Tentmaker Forum

Hello all,

I have read a couple of conflicting positions on this subject.
One would have it that Satan was created evil by God in the beginning and essentially called the Old Serpent.

The other would have it that he was created as a beautiful angel and decided to rebel against God and as such was cast down.

I believe that the Scripture is a little confusing on this subject because there are passages in Ezekiel and Revelations which seemingly back up the cast down belief, yet there are passages which clearly state that he was created to be evil by God.

Anyone out there have some insight on this subject ?

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/serpent/Serpent.htm

http://www.godfire.net/Traducer.html

http://www.godfire.net/Lucifer.html

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/antichrist/antichrist1.htm

There's also the position that satan is the hebrew word for adversity which is a power/spirit running through mankind and which is all desires which are agaisnt God, in other words : carnality; the spirit of carnality.

But for me the important thing to believe is that whatever satan is, it has been created with a purpose and will serve that purpose untill discarded or reconciliated.
I do not fear satan anymore because my God is working ALL things in accord with His plan, satan/demons/evil men/sufferings/etc. are part of this ALL THINGS and are thus in the hands of God.

:2c:

The Bible calls Satan a god [the god of this age] and a 'cherub' who wanted to ascend above the the stars of YHWH.  Who are the stars of YHWH?  See Job 38:7--the morning stars sang together and Rev 2:28 I will give that one the morning star.  This is the place reserved for Adam that Satan wished to usurp by becoming Adam's ruler.


"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
--Isa 14


We know Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden.  But what did the nachash [Satan as enchanter] look like?  He must have been quite beautiful to behold.


Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
--Eze 28:13

No wonder he turned Eve's eye!

Quote from: Quaesitor on December 04, 2010, 07:27:07 PM
There's also the position that satan is the hebrew word for adversity which is a power/spirit running through mankind and which is all desires which are agaisnt God, in other words : carnality; the spirit of carnality.

But for me the important thing to believe is that whatever satan is, it has been created with a purpose and will serve that purpose untill discarded or reconciliated.
I do not fear satan anymore because my God is working ALL things in accord with His plan, satan/demons/evil men/sufferings/etc. are part of this ALL THINGS and are thus in the hands of God.

:2c:

Well said my friend :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

 :cloud9:  Yes it is  :thumbsup:  And for my  :2c:, Lucifer mentioned in there is not Satan..... :msealed:

            "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is not this the MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; that made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (Isa. 14:12-17). It should be clear to every enlightened student of God's Word that all truth has applications on different levels. It is my conviction that the inspired statements in the afore quoted passage may be applied on the historical level, the prophetical level, the spiritual level, and the personal level. In its first and historical application the one called "Lucifer" refers to the literal king of the Kingdom of Babylon in the days of Isaiah who – although mighty in political and military power and the most exalted ruler among nations – would fall just like other rulers of the past. The prophetical application points to the king of Mystery Babylon, the chief antichrist of the world's apostate church system, who is not recognized for what he is, but is lauded as the greatest religious leader in the world, by whom untold millions of those who name the name of Christ are deceived, as it is written, "And the whole world wondered after the beast." The spiritual application is found in the fall of man from his original position of glory, eminence and dominion. The message is clear – the subject of Isaiah's prophecy is a MAN – not an angelic spirit-being! "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this THE M-A-N that made the earth to tremble...that made the earth as a wilderness: that opened not the house of his prisoners?" (Isa. 14:16-17).

"Lucifer," instead of being the name of an angel who became the Devil, was THE NAME THE ANCIENT'S GAVE TO THE MORNING STAR. Pliny, a noted historian of antiquity, says, "Before the sun revolves, a very large star...when in advance and rising before dawn receives the name Lucifer, being another sun and bringing the dawn..." Lucifer, the light-bringer, is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word PHOSPHOROS, which is used as a title for Christ in II Pet.1:19. Peter had been discussing the glorious experience that he, along with James and John, had had with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. Speaking of the voice that spoke to them there, he said, "We have also a more sure word of prophecy whereunto ye do well to take heed... until the day dawn and the DAY STAR (Greek: phosphoros; Latin: lucifer) arise in your hearts." I do not have the ability to make this truth any plainer than Jesus Himself made it when He called Himself the PHOSPHOROS or the LUCIFER in Rev. 22:16, saying, "I AM... the BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR." In the messages of Christ to the seven churches in the book of Revelation a special promise was always given to him that overcometh, but to the church at Thyatira He gave a promise that is worthy to fill every page of this article. May our Lord give us the spirit of revelation to understand what He said: "And he that overcometh... 'I will give him THE MORNING STAR" (Rev. 2:26, 28). Just think of that! My beloved, ponder if you will – whether we call it "Day Star", "Morning Star", or "Lucifer" – it is all the same. This "rising of the Day Star" in our hearts is the out-raying of the Christ within, for, you see, HE IS the Day Star! It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that what is recovered through the redemption of Jesus Christ is WHAT ADAM HAD IN THE BEGINNING WITH GOD. Adam in the image and likeness of God was so indwelt by light, so a partaker of the Christ Life, that he was himself a DAY STAR – the shining one of creation!

Truly, Adam is the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms, and made the earth a wilderness, for it was to him and him alone that these terrible words were spoken, "Cursed is the ground (earth realm) for thy sake" (Gen. 3:17). As we meditate upon these sobering words of judgment, we cannot imagine words that more exactly describe the tragic picture of the fall of man from his exalted position in God. Driven from the garden, the Kingdom of Heaven on earth; the whole earth realm (cursed) with sorrow, sin and death for his sake; no more could Adam hear the voice of God walking in the cool of the day – he no longer possessed spiritual ears. No more could Adam eat of the blessed fruit of the tree of life – he no longer possessed a spiritual mind. No more could Adam behold the glories of that heavenly realm – he no longer possessed spiritual eyes. He who had never known anything but the rest of God was to labor and toil in the earth. The heavens were closed, the communion with the spirit was broken, and Adam found himself stripped of the life and light and dominion that had been his – he no longer possessed a spiritual nature. What a loss! What unspeakable loss!

In its personal application the king of Babylon – Lucifer – is you and me and everyman by our first birth – the identity of old Adam. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! When Adam fell, the loss was both his and upon every descendant of his – all were cast into a wilderness of spiritual desolation and shut up in the prison, house of sin, suffering, limitation and death. As one has written, "Now poor, sin-laden mankind darkened in mind and impoverished in spirit, is forever spending money for that which is not bread and laboring that which satisfieth not. Vainly they imagine that their thirst can be slaked by partaking of the stagnant waters of earth's fleshly cisterns. Like lost sheep they wander through the wilderness of life seeking satisfaction and finding none. Pace after place they roam in their pitiful search for the fountain that satisfies, but find it they never can until at last they come to Christ. They fill the bars and nightclubs to buy wine and strong drink that can do no more than dull their senses, unleashing their passions and rage. They throng the places of pleasure in their unending longing to satisfy the thirst that is within them. They fill their lives with the vanity of things and more things, only to find that all they have attained rises to mock them in the end." Ahh – how art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

When the Lord Jesus told his disciples that He beheld satan as lightning fall from heaven, He was saying that he had seen Satan FALL OUT OF HIS (JESUS) HEAVEN, or actually Jesus had seen Satan FALL BEFORE HIM, and become subservient to Him in the realm of the Spirit. So far as Jesus was concerned Satan was no longer in possession of any authority whatsoever. Jesus spake not of an historical event, but a living reality that He had seen occur within His own consciousness, life and ministry. THIS WE ALL MUST SEE AND KNOW if we are to have any sense of victory in our lives, if we are to truly walk as the sons of God. We must realize that if satan has fallen he is not the almost-almighty head of a kingdom, but he has been stripped and his kingdom has been broken. This must be embraced as a wonderful reality within ourselves. When we realize that satan has fallen before THE CHRIST WITHIN US, then we really will be set free! When this truly happens we are on our way – not to a rapture – but to that high and holy position that God has created for us and determined to bring us to.

To those who have Satan yet in their consciousness elevated to a position of power and who carry in their thinking an image of him, HE HAS NOT AS YET FALLEN. Such people have made a god of him, but in your life, precious one, He is to be cast down, and you are to know once and for all that THERE IS ONLY GOD WHO RULES ALL. If God is controlling a part of this world and Satan is running another part, may God indeed help us ! We would be under two governments and our lives would be a hell. But to some of us, at least, SATAN HAS FALLEN and has ceased to be a king in our domain. When this truth is revealed in power and glory within your deepest heart, for you, at last, THERE WILL BE NO DEVIL ANYMORE!

In closing this message I would share a beautiful and significant vision received by a sister in Argentina to whom the Lord has given abundance of revelations. I do not feel to comment, but leave it for the Holy Spirit to interpret this to your own heart. She relates...

"Rapping me in His love, He carried me away in spirit into the world of harmonic life and light. There, after His usual welcome of love and taking away my fears, He took me to look. When I did so, I saw what seemed to be dark, evil-looking teeth which were sharp, pointed, long and ugly. Coming out from these teeth was something very repugnant which He named "poison". Then God took something that was a part of His very own being and gave it to those ugly, hollow teeth that looked like great serpent fangs which were pouring out poison. This poison from the fangs flowed into that part of Himself which God had given to them, and in this way were fully satisfied. Flowing into the part which God had given, the poison was fully satiated. This part – which had come forth from Him and was a part of His own being – completely absorbed all the poison that these great Fangs poured forth" – end quote. What a Word!


http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes31.htm

Quote from: Cardinal on December 04, 2010, 11:25:19 PM
:cloud9:  Yes it is  :thumbsup:  And for my  :2c:, Lucifer mentioned in there is not Satan..... :msealed:

You got that right! Again, another less used affirmitive on this site :bigGrin: :happy3:

Somebody has got to first show me a "fallen angel" in the Bible other than mans assuming such. Its amazing to me the imaginatiion of mens minds, especiallly when some have come so far in His Word in understanding hell, and everlasting.

 :cloud9: @ Beloved.......AMEN

Thank you all for your replies.
It would appear that:
1) Lucifer is man and not Satan.
2)Satan is not an angel...Satan was created by God...is evil, is the opposing force....is and always was a Murderer and a Liar from the beginning.
3) Evil is the necessary opposite of good as without it what would good be...or what would be good !!!
4) Satan is the Old Serpent.

Do you people also think he (Satan) is the Dragon in Revelation....and what of the losing army of Satan and his angels....who is Satan's father....what does all this mean ???
p.s. I have read Preston Eby's account and am looking for supporting or contradictory opinions and/or positions.
thanks.

Rev 20:2 And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan, and binds him a thousand years."

Lucifer:  a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Transliteration: helel
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')
Short Definition: lucifer


"Lucifer"

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

Michael S. Heiser wrote:
Appearances Can Be Deceiving

It's probably not much of a risk on my part to assume that you've heard of or read the
story of the serpent and Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. But have you ever
wondered why Eve wasn't scared witless when the 'serpent'
spoke to her? If you go back and read the account in Genesis 3, there's simply no indication that she did anything
but suppress a yawn but why would that be the case? And, more to the point, what
does that have to do with the unfolding drama the Bible began with the creation of
humankind? And why did I put 'serpent' in quotation marks? So glad you asked.

Did You Notice the Problem?

Now, you might be thinking, Well, maybe animals back then could talk. I've read this
sort of thing before. I hope you'll pardon me when I say that's absurd. This isn't
interpretation of the text; it's evasion of the issue. The only other instance where we
have an animal speaking to a human being in the Bible is that of Balaam's donkey in
Numbers 22:22-41. In that case the speech was prompted by an appearance of the divine
vice regent, the Angel of the Lord, and the text plainly tells us that it was God who
enabled the donkey to speak (v. 28). That certainly isn't the case in Genesis 3 with the
serpent.

I know calling something absurd might not sound kind, but it's actually nicer than saying,
If you want to take that view, then I hope you can live with contradictions between
passages in the Bible,since that's where this view ultimately leads.

There are two other passages in the Old Testament that most scholars would say have
something to do with what happened in Eden in Genesis 3: Ezekiel 28:1-19 and Isaiah
14:1-22.1 In those passages God taunts and pronounces judgment on the kings of Tyre
and Babylon, respectively. To drive the point home that these kings deserve judgment,
the inspired prophet compares them to the supernatural being (a spectacular cherub in
Ezekiel 28, and Lucifer, son of the dawn in Isaiah 14) whose contemptuous pride
resulted in a failed coup against God.

Notice that these passages refer to a divine being, not a serpent. And that gets to the
heart of the issue. In both these passages, the primeval enemy of God, the being who
causes the fall of humankind into sin, is not a snake but some sort of supernatural being.
And it is absolutely certain the event referred to in Ezekiel 28 is that of Genesis 3, since
Ezekiel 28:13 mentions Eden and the garden.

Those who wish to argue that Lucifer appeared as a snake must cope with the fact that
there isn't a single biblical text that says Lucifer (or any other divine being) can change
into an animal. At best, this solution is simply a convenient escape hatch. And even if
there was such biblical evidence, it still doesn't answer why Lucifer would need or
choose to speak to Eve as a snake, or why Eve wasn't surprised. Having Lucifer appear
or possess a snake actually complicates matters, since this view still means that prior to
this assumed appearance or possession snakes didn't talk. Put another way, if Lucifer's
presence in the snake is the explanation for its speaking ability, then snakes didn't talk
before this happened. Eve still should have been shocked when the alleged snake started
the conversation. So the question remains: Who or what spoke to Eve, a literal snake,
member of the animal kingdom, or a supernatural being?

Animal, Vegetable, Mineral Or Something Else?

Fortunately, there's a simple answer for all this, but you might want to sit down first.
The reason why Eve wasn't shocked that a snake was talking to her is because she wasn't
talking to a snake. She was talking to a luminous divine being and not an animal of any
kind. That being may have had some sort of serpentine appearance, but he was not a
snake from the animal kingdom. To make my case to you we'll need to do two things:
(1) recall the ancient backdrop for the descriptions of the garden of Eden that I noted in
the last chapter; and (2) look at Genesis 3, Ezekiel 28, and Isaiah 14 very closely. We'll
start with the ancient backdrop.

In the last chapter I briefly sketched how the descriptions of the Garden of Eden in the
book of Genesis match descriptions of the location where, in both the Bible and other
ancient Near Eastern texts, the divine council lived or met for business. 2 Council
gatherings took place on a cosmic mountain, the place where heaven and earth
intersected, where divine decrees were given, and kingship was exercised. The cosmic
mountain was not only described as a mountain, but was also a well-watered place, a
beautiful garden.3 I pointed out that Eden is described as both a well-watered garden and
a "mountain"and the place where Yahweh announced his decision to create humanity to
his divine council. The description of Eden as a divine mountain comes from Ezekiel
28:13-14. The same chapter refers to Eden as the seat of the gods (moshab elohim).
The word seat of course refers to the place of administration, even in our own language
(county seat). The imagery is quite consistent. The only significant difference is that
in Ezekiel the enemy of God is a shining divine being, whereas it is a serpent in Genesis.
I'm arguing, of course, that this difference is only apparent.

But what about the plain wording of Genesis 3? Isn't the chapter crystal clear that the
thing talking to Eve was a snake? Actually, the vocabulary is clear, but the meaning that
traditional interpretation has given it is not, and has in fact produced the snake problem
noted above. The Hebrew word translated serpent or snake in Genesis 3 is nachash
(pronounced, nakash). More specifically, the word is ha-nachash. The prefixed ha is
the way Hebrew denotes a definite article (the word for the). So ha-nachash may be
said to mean 'the nachash.'

The word nachash is a very elastic term in Hebrew. It can function as a noun, a verb, or
even as an adjective. When nachash functions as a noun it means snake, and so the
traditional translation is possible but it yields the contradiction with Ezekiel 28 and
Isaiah 14 noted above. When nachash serves as a verb it means to practice
divination.5 That meaning could also be possible in Genesis 3 due to the deception or
going on Lucifer claiming to have the real word from God. When a verb receives an
article attached to it, the action of the verb is then transformed into a person doing the
action. Hence the word ha-nachash would then best be translated 'the diviner'.
The third option the adjectival meaning of nachash is the solution to the contradiction
problem. When nachash serves as an adjective, it's meaning is shining bronze or
polished (as in shiny). By adding the definite article to the word, ha-nachash would
then quite easily mean 'the shining one.' Angelic or divine beings are elsewhere
described in the Bible as shining or luminous, at times with this very word, nachash.6
We often don't think about how common this vocabulary of shining brilliance is for
angels and other divine beings. The Bible abounds with descriptions of such beings as
flashing or as lightning, or uses the brilliance of jewels to describe the blazing
appearance of such beings. This has important ramifications for solving the snake
problem.

What's so significant about translating ha-nachash as 'shining one' and not 'snake' in
Genesis 3? Very simply, 'shining one' is the literal meaning of Lucifer. The name
Lucifer is actually Latin and comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the Hebrew
Old Testament. In Isaiah 14:12, the Hebrew name of primeval conspirator against God is
Helel ben-Shachar, Shining One, son of the Dawn. Translating ha-nachash as
Shining One removes the contradiction of seeing a snake vs. a supernatural being in
Eden since it provides an explicit parallel between the two passages.

We have words like this in English if you think about it. The very same noun / verb /
adjective interplay is evident here:

(Noun): The cleanup is going to take a long time.
(Verb): We must clean up this oil spill.
(Adjective): The cleanup procedures need to be followed.

What results from this approach is that Eve was confronted by a member of the divine
council on the way to work, so to speak. She wasn't surprised, because she saw these
beings come and go with regularity. We get the flavor of this context in Genesis 3:22.
Following Adam and Eve's sin God laments that now the two have become as one of
us the same plural language as in Genesis 1:26. Eden was the place where council was
held. It just happened that on this day, one of them had a score to settle.

Personally, I think it quite possible that the choice of the word nachash in Genesis 3 was
designed as a double entendre. The enemy of God was a shining divine being that also
had a serpentine appearance. No, I'm not contradicting what I said above. Saying that
Eve was speaking to a divine being of serpentine appearance is different than saying she
was dealing with a snake from the animal kingdom. Ezekiel 28 supports this notion.

A Closer Look at Ezekiel and Isaiah

Neither the name Helel nor the word nachash appear in Ezekiel 28, but we do have a
corresponding description of Eden's villain. Note the underlined portions of Ezekiel
28:13-14:

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your
covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald,
and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the
day that you were created they were prepared. 14 You were a shining7 guardian
cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the
stones of fire8 you walked.

The point of the description is the same as Isaiah 14 and Genesis 3. The appearance of
the supernatural rebel in the garden of Eden is described with brilliant, shining jewels.
The description of this shining being as shining, guardian cherub points to a serpentine
appearance for this divine being, and therefore another parallel to Genesis 3. It is
common among Bible scholars to suppose that the cherubim were sphinx-like creatures,
based primarily on some carved depictions of thrones from Egypt and Phoenicia. Certain
carvings portray thrones that are, as in Ezekiel 1, supported by creatures with wings and
four faces. This perspective, while possible, isn't terribly coherent in Ezekiel 28. It
cannot account for why the being in Eden and so parallel to the entity in Genesis 3
isn't described as sphinx-like, or leonine, or having four faces. The reality is that the
meaning and derivation of the Hebrew word for cherub is uncertain.9 The most likely
possibility is that the term refers to a spirit being who guards or blesses (praises), or
which serves as the gatekeeper to the divine throne room, without respect to physical
appearance.

Curiously and perhaps tellingly those beings whose station is in God's throne room
and who are portrayed in the Old Testament as praising God in the throne room do have a
serpentine appearance (Isaiah 6). These beings are known to us as seraphim. Decades
ago scholars believed that the word saraph (the plural is seraphim) meant burning one
or fiery one since there was a Hebrew verb of that spelling with that meaning.
However, the common Hebrew noun saraph means serpent. Numbers 21:8 is but one
of the more obvious examples of this word and that meaning. For our purposes,
seraphim were not mere snakes from the animal kingdom, they had hands, feet, and
wings, and could speak (Isa 6:2, 6). They were apparently something both human-like
and serpentine.10 If cherub is merely a generic term for a being whose appointment
was in the throne room of God, this would account for why the adversary of Eve in Eden
is described with that term and yet as nachash in Genesis 3.

But what about the curses of Genesis 3? Surely those rule out a translation of Shining
One and help us salvage the traditional view, despite its problems. This approach is a
bit misguided, since the curses describe the nachash in terms of what he would be after
he was punished, not before. In fact, the curses make far more sense if they are directed
at a fallen divine being than a mere snake. Why? Let me point out a couple of the most
apparent reasons.

First, consider the cursing of the nachash with respect to Eve. God tells the nachash that
there will be enmity or some sort of adversarial relationship between the offspring of
Eve (human beings, not necessarily female) and the offspring of the nachash. What are
we to make of this if the nachash is only a snake from the animal kingdom?

Commentators have danced around that issue for millennia. The fact is that all humans
do not hate or fear snakes, and snakes do not by nature exist to attack or harass humans.
In Gen. 3:14 we read that God curses the nachash to eat dust all the days of his life.
Snakes do not eat dirt as a means of sustenance, and so the curse is not meant to be taken
literally. This of course has given rise to the notion that before the Fall snakes were
upright animals, an idea for which I have even seen some Christian commentators
appeal to evolutionary biology! If this kind of literalism is brought to the passage, then
one is pressed to answer questions like: How do we know which parts of the curse are
figurative and which are literal? In what way is it the worst curse to crawl on the
ground? (cursed are you above all livestock). Other creatures crawl on their belly, and
so their fate is at least as bad. And there are worse fates in the animal kingdom. Some
creatures live only to be eaten by others. I would suggest that snakes were created by God
the way we know them today and that their method of propulsion has nothing to do with
what happened in Genesis 3.

Lastly, in case you're still stuck on the first verse of Genesis 3, I need to let you in on a
secret. Check a variety of English translations on Genesis 3:1. Many will have something
like, Now the serpent was craftier than any of the other beasts of the field . . . Surely
the fact that Genesis 3:1 says the other beasts means that the serpent was an animal,
right? I could agree with that, but the secret is that the word other isn't in the Hebrew
text! It's supplied by translators interpretively. The text literally says, Now the serpent
was craftier than any beasts of the field, to which I say, no kidding, he was a divine
being, so he ought to be smarter! Rather than argue in favor of the nachash being a
snake, a member of the animal kingdom, Genesis 3:1 implies that the nachash was a
superior being.

Frankly, I think a more serious question in all this should be put to those who want a
snake in the garden: How can this curse in Genesis 3:14 be reconciled with the
punishment of Eden's divine rebel described in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28? A look at the
passages below will tell you immediately that there is nothing like what is traditionally
imagined in Genesis 3 in these other Eden passages. In Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 the rebel
is punished by banishment to Sheol (the Hebrew place of the dead and punishment, see
below) or being cast to the earth. These descriptions are hopelessly irreconcilable with
Genesis 3 if one has an animal, a snake, in view. Note the specific underlined
punishments:

More here....

http://www.michaelsheiser.com/MHeiserChapter5Nachash.pdf

Amazing and this is now thinking. If satan/the adversary fell from someplace, please where was that from.  I had more to ask and add but Im afraid to mention the thoughts, I still have yet to find a "fallen angel" in the Book.

Start here:

Introduction to the Divine Council.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/Introduction%20to%20the%20Divine%20Council%20MTIT.pdf

Genesis 6:4

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


"giants"

H5303
נפל    נפיל
nephı̂yl  nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307; properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.



H5307
נפל
nâphal
naw-fal'
A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitively or causatively, literally or figuratively): - be accepted, cast (down, self, [lots], out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell (-ing), fugitive, have [inheritamce], inferior, be judged [by mistake for H6419], lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present (-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.



The Nephilim: which means "Those who fell or the fallen ones."

16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
--Eze 28



Luke 10:18
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 :cloud9: @ Molly.....I have a problem on my computer getting pdf files to open. Any chance you could post at least the pertinent excerpts?

Hi,

Here is part of an article about Satan and the king of Tyre.   The article can be found here.
  It is a very interesting article. To get the full understanding of this I suggest one read the whole article.
http://www.askelm.com/temple/t000901.htm

The Two Cherubim with the Ark of the Covenant Had Personal Names

We now come to an interesting fact that many of you may never have seen before. Do you realize that the two Cherubs that made up the one image in the Holy of Holies had personal names and that the Israelites called them by those individual names? That is right. Those names are revealed in the Holy Scriptures. Recall that Jeremiah (according to the historical account from Second Maccabees) said that he took the Tent (or Tabernacle) that housed the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. 1 This separate "Tabernacle" is mentioned in First Kings 1:39. This was a small Tent that became associated always with the Ark of the Covenant. This is the Tent that Jeremiah took along with the Ark to bury across the Jordan River east of Jericho. 2

These factors concerning the small Tent that accompanied the Ark of the Covenant becomes a major key in identifying the names of the two heavenly Cherubim that the two images (soldered together as one image) depicted on earth. That key comes from Amos chapter 5. Notice this scriptural indication.

"Have you offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O House of Israel? But you have borne the Tabernacle [the special Tent] of your Moloch and Chiun your images [there were two images], the star of your Elohim [the Star — a single "star" of your "gods"], which you made to yourselves."

Amos 5:25–26

What kind of a Tent (or Tabernacle) contained two images that were indeed a single "Star" (an image molded together into one image of two heavenly beings)? This was the special Tent that was erected over the Ark of the Covenant that contained the two Cherubim that faced one another with their wings outstretched toward each other over the Mercy [Covering] Seat that contained the sacred items within the Ark of the Covenant. In the plainest of language, we have the two Cherubim named by the Israelites. One of them was Moloch (which is the Hebrew word for "King" or "King Star" which was the name given to the planet Jupiter). The other was Chiun (which was another name for the planet Saturn, the furthest planet observable by the naked eye in our solar system).

Now note this. When the two Cherubim were first constructed at the beginning of the forty years wandering of the Israelite Exodus period, Moses was told to have the two Cherubs facing one another. This represented Jupiter (a closer planet to earth) facing Saturn (the furthest visible planet from earth) in a conjunction with each other in the sky. Now Jupiter takes about 12 years to traverse the path of the Sun (which means to orbit the Sun) while Saturn takes about 30 years to do the same thing. If the two planets are shown in conjunction with one another (that is, as the Cherubim were shown in the Tabernacle and Temple) facing one another, it will take just over 20 years for the two planets to be exactly in the same position of the sky together and in conjunction again.

It is interesting that the great Massing of the Planets in Taurus (the Bull) that happened on May 5/6 of this year (2000 A.D.), and which I mentioned last year in a Prophetic Report, was also a time when Moloch (Jupiter) and Chiun (Saturn) once again "faced each other" as they did in the time that Moses ordered the Ark of the Covenant to be placed in the Holy of Holies at the beginning of the Exodus. At that time in May of this year [2000], Jupiter and Saturn (as seen from earth) were about 2 degrees from each other, and both (of course) were in Taurus (the Bull) and very near "facing each other" after an absence of just over 20 years. But precisely on May 27, 2000, the two planets came to an exact "facing." They "faced each other in a marvelous conjunction" (only about one degree latitude separated them).

As just mentioned, this would have been how the two planets were situated when Moses had the Ark of the Covenant constructed. Then they had 2 times 20 years (or 40 years) for the period of the Exodus that Amos 5:25 mentioned. There was then to be a period of 480 years (1 Kings 6:1) for the start of Solomon building the Temple in Jerusalem (that is 24 times 20 years — a significant biblical number).

The next time in our modern period that Jupiter and Saturn (or Moloch and Chiun) "face each other" will be on December 21, 2020 when they appear at the very beginning of the sign Aquarius (not Taurus). So, in just over 20 years we find that Jupiter (Moloch) and Saturn (Chiun) "face each other" again to become like a "Single Star." 3

The early Israelites noticed this remarkable astronomical phenomenon of these two planets and they gave religious value to it. Indeed, they began to worship the two Cherubim (named Moloch and Chiun that symbolized Jupiter and Saturn) and they fell into an idolatrous worship of those two Cherubs (and their images in the Holy of Holies) for the whole period of the forty years wandering in the wilderness. They were even continuing the practice (and even with worse consequences) in the time of the prophet Amos (Amos 5:25–26). 4 Stephen even referred to the same practice in his discourse before the Sanhedrin in the year following Christ's crucifixion:

"Yea, you took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which you made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon."

Acts 7:43

Note that Stephen then called Saturn by the name "Remphan" which is a Greek translation of the earlier Semitic term "Chiun." Those images of Cherubs did great harm in Israel.

There are people today who are still enamored with this Ark of the Covenant (and its two Cherubs named Moloch and Chiun). Without doubt, if the Ark could be once again discovered, they would readily place the two Cherubs right back in any newly built Temple in Jerusalem. The human tendency is strong to do it. The fact is, however, Jeremiah saw the idolatry that had developed over the two Cherubs so he (under inspiration of God, in my view) took the special Tent of the Cherubs as well as the two images of the Cherubs molded into one image and hid it away. Then he wrote Jeremiah 3:14–18 that the true people of God would no longer require the Tent or the Ark of the Covenant in which to worship God.

And there was another reason why Jeremiah took those two images out of the Holy of Holies. That is because ONE OF THOSE VERY CHERUBS became a sinner of the first magnitude. That one Cherub had done such evil in heaven that he had been thrown out of his exalted position next to the throne of God and was in the time of Jeremiah and Ezekiel considered by God as an evil being — a Cherub that had gone wrong. Which of the two Cherubs was the one who went wrong? The prophet Ezekiel tells us.

One of the Cherubs Depicted on the Ark of the Covenant Had Fallen From Grace
Notice what Ezekiel had to say about one of the Cherubs who had formerly been a righteous spirit being of very high rank in the heavenly hierarchy of divine beings associated with the very Throne of God Himself. This particular Cherub had become rebellious and as a result God had rejected him. Which Cherub was it?

"Moreover the word of YHWH came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king [Moloch or Melek] of Tyrus, and say unto him, 'Thus says the Lord YHWH;

you [Moloch] seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
 
You have been in Eden the garden of Elohim; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created.
 
You are the anointed [Messianic] cherub that covers; and I have set you so:
 
you were upon the holy mountain of Elohim;
 
you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire [to mimic this, the Israelites caused their firstborn to "pass through the fire" 5].
 
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you. By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God [Moloch would be jettisoned from God's Holy Temple in heaven and on earth]: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire [where the children sacrificed to Moloch were placed].
 
Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness [Moloch was a bright planet in the heavens at times]: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.
 
You have defiled your sanctuaries [both in Jerusalem and in Tyre] by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you [like the firstborn children of Israelites were burnt to ashes in sacrifice]. All they that know you among the people shall be astonished at you: you shall be a terror, and never shall you be any more.'"

Ezekiel 28:11–19

There you have it! It was Moloch (represented by the planet Jupiter) that was the sinning Cherub. The other Cherub was named Chiun (represented by the planet Saturn with the Sabbath being his day of consecration for worshipping him). But the Sabbath was made by God for His people to rest, and it was not made for Chiun (Saturn). The early Israelites took the command of God to make the images of the Cherubim and place them in the Holy of Holies as an example given by God to worship those Cherubim (named Moloch and Chiun). This was one of the commands that God gave to the Israelites in the time of Moses that WAS NOT GOOD for the Israelites because it led them into idolatry (Ezekiel 20:25–26). It would do the same today.

But with Ezekiel condemning the practice of having the Ark of the Covenant (and its two Cherubs named Moloch and Chiun) in an idolatrous form of worship, and with Jeremiah even hiding the Ark of the Covenant with its special Tent east of Jericho and across the Jordan River, that put an end to such false worship in the Temple built by Zerubbabel.

In the Temple of Herod (which was in existence in the time of Jesus), there was no Ark of the Covenant displayed in physical form in the Holy of Holies. Though the actual Ark of the Covenant is still in heaven (Revelation 11:19), it was not looked on as proper by God-fearing people to have the Ark again placed in a Temple at Jerusalem since we find Jeremiah and Ezekiel objecting to its placement in the Temple.

At our end of the age, however, we are told in the Book of Revelation that there will once more be an image of a wild beast (remember that the Cherubs are shown as having four faces: one of a man, an eagle, a bull and a lion — which equals a "wild beast"). This image of the wild beast (probably in the form of Moloch the King) will again be placed in a Temple in Jerusalem as described in Revelation chapter 11. This "Image of the Beast" (or, it means that one or both of the Cherubim will be replaced in a new Temple — remember that there were two images of the Cherubs but they were molded together to form one image) will be again placed in a new Temple in Jerusalem (Revelation 13:11–18). There will also be a "Mark of the Beast" associated with this new Ark of the Covenant. So, the rebellion to God of replacing the Ark happens at the End Time.

Questions to ask: Will this new Ark of the Covenant (which will be the Image of the Beast mentioned in the Book of Revelation) be the one that Jeremiah buried east of Jericho and across the Jordan River? That is possible. As far as Jeremiah is concerned, he stated that the ideal Temple in the future would NEVER AGAIN have an Ark of the Covenant in it (Jeremiah 3:16). This is the position that I personally take. In fact, God was honest in His statement in Ezekiel that His commands "were not good."

If anyone wants to replace the Ark of the Covenant back into a renewed Temple, what he or she will be doing is placing the Image of the Beast mentioned in Revelation 13 back into the Holy of Holies. While God did allow that to happen in the time of Moses — though remember that God said that command to put those images in the Temple, contrary to the Second Command of the Ten Commandments — it was one of those commands that Ezekiel 20:25–26 said God gave that "were not good." It led them directly (and quickly) right into idolatry of the most serious kind.

I am certain that if the Ark of the Covenant were once again found (or even a new one made by the Temple authorities), it would lead the people back into the kind of idolatry that the early Israelites engaged in, and what the Book of Revelation states this evil world will adopt when the Beast and the False Prophet are on earth.

Ever since I discovered that the Image of the Beast was indeed the reintroduction of the Ark of the Covenant into an End Time Temple (I came to this conclusion well over twenty years ago), I have turned away all my emotional connection with a physical Temple in Jerusalem (or even with a physical Jerusalem) and I now have more important things to be concerned about. True, I plan to give more information on the Temple site as it becomes available, but I have written my book (and with the other articles on our Internet Web Page), I believe I have done my duty to God and to my readers in this matter for the present.

As for me, I have no need for any Ark of the Covenant in my worship. I have only one mediator between the Father and me and that person is Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:4–6). As for Temples that are made by the hands of human beings, I have the express teaching of the Holy Spirit that came from the mouth of Stephen. Stephen boldly told the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem (and quoting teachings directly from the Old Testament): "the Most High dwells not in Temples made with hands [human hands]" (Acts 7:48). I have not the slightest need for a physical Temple (with its Moloch or Chiun — the two Cherubs that Moses placed in the Tabernacle). All I need (and I already have Him) is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Indeed, when one reflects upon the teaching of the Second Commandment of the Ten Commandments (and applies what the words state explicitly and without preconceived notions), it could be argued that even the building of a Temple is prohibited in the strict sense of the word. This is because the Temple represents an image or similitude of the House of God in which God resides in heaven. Do we not read in the Second Commandment that Israelites should not make an image of ANYTHING in heaven (or in earth or under the earth, Exodus 20:4)? That is right! Even the building of a physical Temple on earth is getting close to breaking the Second Commandment. Of course, it must be realized that God did in fact order Moses to construct the Tabernacle and later God told David to have the Temple built by Solomon. Yes, indeed, but still we are later told that God does NOT dwell in Temples made with human hands in an actual sense (Acts 7:48). Whatever the case, we Christians do not need a physical Temple in any manner whatever.

Ernest L. Martin, 2000
Edited by David Sielaff, March 2007

 :cloud9: I don't have any doubt that in their apostosy and rebellion they may have given the cherubim names and worshipped them, just like they did the brazen serpent. 

This is what I see of the originals they mimicked.

Moses--law Word--cold wind--pillar of cloud--bread   [in union with]
Elijah--Spirit Word--hot wind--pillar of fire--wine

-is the true communion that produces the Son in our midst, ie. when two of you are gathered in My name/nature there I AM in the midst of you.

Just as it takes a hot wind meeting a cold wind in the natural to produce a whirlwind (tornado-pillar of cloud), so too does it take both to form the mature Son in us. Note also, that the Father spoke when that pattern was upheld, just as He speaks to us today when we have communion with Him via the Word and the Spirit in union, ie. the bread eaten in the light of the candlestick.

They were told to meet Him in the cloud, and the pillar of fire and cloud over the mercy seat between the two cherubim IS that cloud. This is why at the transfiguration, they saw Moses and Elijah on either side of Him.

To take it a little further, they saw the two trees in the midst of the garden again. The way into the Most Holy was already opened, it was opened before He ever went to the cross.

The two on his right and on his left were joined as one in pattern in the Spirit, and they "covered" the tree of life in their midst. The same pattern is seen in the High Priest's garments, ie. the ehpod (made of the stones representing the 12 tribes = soul of man/female aspect) is the "covering" for the linen (speaks of His righteousness, His Spirit/male aspect of God) robe.

Jeremiah 31:21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest : turn again , O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities. 22 How long wilt thou go about , O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.

The "woman" that shall compass or cover a man is 2 or more "virgin" (cleansed by the blood) souls joined in union of His Spirit, that becomes His covering, ie. the restoration of the High Priest position Adam (and He called THEIR name Adam) had in the garden. This is also why He sent them out in two's.

Every precious stone was Adam's covering, via the ephod stones, until iniquity was found in him. Eve, his stony (calcium is a mineral) heart, sinned. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on December 05, 2010, 07:25:40 PM
:cloud9: @ Molly.....I have a problem on my computer getting pdf files to open. Any chance you could post at least the pertinent excerpts?

Reinstall Acrobat reader. Version X (10) was released a few weeks ago.

http://www.adobe.com/
You have to click to the download yourself because my direct download link likely doesn't work for your PC.
Look for the "Acrobat Reader" right of the 2 photos

 :cloud9: Thanks, I'll try it......what would I do without you as my personal tech support?  :laughing7:  :thumbsup:

In Psalm 82, we are given a glimpse of the divine council, where YHWH is judging the gods and telling them they will die like men.  In other words, he is stripping them of their immortality.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

--Psa 82


"God" [standeth]

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



[in the] "congregation"

H5712
עדה
‛êdâh
ay-daw'
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare H5713.


[of the] "mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."



[he judgeth among]


"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

Molly, I do not see how you conclude that Satan is part of this assembly.  "Satan came also among them" to me does not constitute being one of them.

Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2010, 11:32:09 AM
In Psalm 82, we are given a glimpse of the divine council, where YHWH is judging the gods and telling them they will die like men.  In other words, he is stripping them of their immortality.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

--Psa 82


"God" [standeth]

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.



[in the] "congregation"

H5712
עדה
‛êdâh
ay-daw'
Feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically a concourse, or generally a family or crowd): - assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Compare H5713.


[of the] "mighty"

H410
אל
'êl
ale
Shortened from H352; strength; as adjective mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity): - God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."



[he judgeth among]


"the gods"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


We know from the book of Job that Satan [or the Satan] is part of this assembly.


6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
--Job 1


These gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

Jesus answered them, Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?

John 10:34

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

--John 10

Sure context is important but the context here does not change what Jesus is saying.
It's a mystery, I know, I'm still veiled about it but it shows that your conclusion could be false.

QuoteThese gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

These gods could be men and it could be happening on earth. Not saying it is but it could.

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

"Behold, I have created the smith [that's me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO'S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?


There are no fallen angels in the Bible, especially not the adversary.

Awesome verse!

Quote from: Quaesitor on December 06, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Sure context is important but the context here does not change what Jesus is saying.
It's a mystery, I know, I'm still veiled about it but it shows that your conclusion could be false.

QuoteThese gods are not men, and this assembly is not happening on earth.

These gods could be men and it could be happening on earth. Not saying it is but it could.

Or it could be both in the way that Eze passage is.

Because this is referring to something other than an earthly king of Tyrus:

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

--Eze 28

  "MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn. 8:44).
In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very mists of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He hath purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!
           The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "abode not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of , I keep my standing, or simply I stand, and the form is meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HATH NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him." The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth is not in him." J.B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is liar and the father of lies."
           MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8).
           This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit – it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned.
          Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8
                                                                       W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M  T-H-E  B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G!
Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says – and I believe it does – we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL."
— Eby                                                       

 :boogie:

Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2010, 05:45:08 AM
:boogie:

:happy3:

QuoteHe was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

So who is he?  The 'snake'?  Who is the murderer from the beginning?  And, what beginning are we talking about?  Because we know the elohim already existed when God created the earth.  That would mean that Gen 3 is not the beginning beginning.  It's the beginning of the foundation [in the sense of casting down] of the world.



4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38


"sons of God"

bên 'ĕlôhı̂ym


Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


And why is everyone dancing?

I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2010, 06:36:32 AM
I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

OK lol.

I'm thinking Jesus was talking about the beginning of the age--starting with Gen 3.

Which again, doesn't preclude Satan pre-existing Adam.

Because there was no one to murder in the very beginning.

Satan is the old serpent...evil from the beginning and has nothing to do with angels, elohim, etc.  He is the accuser, murderer, created by God to be evil.  God uses evil for ultimate good.
I believe what fell from heaven was one of the two  cherubim named Moelech....who was also in Eden wasn't he ? guarding the tree of life ?

Molech is a 'god' isn't he?  Solomon is building alters to him and the Israelites are sacrificing their children to him.  That would make him one of the elohim [gods].

The New Testament calls Satan a god.


1 Kings 11:7
Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2010, 06:21:53 AM
[ 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

--Job 38

:cloud9: Did you notice there that the "morning stars" is the same as the meaning for Lucifer? Did a bunch of "Lucifers-Satans" sing together? Overcomers are told they will be given the morning star.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Revelation 22:16 KJV
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Malachi 4:2 KJV
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth , and grow up as calves of the stall.


And in Matt. 13 we are told that the righteous shall shine forth as the SUN (morning star).

Matt. 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When you do a study on Genesis, it literally says the light came out of the hidden light. What is significant about that is, that our spirit is as a shaft or wave of light that came out of the hidden light (Godhead) and to God will it return.

The morning star is the Sun, the greater glory set in the heavens. Just as the Sun arises, so the Son is arising in the hearts of those that are seeking His face, and they will shine as rays of the Sun in the Kingdom of their Father.

Just the fact that 99% of Christendom believes Satan is Lucifer, is reason enough to be a red flag to me, as if the carnal mind can ascertain that at first glance, then there is no need for the Spirit to teach us. My  :2c: Blessings....

The name of the father of Mesba, Chemosh-melek ("Chemosh is Malik" or "Chemosh is king"; compare Moabite Stone, line 1), indicates the possibility that Chemosh and Malik (or Moloch) were one and the same deity. Judges xi. 24 has been thought by some to be a proof of this, since it speaks of Chemosh as the god of the Ammonites, while Moloch is elsewhere their god (compare I Kings xi. 7, 33). Several critics regard the statement in Judges as a mistake; but such an error was not unnatural. since both Chemosh and Moloch were developed, in different environments, from the same primitive divinity, and possessed many of the same epithets.

Solomon is said to have built a sanctuary to Chemosh on the Mount of Olives (I Kings xi. 7, 33), which was maintained till the reform of Josiah (II Kings xxiii. 13). This movement by Solomon was no doubt to some extent a political one, but it made the worship of Chemosh a part of the religious life of Israel for nearly 400 years.

However, according to II Kings xi. 7, evidence is given that Chemosh and Moloch were two different gods or perhaps two manifestations of the same god, at least to the peoples who worshiped them. Solomon had "high places" built for both gods at the same time and in the same location, "on the mountain which is East of Jerusalem." Both Chemosh and Molech may have had the same origins but if so, by Solomon's time they had been denominated into differing objects for different peoples, Chemosh for the Moabites and Moloch for the Ammonites. According to Genesis xix. 30-38, both the Moabites and the Ammonites were descended from the two sons of Lot (themselves half-brothers by his two daughters), Moab and Ben-ammi, which would corroborate the notion that they share a common origin.

--Wikipedia

Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2010, 06:47:30 AM

Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2010, 06:36:32 AM
I did a   :boogie: in the wrong thread  :pointlaugh:, but I'm gonna leave it, because micah liked it!   :bigGrin:

OK lol.

I'm thinking Jesus was talking about the beginning of the age--starting with Gen 3.

Which again, doesn't preclude Satan pre-existing Adam.

Because there was no one to murder in the very beginning.

after the disruption?  (gap theory)

 

QuoteDid you notice there that the "morning stars" is the same as the meaning for Lucifer? Did a bunch of "Lucifers-Satans" sing together? Overcomers are told they will be given the morning star.

It's a different word--two words actually in Job 38.

"morning"

H1242
בּקר
bôqer
bo'-ker
From H1239; properly dawn (as the break of day); generally morning: -  (+) day, early, morning, morrow.


"stars"

H3556
כּוכב
kôkâb
ko-kawb'
Probably from the same as H3522 (in the sense of rolling) or H3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively a prince: - star ([-gazer]).


AND


Lucifer:  a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Transliteration: helel
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')
Short Definition: lucifer


"Lucifer"

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.



But I do see your point.  hmmm

Yet, isn't Satan called an angel of light?

Why wouldn't he be one of the shining ones if he is a god?

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


But--There is one other place where the Latin Lucifer is used and there it does refer to Jesus--the daystar of 2Peter 1:19


19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


Here Lucifer is used to apply to Venus [the day star], as the brightest 'star' in the dawn sky.

PS day star of 2Peter 1:19   and morning star of Rev 22:16 are different Greek words, also.

The morning star of Rev 22:16 looks to me to be the equivalent of the Hebrew morning stars of Job 38.

Whereas the 2Peter daystar [Lucifer] is the word phosphoros:

G5459
φωσφόρος
phōsphoros
foce-for'-os
From G5457 and G5342; light bearing ("phosphorus"), that is, (specifically) the morning star (figuratively): - day star.


But we know Isa 14 is not talking about Jesus.

But Isa. 14 could be talking about adam, the characteristics are close. Also if you read the Lamsa translation which is translated from the Aramaic, Lamsa shows that the word "hêylêl" to be mistranslated and means to "howl." As the CLV has it and removes any thought of this "lucifer." Isa 14:12 How you have fallen from the heavens! Howl, son of the dawn! You are hacked down to the earth, defeater of all nations!"

I personally can not get my thinking even close to any teaching of Lucifer being a fallen angel, since the Bible says nothing at all about "fallen angels," I also firmily contend that if such an incident, that big and important, such as Elohim creating an angel(messenger) from or in the beginning(where ever that bebinning may be) to challenge His (God's) power, would not have been left up to the imaginations of men. 
The adversary is, I contend a spirit, whose persona or personality is able to move about as is its or his or hers purpose; and besides the Gen. 2:17 "...to die shall you be dying." which is not truely a murder.. Murder= H7523 râtsach A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
I dont read until Gen. 4:8 an actual "murder" "...Cain riseth up against Abel his brother, and slayeth him." slew or slayeth H2026 hârag
A primitive root; to smite with deadly intent: - destroy, out of hand, kill, murder (-er), put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), X surely.

These are just my studies and I realize that it goes against the grain of common teaching, I wrestle with this and I consider it more than  :2c: :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on December 07, 2010, 08:02:24 PM
:cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

Interesting.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on December 07, 2010, 08:46:02 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on December 07, 2010, 08:02:24 PM
:cloud9: Interesting also is that the Orthodox Jews do not believe in a fallen angel called Satan. They believe he is an angel that God created and is like the "proscecuting attorney", bringing charges against us, and thereby filling the role of adversary, his job given him by God. They also don't believe he and Lucifer are the same, and find it somewhat amusing that Christendom does.

The more I dig, the more I see what a stumbling block Christendom has been to our brother, the Jews, as so much has been ignored or twisted to fit Christiandom's doctrines. Christiandom is supposed the branch grafted on that is not to exalt themselves against the tree, but they seem to have taken it and run with it, not building on a true foundation. My  :2c: Blessings....

Interesting.   :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

The Jews lost a bit of their belief in Babylon and Egypt. Most Christians don't even see they replaced the actors but left the Roman/Greek script largely unchanged...

True.

The adversary/satan is definitlly a messenger(angel) but I dare say that the adversary fell from no height. The adversary was created for a purpose. The work of the enemy, the adversary was very much in play as man reached Gen.3:1 why you might ask?
It was for the plan. God, in all of Gods wisdom knows(we may not) but He does, that "evil" "the destroyer" an "opponent" some thing that mankind would find "ugly" "distastefull" and would not trust, something man would hate and fear, would be needed to bring about the completion of His creation and work.  I do not believe that the adversary "fell"
from anywhere, the adversary was created for a purpose and His plan, and that plan and purpose is being worked out right now;
doubting that He, God the Lord,
Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

As far as I have come in my readings and studies, no one has ever seen the adversary/satan, no more than anyone has seen God. That has to raise some questions. I know mankind saw the serpent, but mankind aint accepting that as what its all about. Is it?
Also just what would a fallen angel have the resemblance of, a human being, a star, a metor? And then just what did the angel look like before it fell, you know the facial thing ? Again, I know I am persistant and cynical but just where in the Bible have we a recording of a "fallen angel" and should you not find the example of such a fall by an angel, why persist wondering about it?

I heard a story today:

A certain woman was visiting a friend at her home.
The friend was preparing to bake a ham.
Doing so, she cut off a small piece from both ends and placed them in the pan with the large piece.
Her friend asked her why she cuts off the ends when she makes a ham and was answered with:
" I don't know, that's the way my mom always makes it, I guess that makes it better"
So, she decides to call her mother on the phone and ask why.
Her mother answers, " I don't know, that's the way my mom always makes it."
lol
So they call grandma and ask her
and grandma says:
"Well, a large ham would never fit in my roasting pan, so I just trim off the ends."



This fallen angel story is just tradition passed on to the next generation who never questions why.

Heard that story and it fits this subject like a glove. Thanks! :thumbsup:

Through Christ we worship the Father
It has always been, there is no other way
In Him we have our life
In Him we move
In Him we have our being
There is the Saviour
Strong, the Conqueror, powerful, fearless
Meek, gentle, selfless
Christ Jesus
The Real that is the only Real

Distinguish it from the unreal
The shadow, the false, the thoughts of betrayal
Beware the spirit that catches off guard
False anger, jealousy quick and slow,
Limitation, sickness, death,
Deceiving mind and senses
These come as an angel of light to falsify the good

   what I know of satan is that it is a mere tool...that will disappear....when all the hewing and sawing are accomplished on His living stones

  and tree's of righteousness...there shall be no sound of a tool when the assembling of the house/spiritual temple is brought togather.

   I will not alway accuse/find fault...for then even the spirit would fail.

I believe Satan was created just the way he is to do the job he's doing. That's why his name means Adversary. I also believe he will be included in all of God's creatures who will be reconciled to God and in whom God will be all in all. If you have any doubt that God controls Satan, just read the book of Job.

"You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil004.html

God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

Quote from: marie glen on April 22, 2015, 06:22:34 AM
God is absolutely in full control. He foreknows aLL things.

Although, I do not believe YHVH controls every decision of every created being, nor believe all of this - human history and its many horrors - is all God's doing.. the horrors of history, His choices, I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. (Speed along this unavoidable journey/lesson, that is. Unavoidable if there is to be rational creatures in heaven and earth.)

Yes, I believe God knew and foreknew all ppl and the lives they would lead. But I do not believe He created Hitler to be Hitler.. to let limited choice occur, and run, exhibits more perfection, more control over all things, than designing an ant farm - This bitter pill life utterly proves that wandering from God and/or differing from His will in thought, word or deed, will not and cannot ever, ever, work, for the wages of sin (imperfection as opposed to His perfection) is death/to perish. W/o His intervention / Great Plan of Salvation all would perish. He iS life. Who/What else could, would be? "In the beginning God.." To disagree with Him in any tiny way is to be imperfect, the opposite of life. the lesson of this life (imo) and human history in a nutshell.

As we know, Jesus said - (Luke 10:18, Young's Literal Translation/YLT) "and he said to them, `I was beholding the Adversary, as lightning from the heaven having fallen"

Concordant Version - "Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

I've always felt the verse in Psalms (41:9) which prophesied about Jesus and His betrayal by Judas - "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me" refers also to Satan.. that he had a name change after his changed nature, like from Saul to Paul, or Abram, to Abraham, or Jacob to Israel, doesn't seem strange to me..

Acts 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison:

2 Corinthians 11:13, 14 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
- Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14 and no wonder -- for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light;

from Rev 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars.. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.."

from Rev 12 "..there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth.. and "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." (Here cast out, after a battle in heaven; not falls/fallen)

I'm not sure why Lucifer seems to be an alternate name for the king of Babylon to some thinkers.. Bible prophecy often telescopes..
....(Was the King of Tyre really in the Garden of Eden? - from Ezek 28:12-15 "Son of man, lift up a lamentation for the king of Tyre.. Full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.. In Eden, the garden of God, thou hast been, Every precious stone thy covering, Ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle, and gold.. In the midst of stones of fire thou hast walked up and down. Perfect [art] thou in thy ways, From the day of thy being produced, Till perversity hath been found in thee.." Surely the king of Tyre was never perfect..

Isaiah 14:12, Young's Literal Translation (YLT) - "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

.."which deceiveth the whole world.."

.."the tempter came and said to Him.." (Mt 4:?) "God tempts no man.."
     :2c: :Peace2: :smile:

Would you please explain this statement?
" I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. " Thanks

Quote from: micah7:9 on April 22, 2015, 04:29:10 PM

Would you please explain this statement?
" I do believe however, He patiently waited, ever so patient, for the adversary's rebellion to fully mature before creating the universe and man and woman, in order to speed things along. " Thanks

hi Micah,

..17 years ago when my son was 16 he asked me 2 questions, which i (believe i) received some answers in response to heartfelt prayers to understand better answers when i was not satisfied with my answers to him - even tho i had long been a solid believer, pretty much U.R. and never did believe the `hell` doctrine,

..his questions were - why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?
and, isn't it great we get to be an ant farm..? (some troubles at school that year:)

the answers which came back at me during prayer gave me a more total view of God's plan and what i think of as His purpose..

what came back to me was a series:

- that God is life itself ("In the beginning God.." hence, who/what else would/could be the spark of life, the life force itself, all life)

- that He is also (of course:) perfect. Utterly perfect.. of course! :HeartThrob:

- but even before those two, was an image came to mind having to do with God knowing (of course) all things and all possibilities, before ever starting a work of creation. It was like He could see all possibilities stretched out before His 'eyes' like a 360 degree blanket stretched out into 'space' in all directions (was how it came to mind)

- He, being perfect, has chosen all things and done all things exactly as He has, in order to bring about, in creation, the best of all possibilities.

- when He endowed thinking ability (to angel and man) a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be'; why? because with thinking ability, sooner or later, comes the ability to make choices. (Albeit, of course, and thank-fully, very limited!)

- and God, only able to be honest, there was that tree in the midst of the original garden - besides, what was God's other choice? no rational creatures ever?

- hence suffering, life as we presently know it, and death, came to be.. for imperfection came to be..

- the last thing which came to me during this time of prayer was a two part question, which was, why did God wait "such a very long time, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only after the first rebel thought had occurred, but after it had matured into outright sedition and revolt? ..Didn't He know what would happen?" ! :laughing7: Well of course He did! :o With the "waited such a long time" came the 'vision' of `when there was 'only' the Father, the Son (the Spirit of Life) and the angels, surely there wasn't all that much to 'go astray' about` ..so took some 'time' ..showing the infinite patience of the Father..

- besides this, the paradox i felt i was shown, is how rationality is a Pandora's box because as soon as one chooses any tiny difference from what God chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life. So God built the rescue in from the foundation/beginning.. (and it surely makes no sense at all that God would punish and even torture, for ever, ppl or angels for He was the one Who opened, with clear intent, of course, that Pandora's box.

- and the thing is too, because He is perfect (or He too would fade?) the 'end' result of all this can only be the absolutely best one possible.

- and one of the things i liked best about all this? because He is life, He suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings, horrors, and indignations which ever occur. Why. Would He put Himself through all that? Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm, or robots, but His own family (of many beautiful branches) and an un-breakable paradise/perfection. Un-breakable because all will fully understand good from evil, which is also life from death(nonlife). And also fully know that one simply cannot wander away from God's Will, for to do so can only ever end in a puff (or wisp) of self destructive smoke..
Peace! :Peace2: Sorry i couldn't keep it shorter winded!