We cannot understand Gods ways?

[Universalist Catholic]

This is the defense that many use when they question the logic behind eternal torment.  I read an article from Betty Miller about Hell.  She used the example about a child being put in timeout for taking a cookie out of the cookie jar.  Okay, thats a fair argument.  But extremely flawed.  First off, its a punishment that fits the crime.  A kid may not fully comprehend why they are being punished, but they dont typically hate their parents.  However if a parent beat a child for stealing a cookie, the child is only going to fear them, and eventually hate them.  And we see that happening.  Those who get stuck in those systems either live in fear, or end up becoming atheists.  And we have those who truly worship the ET god, they take on some evil attributes.  Ive seen sadistic, violent, hateful, biggoted, selfish, self righteous, and legalistic.  Many Christians I know who are not openly universalist, but very Christlike, and they dont speak a word about hell, nor fearful.  In fact very joyful.

But back to the point if we cannot reason out, but just accept hell, then what drew them to accept the scriptures in the first place?  Sure one reading a popular bible translation, Jesus has some attractive life lessons.  Yet if you were to read the bible in the context of ET, then you have a book that makes absolutely no sense, and a schizophrenic god.  Even the theologians cannot come up with a good argument to reconcile love and hellfire.  Or at least without mutilating the scriptures, making abstract specious nonsense reasoning.  Now we have the excuse they may have been scared into accepting the modern day translations.  Yet people could be scared into accepting the Koran, or some other apocalyptical literature. 

Third point, people try to explain that Hell must exist for people like Hitler.  Yet cannot explain why the Hindu down the street has to burn forever, let alone let Hitler suffer infinitely worse than he caused on earth.  Simple explaination? ET solves nothing.  It doesnt make the victims of the Holocaust any better.  Plus in the context of UR, the Jews would be restored as if the Holocaust never happened.  So why continuously punish Hitler once he has payed for his crimes against humanity?(Which would still be serious).  The Jews would be over the Holocaust, so Hitlers crimes are gone.

We heard the old argument that why be a good person.  Because you love God, and want to serve him, not out of fear.  Yet why be a good person if you can get last rites? Or why be good if once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, then why be good if your salvation is assured? With UR, theres no escaping Justice, but Justice is not the foul revenge the churches teach.

[Lefein]

Best part about the "timeout" argument, is that the "timeout" punishment is remedial, and that it has an end. :)

But I suppose they never think of it that way...

[Nathan]

And as to the "why be good" part, I would quickly shoot back "why are you good now?"  Because if they're being good based on fear if they don't, then their relationship isn't genuine in the first place.  it would uncover the real motive as to why they think they're a believer to begin with.

[Miriam]

But back to the point if we cannot reason out, but just accept hell, then what drew them to accept the scriptures in the first place?  Sure one reading a popular bible translation, Jesus has some attractive life lessons.  Yet if you were to read the bible in the context of ET, then you have a book that makes absolutely no sense, and a schizophrenic god.

Because God's love is for all, in Jesus. Because he so loved the world that he gave his son. Because as well as being infinitely loving he is also infinitely just and we can't understand that. He cannot look on sin. He gives everyone the chance of salvation, but only in this life because "after that the judgement." His ways are not our ways and we do not always understand; we need to trust.

I am simply putting forward the possible answers. I believed them for 30 years. My mind is being changed, slowly.

[redhotmagma]

also where it says His ways are higher than our ways the context is about His mercy

[Universalist Catholic]

also where it says His ways are higher than our ways the context is about His mercy

And they call us the cherrypickers. :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

I do not want to be bold or intrusive, but your post "We cannot understand Gods ways," from all the answers that were given, begs the question (and I do not have a desire to send this off track, if it seems so...tell me..thanks)
What is love? 

[Lefein]

This isn't a full definition of Love (aside from "God is Love"), but it is a thing that came to me as a part of a revelation I had concerning Fear, so it might be useful for a bread crumb in the bread crumb trail.

"Love is the source of all comfort - both in provision of needs, and in satisfaction of noble wants."

From

Perfect love casts out fear. Fear is what comes about when someone does not feel loved - or else it is what comes about when someone feels the possibility of being cut off from, or losing it. Fear is what happens when Love seems scarce, or gone. Love is more than just emotional connection, love is the source of all comfort - both in provision of needs, and in satisfaction of noble wants.

[WhiteWings]

But back to the point if we cannot reason out, but just accept hell, then what drew them to accept the scriptures in the first place?  Sure one reading a popular bible translation, Jesus has some attractive life lessons.  Yet if you were to read the bible in the context of ET, then you have a book that makes absolutely no sense, and a schizophrenic god.

Because God's love is for all, in Jesus. Because he so loved the world that he gave his son. Because as well as being infinitely loving he is also infinitely just and we can't understand that. He cannot look on sin. He gives everyone the chance of salvation, but only in this life because "after that the judgement." His ways are not our ways and we do not always understand; we need to trust.

I am simply putting forward the possible answers. I believed them for 30 years. My mind is being changed, slowly.

a] Can you imagine a loving parent that sometimes slaps his/her child?
b] Can you imagine that a parent that constantly hurts his/her child is a loving parent?

Love and justice are/can be combined in a] but not in b].....

The verse "God's ways are higher than us" is mis/abused to often imo.
Ok mankind doesn't understand all of it., but I think it mostly about why He does things the way He does things.
His ways (=laws) are often our own laws. (you shall not murder, steal, etc)

Also keep in mind many words in the Bible have meanings that are (partly) forgotten or constantly put in a wrong context; and get a whole wrong "feeling".
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/dude_chastening_on_day_judgement_oo_6373.msg67458.html#msg67458

[Aleax]

This is the defense that many use when they question the logic behind eternal torment.

I'd say they've got "ways" mixed up with "purpose". True, we cannot always understand God's ways, however, His purpose is laid out clearly in the Ephesians 1.

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself,

Eph 1:10 in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him;

Eph 1:11 in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

[WhiteWings]

This is the defense that many use when they question the logic behind eternal torment.

The problem with such verses is that everyone's doctrine is right. Just start arguing doctrine and when it's impossible to explain away a certain point of doctrine then use that verse as a last resort.
Basicly it's used to explain away contradictions found in the Bible. Contradictions that are only there because doctrine starts twisting and bending things until it becomes such a mess Scripture really seems to contradict. Of course no one dares to say God messed up the Bible or they possibly misunderstood some verses; so that verse is used.
I very much doubt the verse is about such matters.
Let's take UR as an example. All seems to fit. No contradicting verses. God is in full control. He shows love but also justice. And then at the end we end up in heaven with nice guys like Ted Bundy and Hitler. Why would God like to save such people? I think that's what the verse is about.
Not about what God does. But about why.
:2c:

[Nathan]

This kind of strkes me a bit odd . .you state

His purpose is laid out clearly in the Ephesians 1.

It's "clearly" laid out . . .. and then the passage you quote says just the opposite . . .

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will,

If it was all that clear, then how can it be a secret?

[Aleax]

This kind of strkes me a bit odd . .you state

His purpose is laid out clearly in the Ephesians 1.

It's "clearly" laid out . . .. and then the passage you quote says just the opposite . . .

Eph 1:9 having made known to us the secret of His will,

If it was all that clear, then how can it be a secret?

It wasn't clear for a long, long time. God's eonian purpose remained a secret for the gentiles until Paul got his revelation. 

[Nathan]

I would propose that the clarity isn't as easy for some as it is for others . . .I believe it comes in the maturity process of our relationship of intimacy in Christ . . .the hunrier we are for Christ, the more the Father reveals his infinite nature to us.

[Lefein]

Most things seem to be hidden in plain sight.  It is just a matter of who has eyes to see, and ears to hear.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes, we can understand, this does not mean we will at any given moment any more than everyone at any given time understands why the sky is blue,  or the moon appears to have a face in it at times.

The argument that we cannot understand is always used from one person trying to assert they are correct to those who are not convinced.  Yet the argument is self defeating.  How can one claim to understand while claiming we cannot understand.

Well of course God let them understand, uh huh.

I've been guilty of saying the same types of things,  and it is pointless.  I believe what I believe now and reserve the right to believe someing else later, thats just how it is.

[Beloved Servant]

I will go down to Egypt with you, and I will surely bring you back again. And Joseph's own Hand will close your eyes.

[Nathan]

Yes, we can understand, this does not mean we will at any given moment any more than everyone at any given time understands why the sky is blue,  or the moon appears to have a face in it at times.

The argument that we cannot understand is always used from one person trying to assert they are correct to those who are not convinced.  Yet the argument is self defeating.  How can one claim to understand while claiming we cannot understand.

Well of course God let them understand, uh huh.

I've been guilty of saying the same types of things,  and it is pointless.  I believe what I believe now and reserve the right to believe someing else later, thats just how it is.

You are getting more and more confusing the more you try to clarify.  Understanding for me comes by way of spiritual birthing  . .much can be "seen" but not understood.  And I like your last line . . .I think holding the ability to change my stand on something tomorrow is what growth is all about.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes, we can understand, this does not mean we will at any given moment any more than everyone at any given time understands why the sky is blue,  or the moon appears to have a face in it at times.

The argument that we cannot understand is always used from one person trying to assert they are correct to those who are not convinced.  Yet the argument is self defeating.  How can one claim to understand while claiming we cannot understand.

Well of course God let them understand, uh huh.

I've been guilty of saying the same types of things,  and it is pointless.  I believe what I believe now and reserve the right to believe someing else later, thats just how it is.

You are getting more and more confusing the more you try to clarify.  Understanding for me comes by way of spiritual birthing  . .much can be "seen" but not understood.  And I like your last line . . .I think holding the ability to change my stand on something tomorrow is what growth is all about.

Understanding can also come to each of us differently.  It is likely we could understand the same thing, but that can be unique to our personality and we can explain it differently.  What I wrote may be confusing to you, but it makes perfect sense to me, someone else may understand it or I could be completely wrong.  Whether or not someone else understands what I say or what you say inherantly does NOT define that either of us are right or wrong.


The point I am trying to get everyone to understand is that anyone who believes something but claims they are correct by saying Gods ways are not our ways has not actually said anything factual about whether they are actually correct or not.

Hopefully I confused you even more.   ;)

[Universalist Catholic]

I have just read on a Lutheran Blog about the possibility of UR.  And it stated that it was possible to believe both Universal Salvation and Eternal Damnation.  I think Peter Kreeft a Catholic Philosopher in his defense on Hell stated something similar that all those prophecies concerning the restoration of the Universe abd Eternal Damnation are equally true.  But our lack of the understanding of Eternity cannot possibly understand how these two opposites can be equally true.  With the Teaching of Annihilation, there is perfect harmony between the UR and the Damnation passages interpreted in light of tradition.  Someone mentioned that in the scriptures that God will make a fool and frustrate the wisdom of the wise.  The problem with that thinking is, it would be like expecting someone to believe that a particular animal is both a Chicken and a goose.  Those are two completely different animals.  Now a Chicken and a goose are both birds, but are still different species.  And we have good reason to believe they are both birds.  But we have no good reason to believe that they are the same species.  We can agree that UR is the final outcome.  So we can reasonably agree that the verses about Damnation and the verses on UR dont contratict eachother.  Just like being able to state that a Chicken and a Goose are both birds, but two different animals is not contratictive.  But saying they are two different species while saying they are the same species does not make sense at all.  And clearly translated, the Scriptures teach that Hell, damnation, judgment and wrath are means to salvation, and salvation is the end result.  Yes they are different, damnation is not necessarily pleasant, but salvation is.  But Damnation is a means of bringing one to salvation.  Thats what the bible teaches.  Makes sense.  But the issue I have is those who use the scriptures of Gods wisdom frustrating the wise to discredit any type of reason and understanding, without confusion. 

[Miriam]

The point I am trying to get everyone to understand is that anyone who believes something but claims they are correct by saying Gods ways are not our ways has not actually said anything factual about whether they are actually correct or not.

I get that.  :bigGrin:

I like your posts, Paul. They make me think.

[legoman]

Yes Paul's point is a good one.

Essentially they are saying:  "we cannot understand God's ways (except for me, I understand God's ways because I'm right!)"

[Nathan]

However, there is still truth to the fact that his ways are "not" our ways . . .it should be a reminder for all of us when we get too aggressive about what we share and how we share it.  Regardless of where we are spiritually, the only reason we see "anything" is not because of how knowledgable we are, it's because of how great his grace is that he chose to reveal anything to us at all.

[Lefein]

One thing that has come up today, in seeing some comments on a blog review of "Love Wins" (which...I haven't been able to find in any free format legally, or been able to get to a library for) is a very commonly used statement almost as common as "we can't understand God's ways" and all that implies.

And that is;

"If we aren't worshiping the God of the Bible, we are worshiping an idol."

It is a bothersome statement for many reasons.

[Miriam]

"If we aren't worshiping the God of the Bible, we are worshiping an idol."

It is a bothersome statement for many reasons.

In what particular ways is it bothersome, do you think? From my perspective, I'm starting to think I didn't know the God of the Bible as he really is for about the past 30 years...