25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It feels like I am missing something here. It says the one who believes in me will live even though he dies. That seems simple enough. But, then it states the one who lives by believing in me will never die. Is Jesus talking about two different people? Or is he just restating in other words for emphasis?
The body of everyone will die.
The spirit of some will not die (in LoF perhaps)
two types of believers
One lives and then dies and then lives [the dead in Christ]
One lives by belief in Christ and never dies
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2010, 05:27:32 PM
two types of believers
One lives and then dies and then lives [the dead in Christ]
One lives by belief in Christ and never dies
Can you clarify? He is speaking about those who believe in Christ and those who live by believing. Are we talking about those who believe yet do not obey, and those who who believe and obey?
Honestly, it just dropped into my head lol.
So now I'm looking for scripture to justify it.
We know there are dead in Christ because they are raised first from the dead. So we know they die.
1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
We know that Christ will come with clouds.
Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Paul tells us there is a great cloud of witnesses that encompass those who live by belief in Christ and exhorts us to run the race. This equates clouds with living witnesses.
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
"witness"
G3144
μάρτυς
martus
mar'-toos
Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a "martyr": - martyr, record, witness.
Those who live by belief in Christ are persecuted [martyrs, witnesses]
Matthew 5:10
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, those that never die are the clouds of witnesses [martyrs] that return with Christ when the dead in Christ are raised.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Heb 12
YLT:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
Concordant literal:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"
Answer: the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated. The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" . Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard. But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.
The Cloud Rider
61But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
--Mark 14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
--Daniel 7:13
To him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which are of old; behold, he utters his voice, a mighty voice.
--Psa 68
He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
4 He makes winds his messengers,
flames of fire his servants.
--Psa 104
Quote from: legoman on December 10, 2010, 06:28:20 PM
YLT:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
Concordant literal:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"
Answer: the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated. The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" . Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard. But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.
"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361;
a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither,
never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.
G1519
εἰς
eisice
A primary preposition;
to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto),
throughout, till,
to (be,
the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
G165
αἰών
aiōnahee-ohn'
From the same as G104;
properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age? Or throughout the age?
...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age. Amen.--Mat 28:20
TCB John 11
25 Yesu said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life; whoever is continually living and believing in Me, even if he should die, will have Life [in the Last Age];
26 and whoever is continually living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the beginning of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]
[commentary]
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2010, 07:10:34 PM
TCB John 11
25 Yesu said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life; whoever is continually living and believing in Me, even if he should die, will have Life [in the Last Age];
26 and whoever is continually living and believing in Me, shall by no means die at the beginning of the Last Age [in the Fiery Destruction of the Second Death (Rev. 20:14-15)]
[commentary]
That doesn't line up with the Greek words I have.
Nor does it make much sense.
What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'
Let's look at this one. Does this sound like the person dies?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--John 5:24
"everlasting" [life]
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
:cloud9: Or, two types of believers, in the sense that Paul said he didn't want to be unclothed but clothed upon, mortality swallowed up of life, where the glory that is in us, comes out of us and swallows us up. Christ in you, the hope of glory, Paul said the glory was getting ready to be revealed in us. Blessings....
There are spiritually dead believers and spiritually alive believers.
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2010, 07:10:12 PM
Quote from: legoman on December 10, 2010, 06:28:20 PM
YLT:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
Concordant literal:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"
Answer: the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated. The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" . Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard. But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.
"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age? Or throughout the age?
To be honest I'm not really sure. But I take it to mean something like those who believe are living for the eon - which eon? I don't know, perhaps the next eon when we reign with Christ. Those who don't believe would not be in that reign with Christ.
I don't think it can literally mean 'never' though, as that would cause problems in other places; at least that's how I see it.
Quote from: legoman on December 10, 2010, 09:21:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2010, 07:10:12 PM
Quote from: legoman on December 10, 2010, 06:28:20 PM
YLT:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age;
Concordant literal:
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"
Answer: the NIV and KJV are incorrectly translated. The word "never" in this verse is actually translated from the Greek word for "not" and the Greek word "aion" . Since they translate aion as "ever", they translated "not aion" as "never" - at least they were consistent in that regard. But it is a wrong translation on both accounts.
"shall never" [die]
G3364
οὐ μή
ou mē
oo may
That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: - any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.
G1519
εἰς
eis
ice
A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases.: - [abundant-] ly, against, among, as, at, [back-] ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for [intent, purpose], fore, + forth, in (among, at unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-) on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore (-unto), throughout, till, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-) until (-to), . . . ward, [where-] fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Three words ou me eis aeon.
What does it mean to you that you should never die till the end of the age? Or throughout the age?
To be honest I'm not really sure. But I take it to mean something like those who believe are living for the eon - which eon? I don't know, perhaps the next eon when we reign with Christ. Those who don't believe would not be in that reign with Christ.
I don't think it can literally mean 'never' though, as that would cause problems in other places; at least that's how I see it.
There are those that do and do not live in the last age...
(reply #9)
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [age]?
--Mat 24
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Mat 24
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1
...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world [age]. Amen.
--Mat 28:20
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2010, 07:15:22 PM
What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_christian_bible_1991_7876.msg112504.html#msg112504
Quote from: jabcat on December 11, 2010, 03:31:02 AM
Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2010, 07:15:22 PM
What Greek words say 'at the beginning of the last age?'
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/the_christian_bible_1991_7876.msg112504.html#msg112504
James, as I wrote in that thread as an answer to Micah translation is not just Gree->English but also making it a bit readable. So it never will be 1 on 1.
Maybe they translated the verse a little to much as what they think it should read :dontknow:
But I think it's a correct and more explaining translation thatn just Last Age.
Example.
If you say I will not be present on Saturdays party. How long will you attend to that party? Answer not at all.
If you planned to go for an hour you would say so.
Same with that Last Age.
Many people don't attend to that Age/party.
Because they are not part of it for even a second.
They are not present from the start of the age/party. Not even for an hour.
Oh, ok, I understand what they are doing, ...I think lol.
They are translating 'the end of the age' as 'the last age' and then they throw in the word 'beginning' to get 'beginning of the last age.'
This is kind of like a game of telephone lol. And, it shows clearly how a translator's beliefs influence his translation. And how a translation can influence the beliefs of others.
For which cause, we have to rely on the Holy Spirit for understanding. Or we are the blind leading the blind.
If we take this verse, I am with you always, even to the end of the world [age]--
'always' is 2 words
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
G2250
ἡμέρα
hēmera
hay-mer'-ah
Feminine (with G5610 implied) of a derivative of ἧμαι hēmai (to sit; akin to the base of G1476) meaning tame, that is, gentle; day, that is, (literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours (but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
I am with you alway--I am with you always--I am with you every day--I am with you all the time--I am with you for all time--
even unto the end of the world
[unto the] "end"
G4930
συντέλεια
sunteleia
soon-tel'-i-ah
From G4931; entire completion, that is, consummation (of a dispensation): - end.
[of the] "world"
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
So I might translate that--I am with you every day-- 'even until the consummation of the age,' or 'even until the age is completed'or 'even until time is no more'--because that is what I believe. That's sort of what King James is implying when they said 'the end of the world' because they are assuming when the age ends, the world ends, or when the age is completed, the world as we know it ends.
But you see that word, 'sunteleia' means consummation and it is not in our John 11:25 verse.
A strict reading of John 11:25 could even make it a UR verse, because it is saying --even if you are dead, if you believe in me, you will live.
King James--
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
"though"
G2579
κἄν
kan
kan
From G2532 nad G1437; and (or even) if: - and (also) if (so much as), if but, at the least, though, yet.
"he were dead"
G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskō
ap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
"yet shall he live"
G2198
ζάω
zaō
dzah'-o
A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively): - life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.
Can you see the power of those three greek words? KAN APOTHNESKO ZAO
Even if dead, alive!
That's beautiful, isn't it?
Here's another verse that tells us in a different way that we will never die--
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
--John 6:47
"everlasting"
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
So this is telling us we will live throughout all the ages [or more than one age].
Molly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die". I really don't know how to word this, hummm? Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?
When Jesus said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, YET SHALL {future} he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER die". {after the fact}
It sounds like he is telling Martha that if we she were dead she would live again and when she is resurrected she will never die.
CHB
Quote from: shawn on December 10, 2010, 04:51:24 PM
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It feels like I am missing something here. It says the one who believes in me will live even though he dies. That seems simple enough. But, then it states the one who lives by believing in me will never die. Is Jesus talking about two different people? Or is he just restating in other words for emphasis?
John 11
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living.
26 And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon. Are you believing this?"
I think we have the wrong understanding of believing/faith.
I believe it is strongly connected with remaining in Him. (1 John 4)
I believe it is not a one time confession but a continuous walk.
As I realize that sometimes I'm not remaining in Him and there I'm dead because I sin, but when I remain in Him, when I stand in His rest, I do not sin and I have life.
He is the life, those that remain/believe in Him to the end will not die (spiritually) during that time and even though they will die(physically), that death will not remove them from Him.
That may not be clear...only my :2c:
:happygrin:
Quote from: CHB on December 11, 2010, 08:44:36 PM
Molly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die". I really don't know how to word this, hummm? Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?
When Jesus said "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, YET SHALL {future} he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me SHALL NEVER die". {after the fact}
It sounds like he is telling Martha that if we she were dead she would live again and when she is resurrected she will never die.
CHB
I think that is reasonable and makes the most amount of sense to me.
Quote from: CHBMolly, may I ask what you think happens to us... well, since we never die, I can't ask... "when we die". I really don't know how to word this, hummm? Are you speaking about spiritually dead, or physically dead?
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--King James Bible, John 11
The way the King James structures these sentences, verse 25 is talking about someone who is dead and comes alive, and verse 26 is talking about someone who is alive and never dies.
So Jesus is saying here, I don't care what condition you're in, I am life, and if you believe in me, you are alive.
In all of John 11, Jesus is playing games with the word 'death.' It's almost as if he doesn't believe that the state of death exists in the same way that we do.
11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
--John 11
[our friend Lazarus]
"sleepeth"G2837
κοιμάω
koimaōkoy-mah'-o
From G2749; to put to sleep, that is, (passively or reflexively)
to slumber; figuratively to decease: - (be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
--John 11
[Lazarus is]
"dead"G599
ἀποθνήσκω
apothnēskōap-oth-nace'-ko
From G575 and G2348; to die off (literally or figuratively): -
be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
Why is Jesus playing these word games with the disciples? I think he is trying to teach them that their views of death are all wrong.
We see him play these word games in other places, as well--
Let the dead bury their dead.What do I believe? I don't believe that anyone dies spiritually, even though we all might die physically. I believe that everyone is alive after physical death. I also believe that in this life and the next, we can be separated from God, and this is a type of death. I also expect that at my physical death, I will be in the presence of Jesus forever.
So that's my belief system, part of it anyway, and everything I read in the Bible will be colored by it.
Now we see that Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all know Jesus personally and love him, but, in chapter 11, they are not understanding a word of what he is saying. They believe that Lazarus is dead, not sleeping, and that if only Jesus had gotten there sooner, he wouldn't have died. Jesus tries to tell them it is irrelevant, but they will not listen.
21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
--John 11
Jesus tries to tell them, I am here, I am life, your brother is not dead, but no one will listen to him. No one gets it. Martha voices here some eschatological belief system in a 'last day,' and even though the Master is standing right in front of her telling her otherwise, she will not give it up.
Bottom line--Lazarus has been in the grave for four days.
Is Lazarus dead?
Does Lazarus have to wait for a Last Day to be raised from the dead?
Is it possible for anyone to be dead in the presence and the faith of the Son of God?
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Quote from: Molly
I believe that everyone is alive after physical death. I also believe that in this life and the next, we can be separated from God, and this is a type of death.
Hi Molly,
Could you please explain this a little bit more? You said "everyone is alive after physical death". If this is so why a resurrection, or do you think there will be a resurrection? I don't understand. How do you see the resurrection? If everyone is alive after death, where are they.
You said, "we can be separated from God in this life and the next. I know we can be separated from God in this life but would you explain about the next?
CHB
Hi CHB,
I'm not sure my personal beliefs are that important, but yes, I do believe there will be a resurrection of our physical bodies--there will be two resurrections according to the Bible.
I also know I don't need this body to remain 'alive.'
I think our 'separation ' from God in this life is a matter of perception. It will be the same in the next life.
Where are they? I think it depends. Jesus said Lazarus was 'asleep.' Sleep's ok, but not all will sleep [koimao]. A lot of the people I see at the mall are likewise asleep. I don't believe in Hell, except one of our own making. Hell is an unsound mind. I trust God and his goodness, mercy, and justice to do what is right by everyone.
Like I said, I expect to remain fully conscious and to spend eternity with Jesus and his friends. :icon_king:
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2010, 05:12:03 PM
The body of everyone will die.
The spirit of some will not die (in LoF perhaps)
I have no intention of laying this body into the dust.
I am eternal! Spirit, soul and body!
That! IS the promise! THAT is the hope of glory!
Die if you want to WhiteWings,
I will collect my inheritance!
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 11, 2010, 08:59:29 PM
I believe it is not a one time confession but a continuous walk.
As I realize that sometimes I'm not remaining in Him and there I'm dead because I sin, but when I remain in Him, when I stand in His rest, I do not sin and I have life.
He is the life, those that remain/believe in Him to the end will not die (spiritually) during that time and even though they will die(physically), that death will not remove them from Him.
That may not be clear...only my :2c:
:happygrin:
Hi Q. In the final analysis, I probably agree with the spirit of your post, and we may be saying much the same things - just a little differently. :bigGrin: I believe we are born from above with a "one-time", specific event - a visitation by the Holy Spirit that brings us into Christ - but then
He takes us on that lifelong walk, further into obedience and maturity as sons of God.
A few verses I look at are;
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Phil. 1:6
It's not our efforts, it's His works of grace through us; "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." Gal. 5:4 I interpret that to mostly be describing if we've stopped looking to the cross and depending on Him, and have begun to attempt to justify ourselves through our own strengths and effort.
So both daily, and in the end, He ensures the outcome; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10
Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on December 12, 2010, 03:21:20 AM
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 11, 2010, 08:59:29 PM
I believe it is not a one time confession but a continuous walk.
As I realize that sometimes I'm not remaining in Him and there I'm dead because I sin, but when I remain in Him, when I stand in His rest, I do not sin and I have life.
He is the life, those that remain/believe in Him to the end will not die (spiritually) during that time and even though they will die(physically), that death will not remove them from Him.
That may not be clear...only my :2c:
:happygrin:
Hi Q. In the final analysis, I probably agree with the spirit of your post, and we may be saying much the same things - just a little differently. :bigGrin: I believe we are born from above with a "one-time", specific event - a visitation by the Holy Spirit that brings us into Christ - but then He takes us on that lifelong walk, further into obedience and maturity as sons of God.
A few verses I look at are;
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Phil. 1:6
It's not our efforts, it's His works of grace through us; "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." Gal. 5:4 I interpret that to mostly be describing if we've stopped looking to the cross and depending on Him, and have begun to attempt to justify ourselves through our own strengths and effort.
So both daily, and in the end, He ensures the outcome; "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10
Blessings, James.
That's about what I had in mind.
:bigGrin:
Quote from: shawn on December 10, 2010, 04:51:24 PM
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It feels like I am missing something here. It says the one who believes in me will live even though he dies. That seems simple enough. But, then it states the one who lives by believing in me will never die. Is Jesus talking about two different people? Or is he just restating in other words for emphasis?
There is no reason to take the Lord's Words other than spoken.
Believe and live.
Quote from: Molly
Like I said, I expect to remain fully conscious and to spend eternity with Jesus and his friends.
Molly, I pray you are right.
CHB
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 12, 2010, 03:11:39 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 10, 2010, 05:12:03 PM
The body of everyone will die.
The spirit of some will not die (in LoF perhaps)
I have no intention of laying this body into the dust.
I am eternal! Spirit, soul and body!
That! IS the promise! THAT is the hope of glory!
Die if you want to WhiteWings,
I will collect my inheritance!
Have a drink on me when I take a nap David :winkgrin:
I never understood even a single post of people who say we never die.
I can accept the spirit stay alive and immediately goes to God.
But the body of flesh...Isn't that really dead? Aren't there real bodies in the graves?
So David can you answer me in simple terms.
Say you are in a room with some people. You die on the spot. Will those people see your dead body or will you, including your body, suddenly disappear?
Im
only asking about your body of flesh.
Hi WW,
If I die "on the spot" in front of a group of people, it will be just as any other person that drops dead.
They will call 911 and let the authorities take my body to the morgue.
BUT!
That's is not what the Sons of God speak of when they express the hope of glory.
Since Jesus tasted death once for ALL, I have no intention of having dust thrown on my face.
The promise is to walk eternally with the Father on these very feet that I stand on now.
The parousia of Christ in me.
:cloud9: A thought just occured to me on this text. If you believe, then you shall never die. I think it's fair to say Lazarus believed, yet he died. Earlier it's implied that Jesus tarried getting there. It could be said He's "tarrying" in "getting here now", and ever since.
So there were two types of believers there, the living and the dead, yet when He appears on the scene proclaiming He is the last day, both the living and the dead are "caught up" out of death/darkness brought on by the carnal mind's propensity for sinning unto death. Just a thought to run with.....Blessings....
I've just read "The restitution of all things" by Andrew Jukes. (book from Gary's site)
Jukes says Jesus the Greek does not say that Jesus saves us from death but Jesus saves us out of death. (or by death)
Would someone please tell me what they think about this idea, or how they see it?
I always thought we would be like Jesus as far as dying and being resurrected. When Jesus was resurrected he didn't leave his body behind. Paul also talked as if we would be clothed UPON, {like putting on a coat} that is we would be resurrected with these bodies and PUT ON immortality. Otherwords, these bodies we have now will be changed into spiritual bodies when we are resurrected .
I find it strange that our spirit goes on at death to be with God. That we will be knowing of things, that we will be alive. If we are alive, why resurrect our old dust bodies from the ground? What need will we have of them if we are already in heaven with God, having a good old time? Is God going to put our spirits back into our dead bodies? If so, why?
Am I wrong?
CHB
Even if it are old bodies they very likely are "upgraded". I can't imagine blind people will be blind for eternity. Or handicaped people only be able to lay in bed for eternity.
Quote from: CHB on December 12, 2010, 08:29:56 PM
Would someone please tell me what they think about this idea, or how they see it?
I always thought we would be like Jesus as far as dying and being resurrected. When Jesus was resurrected he didn't leave his body behind. Paul also talked as if we would be clothed UPON, {like putting on a coat} that is we would be resurrected with these bodies and PUT ON immortality. Otherwords, these bodies we have now will be changed into spiritual bodies when we are resurrected .
I find it strange that our spirit goes on at death to be with God. That we will be knowing of things, that we will be alive. If we are alive, why resurrect our old dust bodies from the ground? What need will we have of them if we are already in heaven with God, having a good old time? Is God going to put our spirits back into our dead bodies? If so, why?
Am I wrong?
CHB
:cloud9: Interesting thought......since He's the pattern Son, why didn't (IF He didn't) His spirit return to the Father immediately following death? Instead we read we went into Sheol and raised the dead souls from there. Or did His spirit return to the Father (to me His spirit is as His blood) entering in to "the Most Holy place" to remove those sins from those in Sheol (and those of the living, as well)? Day of Atonement, sins are removed; all other days they are just covered. Points to ponder......? Blessings....
Reading the Scriptures about the spirit, what I see is that the spirit in man is the spiriti of God, Paul said in Athen, in Him we move and live.
When a man dies the spirit return to God from where it comes.
As was said in another thread, we are not spirit only like Plato tought but a combination of God's spirit in a dust body animated by the animal life (soul).
Like the word love has many words in greek, I find the word life having at least 2 words in greek, bios and zoe. One is carnal/animal/beastly and the other is spiritual/divine.
That's all really new to me... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 12, 2010, 09:53:38 PM
Even if it are old bodies they very likely are "upgraded". I can't imagine blind people will be blind for eternity. Or handicaped people only be able to lay in bed for eternity.
I agree, we will be made whole but what I don't understand is, if our spirit is with Christ will he raise our bodies from the dust and put our spirits back into those bodies? To me this just doesn't make any sense. Also God BREATHED into Adam and then he became a living soul. Isn't this breath is what returns to God. I can't remember which verse but in Hebrew, spirit means breath. I guess this could bring up the question, what is the spirit in man? Right now I am interested in what happens to us after we die.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 12, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
I agree, we will be made whole but what I don't understand is, if our spirit is with Christ will he raise our bodies from the dust and put our spirits back into those bodies? To me this just doesn't make any sense. Also God BREATHED into Adam and then he became a living soul. Isn't this breath is what returns to God. I can't remember which verse but in Hebrew, spirit means breath. I guess this could bring up the question, what is the spirit in man? Right now I am interested in what happens to us after we die.
Return to God. Depends a bit on how you view that. I don't think things return exacrly to their former state becaus ethat would basicly means creation gets undone.
8 This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
--Eph 4
"lower" [earthly regions]
G2737
κατώτερος
katōteros
kat-o'-ter-os
Compound from G2736; inferior (locally, of Hades): - lower.
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
--1 Peter 3
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
--John 14
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 13, 2010, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 12, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
I agree, we will be made whole but what I don't understand is, if our spirit is with Christ will he raise our bodies from the dust and put our spirits back into those bodies? To me this just doesn't make any sense. Also God BREATHED into Adam and then he became a living soul. Isn't this breath is what returns to God. I can't remember which verse but in Hebrew, spirit means breath. I guess this could bring up the question, what is the spirit in man? Right now I am interested in what happens to us after we die.
Return to God. Depends a bit on how you view that. I don't think things return exacrly to their former state becaus ethat would basicly means creation gets undone.
Ecc. 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth AS IT WAS: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Job 34:14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit AND HIS BREATH: All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
(Psalms 104: 29) thou taketh away their breath , they die,and return to their dist.
CHB
2 Corinthians 5:17;
So that, if anyone is
in Christ, there is a new creation:
the primitive passed by.
Lo! there has come new!
Quote from: CHB on December 14, 2010, 05:04:15 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 13, 2010, 07:15:36 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 12, 2010, 11:33:47 PM
I agree, we will be made whole but what I don't understand is, if our spirit is with Christ will he raise our bodies from the dust and put our spirits back into those bodies? To me this just doesn't make any sense. Also God BREATHED into Adam and then he became a living soul. Isn't this breath is what returns to God. I can't remember which verse but in Hebrew, spirit means breath. I guess this could bring up the question, what is the spirit in man? Right now I am interested in what happens to us after we die.
Return to God. Depends a bit on how you view that. I don't think things return exacrly to their former state becaus ethat would basicly means creation gets undone.
Ecc. 12:7) Then shall the dust return to the earth AS IT WAS: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Job 34:14) If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit AND HIS BREATH: All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
(Psalms 104: 29) thou taketh away their breath , they die,and return to their dist.
CHB
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/who_lives_who_dies_7187.msg81273.html#msg81273
Nice.
Thanks, James.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 14, 2010, 06:30:06 AM
2 Corinthians 5:17;
So that, if anyone is
in Christ, there is a new creation:
the primitive passed by.
Lo! there has come new!
Yes, and we will no longer have bodies of dust.
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...we shall be changed."moment"G823
ἄτομος
atomos
at'-om-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G5114;
uncut, that is, (by implication)
indivisible (an "atom" of time): - moment.
"Lo! there has come new!"
But "has come" is present tense.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 14, 2010, 05:00:46 PM
"Lo! there has come new!"
But "has come" is present tense.
Yes, because we have been translated.
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
--Col 1
"hath translated" [us into the kingdom]
G3179
μεθίστημι, μεθιστάνω
methistēmi methistanō
meth-is'-tay-mee, -is-tan'-o
From G3326 and G2476; (second form used at 1Co_13:2)
to transfer, that is,
carry away, depose or (figuratively)
exchange, seduce: - put out, remove, translate, turn away.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.--John 5:24
When your body fails, you have an eternal home waiting for you.
2 Cor 5:1
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
John 5:24;
"Verily, verily, I am saying to you
that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me,
has life eonian and is not coming into judging,
but has proceeded
out of death
into life.
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 12, 2010, 10:19:17 PM
Reading the Scriptures about the spirit, what I see is that the spirit in man is the spiriti of God, Paul said in Athen, in Him we move and live.
When a man dies the spirit return to God from where it comes.
As was said in another thread, we are not spirit only like Plato tought but a combination of God's spirit in a dust body animated by the animal life (soul).
Like the word love has many words in greek, I find the word life having at least 2 words in greek, bios and zoe. One is carnal/animal/beastly and the other is spiritual/divine.
That's all really new to me... :dontknow:
Very Good!
Interesting, since the blood of Jesus cleanses our spirits, scripture in above posts somewhere, then what is a spirit that in not washed?
An unclean spirit :mshock:
So unclean spirits could be the departed dead, who perish, because they are away from God, outside of his heavenly kingdom
12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
--Col 1
, and so exist as parasites, living off humanity, eating their dust :mshock:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 17, 2010, 03:16:33 AM
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
LOL!
Hmm it's interesting how they make that conditional, as if it might not happen that way. :mshock:
:cloud9: Yes, isn't it.... :winkgrin:
They expected the rapture/resurection to happen in their generation
1 John 3:3
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
You see!
It is HOPE that purifies.
Not what we do but what we believe.
Quote from: thinktank on December 17, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
They expected the rapture/resurection to happen in their generation
Perhaps, it did!
John 8:52
At this the Jews exclaimed!
"Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets,
yet you say that if anyone keeps your word,
he will never taste death.
Mark 9:1
And He said to them,
"I tell you the truth,
some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
God does delight in keeping things hidden in plain sight.
I always found that mark scripture interesting. The problem with your theory though is that apostle Paul latter on, argues that some are saying that the resurection has already passed and overthrow the faith of some.
If Paul is correct and he is talking about the same resurection then it means that the mark scripture could mean/imply something else.
But perhaps the resurection that Jesus talks about is diffferent to the one that Paul speaks of but it is challenging :dontknow:
Theory?
Does Paul ever speak of anything else but JESUS?
Quote from: thinktank on December 18, 2010, 03:53:38 AM
I always found that mark scripture interesting. The problem with your theory though is that apostle Paul latter on, argues that some are saying that the resurection has already passed and overthrow the faith of some.
If Paul is correct and he is talking about the same resurection then it means that the mark scripture could mean/imply something else.
But perhaps the resurection that Jesus talks about is diffferent to the one that Paul speaks of but it is challenging :dontknow:
Paul spoke the Word, Jesus, nothing more and nothing less.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 18, 2010, 04:02:04 AM
Theory?
Does Paul ever speak of anything else but JESUS?
So your saying I'm correct, that what Paul said is true? That the resurection as not passed yet, at the time he Paul spoke it?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 18, 2010, 03:00:18 AM
Quote from: thinktank on December 17, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
They expected the rapture/resurection to happen in their generation
Perhaps, it did!
John 8:52
At this the Jews exclaimed!
"Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
Mark 9:1
And He said to them,
"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
God does delight in keeping things hidden in plain sight.
Read the above.
Perhaps, you missed the point.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
But were talking about the tabernacle, I think you missed the point I was making. I was refering to the resurection of the body or the tabernacle and that the early belivers were expecting to be raptured or resurected and thus not die, hence the "if our tabernacle dissolves" in Pauls statement, thus this resurection that Jesus spoke of could not have happened before Paul. But like I said there could be different meanings behind what Jesus meant
Mark 9:1
And He said to them,
"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
and what Paul meant.
Perhaps There was a resurection in Jesus day a small one just for a few people, but the main resurection for all believers, where the dead in christ rise from their graves, this is the resurection that Paul was refering to I think, when he said That some say the resurection has passed already.
I think the biggest problem when discussing the resurection is that people confuse the physical resurection with the spiritual resurection, the same problem that the sadduces and pharises had.
Quote from: thinktank on December 18, 2010, 04:07:41 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 18, 2010, 04:02:04 AM
Theory?
Does Paul ever speak of anything else but JESUS?
So your saying I'm correct, that what Paul said is true? That the resurection as not passed yet, at the time he Paul spoke it?
You may Thinktank that the Word of God is theory,
but do not say that it is my theory.
They are His words.
If you do not believe the Word of God then God help you.
Do not be offended beloved servant, I'm sure you think a lot of my beliefs and others are theory too, so why take offence on something that is inevitable in this world of veiling and unveiling. What else would you rather me call your interpretation? I am not going to call it anything other than theory, because I cannot call it truth unless I have revealtion on it and the words of Paul who said some say the resurection has already passed do make me wonder whether there was a rapture resurection in Jesus day.
I do not call the word theory, but the interpretation of it, and if you read my post you will notice that I did not come to any conclusive conclusions, regarding Mark 9:1
If you cannot handle that, that I am working things out, then that is your own affair.
But if I have caused offence to something you hold dear, whatever that may be :dontknow: then may Jesus heal your heart and place a cage of armour around it for protection. Amen
I think nothing of you.
You are neither hot nor cold.
No worries, glad your over the matter.
It is my understanding that the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven is NOT the resurrection that God is announcing through Paul (2nd resurrection).
As I have said before, the Kingdom of God is the manifestation of God's power through Christ's body which started when the spirit descended on the disciples.