Is Satan a fallen angel ?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thanks, I'll try it......what would I do without you as my personal tech support?  :laughing7:  :thumbsup:

[Molly]

In Psalm 82, we are given a glimpse of the divine council, where YHWH is judging the gods and telling them they will die like men.  In other words, he is stripping them of their immortality.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

--Psa 82


"God" [standeth]

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



[in the] "congregation"

H5712
עדה
‛êdâh
ay-daw'
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare H5713.


[of the] "mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."



[he judgeth among]


"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

[Sally Anne]

We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

Molly, I do not see how you conclude that Satan is part of this assembly.  "Satan came also among them" to me does not constitute being one of them.

[Quaesitor]

In Psalm 82, we are given a glimpse of the divine council, where YHWH is judging the gods and telling them they will die like men.  In other words, he is stripping them of their immortality.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

--Psa 82


"God" [standeth]

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



[in the] "congregation"

H5712
עדה
‛êdâh
ay-daw'
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare H5713.


[of the] "mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."



[he judgeth among]


"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

Jesus answered them, Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

John 10:34

[Molly]

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

--John 10

[Quaesitor]

Sure context is important but the context here does not change what Jesus is saying.
It's a mystery, I know, I'm still veiled about it but it shows that your conclusion could be false.

These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

These gods could be men and it could be happening on earth. Not saying it is but it could.

[micah7:9]

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

"Behold, I have created the smith [that's me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO'S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?


There are no fallen angels in the Bible, especially not the adversary.

[Quaesitor]

Awesome verse!

[Molly]

Sure context is important but the context here does not change what Jesus is saying.
It's a mystery, I know, I'm still veiled about it but it shows that your conclusion could be false.

These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

These gods could be men and it could be happening on earth. Not saying it is but it could.

Or it could be both in the way that Eze passage is.

Because this is referring to something other than an earthly king of Tyrus:

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

--Eze 28

[Beloved Servant]

  "MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44).
In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very mists of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He hath purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
           The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "abode not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of , I keep my standing, or simply I stand, and the form is meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HATH NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him." The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth is not in him." J.B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is liar and the father of lies."
           MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8).
           This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit – it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned.
          Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8
                                                                       W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M  T-H-E  B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G!
Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says – and I believe it does – we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL."
— Eby                                                       

[jabcat]

 :boogie:

[micah7:9]

:boogie:

:happy3:

[Molly]

He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

So who is he?  The 'snake'?  Who is the murderer from the beginning?  And, what beginning are we talking about?  Because we know the elohim already existed when God created the earth.  That would mean that Gen 3 is not the beginning beginning.  It's the beginning of the foundation [in the sense of casting down] of the world.



4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38


"sons of God"

bên 'ĕlôhı̂ym


Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


And why is everyone dancing?

[jabcat]

I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

[Molly]

I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

OK lol.

I'm thinking Jesus was talking about the beginning of the age--starting with Gen 3.

Which again, doesn't preclude Satan pre-existing Adam.

Because there was no one to murder in the very beginning.

[Sally Anne]

Satan is the old serpent...evil from the beginning and has nothing to do with angels, elohim, etc.  He is the accuser, murderer, created by God to be evil.  God uses evil for ultimate good.
I believe what fell from heaven was one of the two  cherubim named Moelech....who was also in Eden wasn't he ? guarding the tree of life ?

[Molly]

Molech is a 'god' isn't he?  Solomon is building alters to him and the Israelites are sacrificing their children to him.  That would make him one of the elohim [gods].

The New Testament calls Satan a god.


1 Kings 11:7
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

[Cardinal]

[ 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38

:cloud9: Did you notice there that the "morning stars" is the same as the meaning for Lucifer? Did a bunch of "Lucifers-Satans" sing together? Overcomers are told they will be given the morning star.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16 KJV
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Malachi 4:2 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth , and grow up as calves of the stall.


And in Matt. 13 we are told that the righteous shall shine forth as the SUN (morning star).

Matt. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When you do a study on Genesis, it literally says the light came out of the hidden light. What is significant about that is, that our spirit is as a shaft or wave of light that came out of the hidden light (Godhead) and to God will it return.

The morning star is the Sun, the greater glory set in the heavens. Just as the Sun arises, so the Son is arising in the hearts of those that are seeking His face, and they will shine as rays of the Sun in the Kingdom of their Father.

Just the fact that 99% of Christendom believes Satan is Lucifer, is reason enough to be a red flag to me, as if the carnal mind can ascertain that at first glance, then there is no need for the Spirit to teach us. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Molly]

The name of the father of Mesba, Chemosh-melek ("Chemosh is Malik" or "Chemosh is king"; compare Moabite Stone, line 1), indicates the possibility that Chemosh and Malik (or Moloch) were one and the same deity. Judges xi. 24 has been thought by some to be a proof of this, since it speaks of Chemosh as the god of the Ammonites, while Moloch is elsewhere their god (compare I Kings xi. 7, 33). Several critics regard the statement in Judges as a mistake; but such an error was not unnatural. since both Chemosh and Moloch were developed, in different environments, from the same primitive divinity, and possessed many of the same epithets.

Solomon is said to have built a sanctuary to Chemosh on the Mount of Olives (I Kings xi. 7, 33), which was maintained till the reform of Josiah (II Kings xxiii. 13). This movement by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, but it made the worship of Chemosh a part of the religious life of Israel for nearly 400 years.

However, according to II Kings xi. 7, evidence is given that Chemosh and Moloch were two different gods or perhaps two manifestations of the same god, at least to the peoples who worshiped them. Solomon had "high places" built for both gods at the same time and in the same location, "on the mountain which is East of Jerusalem." Both Chemosh and Molech may have had the same origins but if so, by Solomon's time they had been denominated into differing objects for different peoples, Chemosh for the Moabites and Moloch for the Ammonites. According to Genesis xix. 30-38, both the Moabites and the Ammonites were descended from the two sons of Lot (themselves half-brothers by his two daughters), Moab and Ben-ammi, which would corroborate the notion that they share a common origin.

--Wikipedia

[jabcat]

I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

OK lol.

I'm thinking Jesus was talking about the beginning of the age--starting with Gen 3.

Which again, doesn't preclude Satan pre-existing Adam.

Because there was no one to murder in the very beginning.

after the disruption?  (gap theory)

[Molly]

 

Did you notice there that the "morning stars" is the same as the meaning for Lucifer? Did a bunch of "Lucifers-Satans" sing together? Overcomers are told they will be given the morning star.

It's a different word--two words actually in Job 38.

"morning"

H1242
בּקר
bôqer
bo'-ker
From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning: -  (+) day, early, morning, morrow.


"stars"

H3556
כּוכב
kôkâb
ko-kawb'
Probably from the same as H3522 (in the sense of rolling) or H3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively a prince: - star ([-gazer]).


AND


Lucifer:  a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Transliteration: helel
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')
Short Definition: lucifer


"Lucifer"

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.



But I do see your point.  hmmm

Yet, isn't Satan called an angel of light?

Why wouldn't he be one of the shining ones if he is a god?

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


But--There is one other place where the Latin Lucifer is used and there it does refer to Jesus--the daystar of 2Peter 1:19


19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Here Lucifer is used to apply to Venus [the day star], as the brightest 'star' in the dawn sky.

[Molly]

PS day star of 2Peter 1:19   and morning star of Rev 22:16 are different Greek words, also.

The morning star of Rev 22:16 looks to me to be the equivalent of the Hebrew morning stars of Job 38.

Whereas the 2Peter daystar [Lucifer] is the word phosphoros:

G5459
φωσφόρος
phōsphoros
foce-for'-os
From G5457 and G5342; light bearing ("phosphorus"), that is, (specifically) the morning star (figuratively): - day star.


But we know Isa 14 is not talking about Jesus.

[micah7:9]

But Isa. 14 could be talking about adam, the characteristics are close. Also if you read the Lamsa translation which is translated from the Aramaic, Lamsa shows that the word "hêylêl" to be mistranslated and means to "howl." As the CLV has it and removes any thought of this "lucifer." Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"

I personally can not get my thinking even close to any teaching of Lucifer being a fallen angel, since the Bible says nothing at all about "fallen angels," I also firmily contend that if such an incident, that big and important, such as Elohim creating an angel(messenger) from or in the beginning(where ever that bebinning may be) to challenge His (God's) power, would not have been left up to the imaginations of men. 
The adversary is, I contend a spirit, whose persona or personality is able to move about as is its or his or hers purpose; and besides the Gen. 2:17 "...to die shall you be dying." which is not truely a murder.. Murder= H7523 râtsach A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
I dont read until Gen. 4:8 an actual "murder" "...Cain riseth up against Abel his brother, and slayeth him." slew or slayeth H2026 hârag
A primitive root; to smite with deadly intent: - destroy, out of hand, kill, murder (-er), put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), X surely.

These are just my studies and I realize that it goes against the grain of common teaching, I wrestle with this and I consider it more than  :2c: :bigGrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

[jabcat]

:cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

Interesting.   :thumbsup: