No one gets out of Hell?

[thinktank]

ok, but I don't belive a familar spirit did raise him from the dead but a witch, a woman. I don't know what power witches have, whether this power is available to them I don't know. But there are many people today who go to certain women to ask about their dead relatives etc.

[micah7:9]

ok, but I don't belive a familar spirit did raise him from the dead but a witch, a woman. I don't know what power witches have, whether this power is available to them I don't know. But there are many people today who go to certain women to ask about their dead relatives etc.

A witch is a familar spirit.

[thinktank]

I think the book of acts says that a woman who has a familiar spirit followed Paul. There is nothing familiar about a witch, but a spirit can be familiar with a witch.

:2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't think she did it in the first place. I think God allowed it, because Saul had been obeying the law about not suffering a witch to live, WHEN IT SUITED HIM. He was doing an outward obedience, but it was not because of righteousness for righteousness's sake. That was why she was so freaked out and thought Saul tricked her, to have "cause" to kill her for her sin, when I think in fact it was God who tricked Saul, reproving him with his own wickedness......
my  :2c:

[Lefein]

I personally don't think the witch raised Samuel either, she was indeed quite surprised after all, I suspect that like most mediums these days; she's a fraud playing with fire.

I think God however took the opportunity to pretty much shut Saul up, by letting the witch (and maybe Saul himself) see "into the unseen" Sheol/Hades/Unseen, and get the message.

[nes]

Eternal Damnationists often synonymise The Bottomless Pit as being Hell also, or at least a part of it.

So...Eternal Damnationism is pretty clear on its teachings - once inside, you don't get out.  Right?  Certainly it wouldn't be Eternal if you could escape from Hell, now would it?  :laughing7:

Hell is the lake of fire and the second death for us.  Jesus did not go to the lake of fire or hell, but instead to sheol, or the place of the dead/hades.  Hell and hades have been mistranslated in many bible versions.
Revelation 20:11–15 -- hades will be thrown in the lake of fire.

So!  This begs the question...Why is it that Satan, The Adversary, the worst sinner of literally all time, and possibly even before time began - is let loose for a little season after going to Hell?

The price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death.  Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).  Once in the lake of fire, there is no way out other than by killing sin itself, the sentence is death which means nobody will ever get out until the sin stops existing. 

And for that matter, if he can get out, and is in fact set loose why can't Bob the unsaved man down the street be let out?  I'm pretty sure he isn't quite as awful as our Adversary in the eyes of God who is no respecter of persons - Devil, Man, Angel, or otherwise.

Satan can not get out of the lake of fire once placed in there.  Bob the unsaved man can't be let in heaven because it would set a precedent and make heaven unholy, evil would never be destroyed and god's promises about everyone being sinless in heaven and everyone unable to sin would be broken.  God is just and doesn't just favor one person over another.  It would be easier for the world to pass away than for any part of the law, which is what god knows is right and wrong, to be changed.  Since hating or lusting is a sin as said in the bible, then hating god is a sin.  If somebody hates god, how could they be forgiven if they are in a state of constant sinning?

[WhiteWings]

Hell is the lake of fire and the second death for us.  Jesus did not go to the lake of fire or hell, but instead to sheol, or the place of the dead/hades.  Hell and hades have been mistranslated in many bible versions.
Revelation 20:11–15 -- hades will be thrown in the lake of fire.

Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?

The price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death.  Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).

God changed is mind?

And for that matter, if he can get out, and is in fact set loose why can't Bob the unsaved man down the street be let out?  I'm pretty sure he isn't quite as awful as our Adversary in the eyes of God who is no respecter of persons - Devil, Man, Angel, or otherwise.

Satan can not get out of the lake of fire once placed in there.  Bob the unsaved man can't be let in heaven because it would set a precedent and make heaven unholy, evil would never be destroyed and god's promises about everyone being sinless in heaven and everyone unable to sin would be broken.

Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF

[nes]

Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?

You mean revelation 21:4??

It doesn't say that everyone's tears will be wiped away, it says "their".  You should read the chapter 20 and 21 of revelation instead of picking one verse without context of revelations.

The price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death.  Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).

God changed is mind?

No, God cannot do what he said he would do, that would be a lie.  God said that everyone born of flesh will one day be judged and the punishment is death.  Should god do something different then it would mean that god lied to us.  It's impossible for god to sin.

Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF

No eternal relation to the people cast in LoF??

Matt. 25:46  "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."

So the entire bible is full of trickery?  Why would aionion life mean forever having life but aionion punishment mean punishment for a period of time. 

It doesn't say why paul changed his name, nor does it say about any name changes when somebody believes.  Who else got their name changed, nobody else?  He was a pharisee and must've been so disgraced about what he once was, who knows.

[WhiteWings]

Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?

You mean revelation 21:4??

It doesn't say that everyone's tears will be wiped away, it says "their".  You should read the chapter 20 and 21 of revelation instead of picking one verse without context of revelations.

Ok. So when "their" tears are wiped away the people that are being roasted in hell no longer feel pain and sorrow?

The price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death.  Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).

God changed is mind?

No, God cannot do what he said he would do, that would be a lie.  God said that everyone born of flesh will one day be judged and the punishment is death.  Should god do something different then it would mean that god lied to us.  It's impossible for god to sin.

Then why does God cast humans into a Lake created for the devil and his angels?

Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF

No eternal relation to the people cast in LoF??

That was not very clear I think :mblush:
I mean the original language uses "age" instead of "eternal" in the LoF verse.

Matt. 25:46  "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."

So the entire bible is full of trickery?  Why would aionion life mean forever having life but aionion punishment mean punishment for a period of time. 

Because they both mean a period of time!
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"
When God is all in all then eternity starts for everyone.
Please look at THIS article.
It shows the plan of the ages in chart format.
Without understanding that plan I think the Bible indeed looks full of trickery as you call it.

It doesn't say why paul changed his name, nor does it say about any name changes when somebody believes.  Who else got their name changed, nobody else?  He was a pharisee and must've been so disgraced about what he once was, who knows.

Many in the OT got their name changed. But that's not my point. Saul wasn't a Christian. He didn't seek Jesus. He did everything he could to wiped out everything Jesus has thaught by lot of killing. I mentioned that because many people use wrong reasoning when they say it's impossible for God to let sinner in heaven because that would make heaven unholy.
I agree with sinners in heaven it would be/become unholy. The reason I mentioned Paul/Saul was that he was changed from a sinner into one of the leader men of Christianity. He was changed against his will. He hated Jesus very much until the moment he was caught in the light from heaven. So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?

[nes]

Ok. So when "their" tears are wiped away the people that are being roasted in hell no longer feel pain and sorrow?

It references those people didn't go to the lake of fire after the recent final judgment.  While "...the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."  revelation 21:8

Then why does God cast humans into a Lake created for the devil and his angels?

Anyone not with him is against him. 
Mt. 25:41  "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

"Those" refers to humans, so even in this same verse it says depart from me humans to the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matt. 25:46  "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"

So the righteous only get life for a period of time?  What is the purpose of matt 25:46?

So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?

People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved. 

[WhiteWings]

Matt. 25:46  "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"

So the righteous only get life for a period of time?  What is the purpose of matt 25:46?

A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?

So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?

People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.

Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?

[Molly]

Nes--Rev 21:8

...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

"part"

G3313
μέρος
meros
mer'-os
From an obsolete but more primary form of μείρομαι meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application): - behalf, coast, course, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort (-what).


So their portion--isn't that a strange way to put it?  It sounds like the lake of fire can be portioned out, according to one's share, no more, no less.

Nes--why is it called a 'lake'?

"lake" [of fire]

G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.


All those people who ever lived and sinned without repentence going into a pond? forever?  Why not an ocean?  an ocean of fire at least?


PS. I'd be careful about the NIV.  In particular, who would copyright the Bible?  Scribes! lol

[nes]

So the righteous only get life for a period of time?  What is the purpose of matt 25:46?

A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?

That makes no sense.

So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?

People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.

Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?

Jesus doesn't save non-believers.  The word used for repent in the bible may mean to change one's mind or feel sorry/regret.  I don't believe that it is too late for somebody in the LoF to be unable to get out.  However, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF. 

Nes--Rev 21:8

...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

"part"

So their portion--isn't that a strange way to put it?  It sounds like the lake of fire can be portioned out, according to one's share, no more, no less.

They aren't being given ownership of the lake of fire, so it's not a strange way to put it.  Words have been used idiomatically in the bible.

Nes--why is it called a 'lake'?
"lake" [of fire]
All those people who ever lived and sinned without repentence going into a pond? forever?  Why not an ocean?  an ocean of fire at least?

Probably because the fire surrounds you like water, burning you from the tip of your toe to the top skin on your head.  That's correct, anyone who has sin when they are judged will go to the lake of fire. 

PS. I'd be careful about the NIV.  In particular, who would copyright the Bible?  Scribes! lol

The copyright allows you to quote the niv, but not to modify it.

[Molly]

Jesus doesn't save non-believers

Do you think anyone seeing Jesus or hearing Jesus could continue to be a non believer?

...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10

Jesus is there!

Could that possibly be the source of torment for these, knowing what they have done to the Son of God, as it was for Paul his entire [post conversion] life?

[nes]

Do you think anyone seeing Jesus or hearing Jesus could continue to be a non believer?

Absolutely, it wasn't just a coincidence that I put "call upon the lord" in quotations.
Judas seen jesus, heard him, and seen his miracles, yet betrayed him. 
Judas was NOT a believer even though he materially knew a ton of information about jesus.

...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10
Jesus is there!
Could that possibly be the source of torment for these, knowing what they have done to the Son of God, as it was for Paul his entire [post conversion] life?

No, the source of torment is the fire and brimstone.  That's why it says "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone."  I believe that the brimstone is hot so it burns as well.

[Molly]

Judas seen jesus, heard him, and seen his miracles, yet betrayed him. 
Judas was NOT a believer even though he materially knew a ton of information about jesus.

I was thinking about Jesus in his glorified form, as he would be in the presence of those in the lake of fire.

I believe that the brimstone is hot so it burns as well.

How do you burn someone who is not flesh?  Or, if they are flesh, how do you burn them 'forever'?

[WhiteWings]

So the righteous only get life for a period of time?  What is the purpose of matt 25:46?

A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?

That makes no sense.

So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?

People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.

Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?

Jesus doesn't save non-believers.

He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.

The word used for repent in the bible may mean to change one's mind or feel sorry/regret.  I don't believe that it is too late for somebody in the LoF to be unable to get out.

Agreed.

However, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.

In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just ti make fun of people

[nes]

He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.

And he was apparently unable to get the pharisees to become believers.

However, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.

In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just ti make fun of people

Jesus won't be in the lake of fire for all eternity, lol.

Revelation 14:10 
"they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. "

The presence of the holy angels and the lamb will be temporary, it is a temporary presence, since jesus will be at other places later in the bible.  I believe the presence is for those in the LoF to be put to shame.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

[Molly]

Jesus is in the presence of those in the lake of fire and what does he say?

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

--Rev 22


Would anyone turn that down?

Jesus is there!  And when did he stop being the Saviour of the world?

[WhiteWings]

He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.

And he was apparently unable to get the pharisees to become believers.

However, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.

In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just to make fun of people

Jesus won't be in the lake of fire for all eternity, lol.

No He won't.
No need for that if everyone is out of LoF because tests show they are pure.
Tormented:
βασανίζω
basanizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Sounds a bit like a refiners fire, doesn't it?

So viewed from your fantasy world why would Jesus watch and test for say a few months?

since jesus will be at other places later in the bible

So are the people in LoF.

[Molly]

...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10


Jesus is there for men in his position as the Lamb.  Who is the Lamb and what is his function?



John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[nes]

Jesus is in the presence of those in the lake of fire and what does he say?

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

--Rev 22

I got no IDEA how you thought jesus was in the lake of fire when he said that!!  Rev 21:9-10 proves it.  And this comes RIGHT AFTER the rev 21:8 verse.

One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

That's the bride.  So

Would anyone turn that down?
Jesus is there!  And when did he stop being the Saviour of the world?

They inadvertently turn it down because they do not believe that jesus is lord, and when in hell, there is the additional requirement that they must come to jesus, jesus does not come to them.  Jesus won't deny anyone that comes to him, but he won't reach out his hand to those that continue to not believe him as lord. 

The reason for being turned down may be because they believe in a jesus that never existed is lord.  Jesus warned of false christs that will deceive.  If I were to believe that jesus is sinful, then I wouldn't be believing in the jesus that does exists.  And if I (only) believe in a jesus that does not exist, then I can't say that the jesus that does exist is lord.  This is what makes universal salvation, catholicism, mormonism, and jehovah's witnesses gravely dangerous to believe in. 

No wonder why somebody saying "lord lord" can get the reply "I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoer" from jesus.  Jesus wouldn't actually reply "I never knew you", it just shows that the person saying "lord lord" doesn't know jesus.  (matt 7:23)

[Taffy]

Hi nes :icon_flower:
Ive always found this most interesting-  Why does  Hades Get Cast [ Ballo"]into so CALLED Hell itself [ LOF], Tarturus, Hades sheol and Gehenna [ Translated HELL] is NOT the Definition of the LOF- so please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  :icon_flower:

if one checks  cast, IT means Pours out , AS into a River ]be it the fact REV 1 noted that Revelation is signified[ figurative]

theres No reference of DEATH-to anyone - - its Death and the Grave which pours into it-- so if the LOF isnt Hades[ Hell] what can it be? :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Hi nes :icon_flower:
please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:

Yes, especially since 'hell' is a mistranslation and error to begin with.

[nes]

Hi nes :icon_flower:
Ive always found this most interesting-  Why does  Hades Get Cast [ Ballo"]into so CALLED Hell itself [ LOF], Tarturus, Hades sheol and Gehenna [ Translated HELL] is NOT the Definition of the LOF- so please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:

It doesn't matter because the people in hades are waiting to be judged.  Hell is a generic term that people can understand.  And being sent to hades most likely means that you don't "believe in" jesus.  And if you do not "believe in" jesus at judgment, then you will be sentenced to death, which is at the lake of fire. 

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  :icon_flower:

if one checks  cast, IT means Pours out , AS into a River ]be it the fact REV 1 noted that Revelation is signified[ figurative]

theres No reference of DEATH-to anyone - - its Death and the Grave which pours into it-- so if the LOF isnt Hades[ Hell] what can it be? :icon_flower:

The lake of fire is the second death as shown in Rev. 21:8.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Why would it say in the bible that ANYONE would be consigned to the lake of fire?  I thought nobody has sent over there?

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 uses the word "those", which means a group of people.  Revelation 20:6 does not say everyone.  So if not everyone shares in the first resurrection, then the second death does "have power" over them.  This also proves that the second death applies to humans.  There are way too many coincidences all over the bible to even consider universal salvation as true.