Back with new thoughts

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi everyone!
After a bit of time away from this forum, I thought I'd stop back and say "hi!" I saw a youtube vid of Gary recently and it's always a blessing to see him spreading God's Love!

After some time reflecting on some scriptures, I've become convinced of an "aspect" of UR which I didn't believe could be true before. (And it may be that someone mentioned this to me in the past, but didn't "take root" until recently; but it seems very true now.)

So I wanted to bounce it off of others here, maybe some of you have come to the same understanding. If not, maybe it might be opportunity for growth for all of us!

My thoughts are this:

Based on Romans 5: 12-21, it seems very clear to me that, just as God put all mankind in sin, death and condemnation because of the disobedience of "Adam 1," so also He has justified and given Life to all mankind through the obedience of His Word become flesh, "Adam 2." (Jesus Christ)

So if mankind is already justified and "born again" through the New Life given to the world through Jesus Christ (I call it "updating man's operating system"  :grin: ), the salvation comes when God imparts HIS faith to those whom He sees ready, whether now or later, each in his/her own time. "Putting in the sickle" of Revelation.

Any thoughts? Is this very different from your POV of UR?

Blessings to all!
Brian

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi everyone!
just to "bump" this thread, no one has said anything about it yet..!  :sigh:

Well, let me add another question (2 for 1)..

When the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

[Molly]

Hi everyone!
After a bit of time away from this forum, I thought I'd stop back and say "hi!" I saw a youtube vid of Gary recently and it's always a blessing to see him spreading God's Love!

After some time reflecting on some scriptures, I've become convinced of an "aspect" of UR which I didn't believe could be true before. (And it may be that someone mentioned this to me in the past, but didn't "take root" until recently; but it seems very true now.)

So I wanted to bounce it off of others here, maybe some of you have come to the same understanding. If not, maybe it might be opportunity for growth for all of us!

My thoughts are this:

Based on Romans 5: 12-21, it seems very clear to me that, just as God put all mankind in sin, death and condemnation because of the disobedience of "Adam 1," so also He has justified and given Life to all mankind through the obedience of His Word become flesh, "Adam 2." (Jesus Christ)

So if mankind is already justified and "born again" through the New Life given to the world through Jesus Christ (I call it "updating man's operating system"  :grin: ), the salvation comes when God imparts HIS faith to those whom He sees ready, whether now or later, each in his/her own time. "Putting in the sickle" of Revelation.

Any thoughts? Is this very different from your POV of UR?

Blessings to all!
Brian

Yes!  We were just talking about that recently.


5:18  ThereforeG686 G3767 asG5613 byG1223 the offenceG3900 of oneG1520  uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 toG1519 condemnation;G2631

evenG2532 soG3779 byG1223 the righteousnessG1345 of oneG1520  uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 untoG1519 justificationG1347 of life.G2222

This is one of the most powerful UR verses in the Bible.   The opening word 'therefore' is really two greek words, ara oun, meaning, literally, a true conclusion. 

In this manner, the righteous deed of One has justified the lives of all men!

You have to really twist yourself into a pretzel to conclude that Paul didn't mean 'all' men there, he really meant 'some.'

[micah7:9]

Hi everyone!
After a bit of time away from this forum, I thought I'd stop back and say "hi!" I saw a youtube vid of Gary recently and it's always a blessing to see him spreading God's Love!

After some time reflecting on some scriptures, I've become convinced of an "aspect" of UR which I didn't believe could be true before. (And it may be that someone mentioned this to me in the past, but didn't "take root" until recently; but it seems very true now.)

So I wanted to bounce it off of others here, maybe some of you have come to the same understanding. If not, maybe it might be opportunity for growth for all of us!

My thoughts are this:

Based on Romans 5: 12-21, it seems very clear to me that, just as God put all mankind in sin, death and condemnation because of the disobedience of "Adam 1," so also He has justified and given Life to all mankind through the obedience of His Word become flesh, "Adam 2." (Jesus Christ)

So if mankind is already justified and "born again" through the New Life given to the world through Jesus Christ (I call it "updating man's operating system"  :grin: ), the salvation comes when God imparts HIS faith to those whom He sees ready, whether now or later, each in his/her own time. "Putting in the sickle" of Revelation.

Any thoughts? Is this very different from your POV of UR?

Blessings to all!
Brian

Yes!  We were just talking about that recently.


5:18  ThereforeG686 G3767 asG5613 byG1223 the offenceG3900 of oneG1520  uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 toG1519 condemnation;G2631

evenG2532 soG3779 byG1223 the righteousnessG1345 of oneG1520  uponG1519 allG3956 menG444 untoG1519 justificationG1347 of life.G2222

This is one of the most powerful UR verses in the Bible.   The opening word 'therefore' is really two greek words, ara oun, meaning, literally, a true conclusion. 

In this manner, the righteous deed of One has justified the lives of all men!

You have to really twist yourself into a pretzel to conclude that Paul didn't mean 'all' men there, he really meant 'some.'

:bigGrin: :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

Hi everyone!
just to "bump" this thread, no one has said anything about it yet..!  :sigh:

Well, let me add another question (2 for 1)..

When the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

To your other question, even though it's obviously clear that the sacrificial Lamb (Christ) was/is for all men, the Old Covenant application was geared toward only Jews, those where were from each of the twelve tribes that made up the nation of Israel.  They didn't see this atonement to be given to those outside their lineage.  At least that's what "I've" gotten from it.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi everyone!
just to "bump" this thread, no one has said anything about it yet..!  :sigh:

Well, let me add another question (2 for 1)..

When the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

To your other question, even though it's obviously clear that the sacrificial Lamb (Christ) was/is for all men, the Old Covenant application was geared toward only Jews, those where were from each of the twelve tribes that made up the nation of Israel.  They didn't see this atonement to be given to those outside their lineage.  At least that's what "I've" gotten from it.

Hi Nathan,
yes, I realize that the atonement was for the Jews. (Writing this now, I feel that this is a symbolic type of the part of man which God holds dear to Himself, which is the spirit.)
What I was really wondering here, was whether all Jews were covered by the atonement, or only certain ones who "believed." In other words, was belief required in order for the OT sacrifices to be "effective?"
I'm not clear on this point, although I know that there existed "free will offerings" and such, but I don't know if it's relevant here..


Blessings,
brian

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi Brian, welcome back......the Day of Atonement was the one day a year when sins were REMOVED; the rest of the offerings for sin, were to COVER it.

In a comparison format, compare it to, the latter (covering only) being the cleaning of the outside of the cup, but the former (removal) being the cleaning of the inside of the cup. Also, you could compare it to the idea that one is dealing with the root (removed), and one is dealing with the fruit (covered). Change the root, change the fruit. For this reason, it says, "Love COVERS a multitude of sins."

Not allowing the Spirit to deal with the root, is why we tend to fall backwards into the same things we came out of, especially in the beginning of our walk. My  :2c: Blessings....

[whyiloveitaly.com]

:cloud9: Hi Brian, welcome back......the Day of Atonement was the one day a year when sins were REMOVED; the rest of the offerings for sin, were to COVER it.

In a comparison format, compare it to, the latter (covering only) being the cleaning of the outside of the cup, but the former (removal) being the cleaning of the inside of the cup. Also, you could compare it to the idea that one is dealing with the root (removed), and one is dealing with the fruit (covered). Change the root, change the fruit. For this reason, it says, "Love COVERS a multitude of sins."

Not allowing the Spirit to deal with the root, is why we tend to fall backwards into the same things we came out of, especially in the beginning of our walk. My  :2c: Blessings....

Hi Cardinal and thanks!  :bigGrin:

It sounds as though you are saying that Calvary removed all past sins, and the sins of the present are being covered through Love. Correct?

Blessings,
brian

[Nathan]

Hi everyone!
just to "bump" this thread, no one has said anything about it yet..!  :sigh:

Well, let me add another question (2 for 1)..

When the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

To your other question, even though it's obviously clear that the sacrificial Lamb (Christ) was/is for all men, the Old Covenant application was geared toward only Jews, those where were from each of the twelve tribes that made up the nation of Israel.  They didn't see this atonement to be given to those outside their lineage.  At least that's what "I've" gotten from it.

Hi Nathan,
yes, I realize that the atonement was for the Jews. (Writing this now, I feel that this is a symbolic type of the part of man which God holds dear to Himself, which is the spirit.)
What I was really wondering here, was whether all Jews were covered by the atonement, or only certain ones who "believed." In other words, was belief required in order for the OT sacrifices to be "effective?"
I'm not clear on this point, although I know that there existed "free will offerings" and such, but I don't know if it's relevant here..


Blessings,
brian

It occurs to me that the introduction to Job I believe, Job would give sacrifice for his sons

Job 1
4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

I gather that his sons did not take part in the sacrificing for their own sins, but Job did it "for" them which then leads me to believe that would answer your question about whether or not the laws were just for believing Jews or all Jews . . .I don't think the sons were devoted to the law, yet the sacrifice Job gave was on their behalf regardless of what they did or didn't beleive.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

Hi everyone!
just to "bump" this thread, no one has said anything about it yet..!  :sigh:

Well, let me add another question (2 for 1)..

When the OT high priests went into the Holy of Holies with the yearly blood sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel, whose sins were covered: everybody's, or only certain people's?

Please use Scriptures in your answers..

Thanks!

blessings,
brian

To your other question, even though it's obviously clear that the sacrificial Lamb (Christ) was/is for all men, the Old Covenant application was geared toward only Jews, those where were from each of the twelve tribes that made up the nation of Israel.  They didn't see this atonement to be given to those outside their lineage.  At least that's what "I've" gotten from it.

Hi Nathan,
yes, I realize that the atonement was for the Jews. (Writing this now, I feel that this is a symbolic type of the part of man which God holds dear to Himself, which is the spirit.)
What I was really wondering here, was whether all Jews were covered by the atonement, or only certain ones who "believed." In other words, was belief required in order for the OT sacrifices to be "effective?"
I'm not clear on this point, although I know that there existed "free will offerings" and such, but I don't know if it's relevant here..


Blessings,
brian

It occurs to me that the introduction to Job I believe, Job would give sacrifice for his sons

Job 1
4 His sons used to hold feasts in their homes on their birthdays, and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would make arrangements for them to be purified. Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom.

I gather that his sons did not take part in the sacrificing for their own sins, but Job did it "for" them which then leads me to believe that would answer your question about whether or not the laws were just for believing Jews or all Jews . . .I don't think the sons were devoted to the law, yet the sacrifice Job gave was on their behalf regardless of what they did or didn't beleive.

How silly of me!!  :laughing7:
You bring up an EXCELLENT point!
Not only Job, but I believe there are many places where one person provides a sacrifice for others (unbeknownst to them).

So this begs the question:
Did God accept the sacrifices of third parties, even if the second party was unaware or unwilling?
It would seem so, but I'm open to refutation..!

Blessings,
brian

[Nathan]

It would be impossible to embrace UR and not see it this way.  Jesus was the third party sacrifice for the entire human race, whether they were willing recipients or not, whether they were aware of not only their current state, but of the finished state or not, Jesus didn't become the ultimate sacrifice for only those that would consciously accept him, he gave himself to redeem the entire race back to the Father.  That's the beauty of it.

And no, it doesn't mean I can now live however "I" choose because we're all going to the same place in the end. I "can" live however I choose, but there are consequences to that kind of thinking.  But instead, to me it means that I love him all the more because he requires nothing of me other than letting him do all that's required for me to come into "rightstanding" with the Father.

[whyiloveitaly.com]

It would be impossible to embrace UR and not see it this way.  Jesus was the third party sacrifice for the entire human race, whether they were willing recipients or not, whether they were aware of not only their current state, but of the finished state or not, Jesus didn't become the ultimate sacrifice for only those that would consciously accept him, he gave himself to redeem the entire race back to the Father.  That's the beauty of it.

And no, it doesn't mean I can now live however "I" choose because we're all going to the same place in the end. I "can" live however I choose, but there are consequences to that kind of thinking.  But instead, to me it means that I love him all the more because he requires nothing of me other than letting him do all that's required for me to come into "rightstanding" with the Father.

Agreed 110%.

I've been seeing a lot of false accusations coming from fundamentalists lately regarding Universal Reconciliation. The "accuser of the brethren."

Blessings,
brian

[Nathan]

I had this thought drop in me today about the reaction people have to the idea that Jesus did affect the entire human race with his generosity at the cross.  The most common reaction usually is "if everyone ends up in heaven in the end, then we can do whatever we want now and get away with it . . ."  which to them, then takes away the SAVING power of the cross because hell is so ingrained in them, it's commonly accepted that salvation is to save us FROM hell.

What just occurred to me is . . .I AM doing what I want.  I'm pursuing Christ!  I'm no longer shrugging my shoulders at the idea that good people have died and gone to hell.  Not shrugging because I never cared, but shrugging because I didn't have a reasonable answer to that.  I had an answer, but it wasn't really an answer.  Telling people "That's just how God is . . ."  or "That's just what the Bible says . . ." just doesn't seem to cut it.

When the Holy Spirit comes upon you, you will receive POWER to BE my witnesses . . .I am that witness.  I choose to live however I want, and I want to pursue Christ.  I'm tired of being that other guy in the room full of wet blankets hearing the thumping of the dancing going on across the hall where the real party is.  People who carry the message of hell have no joy in them.  In fact, there is more despising going on than celebrating because in their eyes, anyone who's partying are hell-raisers and to that I say AMEN . .YES I AM . . .MY HELL HAS BEEN RAISED . . RESURRECTED!! 

I'm into light burdens now . . .easy yokes . .bridal parties . .as it was in the DAZE of Noah . . .so shall it be in the time of the coming of the Son of Man . . they we're partying and giving in marriage . .they were celebrating.  A flood was coming to wipe out carnality and to usher in a new beginning.  What happened in the natural then, God is doing in the spiritual now.  Coming into UR is actually just the ticket to get people out of their coffins and get them on the dance floor!

The rainbow of promise that God will no longer destroy men, but the next time around, his fire will destroy the man in men . . .sign me up!!

When I was a kid, I was mowing a lawn for a lady that had a bunch of chickens penned up in her back yard . . .I noticed as I mowed that there were frogs in the lawn . . .leapord frogs . . .great for fishing but I wasn't fishing, I was mowing the lawn.  Being a kid,  caught one of the frogs and threw it in the pen . . .the chickens immediately ran over to eat it. . .I'm gonna finish this on another post . . .this one's freaking out on me again.

[redhotmagma]

 :banana: :cheerleader:

[Nathan]

So when the chickens saw me throw "something" into the pen, they immediately ran over to check it out.  Now, if the frog would have just sat still, they never would have bothered him because . . .everybody say it with me . . ."chickens don't eat frogs" . . . but because they ran up to it, it panicked and tried to jump away . . .that only stirred them up more and they attacked.  There were probably 20 chickens in that pen, the frog didn't have a chance . . . they tore it apart.  And, still being a kid, I was floored by what I saw and went frog hunting, as long as I threw a frog in there, they'd eat it, even though chickens don't eat frogs.

It wasn't until I came into these dimensional things that this chicken and the frog thing came back to me.  And it's because these chickens remind me so much of religious people that can't seem to comprehend the enorminty of God's love for humanity.  This is a living, breathing truth and it's akin to the concept of casting pearls before the swine . . .when we try to drop this new and living way into people who embrace the traditions, "Because" the message moves under it's own accord, they immediately go on the attack mode, just like those chickens in the pen.  It's not that they want to eat it, it's that they want to kill it.

This is a precious gift God has BIRTHED in us.  It's become a part of who we are.  Our identity has been transformed because of it.  Why "wouldn't" we want to celebrate?  Why "wouldn't" we want to have a party and give our offspring over in marriage . . .incidentally the message of life is the offspring that was birthed in us . . .it's all about reproduction.  God redeemed the world .. . .let's party!!

[pilgrim1]

Thanks for those last two posts Nathan. I'm sure that God has spoken through you.
I only wish I understood how to 'party'. Becoming a hopeful URist has brought me more peace, more congruency and has probably saved my christian faith but there is still much suffering in this world.

God bless you my brother

[Nathan]

Learning how to party . . .hmm . . .it's llike learning how to walk.  It comes with maturity in who we are in Christ.  Maturity builds strength in our spiritual structure, our living bones, it brings balance, our flesh needs to be retrained.  But like a child, there is always this continual desire in us to want to do what we were actually created "to" do.  Our minds are bound by the laws of nature but our spirit has no such limitations.  So, rely on the desires of the spriit and take captive the mind . . .actually taking captive of the mind is actually what frees our spirit.  Letting our minds rule shackles our spirit. 

Pay unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, but give unto God what is God's .  . . let the mind rule in the natural realm but when in the spiritual realm, we must let our spirit take the helm and shift our mind back to the observation deck.

Entering into the celebration is like entering into rest. . . how?  How do you fall asleep at night?  Can you control when it comes or when it goes?  With a command? or a snap of a finger?  Of course not.  Sleep comes AFTER we prepare the atmosphere for it to happen.  I shut the lilghts off . . .I turn the electric blanket on (ima wuss).  I stretch myself out on a soft mattress . . .and personally, I turn a fan on . . .once the atmosphere is set, I wait.  I anticipate.  I expect.  I "yield". 

It's the same way spiritually.  It's not that we follow a recipe that causes us to enter into his Rest.  But if we set the atmosphere . . .fill your minds with heavenly thoughts . . .wait upon the Lord . . .listen for the still, small voice . . .set the atmosphere . . .then that which you wish to enter, will present itself to you and when it does, you'll already be "in" it.  Be it rest, be it peace, be it a crazy, party of celebrational levels.  These kingdom experiences don't come to those full of worry, warring, anxiety, strife . . .gotta let all of that go . . .prepare the atmosphere.

[pilgrim1]

Interesting. Cheers.