ghosts

[DC]

So, if we all go into a state of oblivion when we die and don't wake up until the end times, what's the deal with all those ghost stories?  Are all ghosts really just demons trying to fool us?  I certainly believe that all those Marian apparitions that were warning people about hell were really demons that were, as the bible puts it "disguised as angels of light", but I've also heard lots of stories about ghosts who genuinely try to help people.  Is it possible that some people are transformed into angels after they die, while others stay asleep?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think there's both impersonations going on by demons, AND the souls of men not yet perfect/complete, being seen. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

So you are saying that (some) people/ghosts are somewhere between heaven and earth.
What's their mission?
Why are they allowed to do whatever they do?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: "Hell" is simply separation from God, and the soul creates it's own "hell" by not overcoming all thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. If we can store up treasure in heaven, by being obedient to the Spirit in this life, why is it so hard for most people to comprehend that the opposite is also true, ie. we thru birthing something thru our "womb-man" (soul) can also store up bondages in the soulish realm (which is also spirit, just not HOLY Spirit)? Not questioning YOU, just hypothetically speaking....

He would not have told the Jews not to talk to the dead, if there were not dead to talk to, He would have said something like, don't talk to the dead, they're really demons.  :2c:

[thinktank]

Possibly, they don't know who God is and live in a world of lies. They might be lost in the vastness of space, not knowing who God is. In various religions they often remember being a ghost and floating around and they seem to know a great deal about the universe but yet they know nothing about Jesus Christ being the son of God, they allways regard him as nothing more than a human, that to me is scriptural proof, providing they are telling the truth, that they do not know God as saviour, but yet have lots of knowledge and  strange experiences.

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: "Hell" is simply separation from God, and the soul creates it's own "hell" by not overcoming all thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. If we can store up treasure in heaven, by being obedient to the Spirit in this life, why is it so hard for most people to comprehend that the opposite is also true, ie. we thru birthing something thru our "womb-man" (soul) can also store up bondages in the soulish realm (which is also spirit, just not HOLY Spirit)? Not questioning YOU, just hypothetically speaking....

He would not have told the Jews not to talk to the dead, if there were not dead to talk to, He would have said something like, don't talk to the dead, they're really demons.  :2c:

Then what exactly are they doing here. Are they watching to learn? Or.....?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: A man named Dr. Eby [edit- George Ritchie] published a book about his death experience. He was an athiest, I believe, died from pneumonia at 19, the day before he was to be sent by the army to study medicine. Anyway, he said he was flying over the earth by just taking thought to go somewhere, and he saw lights down below. He went into a small town, into a bar (the only thing lit up at that hour) and saw people in there drinking and smoking.

He was then startled to notice that next to someone drinking was someone else who grabbed for the drink but his hand went right thru it, after which the person let out a gut-wrenching howl. He saw the same thing with smokers. It was then he realized, that the dead were trying to take what they had desired in their lifetimes, from the living who were still doing it.

I petitioned the Lord for 4 months after my mother died, to show me the truth of what happens when we die. This book lined up with what He showed me. The "cave" many near death experience people describe, is their own stony heart that has deceived them and trapped them in sins of the flesh. The heart is deceitful above all else, and so we are told to guard our HEART with all diligence for out of it, come the issues of life.

Sin is weighty, it weighs us down, His burden is light (and light has no weight). The soul ladened down with sins, descends, the spirit ascends (the spirit returns back to the One who sent it), a "divorce" occurs between soul and spirit that is now evident, no longer veiled and hidden by the flesh. This divorce took place in the garden, the flesh covered up our awareness of it.

The meaning of the smoke ascending from the altar is that the soul (visible from the burning of the fire) ascends with the spirit, brought back into union, when we make of ourselves a LIVING sacrifice. Smoke in essence is particles of dust carried on the winds, no different than clouds. Dust is what makes them visible, the more dust, the darker the cloud. He comes in the clouds, we are to meet Him in the air (as ASCENDED dust = cloud of smoke from the altar).  :2c:

[Molly]

Return from Tomorrow, George Ritchie;  that was a great book.

But, if what you say is true, Card, why aren't those sins covered by Jesus?  And, how does the soul reunite with the spirit?  And, in what case would the spirit and soul ascend together [assuming that is the goal].

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ok, sorry, wrong book  :mshock: His and Ritchie's were the only 2 He let me read.  :mblush: Thanks for the correction  :thumbsup:.....

They are COVERED, but the Day of Atonement was the ONLY day (now a 1000 year day in pattern) in the year that sins were REMOVED, and it occurred in the END of the year (we're looking at a week of years), in the feast of Tabernacles, which lines up with the 7th day from Adam, which is ALSO the 3rd day from Jesus walking the earth. That they are covered is where UR comes in at, but there are levels of reward, as so many parables show.

We are reproved by our OWN wickedness, sowing AND reaping still has to be accounted for. God didn't create the situation for us, we created it for ourselves. He did set the pattern in motion of all things, so in a sense He did, but He made a way out beforehand.

God basically has set the feasts against a timeline of humanity, and His creation week of Genesis. Very simply, they could not be removed until the 7th day/Day of Atonement had come, because it is the pattern He decreed. Time is essentially, catching up with the Spirit, as the plan of God comes to completion.

So the resurrection IS, the soul coming back into union with the spirit, IN CHRIST. This is why Paul talks about a resurrection taking place while still in the body. He knew he was born a man out of season, it was for our benefit, ie. the generation that is to become one with the Spirit, mortality swallowed up of immortality.

I believe his seeing this is what prompted him to pray for the thorn in his flesh to be removed completely (which I believe is the carnal mind, which is why they placed a crown of thorns on His head) because it is what was keeping him from being changed into the glory he had seen of the revelation of Christ.  :2c:

[Molly]

So the resurrection IS, the soul coming back into union with the spirit, IN CHRIST. This is why Paul talks about a resurrection taking place while still in the body. He knew he was born a man out of season, it was for our benefit, ie. the generation that is to become one with the Spirit, mortality swallowed up of immortality.

Are you saying that until the time of the actual soul/body/spirit resurrection we will all experience this sinking of the soul/ascending of the spirit?

I hope that's not true. I've been thinking for a long time that as he gave his soul for us, that our souls might be knitted together with his [as jonathan and david], our soul would ascend with him.

Don't ask me where I got that idea lol but I believe it.

[jabcat]

I would think being saved in this life, "who the Son sets free is free indeed", life more abundantly, and all that, would certainly be meaningful.  Very limited view on all that though. 

[micah7:9]

I must excuse myself. Thanks and blessings :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

So the resurrection IS, the soul coming back into union with the spirit, IN CHRIST. This is why Paul talks about a resurrection taking place while still in the body. He knew he was born a man out of season, it was for our benefit, ie. the generation that is to become one with the Spirit, mortality swallowed up of immortality.

Are you saying that until the time of the actual soul/body/spirit resurrection we will all experience this sinking of the soul/ascending of the spirit?

I hope that's not true. I've been thinking for a long time that as he gave his soul for us, that our souls might be knitted together with his [as jonathan and david], our soul would ascend with him.

Don't ask me where I got that idea lol but I believe it.

:cloud9: Our souls ARE becoming knitted with Him and as we lay down more of us, decreasing, so that He can increase, and it is by that that we have a chance to escape viz a viz the altar. Whether any do is between them and God, He knows. I do know it is temporary, He does not leave anyone behind, but goes back for the 1, which is what is meant by, His hand is not so short it cannot reach to save out of the lowest pit of carnality.

Also; separating the goats to His left hand, is as the soul going back into the waters below the firmament (which is as the judgment to the flesh nature set in place by the letter), the sheep/spirit always follows the Lamb wheresoever He goest. There is called, justified, and SANCTIFIED (Holy of Holies).  :2c:

[Cardinal]

I would think being saved in this life, "who the Son sets free is free indeed", life more abundantly, and all that, would certainly be meaningful.  Very limited view on all that though.

:cloud9: Exactly. He has life AND life more abundantly to give. One is inner court experience, one is Holy of Holies experience.  :2c:

[Cardinal]

Not to be out of line, (but of course I am) still, as long as this "soul-woman-womb" teaching is taught as biblical, rather than theory and hypothetical and open for reproof, and instruction, and even chastisment.  I find learning to be limited when the subject comes up. When ever this subject is debated,  I have noticed, it is always moderated to this teaching that the soul is the woman-womb, I have not found a Bible teaching other than an interpetation by those who have accepted this doctrine and that dont make it so.
This forum at one time was a fountain of learning from revelation and discovery and digging, but now gets hobbled by a period a dot, of thats it,   at least when this one subject comes up.
It leaves me saddly frustrated and unable and limited to offer any thoughts, perhaps this is the way for a brother to take leave. This forum has been my assembly, the Lord has helped me to grow using the brethern and I feel I have made friends with some. The Lord has showed me that when He moves upward it needs be that we throw off the shackles of the old and become yeilding to the "new thing" that He is doing. Isa 43:19 Behold Me doing a new thing. Now is it sprouting. Are you not knowing it? Indeed, I am placing a way in the wilderness, tracks in the desolation."
If it is new, Now is it sprouting. Then I must learn of the new stepping up from the old.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

:cloud9: The root of teachings that dismiss man having a soul is THEFT, ie. robbing God of His offering, ie. make/offer yourselves as a LIVING SACRIFICE. The tithe/firstfruits is Christ, but the sacrifice is all that we are and have been given that HAS BREATH, ie. our soul, including those things of it we gave life to ourselves. That's right, those things WE gave life to, HAVE BREATH, and must be "divinely slaughtered" which is what sacrifice means. Notice in Romans below that the second verse starts talking about the MIND.

Sacrifice in the OT pattern had to do with sin, sin with the condition of the heart and mind, the heart with the soul or innermost being. There were a variety of sacrifices and offerings to be made in the pattern. Not surprisingly, one of the words for offering means, ASCENT, STAIRWAY, STEPS. There are 15 psalms called the songs of ascent, and they are essentially put in a framework of steps that correspond to His pattern of the Tabernacle as it relates to His COMPLETE plan of redemption, spirit , soul, and body.  :2c:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Malachi 3:8 KJV
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

[WhiteWings]

He was then startled to notice that next to someone drinking was someone else who grabbed for the drink but his hand went right thru it, after which the person let out a gut-wrenching howl. He saw the same thing with smokers. It was then he realized, that the dead were trying to take what they had desired in their lifetimes, from the living who were still doing it.

I've read something similar in another book.
I've read some reviews of the book on Amazon and people seems to read different things in the same book.
One reviewer wrote Ritchie saw no hell. Others replied he should reread the book because many were in hell. (Including classic hell)

[Aleax]

Cardinal, with Dr. Eby do you mean Richard Eby? Or someone else with the same last name?

I think his (Richard Eby's) testimony was confusing. I remember him writing about Christ telling him that

-Eby would not die, Christ would come for him in rapture, and
-mankind would not have too much time left to choose between God's truth + eternal life, and Satan's lies + eternal hell.

Yet, to my understanding Richard Eby has passed away, and there will not be rapture anyway. Also, in his letter to Gary Amirault, Eby had written he believes in an eventual salvation of all mankind because of his experience.

[WhiteWings]

-Eby would not die, Christ would come for him in rapture, and
-mankind would not have too much time left to choose between God's truth + eternal life, and Satan's lies + eternal hell.

Yet, to my understanding Richard Eby has passed away, and there will not be rapture anyway. Also, in his letter to Gary Amirault, Eby had written he believes in an eventual salvation of all mankind because of his experience.

How can Eby believe in eternal hell and UR?

[Molly]

One reviewer wrote Ritchie saw no hell. Others replied he should reread the book because many were in hell. (Including classic hell)

If memory serves me, he did see a hell of sorts filled with people who were in constant strife with each other, even to throwing punches at each other, and shouting awful things, etc.  The holy angels were above this frey looking down on it,  and all they had to do was look up to be saved from it, but they were so involved with going after each other they never looked up.

But I might be wrong.  :happygrin:

[Nathan]

First off, Micah, not sure exactly why you posted your concern on this particular thread as there wasn't any mention about soul=womb on it, however I am one that embraces that notion and if it comes across that it's just fact and that's it . .I aplogiize for my own comments in that area as the things I share are not intended to be seen as unmovable facts.  But they are merely things reflecting where I am in the Father "at this time".  If we become rigid in our beliefs, we interfere with our own ability to grow deeper . . .most of the time, the principle has been that I've had to let go of what got me here in order to embrace what is being offered at the time.

In the case of this particular thread . . .Hebrews 11 and 12 are passages I often refer to in cases like this.  It explains that we are currently encompassed by those who've gone on before us, they are watching, they are encouraging . . .our loved ones are still here, they've merely crossed over to the spirit side of this realm.  The rest, I leave open for personal experiences of others . . .I wince at the idea the invisible is full of demon spirits wreaking havoc but that's just my personal pov. 

In faith is how I try to see and it's not always crystal clear as to what is definitely accurate and what isn't.  But I do believe we are surrounded by others who've already passed.  I think much of it has to do with defining "what is heaven" or "where is heaven".  That could help some as well.

[micah7:9]

"Hell" is simply separation from God, and the soul creates it's own "hell" by not overcoming all thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. If we can store up treasure in heaven, by being obedient to the Spirit in this life, why is it so hard for most people to comprehend that the opposite is also true, ie. we thru birthing something thru our "womb-man" (soul) can also store up bondages in the soulish realm (which is also spirit, just not HOLY Spirit)? Not questioning YOU, just hypothetically speaking....

He would not have told the Jews not to talk to the dead, if there were not dead to talk to, He would have said something like, don't talk to the dead, they're really demons. 

[Nathan]

And that's all fine and good, but we're talking about two different dimensions here . . .one is outwardly (literal dead souls) the other is inwardly (let the dead bury the dead).  Because we're called to walk in the spirit, we're not denouncing the natural or literal parts, we're just not giving them high priority.  If my "inward" mad is in the proper alignment, the rest of me falls into it's designated place. 

It's one of the areas where I think the church does things a bit backwards in that they focus on your outward appearance while at the same time telling you that you have to have an inward change.  But the inward change doesn't come "after" we conform our outward appearance, it comes first.  When the inward transformation takes place (God working "in" us) then the outward parts of us will manifest that inward change.

Chasing down the most accurate explanation of what's on the other side of this life is like trying to decide which denomination is best . . . you can't get there because both of those things are "under" the laws of this realm which is based on natural reasoning and logic.  Kingdom truths defy natural logic.  So when we try to grasp the natural logic of something pertaining to spiritual matters, we only lead ourselves into arguments with one another, or disagreements at best.  But if we can pursue the "inward" message of these things, it will lead to the benefit of all of us as it assists in our maturity with the Father through the birthing of his spiritual truth into our lives.

But the key for me here is that we discern which dimension is natural and which is spiritual, or at least discern that there "are" different dimensions being shared out so that we don't become argumentative over something when both participants are accurate in their perceptions.

[Taffy]

"Hell" is simply separation from God, and the soul creates it's own "hell" by not overcoming all thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. If we can store up treasure in heaven, by being obedient to the Spirit in this life, why is it so hard for most people to comprehend that the opposite is also true, ie. we thru birthing something thru our "womb-man" (soul) can also store up bondages in the soulish realm (which is also spirit, just not HOLY Spirit)? Not questioning YOU, just hypothetically speaking....

He would not have told the Jews not to talk to the dead, if there were not dead to talk to, He would have said something like, don't talk to the dead, they're really demons.

AMEN Micah :icon_flower:

I realise you didnt post this originally- and for sure, the concept of what some on this board speak of may for now mean very little to you- but was there a Time when Salvation for all also sounded like Pie in the sky? :dontknow:

No one is here to convince you Micah of the SPIRIT Soul and body which some see so clealy- If this is not for you  , then maybe put it in storage for now Brother-  this board allows many topics and the freedom to share them, be it at times we may not see it all the same way- but all boards are the Same-

Blessings

[micah7:9]

"Hell" is simply separation from God, and the soul creates it's own "hell" by not overcoming all thru the Spirit of Christ while still in the body. If we can store up treasure in heaven, by being obedient to the Spirit in this life, why is it so hard for most people to comprehend that the opposite is also true, ie. we thru birthing something thru our "womb-man" (soul) can also store up bondages in the soulish realm (which is also spirit, just not HOLY Spirit)? Not questioning YOU, just hypothetically speaking....

He would not have told the Jews not to talk to the dead, if there were not dead to talk to, He would have said something like, don't talk to the dead, they're really demons.

AMEN Micah :icon_flower:

I realise you didnt post this originally- and for sure, the concept of what some on this board speak of may for now mean very little to you- but was there a Time when Salvation for all also sounded like Pie in the sky? :dontknow:

No one is here to convince you Micah of the SPIRIT Soul and body which some see so clealy- If this is not for you  , then maybe put it in storage for now Brother-  this board allows many topics and the freedom to share them, be it at times we may not see it all the same way- but all boards are the Same-

Blessings

Please excuse me. Blessings

[Taffy]

It was Just a Thought Micah- ALas if its to your likng or not- it will continue to  be spoken about while certain members on this Board remain at Tent :icon_flower:

What you wish to do about that is entirely upto you :dontknow:

This is LAST ill say on This Micah- youll not get a FIGHT from me-irrespective how many posts you make in Protest  :HeartThrob:

Blessings

:icon_flower: