chosen Pharaoh (in four parts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTsxARCpTLw

He has Pharaoh blood in his veins! So, Obama is possessed by an evil spirit (or many of them) and he's the Rothschild's chosen Pharaoh? That sounds bad. They want to recreate Exodus! The more I dig this stuff, the more scary it becomes. You might want to post the infos and videos in that message on your website. People have to know about this. This is bad stuff, very bad stuf...

Now, wait a minute! That flag in the video! It has a blue six-pointed star with a black "Z" and the word "Zionism". So that star really isn't a national symbol of the real Jews, huh? And that badge or whatever it is, with the sun and nazi cross. Huh? Hitler and Nazis were sun worshippers?

O_O Oh, my God!

http://www.rense.com/general84/brck.htm

http://gunnyg.wordpress.com/2009/03/14/update-the-first-time-i-heard-of-barackby-tom-fife/

Jackpot! "The first time I heard of Barack":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8qGrWOsZrA

I just remembered! I have these on my Youtube channel!

"Obama was making a secret radio speech to his supporters ealier this week, he spoke in German in hopes of hiding his message from the rest of the people, however I have translated his speech for all of you here to listen to."

"From the first day I am sworn in as president I will be your god, and no one and nothing else!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2bIgfx4PXI

The secret satanic agenda of Barack Obama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVYKkFkbYs

It's all about fulfilling the biblical prophecies... They want to further their Babylonic system and enslave the world through a Pharaoh. But they forgot that the only One who's really in control is Jesus Christ. Boy, are they in for a surprise! His whole "messianic" agenda, his bloodlines (Pharaohs), his involvement in the occult, the fact that they planned his conception and birth, his speech about being the only god and quoting from a book about that kind of stuff, it all proves that he is the final antichrist. Connect all the dots and what do you find out? That it's all part of the same thing. It all fits... The whole "Maitreya" thing was only a distraction... to keep us busy from looking under the surface... He's the final antichrist. It's him, Thomas. Him and no one else. It all fits. He's the one who will sit in the temple of Solomon. Wanna bet that no other "candidat" fulfill all the requirements? It's a red alert. Tell the Watchmen, tell everyone and as fast as you can...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYKWcqh2-V4&feature=related

Oh, damn...

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/2008/01/obama-to-disciples-you-will-experience.html

"Reading the recent flurry of stories about Barack Obama--the Clinton-slayer! the youth candidate! the next Kennedy!--it'd be easy to imagine that his campaign is all inspiration and little perspiration at this point, with rainbows and starshine bursting from the tailpipe of his tour bus. Obama both lampoons and slyly encourages the perception. In New Hampshire and South Carolina, for example, the senator was fond of telling audiences that "at some point in the evening, a light is going to shine down and you will have an epiphany and you'll say, 'I have to vote for Barack."

What some people have to say about him:

"Obama is, of course, greater than Jesus."

-- Politiken (Danish newspaper)

"No one saw him coming, and Christians believe God comes at us from strange angles and places we don't expect, like Jesus being born in a manger."

--Lawrence Carter

"Many even see in Obama a messiah-like figure, a great soul, and some affectionately call him Mahatma Obama."

-- Dinesh Sharma

"We just like to say his name. We are considering taking it as a mantra."

-- Chicago] Sun-Times

"A Lightworker -- An Attuned Being with Powerful Luminosity and High-Vibration Integrity who will actually help usher in a New Way of Being"

-- Mark Morford

"What Barack Obama has accomplished is the single most extraordinary event that has occurred in the 232 years of the nation's political history"

-- Jesse Jackson, Jr.

"This was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."

-- Barack Obama

"Does it not feel as if some special hand is guiding Obama on his journey, I mean, as he has said, the utter improbability of it all?"

-- Daily Kos

"He communicates God-like energy..."

-- Steve Davis (Charleston, SC)

"Not just an ordinary human being but indeed an Advanced Soul"

-- Commentator @ Chicago Sun Times

"I'll do whatever he says to do. I'll collect paper cups off the ground to make his pathway clear."

-- Halle Berry

"A quantum leap in American consciousness"

-- Deepak Chopra

"He is not operating on the same plane as ordinary politicians. . . . the agent of transformation in an age of revolution, as a figure uniquely qualified to open the door to the 21st century."

-- Gary Hart

"Barack Obama is our collective representation of our purest hopes, our highest visions and our deepest knowings . . . He's our product out of the all-knowing quantum field of intelligence."

-- Eve Konstantine

"This is bigger than Kennedy. . . . This is the New Testament." | "I felt this thrill going up my leg. I mean, I don't have that too often. No, seriously. It's a dramatic event."

-- Chris Matthews

"[Obama is ] creative imagination which coupled with brilliance equals wisdom . . . [He is] the man for this time."

-- Toni Morrison

"Obama's finest speeches do not excite. They do not inform. They don't even really inspire. They elevate. . . . He is not the Word made flesh, but the triumph of word over flesh . . . Obama is, at his best, able to call us back to our highest selves."

-- Ezra Klein

"Obama has the capacity to summon heroic forces from the spiritual depths of ordinary citizens and to unleash therefrom a symphonic chorus of unique creative acts whose common purpose is to tame the soul and alleviate the great challenges facing mankind."

-- Gerald Campbell

"We're here to evolve to a higher plane . . . he is an evolved leader . . . [he] has an ear for eloquence and a Tongue dipped in the Unvarnished Truth."

-- Oprah Winfrey

"I would characterize the Senate race as being a race where Obama was, let's say, blessed and highly favored. That's not routine. There's something else going on. I think that Obama, his election to the Senate, was divinely ordered. . . . I know that that was God's plan."

-- Bill Rush

Ugh! The cult of Obama. This is sickening and utter heresy... Those people are so brainwashed... I think I'm gonna be sick...

2 Peter cp 2 and Jude 1:9 make it very clear that we have no power to rebuke Satan and that even the Angels of God say, "THE LORD REBUKE THEE." May the Lord bring us all to humble ourselves before Him...

I have to go. I have other friends to warn. Take care of yourself, beloved brother and God bless you.

love,

Michelle." 

So, after careful and serious examination of all this, do you guys still think that "conspiracy theorists" are nutcases?

About some of my previous posts, I'm really sorry about that. But some of the things that some people have posted really helped. Especially what Nathan said about types and shadows and parables. Seems like there's a lot of symbology and metaphore in the Bible. The problem is I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for years. I've been a victim of the traditions of men, doctrines of demons and false belief. I've been a victim of Fundamentalism, legalism and literalism. No wonder I'm so screwed up. And now, I'm a Christian Universalist because Jesus gave me that revelation of truth and led me there. But I'm caught between who I was and who I am. When you have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for several years, your have been programmed. Programmed to think what you think, to always do things the same way. You just keep repeating the same mistakes, always do things the same way. Do you know the saying: "The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results?" You can bet your bottom dollar that the one who said this has been in a cult. I've been experiencing this so I know what I'm talking about. I just keep catching myself taking all scriptures literally over and over, expecting different results. I've been endoctrinated and brainwashed for several years, programmed to do that. By the Catholic church, but especially by my Fundy friend. But it's not his fault. He only did to me what has been done to him, only teaching what he's been taught. This is the sad truth, James. Fundies and all those people are victims and they won't wake up until God wakes them up. We can preach the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to people, but they won't wake up until God wakes them up and then, and only then, will they start to understand the truth Gospel. But we can trust God, that He will remove the veil from their spiritual eyes. The ones who will be saved in this life, anyway. Gary said that most people will NOT be saved in this life.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-refuted.htm

"At present, our Father is calling out a people among the Gentiles to be joined with a people called out of Israel of old who will become a many-membered Body of Christ who will one day set all creation free from its bondage to corruption. To enter Christ's Body, one must be born from above. Most people will NOT be born from above in this lifetime, they will be called by the Word of God, Jesus at a later time. But as sure as Jesus is both the Lord of the living AND THE DEAD and as sure as He has the keys to both Death and Hell/hades, all of those who died in Adam (which is all humanity) will be made alive in Christ. The grave does not stop the One who has all power and authority. When Jesus' enemies are destroyed, the last one being death, then Jesus will gather all mankind and deliver it to God the Father that our Father may be "all in all." (1 Cor. 15:22-28)"

Once Jesus has removed the veil covering their spiritual eyes, then they will understand the Gospel we have preached to them. I keep hoping that at least some of my famiy members will be saved in this life, because I have no one outside the Internet to share this with. My grandfather and sister both are unbelievers. As for my mother, she is an idolatrous Catholic and a fake one at that. She completely rejects the Bible, saying it's a bunch of man-made lies to control the masses, she has horoscope books and a tarot deck. And she is for divorce, abortion, and gay marriage. She doesn't believe in the resurrection, Jesus' sacrifice and eternal life. For her, it's a only a beautiful lie to make life in this world more bearable. But she prays to Mary and dead saints. Yeah, go figure. She thinks there's nothing after death, but she prays to the dead. God clearly forbids communication with the dead, that includes praying to them which is idolatry and spiritism. People, like the first Christian Universalists did, can pray FOR the dead, but not TO the dead. The dead can't even hear the living. They are not divine. Once you have crossed over, you are completely cut off from this world. And God doesn't let the resting spirits (in Sheol) wander this world since they are in a better one. They will be in that place of rest until Jesus let them out. Now I don't exactly know how this works, but many supposed that the souls will remain in Sheol until Judgment Day, on which people will start undergoing their chastisement and refining in the LOF. But all the so-called spirits of the dead that wander this world and interact with the living are nothing but evil spirits posing as family members, friends and acquitances, sometimes strangers. You can read the medium, ouija board, channeling (true) stories. In many of them, people end up being deceived, attacked, oppressed, sometimes even killed by evil spirits. The worse kind of catastrophees befall them. God forbid attempts to communicate with the dead for a good reason, for the good of His children. I've been attacked and oppressed by evil spirits countless times in my past, I know what I'm talking about. If you know what's good for you, you'll stay away from that stuff...

As I said earlier, sorry about some of my previous posts. I'm praying to Jesus, asking Him to deprogram me from all the crap that has been loaded into me by the church and the Fundies, asking Him to remind me not to take all scriptures literally, to open my spiritual eyes to the spiritual meanings in the scriptures and to bring more healing into my life. I even asked Him to will a desire in my heart to completely quit smoking, to make cigarette look, smell and taste disgusting to me. I've read all the poasts in my thread and I'm very grateful that people have showed me my errors and gave some good advices. I don't know how long it'll take and how hard it's going to be, but I'm determined to change. With the grace of God, I will make serious progress, you have my word.         

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.     

I committed a terrible sin and that didn't help at all. Anything can be an idol to us if we put it before God in our lives. And I have put the doctrine of UR before God. I've spent nearly all my time studying UR material, reading articles, watching videos, completely fascinated with the Victorious Gospel of Love. I've been so busy with the doctrine that I have seriously neglected my relationship with the Lord and my prayer life. I overreacted. For many years, I've been taught that my family and I and nearly 99% of mankind was gonna roast in hell for all eternity or be separated from God forever. So, when God led me to UR, I became so amazed and fascinated by the doctrine and the material that I let it completely take over my life, to the point where I seriously neglected my relationship with Him and my prayer life. I seriously neglected Bible study as well. In fact, I have seriously neglected everything in my spiritual life in the last two weeks. I have dabbled in the occult for three years in my teenagehood and worshipped false gods. That's the second time I commit the sin of idolatry. I feel like slapping myself repeatedly in the forehead. Will I ever learn? This is so frustrating, no enraging. I just keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again and I'm not even aware of it, until it's too late and all this because I've been endoctrinated, brainwashed and programmed. I just hate this. I'm not even aware of it. It became automatic. Am I just a slave to my religious conditioning? I just can't keep going around committing that type of sin again. I'm gonna ask God to show me mistakes and to help me not to repeat them again, to warn me when I'm about to commit one of those mistakes either through endoctrination or learned behavior so that I can caught and stop myself with his help before it happens. And people on the board have been providing me with good advices, especially Nathan. He's right. So I decided to confess my fault to you, guys and admit it. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm really ashamed of myself for committing that sin, but not to the point where I won't confess my fault to others and admit it. That would just be another mistake. If many people would just confess their faults to others like Paul and the other apostles did back then, instead of letting shame or pride get in the way, they would get very helpful advices and encouragements. And I know that's what I will find on this board. If I don't understand something, I will ask questions and listen to the answers instead of judging what I don't understand, getting angry and losing patience. I will also listen to advices and ask the Lord for HIS discernment so that I will know which ones to follow. I will save a copy of this message in my computer so that I can reread it when necessary and keep my objectives in mind. Prayers are much needed and most welcome. Also, any suggestion or advice on "how to deprogram yourself from religious brainwashing, false teachings and the resulting bad habits that come with those" is most welcome. That would help a lot. Thanks and God bless you, brother.

I love you all, brothers and sisters in Christ. Take care and God bless you all. :HeartThrob: :cloud9:       

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 16, 2011, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 05:18:40 AM

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles.

Yeah, that is exactly what the people who you are mad at will tell you too. And that is my point,  you are only railing against what is convenient for you to do so about.  You are only stirring up whats in the same religious box and hoping it comes out in a pattern that lets you feel good about it.

You want scriptures? I'll give you scriptures. And from many different Bibles:

Old Testament:

Leviticus 18:22:

NASB - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Amplified Bible - You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.

NLT - Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.

KJV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

ESV - You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Contemporary English Bible - It is disgusting for a man to have sex with another man.

NKJV - You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

New Century Version - You must not have sexual relations with a man as you would a woman. That is a hateful sin.

God's Word Translation - Never have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman. It is disgusting.

21 Century KJV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination.

ASV - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

YLT - And with a male thou dost not lie as one lieth with a woman; abomination it [is].

Darby Translation - And thou shalt not lie with mankind as one lieth with a woman: it is an abomination.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman; it is detestable.

Let's not twist the words in that one. That's homosexuality He's talking about, not just lying on the same bed...

Leviticus 20:13:

KJV - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

NKJV - If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

NASB - If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Amplified Bible - If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

NLT - If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

ESV - If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Contemporary english Bible - It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve.

New Century Version - If a man has sexual relations with another man as a man does with a woman, these two men have done a hateful sin. They must be put to death. They have brought it on themselves.

God's Word Translation - When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

21 Century KJV - If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

ASV - And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

YLT - And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood [is] on them.

Darby Translation - And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - And if a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall certainly be put to death; their blood is upon them.

New Testament:

1 Timothy 1:9-10:

NASB - realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Amplified Bible - Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers, (For) impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine,

Those who abuse themselves with men, or, those who abuse themseklves with mankind, or, that defile themselves with mankind = homosexuals.

NLT - We know that the law is good when used correctly. For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching,

KJV - Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

ESV - understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

Contemporary English Version - We also understand that it wasn't given to control people who please God, but to control lawbreakers, criminals, godless people, and sinners. It is for wicked and evil people, and for murderers, who would even kill their own parents. The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won't tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching,

NKJV - knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

Sodomites = homosexuals.

New Century Bible - We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are sinful, who are unholy and ungodly, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex, who sell slaves, who tell lies, who speak falsely, and who do anything against the true teaching of God.

Common English Bible - We understand this: the Law isn't established for a righteous person but for people who live without laws and without obeying any authority. They are the ungodly and the sinners. They are people who are not spiritual, and nothing is sacred to them. They kill their fathers and mothers, and murder others. 10 They are people who are sexually unfaithful, and people who have intercourse with the same sex. They are kidnappers, liars, individuals who give false testimonies in court, and those who do anything else that is opposed to sound teaching.

God's Word Translation - For example, a person must realize that laws are not intended for people who have God's approval. Laws are intended for lawbreakers and rebels, for ungodly people and sinners, for those who think nothing is holy or sacred, for those who kill their fathers, their mothers, or other people. 10Laws are intended for people involved in sexual sins, for homosexuals, for kidnappers, for liars, for those who lie when they take an oath, and for whatever else is against accurate teachings.

21 Century KJV - knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for those who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.

ASV - as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for abusers of themselves with men, for menstealers, for liars, for false swearers, and if there be any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine;

YLT - having known this, that for a righteous man law is not set, but for lawless and insubordinate persons, ungodly and sinners, impious and profane, parricides and matricides, men-slayers, whoremongers, sodomites, men-stealers, liars, perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that to sound doctrine is adverse,

Darby Translation - knowing this, that law has not its application to a righteous person, but to [the] lawless and insubordinate, to [the] impious and sinful, to [the] unholy and profane, to smiters of fathers and smiters of mothers; to murderers, fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers; and if any other thing is opposed to sound teaching,

Holman Christian Standard Bible - We know that the law is not meant for a righteous person, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and irreverent, for those who kill their fathers and mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral and homosexuals, for kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and for whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching,

I also suggest you look up 1 Corinthians 6:9 in a dozen of different versions. And 1 Corinthians 6:9. 

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do not be deceived; Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate and homosexuals shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9

Romans 1:25-28: Their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own body the due penalty of their error. (AIDS) Romans 1:25-28

You shall NOT lie with a male as one lies with a female: It is an ABOMINATION. The land has become DEFILED, therefore I have visited its punishment upon it so The land will spill out its inhabitants. - Leviticus 18

In Romans 1:26-28, Paul clearly describes homosexuality as the final stage of man's depravity. Of course, it has probably always existed, but it is now pervasive,
on a broad societal scale probably unprecedented in history.

It's a disgusting and hateful abomination in the eyes of God. He doesn't hate the sinners, but he hates the sins. Homosexuality is a satanic perversion. God didn't create people like that. It's caused by demonic possession, demonic influence and/or rebellion and disobedience. As for the unsaved, they are totally spiritually blind and dead, slaves to sin and Satan. God considers it sexual immorality and those who are sexually immoral will undergo a severe chastisement in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). I sure hope it's clear to everyone here that God condemn homosexuality. God created man for woman and woman for man. For familiy and conception of children. Look up all those verses in dozens of different Bibles and see for yourself. The YLT is one of the most accurate Bible when it comes to rendering the Greek and Hebrew. And there are dozens of other Bibles too. In the Bible, Jesus and Paul warn people not to cause other people to stumble and fall. Those who are saved can go to Him for forgiveness upon repentance. He will work in them so that they will feel sorry for what they did and and cure them. Nothing is impossible to God. He will not only forgive the homosexual, He will cure him/her like He did many. I suffered from that kind of attraction years ago and He cured me, He cured lots of them. As for the unsaved, God will eventually save them and work in them to cure them of that sin, just like He heal so many people of so many things. Nothing is impossible to Him. He doesn't hate the sinners, but He hates the sin. So those of you who have been defending the sin of homosexuality on ground of tolerance or for any other reason at all should repent and start preaching the truth about it. It's sin and disobedience... It's of the devil...

The bottom line is, there is no explicit reason in the Bible for why its wrong. It just says- very clearly- that it is an "abomination".

When we start throwing in our own rationalizations for WHY why we think God feels that way about this or any other sin, its just a pointless circular debate that never gets solved. Humans are flawed and can be wrong, God's Word is always true. So we are to take the Bible word on it. And really, we arent in the position to try and justify God's commands. He said not to do it. 

The *justification* you are looking for, is that God said it was wrong. End of story.

I'm like you, Michelle, in that I'm having to rethink things that I thought were fundamental truths; this is not limited to the questions of universal reconciliation that we debate here. As an example, as I understand it, the word translated "abomination" means something made ritually unclean according to the Old Testament's Holiness Code and it also included things like eating certain foods and wearing garments made of more than one type of material; I am not convinced these are disgusting and hateful in the eyes of God.

On a practical note, I don't know how to stop my post being too wide for the page and apologise to those now needing to scroll sideways.  :mblush: Edited to add that now it's posted it seems ok...  :dontknow:

I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

I leave the OT laws out of the discussion, at least partly due to context, the situation/relationship between God and Israel at that time.  I focus on the New Testament in this area, where IMO, Apostle Paul still makes it very clear to the ecclesia in the current "church" age. Personally my stance is this, from an earlier post;

"I am aware of the arguments over the words, including by the (what I consider) very suspect "Jesus Seminar" folks.  Based on what I've personally seen and studied (limited, I'm no scholar) I believe the translations of the following words  actually are accurate - not just the words themselves, but within a larger context of other scriptures, such as the few lines I end the post with -


I'll post the words and translations, but then also say that even without the specific words in question, the NT also defines the situation in other words -

The words and their references;

"Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "the words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

Who of us has not fallen into one of the categories listed below?

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do they all not have the same fate?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 17, 2011, 09:11:42 PM
..the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do they all not have the same fate?

If thought through a little more, I don't think you really mean "so live like you want, no matter what the scriptures teach us".

Yes, we will all be cleansed.  In the meantime, "to whom much is given, much is required".


And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required... Luke 12:47,48

(J. Preston Eby, Lake of Fire)   "There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually."

Blessings.

Quote from: Lefein on March 16, 2011, 06:18:47 AM
Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

No James, I am referring to Matthew 7:3.

OK, thanks.  Interesting, Matthew 7:5 as well;   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."   I'm never that "good", so sometimes I try to share and then let God do the rest.

Maybe someone is judging, I don't know.  It is a balance between believing what the scriptures say and sharing with others, while remembering to love and not condemn or judge at the same time.  Probably something most struggle with, in one way or another.  I  often don't recognize it, and it's ironic how we're so apt to not recognize it in ourselves.

Not judging doesn't negate what the rest of the scriptures teach us as well.  If so, it seems maybe Apostle Paul and Mr. Eby are both judging - which I personally don't think they are, or at the very least, they're judging righteously (their log removed).  IMO, sharing it in love is key, and being a very flawed individual, it's something I often fail at, yet aspire to do.  Baby/bathwater...it's a challenge.

Peace.

Quote
I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

Quote from: jabcat on March 17, 2011, 08:59:52 PM
IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

Yes. I too am aware of the danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater but am also challenged in many areas to think it possible that I may be mistaken.

Thank you, James, I found the whole of your post very interesting and will be looking at what you say in my studies of these words.

 :bigGrin:    I'll say it again - it's a challenge.  I've swung back and forth on some things since God showed me UR, etc.  Sometimes going too far, getting my spanking,  being led by the hand back to something, while sometimes away from something else.   

There's a saying that tickles my funny bone.  "I don't want to become so open-minded that my brains fall out".   

Do you think that's different than having a hole in one's head?    :wink3:

http://www.millettephotomedia.com/en/pics/474_hemerocallis_woman_at_the_well_%28daylily%29_0267.html

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 18, 2011, 12:28:14 AM



No James, I am referring to Matthew 7:3.

Okay, what does Matt.7:3 and 7:5 mean?

Mat 7:3  `And why dost thou behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, and the beam that is in thine own eye dost not consider?

Matthew 7:5 as well;   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."   I'm never that "good", so sometimes I try to share and then let God do the rest.

There is a mote or speck and a beam or a large piece of lumber. Which is worse off or is one not at bad?

Quote from: Lefein on March 18, 2011, 01:30:47 AM

Quote
I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

I hear ya Lefein.  I think what Michelle might not understand is that many of us are truly in love with Christ.  When someone you love is insulted it hurts.  So, I do get it.  What I know is this...her battle is not a knowledge or an understanding battle.  Though she might believe it is.  It's a trust and faith battle.  But, I have faith that God is doing a work and that Michelle will be brought into the fullness of his rest.  But, she isn't going down without a fight.   :laughing7:

Micah, finger-pointing at another person's sin only exemplifies the blindness to our own.

I've gone back and tried to find where anyone actually finger-pointed at anyone else's sin in this thread.  I didn't find that exactly (maybe there's been some "tone" issues).  I do see that some things have been stated as to what the scriptures say and how one interprets that;  which is not necessarily the same thing as "finger-pointing" or judging.  It can be, if it's done about a particular individual, especially in a condemning (not helping) manner.  But to point out and discuss what the scriptures say?  2 different things, IMO, though it can be a challenge to not have a judgemental, "wrong" attitude.    :2c:

Seems judging can also be making the judgment that others are judging, and then the other making the judgment that the other person's judging others as judging, ad infinitim... It's a tricky binezz.  :laughing7:

Boils down to none of us have stones to throw, but we also can discuss the scrips and what we think they mean.  :dontknow:

micah, attempting to address your Q;

It likely means more than this, something as you say, that some things are worse than others?  But I think at least it means, if I'm expressly pointing out your deficiencies, I most likely have my own as well – and maybe they're even worse.  Also, then that I need to address my own issues before I start telling you that you need to work on something – then I might legitimately help you with yours.  Still though, I believe with an attitude of trying to help rather then trying to "conquer".  I've done both.

However, that's why I say that I haven't ever "conquered" all my own issues, so the best I can really do is strive to share what I see in the scriptures, share what God may have shown me and helped me with or dealt with me about, then let Him do His work – and attempt to be led by the Spirit if I truly do need to act on something.  To me, it's not judging to share what the Word says, especially if done in a good attitude (which can be a challenge).  IMO, the judging comes in with condemning, just picking and finding fault, telling people they're in trouble with God, etc.  I believe if we're not careful, we can go too far one way or the other - so legalistic and condemning that we're judging, or, so "accepting" that we can't even state what the scriptures say (or be OK with anyone else doing it).  That's why I say it's a balance.  It's a tricky business, easily messed up.  I do it plenty. 


Going back and reading some of our own posts can be enlightening.  I need to do so again.


Well, carry on.  We'll be made perfect some day.

John 5:22;
...for neither doth the Father judge any one, but all the judgment He hath given to the Son


John 8:11;
...and Jesus said to her, "Neither do I pass sentence on thee;


Matthew 12: 37;
For each of you by his words shall be justified, or by his words shall be condemned.

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2011, 03:12:21 PM

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 10:09:04 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2011, 07:40:57 AM

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Michelle they are not.  This is talking about men and women.
Exodus 21:7-11

7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.



Numbers 31 is talking about the spoils of war.  'Keep [the female children] alive for yourselves.'  What does that mean?  That doesn't say anything about hurting or raping children.  It says to keep the innocent female children alive.  The phrase ['for yourselves'] is not even in the Hebrew.  They are allowed to take the innocent female children into the tribe.  This passage is cross referenced to Deut 21.  They marry women, Michelle, not children.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive [for yourselves]. <---- added by the translator of KJV



Here are the rules in Deuteronomy on treating captives.  There's nothing here about taking children for wives, Michelle.  If they are treating women captives this well, what would make you think they would hurt children?



Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Marrying Female Captives
10"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

That's what I was talking about. How am I supposed to trust any of the english translations when they are so full of "mistranslanted words"? Like the ET doctrine? For all I know, those weren't "mistranslated words", but deliberate sabotage, Bible perversion, lies to support some hideous traditions of men and doctrines of demons. The whole ET doctrine is way too evil to be "mistranslated words", to be a simple mistakes. Jesus and the apostles spoke Hebrew and Greek. And all english Bibles have been perverted in some ways. Like the Bibles that have anything to do with Wescott and Hort (two occultists, they contributed  to the infamous NIV Bible too), the Bibles that attack or denying the deity of Christ in many ways, one of them being saying that everything was made "THROUGH" Him, instead of "BY" Him. Jesus is God in the flesh. Everything was made BY Him and not THROUGH Him. And what about all the modern versions? Several verses have been removed. Many words too and I'm not talking about minor corrections here. I'm talking about words like "Christ", "Lord", "blood", "repent" and "worship". Robbing Jesus of worship. And important passages like: "The earth is the Lord's", "Get thee behind me, Satan!", "Thou shall not bear false witnesses" and many others. The modern versions attack the virgin birth, the blood atonement, the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, the second coming and even in some modern versions (NIV, NASB, TNIV, ESV, HCSB, NRSV), turn the Lord's prayer into a prayer to Satan. What does that tell you about Wescott & Hort? And I'm not even talking about the NIV calling Satan the Morning Star instead of the son of the Morning. That was to make people believe that Jesus and Satan are one and the same. Did you know that in many modern versions, that passage about fasting has been removed? Jesus said that some demons are so tough that they can only go out by prayer AND FASTING. Now why would anyone remove that part unless those that have tampered with the scriptures don't want us to get rid of the tougher demons? Just give me a good reason to ever trust any of the english translation.

Who is Jesus? Who is satan?

Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star

satan is son of the morning.

The KJV and the NKJV are consistant in this.

KJV
Isaiah 14:12
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

KJV
Revelation 22:16
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

NKJV
Isaiah 14 NKJV
12 " How you are fallen from heaven,  O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

NKJV
Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star

But lets see how the NIV calls satan and Jesus.

NIV
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

NIV
Revelation 22:16
16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

The NIV calls both Jesus and satan the Morning Star. I wonder what kind of occultists use this scripture to indoctrinate their initiates into thinking Jesus and satan are one and the same being? What I know is that it is sickening and utter heresy. What does that tell you about Wescott & Hort? The NIV is an abomination and I wouldn't touch a NIV Bible with a ten foot pole. No true, self-respected Christian would ever use a NIV Bible, because, among other things, the name of Jesus has been removed in 38 places. Rupert Murdoch who owns the rights to the NIV Bible also owns the rights to the satanic bible and the publishing house of those two Bibles also owns the right to a book entitled: "The joy of gay sex." Murdoch has put the NIV under the same umbrella as the TV Guide, which he also owned. And he runs porn channels. The NIV is a total perversion...   

Now, that is a KJV only site and they are ET believers, but you can check their claims on the missing verses, ommitted words and corruption in the modern versions (forget the mistranslated words here, I'm talking about missing verses, important ommitted words such as ("God", "Christ", "Jesus", "worship", "blood", "repent", "fasting", etc) and important passages removed):

http://www.av1611.org/nkjv.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblecom.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblevs.html

http://www.av1611.org/biblewrd.html

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/worship_jesus.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/jesus_is_almighty_god.htm

Here we see clearly that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I John 5:7 reads as follows:

NIV- For there are three that testify:

NASV- And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

NWT- For there are three witness bearers,

KJV- For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Holy Ghost: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. (emphasis mine)

A direct attack on the Trinity, the Triune God. And if there is one things, one things ABOVE ALL ELSE that really, really INFURIATES ME, it's a direct attack on the Trinity, Molly... Nothing infuriates me more than that, NOTHING... I'm boiling and seething with rage...

Another example of perversion, in Revelation 1:8:

NIV- 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

NASV- "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

NWT- 8 "I am the Al'pha and the Omega," says Jehovah God, "the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." 11 saying: "What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations, in Ephesus and in Smyrna and in Pergamum and in Thyatira and in Sardis and in Philadelphia and in Laodicea."

KJV- 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (emphasis mine)

How about this?

1 Timothy 3:16

NIV- Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body,...

NASV- And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh,

NWT- Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: 'He was made manifest in flesh,...'

KJV- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,

Here it is easy to see why the Jehovah's Witnesses translated this verse as they did since they completely reject that Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh". It is quite shameful that the NIV and the NASV have followed along with this corrupt work in changing "God" to "He". Of course "He" appeared in a body, Paul appeared in a body, you appeared in a body, and I appeared in a body. The NIV and the NASV have completely changed the essence of this verse by translating it as "He". Despite the overwhelming manuscript evidence the NIV and the NASV alter their text to read "He".

Now we want to look at Phil. 2:6. This is a very familiar verse that should be well-known to most. Pay special attention to the wording of each Bible. (emphasis mine)

NIV- Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

NASV- who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

NWT- who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

KJV- Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Did Jesus consider Himself equal with God or not? Both cannot be correct! Here the NIV, NASV, and NWT all agree, however, they are in direct opposition to what the KJV says. The NIV, NASV, and NWT clearly contradict the teaching of the Trinity and negates much of the teaching of past church history. It is easy to see how and why the NWT does so but what about the NIV and NASV? Again we see that the NIV and the NASV side with the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible in detracting from the Deity of Christ.

Those are only a few examples...

I'm really sorry, guys. Okay? I'm really sorry. But when I see that, I just can't shut up. This is not merely mistranslated words, this is not just some mistakes. I had to say something, okay? I just had to, so don't shoot the messenger. Now, I know that the 1611 KJV is not perfect and without "errors". None of the english translations are... I'm going through a lot right now and when see these things just make me doubt the Bible more and more. Not because I think God is a liar. But because human translators can be. The ET doctrine was not the only bad thing that found its way into the english translations. If I knew a fast and easy way to learn Hebrew and Greek, I would do it. But from what I've heard, it takes years to learn those languages...

http://falseflags.wordpress.com/2009/12/22/were-westcott-and-hort-occultists/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101218132845AAnqkob

About Number 31:18, Molly, if "for yourself" was added by the KJV translators, how come those words are not in ITALIC? Another deception? And why killing the boys and sparing the girls? Here we go again. Paul is all about Misogyny in the NT and Moses is a sexist too! No child should ever be murdered! They only took them into the tribe because females can bear children. That's all the Bible and religion (especially catholism) is all about; women are child factories and children bearers, sexual objects and possessions. Kill all the male children. As if the lives of little boys worth less and were less important than the lives of little girls. It's all sexism again. It's all or nothing, no middle ground. Misogyny or sexism towards little boys. About Deuteronomy 21:10-14, you think those women were treated well? Did those women had a choice whether or not to marry those men or to have sexual intercourses with them? "Go in unto her" = taking her, sex. The woman clearly didn't have a choice. God doesn't mention her rights not once in the passage. He doesn't say that she can refuse and leave. She is taken captive, married and taken against her will and she doesn't have her say in the matter. Women shaving their hair and pailing their nails is utter misogyny and women abuse. People should decide for their own bodies. A woman who is shaved and her nailed taken off is clearly a victim of abuse. God is clearly saying that she is taken captive and cry the death of her mother and father, which clearly means that the man murdered her family or that the man's tribe murdered her family, and she has no choice but to live with the man and tribe who murdered her family. God condomn that woman being taken captive which means by force, against her will, dragged into the house and kept there against her will.. God says the man is to have sexual intercourse with her (going in unto her) and the passage clearly let you know that she can't refuse or walk away and leave. Then He says that if she is no longer pleasing or beautiful in his eyes, the man can just dump her like garbage. And whether the word "humbling" or "humiliating" is used here, it clearly means since she had no choice but to have sex with him, that he raped her. Which is clearly more of an humiliation than humbleness. God clearly say in that passage that if the man think that the woman is beautiful, he can just drag her to her house, keep her captive as a possession and take her by force. The woman has no choice, she can't refuse, cannot walk away, cannot leave. She is married and taken against her will and only the man is allowed to put her away, he has all rights and she has none. God is clearly saying that the woman has no right. How about woman have to marry their rapists? Can't women just decide whether they want to marry or not and who they want to marry and decide if they want to have sex or not? Why do God creates human beings and don't let them decide whether or not they want do these things? And what about Paul who says a woman's body belongs to her husband and the other way around? Can't people just decide for their own bodies? Their bodies are theirs and theirs alone and no one else's. Nothing justifies forced marriage and rape. Nothing justifies taking someone by force, violating and sullying someone, invading their bodies. Absolutely nothing. Women are sentient beings, not objects, possessions and child factories. They have a right to say no and walk away. Paul's teachings and the catholic church caused a great deal of damage to women, because the church forced them to have children by the dozens and threatened them of excommunication and eternal torment. And they condemn birth control and that is why there is so much poverty on this planet and why so many children sufferd from being neglected and malnutrition...

:sigh: Even the 1611 KJV is unreliable... My whole world is falling apart... Why did God had that Bible sent to me and why did He let me believe the gross, evil ET lie for so many years? Why did He allow all those people to get to my mind, to indoctrinate and brainwash me? Bibles translated by occultists or New Age movement, Bibles that attack the deity of Christ and the Trinity, Hellfire Bibles... Is there a single thing in the universe that isn't actually a lie? Is my whole life from birth to now nothing but a lie? I'm caught between reading my Bible or throwing it out of the window, trapped between  who I was and who I am. "The 1611 KJV is the only inspired and innerant Word of God." What a joke... All those Bible "errors" and all those things that cause me to question all of my beliefs is driving me crazy. I am SO TIRED of feeling DESTABILIZED...

I suggest we take this to the PMs, Molly. Let's just take it to the PMs...   

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 18, 2011, 05:12:55 AM



Micah, finger-pointing at another person's sin only exemplifies the blindness to our own.

Well, Glory Halleujha! You got it! Glory glory glory!!!!  I thank you my friend, not many see that.

Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2011, 05:47:23 AM
micah, attempting to address your Q;

It likely means more than this, something as you say, that some things are worse than others?  But I think at least it means, if I'm expressly pointing out your deficiencies, I most likely have my own as well – and maybe they're even worse.  Also, then that I need to address my own issues before I start telling you that you need to work on something – then I might legitimately help you with yours.  Still though, I believe with an attitude of trying to help rather then trying to "conquer".  I've done both.

However, that's why I say that I haven't ever "conquered" all my own issues, so the best I can really do is strive to share what I see in the scriptures, share what God may have shown me and helped me with or dealt with me about, then let Him do His work – and attempt to be led by the Spirit if I truly do need to act on something.  To me, it's not judging to share what the Word says, especially if done in a good attitude (which can be a challenge).  IMO, the judging comes in with condemning, just picking and finding fault, telling people they're in trouble with God, etc.  I believe if we're not careful, we can go too far one way or the other - so legalistic and condemning that we're judging, or, so "accepting" that we can't even state what the scriptures say (or be OK with anyone else doing it).  That's why I say it's a balance.  It's a tricky business, easily messed up.  I do it plenty. 


Going back and reading some of our own posts can be enlightening.  I need to do so again.


Well, carry on.  We'll be made perfect some day.

I want this to be modest, Jabcat you did well, you discerned and answered well, you saw it all. You deserve your post. I love you my friend. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Miriam on March 17, 2011, 01:59:53 AM

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 06:11:19 AM
I need the most accurate translations, as exactly rendered as possible.

The Young's Literal translation, which a number of people here use, is available online:

http://online-bible-study.net/youngs-literal-online-bible/

*Sulking* The YLT says that the Word was TOWARDS God instead of WITH GOD and calls the living Word who became flesh a IT instead of a HE. Jesus is a PERSON, not a IT. Can you believe that some Bibles call the Holy Spirit a IT? Including the freaking-so-called-inerrant-Word-of-God 1611 KJV...

Michelle, you aren't going to get a perfect translation.  They simply don't exist.

But if it helps you - for the Old Testament at least, take a look at The Septuagint, there are English translations of it though they use the words "for ever" and "everlasting" but that shouldn't be too difficult to deal with if your faith is in God, not a book.

Quote from: jabcat on March 17, 2011, 08:59:52 PM
I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

I leave the OT laws out of the discussion, at least partly due to context, the situation/relationship between God and Israel at that time.  I focus on the New Testament in this area, where IMO, Apostle Paul still makes it very clear to the ecclesia in the current "church" age. Personally my stance is this, from an earlier post;

"I am aware of the arguments over the words, including by the (what I consider) very suspect "Jesus Seminar" folks.  Based on what I've personally seen and studied (limited, I'm no scholar) I believe the translations of the following words  actually are accurate - not just the words themselves, but within a larger context of other scriptures, such as the few lines I end the post with -


I'll post the words and translations, but then also say that even without the specific words in question, the NT also defines the situation in other words -

The words and their references;

"Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "the words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

I must agree.  I think this starts from realizing we all have our struggles.  Some of us battle with lust, addiction, gossip, grumbling, lying, homosexual attractions etc.  In that realization, we can offer our hand in brotherly/sisterly love to those who also struggle with homosexuality.  But, loving the person doesn't mean we have to accept the practices of homosexuality.  Scipture states it is clearly sin, and taking that stance isn't judgmental. 

But, where I believe the church can sometimes fail is taking an either/or approach to homosexuals who might enter their doors.  Either they are shunned and beat with doctrine and threats, or they are told ehh it's ok God loves you anyway.  While I believe God loves all of mankind, including homosexuals, adulterers, murders, liars, gossipers, etc...I also believe he loves us enough to change us if we are willing to seek his face.

I have a genetic predispostion towards obsessive compulsive behaviors, which when misdirected can lead to addiction.  That was my lot, one of the many things within myself that needed to be put to death.  I don't believe homosexuality is any different.  God has the capacity to change a person including their sexual appetites and attractions.

Quote from: MichelleAbout Number 31:18, Molly, if "for yourself" was added by the KJV translators, how come those words are not in ITALIC? Another deception? And why killing the boys and sparing the girls? Here we go again. Paul is all about Misogyny in the NT and Moses is a sexist too! No child should ever be murdered! They only took them into the tribe because females can bear children. That's all the Bible and religion (especially catholism) is all about; women are child factories and children bearers, sexual objects and possessions. Kill all the male children. As if the lives of little boys worth less and were less important than the lives of little girls. It's all sexism again. It's all or nothing, no middle ground. Misogyny or sexism towards little boys. About Deuteronomy 21:10-14, you think those women were treated well? Did those women had a choice whether or not to marry those men or to have sexual intercourses with them? "Go in unto her" = taking her, sex. The woman clearly didn't have a choice. God doesn't mention her rights not once in the passage. He doesn't say that she can refuse and leave. She is taken captive, married and taken against her will and she doesn't have her say in the matter. Women shaving their hair and pailing their nails is utter misogyny and women abuse. People should decide for their own bodies. A woman who is shaved and her nailed taken off is clearly a victim of abuse. God is clearly saying that she is taken captive and cry the death of her mother and father, which clearly means that the man murdered her family or that the man's tribe murdered her family, and she has no choice but to live with the man and tribe who murdered her family. God condomn that woman being taken captive which means by force, against her will, dragged into the house and kept there against her will.. God says the man is to have sexual intercourse with her (going in unto her) and the passage clearly let you know that she can't refuse or walk away and leave. Then He says that if she is no longer pleasing or beautiful in his eyes, the man can just dump her like garbage. And whether the word "humbling" or "humiliating" is used here, it clearly means since she had no choice but to have sex with him, that he raped her. Which is clearly more of an humiliation than humbleness. God clearly say in that passage that if the man think that the woman is beautiful, he can just drag her to her house, keep her captive as a possession and take her by force. The woman has no choice, she can't refuse, cannot walk away, cannot leave. She is married and taken against her will and only the man is allowed to put her away, he has all rights and she has none. God is clearly saying that the woman has no right. How about woman have to marry their rapists? Can't women just decide whether they want to marry or not and who they want to marry and decide if they want to have sex or not? Why do God creates human beings and don't let them decide whether or not they want do these things? And what about Paul who says a woman's body belongs to her husband and the other way around? Can't people just decide for their own bodies? Their bodies are theirs and theirs alone and no one else's. Nothing justifies forced marriage and rape. Nothing justifies taking someone by force, violating and sullying someone, invading their bodies. Absolutely nothing. Women are sentient beings, not objects, possessions and child factories. They have a right to say no and walk away. Paul's teachings and the catholic church caused a great deal of damage to women, because the church forced them to have children by the dozens and threatened them of excommunication and eternal torment. And they condemn birth control and that is why there is so much poverty on this planet and why so many children sufferd from being neglected and malnutrition...

Even the 1611 KJV is unreliable... My whole world is falling apart... Why did God had that Bible sent to me and why did He let me believe the gross, evil ET lie for so many years? Why did He allow all those people to get to my mind, to indoctrinate and brainwash me? Bibles translated by occultists or New Age movement, Bibles that attack the deity of Christ and the Trinity, Hellfire Bibles... Is there a single thing in the universe that isn't actually a lie? Is my whole life from birth to now nothing but a lie? I'm caught between reading my Bible or throwing it out of the window, trapped between  who I was and who I am. "The 1611 KJV is the only inspired and innerant Word of God." What a joke... All those Bible "errors" and all those things that cause me to question all of my beliefs is driving me crazy. I am SO TIRED of feeling DESTABILIZED...

I suggest we take this to the PMs, Molly. Let's just take it to the PMs...   

Michelle, download E-Sword and look for yourself at the Greek and Hebrew words.  Nobody is trying to deceive you.  A lot of discretion is always left to the translators of any document.  One has to hope they have input from the Holy Spirit for the Bible.  Some might have personal agendas.  But you can translate it for yourself in these last days.

God was taking a people out of barbarism  and setting them aside for himself when he chose the Hebrews.   So it doesn't please you that he ordered them to treat the women captives well because that meant forcing them into marriage?  Compared to what?  What do barbarians do to women in your experience?  Even in this country women have only had the vote for some 90 years.  That's a lifetime to some.  What happens to women in other countries even today?

You need to slow down and use Jesus as your foundation.  The risen Christ presented himself first to women--that is how much he esteems women.  That's all you need to know.

I don't do pm's.  Too hard for me.  But, you see one thing that sets you off and it's off to the races.  Slow down and trust God.

Molly said, "Slow down and trust God".

Amen.  That word isn't just for Michelle.  I needed a bit of that myself. 

Hi Michelle,

I don't have the perfect answer for you because YES, the OT is filled with violence and barbary and we often believe that everything which is in there or which is done by godly men are from God.
I don't believe that is true and I also believe that you have to see the whole counsel of God in this matter because things he first asked, He later dismissed.
The law of Moises is what it is, the law of Moises, it is NOT the law of God, it is not the perfection of human morale, it is the showcasing of human wickedness.
That is what the whole Bible is all about, showing the true violence in the human heart.

At least that is what I believe, after having read the work of men like Rene Girard and Mark Heim.

They explain that religious history of other people on the earth is always taught in myth where violence is embellished or hidden, but the Bible is different, violence is shown in all it's disgusting presence and serious sins are present even in the most godly men.
They go on to tell us that it is this same violence which is shown and specifically the passion story presented in full gore and suffering that makes us disgusted by all the blatant injustice and obvious brutality.

I don't have the verse here but I think that in Ezekiel, there is a part where God says that it was to horrify Israel that He asked for the to sacrifice their firstborns.

The times where we believe God is changing His mind is really parts where he is trying the hearts of men.

Jesus brought a new commandment, which makes us righteous to all the others: Love God and Love your neighbors.
This was where all the violence has been leading us to.

So what I think is that you're not in a doubting process but on the RIGHT TRACK, keep searching God, our gracious and loving Father!

:HeartThrob:
:happygrin:

Quote from: shawn on March 18, 2011, 06:34:35 PM

Quote from: jabcat on March 17, 2011, 08:59:52 PM
I have already had this discussion several times, and often it seems we often go away still seeing it as we already did.  However, I know God can and does change our heart and thoughts as we seek Him and He seeks us ("draw near to God and He will draw near to you"  James. 4:8).   In the end it probably does little good to really argue about topics such as this - state our beliefs, our thoughts, what we see, then let God do the rest.

"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

IMO, coming into an understanding of UR (and other deep things of God) does include re-thinking many things.  However, as I've witnessed, I believe we need to beware of the danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater", i.e., throwing out everything just for the sake of "changing", going from orthodoxy to "whatever". 

Mostly, if we pray, stay close to God, stay in the Word, and let it change us rather than attempting to change it, the Spirit will lead us into truth. 

Blessings, James.

I must agree.  I think this starts from realizing we all have our struggles.  Some of us battle with lust, addiction, gossip, grumbling, lying, homosexual attractions etc.  In that realization, we can offer our hand in brotherly/sisterly love to those who also struggle with homosexuality.  But, loving the person doesn't mean we have to accept the practices of homosexuality.  Scipture states it is clearly sin, and taking that stance isn't judgmental. 

But, where I believe the church can sometimes fail is taking an either/or approach to homosexuals who might enter their doors.  Either they are shunned and beat with doctrine and threats, or they are told ehh it's ok God loves you anyway.  While I believe God loves all of mankind, including homosexuals, adulterers, murders, liars, gossipers, etc...I also believe he loves us enough to change us if we are willing to seek his face.

I have a genetic predispostion towards obsessive compulsive behaviors, which when misdirected can lead to addiction.  That was my lot, one of the many things within myself that needed to be put to death.  I don't believe homosexuality is any different.  God has the capacity to change a person including their sexual appetites and attractions.

Amen Shawn.   Sin is sin.  If done in the right attitude, I believe we need to hear what the scriptures have to say about it.  IMO, it's one part of the salt and light.   I have much of my own, and we all have brokenness that needs to be fixed.   :2c:

Quote from: Michelle on March 17, 2011, 04:44:46 PMAlso, any suggestion or advice on "how to deprogram yourself from religious brainwashing, false teachings and the resulting bad habits that come with those" is most welcome. That would help a lot. Thanks and God bless you, brother. 

Stop visiting BBQ sites for a while. Read positive articles/books and do wordstudies. Knowledge if power and your armor against wacko teachings.

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 10:09:04 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2011, 07:40:57 AM

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

I don't see that Michelle.  It's talking about the rules for Hebrew 'maidservants' and 'menservants'.  I don't see any talk here about children.  Somebody is lying to you if they say this applies to children under the age of 12.

Who says this applies to children?  And since when are children called maids and men?

"maidservant"

H519
אמה
'âmâh
aw-maw'
Apparently a primitive word; a maidservant or female slave: - (hand-) bondmaid (-woman,) maid (-servant).

In both Exodus 21:7-11 and Numbers 31:17-18? Then why using the terms "GIRLS" and women "CHILDREN"?

The fact remains that it shouldn't apply to neither female nor male under the age of 18... And how are we supposed to trust english translations when they are so full of mistranslated words? I wish I could read Greek and Hebrew, but I'd never be able to. It's a whole bunch of weird letters. My native language is french (I'm french Canadian) and it took me two years to learn english. I had to learn it on my own because the way they taught it in school just didn't work for me. I'm both a visual and auditory learner, so audio tapes just didn't work for me. I had to learn it with DVD movies and subtitle, books and dictionnaries. I tried to learn spanish once. After a week, I gave up. How do you, yourself, translate from the Greek and Hebrew and which Bibles do you use?

Michelle it's not about sex slaves.
^YLTExod 21
2 `When thou buyest a Hebrew servant--six years he doth serve, and in the seventh he goeth out as a freeman for nought;

The slaves are set free on the seventh year (sabbath year) No sex before marriage. Marriage is a life time. Not 6 years. I guess there never was a marriage with none Hebrew slaves. So I think it has nothing to do with sex slaves at all.

As for the translations: click the "Free stuff" link in my signature. I highly recommend "The Word" (I also got an improved lexicon for it. Ask)
Always keep in mind you can't truely understand a language without knowing the culture....

Wow  :mshock: Wings your back  :bigGrin:

Yeah TT someone needs to keep a close eye one you.... :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: MichelleThe King James says "bethroded her to himself" instead of "designated her for himself". We're talking about marriage and sexual intercourses with little girls here. And that's God talking and condomning pedophilia...

QuoteThe minimum age for marriage under Jewish law is 13 for boys, 12 for girls; however, the kiddushin can take place before that, and often did in medieval times. The Talmud recommends that a man marry at age 18, or somewhere between 16 and 24.

Bethroded is 1-2 years before marriage.
For me pedophilia has not just to do with age but also the age difference. Is a 14 year old girl and 16 year old boy pedophilia?
Remember that age is now 18 in the USA but only a few decades ago it was 14.

QuoteSince the expression "take a wife" was in Scripture it could not very well be repudiated, but Jewish leaders made it clear that brides could not be bought and that marriage required the consent of the woman herself as well as that of her father.  Girls typically married at age 12 or 13, immediately after puberty, so one might be excused for wondering what chance they had of developing an informed opinion beyond that of their fathers.

http://www.womenintheancientworld.com/women%20and%20the%20law%20in%20ancient%20israel.htm

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 18, 2011, 10:43:27 PM
Yeah TT someone needs to keep a close eye one you.... :icon_jokercolor:


Thank you for reminding me of how mighty I can be in Gods kingdom  :icon_jokercolor:

I have had a tough few weeks lately, I was also on the edge about the same time you left, but thankfully I fought through it, glad to see that you have too. Bless

Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2011, 09:22:01 AM
"But a funny thing has happened in Egypt in 2011. When Muslim protesters in Tahrir Square drop to the ground to offer their daily prayers, they sometimes find themselves surrounded by Egyptian Christians standing at attention around them to shield them from the stones of attackers. Muslims in turn are offering the same protection to the Egyptian Christians.
.......
Egyptian Muslims and Egyptian Christians showing the world what it means to be your brother's keeper."

I can't agree with that. Christians helping muslims to worship their god? That like Jews helping Molech believers with their worship.

Quote from: Michelle on March 14, 2011, 08:45:41 AM
Twisting scriptures, not studying the Greek and the Hebrew and teaching vile and gross false doctrine... They enjoy teaching that God creates souls and bring people into this world just to throw them away like garbages to be endlessly roasted.

QuoteNowhere in this passage or anywhere in the Bible is there a teaching that all children are under the blood of Christ. The only ones under the blood of Christ are those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4)

Calvinists.... nuff said. Or should I say: snuff that?
Those humans were targeted that they identified as "life unworthy of life"
degenerate, dissident, feeble-minded, homosexual, idle, insane and the weak, for elimination

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

Quote from: Michellenot studying the Greek and the Hebrew

Most people don't study. People mostly follow trends set by others.
People vote like their parents did just because they did.
Same with chosing a denomination.
Same with fashion. Do you really think each year a billion people change their mind on what looks good?

Muslims, Christian defend each other, not teach them psalms and , the praise of quran, respectively.

I know. And with defending they (indirectly) aid the muslims calling upon their false god. Sounds like a bunch of Unitrarians  :winkgrin:

About NWO

Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 06:24:21 PMOf course, I don't study it anymore. With the ET doctrine, that's just another thing I don't want to think about. Whether the end of the world is coming or not, I just don't want to think about it. The last thing I want to think about is the earth shaking and everything exploding and burning as Jesus comes back and people running in all directions, panicking and screaming and dying in a pool of their own blood. The real Apocalypse. But like I said, if you don't believe me about the NWO, do some serious research. And you say that God has a purpose and reason for everything, including all the evil He creates and does? Well how come He's trying to destroy Christianity? Why the Bible-reading Christians who worship Him? I just don't get it...

History shows NWO is the great dream of humanity. It started with Nimrod. The Romans at Jesus' time would have formed a world order if they could. More recently Hitler had such hopes.   

QuoteThey are all in secret societies and they worship Satan. The evil Babylonic system. Ever heard of the Bohemian Grove? Skull & Bones? They worship Moloch, the evil "god" (fallen angel). They talk about Moloch in the Bible. In the Bible, people burned their children to Moloch. And what do the secret society, Skull & Bones, do? They burn children to that evil demon in the Bohemian Grove. They kidnap them and they burn them.

I think they don't worship Molech but Lilith. The screech owl. The first wife of Adam.

QuoteThey put evil spells on Rock & Roll and Rap albums, so that when people listen to them, they are possessed or under demonic oppression.

Oops. I have 200+ albums with such spells :-)

Also, any suggestion or advice on "how to deprogram yourself from religious brainwashing, false teachings and the resulting bad habits that come with those" is most welcome. That would help a lot. Thanks and God bless you, brother.
Michelle

I'd like to post more, but you are going to fast for my liking, many others think you need to slow down.
Ok from personal experience I can say that, one bad habit or cult you are in right now, and that is the cult of conspiracy theories. Reading these stories becomes a cult brainwashing experience, where everything in life is deemed "evil". This type of cult is so strong it can make you fear your own mother. Everything in life is attacked by conspiracy theorist, the president, the government, Church, people, celebrities etc, they only offer the problem but never a solution. Have you asked yourself how do these "agents" get this information? Are they some kind of super spies, that this "All" powerfull shadow goverment cannot trace. These people turn everyday items into, tools of satan. The common lightbulb becomes a radioactive device that poisons your mind, the computer becomes a device to store all your secret stuff, Television is a tool to hypnotize you into a slave,  etc blah, blah etc I honestly don't think that these people have any intentions in having joy or peace, they enjoy? the fear and the misery or more likely slaves to misery and fear.

The programming of these fears is already apparent in you, the programming is to make you distrust everything, including those things that be noble and good. Take Ex president George Bush, he is a Christian church goer, not perfect but seems a decent bloke, but his character has been attacked by conspiracy theorists to make him into some kind of antichrist. Some Christians think George Bush was the best president, by standing up to abortion etc.

It's also not the cults that time the coming of the man of sin or world leader. The man of sin comes when God allows him to come, when he that letteth lets, when you see him sit in the temple of God, that's what the word says.

I wouldn't call these conspiracy theories nutters, like some people do, but there's a lot of false information out there and there is an incorrect spirit or way of dealing that most of these conspiracy theorist are coming from, in my opinion.

The man of sin comes when God allows him to come, when he that letteth lets, when you see him sit in the temple of God, that's what the word says.

What?  know ye not that YOU are a temple of the Holy Ghost???

The man of sin is our own carnal self sitting on the throne of our hearts.

Quote from: Lefein on March 16, 2011, 05:40:53 AM
Everyone will be saved.  Jesus will win.  The Earth and everyone in it will be made righteous, perfect, and good.

Why are you worried about a shadow government (if it even exists) that isn't going to last more than a blip of a second in the scope of Eternity?  And more than that - why are you worried about it at all?  Considering that everything will be put under Christ in subject to His Governance; and not only that...but the Earth and Universe and the rest of it will be pretty much rolled up like a burning scroll --- again, Everyone will be saved.  Jesus will win.  The Earth and everyone in it will be made righteous, perfect, and good. --- why are you worried?

So what, Lefein? It doesn't change anything to what I am. I am a warrior of Light, a soldier for Christ.

2 Timothy 2:3 Endure hardship with us like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." 2 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)

The Greek is stratologeo, "to gather (or select) as a warrior, that is, enlist in the army; choose to be a soldier." - Strong

The armor of God, including truth, faith and hope - Ep 6:10-17
a. The Word of God is a powerful sword of the Spirit - Ep 6:17; He 4:12
b. Faith is a powerful shield against the devil - Ep 6:16
c. Hope likewise serves as a helmet - Ep 6:17

2 Corinthians 10:3-4 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

When I see evil, I expose it, I stand up to it and I fight it as He direct my steps and use me. Just like He used David against Goliath, just like He sent His disciples to cast out evil spirits... I put on the armor of God daily, like Paul said...

http://www.realarmorofgod.com/armor-of-god.html

(Scroll down and look for how to pray on the armor...)

... and I stand up to evil. I stand my ground and I don't move an inch. You see, that's what I want and it's an honor for me to to be one His soldiers, one His warriors. Fighting evil is one of my greatest, deepest desires and it's an honor for me to be His instrument, like David was and so many others before him and after him. Sure, I get pretty peeved at the Lord, but we both want the same thing. The end of evil. I've been a soldier, a warrior for the past six months. I've been pretty down at times, but thanks to Him, I've always got back on my feet. His strength is sufficient. At the moment, I'm fighting another battle, but it is a necessary one. When I oull through that battle, I'll go back to standing up to evil. I'm not always warring against the forces of darkness. There are many soldiers at there. At times, I study scriptures, pray and minister. As a child of the Living God, I am a child of Light. And Light, along with Love always prevail...

Quote from: Lefein on March 17, 2011, 04:15:14 AM
12-13 was also the marrying age of the time.  People didn't marry at 20, 30, or 40.  Most people didn't live past 40, and there were many other reasons, namely health and security for which a girl was married at 13.  Boys were also pressured to marry young (of which I have no issues with, it is not a negative thing to marry young, and marrying at 30 or 40 doesn't automatically make it better) --- Boys who didn't marry by 18/20, were often thought to be cursed.

In essence, people married young, and it was just fine and dandy.  It wasn't until about 50 or 60 years ago in The West (America, England, France?) that marriages began to be held at the ages of 25, 30, 40 - even in the 1960's 16 year olds were marrying 25 year olds, and otherwise.  And this was also just fine and dandy.

The issue of age discrepancy (a cultural issue specifically, rather than purely moral) came around when people decided that sex was more important than marriage...

It is totally a moral issue. 16 is not 18. Three words for marriage and sex with minors: pedophilia and jail bait. No self-respected Christian aprove this. There's nothing fine and dandy about this. There's a reason why it's against the law too. It's sick, ammoral and teens are not responsible and mature enough to understand all the responsibilities that come with marriage. And a minor shouldn't bear children, they are not fully grown and minors are not fit to raise kids, being kids themselves. Marriage is between two mature, responsble and willing adults. It's sick enough to think about all those thirteen years old teenage girls nowadays who just walk around with make-up on their face and very short skirts to get in bed with just about any boy. I think it's utterly sick that tendency that society has to sexualize minors, to encourage them to dress and behave like adults (harlots is more like it). And I'm not even talking about subliminal messaging and obscene teen idols. If a girl didn't lose her virginity by 14, she is mocked, ridiculed and rejected. So some of them just do it to be accepted, to have friends and all this because some parents won't teach their kids that they should only care about what Jesus thinks and not what people think, no matter how alone and secluded they are. And that is why there are so many minors with AIDS and so many pregnant teenage girls nowadays. May the Lord save as many of them as possible before Satan get those unsaved kids who are slaves to sin and Satan to do something they will regret their whole lives. Isn't that His responsible to save those spiritually blind and spiritually dead kids from AIDS and sick minor pregnancy that would ruin their whole lives? Something that ammoral, disgusting and evil should be of great concern to Him...   

l

Quote from: Miriam on March 17, 2011, 08:31:13 PM
I'm like you, Michelle, in that I'm having to rethink things that I thought were fundamental truths; this is not limited to the questions of universal reconciliation that we debate here. As an example, as I understand it, the word translated "abomination" means something made ritually unclean according to the Old Testament's Holiness Code and it also included things like eating certain foods and wearing garments made of more than one type of material; I am not convinced these are disgusting and hateful in the eyes of God.

On a practical note, I don't know how to stop my post being too wide for the page and apologise to those now needing to scroll sideways.  :mblush: Edited to add that now it's posted it seems ok...  :dontknow:

There might be one or two verses, but those are not MY posts and I've checked with the Bible. They really do exist. They say that some same sex people had their souls knitted and had a very close and emotional relationship; like Ruth, Jonathan and Daniel. But they especially talk about Jonathan:

1 Samuel 20:30; 2 Samuel 1:26. Though one would wonder why he said that while calling him, brother. A mistranslation? You tell me...

They say other things too and I've checked the scriptures. It's all true:

"If so, then Bathsheba's sexual attributes must have been awesome to say the least when King David is on record saying that the love that Jonathan was offering him was MORE WONDERFUL THAN THE LOVE OF WOMEN… to the point that it drove King David to kill her husband."

"King David already had a few "GOD" GIVEN WIVES. One of them was MICHAL, JONATHAN'S SISTER! What the Heck David was crazy in love with Michal!"

"In the Bible stories "God" switched the HUSBAND of King David's wives 3 times! God transferred to King David ALL THE WIDOWS OF KING SAUL INCLUDING MICHAL'S MOM. So King David was able to have sexual intercourse with Michal and her loving mother at same time and in the same bed! GOD MADE THEM ALL ONE FLESH! At the end, God takes away ALL OF KING DAVID'S WIVES INCLUDING BATHSHEBA AND DELIVERS THEM TO ONE OF KING DAVID'S SONS by the name of Absalom, so he can enjoy sex with all of them, including his own mom, in FULL VIEW OF ISRAEL."

"2 Samuel 12:11-12 This is what the LORD says* (*to King David): "Out of your own household* (*children) I am going to bring calamity upon you. BEFORE YOUR VERY EYES I* (*God, not Satan, but God!) WILL TAKE YOUR WIVES* (plural) AND GIVE THEM to one who is close to you* (*one of King David's sons), and HE WILL LIE* (*have sex) WITH YOUR WIVES* (*NOT WIDOWS, BUT WIVES)! You did it in secret, but I* (*GOD, not Satan, BUT GOD) will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel."

"God fulfilled his promise, as usual. He put out a show for all Israel to enjoy, without any age restriction! Even the future King Solomon was watching how his brother Absalom was having sex with his own MOTHER!"

Not Satan, but the God of so-called "love" condomned and organized orgy, incest and gang rape of women... I'm not even surprised... After all, I've been gang raped many times and I've been a victim too... I'm just gonna mentally back-file this, like I did countless times in the past with the ET doctrine, pretend I never read it and, and please, don't even mention it, especially not while I'm so enraged with God and so busy punishing Him for His monstruosity by totally ignoring Him and doing harm to His temple with nicotine. If you are seriously looking into the Greek and Hebrew to find out if being gay really is a sin or not and you find out the answer, PM me. If I have been wrong, I gotta stand up for them. But don't hold it against me if I just pretend for a while that I never received your answer. There are limits to what I can and cannot deal with...

He gave full aproval to David to sleep with the mother, the sister... and the son (2 Samuel 1:26)...

He broke His own law. In Leviticus, He forbade incest and then He make Absalom rape His own mother and leave her helpless in the hands of her son. Yeah, that's being LOVE. THAT is loving your children, loving everyone. I love you = I brought evil upon you and make you a victim for the faults of others. He condemn sex outside of mariage and He had Absalom rape David's WIVES. He said in Leviticus that a man is not to sleep with both a woman and his daughter. He gave David full aproval to do just that. He breaks His own laws whenever it suits Him, get away with everything (*sarcastic* "it's not sin, He's God Almighty. It's okay if does these things and get away with it") and He breaks His own laws for the sake of doing sick evil and horror...

And as if that wasn't enough God brutally murdered 70 000 persons and an innocent baby for the crime of ONE SINGLE man...

Everytime I start to trust God, I discover that He has committed even more evil and horror to His children that he supposedly love. Yeah, that's love. God certainly doesn't love EVERYONE since He takes it out on countless people for the sins of ONE SINGLE man. I bet I was gang raped many times as punishment for being conceived out of wedlock for something my parents did before I was even born. How many times was I called "Child of sin" or "bastard" and live with that kind of shame too? And what about "God is no respector of persons"? He sure was a respector of persons when He chose Jacob over Esau and hated Esau even before he was born and before he did anything...

All He ever does is add more suffering and more evil to my life. I never had ONE blessing, not even ONE. He keeps me enslaved to my addiction to cigarette and He certainly doesn't want me to quit because He just won't cure me, He won't cure my defective memory so I can finally memorize scriptures for spiritual warfare, He hides things about my past from me, He refuse to save my mother and sister and teach them in this life what they are doing wrong and guide their steps so they won't have to suffer unnecessary chastisement and pain in the lake of fire because He didn't take His responsibilities and saved them in this life so they will just undergo even more pain and chastisement that could've been avoid had He took His responsibility (He clearly hates my mother and sister and while we're at it, since He hates them so much, He certainly doesn't love me. My mom is 50 and her health is fragile. It'll be all His fault if they suffer additional pain and chastisement that could've been avoid! I'll never forgive Him if they are put through horrible fiery suffering that could've been avoid! I've been crying, praying, sobbing and begging for months and He just won't save them! They will suffer even more because of Him, because He did not save them and spare them being unsaved people and slaves to sin and Satan longer than necessary! He will keep them enslaved to unsaveness till the day they die and they will be put through even more horrible pain and chastisement that could've been avoid! There could never be any kind of forgiveness for hurting my family like that on the other side! Why should I love Him since He hates my loved ones so much that He won't save them in this life so that I have at least two people to fellowship with in real life and so that they don't suffer more because He didn't take His responsibility? One should never punish anyone for not taking His responsibilities! I told Him from the start that I would only love Him more than family and friend so long as He took His responsibilities and spared them additional horrible pain and terrible chastisement. I will go against Him and rebel against Him if I have to to protect my precious mother and sister...) He didn't answer a single one of my prayers in three months and He takes everyone I love and care about away by turning them against me, filling them with evil and rage to make them hate me so that I always end up all alone and secluded because He's freaking vindicative, wrathful and jealous and He just won't let me get close to anyone in real life! It's been ten years now! I've had it with Him! Either He makes something good happen in my life or I'll drive Him insane with rage and force Him to kill so I won't have to put up with this anymore!

He could've come to earth in the flesh in OT time and teach people what they were doing wrong instead of doing all those evils and murdering billions of people He supposedly loved. Instead of waiting hundreds of years to come to earth in the flesh in the NT. He knew full well from the beginning that the law was death and that no one could ever keep it. He knew from the beginning and He murdered all those billions of people for something that was entirely His fault. Because He could've come way sooner or create a law that people could keep so that all those billions of lives would've been spared (including those who died in the flood). Don't tell me it's not His fault. He knew everything from the beginning and according to everyone, He can't make any mistake. By the way, that part, I've been told by an ex Christian Universalist and he's right about that...

They posted that as well:

"Psalm [of David] 14:1 (KJV) The FOOL hath said in his heart, THERE IS NO GOD. They* (*the foolish atheists, NOT KING DAVID, but the atheists!) are corrupt, they* (*the foolish atheists, NOT KING DAVID, but the atheists!) have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good* (*none of the foolish atheists does good, ONLY KING DAVID and ALL THE BIBLE WRITERS ARE HOLY MEN OF “GOD” DOING “GOOD” ALL THE TIME!)"

Doesn't that make Christians of all denominations, including ours, hypocrites? We're not better than them. "NONE is righteous, NOT ONE. There is NONE that seek God..." all by themselves...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100919035942AAJ6rKa

Quote from: jabcat on March 17, 2011, 11:28:19 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 17, 2011, 09:11:42 PM
..the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Do they all not have the same fate?

If thought through a little more, I don't think you really mean "so live like you want, no matter what the scriptures teach us".

Yes, we will all be cleansed.  In the meantime, "to whom much is given, much is required".


And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required... Luke 12:47,48

(J. Preston Eby, Lake of Fire)   "There should be no question remaining as to the certainty of this lake of fire; neither should there be any doubt as to the awful consequence of having to be cast into it. These Scriptures with their dreadful foreboding should be a fearful warning to all unthinking and foolish people who, because of their love for the world, the flesh, and the devil, have dared to ask why we should serve God now if all are going to be saved eventually."

Blessings.

EVERYONE will be cast into it. But those who died the first death (died to self) in this life will not be "hurt" of the second death. It will be less painful for them, but they will not avoid pain entirely. All must be rid of the carnal mind to enter heaven and all have carnal minds. By the way, that's a low blow. In using words such as "dreadful" and fearful", Eby sink to the level of the Fundies. And He should know that everyone is imperfect. And by the way, I have no choice but to punish God for what He did to those people and myself. If He punishes me even more with an even more terrible punishment, that'll just prove that he hates those who are angry and mad at Him for what He did to them when they totally have the right to feel the way they do. God should not get away with all the horrible and sick evils He did to countless billions including myself. He deserves punishment for incest, orgy and gang rape. And the only way I can punish Him is by totally ignoring Him and keep filling His temple with disgusting, stinking chemicals. He should take the punishment since He totally deserve it. If He wasn't that proud and unjust, He would punish Himself because that's totally unfair that no one gets away with everything while He does. There is no excuse for evil. And if He wants me to stop being so freaking mad at Him and filling my lungs with even more filth then He should stop filling my life with endless evil, suffering and misery while others are covered in blessings. I didn't ask my freaking parents to conceive me out of wedlock and I didn't ask to be gang raped. He did all this, I was a victim. He's the one in control. So He should never ever punish anyone not even for a single second because He's in total control and it's not people's fault He doesn't take His responsibilities. He has no right to ever punish anyone when He's in total control and people are totally victims of evil people and circumstances. He can punish Himself for sending Satan to attack and oppress me and my family for so many years. You think it's fun seeing shadows, being attacked in the middle of the night, having nightmares and hearing demonic voices inside you? That's what I've been through for ten freaking years! Add to that being gang raped and being the child of a couple of immoral people. Add to that never having any friend in real life. The last friend I made, God turned Him against me after a week and we never ever picked a fight. He always does that because He's so freaking jealous and evil that He won't allow me to get close to anyone! I was born with a disability and I'll never be able to take a job or live a normal life! I can't be a missionary or do anything useful for the poor, the sick and other people! I'm totally useless and He totally refuse to use me! I shouldn't have been born to begin with because my life never had a meaning and never will have one. Even on the Internet, no one ever offered me to do something useful or work on a project. It's not like I can afford softwares and stuff like that. So I will remain useless till the day I die. I just wish He would freaking kill me, but He just won't...

Quote from: shawn on March 18, 2011, 12:19:58 AM

Quote from: Lefein on March 16, 2011, 06:18:47 AM
Why do you keep switching from praying to God/liking God/fighting heresy --- to hating God in your posts?

I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jacob-wrestling-with-God.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/newinspiration/spiritualimpartation.html

I will NEVER, NOT EVER say goodbye to those I ever loved. I'll die ten thousand times before I say goodbye to my mother and sister. I told Him right at the very beginning. No is no and my answer is still no. He better put that through His head. I will not let them down. They're all I have (humans) and I'm all they have.  Unlike Him, I really have unconditional love and I really am no respector of persons. Unlike Him, I don't put conditions and limits on love, making unconditional love conditional. "Love me more than family and friends instead of equally or else..." Then I choose else. Unlike Him, I don't put limits and conditions on "unconditional" love. Either He saves them too or I will keep fighting Him. The young man had a blessing? I won't let Him go until I have had mine, my one blessing. I've been waiting for ten years of unending suffering, horrors and evils. I'm gonna fight for their souls. Then we'll see to whom they matter the most...   

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-law.html

Hey, what do you know. Sometimes the Fundies DO have it right. Looks like they can sing another tune than "99% of mankind's gonna roast in hell for all eternity" after all...

*Sigh* -_- Not yet apparently:

http://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

The Book of James was only put in the Bible to show people that it's dangerous to mix law with grace. They're even lying.

"James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works."

James said that faith without work is dead, obviously implying that does who don't mix law with grace will not be saved (which is a lie) or that faith alone is not sufficient (another lie).

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-TheBookOfJacob.html

I think that James was Jesus' brother. That's what I've been told anyway. But if that's Judas Iscariote he's talking about, he is wrong. First, I doubt that God would have allow Judas Iscariote to write a book of the Holy Bible. Secondly, Jesus had a brother name Judas (Jude). Nothing to do with Iscariote...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude,_brother_of_Jesus

"There are theories that Jude was one of Twelve Apostles, but was known as Thaddaeus. His nickname may have occurred due to a resemblance to Jesus and to avoid confusion between Jude and Judas Iscariot. A local tradition of eastern Syria identifies Jude with the Apostle Thomas, also known as Jude Thomas or Judas Didymus Thomas (Thomas means twin in Aramaic, as does Didymus in Greek.)

Or possibly Thomas...

Jesus had four brothers; James, Joses, Simon and Jude. He had sisters too, but it seems that their names are not found in the Bible...

"Joseph being the father of those mentioned, nor is there any indication that Mary was a lifelong virgin."

Since the Bible doesn't talk about a separation or a divorce and both Joseph and Mary were known to be very faithful to God, I personally think that Joseph was the father...

Some say: "Assertions that Jesus had natural brothers and sisters (siblings) is untrue. Mary remains ever a virgin."

The Bible is against them on this. They were His half-brothers and half-sisters. Mary remained faithful to her husband.

Matthew 13:55-56 Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary? Aren't his brothers' names James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? And aren't all his sisters here with us? Where, then, did this man get all this?"

Michelle, have you considered that it's satan's business to confuse us, distort our thoughts, including (especially) about God and about ourselves?  That steals our victory and joy. 

Are you like me (I'm not there yet) in that you need to stop telling God what He should be doing, and humble yourself before Him - i.e., be the clay, and let Him be the Potter?

Also Michelle, I've asked you in private, now I'm going to do it in public - as your unhealthy posts have continued in public.  Please, get some help for your emotions and mental health.  With all the trauma you've shared that you've experienced, and all the issues and symptoms you've shared, please - call your local behavioral health office first things Monday morning and ask them to get you in to see someone.  I believe your personal trauma and the pain from that is affecting you in many ways, including how you view and relate to God.  Our mental health has far-reaching effects, including into our spiritual life.

God bless you.  We want to help you, but there's only so much we can do on a discussion forum.  Sometimes other help is necessary to go along with it.   :2c: 

James.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 18, 2011, 03:07:20 AM



http://www.millettephotomedia.com/en/pics/474_hemerocallis_woman_at_the_well_%28daylily%29_0267.html

For who???

Quote from: Lefein on March 18, 2011, 01:30:47 AM

Quote
I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

Try expressing anything when you are furious and everything hurts like hell. I'm so tired of being freaking moulded. I'm just so freaking tired of all the confusions and the Bible verses that don't make any sense or appear to contradict each others. The freaking clay is freaking exhausted. But where my loved ones are concern, I will not give up. I will have my one blessing. I will have Him save my mother and sister. And after that, I'll FINALLY have someone to fellowship with in real life...   

Quote from: MichelleUnlike Him, I really have unconditional love and I really am no respector of persons. Unlike Him, I don't put conditions and limits on love, making unconditional love conditional.

Michelle, this is so unfair to God.  Do you really believe you are able to love more than he is?  Should we maybe worship you instead?

Quote"Love me more than family and friends instead of equally or else..." Then I choose else.

He doesn't say 'or else.'  He makes a statement of fact regarding this.  I remember when I first read that, I thought 'impossible.'  For women, especially, our family relationships are very strong and important to us.  Over the years, he has somehow worked that in me.  I do love him more now than all others.  He is my family.  But, I also
know that he will somehow use me to cover them--
like the story of rahab--because of her relationship
with Joshua, her whole family was saved.

22But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot's house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her.
23And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel.

--Josh 6



Michelle, do you love or hate God?  Can you make a decision to trust him?  Can you take a leap of faith and see where it leads?

Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 18, 2011, 04:03:35 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 18, 2011, 12:28:14 AM



No James, I am referring to Matthew 7:3.

Okay, what does Matt.7:3 and 7:5 mean?

Mat 7:3  `And why dost thou behold the mote that is in thy brother's eye, and the beam that is in thine own eye dost not consider?

Matthew 7:5 as well;   "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."   I'm never that "good", so sometimes I try to share and then let God do the rest.

There is a mote or speck and a beam or a large piece of lumber. Which is worse off or is one not at bad?

The modern expression is: "Before you look at the splinter in your neighbor's eye, take out the log in your own eye." Or for short: "That's the splinter in the neighbor's eye!" Meaning: "Who do you think you are, judging that person/situation?" Or maybe that's just here in Canada. I dunno. Ever heard the expression: "When despair was in the dust bowl..."? What does despair have to do with dust and bowl? Is that one of your strange American expressions? Like when you use food as insults (fruitcake??? What does it have to do with being a cracked pot??? I just don't get it.) I doubt that people walk around saying that weird stuff about despair in dust bowl...

What the heck was that devil, Obama, talking about??? :dontknow:

Wanna see something very scary guys? I found that out today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQK54-KtDcw&feature=related

"When there was despair in the dust bowl. Yes we can" (reverse) = "The Lord said the new Arab sins are with Him. Thank you, Satan."

*Gasp, shriek* O_O !!!! :faint:

Do you believe me now, when I tell you that he's totally evil? Trying to get to our brains with subliminal messaging and preparing to take over Solomon's temple as soon as it will be rebuilt. Why do you think Egypt is under so many attacks???

"A new sense of common purpose. Yes we can" (reverse) = Thank you Satan. Sub-earth - the mark that's now sooner..."

"and a democracy was saved. Yes we can. She was there for the buses in Montgomery" (reverse) "Hear my composite self for the Pharaoh Zeus - Thank you Satan - Yes, so we serve confidently."

*Gasp, shriek* O_O !!!! :faint:

He even ridiculize Christ. He says that he was send by his father to save the planet earth... He mock Jesus, He even mocked the Sermon on the Mount once, saying the state defense department wouldn't survive its application...

Noticed that He said, "Yes we can" seven times? That's the number of perfection. He has a messianic complex. Did you know that his birth certificate is a fake? It was photoshoped! It was even made BEFORE he was born! If you want proof, let me know. I'll send you a PM with the videos of people that have investigate the matter. You'll have all the proofs you need...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehM0f6NPTDw

"We're kicking off inaugural week events on Sunday afternoon" (reverse) = "You understand this, U.S Navy? Yea, we're finally going to get you..."

*Gasp* O_O !!!! He's gonna blow up the U.S Navy??? Thank God, my beloved brother, Thomas is not a Marine anymore...

"In ways you can participate" (reverse) = "Death is a struggle because you own it."

*Gasp* O_O !!!! That's utter heresy!!!! Jesus is the Lord of the living and the dead!!!!

"333 for News" (reverse) = "Soon the earth, the earth, the earth, the earth,"

*Gasp* O_O !!!!

"Anybody can serve" (reverse) = "First, get rid of the net."

"And great change" (reverse) = Smash their net."

*Gasp* O_O !!!! He's gonna shut down the Internet???

"God bless America" (reverse) = "Time was held back."

O_O !!!???

"Bless America"... What a hypocrite... He has "Satan" tattooed on his... hum... forehead...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 17, 2011, 09:11:42 PM
Who of us has not fallen into one of the categories listed below?

Revelation 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do they all not have the same fate?

Fear is not a sin. Fear is a human weakness. The sin is to give in to fear and deny Him before man...

Quote from: shawn on March 18, 2011, 05:05:07 AM

Quote from: Lefein on March 18, 2011, 01:30:47 AM

Quote
I think it's clear that Michelle is in a battle.  We should all remind ourselves of our own personal struggles with faith.  I doubt any of us would be here had there not been some sort of spiritual crisis in our lives.

I understand that she's in a battle, but it is difficult to provide help with the way this battle is being expressed.

I hear ya Lefein.  I think what Michelle might not understand is that many of us are truly in love with Christ.  When someone you love is insulted it hurts.  So, I do get it.  What I know is this...her battle is not a knowledge or an understanding battle.  Though she might believe it is.  It's a trust and faith battle.  But, I have faith that God is doing a work and that Michelle will be brought into the fullness of his rest.  But, she isn't going down without a fight.   :laughing7:

This post has been mod edited due to its inappropriate content.

But, she isn't going down without a fight.   :laughing7:

[/quote]

You can bet your bottom dollar on that...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 18, 2011, 05:12:55 AM



Micah, finger-pointing at another person's sin only exemplifies the blindness to our own.

:laughing7: :laughing7:

Quote from: jabcat on March 18, 2011, 05:29:05 AM

Seems judging can also be making the judgment that others are judging, and then the other making the judgment that the other person's judging others as judging, ad infinitim... It's a tricky binezz.  :laughing7:

Boils down to none of us have stones to throw, but we also can discuss the scrips and what we think they mean.  :dontknow:

:laughing7:

As for discussiing the scrips and their meaning, well, good luck. If you haven't been utterly shocked before, you will be now. If some people here can translate the Hebrew and Greek, then maybe try to make sense of it. I can't read it, nor speak it, much less translate it...

Quote from: Lefein on March 18, 2011, 07:21:43 AM
Michelle, you aren't going to get a perfect translation.  They simply don't exist.

But if it helps you - for the Old Testament at least, take a look at The Septuagint, there are English translations of it though they use the words "for ever" and "everlasting" but that shouldn't be too difficult to deal with if your faith is in God, not a book.

What's the Septuagint? I hope that's not the Apocrypha you're talking about because it is huge li. Nothing but a bunch of traditions of men and doctrines of demons. I hope it's not Latin Vulgate either. Because Latin Vulgate is corrupt. What I don't get is why some people at TM say that the 1611 KJV was translated from the Latin Vulgate, when I've been told for six months straight that it was translated for the Textus Receptus. How the heck is He suppose to teach anything to anyone out of corrupt and mistranslated books?

Quote from: shawn on March 18, 2011, 07:00:49 PM
Molly said, "Slow down and trust God".

Amen.  That word isn't just for Michelle.  I needed a bit of that myself.

Please, do share... :2c:

Quote from: Michelle on March 20, 2011, 10:48:30 AM

Quote from: Lefein on March 18, 2011, 07:21:43 AM
Michelle, you aren't going to get a perfect translation.  They simply don't exist.

But if it helps you - for the Old Testament at least, take a look at The Septuagint, there are English translations of it though they use the words "for ever" and "everlasting" but that shouldn't be too difficult to deal with if your faith is in God, not a book.

What's the Septuagint?

The O was translated to Greek 300-200BC http://www.septuagint.net/
There is an English translation of that Greek. http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

QuoteI hope that's not the Apocrypha you're talking about because it is huge li. Nothing but a bunch of traditions of men and doctrines of demons. I hope it's not Latin Vulgate either. Because Latin Vulgate is corrupt. What I don't get is why some people at TM say that the 1611 KJV was translated from the Latin Vulgate, when I've been told for six months straight that it was translated for the Textus Receptus.

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/what-are-the-errors-in-king-james-version-bible.html
Parts of KJV are Vulgate.

QuoteSchaff points out that in about 80 places in the New Testament, the KJV adopts Latin readings not found in the Greek.

The remarks are highly biased:

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3843/bible.gif)


Larger:http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3843/bible.gif (http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3843/bible.gif)

Michelle, I've placed a partial ban on your account until you let me know you've gotten some help and that things will be different regarding your posting on the boards.  I believe the ban will allow you to read the forum and still use PMs.  If it won't do those things please let me know and I'll try to fix it.  You are not being "cast out", but you are being limited until some things change.  Listen to and follow through on the help that's been offered.  Take care, James.

Quote from: Michelle on March 17, 2011, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 16, 2011, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: Michelle on March 16, 2011, 05:18:40 AM

If you don't think homosexuality is a sin and an abomination in the eyes of God, just look into the Bibles.

Yeah, that is exactly what the people who you are mad at will tell you too. And that is my point,  you are only railing against what is convenient for you to do so about.  You are only stirring up whats in the same religious box and hoping it comes out in a pattern that lets you feel good about it.

You want scriptures? I'll give you scriptures. And from many different Bibles:

Old Testament:

Leviticus 18:22:

NASB - You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Funny how the old testament never details anything associated with lesbianism.  Yet here we go with the stupidity that says something detailing a male sexual act has something to do with homosexuality as a whole.   It's just dumb,  it only proves over and over that people already think it is wrong and then use the bible as support no matter how dumb and off base that association is.


New Testament:

Quote
1 Timothy 1:9-10:

NASB - realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

There is no ancient greek word that is EVER rightly translated to homnosexual.   The closest is male prostitute and you do not have to be a homosexual to be a male prostitute.

If you are simply going by the wording of an english translation then again you only show that youi have NOT gathered the idea that homosexuality is wrong based on proper biblical study.   

Even if you use a translation that infers it through such words or phrases as "adultery" "sexual immorality" "natural use"  you have only proven that you already think homosexuality is wrong before you ever start reading the bible about it.

Quote
The bottom line is, there is no explicit reason in the Bible for why its wrong. It just says- very clearly- that it is an "abomination".

The bottom line is that you and anyone else who says the bible clearly declares homosexuality wrong, has no idea what they are talking about in the biblical sense, all they do is parrot religious diarhea.

Quote
When we start throwing in our own rationalizations for WHY why we think God feels that way about this or any other sin, its just a pointless circular debate that never gets solved. Humans are flawed and can be wrong, God's Word is always true. So we are to take the Bible word on it. And really, we arent in the position to try and justify God's commands. He said not to do it. 

Actually the stupidity of all of this is that you are defying your own words by all your railing on and on and on about this thart and the other thing.


If you are so glorious and such a warrior for God then when you show that the bible clearly condones pedophilia, then who are you to question the almighty about it,.  you should just realize that it is ok and not use your ownb rationalizations about it.

You just like anyone else who starts talking about the old testament laws will show to be nothing but an idiotic hypocrite.

Now, go kill some children who have misbehaved.

Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:09:04 PM
Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Nothing in the greek is explicit to sexuality in those verses,  these are additions in translations and only shows the predisposed belief and not scriptural clarity on the matter of homosexuality.   Homosexualaity is an assumption that many people think is safe because they believe there is a rational unbiblical reason for homosexuality to be wrong.

You just can't prove homosexuality to be wrong with scripture, cannot be done without inference and assumption.

Actually most UR people who take the stance against homosexuality do not realize that how they go about it actually support the idea that all men are not saved,  the same technics of inference and assumption apply.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:17:46 PM


Actually most UR people who take the stance against homosexuality do not realize that how they go about it actually support the idea that all men are not saved,  the same technics of inference and assumption apply.

That is certainly possible.  The thought of homosexuality not being sin would be a very foreign concept to me.  It's not even something I have really pondered.  I have always accepted it as fact.  I will say though that the thought of some people being born with a sexual desire for the same sex always seemed unfair.  Are we condemning these people to a life of loneliness?  Or can Christ change their inner workings?  Of course, we see this concept throughout humanity.  Was it fair I was born with a genetic predisposition towards addictive behaviors?  Was that something placed within me that would need to be overcome by Christ to reveal himself to me?

I understand that this is an emotionally charged subject for you.  I ask though that we keep these discussions Christ-like.  I understand the visceral response to some posters...I feel it as well.  But, we are called to more.

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Paul, you said;

"There is no ancient greek word that is EVER rightly translated to homnosexual.

The bottom line is that you and anyone else who says the bible clearly declares homosexuality wrong, has no idea what they are talking about in the biblical sense, all they do is parrot religious diarhea."


I hope you realize these are your opinions and understandings, and are not necessarily the truth any more than what you accuse others of.  As you know, I disagree with you on this, and I've given what I believe to be evidence - not just "parroting diarrhea" - IMO, that's a pretty assumptive statement.

I'm not trying to convince you, but am responding to the above statements. 

James.

I agree it's a tough situation Shawn.  But aren't we all born with brokenness, predispositions?  Some have illicit attractions to children, some susceptible to alcoholism, gambling addiction, depression, schizophrenia, etc., etc.   God heals, soothes, leads us, directs our steps - and then ultimately restores all to perfection.  IMO, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with God not saving all.  I don't even see any connection.  We can look around and see all the sin and brokenness, and realize it's all temporal, that God has a plan, and will redeem all His creation.  This life is temporal, a learning and honing experience, and none of us come through it unscathed.  Obviously many have a more difficult lot than others, but when God is All in All, it means just that - All.


For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  Rm. 8:18

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Well, that is the inherant fallacy.   You would expect me to provide scripture that says homosexuality is ok therefore protecting your preconcieved notions in your own mind. 

I will in brief point out the problems and what I believe the scriptures are talking about.


In leviticus many of the laws were about cleanliness and hygene.  Homosexuals males do not like it whan I say that they shouldn't have anal sex.  Anal sex is dirty and nasty based upon human hygene, not morality.    Anal sex does not define who a homosexual is.   You can easily be a homosexual and never engage in anal sex.

There is no old testament reference detailing lesbianism in any form.

As far as the new testament verses used to say it is wrong.

Those verses are about spirtual health and behavior towards one another.   Lust is a word that has been associated primarily with sexuality, but lust can be about many things.    And as far as natural affections.

Many assume that if your heterozexual then you can burn with lust and that you cannot exchange natural affections, but that is a lie.   The orpahanges are full proving that heterosexuals have exchanged LOVE for self gratification.

Homosexuality has been painted as inheratly flawed,  religious teachings want you to believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving monogomous relationships  as if looking around the world heterosexuality has proven to be a better example of love or something.

It is up to you if you are going to "reconsider" what you have been told.

Quote from: jabcat on March 22, 2011, 07:48:48 PM
Paul, you said;

"There is no ancient greek word that is EVER rightly translated to homnosexual.

The bottom line is that you and anyone else who says the bible clearly declares homosexuality wrong, has no idea what they are talking about in the biblical sense, all they do is parrot religious diarhea."


I hope you realize these are your opinions and understandings, and are not necessarily the truth any more than what you accuse others of.  As you know, I disagree with you on this, and I've given what I believe to be evidence - not just "parroting diarrhea" - IMO, that's a pretty assumptive statement.

I'm not trying to convince you, but am responding to the above statements. 

James.

My initial comments were geared to point out that while someone complains that the old testament condones pedophilia they are happy to say that God is against homosexuality.

When I hear something from UR people in support of homosexuals being wrong that isn;t the same thing from an ET church who loves the homosexual  but thinks they are going to burn in hell / be punished / in need of help, then I will say something different James.

Everyone has their own idea about things, that is mine, you have yours, I'm not going to qualify everything I write as just an opinion any more than anyone else is going to say that they just think it is an opinion that all men are saved.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:57:25 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Well, that is the inherant fallacy.   You would expect me to provide scripture that says homosexuality is ok therefore protecting your preconcieved notions in your own mind. 

I will in brief point out the problems and what I believe the scriptures are talking about.


In leviticus many of the laws were about cleanliness and hygene.  Homosexuals males do not like it whan I say that they shouldn't have anal sex.  Anal sex is dirty and nasty based upon human hygene, not morality.    Anal sex does not define who a homosexual is.   You can easily be a homosexual and never engage in anal sex.

There is no old testament reference detailing lesbianism in any form.

As far as the new testament verses used to say it is wrong.

Those verses are about spirtual health and behavior towards one another.   Lust is a word that has been associated primarily with sexuality, but lust can be about many things.    And as far as natural affections.

Many assume that if your heterozexual then you can burn with lust and that you cannot exchange natural affections, but that is a lie.   The orpahanges are full proving that heterosexuals have exchanged LOVE for self gratification.

Homosexuality has been painted as inheratly flawed,  religious teachings want you to believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving monogomous relationships  as if looking around the world heterosexuality has proven to be a better example of love or something.

It is up to you if you are going to "reconsider" what you have been told.

I was hoping we could discuss these things without condescension.  From my experience, those who take smug or otherwise volitile attitudes towards others are inherently insecure with their own belief system.

For me to ask for scriptural support of your views shouldn't be met with resistance.  It should be expected, anticipated and with a cheerful heart.  Why?  Because, a person who's beliefs are scripturally sound are eager to share what they have discovered, or what has been revealed to them.

That was an incomplete response only leaving me with more questions.  If your view is "I could care less what you believe" then why bring it up?  If you do indeed care about educating those of us who might be interested in what you have to say, then it's not too much to ask for you to expound...and to do so with love.  Many times if the messanger is wearing a chip on his shoulder, his message gets lost in delivery.   :2c:

Even if homosexuality is not a sin, it is not necessarily healthy either - just throwing that out there, especially if homosexuality is more or less a symptom of a dysfunctional stimulus (like heterosexual lusts, porn addiction for example, are often a symptom of a complicated dysfunctional issue, of which sin becomes a central theme).

Lust in general, for man or for woman, same-sex or otherwise is sinful because it is harmful.  "Homosexuality = Sin" is a complicated issue because it involves a great many factors, of which "Sin" is a part (though not the whole thing). 

I do want to express that I do not appreciate homosexuality any more than I appreciate mishandled heterosexuality at any rate, but I am not about to judge a person to Hell based on their orientation, I would only express that there "must surely be a better means".  I struggle with Lust (of the heterosexual sort, and terribly so) and surely it is my greatest foe.  But I understand that sins of lust are not something that the religious-caste so easily write of as "an easy peasy superficial issue" the roots that cause lust are deep, complicated, and involve much more than just a wandering eye and a want for pleasure...In my experience my own lusts have brought nothing but horrid pain.  And so the things tainted with lust, find themselves tainted with pain - which renders it (loosely speaking) unhealthy.

Hard to explain I suppose, I just wanted to express the idea that even if Homosexuality is not a "Damnable Sin" as the religious-caste express it being, that does not necessarily mean it is healthy, in much the same way that pre-marital sex might not be a damnable sin (though it is said to be one by that same religious-caste) that does not necessarily mean that pre-marital sex is healthy either.  :2c:   

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 08:10:12 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:57:25 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Well, that is the inherant fallacy.   You would expect me to provide scripture that says homosexuality is ok therefore protecting your preconcieved notions in your own mind. 

I will in brief point out the problems and what I believe the scriptures are talking about.


In leviticus many of the laws were about cleanliness and hygene.  Homosexuals males do not like it whan I say that they shouldn't have anal sex.  Anal sex is dirty and nasty based upon human hygene, not morality.    Anal sex does not define who a homosexual is.   You can easily be a homosexual and never engage in anal sex.

There is no old testament reference detailing lesbianism in any form.

As far as the new testament verses used to say it is wrong.

Those verses are about spirtual health and behavior towards one another.   Lust is a word that has been associated primarily with sexuality, but lust can be about many things.    And as far as natural affections.

Many assume that if your heterozexual then you can burn with lust and that you cannot exchange natural affections, but that is a lie.   The orpahanges are full proving that heterosexuals have exchanged LOVE for self gratification.

Homosexuality has been painted as inheratly flawed,  religious teachings want you to believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving monogomous relationships  as if looking around the world heterosexuality has proven to be a better example of love or something.

It is up to you if you are going to "reconsider" what you have been told.

I was hoping we could discuss these things without condescension.  From my experience, those who take smug or otherwise volitile attitudes towards others are inherently insecure with their own belief system.

For me to ask for scriptural support of your views shouldn't be met with resistance.  It should be expected, anticipated and with a cheerful heart.  Why?  Because, a person who's beliefs are scripturally sound are eager to share what they have discovered, or what has been revealed to them.

That was an incomplete response only leaving me with more questions.  If your view is "I could care less what you believe" then why bring it up?  If you do indeed care about educating those of us who might be interested in what you have to say, then it's not too much to ask for you to expound...and to do so with love.  Many times if the messanger is wearing a chip on his shoulder, his message gets lost in delivery.   :2c:

Your hope is nothing of the kind,  if that was your hope you would not try to make is sound like I am insecure, instead you only engage in the same kinds of things you complain about.

You really only support what I have said, you wish to protect your precioncieved notions.

When I say I don't care what you believe,  I say that from the stand point that I am not taking upon myself the responsibility of engaging in debate or discussion with the mindset that I must convince you.

It is up to you to reconsider what you have been told,  finding reason not to is no suprise to me.

Homosexuality condoned by God?  Am I reading this right?

Hows about we take a look at God's order in his principles . . .there is always the argument that if homosexuality were acceptable then there would have been no need of an Eve, God would have just settled with two Adams.  But the command that put lilfe in motion was that man should REPRODUCE and fill the earth.  Two men can not reprodce . . .two women can not reproduce . .thus . . the union of two men or two women is UN-NATURAL.  Forget your "thinking" on word definitions . . .look at the bigger picture.  You can not fulfill God's original order of reproduction if you choose to be a part of the gay lifestyle.  This isn't about condemnation . . . .the truth is, the relationship of a gay person is more about personal appetite and less about godly order.

Interesting thing about your claims that Old Testament doesn't discredit the gay lifestyle . . .ask any general Chrstian on what they thought Sodom was all about, what kind of city was it . . .what were those guys looking to tear Lot's house apart planning on doing with his visitors . . .we read them to be angels . . .  but regardless, I'm sure you've come up with some defense against that as well.  But the interesting part to this is IF God DID approve of people who lived that kind of lifestyle . . .why are there NO examples in Scripture where God raises them up to be used by him, blessed by him or even honored by him???  The fact that there are NO accounts of a gay person having a relationship with God should speak volumes in and of itself . . .if one is willing to be led by Scriptures rather than one's personal tastes.  I'm not after your perspective on what the Bible says . . . you can make it say whatever your pespective sees it to say.

For me, the outward relationship of  man with another man, or a woman with another woman, is merely a reflection of a spiritual perversion of intimacy they have with the Father.  I don't think it's going to change their final destination anymore than an axe-murderer, man's personal gratifcations are still not more powerful than the cross . . .but there are some things that affect our emotional psyche more than other things . . .sexual contact is one of those things . . .it greatly affects our life in this realm more than if . . .say we struggle with swearing or something . . .telling people it's a normal part of a person's nature may be true, in that a married guy still may be tempted to commit adultery . . .but temptation isn't the sin . . .acting on the temptation is where the trouble starts.  Just because a man believes he's attracted to men doesn't mean it's okay to act on those attractions.

If you think being gay is okay, rather than challenge people to come up with Scriptures to disprove your pov . . .how about you put some Scriptures out there to help people see that it's acceptable?  And no cherry picking.

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 08:38:36 PM
Homosexuality condoned by God?  Am I reading this right?

And there is that preconcieved notion right there.  I mean   "God saving all mankind"?   Am I reading this right.   Just read Matthew 25:46.

Quote

Hows about we take a look at God's order in his principles . . .there is always the argument that if homosexuality were acceptable then there would have been no need of an Eve, God would have just settled with two Adams.  But the command that put lilfe in motion was that man should REPRODUCE and fill the earth.  Two men can not reprodce . . .two women can not reproduce . .thus . . the union of two men or two women is UN-NATURAL.  Forget your "thinking" on word definitions . . .look at the bigger picture.  You can not fulfill God's original order of reproduction if you choose to be a part of the gay lifestyle.  This isn't about condemnation . . . .the truth is, the relationship of a gay person is more about personal appetite and less about godly order.

Interesting thing about your claims that Old Testament doesn't discredit the gay lifestyle . . .ask any general Chrstian on what they thought Sodom was all about, what kind of city was it . . .what were those guys looking to tear Lot's house apart planning on doing with his visitors . . .we read them to be angels . . .  but regardless, I'm sure you've come up with some defense against that as well.  But the interesting part to this is IF God DID approve of people who lived that kind of lifestyle . . .why are there NO examples in Scripture where God raises them up to be used by him, blessed by him or even honored by him???  The fact that there are NO accounts of a gay person having a relationship with God should speak volumes in and of itself . . .if one is willing to be led by Scriptures rather than one's personal tastes.  I'm not after your perspective on what the Bible says . . . you can make it say whatever your pespective sees it to say.

For me, the outward relationship of  man with another man, or a woman with another woman, is merely a reflection of a spiritual perversion of intimacy they have with the Father.  I don't think it's going to change their final destination anymore than an axe-murderer, man's personal gratifcations are still not more powerful than the cross . . .but there are some things that affect our emotional psyche more than other things . . .sexual contact is one of those things . . .it greatly affects our life in this realm more than if . . .say we struggle with swearing or something . . .telling people it's a normal part of a person's nature may be true, in that a married guy still may be tempted to commit adultery . . .but temptation isn't the sin . . .acting on the temptation is where the trouble starts.  Just because a man believes he's attracted to men doesn't mean it's okay to act on those attractions.

If you think being gay is okay, rather than challenge people to come up with Scriptures to disprove your pov . . .how about you put some Scriptures out there to help people see that it's acceptable?  And no cherry picking.

I have already explained what I think about the scriptures that are going to apply.


Swearing is a good one,  you can use words to hurt someone and never swear,  I had someone use the F word on me today and I know it was a compliment.

Rather than trying to uphold religious tradition why not deal with what I said about scripture rather than engaging in the same useless arguments of expecting someone to coime up with scripture that satisfies you.

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 08:31:46 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 08:10:12 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:57:25 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Well, that is the inherant fallacy.   You would expect me to provide scripture that says homosexuality is ok therefore protecting your preconcieved notions in your own mind. 

I will in brief point out the problems and what I believe the scriptures are talking about.


In leviticus many of the laws were about cleanliness and hygene.  Homosexuals males do not like it whan I say that they shouldn't have anal sex.  Anal sex is dirty and nasty based upon human hygene, not morality.    Anal sex does not define who a homosexual is.   You can easily be a homosexual and never engage in anal sex.

There is no old testament reference detailing lesbianism in any form.

As far as the new testament verses used to say it is wrong.

Those verses are about spirtual health and behavior towards one another.   Lust is a word that has been associated primarily with sexuality, but lust can be about many things.    And as far as natural affections.

Many assume that if your heterozexual then you can burn with lust and that you cannot exchange natural affections, but that is a lie.   The orpahanges are full proving that heterosexuals have exchanged LOVE for self gratification.

Homosexuality has been painted as inheratly flawed,  religious teachings want you to believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving monogomous relationships  as if looking around the world heterosexuality has proven to be a better example of love or something.

It is up to you if you are going to "reconsider" what you have been told.

I was hoping we could discuss these things without condescension.  From my experience, those who take smug or otherwise volitile attitudes towards others are inherently insecure with their own belief system.

For me to ask for scriptural support of your views shouldn't be met with resistance.  It should be expected, anticipated and with a cheerful heart.  Why?  Because, a person who's beliefs are scripturally sound are eager to share what they have discovered, or what has been revealed to them.

That was an incomplete response only leaving me with more questions.  If your view is "I could care less what you believe" then why bring it up?  If you do indeed care about educating those of us who might be interested in what you have to say, then it's not too much to ask for you to expound...and to do so with love.  Many times if the messanger is wearing a chip on his shoulder, his message gets lost in delivery.   :2c:

Your hope is nothing of the kind,  if that was your hope you would not try to make is sound like I am insecure, instead you only engage in the same kinds of things you complain about.

You really only support what I have said, you wish to protect your precioncieved notions.

When I say I don't care what you believe,  I say that from the stand point that I am not taking upon myself the responsibility of engaging in debate or discussion with the mindset that I must convince you.

It is up to you to reconsider what you have been told,  finding reason not to is no suprise to me.

Paul, you are wrong about me, and you judge me unfairly.  That is certainly your perrogative.  You wouldn't know this but one of our local Mennonite EMS workers "came out".  I just heard about it today.  He is one of my favorite EMS guys, truly wonderful man.  So, I came on here reading, and seen this.  I was like Lord I'm listening.  That was my mindset but you assumed something else. 

And yes, I stick by what I said, those who get defensive about their belief systems tend to be insecure about said belief systems.  That may be the case with you and it may not.  But, what I do know is I am often interested in what you have to say, but the way you deliver your message can be off putting.  There is no need to talk down to other believers.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on March 22, 2011, 09:00:44 PM



You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

When Jesus was approached by the rich man and asked how he might inherit eternal life, how did Jesus respond?

I think there is much confusion about this intertwined relationship of living under grace and living righteously.  Sin is a symptom.  Grace does not justify an "anything goes attitude".  When we have lust, anger, greed etc these are symptoms of a lack of maturity in Christ.  We certainly can't earn our way into the Kingdom of God, but sin can certainly hinder our growth and effectiveness.

Quote from: Lefein on March 22, 2011, 08:10:56 PM
Even if homosexuality is not a sin, it is not necessarily healthy either - just throwing that out there, especially if homosexuality is more or less a symptom of a dysfunctional stimulus (like heterosexual lusts, porn addiction for example, are often a symptom of a complicated dysfunctional issue, of which sin becomes a central theme).

Lust in general, for man or for woman, same-sex or otherwise is sinful because it is harmful.  "Homosexuality = Sin" is a complicated issue because it involves a great many factors, of which "Sin" is a part (though not the whole thing). 

I do want to express that I do not appreciate homosexuality any more than I appreciate mishandled heterosexuality at any rate, but I am not about to judge a person to Hell based on their orientation, I would only express that there "must surely be a better means".  I struggle with Lust (of the heterosexual sort, and terribly so) and surely it is my greatest foe.  But I understand that sins of lust are not something that the religious-caste so easily write of as "an easy peasy superficial issue" the roots that cause lust are deep, complicated, and involve much more than just a wandering eye and a want for pleasure...In my experience my own lusts have brought nothing but horrid pain.  And so the things tainted with lust, find themselves tainted with pain - which renders it (loosely speaking) unhealthy.

Hard to explain I suppose, I just wanted to express the idea that even if Homosexuality is not a "Damnable Sin" as the religious-caste express it being, that does not necessarily mean it is healthy, in much the same way that pre-marital sex might not be a damnable sin (though it is said to be one by that same religious-caste) that does not necessarily mean that pre-marital sex is healthy either.  :2c:

Good post. 

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:17:46 PM
Actually most UR people who take the stance against homosexuality do not realize that how they go about it actually support the idea that all men are not saved,  the same technics of inference and assumption apply.

That is certainly possible.  The thought of homosexuality not being sin would be a very foreign concept to me.  It's not even something I have really pondered.  I have always accepted it as fact.

This is the position I found myself in until relatively recently, just as I had accepted ET as part of the "salvation package" without even thinking about it.  I came to realise that if I was considering a change to my beliefs at least partly because of a challenge to what the words for "hell" and "eternity" etc actually mean, I had to consider that other words might have been mistranslated also. I am grateful to all who are contributing to this discussion; much food for thought.  :thanks:

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 09:46:31 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 08:31:46 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 08:10:12 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:57:25 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:26:47 PM

But, for me to reconsider old assumptions and teachings I would need a case to be made from scripture.  I would invite you to educate us on what you have come to believe.

Well, that is the inherant fallacy.   You would expect me to provide scripture that says homosexuality is ok therefore protecting your preconcieved notions in your own mind. 

I will in brief point out the problems and what I believe the scriptures are talking about.


In leviticus many of the laws were about cleanliness and hygene.  Homosexuals males do not like it whan I say that they shouldn't have anal sex.  Anal sex is dirty and nasty based upon human hygene, not morality.    Anal sex does not define who a homosexual is.   You can easily be a homosexual and never engage in anal sex.

There is no old testament reference detailing lesbianism in any form.

As far as the new testament verses used to say it is wrong.

Those verses are about spirtual health and behavior towards one another.   Lust is a word that has been associated primarily with sexuality, but lust can be about many things.    And as far as natural affections.

Many assume that if your heterozexual then you can burn with lust and that you cannot exchange natural affections, but that is a lie.   The orpahanges are full proving that heterosexuals have exchanged LOVE for self gratification.

Homosexuality has been painted as inheratly flawed,  religious teachings want you to believe that homosexuals are incapable of loving monogomous relationships  as if looking around the world heterosexuality has proven to be a better example of love or something.

It is up to you if you are going to "reconsider" what you have been told.

I was hoping we could discuss these things without condescension.  From my experience, those who take smug or otherwise volitile attitudes towards others are inherently insecure with their own belief system.

For me to ask for scriptural support of your views shouldn't be met with resistance.  It should be expected, anticipated and with a cheerful heart.  Why?  Because, a person who's beliefs are scripturally sound are eager to share what they have discovered, or what has been revealed to them.

That was an incomplete response only leaving me with more questions.  If your view is "I could care less what you believe" then why bring it up?  If you do indeed care about educating those of us who might be interested in what you have to say, then it's not too much to ask for you to expound...and to do so with love.  Many times if the messanger is wearing a chip on his shoulder, his message gets lost in delivery.   :2c:

Your hope is nothing of the kind,  if that was your hope you would not try to make is sound like I am insecure, instead you only engage in the same kinds of things you complain about.

You really only support what I have said, you wish to protect your precioncieved notions.

When I say I don't care what you believe,  I say that from the stand point that I am not taking upon myself the responsibility of engaging in debate or discussion with the mindset that I must convince you.

It is up to you to reconsider what you have been told,  finding reason not to is no suprise to me.

Paul, you are wrong about me, and you judge me unfairly.  That is certainly your perrogative.  You wouldn't know this but one of our local Mennonite EMS workers "came out".  I just heard about it today.  He is one of my favorite EMS guys, truly wonderful man.  So, I came on here reading, and seen this.  I was like Lord I'm listening.  That was my mindset but you assumed something else. 

And yes, I stick by what I said, those who get defensive about their belief systems tend to be insecure about said belief systems.  That may be the case with you and it may not.  But, what I do know is I am often interested in what you have to say, but the way you deliver your message can be off putting.  There is no need to talk down to other believers.

What appears to me is all I have to respond to, whether I should or not is a matter that I sometimes have to deal with.  However if your really open hearted then you would not be trying to use how I deliver anything as a reason not to consider. 

So what I believe about what you said about the EMS guy is irrelevant.  If you believe "God" has spoken to you in that regaurd, then pursue that and leave me out of your excuse list.

For me the story about the EMS worker was very relevant.  The reason?  I claim to be open, just today I made that claim.  I am willing to reconsider my old ideas.  The way God speaks to me, might not be the way he speaks to you.  Maybe it's because I'm hard headed but God often brings several things within a similar theme before my eyes...and says lets deal with this.  It might have to do with what you are speaking about, or merely my attitudes towards new ideas or posters/believers/nonbelievers I deem difficult.  Either way, if you have something other than a personal attack to speak about, I am listening.  If not, then that is certainly your perrogative.

As for what you delivered, I didn't really read anything of substance.  If you were open I would have liked to ask more questions and to see how they relate to Romans 1.  But, I don't believe you can debate (at least at today) in a healthy fashion so I think it's best we leave it be.  If you ever want to pick this up in PM I will be very open to what you have to say.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:09:04 PM
Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Nothing in the greek is explicit to sexuality in those verses,  these are additions in translations and only shows the predisposed belief and not scriptural clarity on the matter of homosexuality.   Homosexualaity is an assumption that many people think is safe because they believe there is a rational unbiblical reason for homosexuality to be wrong.

You just can't prove homosexuality to be wrong with scripture, cannot be done without inference and assumption.

Sorry but there is an argument against homosexuality. Allow me to explain.

When a man has sexual relations with a woman, they in effect become one. That which was seperated becomes whole, for this reason man and woman leave their mother and father and then join in marriage.

When a man has sexual relations with a man, or woman with woman they are in effect violating this agreement and change the rules that God gave. In effect because they are having sexual relations outside of marriage, they are commiting adultery.

I think its ok though for a man to kiss another man as the apostle Paul said to greet one another with a holy kiss.

Quote from: Lefein on March 22, 2011, 08:10:56 PM
Even if homosexuality is not a sin, it is not necessarily healthy either

There are many heterosexual relationships that are based upon emotionally unstable people.

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 10:31:24 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 07:09:04 PM
Romans 1

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Nothing in the greek is explicit to sexuality in those verses,  these are additions in translations and only shows the predisposed belief and not scriptural clarity on the matter of homosexuality.   Homosexualaity is an assumption that many people think is safe because they believe there is a rational unbiblical reason for homosexuality to be wrong.

You just can't prove homosexuality to be wrong with scripture, cannot be done without inference and assumption.

Sorry but there is an argument against homosexuality. Allow me to explain.

When a man has sexual relations with a woman, they in effect become one. That which was seperated becomes whole, for this reason man and woman leave their mother and father and then join in marriage.

When a man has sexual relations with a man, or woman with woman they are in effect violating this agreement and change the rules that God gave. In effect because they are having sexual relations outside of marriage, they are commiting adultery.

I think its ok though for a man to kiss another man as the apostle Paul said to greet one another with a holy kiss.

Explain hermaphrodites.  Real ones, not the ones who have has sex changes.


What makes one female or male.   What can make a father or a mother, biology or love?

Are hermaphrodites created, designed to be that way by God? Or is it a condition caused by a fallen world?

Sorry Paul, but that's not an excuse.  We've all been born in to sin, but that doesn't make sin acceptable . . . just because one is prone to a certain lifestyle, regardless of their physical make-up, that shouldn't be the jutification that it must be okay because they wre like that for a long time or from birth or whathaveyou.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 10:42:48 PM


Explain hermaphrodites.  Real ones, not the ones who have has sex changes.

Good question.

Should a hermaphrodite marry a man or a woman?

If I'm not mistaken, they can't reproduce can they?  Are they not sterile?

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 10:49:20 PM
Are hermaphrodites created, designed to be that way by God? Or is it a condition caused by a fallen world?

They are human beings who had no control over their physical attributes and gender specific scriptures apply to them as well.   The person emotionally will be who they are if they are allowed that freedom.

So, what gender must a hermaphrodite be,  even if you use that argument, are you then going to make tyhem an outcast while excusing yourself from the condition of sin?

Well of course you might because you need homosexuality to be wrong.

Nathan, regardless of fertility, should the church allow them to marry?

Yes Paul you have gone from saying that homosexulity is not a sin, and switched arguments, to I assume, saying that they cannot help being born that way. However if you are saying that homosexuality is a natural design by God and/now also you argue hermaphrodite, then you can show me some scriptures?.

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 10:54:51 PM
If I'm not mistaken, they can't reproduce can they?  Are they not sterile?

You are mistaken, some can,  perhaps not in every case,  however many non hermaphodite females are sterile from birth.


Many Christian females who are sterile also are burdened with the prospect of not fulfilling Gods words to reproduce, unfortunatly this is from religious nonsense that use those verses thoughtlessly.

\

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 10:57:58 PM
Yes Paul you have gone from saying that homosexulity is not a sin, and switched arguments, to I assume, saying that they cannot help being born that way. However if you are saying that homosexuality is a natural design by God and/now also you argue hermaphrodite, then you can show me some scriptures?.

I do not need to show any verses any more than I need to show them concerning a midget.


Your argument has the problem, not mine.

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
Sorry Paul, but that's not an excuse.  We've all been born in to sin, but that doesn't make sin acceptable . . . just because one is prone to a certain lifestyle, regardless of their physical make-up, that shouldn't be the jutification that it must be okay because they wre like that for a long time or from birth or whathaveyou.

I was born with a predisposition towards addictive behaviors.  This is part of my genetic make up.  It's been passed down in my family for generations.  Does that mean I can live as a drunkard?  Fortunately for me, God's word is clear...no I can't.  Drunkeness lead me to the doorway of death.  Fortunately, we do serve God who can change a person's most intimate workings.

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
Sorry Paul, but that's not an excuse.  We've all been born in to sin, but that doesn't make sin acceptable . . . just because one is prone to a certain lifestyle, regardless of their physical make-up, that shouldn't be the jutification that it must be okay because they wre like that for a long time or from birth or whathaveyou.

If I said something you agree with but you didn't like how I said it, will you then agree with someone that uses how I said something as a reason not to believe something?

You can disagree with me, but if what I have said is true, how I say it is irrelevant.   

A lot of people who do not want to go to believe in God use that argument.    This has no bearing upon whether what they reject is true or untrue.

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 11:01:05 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
Sorry Paul, but that's not an excuse.  We've all been born in to sin, but that doesn't make sin acceptable . . . just because one is prone to a certain lifestyle, regardless of their physical make-up, that shouldn't be the jutification that it must be okay because they wre like that for a long time or from birth or whathaveyou.

I was born with a predisposition towards addictive behaviors.  This is part of my genetic make up.  It's been passed down in my family for generations.  Does that mean I can live as a drunkard?  Fortunately for me, God's word is clear...no I can't.  Drunkeness lead me to the doorway of death.  Fortunately, we do serve God who can change a person's most intimate workings.

Drunkeness has no association with homosexuality.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 10:55:25 PM

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 10:49:20 PM
Are hermaphrodites created, designed to be that way by God? Or is it a condition caused by a fallen world?

They are human beings who had no control over their physical attributes and gender specific scriptures apply to them as well.   The person emotionally will be who they are if they are allowed that freedom.

So, what gender must a hermaphrodite be,  even if you use that argument, are you then going to make tyhem an outcast while excusing yourself from the condition of sin?


So now you say that they are sinners, please make your mind up? I don't play games.
TT


Well of course you might because you need homosexuality to be wrong.

No your the one who needs it to be right, my view is that it is no different to any other sin and with Gods grace can be overcome. My worry is that good men are drawn into it and do harm to themselves, thinking they are gay when they could be happy with a woman or to be celibate. Homosexuality is a complex issue, to say to all gay men that they should just accept it I find defeatist, as I found that many men hate being gay and want to stop the addiction, if the church helps drug addicts, should not gay men be given help also.
TT

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 11:08:45 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 11:01:05 PM

Quote from: Nathan on March 22, 2011, 10:49:39 PM
Sorry Paul, but that's not an excuse.  We've all been born in to sin, but that doesn't make sin acceptable . . . just because one is prone to a certain lifestyle, regardless of their physical make-up, that shouldn't be the jutification that it must be okay because they wre like that for a long time or from birth or whathaveyou.

I was born with a predisposition towards addictive behaviors.  This is part of my genetic make up.  It's been passed down in my family for generations.  Does that mean I can live as a drunkard?  Fortunately for me, God's word is clear...no I can't.  Drunkeness lead me to the doorway of death.  Fortunately, we do serve God who can change a person's most intimate workings.

Drunkeness has no association with homosexuality.

They both have a genetic predisposition towards attractions, and personality types.  I was saying, to be born one way doesn't validate feeding it.  Each of us have our own burdens that need lifted.  Some of them, we were born with.  So, is genetics, being born with an excuse?  I would suggest not.  For me, I don't really buy into the philosophical arguments surrounding homosexuality.  I do listen to the scriptures on this subject and in the english they are quite clear.  With that said, I have never looked into the scriptures on these subjects in the original texts.  That was the information I was hoping to obtain.  If words have been mistranslated, or historical context has been overlooked I am eager to explore such issues. 

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 11:01:05 PM
I was born with a predisposition towards addictive behaviors.  This is part of my genetic make up.  It's been passed down in my family for generations.  Does that mean I can live as a drunkard?  Fortunately for me, God's word is clear...no I can't.  Drunkeness lead me to the doorway of death.  Fortunately, we do serve God who can change a person's most intimate workings.

I agree, there's a spiritual, scriptural "balance".  I have many ugly things I'm predisposed to, that I can trace back their thread in my life.  They need to be put to death and will be as I look to Him, not coddle myself.  There's sin to recognize from conviction and the scriptures and seek deliverance from (that's NOT judging or attempting to live by the law), while not being works-based, judgmental, and blind to much other than tradition/orthodoxy.  I believe we can swing so wildly from one side to the other, that we can pass up the truth in the middle. 

The same scriptures (expressly Apostle Paul) that say don't judge, love, we're saved by grace;  also say don't sin more so that grace may abound ("God forbid"!), points out many specific sins - lust, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, hate, envyings, strife... and admonishes us to not live according to these works of the flesh.

If we go to an "I'm OK, You're OK" mentality, then IMO, we're dismissing much of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives individually and in the life of the body, and we may as well toss out huge chunks of the New Testament as being irrelevant, deny that it's sharper than a two-edged sword "cutting asunder", and just go with a feel-good message that tickles our ears. 

That's my understanding.  Grace and carrying the cross to the death of our carnal "flesh" are intimately woven together, not disparate one of the other.   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: jabcat on March 22, 2011, 11:28:19 PM

Quote from: shawn on March 22, 2011, 11:01:05 PM
I was born with a predisposition towards addictive behaviors.  This is part of my genetic make up.  It's been passed down in my family for generations.  Does that mean I can live as a drunkard?  Fortunately for me, God's word is clear...no I can't.  Drunkeness lead me to the doorway of death.  Fortunately, we do serve God who can change a person's most intimate workings.

I agree, there's a spiritual, scriptural "balance".  I have many ugly things I'm predisposed to, that I can trace back their thread in my life.  They need to be put to death and will be as I look to Him, not coddle myself.  There's sin to recognize from conviction and the scriptures and seek deliverance from (that's NOT judging or attempting to live by the law), while not being works-based, judgmental, and blind to about everything other than tradition/orthodoxy.  I believe we can swing so wildly from one side to the other, that we can pass up the truth in the middle. 

The same scriptures (expressly Apostle Paul) that say don't judge, love, we're saved by grace;  also say don't sin more so that grace may abound ("God forbid"!), points out many specific sins - lust, adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, hate, envyings, etc., etc., and admonishes us to not live according to these works of the flesh.

If we go to an "I'm OK, You're OK" mentality, then IMO, we're dismissing much of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives individually and in the life of the body, and we may as well toss out half the New Testament as being irrelevant, deny that it's sharper than a two-edged sword "cutting asunder", and just go with a feel-good message that tickles our ears. 

That's my understanding.  Grace and carrying the cross to the death of our carnal "flesh" are intimately woven together, not disparate one of the other.   :HeartThrob:

Good post.  Today that is how I understand it.  We have been told not to even have a hint of sexual impurity.  Wow.  Not even a hint?  What about a little peek?  I know women have these same battles, but I speak from a man's perspective...that is a hard thing to swallow.  It seems almost unattainable.

We are called to lives of purity, righteousness all under this umbrella of grace and God's sovereignty.  What a mystery.  I agree it's so easy to become legalistic, or fall under the mentality that everyone and everything is ok.

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
No your the one who needs it to be right, my view is that it is no different to any other sin and with Gods grace can be overcome. My worry is that good men are drawn into it and do harm to themselves, thinking they are gay when they could be happy with a woman or to be celibate. Homosexuality is a complex issue, to say to all gay men that they should just accept it I find defeatist, as I found that many men hate being gay and want to stop the addiction, if the church helps drug addicts, should not gay men be given help also.
TT

Many heterosexuals are drawn into unhealthy promiscuous behavior.    That is also a complex issue.

Quote
There are many heterosexual relationships that are based upon emotionally unstable people.

Yes, indeed there are.  But that wasn't entirely my point.  I was speaking in general.  :thumbsup:

The Homosexuality issue is a thing that I do not like to get into, namely because it deals with a subject that I am susceptible to sinning in (not Homosexuality, but sexuality in general) - in effect I am not in a position to tackle the issue, because it is a contact sport, and I do not have the proper armour to safely traverse the irradiated battle field that sexuality is, for me at any rate.

I do not appreciate homosexuality, for the sheer sake of its general negative trend healthwise.  Less "profitable" for the "risk" - I find it to be bad stewardship, compared to the other options anyway.  Any sexual deviance can lead to health problems, heterosexual ones especially in fact, as they are the most common.  But a healthy homosexual relationship in my opinion is a lesser option (fulfillment wise, spiritual wise, emotional wise, positivity wise) than a healthy heterosexual one.

Quote from: Lefein on March 22, 2011, 11:47:34 PM
The Homosexuality issue is a thing that I do not like to get into

Yet, here you are.

QuoteI do not appreciate homosexuality, for the sheer sake of its general negative trend healthwise.

Heterosexuality is riddled with unhealthy acts , and the association is simple.  There is no case that can be made concerning a "greater" rsk or a "lesser" option when talking about those who stay in monogomous relationships committed for life.

Several  heterosexuals I know have stds some of those they will have for life.   What was it about heterosexuality that was more favorable in those cases?   Not really anything that I can see, both of them that I know stemmed from emotional problems,  but they were heterosexuals and not Gay so I guess as they deal with their uncurable std, they can find solice.

QuoteYet, here you are.

Specifics vs. General Opinion.  I'm not in a proper position to get into a thorough, exhaustive, indepth study on the issue of sexuality, homo, or hetero; but I do feel capable of giving my general current opinion.  Is this understandable?  I don't feel comfortable digging into the nitty gritty details of sex, and the Bible's opinion of it.

QuoteHeterosexuality is riddled with unhealthy acts , and the association is simple.  There is no case that can be made concerning a "greater" rsk or a "lesser" option when talking about those who stay in monogomous relationships committed for life.

You've missed my point I think.  There is far more involved in a relationship than the monogamous sexuality of it.  A homosexual relationship as far as I can see, in my opinion, is not the best available option.

QuoteSeveral  heterosexuals I know have stds some of those they will have for life.   What was it about heterosexuality that was more favorable in those cases?   Not really anything that I can see, both of them that I know stemmed from emotional problems,  but they were heterosexuals and not Gay so I guess as they deal with their uncurable std, they can find solice.

I didn't say heterosexuals were immune to detrimental effects in deviant heterosexual practices; infact I've done my best to emphasise that heterosexual deviance is just as unhealthy, if not more because it is more common.

But none the less, I don't believe homosexuality is pure, good, and right on that same token.  STD's or not.

God created Adam then he created Eve to be his help mate, God didn't create another man for Adam or another woman for Eve, so the ideal and best partner is one of the opposite sex, else God made a mistake.

If sex is ok with two men how about man and beast, this goes on all the time, why isn't this just as ok as homosexual tendencies. Not much difference as far as sex goes. Some people are attracted to animals does that make it ok?  I saw this man and woman on a TV show a while back and the woman had a great dane as her partner, the man had a horse as his.

(Lev. 18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind iit is abomination.
(Lev. 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I know we are not under the law now and Paul said every thing was lawful unto him but not everything was expedient. I see this as not being expedient. God told Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth, two men cannot do this. Two men cannot have children, actually they just don't fit together, if you know what I mean?

Just because I don't see homosexuality as a good thing, doesn't mean I think I am better than they are. There is a reason and a purpose for all things and by these homosexuals we must all learn something that we otherwise would not learn. I think this is the main reason for all things is learning. There is male and female in all thing this is how God designed it to be.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2011, 12:18:46 AM
God created Adam then he created Eve to be his help mate, God didn't create another man for Adam or another woman for Eve, so the ideal and best partner is one of the opposite sex, else God made a mistake.

The ideal partner is who you can be happy spending the rest of your life with, I know miserable heterosexual couples that are far from the ideal relationship.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 12:32:42 AM

Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2011, 12:18:46 AM
God created Adam then he created Eve to be his help mate, God didn't create another man for Adam or another woman for Eve, so the ideal and best partner is one of the opposite sex, else God made a mistake.

The ideal partner is who you can be happy spending the rest of your life with, I know miserable heterosexual couples that are far from the ideal relationship.

On an intellectual level that makes sense.  Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere in scripture that is supported.

I think that the common ground here, is that any relationship that is essentially, or elementally poor, and on a negative or detrimental trend (and will continue that trend indefinitely) is harmful.

Quote from: Lefein on March 23, 2011, 12:14:15 AM

QuoteYet, here you are.

Specifics vs. General Opinion.  I'm not in a proper position to get into a thorough, exhaustive, indepth study on the issue of sexuality, homo, or hetero; but I do feel capable of giving my general current opinion.  Is this understandable?  I don't feel comfortable digging into the nitty gritty details of sex, and the Bible's opinion of it.

We are beyond the general nature of things.  The general nature of things proves that heterosexuality is no better than homosexuality in terms of general behavior.

Heterosexuality has filled orphanages and homes with unwanted children, spread disease and broken hearts.
Homosexuality has done the same thing.  Well,  not the unwanted children thing.

Monogomous relationships that are loving with two poeple committed to one another for life exist from both orientations and cause none of those problems in our society.

QuoteYou've missed my point I think.  There is far more involved in a relationship than the monogamous sexuality of it.  A homosexual relationship as far as I can see, in my opinion, is not the best available option.

I do not believe I missed the point.  If you are going beyond scripture and morality then we can start talking about how they might be treated in society.   Well, mixed race heterosexual marriages have had their struggles,  but if two people really love one another then coping out to societal or family approval, may be better for the moment, but it is not necessarily ideal for someones spirit.

If I caved in to that,  I would not have married my wife,  I got no support from a lot of my family, some flat looked upon my wife as bad simply because she was older than me.  So what would have been ideal for me?   Forsaking my love for something "more ideal".  Not me,  it was more ideal for me to forsake my personal comfort when interacting with my family than to appease my families dislike.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 12:35:21 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 12:32:42 AM

Quote from: CHB on March 23, 2011, 12:18:46 AM
God created Adam then he created Eve to be his help mate, God didn't create another man for Adam or another woman for Eve, so the ideal and best partner is one of the opposite sex, else God made a mistake.

The ideal partner is who you can be happy spending the rest of your life with, I know miserable heterosexual couples that are far from the ideal relationship.

On an intellectual level that makes sense.  Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere in scripture that is supported.

Love is presented in many scriptures,  a loveless relationship in any orientation is not more ideal than one that is full of love.   In fact scripture says if you do right but do not have love then it is worth nothing.  Scripture absolutely supports committed love filled relationships.

Quote from: Lefein on March 23, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
I think that the common ground here, is that any relationship that is essentially, or elementally poor, and on a negative or detrimental trend (and will continue that trend indefinitely) is harmful.

No argument there, I have seen abuse and failure from both orientations, I have seen love and success in both as well.

Quote from: Lefein on March 23, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
I think that the common ground here, is that any relationship that is essentially, or elementally poor, and on a negative or detrimental trend (and will continue that trend indefinitely) is harmful.

Yes, I believe we are all saying that. It seems to me, however, that a number of people think homosexual relationships are always, by nature, poor and on a negative or detrimental trend. I don't think I agree with that.

Quote from: Lefein on March 23, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
I think that the common ground here, is that any relationship that is essentially, or elementally poor, and on a negative or detrimental trend (and will continue that trend indefinitely) is harmful.

I can certainly see that, and yet see some of the points of those who support a loving monogomous homosexual relationship.  But, here is the problem, I don't decide right and wrong.  God has set the standards within scripture. 

I think one of the points missed here isn't just the health, and the detreimental trends which imo can be easily debated on either side.  It's what the Bible says about the relationship between husband and wife.  Look no further than the book of Song of Songs.  Not only is this a story about the love and intimate sexual relationship with a man and woman but I also believe there is further symbolism extending to Christ and his bride.  The marriage of a man and a woman is a natural reflection of the spiritual.  This symbolism leads us back to Christ.  It's God's best for us, he imbedded the truth about his union with his people within the very fabric of a husband and wife relationship.  It's the ideal relationship of intimacy.

Quote from: Miriam on March 23, 2011, 12:50:38 AM

Quote from: Lefein on March 23, 2011, 12:35:53 AM
I think that the common ground here, is that any relationship that is essentially, or elementally poor, and on a negative or detrimental trend (and will continue that trend indefinitely) is harmful.

Yes, I believe we are all saying that. It seems to me, however, that a number of people think homosexual relationships are always, by nature, poor and on a negative or detrimental trend. I don't think I agree with that.

Miriam, did you come to that conclusion scripturally or through revelation.  If it's scriptural, please help me out.  Why do you believe homosexuality isn't a sin.

** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 22, 2011, 11:42:16 PM

Quote from: thinktank on March 22, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
No your the one who needs it to be right, my view is that it is no different to any other sin and with Gods grace can be overcome. My worry is that good men are drawn into it and do harm to themselves, thinking they are gay when they could be happy with a woman or to be celibate. Homosexuality is a complex issue, to say to all gay men that they should just accept it I find defeatist, as I found that many men hate being gay and want to stop the addiction, if the church helps drug addicts, should not gay men be given help also.
TT

Many heterosexuals are drawn into unhealthy promiscuous behavior.    That is also a complex issue.

I think sexuality in these days is a giant mess, we need God to work hard and produce a miracle in this area, to offer solutions and freedom. It's almost as if a giant selction of forbidden fruit has been flung in front of mankind, that previously was not so extensive, e.g pornography.

From what I have experienced though, most people in society regard homosexuality as worse of a sin than others e.g porn. The reason why homosexuals are treated as more sinfull than say an adulterer, is because most people find homosexuality a strange act. When people are freaked out by a certain behaviour that is just the way it is, people don't like seeing people walking naked on the streets and neither do they like seeing two men together. Some people enjoy seeing people naked, nudists etc, but these people are a minority. It seems to me that homosexual groups demand that people accept their behaviour as normal and grow angry when they do not. This is the problem of living in a free society when people want different things and clash with each other, but in my opinion I think homosexuals have been given a lot of rights, too much in my opinion and mad things like this happen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12598896 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12598896)

Is it a fair society when a minority of people get what they want at the expense of all others?

How far does this sexual stuff dwelve into? I mean where does it end? Should men marry 3 wifes, because they are inclined that way to want more than one woman? Should we be allowed to marry our friends? Our pets? Our automobiles?

Quote from: jabcat on March 22, 2011, 11:28:19 PM
If we go to an "I'm OK, You're OK" mentality, then IMO, we're dismissing much of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives individually and in the life of the body, and we may as well toss out huge chunks of the New Testament as being irrelevant, deny that it's sharper than a two-edged sword "cutting asunder", and just go with a feel-good message that tickles our ears. 

I agree,  that is why I have brought up committed monogomous relationships.  I do not see God condoning promiscuity from any orientations and it IS promiscuity in both orientations that cause the problems.  You can prove with facts the problems caused by promiscuity.   You will be hard pressed to find these same problem in monogomous committed relationships, that at least begin with as much insight to the future as heterosexuals engage in  (please do not look at divorce rates and abortions among those though, it might turn out to be a bad example that I have used)

One problem I see however is that homosexuality is inherantly linked to adultery and promiscuity.   That right there is simply untrue.   A homosexual couple living together in most places cannot get married, so therefore a Christian has no proper parallel to use.

I find many homosexuals desire to be recognized as married couples thought provoking.   We can associate heterosexual promiscuity with the lack of wanting to get married rather than a desire for it.

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 12:57:18 AM
** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

And this is where I stand on every issue.  What do the scriptures say about this subject?  In the English, it's very clear to me.  But, I admit I have not seen a debate from the Greek and Hebrew on the subject.  For me, the belief that homosexuality is a sin is not something I'm unwilling to part with.  But, for me to do so it would have to be fundamentally scripturally sound.

I don't think we should condone any sin.  Heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, or nonsexual.  Those can be subcategories of what's really a main subject, i.e., Sin.   I have several I struggle with and need to constantly look to the Lord for deliverance, for His grace to "be sufficient"..but not to just cover me, but to cleanse me. 

Inside us, and then around us, salt and light changes things. 

Quote
We are beyond the general nature of things.  The general nature of things proves that heterosexuality is no better than homosexuality in terms of general behavior.

At the point the discussion gets into the graphic details of homosexual, or even heterosexual relationships, especially of the sexual nature - I will need to leave it.  I do not think we've gotten to that point, and so for me it is still in the region of "general opinion" without detailed expertise and graphic thesis involved.

QuoteHeterosexuality has filled orphanages and homes with unwanted children, spread disease and broken hearts.
Homosexuality has done the same thing.  Well,  not the unwanted children thing.

I don't think this is what we are arguing.  It is not what I am arguing at any rate.  I am arguing that faced with the two choices, and the factors involved - a homosexual 'marriage' is the lesser option compared to a heterosexual 'marriage'.  An opinion which I derive from scripture (Man and Woman, Adam and Eve) but even aside from scripture there are other reasons that are common sense in a certain fashion.

Men and Women are, naturally meant for one another.  Certain parts are not...commonly meant...to go certain places...not in any...regular sense of its application...

QuoteMonogomous relationships that are loving with two poeple committed to one another for life exist from both orientations and cause none of those problems in our society.

Yes, and I am not one to insist that relationships are to be purely utilitarian - IE: "for the raisin of babies, and the curbin of that ol' devil's flame in th' loins, and the makin of sammiches in th' kitchen"  God forbid.  But I can't help but feel that there is something that is not a part of God's greater intentions when it comes to a person seeking their mate - for that person to choose the same sex, solely on that fact that they are of the same sex.  Again, it is hard to explain.

QuoteI do not believe I missed the point.  If you are going beyond scripture and morality then we can start talking about how they might be treated in society.   Well, mixed race heterosexual marriages have had their struggles,  but if two people really love one another then coping out to societal or family approval, may be better for the moment, but it is not necessarily ideal for someones spirit.

I'm not dealing with how they'll be treated.  I'm dealing with what is best for the individuals specifically in the relationships, as far as my opinion is able to carry that concept of what is "ideal".

QuoteIf I caved in to that,  I would not have married my wife,  I got no support from a lot of my family, some flat looked upon my wife as bad simply because she was older than me.  So what would have been ideal for me?   Forsaking my love for something "more ideal".  Not me,  it was more ideal for me to forsake my personal comfort when interacting with my family than to appease my families dislike.

I've not implied that you should do any of this, nor have I suggested any ideal specifically for you.  Except, that you have a wife - she's female.  For all of my concerns, you have the ideal as much as you can have it.

QuoteNo argument there, I have seen abuse and failure from both orientations, I have seen love and success in both as well.

I am one of the abused.  On the heterosexual side.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:03:05 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 12:57:18 AM
** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

And this is where I stand on every issue.  What do the scriptures say about this subject?  In the English, it's very clear to me.  But, I admit I have not seen a debate from the Greek and Hebrew on the subject.  For me, the belief that homosexuality is a sin is not something I'm unwilling to part with.  But, for me to do so it would have to be fundamentally scripturally sound.

My understanding is that it's there - in the original languages.  Some go to great lengths to explain it away, and attempt to make the words mean other things.  I posted once earlier in another thread, and then repeated in this thread several posts back.  From the most literal English translations available, including one from the Koine Greek, the words specifically are about homosexuality.  I also presented where Apostle Paul taught against same sex relationships without even using those specific words.  That's why I said earlier most walk away believing what they already believed, and God will need to do the rest.  The problem as I see it is, there may be some who are vulnerable, really searching, who can be mislead.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:03:05 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 12:57:18 AM
** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

And this is where I stand on every issue.  What do the scriptures say about this subject?  In the English, it's very clear to me.  But, I admit I have not seen a debate from the Greek and Hebrew on the subject.  For me, the belief that homosexuality is a sin is not something I'm unwilling to part with.  But, for me to do so it would have to be fundamentally scripturally sound.

2 different categories expressed here in the Greek, in the NT;

Be not deceived, neither ...effeminate [Gk: malakos-catamite/boy with man sex] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

"Be not deceived, neither ...abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: arsenokoites-sodomites/male bed partners/male-liers] shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).

Some of the other passages without "those particular words"...in Romans 1

"to dishonor their own bodies between themselves"
"women did change the natural use into that which is against nature"
"men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men"

Quote from: thinktank on March 23, 2011, 12:57:47 AM

Is it a fair society when a minority of people get what they want at the expense of all others?

I don't know, I'm sure we could investigate this issue more.  Would you want kids to be in a foster home that taught their kids white supremist views?   Isn't it bad enough that their own natural born kids will be taught those views, why should we let some other kid be when we do not have to allow it.

Quote
How far does this sexual stuff dwelve into? I mean where does it end? Should men marry 3 wifes, because they are inclined that way to want more than one woman? Should we be allowed to marry our friends? Our pets? Our automobiles?

Marrying friends?  I married my best friend and she still is.    The issue of pets and cars ect is easy really, it is not that hard to define those lines.  Pedophiles have no case because we CAN legally draw a line of consent.  Same with under age girls and men,  there might be girls who are mature enough to make a decision to marry at 13 but there are enough that aren't that we can safely draw a line to where someone is mentally capable of giving consent.  An animal is not capable of giving consent no matter how aware or smart it may be.   A CAR cannot give consent.  Even arguments made perhaps in movies over artificial intelligents and "learning computers" it really is easy,  man designed in a system that mimics human behavior, no matter how convincing it may be.  Those system are increasingly convincing, and as time goes on I have no doubt that at some point there may be androids that for all intense purposes could not be distiguished from a human being.   Maybe then, if you cannot tell the difference, then maybe it would be capable of calculating and giving consent.   However, as it stands right now, those lines are not hard to draw,  when those lines are hard, we can talk about that.

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:09:21 AM

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:03:05 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 12:57:18 AM
** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

And this is where I stand on every issue.  What do the scriptures say about this subject?  In the English, it's very clear to me.  But, I admit I have not seen a debate from the Greek and Hebrew on the subject.  For me, the belief that homosexuality is a sin is not something I'm unwilling to part with.  But, for me to do so it would have to be fundamentally scripturally sound.

My understanding is that it's there - in the original languages.  Some go to great lengths to explain it away, and attempt to make the words mean other things.  I posted once earlier in another thread, and then repeated in this thread several posts back.  From the most literal English translations available, including one from the Koine Greek, the words specifically are about homosexuality.  I also presented where Apostle Paul taught against same sex relationships without even using those specific words.  That's why I said earlier most walk away believing what they already believed, and God will need to do the rest.  The problem as I see it is, there may be some who are vulnerable, really searching, who can be mislead.

I hear your fears, and have some of those myself.  For me, I believe God is the protector and developer of my growth and knowledge.  I do not fear seeking out, as he has the ability to reel me back in.  If we are truly seeking God's face in these difficult subjects will he reject us?  Will he lead us astray?  I think not.  When we are mislead, I believe it's because we desire to be mislead.  There is something within us that wants to believe it a certain way and we swallow anything that feeds that need.  It's why I had been so cautious with UR.  I wanted to believe it so bad that I wondered if I was chasing my own desires rather than truth.  I no longer believe that.  I believe I was led to the truth. 

Here it is from The Christian Bible (1991), translated from the oldest available manuscripts in the Koine Greek - much of The Christian Bible admittedly resulted in different beliefs than what some of the translators originally believed prior to entering the translation task.

Why don't you just rather let yourselves be injured?  Why don't you just rather let yourselves be cheated?  Rather, you are injuring and cheating others and doing this to your brothers and sisters!  Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;  neither those who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse, nor those who are idol worshipers, nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals...  I Cor. 6

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:09:21 AM

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:03:05 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 12:57:18 AM
** Was typing this in response to Shawn's and Miriam's posts when Shawn posted in the meantime.


Yes, as far I'm concerned, this isn't primarily a sociological issue.  What say the scriptures?  (Translations, revelation, and accurately dividing the Word included) Who gets to decide?  God, or us?  IMO, any sociological or even what we may consider "moral" arguments are secondary to scriptural and spiritual.

I certainlly believe it's great to reconsider things.  But I don't believe in either going against the revealed scriptures, or trying to find some "comfortable" or convenient way around them - or necessarily to what "makes sense" to us.  (The [carnal] mind is enmity against God).   I've done that many times, and it's NEVER worked.  My conscience condemned me, the Holy Spirit convicts me, and I maintain "what says the Lord"?  All else is secondary and can be used as a diversion.   :2c:

And this is where I stand on every issue.  What do the scriptures say about this subject?  In the English, it's very clear to me.  But, I admit I have not seen a debate from the Greek and Hebrew on the subject.  For me, the belief that homosexuality is a sin is not something I'm unwilling to part with.  But, for me to do so it would have to be fundamentally scripturally sound.

My understanding is that it's there - in the original languages.  Some go to great lengths to explain it away, and attempt to make the words mean other things.  I posted once earlier in another thread, and then repeated in this thread several posts back.  From the most literal English translations available, including one from the Koine Greek, the words specifically are about homosexuality.  I also presented where Apostle Paul taught against same sex relationships without even using those specific words.  That's why I said earlier most walk away believing what they already believed, and God will need to do the rest.  The problem as I see it is, there may be some who are vulnerable, really searching, who can be mislead.

Actually those words are not inherantly about homosexuality,  a male prostitute is a very specific act, rather than a sexual orientations. 

In the new testament is the closest you get and you do not have to be gay to be a male postitute.   You also do not have to be a homosexual to pervert the natural use of a woman.  A man who simply wants to use a woman for self gratification has done that.   Women can use women and men can use men sexually and loveless , rather than true love and care. 

I know a man who just does that,  he can't get it with a woman, so it is easy to find a male parner to just get a sexual release.  And my friend certainly doesn't like it when I say that is something that is best not done.   However that problem is not specific to homosexual behavior. 

And really, there is no great lengths gone about anything.

No Christian has ever been able to associate the old testament scripture to lesbianism,  so if you can now would be the time.  Because it is easy to see that it is not about lesbianism it is about a male sex act that even many homosexuals will not engage in.   

I disagree Paul.  I don't think that's correct.  I also don't see how you can explain away the other things Apostle Paul had to say without even using those specific words.

I don't want to become contentious...sorry, I'm removing this post...   :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:22:03 AM
Here it is from The Christian Bible (1991), translated from the oldest available manuscripts in the Koine Greek - much of The Christian Bible admittedly resulted in different beliefs than what some of the translators originally believed prior to entering the translation task.

Why don't you just rather let yourselves be injured?  Why don't you just rather let yourselves be cheated?  Rather, you are injuring and cheating others and doing this to your brothers and sisters!  Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;  neither those who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse, nor those who are idol worshipers, nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals...  I Cor. 6

I wonder outloud.  If this translation states homosexuals, but yet we are speaking about prostitution, or just using someone for sexual release, then why use the word homosexuals.  Why not just say prostitution is sin?  Using people sexually is a sin?  Why does Paul speak specifically about male male relations?

My previous post amended.  It can be so hard remembering "in honor, preferring one another".  I wasn't cussing and ranting, but I still don't like getting that curt.  Sorry.   :mblush:

This is the historical context in which the NT was written:


"The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece was between adult men and adolescent boys, known as pederasty."


"Though homosexual relationships between adult men did exist, at least one member of each of these relationships flouted social conventions by assuming a passive sexual role. It is unclear how such relations between women were regarded in the general society, but examples do exist as far back as the time of Sappho.[5]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:26:02 AM
I disagree Paul.  I don't think that's correct.  I also don't see how you can explain away the other things Apostle Paul had to say without even using those specific words.

I respect that you disagree,  I am simply making observations concerning the definitions.  We have this same issue in the ED / UR side of things I didn't see how they explained that away at one time.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:29:21 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:22:03 AM
Here it is from The Christian Bible (1991), translated from the oldest available manuscripts in the Koine Greek - much of The Christian Bible admittedly resulted in different beliefs than what some of the translators originally believed prior to entering the translation task.

Why don't you just rather let yourselves be injured?  Why don't you just rather let yourselves be cheated?  Rather, you are injuring and cheating others and doing this to your brothers and sisters!  Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;  neither those who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse, nor those who are idol worshipers, nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals...  I Cor. 6

I wonder outloud.  If this translation states homosexuals, but yet we are speaking about prostitution, or just using someone for sexual release, then why use the word homosexuals.  Why not just say prostitution is sin?  Using people sexually is a sin?  Why does Paul speak specifically about male male relations?

I think because of the pederasty.  It's not prostitution.  It's an accepted way of life at the time.  Paul is saying it is wrong.

In that respect, Christianity was turning the social mores of the society on its head.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 01:29:21 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 01:22:03 AM
Here it is from The Christian Bible (1991), translated from the oldest available manuscripts in the Koine Greek - much of The Christian Bible admittedly resulted in different beliefs than what some of the translators originally believed prior to entering the translation task.

Why don't you just rather let yourselves be injured?  Why don't you just rather let yourselves be cheated?  Rather, you are injuring and cheating others and doing this to your brothers and sisters!  Or aren't you aware that the unjust won't inherit a share of God's Kingdom?  You must stop being led astray;  neither those who are having nonmarital sexual intercourse, nor those who are idol worshipers, nor those who are having extramarital sexual intercourse, nor those who have a soft, self-indulgent way of life, nor those who are homosexuals...  I Cor. 6

I wonder outloud.  If this translation states homosexuals, but yet we are speaking about prostitution, or just using someone for sexual release, then why use the word homosexuals.  Why not just say prostitution is sin?  Using people sexually is a sin?  Why does Paul speak specifically about male male relations?

I understand those issues, but there may be a lot of whys for a lot of things. If a translation that relates more precisely to the salvation of all men doesn't use the word eternal or everlasting or the word hell then why do most translations contain those words.

When you go to the level of scripture where you look at definitions, I cannot see the direct association to homosexuality being bad, and when I did that with Eternal Damnation, I got the same result.

They may not have had the word for homosexuality at that time, Paul.

But they sure understood what the action was.

Thanks Mol for the info.  All of that may be true.   (yes, if you look at the progression of translation of the word, it comes out "male bed-liers").

Back to your post.  IMO, although relevant of course, I personally want to focus in on what I believe the NT teaches.  When Ap. Paul teaches against male-male "bed-liers", and states that men and women left "the natural use" of each other and "burned in their lust toward one another", and that they received the "due recompense for their error";  also, that "those who practice such things (and many other things) will not inherit the kingdom" (peace, joy, living in right relationship with the Savior, to face Him "unashamed"), again, IMO, all other social issues, historical issues, etc., must take a back seat.

I've probably said enough, folks will believe what they will until God shows each of us something different.  I just want it clearly be on record, as folks visit the boards, that there are scriptural reasons to turn from sin and look to the Lord to cleanse and deliver us.   :2c:  God's in control, He can take care of it.  Blessings.

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 02:17:15 AM
Thanks Mol for the info.  All of that may be true.   (yes, if you look at the progression of translation of the word, it comes out "male bed-liers").

Back to your post.  IMO, although relevant of course, I personally want to focus in on what I believe the NT teaches.  When Ap. Paul teaches against male-male "bed-liers", and states that men and women left "the natural use" of each other and "burned in their lust toward one another", and that they received the "due recompense for their error";  also, that "those who practice such things (and many other things) will not inherit the kingdom" (peace, joy, living in right relationship with the Savior, to face Him "unashamed"), again, IMO, all other social issues, historical issues, etc., must take a back seat.

I've probably said enough, folks will believe what they will until God shows each of us something different.  I just want it clearly be on record, as folks visit the boards, that there are scriptural reasons to turn from sin and look to the Lord to cleanse and deliver us.   :2c:  God's in control, He can take care of it.  Blessings.

Yes, of course, he's very clear about that as well as premarital and extramarital infidelity.

I"m just saying it was a way of life in those days.  Everybody knew what he was talking about.

Yes, thanks for info.  You're the info lady  :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 02:17:15 AM
Thanks Mol for the info.  All of that may be true.   (yes, if you look at the progression of translation of the word, it comes out "male bed-liers").

Back to your post.  IMO, although relevant of course, I personally want to focus in on what I believe the NT teaches.  When Ap. Paul teaches against male-male "bed-liers", and states that men and women left "the natural use" of each other and "burned in their lust toward one another", and that they received the "due recompense for their error";  also, that "those who practice such things (and many other things) will not inherit the kingdom" (peace, joy, living in right relationship with the Savior, to face Him "unashamed"), again, IMO, all other social issues, historical issues, etc., must take a back seat.

I've probably said enough, folks will believe what they will until God shows each of us something different.  I just want it clearly be on record, as folks visit the boards, that there are scriptural reasons to turn from sin and look to the Lord to cleanse and deliver us.   :2c:  God's in control, He can take care of it.  Blessings.

If tentmaker takes a specific stance towards homosexuality being wrong, now would be a good time to state it.  I have no idea how questioning religious traditions and pointing out the flaws in reasoning concerning homosexuality could cause someone to think that tentmaker condones living in sin on any greater level than someone visiting and seeing tentmaker specifically challenges and questions religious traditions and reasonings concerning Eternal Damnation.

Seems such a position is EXACTLY what tentmaker supports.

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 02:16:37 AM
They may not have had the word for homosexuality at that time, Paul.

But they sure understood what the action was.

Not really.  In the old testament that reasoning doesn't apply, the verse in leviticus doesn't infer women by any stretch.


In the new testament, it is ridiculous to say there wasn't much adult same sex relationships, the study of ancient roman history will reveal otherwise. Sources trying to relate homosexuality to the obscure passages that are not specific or detailed concerning it are from religiously biased sources, of course, they would try to work in an association to pedophilia to homosexuality even though in modern times,  pedophilia is mutually exclusive from homosexuality in terms of the emotional constructs that are dealt with in those areas.   A male prostitute is mutually exclusive from homosexuality.

The definitions of words are the telling tale,  adult same gender relationships is not specifically condemned,  the verses are within passages specifically dealing with how one person treats and uses another and sexuality is a minor instance of ways people can mistreat one another. 

Hermaphrodites is something the Christian against homosexuality cannot apply their favorite scriptures to, that is also telling.  The passages most used to say homosexuality is wrong, cannot be applied to them in those specific terms, God didn't leave them out and when you DO apply those scriptures to them, for me it clears us that problem entirely.  There is no question to me that it is about the treatment of ourselves and to others.   The idea that homosexuality is an inherant flaw is a predisposition that you will not gather from the definitions of scriptural words. 

I have no idea what you are talking about Paul.

You make no sense to me.

The Bible is as clear as day.

It calls such practices an abomination, among other things.

But, in particular, in ancient Greece, young boys were not only at risk, it was an accepted way of life.  They were initiated into the practice by grown men.  You want to see that return?

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 03:07:36 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about Paul.

You make no sense to me.

Irrelevant to the issue.


Why not post all those definitions of words we are accustomed to seeing if it is so clear. 

And simply answer the question concerning how those verses you say are so clear apply to hermaphrodites.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 03:12:14 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 03:07:36 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about Paul.

You make no sense to me.

Irrelevant to the issue.


Why not post all those definitions of words we are accustomed to seeing if it is so clear. 

And simply answer the question concerning how those verses you say are so clear apply to hermaphrodites.

Why are hermaphrodites part of this discussion?  That's a birth defect, isn't it?  It can be corrected based on the desire of the person suffering from it, can't it?  Pick a sex and go with it.  What percentage of the population are you talking about who are true hermaphrodites?  Three hundredths of one percent?  And, because of this you can't undertand what God means when he says that same sex sexual partnership is an abomination?  I could post definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words, but the English is very clear.


What is not clear to you?

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 03:33:46 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 03:12:14 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 03:07:36 AM
I have no idea what you are talking about Paul.

You make no sense to me.

Irrelevant to the issue.


Why not post all those definitions of words we are accustomed to seeing if it is so clear. 

And simply answer the question concerning how those verses you say are so clear apply to hermaphrodites.

Why are hermaphrodites part of this discussion?  That's a birth defect, isn't it?  It can be corrected based on the desire of the person suffering from it, can't it?  Pick a sex and go with it.  What percentage of the population are you talking about who are true hermaphrodites?  Three hundredths of one percent?  And, because of this you can't undertand what God means when he says that same sex sexual partnership is an abomination?  I could post definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words, but the English is very clear.


What is not clear to you?

The issue is not about what is clear to me, I have been down the road, I can argue against homosexuality and have and completely understand the reasoning behind saying scripture saying it is inherantly wrong to be a homosexual,  so, I understand the arguments, I am challenging those traditional views like I have everything else. 

When scripture says a woman should not abandon the natural use of a woman, what does the hermaphrodite do?
When scripture talks about men burning in lust for other men, what does the hermaphrodite do?

When I tried it cannot be done, however, when talking about how a person treats one another it is easy to see that the hermaphrodite can burn with lust and forsake the natural use of whatever gender they choose.   The small percentage that you want to sweep under the rug is actually important.   The bible talks about the "LEAST" of these, funny how such a small percentage can change what God is trying to tell us.

How convenient that you do not post definitions on this issue because the "english is very clear".    Well, show how clear it is then.

No, it can be surgically corrected and with hormones.  Pick a sex and go with it. 


Are you suggesting that God approves of same sex sexual partnerships?  Is that your position?

Does he approve of marital infidelity, too?

Can I start having affairs with married men?

Did it occur to you that God is creating rules that make society a more pleasant, stable,  and safer place for all to live?  Especially children?

Paul was talking to Gentiles who routinely practiced these things he was talking against.  Why would he do that?  Just to be a prude?  Just to rain on their party?

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 03:56:31 AM
No, it can be surgically corrected and with hormones.  Pick a sex and go with it. 

Often times it does not even need to be, why would it need to be?   What did they do before modern technology?

QuoteAre you suggesting that God approves of same sex sexual partnerships?  Is that your position?

Yep

QuoteDoes he approve of marital infidelity, too?

No, but that is completely unrelated to homosexuality

QuoteCan I start having affairs with married men?

No and that is completely unrelated to homosexuality.

QuoteDid it occur to you that God is creating rules that make society a more pleasant and safer place for all to live?

Sure and those who didn't want women to vote, blacks to be free might have and probably did used that argument too.  White supremist think exterminating blacks will make society a more pleasant and safer place to live, perhaps they are on to something after all.

QuotePaul was talking to Gentiles who routinely practiced these things he was talking against.

Sure, never said he wasn't.  But tradition infers things that may not necessarily apply, that is what I am challenging.  You try to infer that because I approve of homosexual relationships that I then condone all sorts of things, but you are incorrect in your reasoning.   

QuoteWhy would he do that?  Just to be a prude?  Just to rain on their party?

Well because there are things that can be wrong.   I was raised that playing with dice was wrong, and said the bible was against it because gambling is evil.  I routinely defy the traditions I was raised with and play games using DICE.

I was also raised that blacks should marry blacks and white should marry whites, and of course all other races really weren't mentioned,  but unequally yoked was a CLEAR passage that proved it.   LOL.

QuoteNo and that is completely unrelated to homosexuality.

Marital infidelity is related in that it is a sexual practice that God says is wrong.  So what is the difference?  I certainly am physically able to have affairs with married men.  I might even have a proclivity to do it.  I find men attractive.

So why should I refrain from doing it?  Isn't it 'natural'?

Why can't I say that you are discriminating against me by telling me that having affairs with married men is wrong?

Paul states...

Sure and those who didn't want women to vote, blacks to be free might have and probably did used that argument too.  White supremist think exterminating blacks will make society a more pleasant and safer place to live, perhaps they are on to something after all.

Are you comparing the extermination of blacks to that of people who think homosexuality is a sin?  People have used the Bible in all sorts of ways to opress many people.  I'm sure you use extreme imagery to make that point.  But, where in the Bible does it condone murder?  I can show clear scriptures that clearly state in multiple literal translations that same sex relations is considered sin by God.  You don't have to agree with it.  Even part of my natural being wants to say, hey if they love each other and are commited to each other...why not?  The problem, is the Bible doesn't agree with that stance.  I haven't seen anything scripturally that would make me see otherwise.

I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 04:21:09 AM

QuoteNo and that is completely unrelated to homosexuality.

Marital infidelity is related in that it is a sexual practice that God says is wrong.  So what is the difference?  I certainly am physically able to have affairs with married men.  I might even have a proclivity to do it.  I find men attractive.

So why should I refrain from doing it?  Isn't it 'natural'?

Why can't I say that you are discriminating against me by telling me that having affairs with married men is wrong?

You can say whatever you like, homosexuality has nothing to do with the behaviors you brought up.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 04:29:51 AM
Paul states...

Sure and those who didn't want women to vote, blacks to be free might have and probably did used that argument too.  White supremist think exterminating blacks will make society a more pleasant and safer place to live, perhaps they are on to something after all.

Are you comparing the extermination of blacks to that of people who think homosexuality is a sin? 

Nope.  I was pointing out who might use a specific argument position to help justify something.  In short the argument can be used with just about anything, so it's validity is questionable.

QuoteThe problem, is the Bible doesn't agree with that stance.  I haven't seen anything scripturally that would make me see otherwise.

Many people say they havven't seen anything scriptural to support it.  Eter's say it about Ur, Ur says it about et,  Anihillationists says it about Ur and Et, so what?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 04:48:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 04:21:09 AM

QuoteNo and that is completely unrelated to homosexuality.

Marital infidelity is related in that it is a sexual practice that God says is wrong.  So what is the difference?  I certainly am physically able to have affairs with married men.  I might even have a proclivity to do it.  I find men attractive.

So why should I refrain from doing it?  Isn't it 'natural'?

Why can't I say that you are discriminating against me by telling me that having affairs with married men is wrong?

You can say whatever you like, homosexuality has nothing to do with the behaviors you brought up.

Why is that?  Because you don't approve of marital infidelity but you do approve of homosexuality?  That makes them different? lol

I can't help myself.  I was born finding men attractive.  Who are you to tell me I can't have affairs with married men?  We are two consenting adults.

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 04:42:02 AM
I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

yes.  Keeping you in my prayers, Michelle.

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 04:42:02 AM
I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

Yes, we have diverted from Michelle.  We can hijack a thread with the best of em.   :bigGrin:

I will be sure to remember Michelle in my prayers.

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 04:55:41 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 04:48:02 AM

Quote from: Molly on March 23, 2011, 04:21:09 AM

QuoteNo and that is completely unrelated to homosexuality.

Marital infidelity is related in that it is a sexual practice that God says is wrong.  So what is the difference?  I certainly am physically able to have affairs with married men.  I might even have a proclivity to do it.  I find men attractive.

So why should I refrain from doing it?  Isn't it 'natural'?

Why can't I say that you are discriminating against me by telling me that having affairs with married men is wrong?

You can say whatever you like, homosexuality has nothing to do with the behaviors you brought up.

Why is that?  Because you don't approve of marital infidelity but you do approve of homosexuality?  That makes them different? lol

I can't help myself.  I was born finding men attractive.  Who are you to tell me I can't have affairs with married men?  We are two consenting adults.

None of that has anything to do with the points I have proposed.

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 05:21:14 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 04:42:02 AM
I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

Yes, we have diverted from Michelle.  We can hijack a thread with the best of em.   :bigGrin:

I will be sure to remember Michelle in my prayers.

Yes we can!  Thanks everyone that's remembering to pray.  (Also remember Lomorah and Cardinal).

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 05:21:14 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 04:42:02 AM
I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

Yes, we have diverted from Michelle.  We can hijack a thread with the best of em.   :bigGrin:

I will be sure to remember Michelle in my prayers.

I'm not sure there was ever anything to hijack.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 23, 2011, 06:10:12 AM

Quote from: shawn on March 23, 2011, 05:21:14 AM

Quote from: jabcat on March 23, 2011, 04:42:02 AM
I want to briefly cut in for this little update.  Michelle started this thread...would we please remember to keep her in our prayers?  Thanks.

Yes, we have diverted from Michelle.  We can hijack a thread with the best of em.   :bigGrin:

I will be sure to remember Michelle in my prayers.

I'm not sure there was ever anything to hijack.

Sometimes witnessing someone living in their own hell is not pleasant to watch.  Sometimes people in this kind of pain can step on toes and bruise egos.  But, Christ didn't come for the healthy, he came for the sick.  What we witnessed was someone unable to accept God's telling of their story.  In there lies opportunity to be the hands and feet of Christ.  This thread took a divergent path from that opportunity.

I encourage michelle to continue her path,  I see a resemblence in my path,  I question and I challenge and at the same time retain beliefs that I have been taught all my life.

Tradition has nothing to do with truth it neither makes it true, nor does it mean it is not true.  What I challenge is indeed the idea that because a majority thinks something then that gives it validity.   It does not, it does make it harder in a sense to carry a belief that defies tradition.

The specifics of homosexuality are irrelevant in terms of what michelle is going through, I only brought it up because as we can see it makes a very good illustration of what everyone has to deal with. 

You bring up the old testament,  a person should be prepared to justify why part of it still is wrong today, but not other parts.   When the new testament is involved we see that Jesus often clarified old traditions to a deeper level.

Murder is a good illustration and I do not mind using myself as an example.  I murder all the time in my heart,  but I have never physically murdered anyone,  I can say with confidence that it would be unlikely that I will murder in the future.  I say that because what I think in my mind never manifests to the thought of carrying it out physically the idea in fact scares me.   However that does not change when I think in my mind.  The majority of people likely think that because they have not physically murdered anyone that they are better than someone who has, maybe that is true maybe it is not, but Jesus showed us that what we believe is written may not necessarily be what it is.

Michelle likely sees the problem of hearing that the whole bible is true, while wrestling with all the justifications used to explain why God did this or that.  The problem is while we can believe the whole bible is true,  there is a reality to the manner in which it is true.

Like I pointed out, unrelated to the hot topic I was raised in a household that taught and believed that the whole bible is true and that it is the inerrant word of God.  Then that same bible was used to say that it was against God for a white person to marry a black person,  so,  in what manner then is the whole bible true.  Is that true?  Why is it true or why is it not?

I do not believe it is true, however those who do, use the "inerrant" word of God to say so.   That is the larger picture here,  we can assert  "The bible is clear"  Well I was told the "bible is clear" in what I just mentioned.   Two opposite view points can say "IT IS CLEAR" rendering the point useless.   I say some things that appear offensive, and I have thought so too, people have said things to me that I believed were offensive.  However I look back and those things sometimes were what made me dig and dig and dig.  It has also humbled me, realizing that, someone I did not like and did not want to be right, was right, and what I thought of them was irrelevant when I came to something I changed my mind on.

So at what point are we submitting to "God" as opposed to just following superstition, tradition or simply those who are decieved themselves and have made a great case for what they think is wrong that looks like it makes sense?

Never stop questioning Michelle, dig for the truth, no matter what.