OK nes, if you've come here to teach a lot of saved folks that unless they believe in eternal torment in "hell", then they're condemned;
I consider you a brother, so to keep the peace, what if we were to admit your were right?
If I said God cannot get what He wills, would you be happy?
If I said Jesus' death and resurrection was only able to rescue 10% of humanity, and Satan won the rest, 90% remaining in his grasp;
that as in Adam all died, but in Christ will only some be made alive;
that Jesus came to conquer death and the grave, but He failed, as there will be those continuing to die a slow eternal death throughout the eons; the gates of hell will prevail, and the keys to death and hell Jesus holds are only meaningful to some Americans, a few Europeans, and very few scattered others from around the world and throughout all of time - because they were born in places and/or conditions in which they either didn't hear or have the capacity to choose Christ; would you be happy then and/or would you consider your mission accomplished?
Quote from: jabcat on January 18, 2011, 06:07:38 AM
OK nes, if you've come here to teach a lot of saved folks that unless they believe in eternal torment in "hell", then they're condemned;
I've never taught that.
Quote from: jabcat on January 18, 2011, 06:07:38 AM
I consider you a brother, so to keep the peace, what if we were to admit your were right?
If I said God cannot get what He wills, would you be happy?
God doesn't control people, he gives people choices just like with adam and eve. Why would god make a tree that they should not eat in the first place?
Quote from: jabcat on January 18, 2011, 06:07:38 AM
If I said Jesus' death and resurrection was only able to rescue 10% of humanity, and Satan won the rest, 90% remaining in his grasp;
that as in Adam all died, but in Christ will only some be made alive;
All in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.
Quote from: jabcat on January 18, 2011, 06:07:38 AM
that Jesus came to conquer death and the grave, but He failed
No, he succeeded, but the first death and the grave has not been conquered yet. Only AFTER the final judgment is the first death and the grave conquered. How can the first death be conquered before people must be judged? God said that EVERYONE must be judged after the first death. God can't lie. The second death will never be conquered, it exists for those in the lake of fire, no where does it say that the lake of fire will stop existing, the smoke will go up forever and ever.
Quote from: jabcat on January 18, 2011, 06:07:38 AM
, as there will be those continuing to die a slow eternal death throughout the eons; the gates of hell will prevail, and the keys to death and hell Jesus holds are only meaningful to mostly some Americans, a few Europeans, and very few scattered others from around the world and throughout all of time - because they were born in places and/or conditions in which they either didn't hear or have the capacity to choose Christ; would you be happy then and/or would you consider your mission accomplished?
1/3 of angels are going to be thrown in the lake of fire forever and will never be forgiven, but for humans it's different?? Abraham sacrificed his infant Heb 11:17-19, 19 "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death." In 2 Samuel 12:23 abraham says that he will go to him but Isaac won't go to him. So I guess that you'll have the holy spirit in you until you are not part of the body of christ because of committing blasphemy of the holy spirit and committing blasphemy of the holy spirit is not a hard thing to do, every sin can/will (depending on bible ver) be forgiven except this one. A ton of people appear to be set for hell, for example catholics look at the pope are the one who makes/changes the law (what is right and wrong), they look at him as a lord, while jesus is a damn wafer. There's no chance of getting to heaven while you believe that the lord of you is the pope for example. It's easier for the world to pass than for a single letter of the law will be changed.
Why would not having capacity to choose christ matter? Judgment might not happen immediately after death and I would expect people to not carry the mental or physical defects that they had on earth to the afterlife. So i'll speculate that everyone should have the capacity after death on earth, for a 1 yr old, age might be a defect as well. None of this is really talked about in the bible though... I believe that abraham wasn't deceived when he said what he did in 2 Samuel 12:23.
Quote from: nesAll in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth
every man that cometh into the world.
--John 1
Quote from: Molly on January 18, 2011, 07:45:41 AM
Quote from: nesAll in christ are alive, but not all are in christ.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
--John 1
That's probably not what it says, this is what it most likely says.
John 1:9 NIV 2010 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
John 1:9 ESV The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1:9 YLT He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man,
(was) coming to the world;
I cannot find a single translation that matches yours. Looking at the greek text I don't know how that verse got translated the way it did for your bible.
If you read john 1:6-8 "There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8
He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light."
Jesus gives light to everyone, but not everyone accepts/chooses to receive the light that he gives.
John 1:11-13 He came to that which was his own,
but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
--Acts 17
It the KJV translation Nes.
What's your problem with that translation?
Translators seem to agree quite well on this verse.
Quote from: nes on January 18, 2011, 07:53:53 AM
John 1:11-13 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
YLTJohn 644 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
Quote from: nesJohn 1:11-13 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".
Not in this age, nes. But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved? Are you a Calvinist?
Quote from: Molly on January 18, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Quote from: nesJohn 1:11-13 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".
Not in this age, nes. But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved? Are you a Calvinist?
No, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved. I'm not calvinist. John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age.
Eternal life is (always) offered to everyone, but people refuse it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 18, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT. Here is niv 2010.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father
John 6:44 "
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through me.Hmm, what's this?? Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth,
will draw all people to myself."
It's just the holy spirit that's needed. No wonder why blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgivable. Being drawn to jesus does not completely secure salvation. As long as people are not in heaven, they'll be able to break away from god. God doesn't reject people, but people reject god.
Quote from: nesNo, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved. I'm not calvinist. John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age.
OK, so in this age, Jesus is making an offer to those who will receive him--to become sons of the living God.
Would you agree that Jesus already knows who those will be in this age?
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Here's some more, nes. That word predestinate:
"predestinate"
G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
That English word, 'ordain,' nes--it has both a secular and religious meaning--but both refer to a higher authority which is ordering something to happen or someone else to attain a position of authority:
"Ordain"
order by virtue of superior authority; decree; "The King ordained the persecution and expulsion of the Jews"; "the legislature enacted this law in 1985"
appoint to a clerical posts; "he was ordained in the Church"
invest with ministerial or priestly authority; "The minister was ordained only last month"
issue an order
IN other words, I cannot ordain myself to be vested with certain powers or authority [unless maybe if I am the King or the Pope or the Dictator lol].
47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
--Acts 13
Isn't this an odd way to put it? "As many as were ordained to eternal life....believed."
"ordained"
G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.
So they are believing because they were appointed to believe [in this age]? Isn't that what it's saying? Isn't that the same as predestination?
So I'll ask my question again: Would you agree that Jesus already knows who those will be in this age?
Quote from: nes on January 18, 2011, 09:49:36 AM
That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT.
That is a common misundertsanding; thinking the more readable the translation the better it is.
Now this is really amazing, nes, and I think the posterboy for universal salvation.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
--1 Cor 15
Paul has set up this sentence as a direct comparison--just as all died in Adam, all shall also be made alive in Christ. All-All
But, then Paul goes on to qualify it--
23But every man in his own order:
What does Paul mean by this?
"order"
G5001
τάγμα
tagma
tag'-mah
From G5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), that is, (figuratively) a series or succession: - order.
They are coming into the kingdom in an order or a succession that was predetermined and ordained. And that word 'tagma' comes from G5021 which is:
G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.
It's CHB's lottery!
1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
--1 Cor 15
HalleluYah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE
AMEN TO THIS!!! :cloud9: :cloud9: :trampoline: :trampoline: :trampoline: :trampoline: :angelharp:
Quote from: Molly on January 18, 2011, 02:47:38 PM
Now this is really amazing, nes, and I think the posterboy for universal salvation.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
--1 Cor 15
Paul has set up this sentence as a direct comparison--just as all died in Adam, all shall also be made alive in Christ. All-All
But, then Paul goes on to qualify it--
23But every man in his own order:
What does Paul mean by this?
"order"
G5001
τάγμα
tagma
tag'-mah
From G5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), that is, (figuratively) a series or succession: - order.
They are coming into the kingdom in an order or a succession that was predetermined and ordained. And that word 'tagma' comes from G5021 which is:
G5021
τάσσω
tassō
tas'-so
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, that is, assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot): - addict, appoint, determine, ordain, set.
It's CHB's lottery!
1 Corinthians 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
--1 Cor 15
HalleluYah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWWJMuqbSE
QuoteJohn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hmm, what's this?? Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
:icon_flower:
If one checks the definition of
Draw- it means TO DRAG- which some may think means to Grab by the scruff of the Neck and haul across the ground-
If you check the word Sarx[ Flesh] that also means something that can be STRIPPED off-it also mentions CARNALLY minded
its really ALL referring to the FLESH being stripped away- the carnal mind- even repentance is a Changing of the MIND- a turning around -
WHICH COMES VIA THE Goodness OF THE lord
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? In Math 23 where Christ TEARS at the Pharisees by what some say, with the use of sarcasm- oddly enough in the GREEK-it means Tear at-[ the FLESH] - the hardness of the pharisses heart needs tearing away- SUCH wisdom dont you THINK?
can we look at these scrips again?
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the
Father except through me.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who
sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth,
will draw all people to myself."No one can come to the LORD lest the Father
DRAWS[ begins to tear away at the carnal mind- the opening of the Heart and Mind ] such is the GOODNESS of repentance-
ALL work is HIS- that NO flesh should GLORY- :icon_flower:
ALL die in ADAM- all """MADE ALIVE" in Christ- :icon_flower: each in their own order- further more nes can you find me a scripture which says SALVATION is fully complete in this era ONLY
Blessings :icon_flower:
Bottom line . . .the god Nes serves and is pushing on us has limitations.
Yeah, he created man, but man's mind has more power than the cross. The closest God could come to is to at least save "some" of us by sending Jesus, who willingly came, suffered, was mocked, ridiculed, beaten, denounced, humiliated and ultimately died . . .IN HOPES that MAYBE a few of us would stumble across a preacher's message about how bad we are and that we're all going to hell . . .but love gives us an option . . .except not only is it that a fraction of the world's population will ever hear the message, only a fraction of that fraction will ever actually accept Jesus.
He loves us, he created us in his image, but unless our tiny little minds will say the magic words, his love has no power. He can't save us from ourselves because our minds are just too strong for him. His love can't melt us, can't reach us. So there's only one thing left for love to do . . .condemn us all to hell for ever and ever not to die, but to be in eternal torment.
Yup . . that's definitely what love is all about. It DEMANDS us to accept it, otherwise . . .to hell with all of us.
you were right all along Nes.
Nathan, if you haven't seen it, you might "like" this;
New Radical Unbelief Bible
1 Cor. 15:22
"For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up some of the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power."
Rev. 5:13
"And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power unto the ages of the ages."
Col. 1:18-20
"He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme.
For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell.
And, having made some peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated..."
Acts 3:20,21
"And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)"
1 Cor. 15:28
"And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some."
1 Cor. 15:25,27
"For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet...For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him."
Romans 11:32
"For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some."
Eph. 4:10
"Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence."
John 5:28
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
1 Timothy 2:4
"For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:6
"For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time."
Cor. 5:15
"For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life."
Col. 1:16
"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)....some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)
John 3:35
"The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God's displeasure hangs over him continually."
Gal. 3:20
"But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him."
Heb. 1:2
"God...hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)"
2 Cor. 5:14
"For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for us and has risen again."
Heb.8:11
"And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness..."
Acts 10:36
"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.
Rom. 11:36
"For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end." (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)
Eph. 4:6
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some."
Heb. 12:23
"To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect."
James 2:10
"For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some."
Romans 3:22,23
"..the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. ...For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour."
John 17:2
"As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him."
Romans 9:5
"The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages."
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people's conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance."
Phil. 2:10,11
In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees of worshippers will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.
Please Remember...
All does not radically mean all.
Whole is not whole.
All = Some
QuoteNew Radical Unbelief Bible
Is that the Name- wowza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :sigh:
let's hope it's sarcasm...i think so, but these days, you can't be too sure sometimes.
Its not and nes has won
Quote from: nes on January 18, 2011, 09:49:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 18, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Quote from: nesJohn 1:11-13 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Jesus won't turn down anyone that "comes to him", but not everyone will "come to him".
Not in this age, nes. But, do you think the elect are the only ones who will ever be saved? Are you a Calvinist?
No, I do not think that the elect are the only ones that will ever be saved. I'm not calvinist. John in 1:11-13 is talking about this age.
Eternal life is (always) offered to everyone, but people refuse it.
I agree with you that, not all will have eternal life. But the rest will live again as flesh and blood human beings, possibly in some future time those that are worthy will obtain eternal life as in REv21 when the doors are open for human beings to receive the water of life, the same tree of life that Adam and Eve had access to. So I think that only beleivers in this age, live with Christ in heavenly places, the rest live on the earth, until God does something new.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 18, 2011, 08:28:21 AM
YLTJohn 6
44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
That doesn't even make a readable sentence which is what I don't like about YLT. Here is niv 2010.
John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hmm, what's this?? Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
It's just the holy spirit that's needed. No wonder why blasphemy of the holy spirit is unforgivable. Being drawn to jesus does not completely secure salvation. As long as people are not in heaven, they'll be able to break away from god. God doesn't reject people, but people reject god.
I looked on Amazon but can't find that fine translation. Do you have a link James?
:bigGrin: I think someone just put together these verses to show the futility of the ET argument.
Quote from: jabcat on January 19, 2011, 09:12:28 AM
:bigGrin: I think someone just put together these verses to show the futility of the ET argument.
How teh hell could I fall for that! :wink:
oops
Luckily the appendix is free of (c)opyright[/b]
Christian Double-Talk[/b]
| What Traditional Christians Say... | What They Really Mean... |
| Love never faileth! | Love can't overcome human stubborness. |
| There's nothing you must do to be saved...... | Here's what you must do to be saved: |
| You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself. | You must make a wise decision in order to be saved. |
| God controls all things. | God doesn't control man's free will. |
| We can't boast about going to heaven. | If we go to hell, it's our own fault. |
| Men are in bondage to sin. | Men are free to choose Christ. |
| Grace is unmerited favor... | ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience. |
| GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND | (1 Tim. 4:10)... ... except for about ninety percent of them. |
| GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL... | ... as long as you meet certain conditions. |
| GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE... | ... except by the sinner. |
| Salvation is not a thing of chance. | There is no second chance to be saved. |
| WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! | Most of mankind will perish forever. |
| GOD LOVES YOU! | ... as long as you love Him. |
| Christ died for all sin... | ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin. |
| The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! | The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late. |
| God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ. | God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation. |
1997 by Jeff Preddy.
May be copied for non-commercial purposes,
Wow . . .this was fantastic!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 03:56:31 PM
QuoteJohn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hmm, what's this?? Being DRAWN and coming are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
:icon_flower:
If one checks the definition of Draw- it means TO DRAG- which some may think means to Grab by the scruff of the Neck and haul across the ground-
If you check the word Sarx[ Flesh] that also means something that can be STRIPPED off-it also mentions CARNALLY minded
its really ALL referring to the FLESH being stripped away- the carnal mind- even repentance is a Changing of the MIND- a turning around -
WHICH COMES VIA THE Goodness OF THE lord
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
In Math 23 where Christ TEARS at the Pharisees by what some say, with the use of sarcasm- oddly enough in the GREEK-it means Tear at-[ the FLESH] - the hardness of the pharisses heart needs tearing away- SUCH wisdom dont you THINK?
can we look at these scrips again?
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
No one can come to the LORD lest the Father
DRAWS[ begins to tear away at the carnal mind- the opening of the Heart and Mind ] such is the GOODNESS of repentance-
ALL work is HIS- that NO flesh should GLORY- :icon_flower:
ALL die in ADAM- all """MADE ALIVE" in Christ- :icon_flower: each in their own order- further more nes can you find me a scripture which says SALVATION is fully complete in this era ONLY
Blessings :icon_flower:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Luckily the appendix is free of (c)opyright[/b]
Christian Double-Talk[/b]
| What Traditional Christians Say... | What They Really Mean... |
| Love never faileth! | Love can't overcome human stubborness. |
| There's nothing you must do to be saved...... | Here's what you must do to be saved: |
| You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself. | You must make a wise decision in order to be saved. |
| God controls all things. | God doesn't control man's free will. |
| We can't boast about going to heaven. | If we go to hell, it's our own fault. |
| Men are in bondage to sin. | Men are free to choose Christ. |
| Grace is unmerited favor... | ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience. |
| GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND | (1 Tim. 4:10)... ... except for about ninety percent of them. |
| GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL... | ... as long as you meet certain conditions. |
| GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE... | ... except by the sinner. |
| Salvation is not a thing of chance. | There is no second chance to be saved. |
| WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! | Most of mankind will perish forever. |
| GOD LOVES YOU! | ... as long as you love Him. |
| Christ died for all sin... | ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin. |
| The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! | The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late. |
| God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ. | God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation. |
1997 by Jeff Preddy.
May be copied for non-commercial purposes,
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
What Traditional Christians Say... What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth! Love can't overcome human stubborness.
It's easier for the world to pass (and all the love in it) than for a letter of the law to be changed. God making a lie would be evil and not love. God can't have love inside of him. If god says that unbelievers won't be in heaven and he lies about it by letting unbelievers in heaven, then god would have evil in him.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
There's nothing you must do to be saved...... Here's what you must do to be saved:
Abraham was confident that he would see his infant son in heaven. So it appears that everyone is saved until they are committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
So
"Here's what you must not be doing to be saved"Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself. You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.
No you aren't helpless to save yourself, you do not need to make any "decisions" to be saved. You just need to not be committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
God controls all things. God doesn't control man's free will.
God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
We can't boast about going to heaven. If we go to hell, it's our own fault.
That's correct, you are without excuse.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Men are in bondage to sin. Men are free to choose Christ.
Men are free to reject christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Grace is unmerited favor... ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.
It's given to everybody, such as when god delays judgement to the lake of fire.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)... ... except for about ninety percent of them.
That's correct, he is the savior of mankind, but people reject it.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL... ... as long as you meet certain conditions.
Just because somebody goes to the lake of fire does not mean that god does not love the person. God loves people on earth even though he didn't make contact with those people. You don't need to feel love by god to be loved by him.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE... ... except by the sinner.
God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Salvation is not a thing of chance. There is no second chance to be saved.
Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! Most of mankind will perish forever.
The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead. Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD LOVES YOU! ... as long as you love Him.
You don't have the capability to love him. Jesus said obey my commandments to show your love.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Christ died for all sin... ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.
You need to have a clean heart and not one of a dirty rag. Having your sins forgiven does not get you a new heart.
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
Christ is the savior of the world, christ is everyone's savior unless the person rejects his gift.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ. God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.
God's justice (for everyone) was not satisfied in the cross of Christ, it never says that in the bible.
God sent Jesus to be Saviour of the world.
Jesus Wins, so NES wins too, just not the way he thinks. :laughing7:
Quote from: nes on January 20, 2011, 02:58:02 AM
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
Some points may be true, but a true point does not necessarily negate what a person is ultimatly arguing against.
The fallacy is the assertion that if the bible doesn't explicitly say "all sins" then Jesus does not take care of all sin.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.
What part of this scriptural fact is left to build a conclusion that we must assume that this is not concerning every sin we commit?
There is none.
This is a common misconception from all biblical points of view, many people make demands that a scripture must be found to read a certain way in order to maintain a truth of a conclusion when there are many ways scripture allows conclusions.
If scripture tells me that Jesus died for my sins, there is no need for me to wonder if he died for all of them in the context of who Jesus is and the power that he has. He indeed did die for all of my sins and yours too.
The final problem in this excersize of exposing fallacy is that few if any ( I personally have never met one, perhaps nes can be the first) will apply thier own assertions to themselves to the full extent of the implications.
nes, if Jesus did not die for all sins, then that exposes YOU to the possibility and more than likely so, that he did not die for all of YOURS and therefore it is highly likely, as an imperfect being, that you , given you believe in eternal damnation, that you yourself are damned.
If Jesus died for only some sins, why does scripture not tell us which sins Jesus died for? Did he die for adultery but not murder?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 20, 2011, 07:27:59 AM
God sent Jesus to be Saviour of the world.
Jesus Wins, so NES wins too, just not the way he thinks. :laughing7:
:thumbsup:
Reminds me Paul of me praying for my agnostic brother to be saved. It was before I knew absolutely anything about UR. One day while praying, I sensed God speak to me, "he will be saved, but not as you expect". At the time I didn't know what that meant. Praise God He has a much BIGGER plan than most of us typically give him credit for. Hallelujah! Jesus is Lord, and ALL things will be summed up in Him.
.".with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.." Eph. 1:10
Quote from: nes on January 20, 2011, 02:58:02 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
What Traditional Christians Say... What They Really Mean...
Love never faileth! Love can't overcome human stubborness.
It's easier for the world to pass (and all the love in it) than for a letter of the law to be changed. God making a lie would be evil and not love. God can't have love inside of him. If god says that unbelievers won't be in heaven and he lies about it by letting unbelievers in heaven, then god would have evil in him.
Firstly nobody on this forum claims there will be even 1 unbeliever in heaven. That's exactly 0 unbelievers.
Secondly you didn't answer the statement. Using your own words If God lies He would have evil in Him. He clearly states love wins. If human stubborness can over come that love His live didn't win and He lied.
That's the thing you should debunk.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
There's nothing you must do to be saved...... Here's what you must do to be saved:
Abraham was confident that he would see his infant son in heaven. So it appears that everyone is saved until they are committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
So "Here's what you must not be doing to be saved"
Nothing means nothing. You just added a condtion (= something) that needs to be do to get saved.
Besides of that nowhere it's said blasphemy of the holy spirit makes people loosing salvation.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
You are absolutely, totally helpless to save yourself. You must make a wise decision in order to be saved.
No you aren't helpless to save yourself, you do not need to make any "decisions" to be saved. You just need to not be committing blasphemy of the holy spirit.
Nothing means nothing. You just added a condtion (= something) that needs to be do to get saved.
Besides of that nowhere it's said blasphemy of the holy spirit makes people loosing salvation.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
God controls all things. God doesn't control man's free will.
God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.
I can I agree with that Nes. But don't you agree He controlea all things that matter? We can argue what exactly matters; but I think the eternal destiny of His creation is high on the list.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
We can't boast about going to heaven. If we go to hell, it's our own fault.
That's correct, you are without excuse.
That's not what the quote is about.
We can't boast about going to heaven means:
a] We are to evil/veiled/blinded/etc to earn heaven
b] We can only enter heaven by grace.
That simply means 100% of humanity (minus Jesus) is without excuse.
So "without excuse"has nothing to do with salvation.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Men are in bondage to sin. Men are free to choose Christ.
Men are free to reject christ.
Being bondage to sin means men don't have luxary of choice. Bondage means tied down so you can't move. Can't move to the light.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Grace is unmerited favor... ... given only to those who merit it with faith and obedience.
It's given to everybody, such as when god delays judgement to the lake of fire.
So God puts everyone in the bondage of sin and then judges them because they are in bondage?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MANKIND (1 Tim. 4:10)... ... except for about ninety percent of them.
That's correct, he is the savior of mankind, but people reject it.
A savior is someone that saves. No excuses. Just save. The rejecting is because the bondage to sin.
If all people would reject His teaching/gift would He still be a savior? (saved 0 people)
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD'S LOVE IN UNCONDITIONAL... ... as long as you meet certain conditions.
Just because somebody goes to the lake of fire does not mean that god does not love the person. God loves people on earth even though he didn't make contact with those people. You don't need to feel love by god to be loved by him.
If torturing someone in a lava pit without a end is love I wonder what hate is.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD'S WILL IS UNOPPOSABLE... ... except by the sinner.
God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.
But it is God's will to submit all to vanity. To veil everyone. To make everyone bondage to sin. Send a strong delusion. Etc
How can people chose when God did all the things mentioned above.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Salvation is not a thing of chance. There is no second chance to be saved.
Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved.
True. The main question is does everyone call out?
Is the veil ripped away so a person can call out?
If not it's chance.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
WE HAVE GOOD NEWS FOR YOU! Most of mankind will perish forever.
The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead. Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.
If Jesus says He came to save the world He lied for 60%.
Besides of that your view is very unbiblical.
Jesus reduced the unsave from 100% to X% (X depends on the religious views)
Reducing from 90% to 60% means 10% saved themselfs. The Bible clearly stated nobody earned heaven. (except Jesus)
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
GOD LOVES YOU! ... as long as you love Him.
You don't have the capability to love him. Jesus said obey my commandments to show your love.
We are not capable and but must show love by following commandments. That's a contradiction.
Plus of course many don't believe Jesus because of the veil.
It's like locking up a child in jail and then be angry because it was to late for school....
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
Christ died for all sin... ... except the sin of not believing that He died for all sin.
You need to have a clean heart and not one of a dirty rag. Having your sins forgiven does not get you a new heart.
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
Christ is the savior of the world, christ is everyone's savior unless the person rejects his gift.
It says He taketh away all sin. But in your view it's only a certain type or amount of sin?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.
So the Good Shepherd is a failure?
The shepherd of the parable of the 100 sheep wasn't about Jesus I guess?
Jesus only saves 60 sheep. Very special sheep. Usually a shepherd searches for the sheep.
But those 60 special sheep are blindfolded. Then the Shepherd hides and just hopes the sheep save themselves.
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
God's justice was satisfied in the cross of Christ. God's justice demands eternal torment or annihilation.
God's justice (for everyone) was not satisfied in the cross of Christ, it never says that in the bible.
The wages of sin is death. Jesus paid in full.
Nes, take a look at this:
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
--John 1
If I take that completely literally, what is it saying?
"behold"
G2396
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
Look at him! What do you see?
the Lamb of God ho amnos theos
which taketh away airo
the sin ho hamartia
of the world ho kosmos
!!!
Quote from: nes on January 20, 2011, 02:58:02 AM
God does not literally control all things, god isn't controlling my hands typing this on the keyboard.
True you are controlling your hands. Yet God can indirectly control what you are typing. If God hardened your heart you would be typing something different vs. if He did not harden your heart. Likewise if He sent you a strong delusion vs. He opened your eyes to seeing a different understanding. These things would all "control" what you actually decided to do.
Quote
God's will doesn't involve forcefully changing someone's decision and choosing to reject christ.
Love is a force that can change men's minds.
Quote
Not true, you can call out to the lord to be saved.
And everyone will come and confess to the Lord (Psalm 22:27, Phil 2:9-11, Romans 14:11-12). They will even swear allegiance (Isaiah 45:22-23).
Quote
The good news is that instead of 90% of mankind perishing forever, about 60% will instead. Just because a lot of people choose to reject christ does not mean that god will tell lies.
Wow some good news. The majority is still in pain forever.
Quote
No where does it say that christ died for all sin.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Quote
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 19, 2011, 09:35:35 AM
The Good Shepherd seeks the lost sheep until he finds it! The Good Shepherd seeks until it's too late.
Seeking is not getting, you can seek a million dollars but that doesn't mean you'll get a million dollars.
Jesus can't find everyone He wants? According to you He's not very good at seeking I guess... Jesus: 0, Hell: 1.
Good news! Jesus can't find you...
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2011, 10:51:26 AM
Nes, take a look at this:
29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
--John 1
If I take that completely literally, what is it saying?
"behold"
G2396
ἴδε
ide
id'-eh
Second person singular imperative active of G1492; used as interjection to denote surprise; lo!: - behold, lo, see.
Look at him! What do you see?
the Lamb of God ho amnos theos
which taketh away airo
the sin ho hamartia
of the world ho kosmos
!!!
The "which taketh away" (airōn in this verse) could be mistranslated.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm)
Original Word: αἴρω
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm
(http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm)
It could also be translated to "takes away". Which would mean that jesus takes away (active verb) sin from the world, but not taken away (past tense) all sin from the world.
EDIT: The greek used appears to be an active verb. Look how biblos translates airōn,"who takes away". The word is labelled as V-PAP-NSM (http://biblos.com/abbrev.htm) (Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine). So it looks like the "n" added at the end of the greek word "airo" changes it from past tense to present tense.
So in the actual greek scriptures, it does not say airo, it says airōn.
Hi Nes,
WB!
Yes, that's present tense--'taketh' is present tense king james style.
I like meditating on one verse at a time. In this verse, John is calling us into the present tense to Look! 'which taketh away' denotes a continuous action in the present tense. The lamb was offered every day in the Temple. Can you see the continuous quality of it in the sense of renewing our mind daily? what about in the sense of the blood of Christ always being present and able to cover sin? Now and forever. Amen.
New Living Translation (©2007)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The next day - The day after the Jews made inquiry whether he was the Christ.
Behold the Lamb of God - A "lamb," among the Jews, was killed and eaten at the Passover to commemorate their deliverance from Egypt, Exodus 12:3-11. A lamb was offered in the tabernacle, and afterward in the temple, every morning and evening, as a part of the daily worship, Exodus 29:38-39. The Messiah was predicted as a lamb led to the slaughter, to show his patience in his sufferings, and readiness to die for man, Isaiah 53:7. A lamb, among the Jews, was also an emblem of patience, meekness, gentleness. On "all" these accounts, rather than on any one of them alone, Jesus was called "the Lamb." He was innocent 1 Peter 2:23-25; he was a sacrifice for sin the substance represented by the daily offering of the lamb, and slain at the usual time of the evening sacrifice Luke 23:44-46; and he was what was represented by the Passover, turning away the anger of God, and saving sinners by his blood from vengeance and eternal death, 1 Corinthians 5:7.
Of God - Appointed by God, approved by God, and most dear to him; the sacrifice which he chose, and which he approves to save people from death.
Which taketh away - This denotes his "bearing" the sins of the world, or the sufferings which made an atonement for sin. Compare Isaiah 53:4; 1 John 3:5; 1 Peter 2:24. He takes away sin by "bearing" in his own body the sufferings which God appointed to show his sense of the evil of sin, thus magnifying the law, and rendering it consistent for him to pardon. See the notes at Romans 3:24-25.
Of the world - Of all mankind, Jew and Gentile. His work was not to be confined to the Jew, but was also to benefit the Gentile; it was not confined to any one part of the world, but was designed to open the way of pardon to all men. He was the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. See the notes at 2 Corinthians 5:15.
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Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
The next day - The day after that on which the Jews had been with John, John 1:19.
Behold the Lamb of God, etc. - This was said in allusion to what was spoken Isaiah 53:7. Jesus was the true Lamb or Sacrifice required and appointed by God, of which those offered daily in the tabernacle and temple, Exodus 29:38, Exodus 29:39, and especially the paschal lamb, were only the types and representatives. See Exodus 12:4, Exodus 12:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7. The continual morning and evening sacrifice of a lamb, under the Jewish law, was intended to point out the continual efficacy of the blood of atonement: for even at the throne of God, Jesus Christ is ever represented as a lamb newly slain, Revelation 5:6. But John, pointing to Christ, calls him emphatically, the Lamb of God: - all the lambs which had been hitherto offered had been furnished by men: this was provided by God, as the only sufficient and available sacrifice for the sin of the world. In three essential respects, this lamb differed from those by which it was represented.
1st. It was the Lamb of God; the most excellent, and the most available.
2nd. It made an atonement for sin: it carried sin away in reality, the others only representatively.
3rd. It carried away the sin of the World, whereas the other was offered only on behalf of the Jewish people. In Yalcut Rubeni, fol. 30, it is said, "The Messiah shall bear the sins of the Israelites." But this salvation was now to be extended to the whole world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Vincent's Word Studies
John
The best texts omit.
Seeth (βλέπει)
Both ὁράω and βλέπω denote the physical act of seeing, the former seeing in general, the latter the single look. The perception indicated by βλέπω is more outward; the perception of sense as distinguished from mental discernment, which is prominent in ὁράω. A look told the Baptist that the Mightier One had come. See on John 1:18, and see on Matthew 7:3.
Unto (πρὸς)
Strictly, towards.
Behold (ἴδε)
The imperative in the singular number, though the company of his followers is addressed. This construction, however, is not uncommon. See Matthew 26:65; Acts 13:46.
The Lamb (ὁ ἀμνὸς)
The word occurs in John only here and in John 1:36. Also in Acts 8:32; 1 Peter 1:19. The diminutive ἀρνίον, a little lamb, is found once in the Gospel (John 21:15), often in Revelation, but only of the glorified Redeemer, and nowhere else in the New Testament. In some instances the word may emphasize the gentle and innocent character of Jesus suffering to expiate the sins of men (Revelation 5:6, Revelation 5:12; Revelation 13:8); but it is also employed in describing Him as indignant (Revelation 6:16); as victorious (Revelation 17:4); as the object of adoration (Revelation 5:8); and as enthroned (Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:17).
The term, the Lamb of God (note the article), is evidently used here by the Baptist in some sense understood by his hearers, and points to Isaiah 53:7; compare Acts 8:32. The reference is probably to the Paschal lamb, though commentators differ.
Of God
Provided by God for sacrifice.
That taketh away (ὁ αἴρων)
continued...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geneva Study Bible
{13} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold {n} the Lamb of God, which {o} taketh away the {p} sin of the world.
(13) The body and truth of all the sacrifices of the law, to make satisfaction for the sin of the world, is Christ.
(n) This word the which is added has great force in it, not only to set forth the worthiness of Christ, and so to separate him for the lamb which was a symbol of him, and from all other sacrifices of the law, but also to remind us of the prophecies of Isaiah and others.
(o) This word is in the present tense, and signifies a continuous act, for the Lamb rightfully has this power both now and forever to take away the sins of the world.
Nes isn't here to join in rest, he's here to do warfare . . . whcih if only he came a couple years ago then I could battle back . . .But God went and turned my weapons into plowshares . . .dang it!! :dontknow:
He's here to do warfare? Alas, blessed are the peacemakers...If I remember the words of my Lord correctly.
It was unfortunate enough for me to learn that fact first hand...
But at any rate, it all comes down to a very simple point.
If Hell isn't remedial, then it is not just.
Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2011, 01:12:41 AM
Nes isn't here to join in rest, he's here to do warfare . . . whcih if only he came a couple years ago then I could battle back . . .But God went and turned my weapons into plowshares . . .dang it!! :dontknow:
Well said Nathan! Swords into plowshares ...
Quote from: nes on February 28, 2011, 09:54:38 AM
The "which taketh away" (airōn in this verse) could be mistranslated.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm (http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/142.htm)
Original Word: αἴρω
Definition: I raise, lift up, take away, remove.
http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm
(http://biblos.com/john/1-29.htm)
It could also be translated to "takes away". Which would mean that jesus takes away (active verb) sin from the world, but not taken away (past tense) all sin from the world.
EDIT: The greek used appears to be an active verb. Look how biblos translates airōn,"who takes away". The word is labelled as V-PAP-NSM (http://biblos.com/abbrev.htm) (Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine). So it looks like the "n" added at the end of the greek word "airo" changes it from past tense to present tense.
So in the actual greek scriptures, it does not say airo, it says airōn.
In that line of reasoning all OT people are doomed. And of course the vast majority of the NT people. Simply because the present tense was present tense 2000 years ago. Jesus isn't taking away sins anymore. Even worse people during His ministry were doomed just as well. When He forgave someone his/her sin He was just talking about the sins of that day. Not the sins the person commited 10 years ago.
I think when Jesus forgave someone his/her sins it were all sins the person ever commited. Also the sins of the past. Now look at the wold as a person. Jesus took away the sins commited during the existance of the world.
Tense-Present
The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases
this corresponds directly with the English present tense.
Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are
termed "historical presents, " and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur. Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.
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Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball, " the boy performs the action.
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Mood-Participle
The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the
English participle, reflecting "- ing" or "- ed" being suffixed
to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either
like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed
a "verbal noun."