questions about theion and basanizo

[DC]

Did the Greeks use the word Theion to refer to sulfur/brimstone in general, or did they specifically use it to refer to a divine incense with purifying qualites?

Is it true that Theion can also mean "Divine"?

Did the greeks commonly use the word Bazanizo to refer to refer the process of purifying with sulfur/brimstone?

[PaoloNuevo]

You got that right:

http://gtft.org/Library/pridgeon/IsHellEternal011.htm

I forgot which link... but I think I've heard that it's also in The Odyssey (not just the Iliad) where fire and sulphur (it was called sulphur where I read it) was used to cleanse and purify rooms?

I'm not sure, but that's Charles Pridgeon above...

EDIT TO ADD:

Medical uses for sulphur:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2145996_use-sulphur-treat-medical-conditions.html


Now a sadistic damnationalist could name other chemical elements that are used for treatment and medicinal uses and argue that sulphur/brimstone is just one of them... but you can rest assured that "fire and brimstone" put together would mean divine purification to the Greeks ... plus it's paired with basanos/testing (which in this case clearly means testing metals because its paired with Theion).... to those who truly open their minds and hearts to the word of God, the meaning is clear.   :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Brimstone was used for purifying the Temple.
Lake of purifying fire

http://greater-emmanuel.org/kg/kg8.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/the_lake_fire_and_brimstone_the_first_death_the_second_death_8513.0.html

http://www.godfire.net/66Brimstone.htmlhttp://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?84281-Revelation-14-11-A-look-at-BASANIZO-(torment)-and-THEION-(brimstone)
θεῖον
theion
Thayer Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: probably of G2304 (in its original sense of flashing)
Citing in TDNT: 3:122,*
θεῖος
theios
Thayer Definition:
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
2a) of Christ
2b) Holy Spirit
2c) the Father
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G2316Citing in TDNT: 3:122, 322θεός
theos
Thayer Definition:
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity
Citing in TDNT: 3:65, 322ὁ  /  ἡ  /  τό
ho  /  hē  /  to
Thayer Definition:
1) the definite article, "the" in its masculine, feminine or neuter gender
2) the demonstrative pronoun
Examples:
"this"
"that"
"these"
Part of Speech: definite article or demonstrative pronoun in all their inflections. The specific part of speech is dependent upon the context
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: in all their inflections, the definite article

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I had no idea brimstone was used for purifying the temple. Now it all makes sense...... :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: I had no idea brimstone was used for purifying the temple. Now it all makes sense...... :thumbsup:

It is interesting to examine the Greek word for "divine", it is from the Greek "theion", which could also mean "divine being", but also means "sulfur', or in Old English "brimstone" [lit. 'burning stone']. As strange as that sounds to us, it is because of the ancient understanding of the cosmic order of the nature of all things. All people in all cultures from the Near East to the West understood that there were four 'elements', these were: Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Their nature was that Earth and Water tended to go down toward Hades, and Air and Fire tended to go up toward heaven. This could plainly be seen when the heavenly fire, lighting, would hit a living tree and burn the "life" out of it. Anyone could see that the heat from the tree would go back to heaven in the fire, and the ash that remained would go down into the ground. But there was this mysterious yellowish earth substance that behaved very differently, when placed in a fire it burn so brightly that your eyes could not bear to look at it. As it burned, it would release the heavenly substance that was trapped inside and it would rise back to heaven. Clearly, this "burning stone" was a divine substance, and as such, it was simply called "divinity. It was burned within a new temple to "purify" it before consecration, presumably when this burning stone released it's divinity, it causes all evil things to flee from the temple, and thus was the temple readied for worship.
http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Wow......and those 4 elements are represented in 4 Hebrew letters, too. Three of the four are feminine in nature....

[DC]

So, in ancient Greek literature, were Theion and Basanizo only used together when referring to purification?

[Molly]

Clearly, this "burning stone" was a divine substance, and as such, it was simply called "divinity. It was burned within a new temple to "purify" it before consecration, presumably when this burning stone released it's divinity, it causes all evil things to flee from the temple, and thus was the temple readied for worship.

Do not try this at home.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

So, in ancient Greek literature, were Theion and Basanizo only used together when referring to purification?

Yes.
But I'm not so sure it worth knowing because th ancient Greeks were pagan's so their opionon doesn't really count I think :winkgrin:
I searched without any luck but I'm quite sure the Jewish priests cleanced the Temple with it.

[WhiteWings]

Brimstone in Hebrew

גּפרית
gophrı̂yth
BDB Definition:
1) brimstone
1a) of judgment (figuratively)
1b) of Jehovah's breath (figuratively)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: probably from H1613
Same Word by TWOT Number: 375
גּפר
gôpher
BDB Definition:
1) cypress?, gopher, gopher wood
1a) wood of which the ark was made
1b) meaning and exact type unknown
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from an unused root, probably meaning to house in
Same Word by TWOT Number: 374

[WhiteWings]

There is the alter of incense, in which they burned brimstone (it was considered fragrant). This was not for purification, but was symbolic of the intercession, prayers on behalf of those who were atoned or going through atonement. The incense was to burn perpetually to represent the perpetual intercession between God and men. So although identified in the purification process, it is not the purification process.

Scripture, both New and Old Testament, actually say that everything is purified by blood.
.....
Brimstone was used because it symbolically represents blood and water.  In it's solid state it is gold, in it's liquid state it is blood red, and in it's gaseous state it is ocean blue. In order for brimstone to appear as blood and water, the two purifying agents cleansed, it is needed to be revealed by fire. (Exodus 3:2; Ezekiel 1:13; 1 Corinthians 3:13, 2 Thessalonian 1:7)

[jabcat]

So, in ancient Greek literature, were Theion and Basanizo only used together when referring to purification?

Yes.
But I'm not so sure it worth knowing because th ancient Greeks were pagan's so their opionon doesn't really count I think :winkgrin:

Maybe it depends on "who" it was.  Aristotle and Plato, maybe not as much as some earlier scholars/transcribers who may have been believers.  I don't know, I'm just suggesting...

[WhiteWings]

The word meaning is from way before the NT.
It was used in the temple of Zeus and his buddies.
It doesn't mean the Greek meaning can't be used in the NT. I see connections with the Hebrew.
Maybe I'm looking form problems.... Thayer the person who wrote the lexicon I quoted from certain was no pagan.


But even if we use the Hebrew meaning it's about God.
The breath of a pure God must be pure. => Positive
In Greek the root word is divine. In Hebrew Gopher wood.
The stuff the Ark was build with. => Postive
I won't steal Cardinals punchline to compare the ark with..........  :icon_jokercolor:

[jabcat]

I'm going to do some searching as to who the early transcribers are believed to have been.  Maybe they were spiritually in-tune/reborn even though they were Greek, not the "general" pagan of the day.  Or at the very least,  God used them anyway for His purposes.  Either to bring a veiling or enlightenment.     :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I'm going to do some searching as to who the early transcribers are believed to have been.

Good I'm going the study my eyelids. So enjoy teh peace and quiet.
:lazy:

[DC]

Did people who lived around the time Revelation was written always use Theion and Basanizo together when referring to purifying things with brimstone?

[PaoloNuevo]

Again, DC

"fire and sulphur" was pretty common in Homer's works.. I forgot what part of the Odyssey..

But in Iliad chapter 16 (as written in many, many of the articles on LOF), there is spoken of a goblet that is purified with fire and brimstone...

It doesn't matter how many times basanos and theion were paired, but the fact that John puts these terms together when speaking of the LOF - we can know beyond a doubt what God's purposes are for...

[DC]

Again, DC

"fire and sulphur" was pretty common in Homer's works.. I forgot what part of the Odyssey..

But in Iliad chapter 16 (as written in many, many of the articles on LOF), there is spoken of a goblet that is purified with fire and brimstone...

It doesn't matter how many times basanos and theion were paired, but the fact that John puts these terms together when speaking of the LOF - we can know beyond a doubt what God's purposes are for...

So, if a native Greek speaker who lived around the time Revelation was written was writing about purifying something with brimstone, they would more than likely use both words, correct?

Sorry for asking the same question again, I just want as clear a picture on things as possible because I've been struggling with a little bit of doubt the past few days.  Lately I've been trying to fit as many pieces of this great big puzzle together, and this is one of the most important pieces.  I think I understand the symbolism of using those 2 words together, I just want to make absolutley sure my hunch is right.

Again, sorry, I just don't really know that much about Greek and I'm trying to learn as much as I can about this.

(and I've never heard of Homer using fire and sulfur in his writings, most of the writings by Homer I've read were mainly about beer and donuts... :winkgrin:)

[PaoloNuevo]

LOL.. I used to watch The Simpsons too  :laughing7:

Well if you want to "damnationalize" it --- fire and brimstone were used destructively in Sodom and Gomorrah, and also the breath of the Lord is compared to that of brimstone (destructive and NOT purifying, yikes! - ISAIAH 30: 33 KJV).

But I see no reason to doubt since its paired with a verb that means to test metals...

Remember DC, God's plan at the fullness of times is the summation of everything in heaven (this includes Satan since he is a ruler of the "heavenly" realms, see Ephesians 6: 12) .. and everything on earth, in Him.. (Eph. 1: 9 - 10 [N]KJV)... and everything, literally everything (except God, 1 Cor. 15: 27) will be subjected to Jesus Christ in the same manner that Christ will be subject to the Father that God will be all in all (1 Cor. 15: 28).

I don't think it can be put more plainly than that...

Maybe you should ask WhiteWings, he's good at playing the devil's advocate, but at the same time refuting claims of hardcore damnationalists.

But again, don't doubt... God wills all to be saved, the same all that Jesus died for... to be testified in due time. His promise, not mine...  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ WW..... :laughing7:

[DC]

So, if a native Greek speaker who lived around the time Revelation was written was writing about purifying something with brimstone, they would more than likely use both words, correct?

Sorry to repeat myself again, but I would just be able to rest a bit easier if I had a straight yes or no answer to this question.

All the pieces of this big puzzle are finally starting to make sense to me.

[WhiteWings]

So, if a native Greek speaker who lived around the time Revelation was written was writing about purifying something with brimstone, they would more than likely use both words, correct?

Yes.




The lake of divine purification. http://home.online.nl/spamfree/index.html?page=Lake%20divine%20purification.htm
Make sure to also click the 7 related links at the bottom of the article.

[WhiteWings]

Well if you want to "damnationalize" it --- fire and brimstone were used destructively in Sodom and Gomorrah, and also the breath of the Lord is compared to that of brimstone (destructive and NOT purifying, yikes! - ISAIAH 30: 33 KJV).

Eziekiel Chapter 16

49"'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53"'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

The towns are not permanently destroyed - ED
The towns are not permanently punished - ET

[jabcat]

Well if you want to "damnationalize" it --- fire and brimstone were used destructively in Sodom and Gomorrah, and also the breath of the Lord is compared to that of brimstone (destructive and NOT purifying, yikes! - ISAIAH 30: 33 KJV).

I'm not too sure about that Bro. Paolo.  I've read where "burning something up", such as Sodom and Gomorrah, actually is cleansing.  Apparently back in olden days, they often burned bodies, towns, etc. to kill disease and cleanse the land.

Also, as described by J. Preston Eby, when something is burned up it doesn't actually totally cease to exist, rather it changes form.  I.e., wood to ashes, water to vapor/steam, etc.  Not sure about the Isaiah verse, haven't looked at it.  Do you think the above process might fit there too somehow?