What if we said nes wins?

[jabcat]

OK nes, if you've come here to teach a lot of saved folks that unless they believe in eternal torment in "hell", then they're condemned;

I consider you a brother, so to keep the peace, what if we were to admit your were right?


If I said God cannot get what He wills, would you be happy?

If I said Jesus' death and resurrection was only able to rescue 10% of humanity, and Satan won the rest, 90% remaining in his grasp;

that as in Adam all died, but in Christ will only some be made alive;

that Jesus came to conquer death and the grave, but He failed, as there will be those continuing to die a slow eternal death throughout the eons;  the gates of hell will prevail, and the keys to death and hell Jesus holds are only meaningful to some Americans, a few Europeans, and very few scattered others from around the world and throughout all of time - because they were born in places and/or conditions in which they either didn't hear or have the capacity to choose Christ;  would you be happy then and/or would you consider your mission accomplished?

[nes]

OK nes, if you've come here to teach a lot of saved folks that unless they believe in eternal torment in "hell", then they're condemned;

I've never taught that.

I consider you a brother, so to keep the peace, what if we were to admit your were right?

If I said God cannot get what He wills, would you be happy?

God doesn't control people, he gives people choices just like with adam and eve.  Why would god make a tree that they should not eat in the first place?

If I said Jesus' death and resurrection was only able to rescue 10% of humanity, and Satan won the rest, 90% remaining in his grasp;

that as in Adam all died, but in Christ will only some be made alive;

All in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.

that Jesus came to conquer death and the grave, but He failed

No, he succeeded, but the first death and the grave has not been conquered yet.  Only AFTER the final judgment is the first death and the grave conquered.  How can the first death be conquered before people must be judged?  God said that EVERYONE must be judged after the first death.  God can't lie.  The second death will never be conquered, it exists for those in the lake of fire, no where does it say that the lake of fire will stop existing, the smoke will go up forever and ever.

, as there will be those continuing to die a slow eternal death throughout the eons;  the gates of hell will prevail, and the keys to death and hell Jesus holds are only meaningful to mostly some Americans, a few Europeans, and very few scattered others from around the world and throughout all of time - because they were born in places and/or conditions in which they either didn't hear or have the capacity to choose Christ;  would you be happy then and/or would you consider your mission accomplished?

1/3 of angels are going to be thrown in the lake of fire forever and will never be forgiven, but for humans it's different??  Abraham sacrificed his infant Heb 11:17-19, 19 "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death."  In 2 Samuel 12:23 abraham says that he will go to him but Isaac won't go to him.  So I guess that you'll have the holy spirit in you until you are not part of the body of christ because of committing blasphemy of the holy spirit and committing blasphemy of the holy spirit is not a hard thing to do, every sin can/will (depending on bible ver) be forgiven except this one.  A ton of people appear to be set for hell, for example catholics look at the pope are the one who makes/changes the law (what is right and wrong), they look at him as a lord, while jesus is a damn wafer.  There's no chance of getting to heaven while you believe that the lord of you is the pope for example.  It's easier for the world to pass than for a single letter of the law will be changed.

Why would not having capacity to choose christ matter?  Judgment might not happen immediately after death and I would expect people to not carry the mental or physical defects that they had on earth to the afterlife.  So i'll speculate that everyone should have the capacity after death on earth, for a 1 yr old, age might be a defect as well.  None of this is really talked about in the bible though...  I believe that abraham wasn't deceived when he said what he did in 2 Samuel 12:23.

[Molly]

All in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

--John 1

[nes]

All in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
--John 1

That's probably not what it says, this is what it most likely says.

John 1:9 NIV 2010  The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
John 1:9 ESV  The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1:9 YLT  He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, (was) coming to the world;

I cannot find a single translation that matches yours.  Looking at the greek text I don't know how that verse got translated the way it did for your bible.

If you read john 1:6-8 "There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light."

Jesus gives light to everyone, but not everyone accepts/chooses to receive the light that he gives. 

John 1:11-13  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".

[Molly]

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

--Acts 17

[WhiteWings]

It the KJV translation Nes.

What's your problem with that translation?
Translators seem to agree quite well on this verse.

[WhiteWings]

John 1:11-13  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

^YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

[Molly]

John 1:11-13  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".

Not in this age, nes.  But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved?  Are you a Calvinist?

[nes]

John 1:11-13  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".

Not in this age, nes.  But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved?  Are you a Calvinist?

No, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved.  I'm not calvinist.  John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age. 
Eternal life is (always) offered to everyone, but people refuse it.

^YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT.  Here is niv 2010.
John 6:46   No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hmm, what's this??  Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

It's just the holy spirit that's needed.  No wonder why blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgivable.  Being drawn to jesus does not completely secure salvation.  As long as people are not in heaven, they'll be able to break away from god.  God doesn't reject people, but people reject god.

[Molly]

No, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved.  I'm not calvinist.  John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age. 

OK, so in this age, Jesus is making an offer to those who will receive him--to become sons of the living God.

Would you agree that Jesus already knows who those will be in this age?


Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[Molly]

Here's some more, nes.  That word predestinate:

"predestinate"

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.

That English word, 'ordain,' nes--it has both a secular and religious meaning--but both refer to a higher authority which is ordering something to happen or someone else to attain a position of authority:

"Ordain"
order by virtue of superior authority; decree; "The King ordained the persecution and expulsion of the Jews"; "the legislature enacted this law in 1985"
appoint to a clerical posts; "he was ordained in the Church"
invest with ministerial or priestly authority; "The minister was ordained only last month"
issue an order




IN other words, I cannot ordain myself to be vested with certain powers or authority [unless maybe if I am the King or the Pope or the Dictator lol].





47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

--Acts 13



Isn't this an odd way to put it?  "As many as were ordained to eternal life....believed."

"ordained"

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.


So they are believing because they were appointed to believe [in this age]?  Isn't that what it's saying?  Isn't that the same as predestination?

So I'll ask my question again:  Would you agree that Jesus already knows who those will be in this age?

[Paul Hazelwood]

That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT. 

That is a common misundertsanding; thinking the more readable the translation the better it is.

[Molly]

Now this is really amazing, nes,  and I think the posterboy for universal salvation.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

--1 Cor 15

Paul has set up this sentence as a direct comparison--just as all died in Adam, all shall also be made alive in Christ.  All-All

But, then Paul goes on to qualify it--

23But every man in his own order:

What does Paul mean by this?

"order"

G5001
τάγμα
tagma
tag'-mah
From G5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), that is, (figuratively) a series or succession: - order.

They are coming into the kingdom in an order or a succession that was predetermined and ordained.  And that word 'tagma' comes from G5021 which is:

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

It's CHB's lottery!


1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

--1 Cor 15

HalleluYah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE

[PaoloNuevo]

AMEN TO THIS!!!  :cloud9: :cloud9: :trampoline: :trampoline: :trampoline: :trampoline: :angelharp:

Now this is really amazing, nes,  and I think the posterboy for universal salvation.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

--1 Cor 15

Paul has set up this sentence as a direct comparison--just as all died in Adam, all shall also be made alive in Christ.  All-All

But, then Paul goes on to qualify it--

23But every man in his own order:

What does Paul mean by this?

"order"

G5001
τάγμα
tagma
tag'-mah
From G5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), that is, (figuratively) a series or succession: - order.

They are coming into the kingdom in an order or a succession that was predetermined and ordained.  And that word 'tagma' comes from G5021 which is:

G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.

It's CHB's lottery!


1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

--1 Cor 15

HalleluYah!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE

[Taffy]

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hmm, what's this??  Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

:icon_flower:

If one checks the definition of Draw- it means TO DRAG- which some may think means to Grab by the scruff of the Neck and haul across the ground-

If you check the word Sarx[ Flesh] that also means something that can be STRIPPED off-it also mentions CARNALLY minded


its really ALL  referring to the FLESH being stripped away- the carnal mind- even repentance is a Changing of the MIND- a turning around -

WHICH COMES VIA THE Goodness OF THE lord

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

In Math 23 where Christ TEARS at the Pharisees by what some say, with the use of sarcasm- oddly enough in the GREEK-it means Tear at-[ the FLESH] - the hardness of the pharisses heart needs tearing away- SUCH wisdom dont you THINK?

can we look at these scrips again?

John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

No one can come to the LORD lest the Father
DRAWS[ begins to tear away at the carnal mind- the opening of the Heart and Mind ] such is the GOODNESS of repentance-

ALL work is HIS- that NO flesh should GLORY- :icon_flower:

ALL die in ADAM- all """MADE ALIVE" in Christ-  :icon_flower: each in their own order- further more nes can you find me a scripture which says SALVATION is fully complete in this era ONLY

Blessings :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Bottom line . . .the god Nes serves and is pushing on us has limitations. 

Yeah, he created man, but man's mind has more power than the cross.  The closest God could come to is to at least save "some" of us by sending Jesus, who willingly came, suffered, was mocked, ridiculed, beaten, denounced, humiliated and ultimately died . . .IN HOPES that MAYBE a few of us would stumble across a preacher's message about how bad we are and that we're all going to hell . . .but love gives us an option . . .except not only is it that a fraction of the world's population will ever hear the message, only a fraction of that fraction will ever actually accept Jesus.

He loves us, he created us in his image, but unless our tiny little minds will say the magic words, his love has no power.  He can't save us from ourselves because our minds are just too strong for him.  His love can't melt us, can't reach us.  So there's only one thing left for love to do . . .condemn us all to hell for ever and ever not to die, but to be in eternal torment.

Yup  . . that's definitely what love is all about.  It DEMANDS us to accept it, otherwise . . .to hell with all of us.

you were right all along Nes.

[jabcat]

Nathan, if you haven't seen it, you might "like" this;

New Radical Unbelief Bible

1 Cor. 15:22

"For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up some of the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power."

Rev. 5:13

"And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."

Col. 1:18-20

"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme.

For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell.

And, having made some peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."

Acts 3:20,21

"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)"

1 Cor. 15:28

"And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some."

1 Cor. 15:25,27

"For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet...For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him."

Romans 11:32

"For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some."

Eph. 4:10

"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence."

John 5:28

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

1 Timothy 2:4

"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."

1 Timothy 2:6

"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time."

Cor. 5:15

"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)....some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

"The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually."

Gal. 3:20

"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."

Heb. 1:2

"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)"

2 Cor. 5:14

"For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."

Heb.8:11

"And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

"For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end." (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some."

Heb. 12:23

"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."

James 2:10

"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some."

Romans 3:22,23

"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour."

John 17:2

"As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him."

Romans 9:5

"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages."

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance."

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

Please Remember... 

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

[Taffy]

New Radical Unbelief Bible

Is that the Name- wowza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sigh:

[jabcat]

let's hope it's sarcasm...i think so, but these days, you can't be too sure sometimes.   

[micah7:9]

Its not and nes has won

[thinktank]

John 1:11-13  He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".

Not in this age, nes.  But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved?  Are you a Calvinist?

No, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved.  I'm not calvinist.  John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age. 
Eternal life is (always) offered to everyone, but people refuse it.

I agree with you that, not all will have eternal life. But the rest will live again as flesh and blood human beings, possibly in some future time those that are worthy will obtain eternal life as in REv21 when the doors are open for human beings to receive the water of life, the same tree of life that Adam and Eve had access to. So I think that only beleivers in this age, live with Christ in heavenly places, the rest live on the earth, until God does something new.

^YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT.  Here is niv 2010.
John 6:46   No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father

John 6:44  "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Hmm, what's this??  Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32  And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

It's just the holy spirit that's needed.  No wonder why blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgivable.  Being drawn to jesus does not completely secure salvation.  As long as people are not in heaven, they'll be able to break away from god.  God doesn't reject people, but people reject god.

[WhiteWings]

I looked on Amazon but can't find that fine translation. Do you have a link James?

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:  I think someone just put together these verses to show the futility of the ET argument.

[WhiteWings]

:bigGrin:  I think someone just put together these verses to show the futility of the ET argument.

How teh hell could I fall for that! :wink:

[jabcat]

oops