Eternal Damnationists often synonymise The Bottomless Pit as being Hell also, or at least a part of it.
So...Eternal Damnationism is pretty clear on its teachings - once inside, you don't get out. Right? Certainly it wouldn't be Eternal if you could escape from Hell, now would it? :laughing7:
So! This begs the question...Why is it that Satan, The Adversary, the worst sinner of literally all time, and possibly even before time began - is let loose for a little season after going to Hell?
And for that matter, if he can get out, and is in fact set loose why can't Bob the unsaved man down the street be let out? I'm pretty sure he isn't quite as awful as our Adversary in the eyes of God who is no respecter of persons - Devil, Man, Angel, or otherwise.
I watched a utube video the other day.
The guy on it said "I went to hell and noone ever gets out of there!!!"
Yet...he did.
:2c:
I saw a video aswell the other day where the pastor said he died and went to hell, because he refused to preach about certain doctrines. What happened to the blood that saves, if even pastors go there.
:cloud9: Interesting. Wonder what doctrines he refused to preach? :mshock:
Probably tithing... :msealed:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
The Baptist believe that when you die you either go to heaven or hell. They quote the verse that says , "hell is never full". I was just thinking, if people have been in hell since the beginning of time and Satan is still running around doing his thing, doesn't that mean a lot of people will be punished longer than Satan? :mshock: Yet Satan is suppose to be the one who caused people to go to hell in the first place. If hell is true shouldn't Satan be the one who gets to stay in there the longest? Yet, Satan gets the shorter punishment of all. Would that make God a just God? :mshock: I wonder how they would explain this? Also, since God created Satan in the first place, shouldn't he take part of the blame?
Just some thoughts I had.
CHB
Amen CHB, I was just talking to a friend last night about this very same issue.
Quote from: Cardinal on October 25, 2010, 01:27:56 AM
:cloud9: Interesting. Wonder what doctrines he refused to preach? :mshock:
The deliverance ministry, he had good experience of such things in the past because he was involved with vodoo when he was young.
Wow, what an odd thing to go to Hell for...
"I have delivered you! And now that you won't preach this, or that, I will arbitrarily pick you out of the thousands of preachers who aren't even preaching a thing like what I want them to preach while passing it off as the Holy Ghost - and toss you into Hell even if you're saved by my blood...in essence, showing myself to be an omnipresent hypocrite, delivering you, just so I can undeliver you for not trying hard enough."
-Eternal Damnationalist Legalistic version of God
Quote from: Lefein on October 25, 2010, 07:46:45 PM
Wow, what an odd thing to go to Hell for...
"I have delivered you! And now that you won't preach this, or that, I will arbitrarily pick you out of the thousands of preachers who aren't even preaching a thing like what I want them to preach while passing it off as the Holy Ghost - and toss you into Hell even if you're saved by my blood...in essence, showing myself to be an omnipresent hypocrite, delivering you, just so I can undeliver you for not trying hard enough."
-Eternal Damnationalist Legalistic version of God
I was thinking the same thing, but why did he have this NDE? Perhaps he needed to be delivered himself.
But interestingly concerning NDE is that the experience tends to be very broad. I heard one universalist say that NDE is based not on reality but based upon the perceived reality of the spirit that is experiencing it. So a spirtit man who believes his sins needs to be punished, will experince a hellish NDE experience, while those who believe they deserve to go to heaven, have a heaven experience. Often the heaven experiences are very different from one another, so perhaps the heaven they go to is not the real heaven where God dwells, but is an imagined scenario played out by their spirit. The reason could be that in the spirit anything is possible, so one can imagine any numer of things while in the spirit world and experience them. Maybe this is the hell that Jesus saves us from, that without his blod covering, we are left with our own imaginations, which could be hellish.
This info has not been thought out for long though. :2c:
:2c:
Perhaps an NDE is merely...Soul-dream. Afterall, if not everyone is going to sleep, then maybe some do indeed sleep and dream before waking up into Reality?
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2010, 07:34:25 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on October 25, 2010, 01:27:56 AM
:cloud9: Interesting. Wonder what doctrines he refused to preach? :mshock:
The deliverance ministry, he had good experience of such things in the past because he was involved with vodoo when he was young.
:cloud9: You are held accountable for what you know.....
Quote from: thinktank on October 25, 2010, 08:11:57 PM
Maybe this is the hell that Jesus saves us from, that without his blood covering, we are left with our own imaginations, which could be hellish.
This info has not been thought out for long though. :2c:
:2c:
:cloud9: You're getting warmer..... :winkgrin:
The Word says everyone will get out of Hell (or Death, Hades, Gehenna, wherever they shall be, I'm not an expert on afterlife) for judgment. And that Hell itself will be destroyed in teh Lake of Fire. So much for an eternal hell...
Quote from: Aleax on November 05, 2010, 10:06:24 AM
The Word says everyone will get out of Hell (or Death, Hades, Gehenna, wherever they shall be, I'm not an expert on afterlife) for judgment. And that Hell itself will be destroyed in teh Lake of Fire. So much for an eternal hell...
We have an example that Jesus was not the only one who can raise the dead.
Saul and the familiar spirit of 1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman,
Whom shall I bring up for thee? And he said, Samuel, bring thou up for me.
1Sa 28:12 And, when the woman saw Samuel, she made outcry with a loud voice,—and the woman spake unto Saul, saying—Wherefore hast thou deceived me, thou thyself being Saul?
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her—Be not afraid, but what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, A god, saw I,
coming up out of the earth. 1Sa 28:14 And he said to her—What was his form? And she said—An old man, coming up, he being wrapped about with a robe. Then Saul knew, that it was, Samuel, so he inclined his face to the earth, and bowed himself down.
This is at least what I have found is the belief of some on this site, that the human being has power to raise the dead
1Sa 28:14 And he said to her—What was his form? And she said—An old man, coming up, he being wrapped about with a robe. Then Saul knew, that it was, Samuel, so he inclined his face to the earth, and bowed himself down.
I didn't notice that before, that brings greater confirmation that it is indeed samuel
:cloud9: Amen.....:thumbsup:
Quote from: thinktank on November 07, 2010, 01:36:08 AM
1Sa 28:14 And he said to her—What was his form? And she said—An old man, coming up, he being wrapped about with a robe. Then Saul knew, that it was, Samuel, so he inclined his face to the earth, and bowed himself down.
I didn't notice that before, that brings greater confirmation that it is indeed samuel
Of course Saul KNEW, he is the very guy who wished him conjered up! You people seem to have the weakness to believe what humans have a desire to accept. Tell me what did Samuel say that Saul had not been told verses before?
Does a demon speak all truth ?
I believe I have mentioned this before, it is my contention that Jesus is the only one who has the power to raise the dead. I will not and I cannot believe the rasing of the dead was done by a familar spirit. Believe that poppycock if you have a mind to.
I think other men of faith could raise the dead not just Jesus. Read the book of Hebrews :cloud9:
I don't see that what Samuel said is necessarrily holy spirit revealtion, but it seems to indicate that he knew it was him. I'm curious if they ever met each other in life, because if they did not how did he know it was him, unless the spirit of God told him, and if that, then the spirit only speaks truth.
:2c:
Micah; There is a lot more poppycock than what one of your brothers believes by his own understanding...that your other brothers might cling to as absolute truth according to their different understanding.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 12:01:28 AM
I think other men of faith could raise the dead not just Jesus. Read the book of Hebrews :cloud9:
I don't see that what Samuel said is necessarrily holy spirit revealtion, but it seems to indicate that he knew it was him. I'm curious if they ever met each other in life, because if they did not how did he know it was him, unless the spirit of God told him, and if that, then the spirit only speaks truth.
:2c:
I stand corrected. Yet I will contend that what happen to Samuel was not raised from the dead by a familar spirit.
ok, but I don't belive a familar spirit did raise him from the dead but a witch, a woman. I don't know what power witches have, whether this power is available to them I don't know. But there are many people today who go to certain women to ask about their dead relatives etc.
Quote from: thinktank on November 08, 2010, 02:06:28 AM
ok, but I don't belive a familar spirit did raise him from the dead but a witch, a woman. I don't know what power witches have, whether this power is available to them I don't know. But there are many people today who go to certain women to ask about their dead relatives etc.
A witch is a familar spirit.
I think the book of acts says that a woman who has a familiar spirit followed Paul. There is nothing familiar about a witch, but a spirit can be familiar with a witch.
:2c:
:cloud9: I don't think she did it in the first place. I think God allowed it, because Saul had been obeying the law about not suffering a witch to live, WHEN IT SUITED HIM. He was doing an outward obedience, but it was not because of righteousness for righteousness's sake. That was why she was so freaked out and thought Saul tricked her, to have "cause" to kill her for her sin, when I think in fact it was God who tricked Saul, reproving him with his own wickedness......
my :2c:
I personally don't think the witch raised Samuel either, she was indeed quite surprised after all, I suspect that like most mediums these days; she's a fraud playing with fire.
I think God however took the opportunity to pretty much shut Saul up, by letting the witch (and maybe Saul himself) see "into the unseen" Sheol/Hades/Unseen, and get the message.
Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:27:26 PM
Eternal Damnationists often synonymise The Bottomless Pit as being Hell also, or at least a part of it.
So...Eternal Damnationism is pretty clear on its teachings - once inside, you don't get out. Right? Certainly it wouldn't be Eternal if you could escape from Hell, now would it? :laughing7:
Hell is the lake of fire and the second death for us. Jesus did not go to the lake of fire or hell, but instead to sheol, or the place of the dead/hades. Hell and hades have been mistranslated in many bible versions.
Revelation 20:11–15 -- hades will be thrown in the lake of fire.
Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:27:26 PM
So! This begs the question...Why is it that Satan, The Adversary, the worst sinner of literally all time, and possibly even before time began - is let loose for a little season after going to Hell?
The price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death. Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to). Once in the lake of fire, there is no way out other than by killing sin itself, the sentence is death which means nobody will ever get out until the sin stops existing.
Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:27:26 PM
And for that matter, if he can get out, and is in fact set loose why can't Bob the unsaved man down the street be let out? I'm pretty sure he isn't quite as awful as our Adversary in the eyes of God who is no respecter of persons - Devil, Man, Angel, or otherwise.
Satan can not get out of the lake of fire once placed in there. Bob the unsaved man can't be let in heaven because it would set a precedent and make heaven unholy, evil would never be destroyed and god's promises about everyone being sinless in heaven and everyone unable to sin would be broken. God is just and doesn't just favor one person over another. It would be easier for the world to pass away than for any part of the law, which is what god knows is right and wrong, to be changed. Since hating or lusting is a sin as said in the bible, then hating god is a sin. If somebody hates god, how could they be forgiven if they are in a state of constant sinning?
Quote from: nes on January 16, 2011, 12:04:03 PMHell is the lake of fire and the second death for us. Jesus did not go to the lake of fire or hell, but instead to sheol, or the place of the dead/hades. Hell and hades have been mistranslated in many bible versions.
Revelation 20:11–15 -- hades will be thrown in the lake of fire.
Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?
QuoteThe price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death. Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).
God changed is mind?
QuoteQuote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:27:26 PM
And for that matter, if he can get out, and is in fact set loose why can't Bob the unsaved man down the street be let out? I'm pretty sure he isn't quite as awful as our Adversary in the eyes of God who is no respecter of persons - Devil, Man, Angel, or otherwise.
Satan can not get out of the lake of fire once placed in there. Bob the unsaved man can't be let in heaven because it would set a precedent and make heaven unholy, evil would never be destroyed and god's promises about everyone being sinless in heaven and everyone unable to sin would be broken.
Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?
You mean revelation 21:4??
It doesn't say that everyone's tears will be wiped away, it says "their". You should read the chapter 20 and 21 of revelation instead of picking one verse without context of revelations.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
QuoteThe price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death. Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).
God changed is mind?
No, God cannot do what he said he would do, that would be a lie. God said that everyone born of flesh will one day be judged and the punishment is death. Should god do something different then it would mean that god lied to us. It's impossible for god to sin.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF
No eternal relation to the people cast in LoF??
Matt. 25:46 "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
So the entire bible is full of trickery? Why would aionion life mean forever having life but aionion punishment mean punishment for a period of time.
It doesn't say why paul changed his name, nor does it say about any name changes when somebody believes. Who else got their name changed, nobody else? He was a pharisee and must've been so disgraced about what he once was, who knows.
Quote from: nes on January 17, 2011, 09:14:33 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Is that about teh same time pain and suffering ends and God wipes away all tears?
You mean revelation 21:4??
It doesn't say that everyone's tears will be wiped away, it says "their". You should read the chapter 20 and 21 of revelation instead of picking one verse without context of revelations.
Ok. So when "their" tears are wiped away the people that are being roasted in hell no longer feel pain and sorrow?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
QuoteThe price to pay after being judged (condemned) is death. Satan hasn't been judged yet because satan isn't in the lake of fire, which was prepared for angels (but people will end up in there to).
God changed is mind?
No, God cannot do what he said he would do, that would be a lie. God said that everyone born of flesh will one day be judged and the punishment is death. Should god do something different then it would mean that god lied to us. It's impossible for god to sin.
Then why does God cast humans into a Lake created for the devil and his angels?
QuoteQuote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Will Paul ever enter heaven? He onces was called Saul.
Saul was converted. Purified.
And that's exatly is what LoF is all about.
Look up the Greek. Correction and vengance are different words.
Plus as you should know there is no eternal in relation to the people cast in LoF
No eternal relation to the people cast in LoF??
That was not very clear I think :mblush:
I mean the original language uses "age" instead of "eternal" in the LoF verse.
QuoteMatt. 25:46 "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
So the entire bible is full of trickery? Why would aionion life mean forever having life but aionion punishment mean punishment for a period of time.
Because they both mean a period of time!
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"
When God is all in all then eternity starts for everyone.
Please look at THIS (http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=All_about_eons.htm) article.
It shows the plan of the ages in chart format.
Without understanding that plan I think the Bible indeed looks full of trickery as you call it.
QuoteIt doesn't say why paul changed his name, nor does it say about any name changes when somebody believes. Who else got their name changed, nobody else? He was a pharisee and must've been so disgraced about what he once was, who knows.
Many in the OT got their name changed. But that's not my point. Saul wasn't a Christian. He didn't seek Jesus. He did everything he could to wiped out everything Jesus has thaught by lot of killing. I mentioned that because many people use wrong reasoning when they say it's impossible for God to let sinner in heaven because that would make heaven unholy.
I agree with sinners in heaven it would be/become unholy. The reason I mentioned Paul/Saul was that he was changed from a sinner into one of the leader men of Christianity. He was changed against his will. He hated Jesus very much until the moment he was caught in the light from heaven. So if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 09:41:20 AM
Ok. So when "their" tears are wiped away the people that are being roasted in hell no longer feel pain and sorrow?
It references those people didn't go to the lake of fire after the recent final judgment. While "...the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." revelation 21:8
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Then why does God cast humans into a Lake created for the devil and his angels?
Anyone not with him is against him.
Mt. 25:41 "Then he will say to
those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
"Those" refers to humans, so even in this same verse it says depart from me humans to the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Matt. 25:46 "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"
So the righteous only get life for a period of time? What is the purpose of matt 25:46?
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PMSo if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?
People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.
Quote from: nes on January 17, 2011, 10:19:48 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM
Matt. 25:46 "And these will go away into aionion punishment, but the righteous into aionion life."
The verse is not about eternal life at all. AFTER Matt 25:46 there is "more time"
So the righteous only get life for a period of time? What is the purpose of matt 25:46?
A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?
Quote from: NesQuote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PMSo if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?
People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.
Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?
Nes--Rev 21:8
...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.
"part"
G3313
μέρος
meros
mer'-os
From an obsolete but more primary form of μείρομαι meiromai (to get as a section or allotment); a division or share (literally or figuratively, in a wide application): - behalf, coast, course, craft, particular (+ -ly), part (+ -ly), piece, portion, respect, side, some sort (-what).
So their portion--isn't that a strange way to put it? It sounds like the lake of fire can be portioned out, according to one's share, no more, no less.
Nes--why is it called a 'lake'?
"lake" [of fire]
G3041
λίμνη
limnē
lim'-nay
Probably from G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
All those people who ever lived and sinned without repentence going into a pond? forever? Why not an ocean? an ocean of fire at least?
PS. I'd be careful about the NIV. In particular, who would copyright the Bible? Scribes! lol
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Quote
So the righteous only get life for a period of time? What is the purpose of matt 25:46?
A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?
That makes no sense.
Quote from: NesQuote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PMSo if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?
People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.
Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?
Jesus doesn't save non-believers. The word used for repent in the bible may mean to change one's mind or feel sorry/regret. I don't believe that it is too late for somebody in the LoF to be unable to get out. However, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 11:01:42 AM
Nes--Rev 21:8
...shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.
"part"
So their portion--isn't that a strange way to put it? It sounds like the lake of fire can be portioned out, according to one's share, no more, no less.
They aren't being given ownership of the lake of fire, so it's not a strange way to put it. Words have been used idiomatically in the bible.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 11:01:42 AM
Nes--why is it called a 'lake'?
"lake" [of fire]
All those people who ever lived and sinned without repentence going into a pond? forever? Why not an ocean? an ocean of fire at least?
Probably because the fire surrounds you like water, burning you from the tip of your toe to the top skin on your head. That's correct, anyone who has sin when they are judged will go to the lake of fire.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 11:01:42 AM
PS. I'd be careful about the NIV. In particular, who would copyright the Bible? Scribes! lol
The copyright allows you to quote the niv, but not to modify it.
Quote from: nesJesus doesn't save non-believers
Do you think anyone seeing Jesus or hearing Jesus could continue to be a non believer?
...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10
Jesus is there!
Could that possibly be the source of torment for these, knowing what they have done to the Son of God, as it was for Paul his entire [post conversion] life?
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 11:17:32 AM
Do you think anyone seeing Jesus or hearing Jesus could continue to be a non believer?
Absolutely, it wasn't just a coincidence that I put "call upon the lord" in quotations.
Judas seen jesus, heard him, and seen his miracles, yet betrayed him.
Judas was NOT a believer even though he materially knew a ton of information about jesus.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 11:17:32 AM
...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10
Jesus is there!
Could that possibly be the source of torment for these, knowing what they have done to the Son of God, as it was for Paul his entire [post conversion] life?
No, the source of torment is the fire and brimstone. That's why it says "he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone." I believe that the brimstone is hot so it burns as well.
Quote from: nesJudas seen jesus, heard him, and seen his miracles, yet betrayed him.
Judas was NOT a believer even though he materially knew a ton of information about jesus.
I was thinking about Jesus in his glorified form, as he would be in the presence of those in the lake of fire.
QuoteI believe that the brimstone is hot so it burns as well.
How do you burn someone who is not flesh? Or, if they are flesh, how do you burn them 'forever'?
Quote from: nes on January 17, 2011, 11:04:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Quote
So the righteous only get life for a period of time? What is the purpose of matt 25:46?
A thief goes to jail only for a few years. What's the use of that?
That makes no sense.
Quote from: NesQuote from: WhiteWings on January 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PMSo if Saul could be converted in a minute (?) why is it so impossible that people in LoF can't be converted also?
People in the lake of fire can still "call upon the lord" to be saved.
Agreed.
Question: Do you also believe God will save them? Or is it simply to late for them because they didn't repent in this life time?
Jesus doesn't save non-believers.
He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.
QuoteThe word used for repent in the bible may mean to change one's mind or feel sorry/regret. I don't believe that it is too late for somebody in the LoF to be unable to get out.
Agreed.
QuoteHowever, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.
In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just ti make fun of people
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.
And he was apparently unable to get the pharisees to become believers.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
QuoteHowever, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.
In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just ti make fun of people
Jesus won't be in the lake of fire for all eternity, lol.
Revelation 14:10
"they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.
They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. "
The presence of the holy angels and the lamb will be temporary, it is a temporary presence, since jesus will be at other places later in the bible. I believe the presence is for those in the LoF to be put to shame.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment will rise
for ever and ever.
There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Jesus is in the presence of those in the lake of fire and what does he say?
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
--Rev 22
Would anyone turn that down?
Jesus is there! And when did he stop being the Saviour of the world?
Quote from: nes on January 17, 2011, 11:57:33 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
He does by making them believers. Just like He did when He converted Saul.
And milions of others who turned to Jesus.
And he was apparently unable to get the pharisees to become believers.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 17, 2011, 11:40:49 AM
QuoteHowever, it's possible for somebody in the LoF to be stuck there for eternity, because they won't ever "call on the lord" while in the LoF.
In theory that certainly is a possibilty.
But do you believe anyone can forever resist:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
Jesus is present in the lake. My guess is that it's not just to make fun of people
Jesus won't be in the lake of fire for all eternity, lol.
No He won't.
No need for that if everyone is out of LoF because tests show they are pure.
Tormented:
βασανίζω
basanizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
Sounds a bit like a refiners fire, doesn't it?
So viewed from your fantasy world why would Jesus watch and test for say a few months?
Quotesince jesus will be at other places later in the bible
So are the people in LoF.
...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
--Rev 14:10
Jesus is there for men in his position as the Lamb. Who is the Lamb and what is his function?
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 12:16:46 PM
Jesus is in the presence of those in the lake of fire and what does he say?
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
--Rev 22
I got no IDEA how you thought jesus was in the lake of fire when he said that!! Rev 21:9-10 proves it. And this comes RIGHT AFTER the rev 21:8 verse.
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "
Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
That's the bride. So
Quote from: Molly on January 17, 2011, 12:16:46 PM
Would anyone turn that down?
Jesus is there! And when did he stop being the Saviour of the world?
They inadvertently turn it down because they do not believe that jesus is lord, and when in hell, there is the additional requirement that they must come to jesus, jesus does not come to them. Jesus won't deny anyone that comes to him, but he won't reach out his hand to those that continue to not believe him as lord.
The reason for being turned down may be because they believe in a jesus that never existed is lord. Jesus warned of false christs that will deceive. If I were to believe that jesus is sinful, then I wouldn't be believing in the jesus that does exists. And if I (only) believe in a jesus that does not exist, then I can't say that the jesus that does exist is lord. This is what makes universal salvation, catholicism, mormonism, and jehovah's witnesses gravely dangerous to believe in.
No wonder why somebody saying "lord lord" can get the reply "I never knew you, depart from me, you evildoer" from jesus. Jesus wouldn't actually reply "I never knew you", it just shows that the person saying "lord lord" doesn't know jesus. (matt 7:23)
Hi nes :icon_flower:
Ive always found this most interesting- Why does Hades Get Cast [ Ballo"]into so CALLED Hell itself [ LOF], Tarturus, Hades sheol and Gehenna [ Translated HELL] is NOT the Definition of the LOF- so please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. :icon_flower:
if one checks cast, IT means Pours out , AS into a River ]be it the fact REV 1 noted that Revelation is signified[ figurative]
theres No reference of DEATH-to anyone - - its Death and the Grave which pours into it-- so if the LOF isnt Hades[ Hell] what can it be? :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 12:41:37 AM
Hi nes :icon_flower:
please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:
Yes, especially since 'hell' is a mistranslation and error to begin with.
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 12:41:37 AM
Hi nes :icon_flower:
Ive always found this most interesting- Why does Hades Get Cast [ Ballo"]into so CALLED Hell itself [ LOF], Tarturus, Hades sheol and Gehenna [ Translated HELL] is NOT the Definition of the LOF- so please can you scripturally inform me HOW the LOF can be Translated to be HELL- ? :dontknow:
It doesn't matter because the people in hades are waiting to be judged. Hell is a generic term that people can understand. And being sent to hades most likely means that you don't "believe in" jesus. And if you do not "believe in" jesus at judgment, then you will be sentenced to death, which is at the lake of fire.
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 12:41:37 AM
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. :icon_flower:
if one checks cast, IT means Pours out , AS into a River ]be it the fact REV 1 noted that Revelation is signified[ figurative]
theres No reference of DEATH-to anyone - - its Death and the Grave which pours into it-- so if the LOF isnt Hades[ Hell] what can it be? :icon_flower:
The lake of fire is the second death as shown in Rev. 21:8.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—
they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Why would it say in the bible that ANYONE would be consigned to the lake of fire? I thought nobody has sent over there?
Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be
hurt at all
by the second death.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those
who share in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 uses the word "those", which means a group of people. Revelation 20:6 does not say everyone. So if not everyone shares in the first resurrection, then the second death does "have power" over them. This also proves that the second death applies to humans. There are way too many coincidences all over the bible to even consider universal salvation as true.
Quotet doesn't matter because the people in hades are waiting to be judged. Hell is a generic term that people can understand. And being sent to hades most likely means that you don't "believe in" jesus. And if you do not "believe in" jesus at judgment, then you will be sentenced to death, which is at the lake of fire
:icon_flower:
I truly havent read the rest of your reply -QUOTE-
well this may NOT matter to you BUT millions of Folks may just be concerned -especially the DEAD KNOWING nothing-
of course you can verify thall this with scripture - yes- :icon_flower:
But if they are spirit beings then we cannot truly understand what the lake of fire is. The flesh has senses and can feel the pain of fire, but a spirit being without a body would not be able to feel the fire, so it must be some kind of metaphor for suffering.
I think the suffering they have will be lonliness from God and for their spirits to gradually fade, away in anguish, until they come to confess Jesus as Lord and confess Him as saviour.
A bit like the command to go into the world and feed your enemies and the poor, Jesus will feed the people in the lake of fire, when they cry out to him and their spirits, reenergized by the source of life.
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 01:33:37 AM
Quotet doesn't matter because the people in hades are waiting to be judged. Hell is a generic term that people can understand. And being sent to hades most likely means that you don't "believe in" jesus. And if you do not "believe in" jesus at judgment, then you will be sentenced to death, which is at the lake of fire
:icon_flower:
I truly havent read the rest of your reply - well this may NOT matter to you nes- BUT millions of Folks may just be concerned -especially the DEAD KNOWING nothing-
of course you can verify thall this with scripture - yes- :icon_flower:
When jesus died, he went to hades, and it's very clear in those verses that there were people in there having a consciousness. The people in hades don't know nothing, some know how to just scream and gnash their teeth, this is still living. I guess you would only know how to scream and gnash you teeth after being in hell for a few hundred years, how could you even remember your existence on earth?
Quote from: thinktank on January 18, 2011, 01:36:59 AM
But if they are spirit beings then we cannot truly understand what the lake of fire is. The flesh has senses and can feel the pain of fire, but a spirit being without a body would not be able to feel the fire, so it must be some kind of metaphor for suffering.
I think the suffering they have will be lonliness from God and for their spirits to gradually fade, away in anguish, until they come to confess Jesus as Lord and confess Him as saviour.
A bit like the command to go into the world and feed your enemies and the poor, Jesus will feed the people in the lake of fire, when they cry out to him and their spirits, reenergized by the source of life.
Really? Then how could the devil, beast, and false prophet be tormented in the lake of fire?
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. "
Revelation 14:11 "
And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name." "
QuoteWhen jesus died he went to hades, there were people in there having a consciousness. The people in hades don't know nothing, they know how to scream and gnash their teeth, this is still living
Jesus dwelt with us IN Hades- - this is the Realm of the Grave- we being LOWERED through EVES sin into this Valley of the GRAVE-Christ descending taking on the the Body of man- being DEATH for us-
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
so what has this to do with so CALLED hell being CAST into HELL- :dontknow: just where does it say the lake of FIRE is HELL? can you show me please?
:icon_flower:
Really? Then how could the devil, beast, and false prophet be tormented in the lake of fire?
Nes
The goal of these three is to rule the world, at least the beast and the false prophet, I'm not sure what exactly the devils goal is, Jesus said the reason he came was to thief kill and destroy, so I don't think he has any plans to be God, I think those went by the wayside and in his anger just wants to destroy everything.
But if the goal of the beast and the false prophet is world domination then they will be tormented when they are reduced to nothing. One book says that the kings will look upon thee and say your pomp has come down you have become weak like us.
They would be tormented because they need Jesus to live, how humiliating for them, to plead to Jesus.
Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
This is a reference to the scorpions demons that come out of the bottomless pit who torment mankind for 5 months, only those with the mark get tormented. There is nothing here about the beast or dragon being tormented, because they are not in the lake of fire, they are on the earth and the beast has yet to be thrown in the lake of fire, and when he is thrown in, notice that all his armies are destroyed by the word/sword of God, this is spoken of in Zechariah, where their tongues shall consume in their mouth and their eyes burn up, but only the beast and the false prophet are thrown in the fire, not his armies.
Also, it's interesting to look at the list of those having their part in the Lake of Fire. Again, our God is a Consuming Fire; all will be salted with fire.
J. Preston Eby says;
FIRE is the heat and light that you feel and see when something burns. It takes heat to start a fire, but once the fire is started it produces heat that keeps the process going. Thus, fire is really HEAT and LIGHT. In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.
I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE! Is such a process eternal? All the laws of nature shout that it is not!
More than 2500 years ago the Holy Spirit warned the wicked inhabitants of Jerusalem that God would kindle a fire at Jerusalem's gates which would devour her palaces. "But if you will not hearken unto Me ... then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not he quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Did not God say this fire "shall NOT BE QUENCHED?" This prophecy was fulfilled and the fire did occur a few years later and it did destroy all the houses of Jerusalem (Jer. 52:13). Since God said no person or thing would "quench" this fire, did that mean that it would burn for ever? Since it accomplished the work it was sent to do, and since it is NOT BURNING TODAY, it obviously went out by itself after accomplishing its purpose!
Unquenchable fire is not eternal fire - it is simply fire that cannot be put out until it has consumed or changed everything it is possible for it to change! It then simply goes out, for there is nothing more to burn. Yet I hear the preachers ranting and raving about poor souls being cast into bell fire where "their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched" and this, we are told, means eternal, unending torment. How foolish, illogical, and deceptive! Such a view contradicts the plain meaning of the term "unquenchable" and its use in the Word of God.
Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory."
We shall soon see that the Bible gives a beautiful picture of the Lamb's Wife, the Holy City, evangelising and helping unbelieving fellowmen, who are being judged down below them in the Lake of Fire. Ultimately, all unbelievers will become believers, and each and every one of them, in his time and order, will leave the molten, physical Lake of Fire, and ascend to enter the Holy City, joining the Lamb's Wife.
We now come to a wonderful scripture in Revelation describing the nations entering the Holy City before it descends onto the cleansed and refined New Earth with its New Heaven.
Revelation 21:24-26
24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its (the Holy City's) light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
Please note that the nations shall walk in the light of the Holy City. Who are these nations? These nations are none other than those who have experienced the Second Death through the Lake of Fire judgement.
The gates of the Holy City are never closed, which means that the offer of salvation remains open. The kings of the earth bring their glory into the Holy City as they become birthed in the Bride, the Lamb's Wife. The only way the kings of the earth can bring their glory into the Holy City is for them to become Righteous with God's Righteousness through repentance and God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to glorify God the Father.
This is a wonderful and glorious picture of a continuous flow of people ascending from the Lake of Fire to enter through the gates of the Holy City to be born into the Bride of Christ, the Lamb's Wife, as they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They leave behind them the Lake of Fire where the wicked are still being judged until they too, in their time and order, come to repentance and enter the gates of Righteousness to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
The Lamb's Wife will be evangelising and helping fellow human beings, including loved ones who died as unbelievers, to leave the Lake of Fire and rise up to enter God's Holy City. The Lamb's Book of Life is not a closed book, such that new names cannot be added to it. God will continue to register new names in it as unbelievers repent and accept Jesus Christ as the Saviour of the world.
Revelation 22:1-2 (NIV)
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city (the Holy City, New Jerusalem). On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.
This is a continuation of John's vision of the Holy City, the Lamb's Wife. The River of Life and the Tree of Life are none other than Father God and His Son Jesus Christ, and they themselves are 'the leaves of the Tree', which are 'for the healing of the nations'. Note that the nations still need to be healed spiritually, and that the offer of salvation remains open to the nations who are being judged in the Lake of Fire, outside the walls of the Holy City.
Revelation 22:14 (NIV)
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
This is a glorious picture of people entering the gates of the Holy City, the Lamb's Wife, after having washed their filthy rags of self-righteousness in the blood of the Lamb. These people are none other than the unbelievers who were judged in God's Lake of Fire. Once they have washed their filthy robes they become clean and blessed with the robes of God's Righteousness so that they can enter the gates of the Holy City to have the right to the Tree of Life.
Revelation 22:17 (NIV)
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
http://www.godsplanforall.com/lakeoffire1
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
THIS BY no means verifys your comment OR corrects my op- :icon_flower:
Jesus dwelt with us IN Hades- - this is the Realm of the Grave- we being LOWERED through EVES sin into this Valley of the GRAVE-Christ descending taking on the the Body of man- being DEATH for us-
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I re-read the revelation verse. The dead are judged and after the people not in the book of life are sent to the lake of fire, THEN
AFTER the condemned are thrown in to the lake of fire,
the first death and hades is thrown in to the lake of fire which is to show that they get destroyed. Jesus dwelt with humans on earth, jesus also descended to earth (since the word of god is the god). The "US" that is referenced in Ephesians chapter 4 is believers, not everyone.
Quote from: Taffy on January 18, 2011, 01:48:17 AM
so what has this to do with so CALLED hell being CAST into HELL- :dontknow: just where does it say the lake of FORE is HELL? can you show me please?
I never said the lake of fire is the only "hell" that people go to. So why do I need to show you where it says that the lake of fire is hell? Unbelievers in hades WILL be sent to the lake of fire if they do not believe at the time of judgment. And since unbelievers did not call out to the lord while in hades, it's extremely likely that they will be condemned and thrown into the lake of fire after being judged.
QuoteI re-read the revelation verse. The dead are judged and after the people not in the book of life are sent to the lake of fire, THEN AFTER the condemned are thrown in to the lake of fire, the first death and hades is thrown in to the lake of fire which is to show that they get destroyed. Jesus dwelt with humans on earth, jesus also descended to earth (since the word of god is the god). The "US" that is referenced in Ephesians chapter 4 is believers, not everyone.
The US meaning partaking in the Realm - where all are DEAD UNTIL the morning star raises in our hearts through the POWER of the resurrection-HE conquering DEATH through HIS blood-
Those LIVING epistles not HIM partake in the Lake of FIRE- the SEA and GRAVE give up the DEAD - then POURED into the LOF- yup- thats TRUE- even so can we still appreciate this is figurative?
May I ask what Causes DEATH?i :icon_flower:
AS the for latter of your post
Hell fire[ ET] is a common term used for the LOF- YES? Hence me asking- WHICH hopefully wwe KNOW realise thats Just mans own Imagination- as the LOF is NOT HELL
Quote from: nesUnbelievers in hades WILL be sent to the lake of fire if they do not believe at the time of judgment.
That's not the end of the story. Keep reading. Why does everyone stop reading?
Did you see my post up above? The healing of the nations happens
after people are cast into the lake of fire. If they are never getting out and only saints are left--who needs to be healed?
:icon_flower:
Molly trying to explain the figurative to Literalists Is nigh on Impossible- :sigh:
Nes and other see folk cast into some firey PIT being their Punishment- even though punishment means correction :icon_flower:
for mine failing to realise the TRUE cause of death in the first place-some will say SIN- and thats True- so one asks Whats CAUSES sin- so one may say ,lets go back to the FIRST one in the Garden and find out the ROOT-? ya Know how it goes :icon_flower: then we see its the MIND- that being the Carnal mind which EVE gave birth to by THOUGHT[ by which she became DISOBEDIENT to her Creator-- just maybe thats why its says To be CARNAL minded IS DEATH- therefore ,the Carnal mind could be that which has to PASs throughTHIS lake of Fire to be cleansed-in the sence that the only PART which dies is is the MIND - :dontknow:
DID ya ever Notice to Molly that we are Baptsed WITH FIRE- kinda makees ya Think egh? :icon_flower:
"May I ask what Causes DEATH?i " Taffy :icon_flower:
Gods purpose and plan.
I think its better that we are evil, when in the limitiations of the flesh rather than being evil when we are powerful gods. Imagine being a powerful god in heaven and losing ones temper, it might cause planets to explode.
I often wonder though how can we not sin and lose our temper in heaven, I find it difficult to beleive that there is only perfection in heaven, how can human beings survive in such a place and be content,
I might visit hell know and again so I can relive my temper now and again, without the holy angels gossiping about how shameful tut :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: thinktank on October 24, 2010, 08:16:21 PM
I saw a video aswell the other day where the pastor said he died and went to hell, because he refused to preach about certain doctrines. What happened to the blood that saves, if even pastors go there.
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for
the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.
(1Co 3:12-18)
Sounds like he got a lil taste of the day... I wonder, did he become a fool so that he could become wise?