Lucifer fact or fiction ?

[Sally Anne]

I have been digging around on this alleged fall of Satan and discovered something extremely interesting....

I went on Bible Gateway and did a keyword search for Lucifer in every single English Translation.  To my amazement I only found Lucifer in the following:

New King James
King James
21st Century St. James
Darby

The above four translations had only one mention of Lucifer and that was Isiah 14:12

One other translation "The Message" actually used Lucifer in Revelation 2:4.

Every single other translation came back "subject not found".

If this doesn't show you the inaccuracies of Bible translations, I don't know what will !!!!!!!

Almost everyone that I know, thinks that Satan's name is Lucifer and it appears that this is a bunch of made up b...s......
I feel sorry for anyone that happened to be named Lucifer because contrary to the fact that Lucifer is a "bright shining star" (which would be a pretty good thing to name your kid)...people would think that the parents named him a little devil !!!!!!

If anyone doesn't believe me...go to Bible Gateway and do the search for yourself !!!!!!
Speaking of translations.....can anyone recommend a good, computer accessible for free, translation.

[WhiteWings]

I believe you SA :thumbsup:

I think it's beyond translation errors.
It's ramming doctrine down ones throat.
It's the job of those writing commentaries.
For tranlations I call it adding/removing from the word.

[WhiteWings]

I went on Bible Gateway and did a keyword search for Lucifer in every single English Translation.  To my amazement I only found Lucifer in the following:

Lucifer is a good translation on itself. It's Latin. And when you say Latin you say Roman. And when you say Roman.... :winkgrin:

Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which "Day Star" or "Morning Star" or "The Star of the East" are more common expressions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer


So the translation is not really wrong. But using it elsewhere is what's wrong.
I've even seen a view Jesus is Lucifer. Jesus is the light of the world. Lucifer means bringer of light. Jesus also brings light. And that basicly mean Jesus=Venus....

[micah7:9]

I have been digging around on this alleged fall of Satan and discovered something extremely interesting....

I went on Bible Gateway and did a keyword search for Lucifer in every single English Translation.  To my amazement I only found Lucifer in the following:

New King James
King James
21st Century St. James
Darby

The above four translations had only one mention of Lucifer and that was Isiah 14:12

One other translation "The Message" actually used Lucifer in Revelation 2:4.

Every single other translation came back "subject not found".

If this doesn't show you the inaccuracies of Bible translations, I don't know what will !!!!!!!

Almost everyone that I know, thinks that Satan's name is Lucifer and it appears that this is a bunch of made up b...s......
I feel sorry for anyone that happened to be named Lucifer because contrary to the fact that Lucifer is a "bright shining star" (which would be a pretty good thing to name your kid)...people would think that the parents named him a little devil !!!!!!

If anyone doesn't believe me...go to Bible Gateway and do the search for yourself !!!!!!
Speaking of translations.....can anyone recommend a good, computer accessible for free, translation.

http://lookhigher.net/englishbibles/theleeserbible/genesis/1.html

[micah7:9]

I went on Bible Gateway and did a keyword search for Lucifer in every single English Translation.  To my amazement I only found Lucifer in the following:

Lucifer is a good translation on itself. It's Latin. And when you say Latin you say Roman. And when you say Roman.... :winkgrin:

Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which "Day Star" or "Morning Star" or "The Star of the East" are more common expressions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer


So the translation is not really wrong. But using it elsewhere is what's wrong.
I've even seen a view Jesus is Lucifer. Jesus is the light of the world. Lucifer means bringer of light. Jesus also brings light. And that basicly mean Jesus=Venus....

Very true :thumbsup:

[Sally Anne]

Thanks Micah and White Wings.....excellent information :ty:

[Molly]

Lucifer is the Latin name given to the Hebrew name Heylel ben Shachar which in English is The Shining One, son of the morning.

The name of Lucifer was first used by the early church fathers, Origen, Tertullian, and Jerome.

It was preserved by the translators of the King James Bible.

My  :2c:

[Nancy]

Hi there Sally Anne,
I believe that the King of Babylon was referred to as Lucifer. I'm not sure where the particular passage is but you could look at a concordance.

Godbless
Nancy

[WhiteWings]

Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)

[Molly]

I don't know what the word 'howl' is all about ww, but it looks like there is only one instance of the Hebrew word 'Heylel" showing up in the Old Testament.


Strong's H1966 - heylel הֵילֵל


Strong's Number H1966 matches the Hebrew הֵילֵל (heylel), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV
Page 1 / 1 (Isa 14:12 - Isa 14:12)


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen5307 from heaven8064, O Lucifer1966, son1121 of the morning7837 3213 ! [how] art thou cut down1438 to the ground776, which didst weaken2522 the nations1471!


Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

[Molly]

CREATION OF LUCIFER

The name, "Lucifer" (KJV and NKJV), is a Latin word meaning the "shining one" or "light-bearer"; it appears in the Vulgate (Isa. 14:12) and translates a Hebrew word which means "Day Star" (ESV)—in the NIV the Hebrew word is translated as "morning star," and as "star of the morning" in the NASB.

Though the Hebrew term was never intended to be a proper name, it has come to be so regarded through the influence of Tertullian and Origen, who interpreted the passage in Isaiah as referring to Satan. Also, in Paradise Lost Milton used the word, "Lucifer," as a name for Satan. Therefore, "Lucifer" has become the popular and accepted name for Satan in his original position, applied to him from the time of his creation until his sin in heaven, after which he has been referred to as Satan and the Devil. It is interesting to note that this Latin term also has been used for the planet we know as Venus, one of the brightest objects in the night sky.

As with all creatures and all things, Lucifer's existence is the result of the creative act of God (see: Work of Creation); Day Star exists because God made him. This immediately distinguishes him from the Creator and causes him to be dependent upon the Creator—Day Star is a contingent creature. He is neither self-determined nor autonomous. It is good to be reminded of this when the Bible speaks of his power, for it is a power that is derived. Day Star is not the almighty one; his power is not infinite. Though his ability may be superior to that of man, his ability does not begin to compare to the Infinite; in fact, there is no comparison.

Tradition has assigned the creation of Lucifer to Ezekiel 28:11-15, a passage which seems to intermingle two topics, if indeed these verses report the creation of Lucifer. In the text "the prince of Tyre" is addressed by Ezekiel with "the word of the Lord" (v. 1), a word which confronts the prince with his claim that he is "a god" but which also informs him that "you are but a man, and no god" (v. 2). The word from God to the prince continues through the first ten verses of Chapter 28.

Then the subject delicately changes in verse 11. Instead of "the prince of Tyre," "the king of Tyre" is addressed, who is said to have been "in Eden" (v. 13); perhaps this is just a change of wording, or perhaps two subjects are interwoven and yet separate. What we have is conceivably a reference to the evil being behind the historical person; the descriptions seem to go beyond the mere earthly ruler to a spiritual ruler. The movement is from the historical ruler of Tyre to the unseen but very real and personal being behind his secular kingdom.

Many exegetes would reject the association of this passage, as well as Isaiah 14:12-15, with Lucifer, his creation and his fall respectively, and would limit both of them to Tyre and Babylon and their earthly rulers. But the association suggested in the above paragraph is worthy of consideration for several reasons.

First, it seems obvious that the passage is addressing more than just the leader of Tyre with such statements as: "full of wisdom," "perfect in beauty," "you were in Eden," "the day you were created," "you were an anointed guardian cherub," "you were on the holy mountain of God," "you were blameless in your ways," "your heart was proud because of your beauty," and "I cast you to the ground." Such statements suggest a greater being than just the human sovereign of Tyre; it is not inconceivable to entertain the possibility that the references are to the spiritual being behind the earthly ruler, namely Satan who is empowering the prince of Tyre.

In addressing the spiritual power behind the earthly power, God is revealing the profundity of evil that provides the basis for the position, character, and activity of the earthly ruler. The face of the ruler of Tyre conceals a more powerful and unseen face that empowers and directs him. The former is "the prince of Tyre" (v. 1), while the latter is "the king of Tyre" (v. 13). By addressing both, God is exposing the visible and the invisible evil. The lesson to be learned from this is that there is more to evil than meets the eye—the authentic evil is seldom visualized.

Second, there is an intimate association between Satan and world governments, for he is "the ruler of this world" (Jo. 12:31; see Ruler of this World). In the words of Augustine, this world system is the city of man and is dominated by sin and Satan. So, it should not be incomprehensible that in two passages relating to the epitomes of such a system, Tyre (Ezek. 28:1-15) and Babylon (Isa. 14:1-15), the text incorporates not only the earthly but the evil power behind the earthly.

Earthly kingdoms are not free from spiritual influence, perhaps this is much more than is usually accepted by the current secular culture; but it is the reality that is taught in Scripture. Daniel speaks of "the prince of the kingdom of Persia," an evil demon who opposed a lesser angel bringing a message to Daniel, but Michael the archangel finally confronted the demon and Daniel received the message (10:13). Behind the visible political power exists an invisible spiritual network of evil that energizes and directs the affairs of governments. Often the believer is caught up in the intrigue, as illustrated by Daniel, without knowing the magnitude of that which affects him.

On the individual level, the earthly conflict of the believer is a reflection of a greater conflict: "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places" (Eph. 6:12). Our real enemy is not that which we see but that which we do not see; it is not primarily flesh and blood, but the invisible forces of evil that war against us and against God. If our eyes were opened like the eyes of the servant of Elisha we would see the comprehensiveness and magnitude of the evil that we face and the working of God to thwart the forces of evil (II Ki. 6:15-17).

Third, the association of the passage with Satan has ancient roots. While not the accepted interpretation by the Jews, Christian writers from the early centuries made the connection between these two passages and Satan. Historically, the identification can be traced back to Church Fathers, such as Tertullian in Against Marcion, Origen in De Principis and Against Clesus, and Jerome in his translation in the Vulgate.

Generally, Reformed thinkers disallow the association of the passages in Ezekiel and Isaiah with Satan; Calvin is emphatic as well as Hodge in their rejection, while Boice accepts the connection in Foundations as well as Erickson in his Christian Theology. But most modern commentaries deny that the origin and fall of Satan are found in Ezekiel and Isaiah respectively. In the popular mind, however, the assumption remains, and some commentaries reference the identification of Isaiah's account with Satan: "The passage transcends anything that can be said of an earthly king and has been understood from earliest times to also refer to Satan's fall as described in Luke 10:18" (Franz Delitzsch, Biblical Commentary on the Prophecies of Isaiah, 1875).

If Satan's creation is given by Ezekiel in Chapter 28, then he was created with the following characteristics:

            intelligence – "full of wisdom," v. 12;

            beauty – "perfect in beauty, v. 12, and "every precious stone was your covering," v. 13;

            talent – "your timbrels and pipes," v. 13;

            position – "the anointed cherub who covers," "you were on the holy mountain of God,"
            and "you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones," v. 14;

            perfection – "the seal of perfection," v. 12, and "perfect in your ways," v. 15.

The time of Satan's creation, as well as the rest of the angelic world, is not specified in the Scriptures. It is usually accepted that the angels were created during the week of creation, perhaps on day one or day four, when the sun, moon, and stars were created; in the Law it affirms that in six days God created the heavens and the earth "and all that is in them" (Ex. 20:11). The "all" would include the material and the spiritual world, both the cosmos and the angelic host.

The existence of Satan is never a problem in the Scriptures; both Testaments speak of him, with the greater number of references being in the New Testament. In the two main divisions of the Canon, Satan is regarded as historical, with his historicity never questioned nor discussed; his existence is simply accepted.

In the Old Testament Satan is referenced in Gen. 3:1; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; I Chron. 21:1; Zech. 3:1-2; and possibly Ezek. 28:11-15; and Isa. 14:12-15.

In the New Testament, there are multiple references: Matt. 4:1; Lu. 10:18; Jo. 8:44; 12:31; II Cor. 11:14; Eph. 2:2; I Pet. 5:8; I Jo. 3:8; Rev. 12:3-4; and 20:2; these are just a sampling.   


http://www.embracedbytruth.com/Sin/Reality%20of%20Satan/Creation%20of%20Lucifer.htm

[micah7:9]

Sister you need to get out of that "stuff."
I say that with all respect.
Did it ever occur to you that a latin word, name does  not work into the Hebrew? 
"I don't know what the word 'howl' is all about ww, but it looks like there is only one instance of the Hebrew word 'Heylel" showing up in the Old Testament." Molly
Look further in to the word "'Heylel"
Check out Lamsa, George. Isa. 14 and the word/name lucifer is a christian/religon hoax. Read the chapter. Ezk. 28 is just as fraile.

[SonicSpeed]

WW ...this is a serious question .Where do you guys get your knowledge about words and languages that were spoken like 3000 years ago ?Not anything against this ..infact i just want to have access to such knowledge aswell ,but where can it be attained ?

To the topic : It will be interesting if i could make some searches of this kind .This might reveal differencies between the translations .There might be differencies ,but what counts are the things that are in common and have no differencies .This might lead to some discoveries .

[micah7:9]

WW ...this is a serious question .Where do you guys get your knowledge about words and languages that were spoken like 3000 years ago ?Not anything against this ..infact i just want to have access to such knowledge aswell ,but where can it be attained ?

To the topic : It will be interesting if i could make some searches of this kind .This might reveal differencies between the translations .There might be differencies ,but what counts are the things that are in common and have no differencies .This might lead to some discoveries .

My friend, get a shovel and a condordance, find a few other translations, check out sites and weight what you find in the Holy Spirit. Pray, seek His face. Work.         
Love you  my friend.

[Beloved Servant]

 :thumbsup:

[Pierac]

I went on Bible Gateway and did a keyword search for Lucifer in every single English Translation.  To my amazement I only found Lucifer in the following:

Lucifer is a good translation on itself. It's Latin. And when you say Latin you say Roman. And when you say Roman.... :winkgrin:

Indeed, it's the only Latin word used in the O.T.  :2c:

Now why is that?  :wink:
Paul

[Beloved Servant]

why?

[micah7:9]

Cuz

[Beloved Servant]

lol

[Beloved Servant]

Now that's terse!
lol, gotta love it, Micah.
I just had a good laugh re-reading the other thread, and now this!

[micah7:9]

Now that's terse!
lol, gotta love it, Micah.
I just had a good laugh re-reading the other thread, and now this!

Hey what other thread? And spread the humor. :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

Your reply, #6, to Thinktank, in "The Bottomless Pit."

[micah7:9]

Your reply, #6, to Thinktank, in "The Bottomless Pit."

I never replied in #6 that was Molly.

[Beloved Servant]

...just checked.
Yep, it was you, Micah.
...and still funny!

[micah7:9]

#6 « Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 12:58:55 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lucifer is the Latin name given to the Hebrew name Heylel ben Shachar which in English is The Shining One, son of the morning.

The name of Lucifer was first used by the early church fathers, Origen, Tertullian, and Jerome.

It was preserved by the translators of the King James Bible.

My   

Thinktank aint on this post!