Just what is spirit

[micah7:9]

Much is spoken of about the spirit or a spirit.....we all have our thoughts, imaginations, and ideas...my question to all is...
WHAT IS SPIRIT.....what is it that we who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ His resurrection and His saving Blood shed upon a tree....what is spirit? There is much spoken of this "spirit," but what is it really?
There is much spoken of a "spirtual body" but as far as my search has gone, those two words use in unison  only found in.......
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

Other than this verse, are there any other referenences to implicate, as religion teaches, that man will have a "spiritual" body when he dies or before?
I see no evidence that man gets a spiritual body when he dies, man goes to dust, and his "spirit" returns to the one who gave it. The dead know not anything. Look up the scriptures in the Bible.

Just what is it that man supposes, considers, expects that a "spiritual" will be? I say that we have no idea, unless we really begin to consider that SPIRIT is a substance and that substance is the very belief IN the WORDS that Jesus spoke, believing that the words that He spoke are life and that what we are now in but a passing thing without real substance. Spirit is a realm, it is a place, it is home....but man fears or considers all that he sees and feels as a reallity...it is not! Orthodox religion has held us so far back in ignorance, that any thought outside of the "norm" is crazy. I say look a Martin Luther and the others who were "LIT BY HIS WORD" to push forward. I will stop here and say this IT AINT THRU TV!

[thinktank]

Good question. There seems to be a lots of different kinds of spirits spoken in the bible. I guess the definition might be something that has life. e.g holy spirit, unclean spirit, words of Jesus, spiritual body, angels are they not ministering spirits, who knoweth the thought's of man but the spirit that is in him.

[eaglesway]

I see that there is "spirit" as in the general sense, life, breath, being.

Then there is "a spirit". This seems to me to a spirit of specific identity, the specific spirit of a man or a specific disembodied spirit.

Then there is The Spirit as in the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit which is in specific all infusing being and energy of God that acts as an executor of His will and the manifestation of His life in all creation.

And then there is the Holy Spirit which I see as the specific life of God that is involved in the life of His Word among His people and the infilling power of the resurrected Christ whithin those who have received the "promise of the Spirit through faith".
I believe the Holy Spirit is manifested in different "embodiments" or "divisions" such as the divisions of light passing through a prism, and we are that prism, and the colors are the 7 spirits of God, such as the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, the spirit of power and might etc, there is a list somewhere- the 7 eyes in one stone.

I think the Spirit of Christ is the one stone spirit within the spirit of God. That all sounds too complicated and I think it is much more organic bu these are only my thoughts on the subject, added for the purpose of further discussion.

There is the "spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" which is a fog of chaos and a veil over the "consciouness" which is in the heart of man, i.e. "the eyes of the heart" and is what you get to when you "divide asunder soul and spirit".
The gospel is "Let there be light!" and "Awake o sleeper" and "Opening the blind eyes". peace, John

[micah7:9]

I understand the breath of life in Gen.2:7 is spirit... breath of life... is spirit(breathing or breath)

I do not understand or reason that the Spirit of Gen.1:2 is that breath of life, or the (breath) spirit of 
Ecc 12:7  ..... And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. that would be the breath of life that
made man a living soul.

There is one Spirit...Eph 4:3  being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace; Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

PEACE G1515 eirēnē  Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

UNITY G1775 henotēs   oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.

As one has said "endeavoring to KEEP the UNITY of the SPIRIT" the Spirit is One, He is not many He is One, we, those who hear must come to that ONE SPIRIT PEACE....
Isa 9:6  For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince(H8269 the Head) of Peace.
Spirit is ONE. 
1Jn 3:2  beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; and that I contend is SPIRIT.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
I believe that the substance of Spirit, is FAITH  Luk 18:8  I say to you, that He will execute the justice to them quickly; but the Son of Man having come, shall he find the faith upon the earth?'


Heb 11:1

(ASV)  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

(CLV) Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed;"

(KJV)  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

(Rotherham)  But faith is, of things hoped for, a confidence, of facts, a conviction, when they are not seen;

(RYLT-NT)  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

(WNT)  Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.



(YLT)  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

[micah7:9]

I know that thoughts on this are as vaccant as mine, yet so much is spoken of "spiritual bodies" today in the legions of religion that ......my question is what is a spiritual body?" Other than 1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
I find no teaching or ministering on this subject by Paul, yet it seems to me that all of christianity offers this premis to its believers. What is a "spiritual body?"
I  know that my speak is different, its different because the offering of orthodox religion, traditional religion, denominational religion all speak the same, so I must ask, just what is a spirtual body? I know that I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but is it not our assumption that it is a "spiritual body?" Do I believe in the Spirit? His Spirit? The answer is yes, it is my expectation, it is  my hope, it is what He promised...but do I have any idea as to what it will be.....NO!

I believe it is time we, all of those who believe,begin to awaken to the truth that what nominal and orthodox religion has offered and pushed down our gulliable throats is mans good wishes and good intentions and it so far from the heart and mind of the Creator and Savior has in store for those who believe and overcome.

[jabcat]

Paul didn't talk about it that I know of, other than to say "it is raised a spiritual body".

I don't know, but do you think it could be something like Jesus had after the crucifixion and his resurrection?  He was seen by people, ate food, but could apparently pass through walls and "transport" from one place to another.  Could it be something so "foreign" to us, we really can't get a good handle on it, as none of us have (probably) seen one?   :dontknow:

Or do you think it's something else, brother micah?

[micah7:9]

The thought that we still believe and accept that as you said " but could apparently pass through walls," we find HIM of more apparition than whole and complete says alot about what we know or belive we know. The Jesus I know and believe in did not "pass through walls," HE WAS THERE IN THEIR MIDST. There was not a passing through, He IS I AM, He is, was, and always HERE! Paul had seen the Lord in all His brightness, we have only been told of that brightness. I believe that we, human beings have absolutly no idea of what we are talking about when we talk about "spiritual bodies," we think of ghost and the paranormal things, movies, and folk lore. Spirit is very real and it has substance, but it is faith Heb 11:1  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Heb 11:2  for in this were the elders testified of;
Heb 11:3  by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

I will confess that what words I speak are weak for understanding, but I know this one thing as long as we stay where the tent stakes of the last revealing and revival of His Word was given, we will be just as left off as all religion to this point and time.
Spirit is made of  of faith, faith is the substance that will reveal spirit, and spirit will be embraced by His Spirit..the Overcomer, His Sons manifested. Glory and Glory again!

[jabcat]

Let me see if I can get my head around what you may be saying.  Are you saying Jesus didn't "appear" to them, He was already there?  Already in the room where they were gathered (in the John 20 description of him suddenly appearing), as a spirit, and they just weren't aware of him?

I looked at the John 20 passage and some discussion, and it seems some say he "passed through walls" (as I guess I'd heard and believed) while others say no, they just noticed Him and they were startled.  Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him, 3) somehow He made Himself aware to them? And if so, how?  by taking on a physical appearance, a manifestation they could recognize?   Or none of these or all them?  lol

So many things to ponder.  :)

And bottom line, you're driving at some deeper meaning, right?  That we're not aware of His presence as we should be for example?

[thinktank]

I think when the texts says, "by faith he made the worlds" proves that he is apart from the substance of faith.

I think this is more plausable, as I cannot see God, abiding his time, by becoming an oak tree, but rather his power his glory, the work of his hands is manifested into the oak tree. As another scripture says the earth is the work of his hands and the earth is his footstool. So in a sense he is everywhere because his works are everywhere, but here is the limits of my understanding as what he means by I AM, that is debatable and I am not sure if my theory fits the equation 100%, I think though that one half of the equation makes sense to me, i.e that God doesn't crawl around under stones, unless he enjoys weightlifting (connies, proverbs).

[micah7:9]

Let me see if I can get my head around what you may be saying.  Are you saying Jesus didn't "appear" to them, He was already there?  Already in the room where they were gathered (in the John 20 description of him suddenly appearing), as a spirit, and they just weren't aware of him?

I looked at the John 20 passage and some discussion, and it seems some say he "passed through walls" (as I guess I'd heard and believed) while others say no, they just noticed Him and they were startled.  Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him, 3) somehow He made Himself aware to them? And if so, how?  by taking on a physical appearance, a manifestation they could recognize?   Or none of these or all them?  lol

So many things to ponder.  :)

And bottom line, you're driving at some deeper meaning, right?  That we're not aware of His presence as we should be for example?

"Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him," Both of these.
Mat 18:20  for where there are two or three gathered together--to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'
Heb 13:5  "........ for He hath said, `No, I will not leave, no, nor forsake thee,' "

Yes something deeper in the sense that we have not begun to understand and see Spirit past being something we cant see and  just embrace it as such. I dont know myself, but I have come to believe that Spirit is substance and it is by faith that Spirit is seen and can be touched as Thomas did.

Again we read in Luke 4:29-30  "Luk 4:30  and he, having gone through the midst of them, went away."
Also Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'
I Am is SPIRIT (Jo. 4:24 God is Spirit)
Joh 8:59  they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I do not see faith with these folk, so He was not seen, and was gone not even there.

[AJ]

The following snippets in (purple) were spoken to a group of believers in England ...by different holy angelic human spirits - through a woman sitting in a wheel chair.
It sometimes included - David Livingstone, Kate Naish, Florence Nightingale. General William Booth and others.
Between
the 1920's and the 1950's there were about  1500 messages given to this group.  This group, were believers in UR.
================================================================================

- "But you each one can do likewise, for are there not the sick in other planes, in other worlds, waiting for your love-vibration, waiting for the compassion that is stored within?
They are lepers in every sense of the word. The garment in which they take their way in the dark planes is terrible to behold; loathsome, horrifying to contact, in your language, are their conditions, for the stench of iniquity overpowers the untrained.
*******
- "Such as these are waiting for you; for you in your quiet moments to send out healing power. Oh, pray to the Father that you may have the courage and the faith and the will to be a missionary during the sleep-state among such as these, healing their wounds, grappling with their chains, forgiving them as they have sinned against you a thousand, thousand times, winning them at last by love. And there is no healing power that can touch the soul but love. Then love on, love on!
******
"You see your work lies clearly before you, you see how easy it is to be a medium in the God sense; you realize that after all it was not essential that you should have psychic gifts.
The gifts of the Spirit you have, you have already the power to heal the tortured bodies of souls in the dark planes; and you have also the power to heal the sick on earth by the sending out of the love-vibrations, asking the great Healer of all Life to use you, if He wills.

http://christianspiritualism.org/messages/cleanleper.htm
and
http://www.christianspiritualism.org/messages/zodiactable.htm

=============================================================================================
The following happened to me – Allen Steinhauer, Eau Claire, Wis. 

Jan 18, 2011, 7PM –
--  After reading the above in (purple)....I decided to pray for a spirit of God's choosing - if He so willed it.
I asked the Father to help me minister to a specific lost soul of His choosing - that now exists in a darkened twilight plane.
-- As I began to wait on the Lord, I sensed I was greatly hindered. Strangely, I found I couldn't even hold my head up and my thoughts seemed very confusing.

-- After a few moments of this - I asked Christ the Master for insight.  It was revealed to me that a hindering spirit was trying to rob me of a victory and that it was greatly restricting me from advancing.
-- So I began to quietly and gently talk to that spirit.
I began by telling this soul/ spirit – that it was my fellow human spirit...that had moved on to the World of spirits.

-- I told the spirit that I loved them and forgave them for the confusing thoughts. 
I explained the plan of salvation...(i.e.)who the Heavenly Father was.  Who the Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Savior of the world was, and what the purpose was for Jesus the Christ, the Savior to come to earth and what Son of God wants to do for it.
-- I explained to that spirit what my desire was.  To see that this hindering spirit, would be set free, changed, transformed into a new creation, set free by God's only begotten Son...Jesus the Christ. 
I began by asking the Father that His will be done and for power to be given to break the chains that bound this one, to open the prison doors so that this beloved darken soul may escape it's prison.

-- I told the spirit it needed to confess it's past faults and further believe and genuinely seek the Master Christ , the Great Life-Bringer, because the Savior of the world would surely accept him/her.
I pointed to a little speck of light ahead, which is the Glory of God and informed it to keep its focus on the light.

--I then began to push, shove, pull, whatever I could do to help that one to begin to move towards the light.
After much prayer and words of encouragement, I sensed a breakthrough that this one was moving forward, but oh so slowly, in the right direction. I got underneath and pushed this one along.  It was difficult work and but its movement was slow and deliberate. I felt encouraged within myself that all was going to be O.K. for this one.

--But then, I suddenly began to experience great doubts and lack of faith and confusion in my mind ...about what had just previously transpired.
These negative feelings stopped me in my tracks.
--After a few moments....I realized that this was a different spirit trying to obstruct and block the work that had just been done.
I immediately began to pray for this doubting and confusing spirit, and starting at the beginning...began explaining the plan of salvation, just as I had with the first one.
After many moments, I again began to experience a slow  but sure victory for this one also.

--Then all of a sudden, I felt utterly overwhelmed with darkness - and that a great struggle from the underworld had begun. 
I did not see any dark spirits, but somehow perceived that numerous evil spirits (dark human spirits) had gathered around this last spirit – not only to try and hinder its progress, but to bring havoc and destruction upon it.
Not knowing what to do
...I immediately cried out to the Father for help, because we were in immediate danger and distress and needed a great power to help us.

--Instantly, I experienced a tremendous rush of ( almost explosive)  power that enveloped both I and that spirit.
The power was so great I was literally thrown backwards into my chair.
I felt to be almost over whelmed by an incredible sense of power.
--It seemed as though, even the air I was breathing was seething with great power.
As strange as this may seem...it was as though I could taste it and smell the power.
But interestingly....there was not a sound or any noise.
I sensed that there was like an instant hedge built around both of us.
I believe that numerous holy angels (holy saints) had come to our aid.
--When the darkness struggle was gone,
I knew that God had prevailed...for both that spirit...and I.
Whether it was a hedge around us or that the darkness was simply driven back...I am not sure of.
After this relief was acknowledge...I experienced a time of rejoicing, laughter, weeping for joy and hand clapping.

--I then saw a long white cord coming down from above - began to wrap around this last spirit, like a cocoon, from the bottom upward towards the top.  The wrapping process took a lot of time.  To the point that I almost became impatient.
--Because of the length of the time it took the white cord - to wrap around this spirit, I tried more than once to concentrate, very deliberately -  to get a clear view and vision of the substance of this spirit – but, as strange as it sounds, it was like there was no definite shape to it.
It was something that constantly changed structure, form and shape.

--The only way I could describe it...would be like a liquid mirror, constantly moving, twisting, winding, and changing from long to short to wide and then bending every which way.  There were definite shades of blackness and grays and then flashes of white mixed throughout it.
--I think the only thing I could say with surety about a spirit, is that they are not stagnant, but very active and constantly changing shape.  They are utterly unearthed like.


The following pic's is my feeble attempt to show in a visual way what I had seen.


http://home.comcast.net/~fractalsbykeith/pgs/frac238.htm

This first pic - has way to much more color in it – but it does closely define
the likeness and image of the twilight spirit that I witnessed. 
What I observed was much....much darker than this.


http://home.comcast.net/~fractalsbykeith/pgs/frac228.htm

This second pic - illustrates the overall scene I saw – though in reality,
it was a great deal darker than this.
Remember...this spirit was still in the twilight plane....a little light, but mostly darkness.


--A further thought...
Perhaps, because my own spirit was inexperienced with this phenomenon  - 
I was not yet be able to wholly  distinguish a fully dark spirit,... nor be able to gaze on a brilliant holy angelic spirit. 
--This is my concept or impression of that experience......accordingly, I understand that someone else seeing the very same scene....may have an entirely different perceptive.

--I sensed that the wrapping of the white cord...around that spirit that it was needed for its protection, because it still existed in a dangerous area.
I then told that newly released spirit that I would come to it during my sleep tonight, where further encouragement would be provided and we could get better acquainted.

--I now understand that this kind of work might be done as a regular duty for the every believer.
There is virtually no excuse for a child of the Light to not work - to set as many captives free as possible.
I now know that my mission world is no longer – limited to the physical life of human souls on this physical earth...but that I / we all can and must move forward /advance for the liberty of all souls - everywhere.

--I also understand that no one can work without divine aid in the dark areas, and no one can work in the darkest regions except in a group...and even these holy ones must be covered with a veil...lest the darken spirits freak out.
Remember Moses,... he had to be veiled because of the Glory of God.
--Spiritual progress is ever upwards;  very slowly though it may be, and much personal effort is required.  The Master has helped and continues to do so but, our own personal effort is also essential.

--There are numerous  brothers and sisters in darkness....and will remain in darkness until, fellow children of the Light, aid them in coming into the Light of God.  This deliverance / reconciliation ministry may involve billions and billions of lost souls...and each one needs special individual attention.
--When Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest...he truly meant it.
Oh, to be a connoisseur of heavenly Spiritual truths.

[reFORMer]

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (1901 American Standard)
[9] When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, [11] or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12] For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [13] Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah thy God. [14] For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (New American Standard)
[9] "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. [10] "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, [11] or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. [12] "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. [13] "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. [14] "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (Young's Literal)
[9] `When thou art coming in unto the land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee, thou dost not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations: [10] there is not found in thee one causing his son and his daughter to pass over into fire, a user of divinations, an observer of clouds, and an enchanter, and a sorcerer, [11] and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead. [12] `For the abomination of Jehovah [is] every one doing these, and because of these abominations is Jehovah thy God dispossessing them from thy presence. [13] Perfect thou art with Jehovah thy God, [14] for these nations whom thou art possessing, unto observers of clouds, and unto diviners, do hearken; and thou -- not so hath Jehovah thy God suffered thee.

[jabcat]

I'm a supporter of my brother AJ, but something about those quotes from those folks was disturbing to me (my spirit?).  I'm not complaining, but commenting that it would sure take more thought and revelation from the Lord for me to ever "go there".  The scrip you quote is relevant reF.

[micah7:9]

I agree with reFORMer and the verses in Deut.  :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

I do believe that what AJ brought forth with those quotes were real and probabaly happened, but I believe that other than allowing the incidences to happen, Elohiem, Jehovah Lord had nothing to do with it. And He says so in Deut. 18:9
I do not believe in spiritualizing, or spiritualism I believe in spirit and I believe in the Holy Spirit; I believe there is a spiritual body, I do not know if I believe in spiritual bodies.  But this is just me.

[thinktank]

It sounds like a good idea to pray for lost spirits, but I think the word says to not pray for the dead. Looking at what the woman experienced it seems a risky practice, that seems to provokes dark forces.
There are plenty to pray for in the land of the living, perhaps in future when christ rules, we might pray for lost spirits, something to do with the lake of fire perhaps  :dontknow:

[AJ]

Greetings --- reFORMer, jabcat, micah7:9, thinktank:

First - I want to say I appreciate each of your kind responses.
I do realize that this could be a volatile topic.
And many of the feelings that you are expressing....I had myself - when I first began to read this material.

My purpose in this response – is simple to give another viewpoint.
It is not my place to convince anyone -  that's the job of the Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless – we are exhorted to express the hope that lies within us.

I am familiar with the verses that were given - and that was my first inclination that seemed against this view also.
But...if that was all that the Sacred Record had to say on the subject, then that would be the end of the subject.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I knew almost nothing, zilch, about the spirit world...thus, I decided to search further to see if this NEW / PERSPECTIVE could be true.


I would now like to attempt to show by the Scriptures that some men that die may be angels....and that men/angels may come back to visit the Saints of God with permission from God - to instruct, bring  messages, warnings, and hope.
I realize that preachers have told it's congregation for hundreds of years that angels are a completely separate creation other than human beings.


The following is a piece of a parable taught from our Lord.  If it were not possible for a dead person to return to earth and instruct those still living on earth...for the benefit of the hearer, then why would Christ even bring it up at all?
Luke 16:30-31
And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It is my (understanding/interpretation) of the above verses that the rich man or his brothers were walking in darkness and none were in a position to hear any message that may be given by Lazarus...even if he came back from the dead.

Does that mean that no one is in a position to hear anyone who came back from the DEAD?...No.
Our Lord came back from the dead....some responded positively and some negatively.


In John 11 – we read of another Lazarus being raised from the dead, some believed...and then  in  John 12:9-11 others wanted to kill him.


Now consider this:
An angel came to John...this angel stated that he was:
(a) a fellowservant, (b) of the brethren of the prophets, (c) one of those who kept the sayings of God.
And told John that he was to worship God...not (an angel/a man).

Rev 22:8-9 –
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 19:9-10
9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

From the above verses – we see (2) different places that speak of angels – who were formerly men on earth.


Here we see that Jesus doesn't come himself....but sends angels to testify unto the churches.
Rev 22:6 -
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Again – Jesus Christ sends his angels to the churches:
Rev 2:1- and following:
"the angel of the church in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira ,  Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and etc,:

Lastly:
One should also realize that not all of God's truth, plan, and purpose have been revealed yet....through the written word.
Case in Point:
Daniel 9:24 -
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
Daniel 12:9 –
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
And
Rev 10:4 –
4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

There is revelation / understanding that is yet to be revealed.  And how is God going to reveal this info?
Yup...by angels....who were men that had previously lived before on the earth as men.

I have more to say on this subject...but I'll close for now.
New time...I'd like to show that some verses show that Christ returns it's
with the 'saints' and then other verses show that he returns with 'angels'.

Peace, AJ.

[Molly]

Cool stuff, AJ.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet Act 1, scene 5



14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1



MATTHEW 16:27 (Jesus)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[micah7:9]

I  just wonder what it is you are atempting to bring forth? You believe in "angels" (which are messengers) and that humans who expire come back as communicators to the living? Is that correct?
For me you sound mysterious, but not real. I KNOW that God expresses Himself to those who have ears to hear.
I do not believe that Jehovah is one who would even think about capitalizing on the feats and foolishness of those who attempt expressing themselves in bu--crap.
What is it you are trying to say and bring forth?

[jabcat]

I'd ask that we strive to stay in the "realm" (pun intended) of "kind replies".   :mblush:

[reFORMer]

I agree with you AJ concerning angels (at least in some cases) as men who have happened upon the resurrection (if that is what you mean to say.)  But, those who are not raised, who are in death, we are not to accept communication between us and them.  Right after my dad died I experienced a numinous presence I discerned as the spirit of my dad, only without sin.  What it was, I believe, is the personal "recording angel" that is intermeshed with us from conception to death, and perhaps in some senses, beyond.  Everyone has at least one assigned, if not two or three, besides other angels assigned to us at different events and periods in our lives.  This experience was a blessing to me, making it easier for me to forgive him with an understanding heart.

In answer to the OP I would commend something I intend to repeat doing.  I learned it from some Chinese Christians associated with their "Local Church" movement.  There used to be available colored pencils that were one color on one end and another color on the other.  One was blue and red.  Another was yellow and green.  Perhaps there was a third.  I don't remember.  But, these were convenient to carry, had the benefit of not bleeding through the paper, and were long lasting for the price.  At any rate, in the books of 1st and 2nd Corinthians, specially 2nd, while considering the context of each occurrence, I used the color blue, for the heaven is blue, and colored every occurrence of the word "spirit" in any form:  spirit, spirits, and spiritual.  Because in the first letter to the Corinthians the apostle decries their carnality and lack of being spiritual, we can suppose in these two letters there is a ministry of the word to correct their defect.  Some have commented that 2 Corinthians is the most spiritual book in the entire Bible.  Other than perhaps "Revelation," and perhaps "The Song of Songs," I would agree.

I would add this observation.  Several places in Scripture there is the statement that, "There is only one spirit."  For about nine months, whenever I encountered a certain friend of mine (which was every day) he would immediately say those words to me:  "There is only one spirit," usually loudly and with vigor.  For a while in the beginning I would answer it was obvious there exists the Spirit of God, and spirits good and evil, as well as human spirits; that the context was God's Spirit in union with us.  It is not meant that a bunch of spirits should inhabit us.  After a while what he said as soon as he saw me would just irk me and I would ignore it.  Finally, after his faithfulness for nine months, it was revealed to me how that statement was a greater revelation of reality than I had known.  Additionally, it is written, "There is only one body."  This also is true.  Everything in the physical realm can be inhabited by spirit.  Even our own personal body is constantly discarding material in the physical and incorporating new matter.  It depends on the physical stuff surrounding us in our environment for it's own continuance.  I have gone forth in spirit and experienced a lake, for instance, as one would experience his own body.  In Phillipians it tells of Jesus descending that He might ascend to fill all things with Himself.  The glory that is coming includes the entire creation as well as our embodiment.  "Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ!"



James

[Molly]

Daniel 10

1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

2In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;

5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

[micah7:9]

And what and thus?

[Molly]

And what and thus?

It's an encounter with the supernatural--clearly a world of spirits.

And, there are lots of things going on.

[micah7:9]

Supernatural that is your word? And you are saying that we encounter the "supernatural?" And that there are alot of "things" goin on?
I have to say that is not an answer far from what I expected.
So you think or know or feel or something that the SPIRIT is a supernatural encounter, is that right? Well Glory!

[AJ]

Greetings again,
Because of the nature of this topic and the amount of questions that this subject may generate ....I cannot possibly answer all question in one setting.
Please bear with me...we all can/should learn from one another. 
I am working through this myself. 
I am now trying to set a premise....a ground work.
I will get to your q's as soon as I can.

O.K.  I'll try to address this verse first:

Deuteronomy 189-14 (1901 American Standard)
[9] When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, [11] or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12] For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [13] Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah t
hy God. [14] For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Deuteronomy 189-14 (New American Standard)
[9] "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. [10] "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, [11] or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. [12] "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. [13] "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. [14] "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

Deuteronomy 189-14 (Young's Literal)
[9] `When thou art coming in unto the land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee, thou dost not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations: [10] there is not found in thee one causing his son and his daughter to pass over into fire, a user of divinations, an observer of clouds, and an enchanter, and a sorcerer, [11] and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead. [12] `For the abomination of Jehovah [is] every one doing these, and because of these abominations is Jehovah thy God dispossessing them from thy presence. [13] Perfect thou art with Jehovah thy God, [14] for these nations whom thou art possessing, unto observers of clouds, and unto diviners, do hearken; and thou -- not so hath Jehovah thy God suffered thee.


This O.T. verse is very plain.
It is an abomination unto God to 'call up the dead'.
The question that needs to be addressed is...what is the motive?

Didn't the Lord Jesus Christ – call up the dead when he spoke unto Lazarus and raised him from the grave?
So was this work of Christ an abomination?
I tell you plainly:
Neither the work of Christ - nor what I did was an abomination.  We were not practicing divination, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizardry.  We are not charmers, necromancers or enchanters.
If I am to be labeled as an abomination....then so must Christ Jesus.

There is a world of difference- between trying to help a lost soul/spirit who is in darkness unto the light of God or raising the dead.... then to be a witch who only works in dark realms.



Back to the issue I said I would address last time:
The following verses are all declaring the very same event.

In Matt 16:27, 2 Thess 1:7, Christ coming is with angels messengers.
In 1 Thess 3:13, Jude 1:14,  Christ's coming with the holy saints.
In Matt 25:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26, Christ's coming is with what is called both the holy saints and angel messengers.
In Rev 19:14, Christ's coming is with armies which are in heaven.

Does this prove without a doubt -  that saints and angels and armies in heaven are the same thing....maybe, maybe not.

Matthew 16:27 (KJV)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels (Gr - aggelos = angel messenger); and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The above verse uses 'angel messenger'.

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints) angels (Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

Mark 8:38 (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)angels.(Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger).
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

Luke 9:26 (KJV)
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)angels.(Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger)
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV)
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. (Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger)
The above verse uses 'angel messenger'.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)
The above verse uses ' holy saint'.

Jude 1:14 (KJV)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)
The above verse uses ' holy saint'.

Revelation 19:14 (KJV)
And the armies (Gr-strateuma = body of troops, army)   which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.