Rob Bell, Love Wins

[Lefein]

Agreed, and agreeable on all points Jabcat.

[Miriam]

. . .not that the original authors had the hidden agendas, but the original "translators" that translated it from Greek to Latin, from Latin to English . . ."they" were those with the hidden agendas when they did their translating.

Could you explain that, please? What hidden agendas did the translators have? Was their motive not to put the Bible into languages that more people of the day could understand?

[jabcat]

Agreed, and agreeable on all points Jabcat.

:gimmefive:

[shawn]

Bible worship is very possible; the Scribes and Pharisees did it.

The Word of God is Jesus, and well...if we want to be technical, the Bible isn't Jesus, and so isn't "The Word" of God, though it is a/the collection of inspired scripture.

The common use of the phrase "word of God" meaning 'collection of inspired scripture' is not the same as when people attribute that same phrase to saying that the Bible is "The Word of God" a title which belongs to Jesus alone.

Using the phrase 'word of God' vs. 'Word of God' - I'd say it is alright to call the Bible the word of God...just not The Word of God; when we call it The Word, we get into idolatry, when we call it 'the word of God' we get into a situation of cultural definition, and phrases...though I myself am uncomfortable these days with calling the Bible - The Word, whether capitalised or not.

I much prefer to call them "the scriptures", which is more accurate.

I usually say "the scriptures" as well, mainly because I don't want this particular argument and people's varying opinions/understandings from detracting from the primary point I'm often trying to make at the time.

However, I believe the scribes and pharisees misused the written Word, and missed the Revealed Word - Jesus.  They looked to and ONLY used the letter, and were not open to the Spirit and denied the Messiah.  IMO, that's how they failed.

I believe there's misunderstanding on BOTH sides of this issue - those that deny the scriptures, and those that get so dogmatic they insist on things like KJV-salvation and any other translations are of the devil - and then many variations in-between.

This is from a previous post I've kept for these purposes.  Hopefully it's helpful.

"My thoughts simply are, Jesus became the revealed Word in flesh, but His doing so did not negate the logos, which scripture states is forever settled in the heavens.  In my understanding (and I've had some very intense dealings from God regarding His Word) there's the Word (thought/intent of God), the written Word, and Jesus the Word revealed and come in the flesh - not one or the other.   

IMO, there can be a misunderstanding between the written Word, the spoken Word, and the fact that Jesus revealed the Word in flesh.  As I've said, I don't believe one negates the other.

John 6:63 Jesus said ".....the Words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life".

John 1:1 Christ is the living Word of God.

I believe scripture (accurately translated, rightly divided, Spirit revealed - especially the originals) is the written Word of God, as evidenced by Jesus' statement Himself - John 14:23 JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "if a man love me he will keep my Words".  (The Word saying keep my Word.)

Matthew 4:4 "It is written man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

John 15:3 Again, JESUS (THE LIVING WORD) SAID, "Now you are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you".  (See it again, the Word saying the Word?)

Logos: Unchanging self-existent Word of God
  Psalms 119:89 "forever o Lord thy Word (logos) is settled in heaven".
Rhema: derived from the verb to speak. Romans 10:17 "so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

Shortly after God revealed UR to me, I was tempted to adopt what seemed to be a popular opinion on TM at the time, that Jesus ALONE was the Word, and that the written Word was suspect, unreliable, and not inspired.  God dealt with me swiftly, deeply, and painfully that I was to not go in that direction, and was to maintain a belief [and stance] that His written Word is just that - His Word.  Yes, Jesus is the Word -become flesh.  But God also has written Word and spoken/revealed Word.  They operate in tandem.  They don't exclude or diminish each other, and I don't believe I should either.

I later inquired (again) of God about this topic.  He immediately let me know He had already let me know.  I went to the written Word.  These scriptures are from perhaps the most literal English translation available, The Christian Bible (1991).

I John 2:7 The Law is called the Word that was heard  
        2:8 Then again, I am writing a new Word to you that is true in Him.
           :14 I have written to you...and God's Word is staying in you

Mathew 13:18-22  Jesus talks about the Word about the Kingdom, in the parable of the sower - Vs. 22;  "Now the one among the thorns into which the seed was planted, this is the person who hears the Word, but the concerns of this age and enticement or riches stifle the Word, and it beomes unfruitful.


Mt. 15:3  "Why do you step beyond the boundaries of God's Direction because of your tradition?  ...now you have invalidated God's Word because or your tradition."

Notice the differences, [1] and [2];

Rev. 3:8  You have kept [1] my Word and you haven't disowned [2] my name ("Yesu")

John 1:14 The Word became flesh

John 8:31  Then [1] Yesu was saying..."if you stay in [2] My Word, you are truly my students"
          37  "you are seeking to kill Me, for My Word has no room in you"

John 17:6,8  "I made [1] your Name apparent...they have kept [2] Your Word.  Now they have come to know that everything that You have given to Me, is from You, because they have kept the Declarations that you gave me, I have given to them, and they accepted them, and truly knew that came out from You..."

Terrific post.  I had never heard this point of view of the Word.  And, I must be one of them "fatalistic" folk because I do believe the Bible to be 100% inspired.  And while it's not all encompassing of my relationship with Christ, it's firmly founded within my walk.  2 Tim 3 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,  17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.  Doesn't seem like much wiggle room there...All Scripture is God-breathed.  We see the Scriptures inspiration, and function.  We don't worship the Bible but we do use it for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.  We have confidence in the Bible because it is indeed all God-breathed.

[jabcat]

Thanks Shawn, bless you.  I really feel God gave me that and led me to the right scrips.  I don't think we have a "perfect" translation,  but I believe there is the preserved meaning and accurate scriptures that God intended for us to have within those translations - which He reveals to us, and I believe He is revealing more and more in latter times.  (It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter).  So I believe we do have God's written Word to us, but it needs to be accurately translated and we need to read it with the Spirit and have it revealed and brought to life to us. 

The only thing I personally make any allowances for is translational issues, which IMO include if something can be factually PROVEN that a little piece here and there is spurrious - i.e., there's a VERY few instances of a word being added/changed here and there in later manuscripts, and even a couple of places where it's a line or part of a line (I don't mean in English translations, where there are lots of conjunctive words added for clarity such as "the", "that", "and", etc.).  But truly spurrious additions (not just varying people's opinions because it doesn't fit their particular doctrines or beliefs) in the later manuscripts are VERY few, as I've read that the oldest and best(est)  :laughing7:  manuscripts agree in the very high 90's percent of the time (98-99%).  So BY FAR, I contend what we have is reliable when accurately translated, rightly divided, and Spirit revealed - and as Lefein said, I take it on faith and conviction that the Originals were perfect as God intended.     So from my view, God did preserve His Word to us, just as He said He would - sometimes we've got to dig for those hidden things and "study to show ourselves approved".   

The scriptures are a light to our path, the Spirit comforts, teaches/reveals, and Jesus saves!    What more do you want?!   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

Gary requested a specific thread be started to address this, so since we had this one going already, I just changed the title to the above.  Hope that alright with you Big Nate.  Forgive me if it's not, and let me know and I can do something else.   :thumbsup:

Edit/P.S.   Gary is hoping that at the very least Rob Bell's book will cause people to dig, search some things out rather than just accept some of the "popular" interpretations re: "hell", after-life, etc.

[Nathan]

Ha . . .until you mentioned it Jabcat, I didn't even realize it got changed! :mshock:  No worries. 

I just wanted to add two things.  One was to a question aimed at me about the hidden agendas when it came to translations.  I'm not a scholar on the subject by any means, but what I "have" come across is that, if I'm not mistaken, the first translation that occured was not from Greek to English . . .that didn't happen until 1611 with the first King James Version . . .KJV has been revised several times since.  But instead it was tranlated over to Latin.  At that time, the Bible didn't have the popularity it has now in that every household has a half-dozen different translations, let alone Bibles.  And it was only the priests that had access to Scripture so they could and did twist it into saying anything they wanted it to say.  That's really what brought about the reformation to begin with.

But there was so much political motivation going on back then, backstabbing, excommunicating, murdering . . on an on.  The one thing religion does to to men is that it does cause people to manifest a LOT of passion.  Just recently in yet another suicide boming incident, the guy that blew himself up screamed "ALLAH IS GREAT".  The last thing people heard just before some lunitic blew them to smitherenes was the same guy murdering them was telling them God was great . . . we are a strange human race sometimes.

To Jabcats last point on this book . . .I took a news article to church with me, made copies of it and handed it out, not because it was my plan to, but because once I mentioned it and the fact I had copies for anyone interested in reading the article, everyone there wanted copies.  There is a great interest out there.  Yes, there obviously are other books dealing with the same subject . . .Hope Beyond Hell is one of my favorites as well.  But I think what we're seeing is that the momentum it begining to grow and God is bringing in truths that have been successfully swept under the rug all these generations until now. 

The think about trying to bury a seed of life, thinking that you're "hiding" it . . . where ever you buried it, it's going to take root. . . .crap . . .need to start another post again . . .

[lomarah]

Jab thanks for sharing about the word, that was a very enlightening post for me.  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

I truly believe this book that's shaking things up in the church is a tell-tale sign of the fact that the atmosphere in the heavenlies has changed from days  of Labor to DAY of Rest.  We've talked some about this before in the thinking in line with the "thousand years as a day" principle.  From Adam to Abraham, two days, from Abraham to Jesus, another two days, from Jesus to our generation, yet another two days . . .thus the six days of labor have passed and now our natural world is exposed to the Sabbath Day and it's changed the religous atmosphere.  The rules have changed . . .just as they did from what men were required to do in the six days leading up to the Sabbath, to what they were required to do "on" the Sabbath. 

The conflict comes when men who've embraced the six-day mentaility, try to apply the same laws of labor to the Day of the Sabbath . . .I think the message that Rob is bringing with this book, same as the author of "Hope Beyond Hell", same as "The Shack" and literally hundreds of other "outside of the religious box" books that are now at our disposal, these are all accumulative evidence that the spiritual atmosphere has/is/will continue changing as we further engage ourselves with the Sabbath Day identities.

Jesus also said in three days, after they tore his temple down, in three days he'd resurrect it again . . .is it any wonder these headlines are bringing a resurrective sound to those who have the ears to hear it?

[CHB]

Thanks Shawn, bless you.  I really feel God gave me that and led me to the right scrips.  I don't think we have a "perfect" translation,  but I believe there is the preserved meaning and accurate scriptures that God intended for us to have within those translations - which He reveals to us, and I believe He is revealing more and more in latter times.  (It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter).  So I believe we do have God's written Word to us, but it needs to be accurately translated and we need to read it with the Spirit and have it revealed and brought to life to us. 

The only thing I personally make any allowances for is translational issues, which IMO include if something can be factually PROVEN that a little piece here and there is spurrious - i.e., there's a VERY few instances of a word being added/changed here and there in later manuscripts, and even a couple of places where it's a line or part of a line (I don't mean in English translations, where there are lots of conjunctive words added for clarity such as "the", "that", "and", etc.).  But truly spurrious additions (not just varying people's opinions because it doesn't fit their particular doctrines or beliefs) in the later manuscripts are VERY few, as I've read that the oldest and best(est)  :laughing7:  manuscripts agree in the very high 90's percent of the time (98-99%).  So BY FAR, I contend what we have is reliable when accurately translated, rightly divided, and Spirit revealed - and as Lefein said, I take it on faith and conviction that the Originals were perfect as God intended.     So from my view, God did preserve His Word to us, just as He said He would - sometimes we've got to dig for those hidden things and "study to show ourselves approved".   

The scriptures are a light to our path, the Spirit comforts, teaches/reveals, and Jesus saves!    What more do you want?!   :bigGrin:

Amen!!!  God gave us these translations mistranslations and all for a purpose. Every one of us, even those who speak bad about the scriptures uses them to learn, teach, grow, inspire, and a host of other things.  In my view, to trash, put down, say we shouldn't trust the Bible is speaking against the God who gave it to us.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Nathan
The seventh angel blew his trumpet; and there followed loud voices in Heaven which said,
"The sovereignty of the world now belongs to our Lord and His Christ; and He will be King until the Ages of the Ages."

[Nathan]

REVELATION leads to REVOLUTION which leads to REFORMATION. 

Revelation has come . . .we're seeing the beginnings of a revolution that's about to transpire.  Once it does, reformation is inevidible. :myahoo: :myahoo: :myahoo:

[gky]

Hello all.  For whatever it might be worth, here is a Youtube video link showing Rob Bell himself, as he addresses how he views the Bible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIKkvmSNUCY

I agree w Nathan, even to the point that if we were given the original manuscripts and understood those languages fully (the cultural contexts of words/phrases and all), we would still need REVELATION from the Spirit to understand it.
I appreciate what Thinktank  said concerning how 4th century tampering has stumbled the average person's ability to understand the text - even to this day.

It's frustrating to witness even as little as 5 well-meaning men who devote their lives to study scriptures dilligently, cross-reference, etc and still not agree/corroborate on what it takes to become "saved" and "stay saved" (forget about pre/post/mid, tongues/no tongues, women teaching / not teaching in church, etc) .  As Gary Amirault says, 22,000 denominations.

I consider myself very immature here in this post, but for my own sanity, I reference Jesus Christ's actions/decisions of his
earthly life as documented.  Of course that also depends on how I interpret/perceive Him while I read. But in relation to
giving reverance to the scripture, I have to use Jesus' model to inform how I might understand scripture, Jesus being
the Word that became flesh and Jesus referencing (if you see Me, you see the Father).  This is all I can do at this stage
of my faith (or lack thereof)  to maintain sanity as I am admittedly very jaded concerning the validity of the text we have been given today.

Getting back to Rob Bell, I also have concerns (as Jabcat) that Bell might leave the impression that all URers at best give
light regard to scriptures or of more concern, not emphasize that Jesus Christ is the ONLY reason why salvation
and a reconcilled relationship with God the Father (whether Bell is a URer or not) is even possible to begin with.

But on behalf of Rob Bell, if God uses him (if for no other reason) to stir a very molded and stagnant pot of dead
churchianty in America, I'm good with that.

GKY   

[Nathan]

After listening to Rob's rebuttle on these issues . . .I guess I don't see how people could still be worried he thinks little of Scripture . . .at all.  He's made it pretty clear here that the Bible is what it says it is and that Christ is the ONLY entrance to the Father . . .what's there to take issue with now?  He's one of the few out there with his kind of clout that is emitting the SOUND of life as apposed to the NOISE of political religion.  The more I hear him, the more I like him.

[Nathan]

Here's part two to that same clip . . .I especially like his take on what blasphemy is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8U9jto2D00&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[thinktank]

REVELATION leads to REVOLUTION which leads to REFORMATION. 

Revelation has come . . .we're seeing the beginnings of a revolution that's about to transpire.  Once it does, reformation is inevidible. :myahoo: :myahoo: :myahoo:

For a long time the prophets have prophecied a large revival and reformation. Perhaps the key to ignite it is UR, that by it's nature will be an enemy to the religious spirit that dominates the church, and once the religious spirit is weakened, perhaps then revival can flow, the Holy spirit can work and Christ and the Father can do great works in the church, praise the lord.

[Lefein]

Why do I always look at the youtube comments...

"heretic this, heretic that, you're going to Hell Rob Bell for thus and such, I wonder how you'll like it when you're burning, you're not of God...etc, etc"

hrmmpf...

You know what I think?  I think people WANT other people to go to Hell.  It makes them feel better, it makes them feel special, it makes them feel like God's little favourite.

[shawn]

Ha . . .until you mentioned it Jabcat, I didn't even realize it got changed! :mshock:  No worries. 

I just wanted to add two things.  One was to a question aimed at me about the hidden agendas when it came to translations.  I'm not a scholar on the subject by any means, but what I "have" come across is that, if I'm not mistaken, the first translation that occured was not from Greek to English . . .that didn't happen until 1611 with the first King James Version . . .KJV has been revised several times since.  But instead it was tranlated over to Latin.  At that time, the Bible didn't have the popularity it has now in that every household has a half-dozen different translations, let alone Bibles.  And it was only the priests that had access to Scripture so they could and did twist it into saying anything they wanted it to say.  That's really what brought about the reformation to begin with.

But there was so much political motivation going on back then, backstabbing, excommunicating, murdering . . on an on.  The one thing religion does to to men is that it does cause people to manifest a LOT of passion.  Just recently in yet another suicide boming incident, the guy that blew himself up screamed "ALLAH IS GREAT".  The last thing people heard just before some lunitic blew them to smitherenes was the same guy murdering them was telling them God was great . . . we are a strange human race sometimes.

To Jabcats last point on this book . . .I took a news article to church with me, made copies of it and handed it out, not because it was my plan to, but because once I mentioned it and the fact I had copies for anyone interested in reading the article, everyone there wanted copies.  There is a great interest out there.  Yes, there obviously are other books dealing with the same subject . . .Hope Beyond Hell is one of my favorites as well.  But I think what we're seeing is that the momentum it begining to grow and God is bringing in truths that have been successfully swept under the rug all these generations until now. 

The think about trying to bury a seed of life, thinking that you're "hiding" it . . . where ever you buried it, it's going to take root. . . .crap . . .need to start another post again . . .

I suppose the danger in bringing the motivations of men into the equation is the fact that many will be left with the thought, "can I trust scripture".  I have not heard the youtube clip of Rob defending his statements about the Bible, but will check it out later.  What I do know is that men have always had motives.  Should we also question the motives of Paul?  How about John?  Is this really a path we want to go down? 

I trust God, not men.  If God is truly sovereign then the motivations of men are irrelevant.  I believe God has protected the Bible, and what we have can be trusted.  That is my starting place, the foundation from which my faith is built.  Because the Bible leads us to Christ.  If I can't trust the Bible, I can only trust those feelings going on in me.  And while I have grown closer to God, and I can hear the tuggings of the Holy Spirit I am still prone to allow the flesh to creep in and dictate what I want to hear.  The Bible keeps me grounded, and helps in discernment.

So, when I hear of a pastor who made the statements I showed in a previous post, it will concern me.  And you know what it should concern every believer.  It's very possible that Rob's quotes were taken out of context.  And if that is the case, then great I am very happy about that.  If he has clarified, and states that he believes the Bible to be 100% God inspired then I welcome his teachings.

[shawn]

Thanks Shawn, bless you.  I really feel God gave me that and led me to the right scrips.  I don't think we have a "perfect" translation,  but I believe there is the preserved meaning and accurate scriptures that God intended for us to have within those translations - which He reveals to us, and I believe He is revealing more and more in latter times.  (It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, the honor of kings to search out a matter).  So I believe we do have God's written Word to us, but it needs to be accurately translated and we need to read it with the Spirit and have it revealed and brought to life to us. 

The only thing I personally make any allowances for is translational issues, which IMO include if something can be factually PROVEN that a little piece here and there is spurrious - i.e., there's a VERY few instances of a word being added/changed here and there in later manuscripts, and even a couple of places where it's a line or part of a line (I don't mean in English translations, where there are lots of conjunctive words added for clarity such as "the", "that", "and", etc.).  But truly spurrious additions (not just varying people's opinions because it doesn't fit their particular doctrines or beliefs) in the later manuscripts are VERY few, as I've read that the oldest and best(est)  :laughing7:  manuscripts agree in the very high 90's percent of the time (98-99%).  So BY FAR, I contend what we have is reliable when accurately translated, rightly divided, and Spirit revealed - and as Lefein said, I take it on faith and conviction that the Originals were perfect as God intended.     So from my view, God did preserve His Word to us, just as He said He would - sometimes we've got to dig for those hidden things and "study to show ourselves approved".   

The scriptures are a light to our path, the Spirit comforts, teaches/reveals, and Jesus saves!    What more do you want?!   :bigGrin:

Amen!!!  God gave us these translations mistranslations and all for a purpose. Every one of us, even those who speak bad about the scriptures uses them to learn, teach, grow, inspire, and a host of other things.  In my view, to trash, put down, say we shouldn't trust the Bible is speaking against the God who gave it to us.

CHB

:thumbsup:

[CHB]

I think most people honestly believe in a forever burning hell, just like the Jews believed they were doing good by crucifying Jesus.  Jesus said "if they hate me they will hate you, if they have persecuted me, they will persecute you and speak all manner of evil against you".  Can we expect any different?

CHB

[shawn]

Here's part two to that same clip . . .I especially like his take on what blasphemy is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8U9jto2D00&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

That is certainly an interesting clip.  I would stress that it is indeed important to be cautious when condemning someone as a heretic.  Or, to say a particular church is heretical.  I would guess Mars Hill has gotten some unfair press.  So, Rob because he was called a heretic is basically saying those saying this could be committing blasphemy.  I get why he would want to say this and I get why he is hurt.  I have even seen some concerns about some of his teaching that wouldn't make me blink an eye.  With that said, as a pastor it's important to be clear...concise and upfront about your beliefs and what you are trying to teach.  Maybe some of his quotes about the inspiration of the Bible have been taken out of context.  That is not an unreasonable assumption.

With that said, each believer should discern for themselves.  For me, I am very open to looking at scripture in new and deeper ways.  But, I will not travel down the road of questioning the motives of the gospel writers.  I won't travel down the road of questioning the inspiration of scripture.  If a particular pastor does that, I will not listen without direct Holy Spirit intervention.  Like Jab, I have had dealings with this area in my life and it's not a place I want to go.  Each believer should test teachings.  Doing so is not an act of blasphemy.  Each believer should seek a teacher that feeds them, and avoid those that don't.  If Rob truly believes the Bible to be 100% inspired then I surely will listen to what he has to say.  But, if he questions that, without a leading from the Holy Spirit to do so, I won't.  It's as simple as that.  It's not about judging Rob the person, it's about discernment and testing the teachings being presented to us.

[Molly]

He's a very inspiring speaker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJLqyWAtpvE&feature=autoplay&list=ULwDUxMQy2cCA&index=6&playnext=1

[shawn]

I watched the videos of Rob defending his teachings and Mars Hill in general.  I didn't hear anything unsound or remotely questionable.  I'm still not sure how his beliefs fit in with his quotes from his book Velvet Elvis, but it's very good he has clarified.  I also agree it's possible to be more Bible focused than God focused.  Just like it's possible to be more sin focused than Christ focused.  But, let me stress that placing importance on scriptures, believing that the Bible is God breathed, inspired, and using it for teaching, rebuke and discernment is not a form of Bible worship. 


I've been going through his videos and I think I have found part of the issue some believers have with Rob. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttxZxiuVkUE&feature=related

The first time after listening to this I was really taken back.  I was like is he saying that if you repent of your sins, you are repenting to the wrong god?  Is Rob against repentance?  I don't know his stance on repentance.  But, I think it's these kinds of statements that really floor people and open his teaching up to misunderstanding.

I believe his main point is we are to live in what Christ has done for us.  If we are repenting as a way to manipulate God into doing something then we have a deep misunderstanding of repentance.  If that was his point, I would whole heartedly agree.  I believe repentance to be part of the process of healing in our lives.  It's a turning from, not lip service or a way to get God to do something.  It is finished!  We should indeed live in that.

Let me say something.  When I am wrong I try to be quick to repent.  If I have misjudged Rob's teachings based on out of context excerpts then I was wrong and would apologize to Rob directly.  What I know is after hearing his views on the inspiration of the Bible I am willing to listen.

[Molly]

I don't think you can listen to this guy out of context.

Here's an 80 min video--I haven't listened to it yet.

Everything is Spiritual

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=77024018179262526#

[Nathan]

You'll be greatly blessed by it, it's still my favorite one.  How'd you download the entire thing???