Revelation 21:8 Unbelieving, LOF, Second Death

[jabcat]

Revelation 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[Aleax]

A view: the second death is death of man's sinful nature, which everyone must go through. It is possible to go through it now here in the Present Evil Aeon by being born again and allowing Holy Spirit Fire to burn away one's sinful nature. However, most people will not be born again during the current age. They must be purified by the LOF fire.

[marie glen]

The Lake of Fire is the only way to cleanse away that hardest of all sins, the absolute stubbornness of refusing, after all is said and done, to not "believe". I say after all is said and done, because if we read about the Lake of Fire and how it is the result of not being "in the Book of Life". If one is not in this book (Life) they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")

We find this verse, however, AFTER the second resurrection which is of course, the resurrection of all those not saved whether having heard and rejected, or having never heard.

What does it mean to have one's name "written in the book of life"? If our name is written in the book of life now, why is it? Because we "believe".

Jesus told the pharisees "if you do not repent, you will die in your sins". They would be part of the second resurrection rather than the first. The second resurrection is far inferior to the first.

Imagine being resurrected. You never believed, perhaps you never even heard. But now you have been resurrected and you are part of a day when "all the books are opened" and "not one thing remains hidden" and then at the conclusion of all that, you hear the words "those whose names cannot be found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire". Looking around at all in the crowd who has experienced this, we can wonder, who after all this doesn't "believe"? Perhaps they have remained a part of that crowd which hates God and having by habit, reacted always to God's overtures with hatred, the heart has become so hard nothing, no amount of logic, can break through and cause them to believe and be united with God. For most, the graphic image and happening of Jesus on the cross (crucified, bleeding) is a strong enough image to pierce every psyche.. except perhaps one or two or a handful.. These ones can only find repentance in the lake of fire. (I'm not saying however, that anyone will actually end up there! "Every Knee shall bow..")

[whyiloveitaly.com]

When my grandpa told me that when Jesus died, He went to preach to the "souls in prison," my first thought was: "what a REVIVAL that must have been!!"  :laughing7:

Blessings!
brian

[thinktank]

The Lake of Fire is the only way to cleanse away that hardest of all sins, the absolute stubbornness of refusing, after all is said and done, to not "believe". I say after all is said and done, because if we read about the Lake of Fire and how it is the result of not being "in the Book of Life". If one is not in this book (Life) they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")

We find this verse, however, AFTER the second resurrection which is of course, the resurrection of all those not saved whether having heard and rejected, or having never heard.

What does it mean to have one's name "written in the book of life"? If our name is written in the book of life now, why is it? Because we "believe".

Jesus told the pharisees "if you do not repent, you will die in your sins". They would be part of the second resurrection rather than the first. The second resurrection is far inferior to the first.

Imagine being resurrected. You never believed, perhaps you never even heard. But now you have been resurrected and you are part of a day when "all the books are opened" and "not one thing remains hidden" and then at the conclusion of all that, you hear the words "those whose names cannot be found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire". Looking around at all in the crowd who has experienced this, we can wonder, who after all this doesn't "believe"? Perhaps they have remained a part of that crowd which hates God and having by habit, reacted always to God's overtures with hatred, the heart has become so hard nothing, no amount of logic, can break through and cause them to believe and be united with God. For most, the graphic image and happening of Jesus on the cross (crucified, bleeding) is a strong enough image to pierce every psyche.. except perhaps one or two or a handful.. These ones can only find repentance in the lake of fire. (I'm not saying however, that anyone will actually end up there! "Every Knee shall bow..")

Some good thoughts.

[Nathan]

I agree, words were washing.  It's great to just receive a word without trying to counter it or redirect.  That was a great word and I really felt refreshed by it.

[nesto]

WHat exactly will take place in the lake of fire? Some are saying that the born again (elect?) that don't experience the lake of fire "allowed" the holy spirit to burn away their sinful nature.....

Is there consensus here on how involved man's will is in dying to the sinful nature?

Isn't being born again in this age a 100 percent given that the sin is NO LONGER Imputed to that person?

[shawn]

WHat exactly will take place in the lake of fire? Some are saying that the born again (elect?) that don't experience the lake of fire "allowed" the holy spirit to burn away their sinful nature.....

Is there consensus here on how involved man's will is in dying to the sinful nature?

Isn't being born again in this age a 100 percent given that the sin is NO LONGER Imputed to that person?

I personally think what the LoF will consist of is speculation.  But, it makes sense to me that it's a remedial punishment...corrective in nature.  Will that mean that those outside of the gates are in the LoF?  Is it a place where God lets sin run it's course.  Is it a long day where someone is exposed to all their sins and the harm they caused in the presence of God?  I have no idea.  I just know I don't want any part of it.

As for your last question, are you asking how a Christian would have the rest of his carnal nature burned out of him after death?  Are you concerned that Christians will have to take part in the second death?

[jabcat]

I agree Shawn.  I think it's something we very much see through a glass darkly on, while still, we have over a hundred CLEAR promises in the Word that all will be renewed/learn righteousness (I'm about 2/3 of the way through with that list, then I'd like to post it all at once for future reference/use).

My through-the-glass-darkly view is that somehow, God is the Fire, and He sets a spiritual condition that spiritually burns - through the Holy Spirit's conviction of the conscience - and brings one to repentance and acceptance/belief;  the bowing and confessing every knee and tongue will do.  I describe it as, none of us have ever been in God's direct presence.  In this mortal flesh, we would die.  When that veil is removed and any of us are in His direct presence - the Fire of God - we will melt and fall prostrate - overcome with all His majesty - "melting" away until all that's left is purity.  Thus I think it's very true, that no sin can exist in His (direct) Presence.   :2c:

[Nathan]

How about a different approach?  How about asking ourselves "What is true forgiveness?"  Does Scripture not say that our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west???  IF that's the case, then why on earth would we think that there still needs to be some retribution take place to punish us for that which has already been forgiven???  "Well, it's because we need to ask for that forgivness . . ."  Really?  You mean to say that if someone offends you, you don't have to forgive them unless they come to you and admit they offended you and ask for you to forgive them?  What is "turn the other cheek" all about if it's not about immediate forgiveness WITHOUT CONDITION OR ENGAGEMENT OF THE OTHER PARTY INVOLVED.

We still think bad people are going to go through some torture on the other side of some sort?  Is that how forgiveness works?  I know, my mind still can't grasp the enormity of God's forgiveness but in that cloudbank of uncomprehension, I hear the continual and reassuring call to just keep advancing in the kingdom and God will do the rest. 

So, those who's names are not in the book of life (Christ) are cast into the lake of fire (God the Father) where they become transformed . . .are we who "have" turned to Christ now in God?  Wouldn't that then also mean that we who have turned our mortality in for his immortality live, and move . . .and have our being IN the LAKE OF FIRE???  I don't want to be cast out of the lake, I want God to teach me how to do the back stroke!!!

[jabcat]

I don't think we're worlds apart on this Nathan.  I'm not saying the condition for repentance is thousands of years, or even years for that matter.   It could be minutes or seconds, IMO.   However, for all to come through Jesus, as He said we must, I just believe there will be some amount of turning from and turning to (repentance) - all ordained and accomplished by God.    :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Okay, how about this . . .is spirit governed by time?

[thinktank]

Tick tock tick tock. But if there is no time, does that mean there is no duration?

But without duration, then nothing would happen, i.e a cleansing would not happen, because nothing passed.

So, if spirit is not governed by time i.e 12 hours pass, but to the person it is the same time, but yet didn't they go through a lengthy examination with the lord? .So there must be in a sense a sense of duration of time.
:2c:

[Nathan]

Our surmizing can only derive from our experiences in this realm.  We can't seem to comprehend living in a "finished work" state where everything is ALREADY completed.  Spending "time" in the cleansing process on the other side is not finished state. 

There is a place in Scripture where Jesus was in the boat with the disciples and they had that huge storm come up . . .Jesus was sleeping in the ship . . .they freak out and wake him up, kind of even a little bewildered that he apparently doesn't care about their survival.  You know the story . . .but what seems to get missed a lot there is what happens with all the excitement is over . . .it says the moment the sea was calm, they were at their destination "immediately".  It wasn't your normal arrival in a boat.  Jesus took them into a time warp . . .he defied the laws of our nature.  He's not confined to time, only the things of this realm are confined and defined by time.  and those of us who have never been in any other realm but this one, can't comprehend what life is like without the limitation of time following them.

That's why faith is so cool to walk in . . .time can't affect that either.

[shawn]

How about a different approach?  How about asking ourselves "What is true forgiveness?"  Does Scripture not say that our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west???  IF that's the case, then why on earth would we think that there still needs to be some retribution take place to punish us for that which has already been forgiven???  "Well, it's because we need to ask for that forgivness . . ."  Really?  You mean to say that if someone offends you, you don't have to forgive them unless they come to you and admit they offended you and ask for you to forgive them?  What is "turn the other cheek" all about if it's not about immediate forgiveness WITHOUT CONDITION OR ENGAGEMENT OF THE OTHER PARTY INVOLVED.

We still think bad people are going to go through some torture on the other side of some sort?  Is that how forgiveness works?  I know, my mind still can't grasp the enormity of God's forgiveness but in that cloudbank of uncomprehension, I hear the continual and reassuring call to just keep advancing in the kingdom and God will do the rest. 

So, those who's names are not in the book of life (Christ) are cast into the lake of fire (God the Father) where they become transformed . . .are we who "have" turned to Christ now in God?  Wouldn't that then also mean that we who have turned our mortality in for his immortality live, and move . . .and have our being IN the LAKE OF FIRE???  I don't want to be cast out of the lake, I want God to teach me how to do the back stroke!!!

You may very well be right about all of this.  Personally, I don't see the LoF as being a punishment.  I see it as a state of being (as Jab has said) in conditions set by God to bring about repentance and purification.  On earth, Christians go through this now.  I believe there will be those who go through this after death.  When we suffer now, is this about payment?  Retribution?  I would suggest not, payment has been made in full...agreed sins east west gone.  We that said, we still experience many of the consequences of sin.  Within those consequences, lessons are learned.  We live in the fire now.  Why should we expect different for those after death?

[Nathan]

Ah, for me, the consequences we speak of are carried out solely in this realm (In THIS world you will have trials and tribulation . . .)  The reason for me why it would be different, even opposite in the spiritual realm is pretty much because the kingdom principles operate on an opposite set of values than what we experience on this side of lfie.

[shawn]

Ah, for me, the consequences we speak of are carried out solely in this realm (In THIS world you will have trials and tribulation . . .)  The reason for me why it would be different, even opposite in the spiritual realm is pretty much because the kingdom principles operate on an opposite set of values than what we experience on this side of lfie.

That may be possible.  So what is the LoF to you?  Is it just an immediate transformation of nonbelievers into believers?  Only believers in this life experience the pain that comes within the sanctification process?

[jabcat]

I believe it's a spiritual condition brought about by being in God's direct presence, which will bring about conviction and repentance.  I do believe that's always painful - in this life or the next age - it just may not take month/years for most to come to that place.  My personal conviction lasted much of one day, a Sunday afternoon where I became so miserable and afraid, I knew there was but one option.

So I believe those reborn in this life have already been visited in conviction by the Holy Spirit (and the ongoing sanctification process, as you say) so we won't be hurt by the Lake of Fire/second death.  I'll almost say I believe the actual Lake of Fire is God - and I think that's at least VERY close.  However, I think of the verse of the Lake of Fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels, so then I think it must be, although extremely connected to the Fire of God (Consuming Fire), a "separate function" (to use a very inadequate term) that emanates from/of God.  I believe it's so closely connected to Him, it's "almost" Him...if that makes any sense at all.  Lake, immersed, totally bathed in...

Again, the glass darkly, and my words don't quite accomplish... :bigGrin:

[redhotmagma]

Jab I'm with you, I look at it like when Isaiah needed the coal on his lips.  His sin was instantly revealed and He knew He needed to purified, and that was in a vision, imagine being in the direct presence.  When I truly was finally opened to how sinful sin is after years of being almost tolerant (can't find the right word, maybe apathetic) to sin, and I put my self into His light, I watched my self walk across a line into a whitehot light, it hurt but not in a bad way at all.  Its being burned with pure love, and your nakedness is being exposed, but His love was warmth like the sun on my nakedness but all the way through my self.  I can't wait to be in His presence wholly, all creation is groaning for it.  For the unbelievers... it hurts so good.

[jabcat]

Amen, beautiful.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

It hurt but not in a bad way . . .hmmm . . .

I'm wondering rather than it being something measured by pain or suffering, what it it's something measured by "positioning".  If we are faithful with a few we will be ruler over many . . .what is the "many"?

[shawn]

It hurt but not in a bad way . . .hmmm . . .

I'm wondering rather than it being something measured by pain or suffering, what it it's something measured by "positioning".  If we are faithful with a few we will be ruler over many . . .what is the "many"?

I suppose that's what I am getting at.  I know it may sound petty but having to go through the sanctification process on earth is not easy nor is it painless.  To say a nonbeliever can live however they wish then just be instantly transformed into perfection doesn't sit right with me.  Maybe it's my own selfishness or limitations but it would be nice to think that there is some afterlife reward for trying to live for Christ.

[redhotmagma]

When I say it hurt but not in a bad way, it still hurt.  It was more shame, and regret, and feeling so inferior and worthless, yet He comforted and says you have worth, you are fearfully and wonderfully made, he clothes us in righteousness.

Over the next few days and weeks, I would have a moment where another layer of His love and perfection was revealed, and another layer of fig leaves were taken off and and my nakedness would be revealed again, but then He would clothe me again.  Each time my shame and guilt was made less and less.

Benefits:

If you are willingly sanctified (christian), it probably doesn't hurt as much, as in those being sanctified directly in His presence (non-christian), surgery vs. gettting an arm lopped off?  Another thought is at the great white throne, if we've already confessed our sin, and accepted the forgiveness, and no longer have shame, when it is read in front of everyone (at least thats my take on it) its not as big of a deal.

Plus we get to rule and reign, but I think we forget about this life.  What is eternal life?  to know the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.  I can't imagine living without Him.

[shawn]

It always makes me smile to see the Lord move.  I was in an AA meeting today and one of the women in there had an "issue" with part of the preamble.  The portion about "we are not saints".  She was visably upset and few of us could really figure out why.  What came to mind to me I spoke.  I said, in my life when I am seeking answers about something that is bothering me the answer is usually much less relevant/important than insight into why it's bothering me in the first place.  As soon as that came out of my mouth I heard in my head, wouldn't it be nice if you took your own advice.

So many times, I give the advice I need.  For me, the way God handles his business in the afterlife should be of little relevance to me.  That is God's business nor does he need my approval.  But, this thought about people living lives anyway they wish then being instantly transformed into perfection has been absolutely eating my lunch.  Why does it bother me so much?  Whatever the process, why would it matter to me?  Why would I want some sort of painful process for nonbelievers?  Ugly questions that reveal much about my walk.  It's hard asking these questions.

I'm not sure I have worked it all out in my head.  But, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive.  If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't.  Ugh.  I have mixed feelings about these sort of internal revelations...these mirrors...seeing my spiritual reflection is not always easy.  Am I really living love?  Or, is my walk more self seeking behavior that I expect to be rewarded?  But, I know if God is bringing it to my attention, he is moving to change it.

I know that I don't deserve eternal life.  I have not done anything worthy of reward.  The "sacrifice" is merely my flesh crying out for validation.  All is grace, and if God wants to pour out his grace in abundance to those who don't believe in a process that is instant and without pain, if there is no additional reward to those who are faithful...is that a game changer for me?  Is that something that will hinder my walk?  Why do I live for Christ?  Is it truly because of love for him?  Or am I dressing selfishness in piety and calling it something spiritual?

[thinktank]

I have those thought to. But I think the biggest challenge for me is the fear that God will somehow change the meaning of the scripture. I.e I thought the lake of fire was going to be painful? it says in the letters in the book of revelation etc.

If this turns out to be the case and I feel as if God has lied to me all my life, I would probably hate/dislike God for months maybe years, possibly one second I guess (Not revenge on adulterer type hatred, but an angry kid type hatred). But since heaven is for eternity and there is a lot of peace up there, whatever injustices I feel God has dealt me and others, I will be able to forgive in time and forget the pain of the past, including the pain of having wrong understanding of scripture. For one I know that certain scriptures do infuriate me, and feel God could have done a much better job and hasn't tried very hard to bring certain truths to the common man and make this world a better place, especially the bad things that the church did in the past could have been avoided if God didn't fool around with words, but only reveals to those who pray all their lives etc, but I guess in heaven, when God says the answer it would seem so simple and a let down, a bit like in the movie star wars when Obiwan Kenobi explained to Luke skywalker that Darth vader was killed from a certain point of view. A bit like the overly wise, smug man who finally reveals simple things after decades of frustration. But just got trust God that he's not a smug, overly wise, thingymebob?, His presence is trustworthy, but his word needs improvement I think, and I think that it is improving, and it seems to be that the word also like us has had to travel through the valley of the shadow of death since it's humble beginings and has had to pass and go through the arms of countless number of evil men's hands who would love to destroy it and change it's message and also to gain a monopoly over it and also to try and explain the meaning of the texts and also go through countless translations, wars, time corruption, and for the scribes to write accurately. So the word has had a pretty rough journey. Imagine it's vast course it has taken, maybe one day in heaven we will be able to sit back and watch a movie of how the word went through countless generations and survived, wars, natural disasters and everything the enemy could throw at it.