Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
A view: the second death is death of man's sinful nature, which everyone must go through. It is possible to go through it now here in the Present Evil Aeon by being born again and allowing Holy Spirit Fire to burn away one's sinful nature. However, most people will not be born again during the current age. They must be purified by the LOF fire.
The Lake of Fire is the only way to cleanse away that hardest of all sins, the absolute stubbornness of refusing, after all is said and done, to not "believe". I say after all is said and done, because if we read about the Lake of Fire and how it is the result of not being "in the Book of Life". If one is not in this book (Life) they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")
We find this verse, however, AFTER the second resurrection which is of course, the resurrection of all those not saved whether having heard and rejected, or having never heard.
What does it mean to have one's name "written in the book of life"? If our name is written in the book of life now, why is it? Because we "believe".
Jesus told the pharisees "if you do not repent, you will die in your sins". They would be part of the second resurrection rather than the first. The second resurrection is far inferior to the first.
Imagine being resurrected. You never believed, perhaps you never even heard. But now you have been resurrected and you are part of a day when "all the books are opened" and "not one thing remains hidden" and then at the conclusion of all that, you hear the words "those whose names cannot be found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire". Looking around at all in the crowd who has experienced this, we can wonder, who after all this doesn't "believe"? Perhaps they have remained a part of that crowd which hates God and having by habit, reacted always to God's overtures with hatred, the heart has become so hard nothing, no amount of logic, can break through and cause them to believe and be united with God. For most, the graphic image and happening of Jesus on the cross (crucified, bleeding) is a strong enough image to pierce every psyche.. except perhaps one or two or a handful.. These ones can only find repentance in the lake of fire. (I'm not saying however, that anyone will actually end up there! "Every Knee shall bow..")
When my grandpa told me that when Jesus died, He went to preach to the "souls in prison," my first thought was: "what a REVIVAL that must have been!!" :laughing7:
Blessings!
brian
Quote from: marie glen on February 14, 2011, 10:32:09 PM
The Lake of Fire is the only way to cleanse away that hardest of all sins, the absolute stubbornness of refusing, after all is said and done, to not "believe". I say after all is said and done, because if we read about the Lake of Fire and how it is the result of not being "in the Book of Life". If one is not in this book (Life) they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.")
We find this verse, however, AFTER the second resurrection which is of course, the resurrection of all those not saved whether having heard and rejected, or having never heard.
What does it mean to have one's name "written in the book of life"? If our name is written in the book of life now, why is it? Because we "believe".
Jesus told the pharisees "if you do not repent, you will die in your sins". They would be part of the second resurrection rather than the first. The second resurrection is far inferior to the first.
Imagine being resurrected. You never believed, perhaps you never even heard. But now you have been resurrected and you are part of a day when "all the books are opened" and "not one thing remains hidden" and then at the conclusion of all that, you hear the words "those whose names cannot be found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire". Looking around at all in the crowd who has experienced this, we can wonder, who after all this doesn't "believe"? Perhaps they have remained a part of that crowd which hates God and having by habit, reacted always to God's overtures with hatred, the heart has become so hard nothing, no amount of logic, can break through and cause them to believe and be united with God. For most, the graphic image and happening of Jesus on the cross (crucified, bleeding) is a strong enough image to pierce every psyche.. except perhaps one or two or a handful.. These ones can only find repentance in the lake of fire. (I'm not saying however, that anyone will actually end up there! "Every Knee shall bow..")
Some good thoughts.
I agree, words were washing. It's great to just receive a word without trying to counter it or redirect. That was a great word and I really felt refreshed by it.
WHat exactly will take place in the lake of fire? Some are saying that the born again (elect?) that don't experience the lake of fire "allowed" the holy spirit to burn away their sinful nature.....
Is there consensus here on how involved man's will is in dying to the sinful nature?
Isn't being born again in this age a 100 percent given that the sin is NO LONGER Imputed to that person?
Quote from: nesto on March 04, 2011, 03:42:34 AM
WHat exactly will take place in the lake of fire? Some are saying that the born again (elect?) that don't experience the lake of fire "allowed" the holy spirit to burn away their sinful nature.....
Is there consensus here on how involved man's will is in dying to the sinful nature?
Isn't being born again in this age a 100 percent given that the sin is NO LONGER Imputed to that person?
I personally think what the LoF will consist of is speculation. But, it makes sense to me that it's a remedial punishment...corrective in nature. Will that mean that those outside of the gates are in the LoF? Is it a place where God lets sin run it's course. Is it a long day where someone is exposed to all their sins and the harm they caused in the presence of God? I have no idea. I just know I don't want any part of it.
As for your last question, are you asking how a Christian would have the rest of his carnal nature burned out of him after death? Are you concerned that Christians will have to take part in the second death?
I agree Shawn. I think it's something we very much see through a glass darkly on, while still, we have over a hundred CLEAR promises in the Word that all will be renewed/learn righteousness (I'm about 2/3 of the way through with that list, then I'd like to post it all at once for future reference/use).
My through-the-glass-darkly view is that somehow, God is the Fire, and He sets a spiritual condition that spiritually burns - through the Holy Spirit's conviction of the conscience - and brings one to repentance and acceptance/belief; the bowing and confessing every knee and tongue will do. I describe it as, none of us have ever been in God's direct presence. In this mortal flesh, we would die. When that veil is removed and any of us are in His direct presence - the Fire of God - we will melt and fall prostrate - overcome with all His majesty - "melting" away until all that's left is purity. Thus I think it's very true, that no sin can exist in His (direct) Presence. :2c:
How about a different approach? How about asking ourselves "What is true forgiveness?" Does Scripture not say that our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west??? IF that's the case, then why on earth would we think that there still needs to be some retribution take place to punish us for that which has already been forgiven??? "Well, it's because we need to ask for that forgivness . . ." Really? You mean to say that if someone offends you, you don't have to forgive them unless they come to you and admit they offended you and ask for you to forgive them? What is "turn the other cheek" all about if it's not about immediate forgiveness WITHOUT CONDITION OR ENGAGEMENT OF THE OTHER PARTY INVOLVED.
We still think bad people are going to go through some torture on the other side of some sort? Is that how forgiveness works? I know, my mind still can't grasp the enormity of God's forgiveness but in that cloudbank of uncomprehension, I hear the continual and reassuring call to just keep advancing in the kingdom and God will do the rest.
So, those who's names are not in the book of life (Christ) are cast into the lake of fire (God the Father) where they become transformed . . .are we who "have" turned to Christ now in God? Wouldn't that then also mean that we who have turned our mortality in for his immortality live, and move . . .and have our being IN the LAKE OF FIRE??? I don't want to be cast out of the lake, I want God to teach me how to do the back stroke!!!
I don't think we're worlds apart on this Nathan. I'm not saying the condition for repentance is thousands of years, or even years for that matter. It could be minutes or seconds, IMO. However, for all to come through Jesus, as He said we must, I just believe there will be some amount of turning from and turning to (repentance) - all ordained and accomplished by God. :thumbsup:
Okay, how about this . . .is spirit governed by time?
Tick tock tick tock. But if there is no time, does that mean there is no duration?
But without duration, then nothing would happen, i.e a cleansing would not happen, because nothing passed.
So, if spirit is not governed by time i.e 12 hours pass, but to the person it is the same time, but yet didn't they go through a lengthy examination with the lord? .So there must be in a sense a sense of duration of time.
:2c:
Our surmizing can only derive from our experiences in this realm. We can't seem to comprehend living in a "finished work" state where everything is ALREADY completed. Spending "time" in the cleansing process on the other side is not finished state.
There is a place in Scripture where Jesus was in the boat with the disciples and they had that huge storm come up . . .Jesus was sleeping in the ship . . .they freak out and wake him up, kind of even a little bewildered that he apparently doesn't care about their survival. You know the story . . .but what seems to get missed a lot there is what happens with all the excitement is over . . .it says the moment the sea was calm, they were at their destination "immediately". It wasn't your normal arrival in a boat. Jesus took them into a time warp . . .he defied the laws of our nature. He's not confined to time, only the things of this realm are confined and defined by time. and those of us who have never been in any other realm but this one, can't comprehend what life is like without the limitation of time following them.
That's why faith is so cool to walk in . . .time can't affect that either.
Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2011, 09:01:12 PM
How about a different approach? How about asking ourselves "What is true forgiveness?" Does Scripture not say that our sin is cast as far as the east is from the west??? IF that's the case, then why on earth would we think that there still needs to be some retribution take place to punish us for that which has already been forgiven??? "Well, it's because we need to ask for that forgivness . . ." Really? You mean to say that if someone offends you, you don't have to forgive them unless they come to you and admit they offended you and ask for you to forgive them? What is "turn the other cheek" all about if it's not about immediate forgiveness WITHOUT CONDITION OR ENGAGEMENT OF THE OTHER PARTY INVOLVED.
We still think bad people are going to go through some torture on the other side of some sort? Is that how forgiveness works? I know, my mind still can't grasp the enormity of God's forgiveness but in that cloudbank of uncomprehension, I hear the continual and reassuring call to just keep advancing in the kingdom and God will do the rest.
So, those who's names are not in the book of life (Christ) are cast into the lake of fire (God the Father) where they become transformed . . .are we who "have" turned to Christ now in God? Wouldn't that then also mean that we who have turned our mortality in for his immortality live, and move . . .and have our being IN the LAKE OF FIRE??? I don't want to be cast out of the lake, I want God to teach me how to do the back stroke!!!
You may very well be right about all of this. Personally, I don't see the LoF as being a punishment. I see it as a state of being (as Jab has said) in conditions set by God to bring about repentance and purification. On earth, Christians go through this now. I believe there will be those who go through this after death. When we suffer now, is this about payment? Retribution? I would suggest not, payment has been made in full...agreed sins east west gone. We that said, we still experience many of the consequences of sin. Within those consequences, lessons are learned. We live in the fire now. Why should we expect different for those after death?
Ah, for me, the consequences we speak of are carried out solely in this realm (In THIS world you will have trials and tribulation . . .) The reason for me why it would be different, even opposite in the spiritual realm is pretty much because the kingdom principles operate on an opposite set of values than what we experience on this side of lfie.
Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2011, 11:03:50 PM
Ah, for me, the consequences we speak of are carried out solely in this realm (In THIS world you will have trials and tribulation . . .) The reason for me why it would be different, even opposite in the spiritual realm is pretty much because the kingdom principles operate on an opposite set of values than what we experience on this side of lfie.
That may be possible. So what is the LoF to you? Is it just an immediate transformation of nonbelievers into believers? Only believers in this life experience the pain that comes within the sanctification process?
I believe it's a spiritual condition brought about by being in God's direct presence, which will bring about conviction and repentance. I do believe that's always painful - in this life or the next age - it just may not take month/years for most to come to that place. My personal conviction lasted much of one day, a Sunday afternoon where I became so miserable and afraid, I knew there was but one option.
So I believe those reborn in this life have already been visited in conviction by the Holy Spirit (and the ongoing sanctification process, as you say) so we won't be hurt by the Lake of Fire/second death. I'll almost say I believe the actual Lake of Fire is God - and I think that's at least VERY close. However, I think of the verse of the Lake of Fire having been prepared for the devil and his angels, so then I think it must be, although extremely connected to the Fire of God (Consuming Fire), a "separate function" (to use a very inadequate term) that emanates from/of God. I believe it's so closely connected to Him, it's "almost" Him...if that makes any sense at all. Lake, immersed, totally bathed in...
Again, the glass darkly, and my words don't quite accomplish... :bigGrin:
Jab I'm with you, I look at it like when Isaiah needed the coal on his lips. His sin was instantly revealed and He knew He needed to purified, and that was in a vision, imagine being in the direct presence. When I truly was finally opened to how sinful sin is after years of being almost tolerant (can't find the right word, maybe apathetic) to sin, and I put my self into His light, I watched my self walk across a line into a whitehot light, it hurt but not in a bad way at all. Its being burned with pure love, and your nakedness is being exposed, but His love was warmth like the sun on my nakedness but all the way through my self. I can't wait to be in His presence wholly, all creation is groaning for it. For the unbelievers... it hurts so good.
Amen, beautiful. :thumbsup:
It hurt but not in a bad way . . .hmmm . . .
I'm wondering rather than it being something measured by pain or suffering, what it it's something measured by "positioning". If we are faithful with a few we will be ruler over many . . .what is the "many"?
Quote from: Nathan on March 05, 2011, 06:33:39 PM
It hurt but not in a bad way . . .hmmm . . .
I'm wondering rather than it being something measured by pain or suffering, what it it's something measured by "positioning". If we are faithful with a few we will be ruler over many . . .what is the "many"?
I suppose that's what I am getting at. I know it may sound petty but having to go through the sanctification process on earth is not easy nor is it painless. To say a nonbeliever can live however they wish then just be instantly transformed into perfection doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's my own selfishness or limitations but it would be nice to think that there is some afterlife reward for trying to live for Christ.
When I say it hurt but not in a bad way, it still hurt. It was more shame, and regret, and feeling so inferior and worthless, yet He comforted and says you have worth, you are fearfully and wonderfully made, he clothes us in righteousness.
Over the next few days and weeks, I would have a moment where another layer of His love and perfection was revealed, and another layer of fig leaves were taken off and and my nakedness would be revealed again, but then He would clothe me again. Each time my shame and guilt was made less and less.
Benefits:
If you are willingly sanctified (christian), it probably doesn't hurt as much, as in those being sanctified directly in His presence (non-christian), surgery vs. gettting an arm lopped off? Another thought is at the great white throne, if we've already confessed our sin, and accepted the forgiveness, and no longer have shame, when it is read in front of everyone (at least thats my take on it) its not as big of a deal.
Plus we get to rule and reign, but I think we forget about this life. What is eternal life? to know the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. I can't imagine living without Him.
It always makes me smile to see the Lord move. I was in an AA meeting today and one of the women in there had an "issue" with part of the preamble. The portion about "we are not saints". She was visably upset and few of us could really figure out why. What came to mind to me I spoke. I said, in my life when I am seeking answers about something that is bothering me the answer is usually much less relevant/important than insight into why it's bothering me in the first place. As soon as that came out of my mouth I heard in my head, wouldn't it be nice if you took your own advice.
So many times, I give the advice I need. For me, the way God handles his business in the afterlife should be of little relevance to me. That is God's business nor does he need my approval. But, this thought about people living lives anyway they wish then being instantly transformed into perfection has been absolutely eating my lunch. Why does it bother me so much? Whatever the process, why would it matter to me? Why would I want some sort of painful process for nonbelievers? Ugly questions that reveal much about my walk. It's hard asking these questions.
I'm not sure I have worked it all out in my head. But, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't. Ugh. I have mixed feelings about these sort of internal revelations...these mirrors...seeing my spiritual reflection is not always easy. Am I really living love? Or, is my walk more self seeking behavior that I expect to be rewarded? But, I know if God is bringing it to my attention, he is moving to change it.
I know that I don't deserve eternal life. I have not done anything worthy of reward. The "sacrifice" is merely my flesh crying out for validation. All is grace, and if God wants to pour out his grace in abundance to those who don't believe in a process that is instant and without pain, if there is no additional reward to those who are faithful...is that a game changer for me? Is that something that will hinder my walk? Why do I live for Christ? Is it truly because of love for him? Or am I dressing selfishness in piety and calling it something spiritual?
I have those thought to. But I think the biggest challenge for me is the fear that God will somehow change the meaning of the scripture. I.e I thought the lake of fire was going to be painful? it says in the letters in the book of revelation etc.
If this turns out to be the case and I feel as if God has lied to me all my life, I would probably hate/dislike God for months maybe years, possibly one second I guess (Not revenge on adulterer type hatred, but an angry kid type hatred). But since heaven is for eternity and there is a lot of peace up there, whatever injustices I feel God has dealt me and others, I will be able to forgive in time and forget the pain of the past, including the pain of having wrong understanding of scripture. For one I know that certain scriptures do infuriate me, and feel God could have done a much better job and hasn't tried very hard to bring certain truths to the common man and make this world a better place, especially the bad things that the church did in the past could have been avoided if God didn't fool around with words, but only reveals to those who pray all their lives etc, but I guess in heaven, when God says the answer it would seem so simple and a let down, a bit like in the movie star wars when Obiwan Kenobi explained to Luke skywalker that Darth vader was killed from a certain point of view. A bit like the overly wise, smug man who finally reveals simple things after decades of frustration. But just got trust God that he's not a smug, overly wise, thingymebob?, His presence is trustworthy, but his word needs improvement I think, and I think that it is improving, and it seems to be that the word also like us has had to travel through the valley of the shadow of death since it's humble beginings and has had to pass and go through the arms of countless number of evil men's hands who would love to destroy it and change it's message and also to gain a monopoly over it and also to try and explain the meaning of the texts and also go through countless translations, wars, time corruption, and for the scribes to write accurately. So the word has had a pretty rough journey. Imagine it's vast course it has taken, maybe one day in heaven we will be able to sit back and watch a movie of how the word went through countless generations and survived, wars, natural disasters and everything the enemy could throw at it.
Quote from: shawn on March 05, 2011, 08:31:59 PM
It always makes me smile to see the Lord move. I was in an AA meeting today and one of the women in there had an "issue" with part of the preamble. The portion about "we are not saints". She was visably upset and few of us could really figure out why. What came to mind to me I spoke. I said, in my life when I am seeking answers about something that is bothering me the answer is usually much less relevant/important than insight into why it's bothering me in the first place. As soon as that came out of my mouth I heard in my head, wouldn't it be nice if you took your own advice.
So many times, I give the advice I need. For me, the way God handles his business in the afterlife should be of little relevance to me. That is God's business nor does he need my approval. But, this thought about people living lives anyway they wish then being instantly transformed into perfection has been absolutely eating my lunch. Why does it bother me so much? Whatever the process, why would it matter to me? Why would I want some sort of painful process for nonbelievers? Ugly questions that reveal much about my walk. It's hard asking these questions.
I'm not sure I have worked it all out in my head. But, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't. Ugh. I have mixed feelings about these sort of internal revelations...these mirrors...seeing my spiritual reflection is not always easy. Am I really living love? Or, is my walk more self seeking behavior that I expect to be rewarded? But, I know if God is bringing it to my attention, he is moving to change it.
I know that I don't deserve eternal life. I have not done anything worthy of reward. The "sacrifice" is merely my flesh crying out for validation. All is grace, and if God wants to pour out his grace in abundance to those who don't believe in a process that is instant and without pain, if there is no additional reward to those who are faithful...is that a game changer for me? Is that something that will hinder my walk? Why do I live for Christ? Is it truly because of love for him? Or am I dressing selfishness in piety and calling it something spiritual?
The honesty in this post is earth-shattering.
Blessings shawn!
brian
Quote from: ShawnBut, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't.
We think sacrifice has to be something difficult, painful, and maybe even deadly. That's why it was such a shock to me to see he wants sacrifices of joy. He wants me to sacrifice my joy to Him? And, indeed, that is the one odd characteristic we notice about the apostles--that they are always happy no matter what awful thing might be happening to them. Count it all joy, says James. This is a function, not of the action or the circumstance, but of the relationship with God.
Psalm 27:6
And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.Isaiah 56:7
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Blame God for "lying"? The lies are not from him. They come from the carnality of this place that influences men and us. What God has done is take that which intended to be destruction to us and he's reversed into resurrection in us. What I used to believe got me to where I was when I made the crossing. Had I not have had what I had, the crossing may never have come in this life time at all. The key is that we embrace where we are in him "now" so that we can continue to advance in him in the tomorrows to come. But even then, hold on to the doctrines loosely so that should the time come where we are asked to release them again, we can do so willingly and effortlessly. It's called growth . . .and that's always a good thing.
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on March 07, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 05, 2011, 08:31:59 PM
It always makes me smile to see the Lord move. I was in an AA meeting today and one of the women in there had an "issue" with part of the preamble. The portion about "we are not saints". She was visably upset and few of us could really figure out why. What came to mind to me I spoke. I said, in my life when I am seeking answers about something that is bothering me the answer is usually much less relevant/important than insight into why it's bothering me in the first place. As soon as that came out of my mouth I heard in my head, wouldn't it be nice if you took your own advice.
So many times, I give the advice I need. For me, the way God handles his business in the afterlife should be of little relevance to me. That is God's business nor does he need my approval. But, this thought about people living lives anyway they wish then being instantly transformed into perfection has been absolutely eating my lunch. Why does it bother me so much? Whatever the process, why would it matter to me? Why would I want some sort of painful process for nonbelievers? Ugly questions that reveal much about my walk. It's hard asking these questions.
I'm not sure I have worked it all out in my head. But, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't. Ugh. I have mixed feelings about these sort of internal revelations...these mirrors...seeing my spiritual reflection is not always easy. Am I really living love? Or, is my walk more self seeking behavior that I expect to be rewarded? But, I know if God is bringing it to my attention, he is moving to change it.
I know that I don't deserve eternal life. I have not done anything worthy of reward. The "sacrifice" is merely my flesh crying out for validation. All is grace, and if God wants to pour out his grace in abundance to those who don't believe in a process that is instant and without pain, if there is no additional reward to those who are faithful...is that a game changer for me? Is that something that will hinder my walk? Why do I live for Christ? Is it truly because of love for him? Or am I dressing selfishness in piety and calling it something spiritual?
The honesty in this post is earth-shattering.
Blessings shawn!
brian
Brian,
God has brought some healing into my life in various areas over the past 3+ years. He has brought some knowledge and I am in a constant state of seeking more. I have MUCH to learn. But, one thing I have learned is I can't suffer secretly. I am making more attempts to live transparently. In the groups I attend they like to say "secrets make us sick". There is deep spiritual insight there. I know that if I bring my struggles, motivations, acts stemming from lack of faith out into the open, then that is one step closer to God moving to change it. There is something very powerful about opening up to others.
I have so many areas that I believe God will work on with me. But, today I am ok knowing that even though I fall short, my motivations are not always pure, and I stumble and fall on my face that I am a child of God. I am right where I am supposed to be right now. I find much peace with that. I am at peace with the now but I have an ache for that growth. I believe God will finish the work he has started.
Quote from: Molly on March 07, 2011, 04:57:25 PM
Quote from: ShawnBut, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't.
We think sacrifice has to be something difficult, painful, and maybe even deadly. That's why it was such a shock to me to see he wants sacrifices of joy. He wants me to sacrifice my joy to Him? And, indeed, that is the one odd characteristic we notice about the apostles--that they are always happy no matter what awful thing might be happening to them. Count it all joy, says James. This is a function, not of the action or the circumstance, but of the relationship with God.
Psalm 27:6
And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
Isaiah 56:7
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
I really love this post Molly. The sacrifice of joy. Wow. To be at peace no matter what the circumstance seems almost unattainable to me. I know for sure it's unattainable by me. But, with God all things are possible. And I believe God will move. I have seen too much to ever think God won't do exactly what he said he is going to do.
Romans 8
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That brings tears to my eyes. We are more than conquerors, nothing will seperate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote from: Nathan on March 08, 2011, 12:14:28 AM
Blame God for "lying"? The lies are not from him. They come from the carnality of this place that influences men and us. What God has done is take that which intended to be destruction to us and he's reversed into resurrection in us. What I used to believe got me to where I was when I made the crossing. Had I not have had what I had, the crossing may never have come in this life time at all. The key is that we embrace where we are in him "now" so that we can continue to advance in him in the tomorrows to come. But even then, hold on to the doctrines loosely so that should the time come where we are asked to release them again, we can do so willingly and effortlessly. It's called growth . . .and that's always a good thing.
I think lying was the wrong word, concealing is a better word, the scripture says he does hide things from us and I find it perplexing that he chooses to do this, it makes me question his claim to being full of love and mercy when he conceals and aslo prompts evil men to do evil. I.e Nathan go and kill this man who is annoying me. So you go off to kill the man, you come back and report to me and I say "Nathan your are evil, your heart is full of evil and you killed the man"
But you instructed me to killl him?
My words are spirit"TT pretending to be God
This is what is currently seperating me and God is this issue, he being full of wisdom would know that the majority of man who reads the word is carnal and would interpret the word in carnal form, so why use carnal type instructions. Why not say "Jesus will come with spiritual fire to cleanse the hearts of people etc. But instead the prophets speak using carnal language just one example is "God will come with a consuming fire and turn the wicked into stubble etc. Is it no wonder that some christians burned people and their houses?
Also it brings the problem of whether to interpret the scripture literally or spiritually, ok a lot of the times both can be done, but still if the scripture is literal and it is important to know, ie. when Noah built an ark it depended on his life that he would take the scripture literally or he and his familly would die, in his instance it would not be needed to ponder over the spiritual meaning, but rather take action on the word he received. Likewise Abrahams wife had a word that she would have a baby at old age, if she took this spirituallly, she might have missed here chance of fullfilling, or rather, believing the word and not take action.
TT, sometimes it is prudent to keep secrets.
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
--1 Cor 2
Those 'princes,' by the way, are the chief [archon] among supernatural rulers [kosmokrator] of this [evil] age.
Quote from: thinktank on March 08, 2011, 07:14:50 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 08, 2011, 12:14:28 AM
Blame God for "lying"? The lies are not from him. They come from the carnality of this place that influences men and us. What God has done is take that which intended to be destruction to us and he's reversed into resurrection in us. What I used to believe got me to where I was when I made the crossing. Had I not have had what I had, the crossing may never have come in this life time at all. The key is that we embrace where we are in him "now" so that we can continue to advance in him in the tomorrows to come. But even then, hold on to the doctrines loosely so that should the time come where we are asked to release them again, we can do so willingly and effortlessly. It's called growth . . .and that's always a good thing.
I think lying was the wrong word, concealing is a better word, the scripture says he does hide things from us and I find it perplexing that he chooses to do this, it makes me question his claim to being full of love and mercy when he conceals and aslo prompts evil men to do evil. I.e Nathan go and kill this man who is annoying me. So you go off to kill the man, you come back and report to me and I say "Nathan your are evil, your heart is full of evil and you killed the man"
But you instructed me to killl him?
My words are spirit"TT pretending to be God
This is what is currently seperating me and God is this issue, he being full of wisdom would know that the majority of man who reads the word is carnal and would interpret the word in carnal form, so why use carnal type instructions. Why not say "Jesus will come with spiritual fire to cleanse the hearts of people etc. But instead the prophets speak using carnal language just one example is "God will come with a consuming fire and turn the wicked into stubble etc. Is it no wonder that some christians burned people and their houses?
Also it brings the problem of whether to interpret the scripture literally or spiritually, ok a lot of the times both can be done, but still if the scripture is literal and it is important to know, ie. when Noah built an ark it depended on his life that he would take the scripture literally or he and his familly would die, in his instance it would not be needed to ponder over the spiritual meaning, but rather take action on the word he received. Likewise Abrahams wife had a word that she would have a baby at old age, if she took this spirituallly, she might have missed here chance of fullfilling, or rather, believing the word and not take action.
Romans 9 MSG
20-33Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question? Clay doesn't talk back to the fingers that mold it, saying, "Why did you shape me like this?" Isn't it obvious that a potter has a perfect right to shape one lump of clay into a vase for holding flowers and another into a pot for cooking beans? If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right? Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people.
Quote from: thinktank on March 08, 2011, 07:14:50 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 08, 2011, 12:14:28 AM
Blame God for "lying"? The lies are not from him. They come from the carnality of this place that influences men and us. What God has done is take that which intended to be destruction to us and he's reversed into resurrection in us. What I used to believe got me to where I was when I made the crossing. Had I not have had what I had, the crossing may never have come in this life time at all. The key is that we embrace where we are in him "now" so that we can continue to advance in him in the tomorrows to come. But even then, hold on to the doctrines loosely so that should the time come where we are asked to release them again, we can do so willingly and effortlessly. It's called growth . . .and that's always a good thing.
I think lying was the wrong word, concealing is a better word, the scripture says he does hide things from us and I find it perplexing that he chooses to do this, it makes me question his claim to being full of love and mercy when he conceals and aslo prompts evil men to do evil. I.e Nathan go and kill this man who is annoying me. So you go off to kill the man, you come back and report to me and I say "Nathan your are evil, your heart is full of evil and you killed the man"
But you instructed me to killl him?
My words are spirit"TT pretending to be God
This is what is currently seperating me and God is this issue, he being full of wisdom would know that the majority of man who reads the word is carnal and would interpret the word in carnal form, so why use carnal type instructions. Why not say "Jesus will come with spiritual fire to cleanse the hearts of people etc. But instead the prophets speak using carnal language just one example is "God will come with a consuming fire and turn the wicked into stubble etc. Is it no wonder that some christians burned people and their houses?
Also it brings the problem of whether to interpret the scripture literally or spiritually, ok a lot of the times both can be done, but still if the scripture is literal and it is important to know, ie. when Noah built an ark it depended on his life that he would take the scripture literally or he and his familly would die, in his instance it would not be needed to ponder over the spiritual meaning, but rather take action on the word he received. Likewise Abrahams wife had a word that she would have a baby at old age, if she took this spirituallly, she might have missed here chance of fullfilling, or rather, believing the word and not take action.
We are vessels . . .we merely do what we are created to do. If I was created as a sword, I would be used to murder and then be called a sword because that's what I was created "as". I don't think God's treasures are hidden "from" us, I believe they are hidden 'for" us. But if we're not interested in pursuing them, we'll not realize their true worth and we'll be left unchanged. God wants us to chase him, to pursue him, to put in an effort to experience his nature. I think it has much to do with our "desire" for him more than his revealing himself to us.
Are you saying then that even though a lot of the bible is double dutch, that as we pursue that in this book of offense , that there is treasure to be found and that God gives us this desire to search this offensive bible that the world hates, and somehow find gems of understanding. That the book was deliberatily set up to be offensive and foolish as the scriptures says, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the wise. From personal experience I seem to see that Christians and God are good, but sometimes I feel the bible is not on the same level, but I guess a lot is the limitations of words, because I also at the same time, I hope you have read here that I have great respect also for the bible, it's genius, supernatural survival, the only book to predict the future, and being the pionner of changing the world and bringing many of todays freedoms into being. But it seems that Christians are the one that do most of the changing through the spirit of God, rather than the actual bible, as a lot of christians don't even read it these days, but rely on the holy spirit and the living word.
Quote from: thinktank on March 08, 2011, 08:54:35 PM
Are you saying then that even though a lot of the bible is double dutch, that as we pursue that in this book of offense , that there is treasure to be found and that God gives us this desire to search this offensive bible that the world hates, and somehow find gems of understanding. That the book was deliberatily set up to be offensive and foolish as the scriptures says, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the wise. From personal experience I seem to see that Christians and God are good, but sometimes I feel the bible is not on the same level, but I guess a lot is the limitations of words, because I also at the same time, I hope you have read here that I have great respect also for the bible, it's genius, supernatural survival, the only book to predict the future, and being the pionner of changing the world and bringing many of todays freedoms into being. But it seems that Christians are the one that do most of the changing through the spirit of God, rather than the actual bible, as a lot of christians don't even read it these days, but rely on the holy spirit and the living word.
Yeah, I don't believe Nathan is saying anything like that. The Bible isn't "double dutch", offensive, foolish, limited or anything of the like. To call the Bible such things, scriptures inspired by God is deeply troubling.
The Bible will
seem foolish to the secular/natural mind. It can certainly seem offensive to those who do not love God. But, it's our minds which are limited, our insights which are left wanting.
God certainly keeps certain things secret. Look at his plan for the Gentiles. He revealed it in his own time. Who are we to question that timing? Who are we to question his motives? I believe he does so for some of the reasons Nathan stated. But, I also believe he does so because it's part of his plan to keep things within his timeline of revelation. Do I understand these things? No, nor do I have to. I live by faith, this is a faith walk. I am uplifted by scripture and directed by the Holy Spirit. The Bible plays a very significant role in that.
Yeah, I think the "double Dutch" has a lot to do with the attempt to interpret spiritual truth with natural thinking minds. It will always end in contortion. The form of truth can be seen, but it's liberating power remains locked due to the fact that spiritual truth can only be rightly divided through spiritual revelation from the Father. The rest of it is like pieces to a puzzle. When we're relying on our mind's interpretation of Scriptures, we may be able to see forms and framework, but we can't see the whole picture because it can't be seen by the natural mind of men. We see the form of truth but we've not gotten into the full benefit of power of Truth's fullest potential in our lives.
So we at best are able to twist the words to "appear" to say what we "think" is the truth. But as soon as it's questioned, we go on the warpath against those questioning our stance. "if" it's spiritual truth that is manifesting in us, there is no need for defending it because there's no offense strong enough to overtake it. It has a life of it's own . . .that's how it can "transform" us. All death can do is decompose us. But only life can truly transform us from one form of our nature into an even greater one . . .which is "His" nature living 'in" us.
There is no shadow or turning in His truth. It's our reality, our perspectives of his truth that are forever changing, which is as it should be . . .it's called growth.
Quote from: shawn on March 08, 2011, 06:29:37 PM
Quote from: whyiloveitaly on March 07, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 05, 2011, 08:31:59 PM
It always makes me smile to see the Lord move. I was in an AA meeting today and one of the women in there had an "issue" with part of the preamble. The portion about "we are not saints". She was visably upset and few of us could really figure out why. What came to mind to me I spoke. I said, in my life when I am seeking answers about something that is bothering me the answer is usually much less relevant/important than insight into why it's bothering me in the first place. As soon as that came out of my mouth I heard in my head, wouldn't it be nice if you took your own advice.
So many times, I give the advice I need. For me, the way God handles his business in the afterlife should be of little relevance to me. That is God's business nor does he need my approval. But, this thought about people living lives anyway they wish then being instantly transformed into perfection has been absolutely eating my lunch. Why does it bother me so much? Whatever the process, why would it matter to me? Why would I want some sort of painful process for nonbelievers? Ugly questions that reveal much about my walk. It's hard asking these questions.
I'm not sure I have worked it all out in my head. But, obviously there is a part of me that still considers walking with Christ a sacrifice, something hard and constrictive. If I make this "sacrifice" then there had better be an award, or some sort of consequence for those who don't. Ugh. I have mixed feelings about these sort of internal revelations...these mirrors...seeing my spiritual reflection is not always easy. Am I really living love? Or, is my walk more self seeking behavior that I expect to be rewarded? But, I know if God is bringing it to my attention, he is moving to change it.
I know that I don't deserve eternal life. I have not done anything worthy of reward. The "sacrifice" is merely my flesh crying out for validation. All is grace, and if God wants to pour out his grace in abundance to those who don't believe in a process that is instant and without pain, if there is no additional reward to those who are faithful...is that a game changer for me? Is that something that will hinder my walk? Why do I live for Christ? Is it truly because of love for him? Or am I dressing selfishness in piety and calling it something spiritual?
The honesty in this post is earth-shattering.
Blessings shawn!
brian
Brian,
God has brought some healing into my life in various areas over the past 3+ years. He has brought some knowledge and I am in a constant state of seeking more. I have MUCH to learn. But, one thing I have learned is I can't suffer secretly. I am making more attempts to live transparently. In the groups I attend they like to say "secrets make us sick". There is deep spiritual insight there. I know that if I bring my struggles, motivations, acts stemming from lack of faith out into the open, then that is one step closer to God moving to change it. There is something very powerful about opening up to others.
I have so many areas that I believe God will work on with me. But, today I am ok knowing that even though I fall short, my motivations are not always pure, and I stumble and fall on my face that I am a child of God. I am right where I am supposed to be right now. I find much peace with that. I am at peace with the now but I have an ache for that growth. I believe God will finish the work he has started.
Beautiful!
I think what you are referring to is "walking in the Spirit." Or living in the NOW, which is all we have. Salvation is "today" because this is all we have. The manna fresh from the Father is what we need, not the old manna which was a blessing to some of old, but which cannot bring us life today.
Blessings to you!
brian
Quote from: nesto on March 04, 2011, 03:42:34 AM
WHat exactly will take place in the lake of fire?
Purification.
Fire and
brimstoneθεῖον
theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: probably of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing)
Citing in TDNT: 3:122,*
Malachi 3:2 ...for he is like a refiner's fire....
Mark 9:49-50 or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
YLTRev 1410 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
βασανίζω
basanizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Note that a refiner (Mal 3:2) uses that stone. A refiner watches/tests if all dross is removed from the gold. Imo if the Bible speaks about wheat don't just study commentaries from a theologian; also go to the library and read about farming/wheat. Same for sheep, fish, gold and marriage. Jesus was a teacher. A teacher teaches at the student. If you where an illiterate farmer and you hear about wheat or sheep would you or would you not relate that to your daily job.
Please note for the Jews at that time there isn't much new stuff in the NT.
Most of Jesus parables were used on daily basis for teaching people the things of God long before Jesus was born.
QuoteIsn't being born again in this age a 100 percent given that the sin is NO LONGER Imputed to that person?
I think that are entirely different things
Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
1 Chronicles 21:26 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
1 Corinthians 3:13 .... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Ezekiel 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, .... saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about ....
Genesis 15:17 .... behold a smoking furnace (God), and a burning lamp (God) that passed between those pieces (cut up sacrificial animals).
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire
Isaiah 4:4 .... and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isaiah 4:5 .... a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the LORD put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD departed out of his sight.
Luke 3:16 .... he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Þ Baptism is a positive act.
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner (uses fire) and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi (priests), and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mark 9:49-50 or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....
Matthew 3:11 .... whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried (=tested) with fire ....
1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Psalm 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his (God) nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Psalm 66:10-12 .... thou hast tried us, as silver is tried (=tested) .... we went through fire and through water: but thou broughtest us out into a wealthy place.
Psalm 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Romans 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him (=love); if he thirst, give him drink (=love): for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire (=love) on his head.
two questions that worry me in this:
if the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and fallen angels and then the wicked to be thrown in also, how is this going to redeem ALL? what of the devil and angels thrown into it as well?
then if death is thrown in that means there is no more death but it also means that those is in the lake of fire will not die but possibly live forever and be tormented forever there, which is what traditional church teaches....is there any proof that refutes this or are there theories? i need to know the answers to this... deceased family/friends and others i know of who were not /are not saved :sigh:
thanks
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 01:23:27 AM
two questions that worry me in this:
if the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and fallen angels and then the wicked to be thrown in also, how is this going to redeem ALL? what of the devil and angels thrown into it as well?
then if death is thrown in that means there is no more death but it also means that those is in the lake of fire will not die but possibly live forever and be tormented forever there, which is what traditional church teaches....is there any proof that refutes this or are there theories? i need to know the answers to this... deceased family/friends and others i know of who were not /are not saved :sigh:
thanks
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
You can see by the following scripture that only the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons because unbelieving mortals will be dead but then vivified when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
"And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail. And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out of heaven and devoured them. And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts. And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:7-14)
"7 The loosing of Satan finds mankind as a whole unregenerate after the thousand years of peace. They are ready as ever to follow the deceptions of Satan and oppose the Christ of God. But they are given short shrift, for fire descends from heaven and devours them. The fire eonian was prepared for the Adversary and his messengers (cf page 49:41, 46). Now he receives his doom.
11 The Great White Throne judgment has no place for those who are Christ's, for they have all been made alive and have been enjoying eonian life for more than a millennium.
Temple Section—Jerusalem
12 This is not a "general" judgment, though it approaches nearer to it than any other. Only the dead appear before this throne. Those who are Christ's will have been made alive at His presence more than a thousand years before (1Co.15:23). Those who are His will not die during the thousand years, nor can they be hurt by the second death. Hence only those who have not believed in Christ appear in this judgment. They will all receive their just deserts, according to their acts, during the period between their resurrection and second death. Hence they are condemned, for all fall short of God's standard. They are not vivified, or made alive, as the saints are, by a better resurrection, hence they die again.
13 Thus all evil is segregated in the lake of fire, where Satan and the wild beast and the false prophet already are (20:10). "This is the second death" defines the lake of fire. Those who have been raised from death return to the same state in the second death. The only immunity from condemnation lies in having a place in the scroll of life." (Concordant Commentary pg. 404-Revelation 20:7-14)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 01:23:27 AM
two questions that worry me in this:
if the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and fallen angels and then the wicked to be thrown in also, how is this going to redeem ALL? what of the devil and angels thrown into it as well?
then if death is thrown in that means there is no more death but it also means that those is in the lake of fire will not die but possibly live forever and be tormented forever there, which is what traditional church teaches....is there any proof that refutes this or are there theories? i need to know the answers to this... deceased family/friends and others i know of who were not /are not saved :sigh:
thanks
I think the reason death and the grave are thrown into the LOF is because of what I see in Isaiah 30. I see the LOF as an experience similar to the prodigal son. In Isaiah 30, he says that sin will be to them as a breach in the wall that brings the wall down. When the wall comes down, so goes the breach. When the prodigal son repented, he came to life. I believe the LOF results in repentance, and when repentance comes, life comes thereafter, even immortality. All the bad stuff goes into the LOF to be destroyed. And through repentance life comes, and in the LOF they are brought to that state of repenting and being brought into New Jerusalem to drink the water of life. I don't see it as a place but a state of being as used by God for judgment as in Romans 1.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
IMO, whatever the particulars, the LOF is light. Light is fire to darkness. Everything that is hidden will be brought to light. All that is brought to light becomes light. All that is darkness, including death and the grave, will be consumed in it, until there is only light.
God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
Luke 8:17 For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
Ephesians 5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Well yes, the LOF is JUDGMENT and it will be THE search light.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 01:23:27 AM
two questions that worry me in this:
if the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and fallen angels and then the wicked to be thrown in also, how is this going to redeem ALL? what of the devil and angels thrown into it as well?
then if death is thrown in that means there is no more death but it also means that those is in the lake of fire will not die but possibly live forever and be tormented forever there, which is what traditional church teaches....is there any proof that refutes this or are there theories? i need to know the answers to this... deceased family/friends and others i know of who were not /are not saved :sigh:
thanks
You have asked some great questions sister
and there are some good answers here
How can we help you understand what we believe is truth ?
as we share our thoughts on the LOF and so many are in different places in our walk in the Spirit ..
If you believe that everything come out of God and Jesus Christ was sent by the Father and is being gathered into Christ now
and He will not fail in doing this till all enemies are put under His feet , this is the teaching of the good news of the gospel
every knee will bow to Him in honor and every tongue will confess the Lord Jesus Christ in the end none will escape this truth by the Spirit of Holiness
and the simplest way to understand this for me is this way
the devil and his angels messengers have this place prepared for them and we all know that the devil is the source and origin of evil , murderer and liar from the start and God contains this evil in the Fire of His presence , because God is a consuming fire and God is Love and God is Spirit and truth and God is HOLY above all else we serve a HOLY FATHER , FATHER of us all ..
and many believe the fire of correction and purification is a process of time till all the evil /dross is removed , just as we are going though those fires and trials of our faith
Have you ever wondered how you changed from being a non believer to a believer in Christ ? Its by faith given to you by the Work of God though Jesus Christ to believe HIM and obey Him that done this Holy Spirit work , not us , we did not save ourselves and God is fair , Why you are saved and not others given the same mercy in their lives ?
all evil in us now or evil in those whom were not given the grace of salvation in this life will have the same hope and opportunity , GOD IS LOVE and loves His enemies as we are also to do and have in us now working in our members , our protection now is the Body of Christ
this is how the Words blessed is he who is in the first Resurrection for the 2nd death has no power or harm to you
you will not be hurt of the 2nd death , those whom go though the hurt will know they need Jesus too and when they confess Jesus Christ they are saved as well but have suffered loss , everything in the world could not save them , as we all do now , we suffer for Christ sake and gave up on the world and its pomp by taking up our cross and following Jesus to overcome the world that Satan offers to live for ourselves and in the flesh and doing evil against the LORDS BODY , The Head being the authority HIMSELF , Jesus overcome the world by the Cross defeating satan and that power over death and so we have entered into His rest in hope by faith in His Love
We must believe everything God does is good and perfect for all not just a few this is a perversion of the spirit in a man to think they are holy and saved and everyone else is doomed and lost , God is whom has been in control and is in control and will always have dominion over all His creation
GOD IS POWERFUL TO SAVE AND THE LOVE of His Spirit IS BOUNDLESS there is no measure to it nor ending :flowerred:
here is the main scriptures to show us Gods plan for all , when HE IS ALL IN ALL as He has always been and is and will be ...
Personally I had a very hard time understanding this for years , doubts rose up within , and faith was tested and tried by what to believe , our faith is sure tested tried and true in the end God will remove all doubts when you truly can trust Him for all , Its is His after all and you are His and those whom passed over are also and so are we
12But if The Messiah who arose from among the dead is preached, how are there some among you who say there is no life for the dead?*
13
And if there is no life for the dead, even The Messiah has not risen. [ when we doubt Jesus Christ has risen we have no hope :sigh:]
14And if The Messiah is not risen, our preaching is worthless and your faith is also worthless.
15But we are also found to be lying witnesses of God,
for we testified of God that he raised The Messiah, when he did not raise him.
16
For if those who have died do not live again, not even The Messiah is alive.*
17And if The Messiah is not alive, your faith is empty and you are yet in your sins;
18
Doubtless[used to refer to a desirable outcome as though it were certain]. also those who fell asleep in The Messiah have themselves perished. 19And if in this life only we hope in The Messiah, so it is that we are more wretched than all people.
for me that have not perished and are in CHRIST /Holy City now ...[Hebrews 12 read it for yourself ]
20But now The Messiah is risen from among the dead and
is the first fruits of those who sleep. 21Just as by a man death came, in this way also by a man the dead come to life.
22For just as by Adam all people die, in this way also by The Messiah they all live;
23Each person in his order; The Messiah was the first fruits; after this, those who are
The Messiah's at his arrival. 24
And then the end will come, w
hen he will deliver The Kingdom to God The Father, when he will destroy every Ruler and every Authority and all Powers. 25
For he is going to reign until all his enemies will be set under his feet,
26
And the last enemy death shall be destroyed [ we know the opposite of death is Life ] :HeartThrob:
27
For he brought all things to submission under his feet. [ Jesus is above and below mediator the ONE who makes people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between. for He is the Lord of the dead and living ]
But when it says, "All things are subjected to him", it is understood that it excludes him who subjected all things to him.
all answers are in the Word of God and by the SPIRIT OF GOD can we even know them
28And when all is subjected to him, then the Son shall be subject to him who subjected all things to him, that God might be all in all
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 17, 2014, 01:23:27 AM
two questions that worry me in this:
if the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and fallen angels and then the wicked to be thrown in also, how is this going to redeem ALL? what of the devil and angels thrown into it as well?
then if death is thrown in that means there is no more death but it also means that those is in the lake of fire will not die but possibly live forever and be tormented forever there, which is what traditional church teaches....is there any proof that refutes this or are there theories? i need to know the answers to this... deceased family/friends and others i know of who were not /are not saved :sigh:
thanks
Many good comments here for you to consider lostnbroken. I am happy that you are learning of God's incredible love for each and everyone of us.
My contribution:
The Lake of Fire is mentioned only in Revelation and only in 4 verses. Revelation 19 and 20. The book of Revelation is mostly spiritual and very little is literal. It is full of symbols and metaphors.
This lake of fire (second death) (Rev. 20:15 and 21:8) is a metaphor that is no more literal than "Jesus taking the bread...said, 'Take, EAT. This IS My body" (Mat. 26:26).
There are many more Scriptures that proves this lake of fire has a much more benevolent purpose than torturing evil people for all eternity. That teaching is perverted teaching.
But indeed, the lake of fire and the second death DO INDEED picture something spiritual that relates to or has some properties of, LITERAL FIRE and LITERAL DEATH. Without some similar properties, the metaphor would be meaningless.
Therefore some few correctly believe that the lake of fire AND the second death are both symbolic and figurative language.
The "lake of fire" is symbolic and used in a metaphor to describe a SPIRITUAL TRUTH
The purpose of the lake of fire is to purge people from their sins and is part of what the White Throne Judgment is all about.
A thorough discussion on this topic can be found at:http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html#The Lake Of Fire
If not the elect in the first resurrection..... the Lake of Fire .... Judgment, and awaits all.
Mic 7:7 And I--in Jehovah I do watch, I do wait for the God of my salvation, Hear me doth my God.
Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9 The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
This is my sanctuary, my hope, I speak of myself alone. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
You must be dead to be in Hell. :2c: I ask then, after death and the grave have been thrown into the Lake of Fire, how can anyone be dead (or dead in Hell) after that?
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 18, 2014, 06:11:51 AM
You must be dead to be in Hell. :2c: I ask then, after death and the grave have been thrown into the Lake of Fire, how can anyone be dead (or dead in Hell) after that?
"You must be dead to be in Hell." Don't understand this :sigh:
As Far as I know there will be a resurrection of the dead, raised for the judgment..the second death...the Lake of Fire....to be refined and purified, healed and made whole. :2c:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 18, 2014, 06:11:51 AM
You must be dead to be in Hell. :2c: I ask then, after death and the grave have been thrown into the Lake of Fire, how can anyone be dead (or dead in Hell) after that?
"And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14)
Those who will be raised from death to be judged before the great white throne will return to the same state again in the second death which is how the lake of fire is defined.
PS: The lake of fire is not "hell."
Believing the lake of fire is "hell" is hell.
Big difference between believing in some thing and what is gods reality.
Yeah, it's too bad the same references that give you the origin of the word "hell" also give you the bogus church definition which has nothing to do with the actual original meaning. The Old English word "hell" was used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "un-perceived," in the King James Version. Unfortunately the King James Version also used the word "hell" to translate the Greek "geenna" twelve times which makes it obvious that it was an intentional mistranslation. "Gehenna," the correct translation of the Greek "geenna," is the ravine used as the city dump of Jerusalem where dead bodies of executed criminals were burned as they will be in the coming eon, but it has been intentionally confused with "hell" to perpetrate the lie of torture in fire forever in "hell." The "lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14-KJV).
"The "lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into the "lake of fire"
Absolutely a truth. The Lake of Fire is the second death......Judgment...
I think only mortals will die "the second death" because only they are subject to death. That's why scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons (Revelation 20:10). I believe these three supernatural beings are included in the "all" who are reconciled with God through Christ (Colossians 1:20).
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Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2014, 03:20:04 AM
"The "lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because "hell" will be cast into the "lake of fire"
Absolutely a truth. The Lake of Fire is the second death......Judgment...
:iagree: