The Lake of Fire and the Cross

[Chris]

And just as a side note:

The reason that I began to look at the verse differently several years ago was because I could not reconcile Paul saying "THE DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise FIRST" with Jesus saying: "gather ye together FIRST THE TARES".

It's then that I started taking another look at everything associated with the resurrection of the dead and references to the first resurrection and the second death, etc.

If  Jesus said that the tares are gathered first, in the time of harvest, then why was I always being told the the righteous are resurrected first? I figured there must be a disconnect somewhere. And that is when I started looking into the "thousand years" and it's connection to both THE NIGHT ((and)) THE DAY.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the good wishes regarding my dad.   :HeartThrob:

**Add/edit - I'll look more indepth at that chapter later.  It sounds interesting. 

We could be splitting hairs, I don't know.  In some sense I could personally agree that all is "in" Christ.  Unless I'm misquoting, all is of and from/through Him, etc.  I just believe though that most will still need to bow and confess Him as Lord in the next age(s),  that those besides the ecclesia (saved in this age) will still need to be given faith to believe (each in his order/turn).  So according to my current understanding, in that sense, all are not as yet of the household of faith.    Depending on how one interprets some of the semantics, that may all fit together OK with what you're saying, I'm not sure.

I do know though that until/unless God shows me/convinces me otherwise, that I don't believe all are just "A-OK" right now (Pearson's doctrine of Inclusion for example) - and you personally may not believe or mean it that way either (again, semantics and even multiple layers of revelation and truth).  But I wanted to state that, as I see it as scriptural, as I'll probably back out of this particular discussion now or soon and let others have their say.   :bigGrin:

Take care, James. 

[Molly]

Chris, are you saying the first resurrection will be a world wide conversion of Gentiles to Christ?

Aren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?

Yes, partially.  But even Paul said it was only an ernest and looked forward to a complete resurrection.


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

[Chris]

Thanks for the good wishes regarding my dad.   :HeartThrob:

**Add/edit - I'll look more indepth at that chapter later.  It sounds interesting. 

We could be splitting hairs, I don't know.  In some sense I could personally agree that all is "in" Christ.  Unless I'm misquoting, all is of and from/through Him, etc.  I just believe though that most will still need to bow and confess Him as Lord in the next age(s),  that those besides the ecclesia (saved in this age) will still need to be given faith to believe (each in his order/turn).  So according to my current understanding, in that sense, all are not as yet of the household of faith.    Depending on how one interprets some of the semantics, that may all fit together OK with what you're saying, I'm not sure.

I do know though that until/unless God shows me/convinces me otherwise, that I don't believe all are just "A-OK" right now (Pearson's doctrine of Inclusion for example) - and you personally may not believe or mean it that way either (again, semantics and even multiple layers of revelation and truth).  But I wanted to state that, as I see it as scriptural, as I'll probably back out of this particular discussion now or soon and let others have their say.   :bigGrin:

Take care, James.

I'm not really sure what you are saying, especially about Pearson, but I wasn't saying that all believe only that all have been reconciled. We have to be baptized into Christ's death before we come to know the power of His resurrection. Those who have not yet come to the faith are "dead". Only those who believe have passed from death unto life. And even that is a process, as even babes are "yet carnal". Right?

[jabcat]

That's fine, that's a good clarification, thanks.

[Chris]

Chris, are you saying the first resurrection will be a world wide conversion of Gentiles to Christ?

No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that we have part in "the first resurrection" by coming to know the power of JESUS' resurrection.

Aren't believers already resurrected? Jesus he who lives and believes shall never die. Why would Paul need to comfort believers about the resurrection of other believers when the Lord himself said they shall never die?

Yes, partially.  But even Paul said it was only an ernest and looked forward to a complete resurrection.


Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise when we first believe, right?

As I understand it, THAT is "the earnest"  or "the firstfruits" of the spirit.

But when we first believe we are "babes" who are "yet carnal" and we still need to add to our faith, etc, etc and "go on unto perfection" (God willing), right?

So, yes, those who HAVE the earnest/firstfruits of the spirit WAIT FOR "the adoption of sons".  And we receive "the adoption of sons" by having Christ formed in us, which is how we are "delivered of the child" (just as Jesus told his disciples they would need to be and just as Paul said he was). 

Then we are "no more children" (tossed to and fro) but "sons". And when that which is perfect is come (Christ in us) "then that which is in part shall be done away".


1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



There is a difference (spiritually) between "a child" and "a son".




Gal 4:1  Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

Gal 4:2  But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Gal 4:3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Gal 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

[Molly]

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A son. Yes
An heir. Yes

But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?

Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.

Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection?  Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles?  [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

[PaoloNuevo]

The Second Death would probably have the same power that leads believers today to deny themselves and carry their cross daily to eventually live to Christ...
Paola

So that means that the lof in their view is a wrapped up sentence of basically saying the gospel continues for the unsaved.
In other words, just as the elect in this age take up the cross and must deny their carnal desires and take up righteousness, that the non elect will also be resurected and have to go through the same thing?

I find this idea interesting and have explored it myself. This idea does ring well with the old testament, because I have yet to find any old testament prophecies about a lake of fire judgment, but yet have found verses where the unsaved are expected to go to jerusalem and pay respect to the king, otherwise God will destroy them, this event must either be the millenium, which I believe it is, or it could in fact stretch beyond the millenium, (remember hat lof takes place after the millenium)which means that the lof could be another way of saying, "lets wrap this gospel up as quick as we can, otherwise we will be writing the story forever, as it takes ages for all people to be saved, so lets just say throw them in the fire forever and ever and if anyone complains we'll just say 'in a sense it is true, they are forever being saved throughout generations for the multibillions of men that need to be saved through the fire of God that was prophecied by malachi"

Well, thinktank... God does use tribulation and servitude to correct ppl, He's done it to Israel and I'm sure the LOF might be a similar tribulation or "wrath"... but nothing cruel and unusual like the carnal imaginations of perdition lovers would think up.

[eaglesway]

Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
(Gal 4:1)

Every child is a son(heir) as far as legal status (To all those who received Him He gave the right to become sons of God Jn 1). The adoption is a matter of the child becoming a son in terms of placement over the Father's estate.  Given the "keys to the kingdom". Papa don't give the keys to babies. Its ok to be a baby(if you are newborn), but the process is to become a son- walking like a son... transformed into His likeness in character and conduct. That happens as we perservere under trial. The ultimate fulfillment is the resurrection from the dead at the parousia/epiphania of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the overcomers.

To wit, the redemption of our bodies......

Jesus was "declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection of the dead"(Romans 1:4)

We have received the earnest of our inheritance, a down payment guaranteeing the purchased possession, but...

"You have need of endurance so that after you have done the will of God you may receive what was promised, For my righteous one will live by faith and if he shrink back my soul will have no pleasure in Him"

Sonship is for the overcomers, those who abide in Christ, enduring to the end

Blessed is the one who endures under trial for after he has overcome he will recieve the crown of life- James

Rev 2:10  'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

In this life, all we who trust in Christ are sons of God. But some are babes and children "no different than a slave" in practice because they cannot be trusted with the keys to Fathers house, because they are still carnal(centered in the self).

"If any man cleanse himself from these he will be a vessel fit for the Masters use"

All those who are "led by the Spirit" are sons in practice, mature, trustworthy.

until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
(Eph 4:13-14)

"I wrote to you little children, because your sins are forgiven. I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil one."

In the outer court there is plenty of blood, sacrifices for the sins of the children. Before we enter the holy place for worship in spirit and truth we have to wash at the door at the bronze laver, it is seated on bronze oxen... the oxen symbolic of the will, "Nevertheless not my will but yours be done" - the overcoming cry of sons. This is the beginning of priesthood, service, sonship.

At the first resurrection all the overcomers, who joined Jesus in the sacrifice of their own wills (If anyone would be my disciple let the take up their cross) will "be declared to be sons of God by the resurrection of the dead". They will be those who walked as sons in their stewardship on earth, laying down their lives.

"He who overcomes will inherit all things and  I will be a Father to him and he will be my son"(Rev 21:17)

And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
(Col 1:21-23)

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11

[Nathan]

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A son. Yes
An heir. Yes

But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?

Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.

Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection?  Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles?  [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This is where "beohold all things become as new" comes into play.  The "elements" Galatians speaks of is not natural elements of the earth, but it's pertaining to religious frameworks . . .the origin of a rule or law.  The law is still there, but if your a child, the law has the appearance as something of control, rebuke even.  But when you become a son, the law is the same law, but now you have a new perspective on it's purpose.  Rather than a rebuke, I now see the purpose of the law as a bridge to get man from the Old Covenant into the New.  And once Christ appeared "as" the New, the Old was no longer necessary to contend with.  .. . the mount of transfiguration proclaims this same thing . . .it's no longer necessary to build honor to the law (Moses) or to the prophets (Elijah) but now Christ is the only sound we need to identify and harmonize with. 

And in this new perspective, we then have to go back and retrain our brain in these passages like the one we've been looking at in Thessalonians . . .we've been programmed that it's talkiong about the rapture of the church . .dead in Christ shall rise first . . .then those who are alive and remain . . .looking at that now, it doesn't make that much sense . . .remain from what?  And isnt' the belief of the rapture supposed to be that it's going to happen in a blink of an eye?  Yet here, there's an order . . .they want it both ways.

[eaglesway]

This is where "beohold all things become as new" comes into play.  The "elements" Galatians speaks of is not natural elements of the earth, but it's pertaining to religious frameworks . . .the origin of a rule or law.  The law is still there, but if your a child, the law has the appearance as something of control, rebuke even.  But when you become a son, the law is the same law, but now you have a new perspective on it's purpose.  Rather than a rebuke, I now see the purpose of the law as a bridge to get man from the Old Covenant into the New.  And once Christ appeared "as" the New, the Old was no longer necessary to contend with.  .. . the mount of transfiguration proclaims this same thing . . .it's no longer necessary to build honor to the law (Moses) or to the prophets (Elijah) but now Christ is the only sound we need to identify and harmonize with. 

And in this new perspective, we then have to go back and retrain our brain in these passages like the one we've been looking at in Thessalonians . . .we've been programmed that it's talkiong about the rapture of the church . .dead in Christ shall rise first . . .then those who are alive and remain . . .looking at that now, it doesn't make that much sense . . .remain from what?  And isnt' the belief of the rapture supposed to be that it's going to happen in a blink of an eye?  Yet here, there's an order . . .they want it both ways.

I agree that the "elements" are the systems of the world including religious and philosophical towers and strongholds, governed by principalities(seducing spirits, doctrines of demons, wisdom from below- earthly psychological,demonic. The word elements is "stoicheon" and is the same word used in Hebrews 5 "the elemental principles of the oracles of God".

We must come out from under the "elemental principles of the universe" and be built upon the "elemental principles" of the oracles of God before we can "go on" unto maturity. Peter says that the present kosmos is reserved for fire, which will "consume the elements" transfoming the earth into a new/renewed heavens and earth "in which righteousness dwells".

In the moment, in the twinkling of an eye, when the veil  that covers the heavens is rolled back like a scroll, the Lord will "remove the veil that is over all  peoples" Isaih 25:6-9 The epihania/parousia/erchomai of Christ will be a universal event in the consciousness of all beings, "even those who pierced him".

However, I believe that it will be an event that will be consummated in history (like as the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but also was manifest at the "consummation of the ages" to make sacrifice for sins Heb 9:26)even though it transcends time. An awakening, so to speak, that is like "the dawning of the day until the full noon." The day has already dawned, the elements are being consumed, we have weapons that are mighty through God for the tearing down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God, the full noon is fast approaching, "Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you!"

For children of the day, the thief will not catch them out. For children of the night, the thief will take them like an unarmed man and plunder their house. "To the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not even that which he has will be taken away".

[Molly]

6For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
7And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the LORD of hosts.

--Haggai 2



Isaiah 40:4
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:


6And all flesh shall see [the salvation of God] Y'shu'ah elohiym.

--Luke 3



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1ykTzqZkLE

[Nathan]

Oh yes . . .that which is in the spirit is already complete, as "we" who are spirits (redemption already complete) yet still living in these temperal bodies (still bound to laws of time) are/have been/will continue to manifest that which is complete in the spirit to also reflect that completion in the flesh on an individual basis, according to the receptivity of the individuals.

Shaking the heavens and the earth . . .again, for me, not "my" natural understanding of heaven and earth, but the spiritual heavens (belief systems) and earth (carnality).  It's not for the glory of man, but it's for the glory of God.  Man's glory is part of the stuff that's being shaken "away".  "My" flesh shall see the kingdom . . ."our" flesh shall see the kingdom . . .on an individual, a personal basis, which then will lead to "all flesh", not just all flesh in me, but all individuals will finally "see" the kingdom.

I think Jabcat commented about the fact that there are many different levels, layers to seeing these things and I totally agree.  And to that I'd add that some are much more beneficial to us than others, depending on where our level of maturity is in our relationship with the Father.  The more we grow in him, the more receptive we become to the hard-to-understand principles and patterns.  The more we grow spiritually, the more we need to let go of doctrinally. 

I gotta retrain my brain so I can embrace his grace.

[eaglesway]

Oh yes . . .that which is in the spirit is already complete, as "we" who are spirits (redemption already complete) yet still living in these temperal bodies (still bound to laws of time) are/have been/will continue to manifest that which is complete in the spirit to also reflect that completion in the flesh on an individual basis, according to the receptivity of the individuals.

Shaking the heavens and the earth . . .again, for me, not "my" natural understanding of heaven and earth, but the spiritual heavens (belief systems) and earth (carnality).  It's not for the glory of man, but it's for the glory of God.  Man's glory is part of the stuff that's being shaken "away".  "My" flesh shall see the kingdom . . ."our" flesh shall see the kingdom . . .on an individual, a personal basis, which then will lead to "all flesh", not just all flesh in me, but all individuals will finally "see" the kingdom.

I think Jabcat commented about the fact that there are many different levels, layers to seeing these things and I totally agree.  And to that I'd add that some are much more beneficial to us than others, depending on where our level of maturity is in our relationship with the Father.  The more we grow in him, the more receptive we become to the hard-to-understand principles and patterns.  The more we grow spiritually, the more we need to let go of doctrinally. 

I gotta retrain my brain so I can embrace his grace.

I agree. The fact is that the more we grow, the more the "shadow/veil/mist/chaff" is broken off, purged, dissipated by the light etc. No matter what the doctrine, the letter is law. The law is a shadow, the solid reality is Christ Himself, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God.
The seamless integrity of the scriptures folds into the Logos and flows out of the Rhema like breathing in and breathing out- and there is no contradiction, we just need to "Come up higher"

As we press into true spirituality, we find that each of the seeming paradoxes and their polarizing extremes as doctrine, are actually veils to a paradigm of true knowledge that lies just between/beyond/above the poles of the paradox. Free will/predestination, law/grace, historical interpretation/preterist interpretation- these struggles actually each represent two sides of one coin. the whole coin must fall in the slot before the turnstile opens and the drawbridge lowers.

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles(stoicheon) of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits.
(Heb 5:12-6:3)

[Nathan]

Oh DUDE!!!  You're singin my song bro!!!  I love it!!

So . . .question . . . what is "the elementary teachings about the Christ"?

[Molly]

Oh DUDE!!!  You're singin my song bro!!!  I love it!!

So . . .question . . . what is "the elementary teachings about the Christ"?

repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms,
and of laying on of hands,
and of resurrection of the dead,
and of eternal [aionios] judgment.

--Heb 6


That's the milk?  That's all we ever talk about lol.

[Nathan]

EXACTLY!!!  Now, for me . . .a good example of the meat is in Galatians 4 . . .Paul went dimensional on them.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: (MEAT) The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

   "Be glad, barren woman,
   you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
   you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
   than of her who has a husband."[e]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


He took a historical story and went "inward" with it and made "us" the direct connection of Isaac, the offspring of a free woman (mindset) as opposed to that of one in bondage . . . .I got a thing we just came across on the pattern bewteen Adam and Eve with the fruit and Abraham and Sarah offering her hand maid . .. totally awesome pattern . . .but I don't have time right now to do anything with it.

[eaglesway]

Yes, that why we are still not walking as sons :o) but rather as children under tutors- still not ready for the keys

In my opinion, the most important and maligned foundation is eternal judgment

the doctrine of resurrection from the dead is the "whens"

the doctrine of eternal judgement is God's aionian counsel the "why's" of God

Thats why I believe UR is not optional.... it is the key to the restoration of the body.... a foundation on which the "WHY" of God rests

It is impossible to be wise without the whys :o)

[eaglesway]

EXACTLY!!!  Now, for me . . .a good example of the meat is in Galatians 4 . . .Paul went dimensional on them.

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: (MEAT) The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

   "Be glad, barren woman,
   you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
   you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
   than of her who has a husband."[e]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


He took a historical story and went "inward" with it and made "us" the direct connection of Isaac, the offspring of a free woman (mindset) as opposed to that of one in bondage . . . .I got a thing we just came across on the pattern bewteen Adam and Eve with the fruit and Abraham and Sarah offering her hand maid . .. totally awesome pattern . . .but I don't have time right now to do anything with it.

Exactly.... He took the letter into the Spirit and made life giving bread out of it instead of stoning someone to death with it ;o)

Our mother is the New Jerusalem from above(universal, time transcendent) is free- and she is gestating sons......

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope(looking forward to) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory(glorious liberty) of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(Rom 8:19-22)

Yea!

[Nathan]

 :egyptdance: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :egyptdance: :egyptdance:

[Molly]

Is this sentence written strangely?

Ephesians 4:13 (King James Version)

13Till we all come... unto a perfect man,


Shouldn't it say until we all come unto perfect men? [to be proper English]

Or does it mean what it says,  that we,  all together, in oneness,  comprise [or come into] one perfect man?


Ephesians 4:13

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


"unity"

G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520; oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.

[jabcat]

Do any of these help?

Concordant Literal
unto the end that we should all attain to the unity of the faith and of the realization of the son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the complement of the Christ,

Living Translation
This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God's Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ.

English Standard Version (©2001)
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.


American Standard Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Bible in Basic English
Till we all come to the harmony of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to full growth, to the full measure of Christ:

Douay-Rheims Bible
Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ;

English Revised Version
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Weymouth New Testament
till we all of us arrive at oneness in faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, and at mature manhood and the stature of full-grown men in Christ.

[jabcat]

I started to go out and get my Christian Bible out of the car, but I chickened out due to the weather.  Maybe later  :mblush:

[Chris]

Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

A son. Yes
An heir. Yes

But when is the full distribution of the estate to the beneficiaries?

Isn't that what Paul was waiting for? to wit, the redemption of the body.

Doesn't that happen at the first resurrection?  Is that the time of the fulness of the Gentiles?  [that is, all the elect--both Jew and Gentile-- have been brought in?]

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Molly, the child is an heir, but he is not (yet) a son. We have to be "delivered of the child" before we can receive "the adoption of sons" and that "is" the redemption of our bodies... What Paul was waiting for and what we are waiting for is for Christ to be formed IN US, for God to send forth the spirit OF HIS SON into our hearts. We do not (yet) have that as "babes" or "children" (the spiritual equivalent of being "woman" who needs to be "delivered of the child", which is why Paul said; "I suffer not a woman to teach").

And yes, that it tied to "the first resurrection". But you seem to still be looking forward to a single event that has yet to take place that you see as "the first resurrection". But Christ is risen!! And we have part in "the FIRST resurrection" when we come to know the power OF HIS resurrection. He is THE FIRST-FRUITS of them that slept. When HE (who is OUR LIFE) appears (is revealed) IN US then shall we also appear WITH HIM  in glory (Christ in you, the hope of glory). That is how we pass from death unto life, that is how THIS MORTAL "puts on" immortality and THIS CORRUPTIBLE "puts on" incorruption. It is not about being "unclothed" but about being CLOTHED UPON. (2 Cor 5:1-4)

It is not a physical grave that we need to be redeemed from, it is "the body of this death" that is "full of dead men's bones" and whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher" and whose TONGUE is "a world of iniquity... set on fire of hell". It is THIS MORTAL body that is quickened by the spirit of God that dwells IN US. It is THIS MORTAL and THIS CORRUPTIBLE who must "put on" immortality and incorruption. That's not about corpses of rotting flesh in physical graves. It's about those who are "dead" IN SIN. It's about being clothed, not unclothed, according to Paul.   

[Chris]

Is this sentence written strangely?

Ephesians 4:13 (King James Version)

13Till we all come... unto a perfect man,


Shouldn't it say until we all come unto perfect men? [to be proper English]

Or does it mean what it says,  that we,  all together, in oneness,  comprise [or come into] one perfect man?


Ephesians 4:13

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


"unity"

G1775
ἑνότης
henotēs
hen-ot'-ace
From G1520; oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.

This, to me, speaks of the ONE NEW MAN created in Christ, the ONE BODY into which we have all been placed, as "the second man IS the Lord from heaven". It's about the body "growing up" into the Head.