My testimony

[Michelle]

My name is Michelle. I'm 28 years old. When I was 14, I tried to build a relationship with God. I tried for two years, but nothing worked. I guess I just wasn't meant to be saved at that time. Every man in his own order. And I later came to realize that salvation is entirely of the Lord. I was going through a lot of horrible things and I wanted God to rescue me and take me away from all of it. I was going to a Catholic church back then. And most priests there were mysoginist men who said horrible things about girls and women; saying stuff like, women were guilty for everything, that God hated women and would torture them forever. I felt angry and hurt. Everywhere I went I was rejected and I didn't have any friend. Those priests are partially responsible for what happened afterward. I had: "God hates women" rammed down my throat and since I kept hearing that, I ended up believing it. Angry and hurt, I decided to practice a matriarchal religion and I embraced Wicca. "There is nothing wrong with "white" magic", I thought, "and after all, if they hate women, they probably have prejudices against other religions." And I was angry and hurt because I really thought that God hated me and wanted nothing more in life than to torture me forever. I wanted revenge, I wanted to really hurt Him because I was hurting. So I dabbled in the occult, embraced Wicca and worshipped pagan gods. Meanwhile Satan was after me and my family. He's been after me and my family for two decades, he totally hates me for some reason, but Jesus is protecting me. The devil was after me and my family, and dabbling in the occult only made things worse for my family. The quarrels, blaming and hatred only became worse. Horrified by what I had done to my family and to myself, I gave up Wicca and vowed not to get anywhere near anything occult ever again. But I didn't go back to God. I was convinced that He hated me and my family because that was what those hellfire-preachers had said. I went through difficult and horrible things for years. Then someone convinced me to give God a second chance. After that, I made a friend on Youtube (a Fundamentalist) who tried to get me saved. God saved me some time after that, but I just couldn't bring myself to trust Him, much less build a relationship with Him. I was too angry, too hurt, too distrustful. I had been bearing a grudge against Him for years. I couldn't help but think: "Why did you let my parents beat me up? Why did you let those guys in school beat me up and mollest me? I was an innocent and defendless kid! And why did you give me a control freak for a mother and a drug-addict for a father? How could I ever forgive you?" Some time after that, God healed me and taught me forgiveness and I forgave everyone who hurt me and I forgave Him. Because I had dabbled in the occult, I often was under demonic spiritual oppression and my Fundamentalist friend, preaching hellfire was not helping. I constantly was in a state of emotional turmoil, depression, anxiety, paranoia, even had suicidal thoughts. My Fundamentalist friend was trying to convince me that God loved me, all the while telling me that I could lose my salvation and end up being tortured in hell forever. Sometimes, he was very kind, but at other times, he just seemed so cold-hearted. When we first became friends on Youtube, He had a sense of humour, but he changed so much in the last few months that I barely recognize him.

Since I was oppressed by evil spirits, he told me to contact a deliverance pastor, but my location made it difficult to find a pastor whose beliefs didn't contradict mine, I didn't want to get into more trouble with God. But I soon realized that God could deliver a person way better than any pastor. I practiced self-deliverance and renounced all ties with the occult and idolatry, and God delivered me. After that, I started to really feel compassion and love for people, even though I didn't know what love was since I had never been loved. I spent countless time on the Internet, day and night, begging people to get saved. Due to my location and impossibility to travel because I can't work for health reasons and I have a tight budget, I can hardly minister to anyone outside the Internet. So I spent countless time on the Internet, begging people to get saved from eternal wrath and endless torture, but I was labelled a nutcase and people didn't want to have anything to do with me or "my sick, evil God". Yes, guilty of hellfire-preaching. I was convinced that if I didn't beg people to get saved day and night, they would be tortured in hell forever and it would be all my fault. I was constantly in turmoil, fear, anxiety, depression, and sorrowful. I would get down on my knees every evening, sobbing and begging God to take me instead of those billions of souls, that I would very gladly go to eternal torture and endless pain if it meant that those billions of people would go to heaven, to everlasting peace and happiness, including my unsaved mother and sister. Not that I wanted to diminish Jesus' sacrifice, but I was willing to sacrifice myself for those billions of people and thought that maybe, He would be moved and save those billions of people in exchange for my soul suffering in hell forever. God had me right where He wanted me. I had finally learned to love, I wanted the whole human race saved and couldn't bear the thought of a single soul being eternally tortured and forever miserable. I had been begging people to get saved for months and nothing was working. I had not brought a single soul to Him, to salvation and I would learn later on that salvation is entirely of the Lord. But at that moment, I experienced the same thing Gary did. I've had it, I just wanted God to kill me. Except, I wanted to die so bad because I just couldn't take it anymore that I told God that if He didn't kill me, I would do it myself. But He had me right where He wanted me. I had finally learned to love, learned selflessness, had deep concern for everyone. The work of the Holy Spirit in me had produced much fruit.

I couldn't take it anymore and I wanted to kill myself, but Jesus stopped me and gave me a revelation. The revelation of truth. He told me: "Think for yourself. Search and study everything the church and man told you not to and find out the real meaning behind it all." I was filled with His love to overflow and His peace that passes all understanding. I started doing research on the doctrine of hell and that's how I found TM. I came across Chris Moyer's testimony, which resambles mine. I had the same concern and I too thought that God would have to create a huge deception-memory wipe thing to conceal the torture of billions and risk a major rebellion in heaven, losing the love of everyone. And the more I thought about it, the more it didn't make sense to me. Why would God's plan be to lose everyone?

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html

After that, I started studying the TM material and embraced Christian Universalism. God clearly told me that eventually, everyone will be saved, without exception. I wanted to share the truly Good News with my Youtube Fundamentalist friend (my only friend), but he didn't like what I was saying. He called me a "New Age freak", a "wolf" and a "heretic"  :mshock:, told me that he would go against Christian Universalism and everyone who taught it, with his website. He also said he would cut me loose and put an end to our friendship. The strangest thing is, he did neither of those things. I checked his website. There's nothing about Christian Universalism there. And he's still answering my messages. Is it possible that deep down, he knows that Universal Salvation is the truth, but for some reason, can't bring himself to embrace it? Despite all the material I sent him, he just refuse to believe it, much less study it. Jesus recently told me to let go, to completely drop the subject and to discuss other things with my friend, but it's extremely difficult for me to do so, because I really care about my friend and I wish I could share all this with him. Despite what my friend put me through at times, he comforted me at others and he was there for me when I had no one else to talk to. He was endoctrinated and brainwashed like countless others. He is my precious friend and my beloved brother in Christ. I care about him and love him very much. I pray for Thomas everyday. Please, pray for him too. Prayer much needed.  :sigh:

Michelle. 

[shawn]

Michelle, it's wonderful to have you here.  Your testimony is very moving.  As for your friend, you have to understand that with some Christians, their fear of hell is so deep and seeded throughout their being.  It prevents them from learning, listening to anything other than what they have been taught by men.  Fear blocks the voice of the Holy Spirit and they become locked in a spiritual prison.  I believe in relationship over doctrine.  I don't push my beliefs on anyone.  But, if I sense that someone is ready, I share. 

I look foward to your future posts.  I'm sure you will make many new friends here.   :cloud9:

[Aleax]

 :welcome: :newb: :Urock:

[AJ]

Michelle,
What a testimony.  You are exactly where the Master wants you.
Understand that there are many more steps...in your journey.
Keep your eye on the prize...the Glory of God.
Be willing to be stretched even more....yes, it may seem even painful...but OH, so necessary.


1.1.11 - I found the following site and have read many of the messages - I know that it has enhanced my spiritual walk tremendously.
There were over 1500 (messages/prophecies) given to a group of Christian believers living in England, between 1920's and 1950's.
They were recorded by someone on shorthand... and then typed up...and then read back to the group to get a common consensus that
it was accurate to the best of their ability.


http://www.christianspiritualism.org/messages/zodiactable.htm


A small lamp for the Master,
Allen S.

[Michelle]

Thanks, Shawn. He said that he wasn't afraid of anything and that he didn't care if he lived or died. He really doesn't seem to care about anything anymore. Sometimes, he's just so cold-hearted that I don't recognize him anymore. He said that the people who are killed in a war, it's their judgement and he said that God is only taking out the bad seed. He's talking about people as if they were nothing but vermins and then he says that he's concerned about their souls. He accused me of leading people into hell by preaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ and he said that God had a special torment in store for "those heretics". Do you think getting involved with the army/Marine can do this to a man?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/27/101219.shtml

http://snardfarker.ning.com/profile/ThomasGambill

All he ever do now is talk about the Illuminati plots, the New World Order and the end of the world. This is so unhealthy. And I just keep asking myself: "What can I do to help my friend? I just hate to see him like that." I know a Christian Universalist is supposed to love her enemies, but the government did a lot of damage to many people, including my friend. I'm very worried about him and I would do anything, absolutely anything to see him change. I pray for him, but I don't see any change. I try to talk to him and reason with him, but it doesn't work. He's convinced that 99% of the whole human race will roast in hell forever and that the Christian Universalists are spreading lies because "they twist the scriptures". Much prayer needed. It'll take a miracle... 

[thinktank]

I think I know where he comes from. He might think life is a piece of "$£%£ and so shuts himself out of pain and misery by shutting down his emotions. He might need to be reminded of the good things in life, and be willing to accept them. A woman is good medicine for a mans dead emotions, he might need a girlfriend.

[jabcat]

Bless you Michelle, and welcome here.  You are among brothers and sisters gathering in Jesus' name.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.  Mt. 11:29

Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.  Jn. 14:27

[thinktank]

Somehow I missed you first post. Welcome to Tent, it sounds like you have had a tough time, you might be in good company here.

[Michelle]

I think I know where he comes from. He might think life is a piece of "$£%£ and so shuts himself out of pain and misery by shutting down his emotions. He might need to be reminded of the good things in life, and be willing to accept them. A woman is good medicine for a mans dead emotions, he might need a girlfriend.

Yeah, I think you're right. I too thought that life was a piece of $£%£, but it made me more human, not emotionally dead. Of course, I never got involved with the army/Marine. He said it was the will of God, but I don't believe a word of it. Jesus knows what the army/Marine can do to a man. I seriously doubt Jesus would ask a man to get involved in war, violence and bloodshed. I don't know if he ever killed anyone and I don't need to know. Whatever he did is in the past and if Jesus doesn't condemn him, why should I? He's my friend and I'm in no position to judge anyone. No one is in a position to judge anyone. Jesus said about the adulterous woman, if you never sinned, cast her a stone. Everyone sinned and came out short of the glory of God. And whatever he did in the past or is doing now doesn't change my love for him. We were made in the image of God and God is love. Love is not something we do or offer, it is our identity, it is what we are. We are love. I suggest to everyone on this forum to read the book: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. It's definitely about Universal Restoration and it's a Best Seller. Well, Thinktank, as a friend, I really wish I could remind him of the good things in life and bring him to accept them. It's not like I didn't try. There are limits to what an Internet friend can do. As for a woman, in the romantic sense of the word, he's divorced, so as long as his ex-wife is still alive, he cannot remarry or he'll get in trouble with God. I'm very worried about him. I hope he's okay. All I can do is entrust him to my beloved Master and keep praying. Any attempt to change my friend's mind fails and is disobedience to the Master, since He told me to drop it. God, this is killing me. Letting go of someone I love and care about is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And whenever I try to discuss anything else than religion with him, he ignores me. He didn't emailed me not once in the last three days. I'm worried. If only there was something I could do...

[shawn]

Thanks, Shawn. He said that he wasn't afraid of anything and that he didn't care if he lived or died. He really doesn't seem to care about anything anymore. Sometimes, he's just so cold-hearted that I don't recognize him anymore. He said that the people who are killed in a war, it's their judgement and he said that God is only taking out the bad seed. He's talking about people as if they were nothing but vermins and then he says that he's concerned about their souls. He accused me of leading people into hell by preaching the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ and he said that God had a special torment in store for "those heretics". Do you think getting involved with the army/Marine can do this to a man?

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/9/27/101219.shtml

http://snardfarker.ning.com/profile/ThomasGambill

All he ever do now is talk about the Illuminati plots, the New World Order and the end of the world. This is so unhealthy. And I just keep asking myself: "What can I do to help my friend? I just hate to see him like that." I know a Christian Universalist is supposed to love her enemies, but the government did a lot of damage to many people, including my friend. I'm very worried about him and I would do anything, absolutely anything to see him change. I pray for him, but I don't see any change. I try to talk to him and reason with him, but it doesn't work. He's convinced that 99% of the whole human race will roast in hell forever and that the Christian Universalists are spreading lies because "they twist the scriptures". Much prayer needed. It'll take a miracle...

Some Fundamentalists really struggle with their belief system.  They force it to the back burner because they believe it's all or nothing.  Either they must give up their faith or leave unresolved issues in the hidden places.  When faced with new knowledge some are open minded, and some because of fear (being a heretic...going to hell) won't look at the information staring at them in the face.  Then there are others who have some spiritual health issues.  I hate to sound judgmental but it's hard for me to wrap my mind around anyone (of healthy mind and spirit) who can be flippant about the torture or seperation of the majority of mankind for eternity.  Interacting with these individuals takes a strength of spirit and mind that many of us do not have.

I try to surround myself with people like the ones here at tent.  Why?  Because, we are of the same spirit.  We all want the salvation of all mankind.  When we surround ourselves with health, we are more likely to be healthy.  I am skeptical but open minded by nature.  I am curious and willing to study out.  But, I am also hard to persuade.  My spirit instantly accepted UR as truth.  My mind lagged behind for quite awhile.  I had to study it out.  I will say after looking into UR for two years, it's the only stance that makes sense to me.

We will know them by their fruit.  It tells alot about the accuracy of one's doctrine.  Does our doctrine seperate us from our fellow man?  Does it form a callous over our hearts?  Does it force us to abandon reason and common sense (which are God given even though they are limited in the natural)?  Does our doctrine gel with agape, mercy, grace and the immense sacrifice of Christ?  Is it cohesive with the knowledge of God's desire?  If God wants to save all of mankind, who can stop his hand?  Man?  Satan?  If God must burn, seperate most of his creation for eternity...is that victory?  Does our doctrine bring us peace, how about closer to God?

I have looked at the fruit of UR in my life.  God is working, moving, and I am seeing his hand in my life in amazing ways.  I didn't see this kind of movement, freedom or peace when I believed in ET (if I ever really did).  If UR is the work of satan why is it bringing me closer to God?  My spirit confirms it's validity but each have to have the Holy Spirit work it out for them.  Your friend will be no different.  Each to their own season.

[lomarah]

Hey Michelle, so glad to have you! Just wondering, where abouts in Canada are you? It's a big country and I keep hoping to find someone like minded here in Nova Scotia.

[Michelle]

"I hate to sound judgmental but it's hard for me to wrap my mind around anyone (of healthy mind and spirit) who can be flippant about the torture or seperation of the majority of mankind for eternity.  Interacting with these individuals takes a strength of spirit and mind that many of us do not have."

Because you can't do it in your own strength, Shawn. You can only do it with the strength and love of Jesus.

"I try to surround myself with people like the ones here at tent.  Why?  Because, we are of the same spirit.  We all want the salvation of all mankind.  When we surround ourselves with health, we are more likely to be healthy."

:sigh: Shawn, Shawn, Shawn... You're not getting it. Those people need love. Love is not something we choose. We just love. And we are love. You were made in the image of God and God is love. You might've forgotten, but love is your identity, it is what you are, not something you do or offer. What you do or offer is not love, only the result of love. Read: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. You will not regret it. There are many of Jesus' teachings in that book. It is definitely about UR and it is a Best Seller. Jesus is clearly speaking to us through that book. I wish Gary would read it and add it to the TM's booklist. I will soon send him a message about that. Everyone on this forum should read that book.

"My spirit instantly accepted UR as truth.  My mind lagged behind for quite awhile.  I had to study it out.  I will say after looking into UR for two years, it's the only stance that makes sense to me."

Yeah, same for me. I instantly accepted it as truth. I just knew it was a revelation from Jesus Himself. It's been about two weeks now. And for the first time of my life, I felt great inner peace. Before I became a Christian Universalist, I had visions from God. In the first one, I saw a pair of shackled hands. And then I saw the shackles unlock and fall to the ground. Whoever that person was, that person was free. Then, I had another vision some time after that. In that vision, I saw a man covered in chains, on his hands and knees and completely hopeless. I asked guidance from the Holy Spirit in interpreting that dream and I found out that the man (human) was me and he had been freed. After that, I had a dream in which people kept saying: "Fourth nine eleven" (CUs?). I was terrified to death back then and I thought it was some kind of vision about the end of the world. Some time after I became a Christian Universalist, I watched one of Gary's videos and couldn't believe my ears.

1 Timothy "4:9-11" (FOUR NINE ELEVEN) This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.

I didn't get the message when I received it (probably wasn't supposed to at that time), but as soon as I heard that verse, I knew right away that my dream really was about that verse.

"Does our doctrine seperate us from our fellow man?  Does it form a callous over our hearts?  Does it force us to abandon reason and common sense (which are God given even though they are limited in the natural)?  Does our doctrine gel with agape, mercy, grace and the immense sacrifice of Christ?  Is it cohesive with the knowledge of God's desire?  If God wants to save all of mankind, who can stop his hand?  Man?  Satan?  If God must burn, seperate most of his creation for eternity...is that victory?  Does our doctrine bring us peace, how about closer to God?"

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. And Christian Universalist manifest more fruit of the Holy Spirit and actually love all mankind through Jesus. I tried to explain that to my Fundamentalist ET friend. I also told him that Christian Universalism wasn't a license to sin, because once you know that Jesus will save all mankind, you just love Him so much for everything He is and everything He does that you just want to please Him. He said that this wonderful, perfect love I was filled with came from Satan who was trying to deceive me and that all scriptures I was giving him were false because I was "twisting them". He's not making any sense. :sigh: He's totally paranoid. He thinks the New World Order Satanists are behind Christian Universalism to usher in a one world religion and a one world governement with the Antichrist at its head. May God help him to see more clearly into His plan. I tried to explain those things to him but he won't listen. I told him that just as Adam and Eve represented the whole of mankind, and those who crucified Jesus represented the whole of mankind, so does the Antichrist. All those who are still unsaved and all those walking in the flesh, being selfish, self-righteous and hypocritical are antichrists. The carnal mind is enmity with God. There is no such thing as an actual Antichrist. It's antichrists, plural. The Antichrist of the Bible represents the whole of mankind. We were all antichrists and some of us still are to a higher or lesser degree, but those who are in Christ have their sin washed away by His blood upon repentance. The carnal mind that still "govern" some men is enmity against God aka antichrist. That too was a revelation from the Holy Spirit, by the way. I pray that my friend will come to understand that...

"I have looked at the fruit of UR in my life. God is working, moving, and I am seeing his hand in my life in amazing ways. I didn't see this kind of movement, freedom or peace when I believed in ET (if I ever really did)."

Same thing for me...

"If UR is the work of satan why is it bringing me closer to God?"

That's what I said to my Fundamentalist friend, but he said that an impostor, some kind of fake Jesus, some ascended master/fallen angel was walking around posing as Jesus, but calling himself Sonanda, brainwashing people into New Age religion. I told him that even though that was true, Christian Universalists and TM had nothing to do with New Age religion and some fake god. He didn't believe me, even though I sent him one of Gary's article entitled: "Refutation, rebuttal, exposition and explanation of Universalism".

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-refuted.htm 

"My spirit confirms it's validity but each have to have the Holy Spirit work it out for them.  Your friend will be no different.  Each to their own season."

Yeah. I just hope for his sake that it will be in this life. According to Gary, in the article above, not everyone will be saved in this life, and as far as I'm concerned, those who are not saved in this life live empty and meaningless lives. Of course, being saved in the life is better than not being saved at all, but going through this whole actual life, living an empty, meaningless life sucks and I feel kinda sad for them. Not so long, I myself thought that I was doomed to live an empty, meaningless life, because whatever I was trying to do, it just didn't work. Back when I was a Damnationist, I was convinced that I was useless and doomed to live an empty, meaningless life. Now, even though I don't really have a social life outside the Internet, even though I can't work for health reasons, even though I have an Asperger Syndrome (I have been rejected because of that countless times due to prejudices), even though I struggle with one or two sin areas and even though I can't get the Fundamentalists to listen to me, I know that I am not useless, nor doomed to live an empty, meaningless life.

Thanks to Jesus and UR, I finally feel accepted and loved, despite my disability and imperfections and I now know that this life-poisoning disability serve some kind of purpose in God's perfect plan. I was not born like that for nothing and it's all worth since God's perfect plan is to have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That's the Fundamentalists' problem, they can't see the big picture. They claim that they do, but they really don't. Jesus revealed this to me, even before I read this article:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html

And I know that thanks to Jesus, I will be reunited with all the people I've ever loved in heaven, including all my presently unsaved family members, ex-friends and Thomas...

[Michelle]

Hey Michelle, so glad to have you! Just wondering, where abouts in Canada are you? It's a big country and I keep hoping to find someone like minded here in Nova Scotia.

I live in Montreal...

[Aleax]

But at that moment, I experienced the same thing Gary did. I've had it, I just wanted God to kill me. Except, I wanted to die so bad because I just couldn't take it anymore that I told God that if He didn't kill me, I would do it myself. But He had me right where He wanted me. I had finally learned to love, learned selflessness, had deep concern for everyone. The work of the Holy Spirit in me had produced much fruit.

I couldn't take it anymore and I wanted to kill myself, but Jesus stopped me and gave me a revelation. The revelation of truth. He told me: "Think for yourself. Search and study everything the church and man told you not to and find out the real meaning behind it all." I was filled with His love to overflow and His peace that passes all understanding. I started doing research on the doctrine of hell and that's how I found TM. I came across Chris Moyer's testimony, which resambles mine. I had the same concern and I too thought that God would have to create a huge deception-memory wipe thing to conceal the torture of billions and risk a major rebellion in heaven, losing the love of everyone. And the more I thought about it, the more it didn't make sense to me. Why would God's plan be to lose everyone?

http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html

I know of many people who have the exactly same experience. Just when they were ready to commit suicide over the endless hell doctrine, they discovered UR. Charles Slagle is a famous example, you might want to check his writings out if you already haven't.

http://www.sigler.org/slagle/

If eternal torchery really is true (I'm 99,9% sure it isn't) and all these people were actually deceived by Satan as the Fundies like to claim, then God is either weak or indifferent. He could've been there for all these agonizing children of his who came to UR in their darkest hours, but either he chose not to, or simply was less powerful than the Adversary who ended up deceiving them.

However, the Bible tells us God is Omnipotent and Love. I'd rather trust the Bible than the Fundies.  :cloud9:

[Michelle]

"Am I a heretic? Maybe. If believing that God is all powerful, all loving, wiser than His creation and perfectly willing and capable of saving all of His children makes me a heretic, sign me up."

http://www.thebeautifulheresy.com/

:thumbsup: I love that guy's motto!

*Raise hand* Heretic here and proud of it! :cloud9:
Does that make actual heresies look all right? Because that's not was I was aiming at. :sigh:

I am aiming at:

Stay true to the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, no matter what people say! And Hail King Jesus! :cloud9:

[Michelle]

"I know of many people who have the exactly same experience. Just when they were ready to commit suicide over the endless hell doctrine, they discovered UR. Charles Slagle is a famous example, you might want to check his writings out if you already haven't.

http://www.sigler.org/slagle/ "

I've read one of his books after watching one of Gary's videos ("Absolute assurance"). I will read some of his writings, one of these days. Maybe soon. I put it on my list. Right now, I'm busy studying the scholar's corner material. This is big and I have read half of it:

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

If you haven't read this one yet, you really should. It's a must read. Believe me, it explains a lot. Especially the already fulfilled prophecies of the Book of Revelation. Jesus was speaking only to the Jews, and some Fundies think It's about the end of the world. I'm not saying the end of the world will not be similar to what happened in Revelation (if there is such a thing as an end of the world. Transformation and purification of the planet is more like it. And the correctly translated word is "age". End of the "age".) Some Fundies really need to realize that the end of the "world" was mistranslated in their precious "inherant" King James Bible. No Bible is inherant, especially not english translations. I read from many Bibles and study scriptures from various Bibles, but I know there is no perfect Bible, that's why I let the Holy Spirit guide me into all truth whenever I study the scriptures.

Next, I'm going to study these:

http://www.tentmaker.org/topics/lawversusgrace.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/bible-index.htm

"However, the Bible tells us God is Omnipotent and Love. I'd rather trust the Bible than the Fundies."

I totally agree, even though I love my Fundy friend. I trust God to work in Him. When the Fundies read the Bible in the Spirit, they will know the truth...

And now, I'm on my way to pray and to read some of the "Bible threatening explained" article, then some Bible study (Philippians)... 

(PS) (You should read that one: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html )

[thinktank]

I think I know where he comes from. He might think life is a piece of "$£%£ and so shuts himself out of pain and misery by shutting down his emotions. He might need to be reminded of the good things in life, and be willing to accept them. A woman is good medicine for a mans dead emotions, he might need a girlfriend.

Yeah, I think you're right. I too thought that life was a piece of $£%£, but it made me more human, not emotionally dead. Of course, I never got involved with the army/Marine. He said it was the will of God, but I don't believe a word of it. Jesus knows what the army/Marine can do to a man. I seriously doubt Jesus would ask a man to get involved in war, violence and bloodshed. I don't know if he ever killed anyone and I don't need to know. Whatever he did is in the past and if Jesus doesn't condemn him, why should I? He's my friend and I'm in no position to judge anyone. No one is in a position to judge anyone. Jesus said about the adulterous woman, if you never sinned, cast her a stone. Everyone sinned and came out short of the glory of God. And whatever he did in the past or is doing now doesn't change my love for him. We were made in the image of God and God is love. Love is not something we do or offer, it is our identity, it is what we are. We are love. I suggest to everyone on this forum to read the book: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. It's definitely about Universal Restoration and it's a Best Seller. Well, Thinktank, as a friend, I really wish I could remind him of the good things in life and bring him to accept them. It's not like I didn't try. There are limits to what an Internet friend can do. As for a woman, in the romantic sense of the word, he's divorced, so as long as his ex-wife is still alive, he cannot remarry or he'll get in trouble with God. I'm very worried about him. I hope he's okay. All I can do is entrust him to my beloved Master and keep praying. Any attempt to change my friend's mind fails and is disobedience to the Master, since He told me to drop it. God, this is killing me. Letting go of someone I love and care about is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And whenever I try to discuss anything else than religion with him, he ignores me. He didn't emailed me not once in the last three days. I'm worried. If only there was something I could do...

He's very lucky to have a good friend like you to worry about him, not many have a friend like that. But I don't know why you are worrying that he has not emailed for 3 days, that is not very long, he might think you are to obsessive  :dontknow:.
I don't see why he can't remarry again though, as long as he meets the right woman, not sure what the bible says about marriage, it doesn't interest me that much, I'm sure there are plenty of views on it though.
As for joining the marines, someone got to keep the country safe. Without an army anyone can come in and pillage for resources etc.

[shawn]

Michelle, I'm not sure where you got that I believed we shouldn't love and help tortured, hurting souls.  And, I am certainly aware that we can only do so with the help of Christ.  I would never suggest otherwise.  But, let me say something, not all of us are in a place where we are healthy enough to bond ourselves with sick individuals.

If we are emotionally and spiritually fragile and we try to love and interact with an emotionally and spiritually abusive person, it won't end well.  It's kind of like an early alcoholic in recovery who wants to go to the local bars in order to help other alcoholics.  They are not ready and might find themselves downing a bottle.  It doesn't mean he/she can't love these people, but for a time he needs to do so from a distance.  But, there should come a time when he is healthy enough to work that twelth step.  He can go out and love, and help those who he initially had to avoid.  I hope that example makes sense to you.  If you are emotionally and spiritually fragile and you seek out individuals to "help" to "love" who are emotionally and spiritually abusive, it won't end well for you. 

If my advice is unsolicited or rubbing you the wrong way, just let me know.  I certainly don't want to offend.  I just see some very familiar themes that I have had to work through personally.  I was given the advice I am giving right now.  I was humbled by circumstances enough to listen to the advice and apply it.  It helped me.  Therefore, I give it out when I can. 

[jabcat]

I've enjoyed what you've had to say Shawn.

[shawn]

I've enjoyed what you've had to say Shawn.

I'm glad to hear it.   :nod:

[Michelle]

I think I know where he comes from. He might think life is a piece of "$£%£ and so shuts himself out of pain and misery by shutting down his emotions. He might need to be reminded of the good things in life, and be willing to accept them. A woman is good medicine for a mans dead emotions, he might need a girlfriend.

Yeah, I think you're right. I too thought that life was a piece of $£%£, but it made me more human, not emotionally dead. Of course, I never got involved with the army/Marine. He said it was the will of God, but I don't believe a word of it. Jesus knows what the army/Marine can do to a man. I seriously doubt Jesus would ask a man to get involved in war, violence and bloodshed. I don't know if he ever killed anyone and I don't need to know. Whatever he did is in the past and if Jesus doesn't condemn him, why should I? He's my friend and I'm in no position to judge anyone. No one is in a position to judge anyone. Jesus said about the adulterous woman, if you never sinned, cast her a stone. Everyone sinned and came out short of the glory of God. And whatever he did in the past or is doing now doesn't change my love for him. We were made in the image of God and God is love. Love is not something we do or offer, it is our identity, it is what we are. We are love. I suggest to everyone on this forum to read the book: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. It's definitely about Universal Restoration and it's a Best Seller. Well, Thinktank, as a friend, I really wish I could remind him of the good things in life and bring him to accept them. It's not like I didn't try. There are limits to what an Internet friend can do. As for a woman, in the romantic sense of the word, he's divorced, so as long as his ex-wife is still alive, he cannot remarry or he'll get in trouble with God. I'm very worried about him. I hope he's okay. All I can do is entrust him to my beloved Master and keep praying. Any attempt to change my friend's mind fails and is disobedience to the Master, since He told me to drop it. God, this is killing me. Letting go of someone I love and care about is the hardest thing I've ever had to do. And whenever I try to discuss anything else than religion with him, he ignores me. He didn't emailed me not once in the last three days. I'm worried. If only there was something I could do...

He's very lucky to have a good friend like you to worry about him, not many have a friend like that. But I don't know why you are worrying that he has not emailed for 3 days, that is not very long, he might think you are to obsessive  :dontknow:.
I don't see why he can't remarry again though, as long as he meets the right woman, not sure what the bible says about marriage, it doesn't interest me that much, I'm sure there are plenty of views on it though.
As for joining the marines, someone got to keep the country safe. Without an army anyone can come in and pillage for resources etc.

I can be obssessive when I am worried. And he's doing a lot of harm to himself and others with the false doctrine of "eternal torment". I know because I was one of his victims. But I forgave him, not only because he's my friend but also because he's been endoctrinated and brainwashed like countless others. All I can do is let the Lord work...

:teaching:

Marriage and remarriage is not about views, it's about what the Bible says and what God wants. We do what God says, not what we want. And even if marriage doesn't interest you that much (it doesn't interest me either, I love being single and after many abuses I'm not interest in getting involved with a man), you should take an interest to what the Bible has to say about it because if you minister to people or they come to you for answers, then you can give them biblical answers. Everyone should take an interest in everything the Bible has to say about well, everything. The Bible says that when a man is divorced, he cannot remarry as long as his ex-wife is still alive. Same thing for a divorced woman. She cannot remarry as long as her ex-husband is still alive. To remarry while your ex-spouse is still alive is to commit adultery and to marry a divorced person is to commit adultery. People are not to separate what God has joined together. Marriage is for life, for better and for worst. They become one flesh. And if a man sleeps with a divorced woman, whether he's married or not, he commits the sin of fornication. Divorce causes a whole lot of trouble. That's why one should seriously think before he marry someone.

Bible verses:

Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Matt 19:6-9 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

In addition to fornication, physical and sexual abuse is also a good enough reason to divorce. More and more people today see how evil abuse is and agree that it destroys lives, therefore it must be stopped. A woman who is physically and sexually abuse MUST divorce her husband or else, she will be damaged for life, maybe even killed. She is in serious physical, mental and spiritual danger. Also, the scriptures say that He will destroy those who allow His temple (our bodies) to be defiled (that includes putting up with physical and sexual violence. Putting up with it is agreeing to it)...

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mark 10:11-12 [Jesus] answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

Luke 16:18 Jesus is quoted again, saying, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Romans 7:2-3 The apostle Paul taught that "...by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man."

1 Corinthians 7:10-13, 27, 39 The apostle Paul's teaching continues: "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him ... [27] Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife ... [39] A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to marry anyone she wishes, but he must belong to the Lord."

If one of the spouses commits the sin of fornication, the other spouse can divorce but is not under obligation to do so...

Taken from jimfenney.org:

"Now, before leaving the discussion of Christian divorce and remarriage because of porneia, a word of caution is in order. The one who has secured (or is in the process of securing) a biblical divorce for his or her spouse's infidelity should exercise much restraint and deliberation before entering into another marriage. Here are three important reasons for this carefulness:

1. This person, although innocent of the actual adultery committed by his/her spouse, may have, through other nonbiblical conduct or characteristics, contributed at least indirectly to the breakdown of the marriage. Such a divorced person should seek counsel from a qualified pastor or church elder to effect biblical change in his or her own life before even considering undertaking another marriage.

2. There is a prevailing biblical exhortation to "forgive one another," as in Ephesians 4:32 and Colossians 3:13. It is entirely biblical for the offended party to seek God diligently for the grace to forgive the adulterous spouse.

3. Ideally, the optimum solution is reconciliation and restoration of the marriage. In a remarkable passage in Jeremiah 3:8-20, God said that "Israel [had] committed adultery [and God] had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce." Yet God cried out to Israel to repent and turn back to Him, and declared that He would receive her back. Through prayer and competent counsel, it is possible for at least some marriages shattered by adultery to be brought to a place of repentance, forgiveness, and restoration.

Even by following all three of the above recommendations, the offended spouse may not necessarily see reconciliation occur. For example, the adulterous spouse may have already married someone else. But the innocent spouse, by taking the action above, keeps himself and his life in a biblical framework and may then conscientiously go about to reconstruct his life. And that rebuilding includes the possibility of entering into another marriage with God's approval."

1 Corinthians 7:10-14 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

There's also the case of a believer/unbeliever married couples...

From jimfenney.org:

"the inspired writer Paul declared:

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

This is called by some "the Pauline privilege." Jesus earlier gave one exception to the prevailing indissolubility of marriage. That exception was for infidelity. Here the apostle Paul gives a second exception — if a saved man or woman has an unsaved spouse who leaves the Christian. The Greek word here for "leaves" is chorizo, the same word Jesus used for "put asunder" when speaking of divorce in Matthew 19:6.

What Paul is declaring is this: A Christian brother or sister is "not under bondage" (KJV) when the unbeliever divorces the believer.

The Greek word for "not under bondage" in this passage, according to both "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance" and "The New Englishman's Greek Concordance," is from a word that is translated as "bound" in Romans 7:2 ("The woman which hath an husband is bound by the law") and in 1 Corinthians 7:27 ("bound unto a wife"). It is critically important to see that the seemingly permanent-for-life marriage bond of these latter scriptures is broken — "not under bondage" — when the unbelieving spouse divorces the believer."

From Frank Caw.com:

"Moreover, common sense logical AND OTHER BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES OBVIOUSLY REQUIRE US TO ADD VIOLENCE AND HEALTH-OR-LIFE THREATENING ABUSE TO OUR LIST OF MORAL JUSTIFICATION BECAUSE SUCH EVIL ACTIVITIES ARE ALWAYS PROHIBITED FOR EVERYONE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR MARITAL STATUS IN LIFE."

"if both husband and wife are true Christian believers, and one of them leaves the other, then both of them are commanded to remain in a "separated" condition unless they decide to reconcile and reunite. Under such circumstances, neither believer has the biblical right to seek a divorce from the other believer unless extreme conditions such as fornication OR ABUSE are involved."

"For that reason, God generally forbids divorce for married Christian couples, and that prohibition should not be violated unless extreme conditions such as fornication OR ABUSE are involved."

"Thus, the apostle Paul was saying that even though ancient Roman Law considered married couples to be divorced as soon as they separated for any reason, as far as God's Moral Law was concerned, Christian couples who separated were still married, and should reconcile and reunite with each other if at all possible unless extreme conditions such as fornication OR ABUSE were involved."

"Accordingly, in those instances where our health or life truly is threatened by physical or psychological violence from our spouse, the moral laws of self-preservation and self-defense — rights which are derived from the very right to life itself — supercede the moral law of marriage, and we should get a divorce from our abusive and violent spouse as quickly as possible. (Compare: Matthew 10:23; Exodus 21:26-27; etc.)"

"But, on the other hand, realistic threats to our health or life, such as physical beatings or systematic patterns of mental torture designed to destroy or incapacitate us, are legitimate reasons for leaving a spouse and subsequently seeking a divorce from them.

Of course, only the victims of psychological abuse can decide, honestly, if the constant barrage of invective and hatred by their spouse rises to a level of mental cruelty that seriously jeopardizes their emotional and physical health.

Because it is one thing to engage in heated arguments or disputes with your spouse occasionally, but quite another matter if your spouse attacks you verbally — unmercifully, continually — so that you always are near your breaking point.

In such instances, a divorce is biblically justified because the higher moral/biblical values of survival and self-defense take priority over the lower moral/biblical value that prohibits divorce.

Hence, biblical divorces are not limited to just cases of spousal fornication, including adultery; they also are justified in clear, obvious cases involving a dangerous level of psychological and/or physical abuse!"

"However, aside from the fact the Bible does not teach such a thing, the stark reality in life is that violent, abusive people seldom, if ever, suddenly reform their behavior unless they receive a miraculous transformation through the saving grace of Christ Jesus, our Lord God and Saviour.

Therefore, it is not fair to condemn the victim of abuse to a lifetime of constant fear, threats, danger, loneliness, and frustration simply because they had the misfortune or poor judgment to marry such an evil, violent person.

For God has not called us to be pitiful, abused doormats, but to life, and life abundantly. (John 10:10).

This scriptural point is completely harmonious with the teaching in the epistles that just as Christ is head of the church, so likewise should the husband be the head (i.e., spiritual leader) of his wife (Eph. 5:23) while respecting her right to free will and equal value and dignity as a human being (Gal. 3:28).

Moreover, the husband should love and cherish his wife and family just as Christ loves and cherishes the church body of believers. (Ephesians 5:23).

Accordingly, a proper biblical view of marriage precludes the violent, abusive relationship that so many modern marriages endure. (Compare: Matthew 10:23; Exodus 21:26-27; etc.)

Although God hates divorce (Jeremiah 3:1; Malachi 2:14-16; Mark 10:2-12), it is morally and scripturally justified under certain adverse conditions because a higher moral law always supercedes a lower moral law whenever it is impossible to comply with both of them."

http://www.frankcaw.com/divorce.html (in two parts. Don't hold me responsible if you read other articles on that website and you don't like what you read, I don't necessarily agree with their views either...)

[Michelle]

 :coffee2: :Book: :thinking:

I was up all night again, studying UR material...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

[Michelle]

Michelle, I'm not sure where you got that I believed we shouldn't love and help tortured, hurting souls.  And, I am certainly aware that we can only do so with the help of Christ.  I would never suggest otherwise.  But, let me say something, not all of us are in a place where we are healthy enough to bond ourselves with sick individuals.

If we are emotionally and spiritually fragile and we try to love and interact with an emotionally and spiritually abusive person, it won't end well.  It's kind of like an early alcoholic in recovery who wants to go to the local bars in order to help other alcoholics.  They are not ready and might find themselves downing a bottle.  It doesn't mean he/she can't love these people, but for a time he needs to do so from a distance.  But, there should come a time when he is healthy enough to work that twelth step.  He can go out and love, and help those who he initially had to avoid.  I hope that example makes sense to you.  If you are emotionally and spiritually fragile and you seek out individuals to "help" to "love" who are emotionally and spiritually abusive, it won't end well for you. 

If my advice is unsolicited or rubbing you the wrong way, just let me know.  I certainly don't want to offend.  I just see some very familiar themes that I have had to work through personally.  I was given the advice I am giving right now.  I was humbled by circumstances enough to listen to the advice and apply it.  It helped me.  Therefore, I give it out when I can.

I don't agree with you on this. I am emotionally and spiritually fragile right now. I've only became a Christian Universalist very recently. I love and interact with an emotionally and spiritually abusive person and whether it ends well or not, I trust Jesus to put the pieces back together. He did it in the past, why wouldn't He do it again? What happened to my friend wasn't his fault. The government and the Church did this to him. As for loving those people from a distance, you can hardly be more distant than communication over the Internet. I never met him. He lives in Georgia, USA, I live In Montreal, Canada. But we've been talking over the Internet for months and our friendship is just as precious to me as if we had been friends in life outside the Internet. You say that if I am emotionally and spiritual fragile and seek out individuals to "help" to "love" who are emotionally and spiritually abusive, it won't end well for me. I am well aware of that. But I don't seek out individuals to "help" to "love" who are emotionally and spiritually abusive. Believe me. My friend is an exception. I just won't give up on him, I won't. And it's not like I can put even more distance between us. We only write to each other. I told Him that Jesus told me to drop it and not talk about UR with him. Now, I'm trying to get him to change the subject. He says I should put an end to any relationship with Tentmaker because "they lie about the KJV and it is the innerant Word of God." :sigh: The poor man has been so endoctrinated and brainwashed that he just won't study these things for himself. And it seems that he can't discuss anything else than religion. Even though he didn't put an end to our friendship, he considers me a heretic and a traitor. And soon, some of you will consider me a traitor. I'm so sick of all that Montagues/Capulets thing. So sick and so tired of it. Can denominations go through one damn day without tearing each others apart? He threatened to go after Gary and "the heretics" and expose Christian Universalism on his website. So far, he didn't do it. That led me to believe that deep down, he knew UR was the truth, but somehow just couldn't bring himself to embrace it. But I can't guarantee that he will not put his threat to execution. If he does, I will have to play mediator because I just can't choose. I can't and I won't. Does that make me a traitor in your eyes or anyone else's here? This war between denominations is so stupid. What this world need is more peacemakers. And that's what I want to be. Not just because I love my friend and care about him, but because this world seriously need some peacemakers. And if I want to be a peacemaker for Christ, maybe that's because He wants me to be one. I have learned that this kind of desire can only come from Him.  Jesus will overcome His enemies with love and He will use us to do that. I have no objection. So long as my life has a meaning and I help bring some good in this world... 

[lastpost]

"This war between denominations is so stupid. What this world need is more peacemakers"

Precisely. Where I come from I'm expected to agree with people on things we have in common such as God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit. When one "attacks" another, even if we know their version of truth falls well short of a loving God, we create enmity and have a reverse effect to what we wish.

The main thing I want others to know, from my understanding, is that even the most advanced spiritually know less then one percent of of one percent about the Love of God... that I do know :bigGrin:

What upsets me is when others bring the Love of God down to their own human level through dogmatic belief.