if Jesus paid for all sin, then why a hell at all?

[shawn]

If I sin I pay consequences for that sin.  Just because Jesus saved us from death doesn't mean he saved us from some of the temporal consequences of sin.  Those consequences purify us. 

Think of it this way.  A good father would never allow his children to be free from the consequences of bad behavior.  Why?  That is a form of abuse.  You are stealing teaching moments from your child to calm your own cognitive dissonance.   A good father allows his children to experience a certain amount of pain so they may learn. 

Very well put. The consequences teach us valuable lessons. They are not punitive, but corrective.

Amen.

[reFORMer]

Jer 2:19     "Thine own wickedness 7451 shall correct 3256 thee, and thy backslidings 4878 shall reprove 3198 thee..."

[micah7:9]

willieH: Hi Chris... :hithere:

Hi Willie,

I have to re-read your post again, but I just wanted to point out that I was not calling "the eighth day" the "another day" which was spoken of with regard to THE SABBATH, as it called "TODAY" and I see that in relation to when we hear His voice and harden not our hearts and enter into HIS REST - through BELIEF.

In speaking to the "thief"... He was just notifying "today" that the thief WOULD BE with Him IN PARADISE... it absolutely did NOT occur on the "today" of His crucifixtion for He was to spend 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS fulfilling the SIGN of the Prophet Jonah.

I disagree. That would be extremely inconsistent with the way that Jesus spoke in every other instance recorded in the NT where He said: "Verily, I say unto thee, [fill in the appropriate blank]".

You are welcome to this perception sis, it is however not really conclusive.  JESUS did not say that everytime He spoke the word "verily" which means "truly", that in that moment would the TRUTH of which He spoke, immediately be manifest in TIME.

I won't get into great detail at this time, but there are many instances of the use of the word VERILY that did not equate to an IMMEDIATE manifestation... Here are a few:

Matt 5:18 -- the LAW had yet to be fulfilled, even though (it was TRUE that) when it WOULD BE fulfilled --- not 1 jot or tittle would be passed from it...

Matt 8:10 -- even though (it was TRUE to this point in time) that He had not seen such faith in Israel, did not mean He would NEVER see it manifest in ISRAEL...

I don't wish to spend too much time splitting hairs (or teeth)  :Sparkletooth: with the word "VERILY"...  You are welcome to believe what you wish...  :cloud9:

Jesus words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE and the truth is:

TODAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE!  :thumbsup:

FIRST -- I disagree...  :happygrin:

SECOND -- this is only PART of what He said...  And JESUS said unto him... "verily I say unto you TODAY... thou shalt be with Me in paradise"

In the original language this was written in,  PUNCTUATIONS did not exist.  Neither did chapter or verse designations... This did not mean that DIALOGUE that CHRIST spoke, did not have PUNCTUATION within it...

That there is an absent COMMA which would bring REASON to this statement, is IMO a given. (you are welcome to disagree, doesn't matter to me)

As I see it, ...It is UNREASONABLE for the SCRIPTURES to say that CHRIST DIED (BTW... the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING -- Ecc 9:5)... as well as noting in several places such as -- AFTER 3 Days (or on the 3rd day) He would RISE from DEATH --- and then "a breath later" maintain that He entered PARADISE upon the moment of His DEATH, taking the THIEF to the promise that has been denied such as Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, Jacob, etc [Heb 11 entire chapter]... This is contradictory.  

Either the witness in Scripture is truth... or it is not... The Scripture says HE TASTED DEATH for every man -- Heb 2:9 -- which means that He had to DIE as did any other man... many of which are listed as STILL DEAD later in Heb 11:13...

There are NO WITNESSES in the WORD which note Him as LIVING during the period of the 3 days that SCRIPTURE says He would be DEAD, and after those 3 days, RISE again...

Please name one.  Anything can be assumed by misunderstanding of Scripture elsewhere but please name ONE TESTIMONY of Him as ALIVE during these 3 days...

If you can come up with one, then the burden of explanation of that text is upon me... Until you prove otherwise sis, ...I just do not believe such a verse is in there...  :mnah:

Why? Because TODAY (when we hear His voice and harden not out hearts) is THE DAY OF THE LORD.

It is the "DAY" of YHVH... Not the day of the MAN, ...JESUS CHRIST... the MAN, JESUS CHRIST, died and was DEAD "in time" (completely inanimate and inactive) for 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS -- OF TIME... Matt 12:40 -- If CHRIST actually was NOT IN the TOMB AS was Jonah IN the belly of the "whale"... then this Scripture is (as are several others) a false witness.

CHRIST the man was NOT GOD... the WORD which permeated Him... was and IS.

The WORD cannot DIE and still be called UNCHANGING for if the WORD is indeed ALIVE (which it IS)... Then it is ALWAYS ALIVE...  CHRIST the MAN, DIED... the WORD which is YHVH GOD... remained ALIVE, and removed itself from Him before He DIED, ...SO... that He could DIE...

The WORD is that which is emergent from the HEART of YHVH God... it is the POWER of YHVH... it is NOT a separate "person" from Him... it is the PROJECTION of Himself (being silent and invisible) in "audible and visible" terms... it was ANIMATED and MADE observeable -- via the MAN, JESUS CHRIST...

The MAN, JESUS CHRIST -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- is the ONLY SON which did NOT do other than the WILL of the WORD within Him -- John 5:19 --

ALL other men, OPPOSE the "COMMAND/WILL" of YHVH, even though they are emergent FROM YHVH -- John 1:3 -- and that LIGHT/Will,  IS within them -- John 1:9

Christ FIRST DESCENDED before He ASCENDED and, spiritually speaking, Christ "first descended" (into the lowest parts of the earth) when the Word was MADE FLESH, not when he was crucified on the cross 33 years later.  And His earthly ministry was not over until He ASCENDED 40 days after His resurrection.

"Ascended"?   ...from WHERE, Chris?  You have maintained that He was ALREADY in PARADISE on the Day of His death! (with the "thief") :dontknow:

Also, even though resurrected, He had NOT ASCENDED to the Father, until after speaking with Mary, for He so noted this...

Are you claiming that Christ's blood had NOT YET been sprinkled on the mercy seat of God IN HEAVEN? Even THREE DAYS AFTER his blood was shed?

TIME is not necessary (3 "days" which requires "72 hrs" of time to elapse) in the TRUE understanding of this Chris.  

The WORD is ETERNAL... CHRIST was slain, before the WORLD began... the "BLOOD" was not placed upon the "mercy seat" on the DAY of the crucifixtion, ...IT was, is and always will be upon the mercy seat of YHVH... this ETERNAL UNCHANGING fact, ...did not (does not, will not) "need" manifestation of PHYSICAL things within TIME, in order to BE.

HOWEVER... the ORDINATIONS from ETERNITY which ALREADY always, ARE, ...occur as an ordered procession DECLARED by YHVH within the passing of CREATED TIME... GOD proclaimed the END from the BEGINNING... which includes ALL EVENTS and ALL MOMENTS in between those 2 points.  

But He has established those 2 points, to REVEAL the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... one of which was the MOMENT CHRIST ...died... and REMAINED for the entirety of 3 COMPLETE days in time, which He spent INANIMATE as part of this realm --- within the TOMB...

It is the GLORY of GOD to recognize that HE does not require ANY works of MAN, within EVERY moment of man's history... to BE ...IN... those moments.  

GOD is "AS" -- "IN" yesterday as He is "IN" today, and as He already is, "IN" tomorrow...

As well as recognizing the fact that the "UNIQUE and MOVING procession of TIME", is ordained and emergent from HIM as the ISOLATED realm where is found the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... contained within HIS HEART where LIVES, ...HIS WORD...

I think you are misunderstanding what Christ meant, as Christ did not ASCEND until He was received INTO A CLOUD 40 days after His resurrection.

I think it is you which are misunderstanding, dear one...

Wait a minute or 3!  :umnick:  ...I thought you believe that He "ascended" to PARADISE with the THIEF, on crucifixtion day?  :dunno:

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was calling THE EIGHTH/FIRST DAY the SABBATH. Not at all.

You didn't sis... I was just detailing that the SABBATH is something that shall NEVER CHANGE... for it is part of a LAW, as written in the WORD, which is UNCHANGING.

The SABBATH in all aspects that it is... The COMPLETION of the "week", the COMPLETION of "salvation", the COMPLETION that is CHRIST, the COMPLETION that COMPLETES all things... is that which IS the SABBATH...

Just as UR is contained in the word chURch... the ABBA [alpha & omega] is contained in the word sABBAth -- I know these are English words... but there are NO COINCIDENCES concerning GOD...

Which has nothing to do with a physical rest entered into physically on a physical day, if we are talking spiritual truths and not the 'types' which merely pointed to them. No?

FIRST --- the "SABBATH" is the "DAY" of YHVH... which ALWAYS ...IS... it is the COMPLETION [perfection] of DAYS... it is the REST which is found in ALL things that REST in Him...  That it is shown to be the CULMINATION of the working of MAN, only notes that all WORK of man (6 days) (men = EXTENSIONS of YHVH), ...is/are found CONCLUDED in it.

SECOND --- It is a weekly picture or notation in TIME, of the journey ALL things take... each "beginning" by EMERGING from YHVH, and each concluding by ENDING in YHVH...

The ALPHA and OMEGA... the END... IS... the BEGINNING... and the BEGINNING... IS the END -- Rev 1:8 -- I AM [present tense] the ALPHA and OMEGA... the beginning and the end...

Here is the ETERNAL equation, Chris:  

:nod: The BEGINNING is the END = <<YHVH>> = The END is the BEGINNING :nod:

<<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<A=O>>>>>>>>>>

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Glory!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[PaoloNuevo]

I am quite convinced that the lake of fire is either:

1. our experiences in this life

Or:

2. a classroom after the resurrection where all will be revealed, and many will feel great shame.  Now this may take eons, but it will only take as long as necessary for each person to realize what they had done and to realize that they need God's love.  It will be far more purposeful than simply torturing a person in literal fire for a million years.

Peace out. 

Oh my!! I never heard it said this way before!! Yes, this makes sense! Even God detests people burning their babies (Jeremiah 32: 35) why would He use His benign fires to barbecue the ressurection bodies of his lost children??

I've always thought that the "fire and brimstone" carried a deeper, more spiritual meaning... Plus, in Revelation 22 the wicked aren't suffering at all, after they've been tossed into the LOF, they are now simply outside the city... Ready to be evangelized and ready to confess?  :thumbsup:

[Daniel33]

One question regarding the purification process or lake of fire, let's say hypothetically you at the day of your death have trangressed to live a life without sin, are you still punished for your past sins, or is the earthly purification that has taken place enough?

[thinktank]

According to Paul, if you are in Christ, then a we shall all be changed in a twinklling of an eye, this corruption shall put on incorruption. The blood cleanses us from all sin, so theres no need to be into the lake of fire.

[jabcat]

Hi Daniel.  I believe as God said through Paul, we're saved by grace through faith, and that not of  ourselves.

I currently believe there are at least 2 different judgments;  One having to do with whether one is "saved" as yet, the other having to do with works.

If not yet saved, conditions put in place where one will repent and kneel and confess Jesus as Lord.

If already saved, works judged, things "burned" out that are not of God - having to do with obedience, rewards, etc.   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Oh my!! I never heard it said this way before!!

Oh you!!
You may like THIS thread.

[marie glen]

"hell" is a mistranslation, misunderstanding which should simply read "the grave". God is life itself, of course, and also perfection (of course :Sparkletooth:) so when God chose to create thinking beings rather than robots or an ant farm a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities 'came to be' just as God of course knew would, but he (surely) chose to do all things perfectly in order to bring about the moSt perfect of all possibilities, which of course is not robots.. yet when thinking ability/ability to choose chooses anything other than what God chooses, they become imperfect, the opposite of life, which now is thought to be but another form of life.
- But nonchristians can quickly grab the concept of thinking abilility vs being robots, and Jesus saves us from "the grave" (death, nonlife) and imperfection its cause but christians have a hard time with it... "truth is simple but man has made many inventions" the preacher/ecclesiastes..

[WhiteWings]

Marie Glen, makes one wonder about paganity....


Why was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?

Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.

Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.

Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.

Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.

The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.




Ragnarok is huge end time battle. Only a few survive. The old world dies and a new one world starts.
Sounds a bit familiar  :scratchhead: [/font][/size]

[marie glen]

That was very interesting! I read some time ago that "hel" also meant to bury something, like let's hel the potatoes.. Do you think it's true most paganism has Babylonian roots, its different branches spreading out to all lands from the tower of babel?

[WhiteWings]

Let's hel potatoes is still used by some very old farmers.
I've looked for a 1500-something dictionary to look up the word. Found nothing. (no dictionary)

[reFORMer]

Oxford Dictionary has first occurences and history of early usage.  It's mostly being published online now I think.  I just don't use it enough to justify even the low per month charge.  I'd get "Hearts of Space" first.  I may anyway...

[WhiteWings]

What MG wrote is a fact I can verify first hand. The big question is: Did the farmers start using hell for potatoes because they heared a sermon? Or did church use the word because it simply was a very good translation for unseen and was widely in use by farmers. Not unlikely they got the world from Norse mytholgy.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Like your new avatar  :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

[PaoloNuevo]

Hahhaha I love that fencing smiley thinktank!

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Like your new avatar  :thumbsup:

Enjoy it while you can because you surely know I have to remove it tomorrow for almost a year.
You may choose what teh next one is gonna be. Hand or tree.

[WhiteWings]

Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

[thinktank]

Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

I'l shoot once and guess, is it Indiana Jones raiders of the lost ark?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

classic scene  :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry http://www.iviewtube.com/v/37677/dirty-harry-clint-eastwood-(do-you-feel-lucky-punk)-

[legoman]

Yeah it reminds me of samurai warrior.

Take this whitewings
Ha YAHHHHH

:swordfight:


You fight well my young apprentice, but with my help you could be the best

Make me think of a movie. A man was attacked by someone that looked like a highly trained martial art expert. Very relaxed he pulled out his gun and gone was the guy with the samurai swords :winkgrin:

"I hear you think; did he fire five or six times? Do you feel lucky today, punk?"  :laughing7:

I'l shoot once and guess, is it Indiana Jones raiders of the lost ark?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

classic scene  :bigGrin:

That's what I was thinking of too.  Yes that is a classic  :bigGrin: