Someone help me, please...

[jabcat]

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

One thing I've thought about all this Taf, is that also all the OT things are temporal/temporary, in the sense that all those people will ultimately be restored/made new in the kingdom - for eternity - which will make what they went through in their brief life (although sometimes horrible, as we humans perceive it) not even a drop in the ocean for them.  Same for us (thank Him for His blessings). 

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  Romans 8:18

[Taffy]

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me. This is just wrong. He couldn't have had innocent children and babies murdered and pregnant women ripped apart.

whats written in the OT,for me, that which comes first is the [NATURAL]  conceals, being LATER REVEALED in the NT [ Spiritual]- the old is full of types , shadows and patterns as with the Tabernacle\Temple or The Holy Days[ Lev 23] .

The pattern layed out in the garden continues throughout the scrptures , but its hidden from the carnal EYE- we are SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODYand its this pattern which continues .

you may ask "what on earth has this to do with Children women slaughtered etc" - heres one dimension

if you take the forerunner OC= Old jerusalem as a Type, of NC.- as Christ is the head\Husband SPIRIT , wife \Soul[ Levites] and Body \Children =Israel

Husband wife and Children = spirit soul and Body  are those used by the LORD to usher in the reality in the new CHRIST- The law being a  TRUE doctrine and to be kept\preserved.

so for mine I relate Husband wife and offspring  as  ONE Doctrine- when Israel KEPT the law and were faithful they were blessed, failing to do so they were Cursed , ANYTHING LESS then THE true DOCTRINE IS fALSE DOCTRINE - which is Likened to LIFE and DEATH-

WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False

Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

seems all rather harsh but DEATH has to DIE for ONE TO LIVE- :icon_flower:
Best way Im given to explain it - :icon_flower:

One thing I've thought about all this Taf, is that also all the OT things are temporal/temporary, in the sense that all those people will ultimately be restored/made new in the kingdom - for eternity - which will make what they went through in their brief life (although sometimes horrible, as we humans perceive it) not even a drop in the ocean for them.  Same for us (although we thank Him for the blessings). 

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  Romans 8:18

AMEN Jab :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

[jabcat]

Yes!    And I was thinking about this topic earlier.  In the OT, God was dealing with His people Israel, in a barbaric time, with barbaric enemies.  It was all a literal shadow of the spiritual that was to come.  Those things in the OT are for our teaching, illustrating the Now - now, when (mostly) our battles are within ourselves, the battle of the flesh vs. the spirit that Christ is raising up within us, with the call to "come out", to be one with Him - and as you say, wed to our bridegroom.

Is that supposed to make all right the murdering of small children, the smashing the heads of babies against rocks and ripping pregnant women apart? I don't call pregnant women, children and babies "barbaric enemies". And I really don't see how such horrors could be for our teaching. Instead of defending Him at all cost, people, you could provide me with articles or material about mistranslations, misinterpretations and Bible corruption pertaining to the O.T. I haven't find any yet.

And it's not an actual "wedding" and our heavenly Father is not our actual "bridegroom". It's a stronger kind of spiritual relationship between Him and His human children...

:eeew:

I suggest you study these things for yourself.

Christ is pictured as the "bridegroom", but the wedding is not an actual wedding. It is the actual day when Christ is united with all those who have been washed clean.

Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage: but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Michelle, you're angry, but people are trying to help you.   The marriage/bridegroom etc. is symbolic language.   

I don't think there are the mistranslations you appear to be looking for, that is, if you're hoping things in the OT aren't true or have been distorted beyond current recognition.  I believe folks have said some good things to you, again, trying to help. 

[Taffy]

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

[pneuma]

Hi Michelle, I stopped by Tents today (have not been here in a long while, had to reregister in order to post today) and read your concerns here and was prompted to write you. Many, many questions Michelle,  I have asked many of those same questions Michelle and although I cannot answer all of them, I will give you what I have received.


Let me start by saying that all scripture is inspired by God but not everything in our bibles is scripture.

A few examples:

Jeremiah 8:8 speaks about the lying pen of the scribes adding to the Law of Moses.

Written in the book of the Law of Moses we read

Numbers 30:2
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. 

Deuteronomy 23:21
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee.


However, according to Jesus we are not to swear at all, but let our communication be yea, yea, or nay, nay.

Matthew 5:33-37
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Jesus' words are a total contradiction to what is written in Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21.

A couple of things to take note of in what Jesus says in Matthew 5:33-37.

First, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the  law of forswearing comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Secondly, some people have tried to tell me that this is only to show the difference between the old covenant and the new covenant. However, if this is the case then God changed His mind about what He wants from us and if God changes His mind about what He wants from us then His word is not steadfast. And if Gods word is not steadfast what assurances do we have that God will not change His mind again and again?

Thirdly, Jesus says whatsoever is more then yea and nay cometh from EVIL. So if forswearing ourselves came from God as Numbers 30:2 and Deuteronomy 23:21 suggest then Jesus would be saying God is EVIL or what God speaks is EVIL.

So we are left with a choice, we can either believe God changes His mind concerning what He wants from us, making His word not steadfast, or we can believe what Jeremiah stated in 8:8 that the lying pen of the Scribes have changed Gods laws into lies.

We see this same lying pen of the Scribe in the horrendous eye for an eye doctrine that the Scribes attributed to Moses in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21

Exodus 21:22-24
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Deuteronomy 19:21
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

But Jesus says that ye resist not evil.

Matthew 5:38-42
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Jesus' words again are in total contradiction to what is written in Exodus 21:21-24, Leviticus 24:19-20 and Deuteronomy 19:21.


Take note of  what Jesus says in Matthew 5:38-42

Again, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said.

And again, Jesus purposely chose the words ye have heard that it hath been said instead of it is written to show us that the law of an eye for an eye comes from the lying pen of the Scribes and is an addition to the law of Moses, but attributed to Moses by those same Scribes.

Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Take note that again Jesus uses the same manner of speech, Jesus does not say it is written, but says ye have heard that it hath been said. Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Oh, oh Houston we have a problem.
Nowhere is it stated in the bible that we are to hate our enemy.
Did Jesus make a blunder when he said you have heard that it hath been said?
NO, absolutely, NO, Jesus did not blunder when he said this.
So what is going on?
Everything else Jesus referenced in these sets of scripture is found written somewhere in the Law of Moses being an addition by the lying pen of the Scribes, but attributed to Moses. So why do we not find the term hate thine enemy also recorded?
Most probably, this saying by the lying Scribes was a new saying in Jesus' time and would have been added by them but Jesus forestalled them from adding this saying by telling us to love our enemy.
No matter how one looks at it, forswearing, eye for an eye and hate thine enemy are a total contradiction to what Jesus tells us.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?

Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won't do it.

And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.

Witness 1Jn.5:7

Witness Mk.16:9-20

Neither of which are in the oldest and best manuscripts.

Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.

Some might not like it but those are the FACTS.

Some people have told me that the bible is the word of God and everything in it is of Him and by Him and that He most surely could have protected it all through history.
First let me say there is only ONE WORD OF GOD, that being Jesus Christ and everything that proceeds from His mouth. Therefore the bible cannot be the word of God as history and scripture shows man has tampered with it, adding to it and taking away from it.
Michelle are you getting the picture? Not everything in our bibles is inspired by God or scripture. Man has tampered so much with the scriptures, adding and taking away from them, that the bibles today bring in much confusion. My suggestion to you and everyone else is to take every thought (especially the thoughts recorded in the bible) captive to Christ and see what He says about them.

continued....

[pneuma]

Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

[redhotmagma]

Pneuma that was beautiful, what about "all scripture is God breathed"?  I was lockstep with you until that popped into my head.  A thought that even in the scribes lying pen, Father being who He is used those stories as patterns for us, (which would lead me possibly to the conclusion that they misunderstood, since He was laying the pattern and they carnalized it) either way What man meant for evil God meant for good.   :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Gary will be posting on this OT issue soon.  He has studied it extensively, has a heart for those struggling with these issues (who doesn't?) and has some points he'd like to make that honestly, are different than some of the views pneuma has presented.  Textual criticism is such a slippery slope, some just take advantage of the opportunity and things deteriorate quickly. 

Love and grace prevail, and the desire is to minister and pursue the truth.   :HeartThrob:

[thinktank]

Luke 14:26 Jesus speaking, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Why not stick to the passage saying "He whloves them more them me is not worthy of me"? Why using the word "hate"?


This passage also sometimes makes me angry at God, but so does most of the bible. It's just a matter of thinking things through. Some passages in the bible are easy enough for a child to understand and it's pleaseant to read, but then passages like this come along, which at first glance is infuriating, but if you take passages like these as a maths equation they do fit into the sum if you take other scriptures to balance it. I.e love him enough so that, in comparison love for your familly feels like hate, this fits the maths equation, where Jesus said to love one another, but if you take the scripture to mean hate as in "hate", then the maths equation no longer fits, because the other passage is in contradiction to this one.

He had small children and babies killed and pregnant women ripped apart. Give me a good reason why I should trust Him with my mother and sister? And give me a good reason why I should keep loving Him more than them if He ever do something horrible to them? I could never tolerate anyone hurting them, not even God. If something horrible happens to my mother and sister that I love so much, then I will never be able to love Him ever again, unless He forces me to...

I think perhaps you are relying too heavilly on human minds to explain the divine. I.e putting trust in me that I will be able to deliver a message. Put not faith in the arm of man but in the living God.

One thing I think is that Gods love is different to human love. I think that people can love more than God in some instances, by being inspired to save people, feed them etc in their limited power, while God sits in heaven with all his power, to deliver, drinking tea.

I think it helps to know that God is the one in charge so to speak, and even though things ideally could be much better, doing this in reality is beyond human capacity. I.e how can man create an earth, or formulate dna patterns, we simply do not possess the power. The good news is that the force that controls the universe is not eternal evil, I mean in this world look how hitler etc gained power, imagine if something of his character was God.

So even though God is not ideal in many cases and falls short of our expectations, he is the best we got, and on another level is actually beyond our ideals, because the thought that the force, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob that governs and spans the universe, is actually interested in our puny lives, is mind boggling. Also earlier I said God is ding nothing and drinking tea, may seem to be the truth at times, but I know that God works very hard to bring blessings into people's lives (That's a lot of people 600 billion?+ kids, to take careof!!!!), not only when he walked the earth, but also when he is in heaven.

So I think maybe a good attitude for you would be similar to Jobs, the lord giveth the lord taketh. Would that work for you?

[Gary Amirault]

AAARRRHHHHGGGHHH!
I posted a reply to Michelle and Pneuma that I was almost finished with, walked away, went into a couple other programs and came back here and lost all my post. So how I gotta start all over again. grrr. This will be a shorter version than what I originally had in here. My fingers are getting tired. This will not be edited so expect many typos.

First, Michelle, I surely understand your statement about why God doesn't save us at an early age. God revealed himself to me at age 37. I used to wish he could have spared me much childhood misery, but today, I see that misery has served a purpose, a good purpose. I've discovered God "works" all things to my good and He will work all your pain and suffering to YOUR good in due season. And He will wipe away all your tears. He knows each tear you've shed individually.

Now regarding the many verses of the Bible you quoted that do not make sense to you if God is truly a loving God. There are many who have advocated things like pneuma suggested, lay the blame for these gross appearing verses to the "lying pen of the Scribes." I don't think this works for a number of reasons and I can't get into much of what I'd like to say to you because it truly fills a book which I've been developing in my mind for a long time.

The prophets who wrote the Law and the prophets did not understand what they were writing. Some asked to look into the words, but most were not allowed understanding. Moses was told when he set up the Mosaic tabernacle and seemingly bizarre sacrificial system to be careful and make everything exactly to the pattern because it was patterned after heavenly things. So the law was a shadow, it was NOT reality. Children are afraid of shadows , they often see things that aren't really there. Some say thrown out the shadowy scriptures because they are simply too gross.  That's a big mistake. I'm not saying come UNDER the shadow of the law, we are not under law but grace, but we can learn from the law and theprophets which point to a higher reality.

Some say, all the O.T. are simply myths borrowed from the Egyptians or the Babylonians and modified to fit the Jews. I've read many books and articles on documentary hypothesis, JEPD theory, etc. I've watched many documentaries and videos saying Christianity and Judaism is based upon ancient myths, that we shouldn't really take the scriptures, especially the O.T. as divine.  Believe me, I have in my library much material (and I read it) that casts a very dark shadow over the Bible, especially portions of the Bible that speak of genocide, strange rituals like stoning your rebellious children, etc. But over the years God has given me much light and understanding of parts of the Bible that seemed at first to be just ridiculous and barbaric stuff. Many want to attribute what they don't understand  to the "lying pen of the scribes." I think that's a mistake too. Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law (first five books of the Bible) would be removed from the law till all things be fulfilled.

On the road to Emaus after the crucifixion, were two of Jesus' disciples quite discouraged. Jesus appeared to them but was not recognized. (that's important). He then explained to them the crucifixion in the light of the law and the prophets. He opened to them understanding. Well these disciples obviously KNEW the scriptures. They probably had large chunks memorized, but they did not truly see them in the light of revelation. When He explained things their hearts were burning. When Jesus broke the bread, their eyes were opened.  Michelle, many Christians and universalists at boards like EU, WU and CU are saying one can throw out from the Bible what doesn't make sense or does not conform to one's concept of a loving god. Folks are saying to just go by your conscience or inner voice and decide for yourself what scriptures are divine and what aren't. They are calling Kaballah and Zoar (Jewish mysticism) as divine as the Bible. They are mixing all kinds of nonsense with whatever part of the Bible they have decided they want to embrace and making customized religions after their own carnal minds. I've seen many Christians who have embraced universalism go down this path and its end is not enlightenment.

Yes, on the mount of transfiguration the voice said "This is my beloved Son, hear HIM" and Moses and Elijah faded away in this VISION. Yes, the law and prophets (shadow) must give way to the LIVING WORD of the Son of God. But that doesn't mean the Law and prophets didn't serve a purpose in God's plan. One cannot understand the book of Revelation without understanding the O.T. because Revelation quotes the O.T. over 200 times.

Look, those who wrote the O.T. didn't understand what they were writing, the 12 apostles who knew Jesus after the flesh didn't understand Moses and the prophets even though they felt they kept Moses law. It wasn't until Paul who did NOT know Jesus after the flesh but after the spirit that the light of the law and prophets began to break open. Paul saw allegories where children saw literally. Hagar and her son was an allegory of the Law. CAST OUT Hagar and her son (the law) and see the promise. The letter kills but the spirit makes alive. Paul began to explain the law and Moses in an entirely new light. The law was made not to help one to be righteous, it was made to make sin even MORE sinful. Those who were under the law never really comprehended the purpose of the law. And neither do those today who want to throw out the passages of the O.T. that seem barbaric and unloving.  Under the law, God was an outside entity to be feared. A God of the outside that is sensed through a carnal mind through the five imperfect senses of the body will ALWAYS see God through fear. Our natural minds are programmed biologically to lie. It cannot comprehend God regardless of how the Bible is written. So to the degree that we are "natural" (and believe me Christians including universalists) are far more "natural" in their understanding of God and the Scriptures than they care to see, one cannot truly see or understand God. The Scriptures are spiritual.

Yes, Jesus said, "you have heard it said...." (Moses) but I say to you." Yes, there is a NEW commandment, a NEW law. "As I have loved you, love one another." It's a higher law, the law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus." We are not to serve the Mosaic law, but when we see the law and prophets through the Revelation of Jesus' spirit, the law will serve us in seeing what the pattern was pointing to. The shadow of the law and prophets still has much to teach us. And to thrown it out because the veil of Moses is still over one's eyes is foolishness. We are not to come UNDER the Mosaic law, for it will blind us. But when we look at the Mosaic Law from above we gain wisdom.
The O.T. was written in Hebrew a highly exaggerative language which is very different from English.  Bullinger lists over 200 different types of figures of speech in the Bible with thousands of examples. Unfortunately, we have been taught to read the Bible literally. Big mistake.

Look, I can't take any more time here, I've got to get back to my projects I have to finish today. I'll gladly talk personally to you, Michelle or you pneuma about textual criticism and the dangers of going down the path of throwing out stuff in the bible that doesn't suit your personality, your lifestyle, or education or whatever. I know where that mentality leads and I don't think it's helpful or healthy. We purposely do not allow threads on this board on that discussion on the topic of textual criticism because I know the food fights that ensue. I really do understand those who feel they have a right and obligation to throw out the parts of the bible they do not like, I've read their posts, I've spend a lot of time dialoging with them, I've read many books supporting the idea of relegating parts of the O.T. to myths and superstitions but believe they are wrong because God has given me a lot of light on verses that used to choke me in the past that now make a lot of sense to me.

God has a plan, a blueprint. It's hidden in the Bible. For those who can read God's language of symbols, the blueprint makes perfect sense. A blueprint usually has many pages to it each page dealing with a different aspect of a house. One page may be plumbing, one electrical, one walls, one for the first floor, one for the second, one for the foundation. Each one has language and symbols for that page that a technician familiar with that trade can understand. Just because someone cannot understand the symbols and diagrams on a particular page (or a particular covenant) that deals with electricity doesn't give them the right to throw out that page. THAT is what is being proposed by many who post on some universalist discussion boards. Because they read carnally and are wise in their own eyes, they throw out pages of God's precious blueprint and encourage babes in Christ to do the same. This is WRONG. And that kind of teaching will not be tolerated here at Tentmaker because it is harmful. These discussion boards are not set up to discuss anything and everything. It's not set up to be a chit-chat site. It's purpose is to help people understand that Jesus will save all mankind and that the Bible teaches that. The focus on this discussion board is universal salvation through Jesus Christ. It is biblical. That's it. We don't deal with thousands of other subjects some of which cause BIG food fights. Textual Criticism is one of those big food fight topics.

I want you to know, I've been to the skeptics, atheist, secular humanist pages that feature the kind of verses you presented in your list. I've engaged them in conversation. I know their mind. I was an atheist for many years. They cannot understand where I am coming from because they do not have the Holy Spirit. The Bible is foolishness to them, Old AND New Testament. I understand that. But there is something inside of me that is bigger than me, bigger than my understanding, bigger than all the doubts and fears of this realm. It is bigger than my understanding or lack of understanding of the Bible. Do not throw out what you do not understand. Cry out for understanding. The Spirit of Truth sent by Jesus to give you what belongs to Jesus and to yourself, will give understanding in due season. Patience has its virtue, but children, whether in the natural or spirit lack it.

I am writing this, not knowing whether you have been "born from above," or baptized in His Spirit. Without this probably even what I've written will not make sense. "You must be born from above. That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit." "My words are Spirit and truth." If one does not have  "ears to hear" then the bible and everything I've said is foolishness.

Well, like I said, Michelle and Pneuma, I'll gladly try to help with understanding this subject. But from past experience, it is not helpful from those who come to this board for help to open up a discussion on this topic here. It will draw people with an agenda and it will detract from the main purpose of this discussion forum. Thanks, peace and love. Gary Amirault, the one responsible before God for what goes on here.

[jabcat]

Gary has asked both Scott (pneuma) and Michelle to speak with him personally.  His desire is to minister, be of help.

Amen.

[marie glen]

:help: :help: :help:

When it comes to my walk with the Lord, something always get in the way. I have been physically and sexually abused as a kid and I bore a grudge against God for years because He didn't protect me and stopped my abusers, but I forgave Him. I'm still not sure why. What I do know is, that grudge was only hurting me and I had to let it go. And when you only have a sister that you rarely see and a mother who doesn't understand you, you crave love like a drug-addict crave cocain. But something always hinder my walk with the Lord. Why didn't He rescue me from the people who hurt me when I was a kid, when I was crying out to Him, begging for His help? Why did He ignore me and let those people hurt me, including my own family? Why was I only saved and born again at age 28? Why didn't He do it years ago? I have forgiven Him for that, but the questions still remain unanswered. Fundies keep telling me that I have no right to question God, but since I've been a victim for so many years and suffered that much, don't I deserve an explanation? As far as I'm concerned, I was only a kid and I didn't do anything to deserve beatings and mollestation. And something that is a major hindrance in my walk with the Lord is the Old Testament. That is something I try to avoid thinking about as much as possible. I didn't read much of the OT, just a few passages here and there. I'm still not done reading the NT. But I try to avoid thinking about the OT as much as possible. I just mentally back-file it, like some Fundies do with "eternal torment". So, in some way, I understand them. But the worst thing is, I'm not good at mental back-filling. In some cases, the more you try to avoid thinking about something, the more you think about it. And it's killing me. It's killing me because I cannot fully enjoy my relationship with God, I cannot rest in Him, in His love and it gets in the way of our relationship. It's putting distance between me and Him. Because I can hardly love Him when I read stuff like that...

I'm sure you've had lots of great answers already, but I couldn't not answer. And it might be a long post cause I feel a whole pile of words like a pile on top of my head waiting... I've been through the same like these as you have with a few other things thrown in and I needed deep healing along with weeping, I think it was a concurrent thing. I had many of the same questions you have. I was very blessed to be a stay at home mom and had a lot of time for a few years to overcome depresson, to really pray and study, seek truth and wait upon the Lord for all these things. Some of the things I learned just knocked my socks off, and put me in a very solid place. You know, God isn't responsible for the bad. I know you know that.. Those things about the Old Testament, I want to get into that too, but first I think it's good to always know that every fear, every negative is a lying spirit, or spirits. I'm serious, and just relearned this myself, been having troubles with the negatives running through my head (at my head) as I'm going thru, don't say it out loud, menopause. I am not a happy camper lately, but the Good Lord is reminding me of all the strengths which are in the Truth.

God is life, itself, the life force, breath and spark of life, who, or what else could be? "In the beginning - God." And He is also Perfection. Otherwise, He Himself would also fade as all other things do.

About the human story/experience, mankind as a whole: He could see all things from the beginning.. the end(s) of every possibility. (He knew how every possibility would end and result.) He has done all things in order to bring about the very best thing/reality possible. One thing He did was He chose to endow thinking ability. Now this is a real Pandora's Box, for with thinking ability, comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices. Yet, if God is Life and Perfection, as soon as someone chooses any little thing other than what God chooses, they begin that journey away from Perfection. (Which is the opposite of life!) When He endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilites 'came to be'. (But what was His other choice? No rational creatures ever anywhere..?)

Ever since then, all have suffered, some horribly. But God, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences aLL sufferings which ever occur. Why(?) would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not making robots, or an ant farm, but the best, a family, and an eternally un-breakable paradise. Unbreakable, because deply etched upon every heart, mind, and psyche, will be the full understanding of good from evil / life from death. (Life from death.)

This whole thing, human history, is an unavoidable journey/lesson, if there's to be thinking ability that is.

Why did God wait so long before creating the universe and man and woman, only creating them not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred, but had matured into hidden trickery and sedition? Didn't He know what would happen? Of course He did! (And I say waited long, because surely when there was 'only' the Father (His Spirit/Presence) the Son and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to go astray about... so likely took a while. He did it just that way so we all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson together.. rather than one now.. another later.. and so on.. and so on.. virtually taking for ever..

If God interfered with 'free-will' (the ability to choose) it wouldn't be 'free will'! And it wouldn't work! The 'end' result would not be the same.

You and I, so very thankfully, have been chosen, through no goodness or wisdom on our part, to be part of that Oh so Glorious 1st Resurrection. Many others will be part of the not as joyous 2nd Resurrection (though I'm sure it catches up). They will have an agelasting time "away from the Presence of the Lord and away from the glory of His power" - 2 Thess 1:9, during that long 'day' of the examination of all things, all human history, etc, when "all the books will be opened" and "nothing will be left uncovered that is hidden". [side note: It's only after all this, that they will hear the notorious words "those not believing will go to the second death". By time all that, who's not going to "believe"?]

Revelation 21:5 - "Behold I make aLL things new."

Some of the things you wrote about the Old Testament are not true, others are partly true. If by pediphylia, you meant how the first children of Adam and Eve had to marry one another, it wasn't incest/dangerous then because the DNA threads/possibilites had not been separated and narrowed down.. Adam and Eve lived very long lives and likely birthed an outrageous amount of children! I'm sure Leviticus 18 expressly forbids pediphylia! Lots daughters produced with Lot. Their choice. Not God's. Not even Lot's. They thought Lot's line would die out.

Some Old Testament laws though seeming narrow to us, were actually meant for women's protection. And, what God said to men was "don't multiply wives". No where did He tell them to have more than one wife. Men did that. Also, His Laws were only for Israel! So one tiny spot on earth would be somewhat prepared for Jesus.. rather than His coming in the midst of tree worshipers or womething. And He had to be strict, so because they've as a nation suffered likely most, they will be also eternally blessed in some ways, one being they birthed the redeemer. Also the Okld Testament law is an example of how things, ultimately, really are, on the large forever scale. Since God is Life and also Perfection, all imperfection is then opposite of Life. That's just the way it is. And it can't be any other way. But God has provided the cure for aLL things. And aLL things will be cured. Because God IS perfect. Therefore nothing else is possible. If I disagree with God about something I'm sure I will be proven wrong and will change my mind. Just as if I'm seeing something not quite right, I will one day.

Jesus. "Is the exact representation of His" God's "character" and essence/being.

One Old Testament law said if a man raped a woman in the field he had to marry her. Sounds bad to us, but I bet it prevented almost all rapes! And it's not like a man and woman hung out alone like they do nowadays. God greatly complimented woman when He made that first promise of a rescuer, that He would be "born of a woman". And Mary birthed Jesus. He made Eve out of Adams' side, not foot, and made Adam wait for Eve, til Adam said "finally!" When the apostle Paul wrote that women should not teach, etc, in that day and place, if all of a sudden women would have stood up and begun to speak and teach there would be so much uproar, I'm thinking the gospel/good news would have been shipwrecked! After a while, if you notice, there were prominent women in the church, some were teachers (Priscilla and the seven daughters of ?can't remember who right now).

Anyone caught in adultery or fornication were stoned, not just women. You see God couldn't let everything run amok in tiny Israel because they were to birth the savior/rescuer of all mankind from non-life, the opposite of Perfection/God/Life. Whether Israel always stoned both is another thing, as in the day of Jesus when they brought only the woman. Jesus talked to women, treated them as equals, Unheard of in that day and place. Showed Himself as resurrected to a woman first.

When Lot offered his daughters to the gay mob, I'm thinking  he knew that never in a koon's age would they take him up on it.. Anyway, God didn't do it, Lot did. God's purpose in Israel wasn't to say, here, see these my perfect people. Yes God had Israel make war and destroy the nations (Canaan) that were in the "promised land" because they were butchers who were deeply into the practice of child and human sacrifice.

So yes, God has interfered two or three times, lest it all (mankind) end too soon, and nothing be proven (like when He scattered them at Babel)..  And also in order to provide the rescue (from death and its cause imperfection). Since God His self opened the Pandora's Box by endowing thinking ability, He built the rescue into all things from the beginning ("from the foundation of the world" and also He being responsible is therefor "the savior of all men" male and female! 1tim 4:10).

About the seals, and the Book of Revelation, it's all consequences. It all comes from the choices made since before Cain slew Abel.. Thermo-nuclear fire occurs, still the running of free will.. the seals, trumpets, bowls, all things in those consequences.. John wrote as he understood what he saw.. helicopters as locusts.. lions as tanks..

I guess I've come to realize that it's not how could I have suffered, for now I know all have suffered, some far worse than me, in war, torture, genocide, etc, and God suffers it all. If He prevented my suffering He's have to prevent everyone's wpouldn't He? ..but that would be the same as allowing imperfection vitually for ever, thus suffering, unhappiness, disatisfaction for ever. I guess the question is, how could I be alive? How can there be life? what a miracle. MG. And how can I be saved so that I was able to happily marry and raise ok kids, a miracle, believe me. And how is it possible I am part of that glorious 1st resurrection. And one day there will be perfection, where the "wolf will dwell with the lamb and the lion will" (once more) "eat straw like the ox, and the bear will be seen grazing with the cow" and each one "will abide under their own vine" and fruit tree "and no one will bother them", "and a little child shall lead them". It's the dark spirits that accuse God. And like the psalmist wrote "depart from me all workers of iniquity" - or how about this "depart from me all lying spirits!" I don't suppose I've happened upon every answer, but I'm happy with what I do understand and if I have another question, I guess I'll find out later. Some of the other things you wrote are not in the Old Testament either. But they are popular and repeated these days. I know God has done all things in order to bring about the most perfect of all 'end' results. [Because He is Perfect, nothing else is possible.]
sorry for this long post, if anyone read this far! I can be a wee bit long winded some times. Please bear with me if it didn't help you it was good for me!
- P.S. - there's only one way to have an uN-breakable paradise. And this is it, to let 'free-will' thus suffering (learning life from death, good from evil) run its course..

[micah7:9]

Michelle, do you love the Lord? Do you have a desire to see and understand how He works in our world? The answers we desire do not always, if fact hardly ever, fall into what we want or expect, certainly opposite of what we want. This is a very deep, very deep statement..... stop and know that He loves you, even with all the abuse, He has a reason that is far from anything we as human beings can come close to phanthom with our reasoning.
But I know this, the truth that He has begun to work with you is enough to bring you hours, if not days of shout and holler with smile and song, dance and praise to the King.
We, humans think negative of all the things that happen to us and others we know and care about, thats our way, we cant help it, its natural........ UNTIL HE moves in our lives as He has done in yours. The first thing I understand for us as new creatures, is to FORGIVE .....FORGIVE those that have hurt us. Thats your hurtle now, as long as you carry that hate and unforgiveness He will not, He cannot begin to show you THE PATH.

Luk 23:34 Now Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they are not aware what they are doing.Now dividing His garments, they cast the lot."

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Michelle]

:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

:2thumbs: Woah! Thank you so much for that! It just make so much sense! Woah! This is so exciting! I have such a passion for studying the scriptures that I spend a lot of time doing just that. And to think that for most people, the most thrilling thing is a roller-coaster ride. :rolllol: Let them have their roller-coaster ride. I prefer studying the deeper meanings of the scriptures. Now, THAT is exciting!

:Urock:

[Michelle]

"WHEN WE SEE THE lord SLAUGHTER man women and child ,they are false Doctrines which need to be destroyed just as DEATH itself does- false = LIARS-
hence we see the False prohetess and HER children[ Children are those who perpetuate either False or TRUE doctrines,] which in this case are False."

So it was just symbolical, metaphorical murder? Is that what you're saying?

[Michelle]

Michelle, as to your friend saying the KJV is the inerrent word of God, ask him which version?  You probably won't get anywhere because KJV-only types are highly indoctrinated.  I've had a lot of experience with them, and you want to talk about a cult mentality, yikes.  But if you do want some ammo theres plenty out there.  One is that it has been revised multiple times.  Thus the question which version is inerrant.  Really it gets down to manuscripts.  I believe the translator of the KJV only had a couple, which have been shown to be quite wrong with all the manuscript evidence we have now, like from the dead sea scrolls. 

How is it inerrant if it has to be revised???  If he's a 1611 KJV only guy then good luck :)

Yes. It has been revised multiple times. And it has many mistranslated words. Like Aion/olam mistranslated "everlasting". End of an/the age, mistranslated end of the "world". And four different words translated "hell"; Hades (the grave), death, Gehenna and the pit. And so many contradictions due to mistranslations. Most things said to be "everlasting" in the KJV end up being destroyed or replaced. The old Covenant (law), the Aaronic priesthood, the mountains, Jonah was supposed to be stuck in "hell" (belly of the fish) forever (he was only in that place for three days), etc. Not to mention the preface to the reader (1611 KJV), which was conveniently removed. It can be found on the Internet. Preface in which the translators themselves say that even the 1611 KJV is NOT perfect and without error. But most KJV-only people ignore that fact and keep pretending that the 1611 KJV is the innerant Word of God. My friend is a KJV-only type and he is highly endoctrinated. He is a 1611 KJV-only type and it just seems that no matter what I say, I'm a heretic. In the last two weeks, I sent him countless TM articles that he didn't read. He simply refuse to search and study these things for himself. He recently read a few TM articles and told me to end any relationship with TM because "they are lying about the KJV". He said that the KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus and not the Latin Vulgate. I told him about the Jerome conspiracy, but I'm speaking to a wall. But even though the 1611 KJV is NOT perfect and without error, and even though it started the whole E.T doctrine, that's the Bible I prefer because most Bibles that do not have the concept of "everlasting" punishment in them seem to be even more corrupt:

- Wesley's NT: Wesley is a Methodist apostate
- Young's Literal Translation: (All thing were made "THROUGH" Him, instead of "BY" Him. Direct attack on Christ's deity. Denying that Jesus is God in the flesh. Yeah, I'm a Trinitarian.)
- World English Bible: Same thing.
- Weymouth's NT: Same thing. Also, the resultant Greek text has something to do with Wescott & Hort. Those two are occultists...
- The people's New Covenant (not a real Bible, bunch of comments, explanations, etc.)
- Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Catholic Bible, manuscrit from the VATICAN. Which means Christianized pagan doctrines/idolatry (Mary/angels/saints and Sun day worship) and the VATICAN is the whore of Baylon (they wear purple and scarlet.)
- Green's Literal Translation: They replaced "servant" with "slave". Just like in most modern versions. "Slaves" of Christ...:hysteric: Some people just don't get it. And don't give me a speech on the Greek word "doulos", I don't want to hear it. Jesus doesn't view me as a slave...
- Concordant Literal Translation (The Word was TOWARDS God instead of "WITH" God, calls the Word made flesh (Jesus Christ) a "IT" (instead of "Him".) A direct attack on Christ's deity.)
- Ferrar Fenton's Holy Bible: based on the text of Wescott & Hort (two occultists). Also, according to bible-researcher.com it contains many amateurish errors.)
- The New Testament, A translation (greber): (Holy spirits (plural). THAT is a true heresy.)
- Rotherham Emphasized Bible: (based on the text of Wescott & Hort (two occultists).

Please, don't think that I am judging anyone here. It's a matter of opinion. I don't feel comfortable with Bibles that have anything to do with Wescott & Hort and Bibles that attack Christ's deity. Also, many modern versions are deeply corrupt as well (NKJV, NIV, NASB, RSV, etc). They attack the Virgin birth, the blood atonement, Christ's deity, the bodily resurrection, the second coming and turn the Lord's prayer into a prayer to Satan (NIV). The NIV is the worst and most corrupt Bible. In Isaiah something, it calls Satan the morning start instead of the son of the morning. They make Jesus and Satan out to be one and the same. And the publishing house for the NIV, Rupert Murdock is in charge and they own the rights to the satanic Bible and a book entitled: "The joy of gay sex". The NIV is a total perversion. Also, all modern versions have countless omissions in them and I'm not only talking about corrections. I'm talking about removing important stuff like one of the commandement (false witness), removing the word "worship" countless times (denying Jesus worship), removing the words "Christ" and "Lord" countless times, "the earth is the Lord's", "Get thee behind me, Satan", the passages about fasting to get rid of some stubborn demons and many other such important things. :hysteric: I study many Bibles, but I feel more comfortable with the 1611 KJV, even though it has some mistranslated words, like "everlasting" and "world" instead of age. No english translation is perfect and without error and pretty much all english translations are corrupt. I am a Christian Universalist through and through, but I just feel more comfortable with the 1611 KJV. And I was using that Bible when God saved me. I think it's no coincidence that God had my friend sent me that Bible. God provided me with a Bible when I couldn't afford one, but He was also trying to show me something. And that Bible was the first step that led me to Christian Universalism. The first step in my spiritual journey, in my walk with the Lord that led me to the truth of Universal Salvation. I think God can use just about any Bible no matter how corrupt to teach something to a person. God always use evil to bring good. But I feel more comfortable with the Bible I started with.

:sweat: Please, don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, people... 

[Michelle]

You aren't. Please, enlighten me. And if you know of any material about serious mistranslations pertaining to the O.T, please send it to me

There are mistranslations. the greatest being HELL and eternal - along with many minor ones by comparrison-

Blessings :icon_flower:

I already know that, Taffy. But that's pertaining to the NT. And that's what most of the TM articles are about. I sure hope someone will add some O.T articles to the TM material someday. It's just as important as the whole E.T doctrine thing. Many people became atheists because they couldn't cope with the horrors of the O.T. But it seems that the Lord won't let me give up on Him so easily. And I don't think I want that myself. If God cannot be trusted and counted on, then no one else can be. I will keep searching until I find answers. That's what He wants me to do. I can feel it. It's just another spiritual quest. And for so many years, I have been tormented, depressed, living in fear and lonely. Ever since He revealed the truth of UR to me, my life has completely changed. It's not always sunshine and daisies, but I now know what pure, perfect love is, peace that passes all understanding, joy and real happiness. I have been betrayed and hurt by many so-called friends and I have never been loved. I didn't even know what love was until Jesus moved in and started healing me and showered me with pure, perfect love. And my Fundamentalist friend would have me believe that I'm being deceived by Satan or a false Christ. I began healing and became a much better person and he would have me believed that UR is a "heresy". God has moved mightily in my life and I have manifest way more fruit of the Holy Spirit ever since I became a Christian Universalist. Never in my entire life have I experienced such love, peace, joy and healing. And I now know what happiness is. Believe me when I tell you that I had it rough. I have been beaten up, mollested, ridiculized, humiliated, rejected and treated like a freak, mostly because I was born with a disability and because I was fragile. Lots of people have walked all over me, taken advantage of me and many so-called friends have betrayed me and hurt me. I don't exactly know why I was put through all this, but Jesus taught me to see the big picture...

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

"Of the same lump. There is nothing in the basic material of the two vessels to make one different from the other—the difference lies in the design of the potter. There is no reason within themselves why one should be a lamb and the other a tiger. It is not the lamb's fault or the tiger's fault that they were made thus. Out of the same lump of clay, which God turned into humanity, He can produce in the same generation a Cain and an Abel—a Cain who is self-centered and an Abel who is full of faith—a Cain who is a murderer and an Abel who is a servant of God. Out of the same lump, out of the same kneading, He can produce a self-righteous Pharisee and a self-abnegating Publican."

Same thing for my Fundamentalist friend, Thomas. It's not his fault he was made thus. He didn't choose to be a self-righteous Pharisee. But I know God is eventually going to open his eyes to the truth of UR. Maybe not in this life, but death doesn't stop Jesus. Otherwise, He wouldn't have the keys to Hades and death and those keys would be completely useless. And I know He will take good care of my friend. It's all about the big picture. Gary said something about that once. He said, how am I supposed to love my enemies unless I actually have enemies to love? When your enemy happen to be your friend, then surely God is trying to teach you an important lesson. And when I'm reunited with my friend in heaven, everything will make perfect sense to the both of us. And in heaven, nothing will ever be able to hinder or destroy our friendship again. No matter how bad and hopeless circumstances seem to be, we should never trust them. We should never trust circumstances, but God alone...

 

[Michelle]

:icon_flower:
Michelle
have you ever heard of the acronym PARDES?

HERES A HELPFUL LINK-which may explain why theres more behind the original Text- Ie scrpture being dimentional
http://members.cox.net/8thday/4levels.html

That looks like a very cool site.

But I notice that Jews say you can't go into the heights until the age of 40.  :winkgrin:

What do they know, huh? I say that's a grace from God, just like salvation. It's not from man. One of these days, God might prove them wrong. :rolllol:

[Michelle]

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

[micah7:9]

Michelle, what is it you really are looking for? It seems to me that you pretty much know all about everything that anyone says, so what is it you are seeking? Peace comes from forgiveness, and accepting that being a follower of Jesus Christ will bring calalmities and a great deal learning things that are quite obstuse to what we have layed out in our minds. If the God of the old testament slaughtered and killed in a way that you cannot phanthom, does that make God bad or evil? Do you not believe that God has a purpose and reason for what you may call atrocities? He does nothing that does not have a purpose in His plan. You may not see it, or understand it, while you cuddle in your natural mind, with your understanding of hate and love, but
Isa 55:8 For not as My devices are your devices, and not as your ways are My ways,averring is Yahweh."
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are loftier than the earth, so are My ways loftier than your ways, and my devices than your devices."
We, all who walk and accept the truths of the Father are learning that the thoughts and compasions of our natural mind are quite useless in our regeneration and growth in the Spirit. To repent, as DL Moody said is like the military command of "about face," to turn right about and face the opposite direction and that most assuredly means to think different than we had.
This is part of growing up, maturing in the Lord, forsaking our knowledge and common sense. As you have quoted GOD IS LOVE, He loves what He created even amongest all the things we find outside of our range of figuring.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[micah7:9]

I feel bad for even saying that, because it seems some have much harder lives than others - although I believe we all have trials and tests.  I just think that's one of the ways we need to look at it, that it's helpful and puts things more in perspective, don't you?  All in all, God gives us what we need to accomplish His purpose.

:icon_flower:
althou Pharaoh is a Type of Israel\Flesh\Carnality , he was used to SHEW HIS POWER , The TRUE power of GOD is CHRIST

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Why doesn't the Bible say that Pharaoh, Judas and the others were saved in the "end"?

He does 1Ti 2:4  who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

[jabcat]

...............Peace comes from forgiveness, and accepting that being a follower of Jesus Christ will bring calalmities and a great deal learning things that are quite obstuse to what we have layed out in our minds. If the God of the old testament slaughtered and killed in a way that you cannot phanthom, does that make God bad or evil? Do you not believe that God has a purpose and reason for what you may call atrocities? He does nothing that does not have a purpose in His plan. You may not see it, or understand it, while you cuddle in your natural mind, with your understanding of hate and love, but
Isa 55:8 For not as My devices are your devices, and not as your ways are My ways,averring is Yahweh."
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are loftier than the earth, so are My ways loftier than your ways, and my devices than your devices."
We, all who walk and accept the truths of the Father are learning that the thoughts and compasions of our natural mind are quite useless in our regeneration and growth in the Spirit. To repent, as DL Moody said is like the military command of "about face," to turn right about and face the opposite direction and that most assuredly means to think different than we had.
This is part of growing up, maturing in the Lord, forsaking our knowledge and common sense. As you have quoted GOD IS LOVE, He loves what He created even amongest all the things we find outside of our range of figuring.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

You may have intended this for Michelle, but thank you for this good and helpful (to me) word, brother micah.  I almost constantly find that I need to humble myself before Him, submit to His will and ways.  Thank you and blessings.

[Michelle]

Now you asked concerning some of the things you have read in the bible concerning the OT.

Things such as God commanding the killings of innocent men, women and children.

Well there are 3 outlooks on this; one is abhorrent, the other 2 are most probable.

1 God actually commanded people to do these things (this is the abhorrent one)
2 People misunderstood what God was actually saying and literally did what He was saying when He was speaking spiritually.
3 The lying pen of the scribes added to the scriptures saying God said such and such when God never said anything of the kind.

We read is scripture

All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.  23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them

We also read

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Michelle What people believe about God is what they write about Him, it does not make what they believe and write true. Only that which Jesus states about God is true and right, all others write under a vail of ignorance.

And the reason people see our kind loving Father in a bad light is because people still see God as portrayed though the eyes of ignorant, unenlightened men who wrote under a veil of darkness and did not know the Father. And because people insist on listening to the lying pen of the scribes instead of listening to what Jesus says of the Father.

On the mount of transfiguration Peter, James and John wanted to build 3 tabernacles. One for Moses, one for Elijah and one for Jesus. God said not so, He (speaking of Jesus) is my beloved son HEAR HIM. Michelle people are still listening to Moses and Elijah, men who were under the vail of ignorance and did not really know the Father.

Yes they knew the Father but did not fully know the Father, only Jesus and those He revealed the Father to know and understand the Father.

So did God really command people to kill innocent women and children as recorded in the OT? (this is the view held by most)

Or

Did Moses misunderstand what God was saying and did literally, what God meant spiritually?

Example: God commanded Moses to kill all his enemies, innocent men, women and children.
Now there are two ways one can kill their enemies, one by literally killing them; the other by making their enemies their friends thereby in effect killing their enemies.
Moses, misunderstanding God literally killed his enemies, thinking to do God a service, when God all along only meant for Moses to make his enemies his friends thereby killing his enemies.

Or

Did the lying pen of the scribes add to the scriptures and state God commanded the killings after the fact to justify themselves in killing men , women and children.

What MUST always be taken into account Michelle is God commanded THOU SHALT NOT KILL, He would not then change His mind and command killing contrary to His own command. God is steadfast and all He commands is steadfast. So we must learn to listen to HIM, Jesus Christ and those Christ revealed the Father too and STOP listening to those who think they know God.

Michelle, there are tares among the wheat of God's word written in the bibles, and as we listen to Christ the vail of ignorance is lifted and the tares are removed and we have the pure undefiled word of God written in the bible.

Hope this was of some help to you Michelle, as I know the place you are in as I have been there also.
God bless

:icon_flower: Hey, Pneuma. I just read your two posts and it all makes perfect sense! I had "The Bible is the innerant Word of God and it must be taken literally" rammed down my throat by so many Fundamentalists, including my friend. Father, forgive him for he not knows what he does and please, bless him. There are so many things to study, I wish I had the ability to read and memorize many things at once. There are so many things that I don't know of. And I have been endoctrinated and brainwashed for so many years. God really made some miraculous changes in me, but there are many things that I must learn. Please, pray for me and ask God to show me my erronous beliefs that are the result of so many years of endoctrination and brainwashing. God bless you.

[micah7:9]

Thank you my friend, it was also a help to me. Bro. Prinzing once said that most times when he ministered and taught, he was truly minstering to himself. I find that to be a very true lesson. I am pleased the Lord has blessed you as well as me.