John Chapter 11:25

[shawn]

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

It feels like I am missing something here.  It says the one who believes in me will live even though he dies.  That seems simple enough.  But, then it states the one who lives by believing in me will never die.  Is Jesus talking about two different people?  Or is he just restating in other words for emphasis?

[WhiteWings]

The body of everyone will die.
The spirit of some will not die (in LoF perhaps)

[Molly]

two types of believers

One lives and then dies and then lives [the dead in Christ]


One lives by belief in Christ and never dies

[shawn]

two types of believers

One lives and then dies and then lives [the dead in Christ]


One lives by belief in Christ and never dies

Can you clarify?  He is speaking about those who believe in Christ and those who live by believing.  Are we talking about those who believe yet do not obey, and those who who believe and obey?

[Molly]

Honestly, it just dropped into my head lol.

So now I'm looking for scripture to justify it.



We know there are dead in Christ because they are raised first from the dead.  So we know they die.

1 Thes 4:16    For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


We know that Christ will come with clouds.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Paul tells us there is a great cloud of witnesses that encompass those who live by belief in Christ and exhorts us to run the race.  This equates clouds with living witnesses.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


"witness"

G3144
μάρτυς
martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.


Those who live by belief in Christ are persecuted [martyrs, witnesses]

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



Therefore, those that never die are the clouds of witnesses [martyrs] that return with Christ when the dead in Christ are raised.

[Molly]

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

[legoman]

YLT:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Concordant literal:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

Answer:  the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated.  The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" .  Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard.  But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.

[Molly]

The Cloud Rider



61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?

--Mark 14



I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

--Daniel 7:13



To him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which are of old; behold, he utters his voice, a mighty voice.

--Psa 68



He makes the clouds his chariot
   and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,
   flames of fire his servants.

--Psa 104

[Molly]

YLT:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Concordant literal:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

Answer:  the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated.  The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" .  Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard.  But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.

"shall never" [die]

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age?  Or throughout the age?


...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age. Amen.

--Mat 28:20

[WhiteWings]

TCB John 11
25 Yesu said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life; whoever is continually living and believing in Me, even if he should die, will have Life [in the Last Age];
26 and whoever is continually  living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the beginning of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]

[commentary]

[Molly]

TCB John 11
25 Yesu said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life; whoever is continually living and believing in Me, even if he should die, will have Life [in the Last Age];
26 and whoever is continually  living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the beginning of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]

[commentary]

That doesn't line up with the Greek words I have.

Nor does it make much sense.

What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'

[Molly]

Let's look at this one.  Does this sound like the person dies?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

--John 5:24

"everlasting" [life]

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Or, two types of believers, in the sense that Paul said he didn't want to be unclothed but clothed upon, mortality swallowed up of life, where the glory that is in us, comes out of us and swallows us up. Christ in you, the hope of glory, Paul said the glory was getting ready to be revealed in us. Blessings....

[Paul Hazelwood]

There are spiritually dead believers and spiritually alive believers.

[legoman]

YLT:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Concordant literal:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

Answer:  the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated.  The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" .  Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard.  But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.

"shall never" [die]

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age?  Or throughout the age?

To be honest I'm not really sure.  But I take it to mean something like those who believe are living for the eon - which eon?  I don't know, perhaps the next eon when we reign with Christ.  Those who don't believe would not be in that reign with Christ.

I don't think it can literally mean 'never' though, as that would cause problems in other places; at least that's how I see it.

[WhiteWings]

YLT:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;

Concordant literal:

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

Answer:  the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated.  The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" .  Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard.  But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.

"shall never" [die]

G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.


G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.


G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age?  Or throughout the age?

To be honest I'm not really sure.  But I take it to mean something like those who believe are living for the eon - which eon?  I don't know, perhaps the next eon when we reign with Christ.  Those who don't believe would not be in that reign with Christ.

I don't think it can literally mean 'never' though, as that would cause problems in other places; at least that's how I see it.

There are those that do and do not live in the last age...

(reply #9)

[Molly]

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [age]?

--Mat 24



30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--Mat 24


14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1



...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world [age]. Amen.

--Mat 28:20

[jabcat]

What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_christian_bible_1991_7876.msg112504.html#msg112504

[WhiteWings]

What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_christian_bible_1991_7876.msg112504.html#msg112504

James, as I wrote in that thread as an answer to Micah translation is not just Gree->English but also making it a bit readable. So it never will be 1 on 1.
Maybe they translated the verse a little to much as what they think it should read :dontknow:
But I think it's a correct and more explaining translation thatn just Last Age.
Example.
If you say I will not be present on Saturdays party. How long will you attend to that party? Answer not at all.
If you planned to go for an hour you would say so.
Same with that Last Age.
Many people don't attend to that Age/party.
Because they are not part of it for even a second.
They are not present from the start of the age/party. Not even for an hour.

[Molly]

Oh, ok, I understand what they are doing, ...I think lol.

They are translating 'the end of the age'  as 'the last age' and then they throw in the word 'beginning' to get 'beginning of the last age.'

This is kind of like a game of telephone lol.  And, it shows clearly how a translator's beliefs influence his translation.  And how a translation can influence the beliefs of others.

For which cause, we have to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding.  Or we are the blind leading the blind.

If we take this verse, I am with you always, even to the end of the world [age]--

'always' is 2 words



G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.


G2250
ἡμέρα
hēmera
hay-mer'-ah
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.


I am with you alway--I am with you always--I am with you every day--I am with you all the time--I am with you for all time--

even unto the end of the world

[unto the] "end"

G4930
συντέλεια
sunteleia
soon-tel'-i-ah
From G4931; entire completion, that is, consummation (of a dispensation): - end.

[of the] "world"

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


So I might translate that--I am with you every day-- 'even until the consummation of the age,' or 'even until the age is completed'or 'even until time is no more'--because that is what I believe.  That's sort of what King James is implying when they said 'the end of the world' because they are assuming when the age ends, the world ends, or when the age is completed, the world as we know it ends.


But you see that word, 'sunteleia'  means consummation and it is not in our John 11:25 verse.

A strict reading of John 11:25 could even make it a UR verse, because it is saying --even if you are dead, if you believe in me, you will live.

King James--

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11


"though"

G2579
κἄν
kan
kan
From G2532 nad G1437; and (or even) if: - and (also) if (so much as), if but, at the least, though, yet.


"he were dead"

G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).


"yet shall he live"

G2198
ζάω
zaō
dzah'-o
A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): - life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.



Can you see the power of those three greek words?  KAN APOTHNESKO ZAO


Even if dead, alive!


That's beautiful, isn't it?

[Molly]

Here's another verse that tells us in a different way that we will never die--



Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
--John 6:47


"everlasting"

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


So this is telling us we will live throughout all the ages [or more than one age].

[CHB]

Molly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die".  I really don't know how to word this, hummm?  Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?

When Jesus said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, YET SHALL {future} he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER die". {after the fact}

It sounds like he is telling Martha that if we she were dead she would live again and when she is resurrected she will never die.

CHB

[Quaesitor]

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

It feels like I am missing something here.  It says the one who believes in me will live even though he dies.  That seems simple enough.  But, then it states the one who lives by believing in me will never die.  Is Jesus talking about two different people?  Or is he just restating in other words for emphasis?

John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"

I think we have the wrong understanding of believing/faith.
I believe it is strongly connected with remaining in Him. (1 John 4)

I believe it is not a one time confession but a continuous walk.
As I realize that sometimes I'm not remaining in Him and there I'm dead because I sin, but when I remain in Him, when I stand in His rest, I do not sin and I have life.

He is the life, those that remain/believe in Him to the end will not die (spiritually) during that time and even though they will die(physically), that death will not remove them from Him.

That may not be clear...only my  :2c:
:happygrin:

[shawn]

Molly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die".  I really don't know how to word this, hummm?  Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?

When Jesus said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, YET SHALL {future} he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER die". {after the fact}

It sounds like he is telling Martha that if we she were dead she would live again and when she is resurrected she will never die.

CHB

I think that is reasonable and makes the most amount of sense to me.

[Molly]

Molly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die".  I really don't know how to word this, hummm?  Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--King James Bible, John 11

The way the King James structures these sentences, verse 25 is talking about someone who is dead and comes alive, and verse 26 is talking about someone who is alive and never dies.

So Jesus is saying here, I don't care what condition you're in, I am life, and if you believe in me, you are alive.

In all of John 11, Jesus is playing games with the word 'death.'   It's almost as if he doesn't believe that the state of death exists in the same way that we do.

11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

--John 11

[our friend Lazarus] "sleepeth"

G2837
κοιμάω
koimaō
koy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively) to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.


14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

--John 11

[Lazarus is] "dead"

G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).



Why is Jesus playing these word games with the disciples?  I think he is trying to teach them that their views of death are all wrong.

We see him play these word games in other places, as well--Let the dead bury their dead.

What do I believe?  I don't believe that anyone dies spiritually, even though we all might die physically.  I believe that everyone is alive after physical death.  I also believe that in this life and the next, we can be separated from God, and this is a type of death.  I also expect that at my physical death, I will be in the presence of Jesus forever.

So that's my belief system, part of it anyway, and everything I read in the Bible will be colored by it.

Now we see that Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all know Jesus personally and love him, but, in chapter 11, they are not understanding a word of what he is saying.  They believe that Lazarus is dead, not sleeping, and that if only Jesus had gotten there sooner, he wouldn't have died.  Jesus tries to tell them it is irrelevant, but they will not listen.



21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.

22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

--John 11



Jesus tries to tell them, I am here, I am life, your brother is not dead, but no one will listen to him.  No one gets it.  Martha voices here some eschatological belief system in a 'last day,' and even though the Master is standing right in front of her telling her otherwise, she will not give it up.

Bottom line--Lazarus has been in the grave for four days.

Is Lazarus dead?

Does Lazarus have to wait for a Last Day to be raised from the dead?

Is it possible for anyone to be dead in the presence and the faith of the Son of God?



Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.