Misogyny in the old testament.

[Hennessey]

I stumbled across this precious poem and thought how perfect for this thread.

      Blessed is he whose faith is not offended,
      When all around his way
      The power of God is working out deliverance
      For others day by day;

      Though in some prison drear his own soul languish,
      Till life itself be spent,
      Yet still can trust his Father's love and purpose,
      And rest therein content.

      Blessed is he, who through long years of suffering,
      Cut off from active toil,
      Still shares by prayer and praise the work of others,
      And thus "divides the spoil."

      Blessed are thou, O child of God, who sufferest,
      And canst not understand
      The reason for thy pain, yet gladly leavest
      Thy life in His blest Hand.

      Yea, blessed art thou whose faith is "not offended"
      By trials unexplained,
      By mysteries unsolved, past understanding,
      Until the goal is gained.

                                    Freda Hanbury Allen


how unexplainable His love that dwells within us
make you want to cry doesn't it ........

[Dean]

Jack,

Awesome Posts.... :thumbsup:

Dean

[Hennessey]

Bless you Dean. You will always be one of the precious ones to Joian and myself. Even get tears to typing this ......

[firstborn888]

but yet I found peace from all regret in knowing even my sins were fore-ordained that I might see my total futility and my overwhelming need for a Saviour and Lord to walk in me.

The OT shows the futility of the flesh, anger, revenge etc. The NT shows the absolute power and perfection of the Spirit, peace, forgiveness etc.

The OT shows the nature of fallen man. The NT shows the nature of perfect God.

God ordained all of it to occur - the good the bad the ugly.

He enables the opposite of His nature to exist within time.

<< 2 Corinthians 4:17 >>
"For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"

<< 1 Peter 1:24 >>
For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF"

Rightly dividing what's happening, why, and to whom is the key here.

<< 1 Corinthians 15:49 >>
"Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly".

Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy. :mshock:

  - b

P.S. You people are the most amazing people I've ever encountered
:Sparkletooth:

[AbbasChild]

Hi Kept, glad the writing blessed you. I can't really remember how I actually found the website, but it was years ago. Also talked to the guy via e-mail because there were some things I didn't agree with. However, for me it was the same thing with the 'elohim' issue. Father showed that to me at the beginning of my walk but I forgot about it after going through all the denominations. So when I read this article I rememberd.

[AbbasChild]

One thing I would like to point out is that still- even though the law was given to frustrate us in our legal perception of life- Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law prophetically (not legaly, for man was never intended to live in this kind of mindset). So just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted to lead to ultimate Good (our Father being All in All) so the law was given through the ministration of angels for the same goal. Without all its bondages and all the cruelty- that I believe did not
come directly from Him Who is called only Good- we would never know the freedom we experience now in Jesus Christ.

Because I see Father as Holy Soverign Unfailing Love I don't  really see a contradiction between His Soverignty and His Goodness. While I would agree with Jack that even our sins are forordained (that's why the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world) they are still our sins. That's the same with angelic beings for me. When Paul talks about nothing being able to seperate us from the Love of our Father as it is revealed in Jesus Christ I can see all this things he mentions as coming from His hands and Him being responsible for their actions and very existence on one level, but on another level its also important to say that this things don't come forth from His nature that is only Light and Goodness.

Rather they are evil because they have been brought forth out of His Light to return there again, in the meantime going through the experience of knowing good and evil (the lack or perversion of Goodness). Even the god of this worldsystem and his deceptive ways in the end play into Father's purpose just as the law- ordained by angels- with all its cruelty and brutality did. But in the end its only the Son Who knows the Father and reveals His true character which is Good and only Good.

[Hennessey]

While I would agree with Jack that even our sins are forordained (that's why the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world) they are still our sins.

Floyd I see our sins belonging to the old man that is blind to his condition. Only by the sovereign action of the Spirit shining it's light upon our soul do we ever see the darkness. The soul cannot see itself nor it's condition ..... this I know. We can see the path of our past destruction/sowing and reaping but that is not a place to dwell as we must always have our eyes upon Him to ascend.

Dwelling on sin does not rid it ........ only with our vision of Him does it fall off.

Self introspection is the biggest crock out there and amounts to rose colored glasses in a pitch black room.

Just thought I would clarify the point I made and how I see it working.

Be blessed,

Jack

[AbbasChild]

Hi Jack, I completley agree with you on that one. I find this a bit of a hard topic to be honest because so many mysteries are involved and our human language is very often inadequate to express them. Its totaly wrong of course to focus on our sins instead on Him. Also didn't mean it to look like I contradicted you. Sometimes when one gets into the whole Soverignty issue some (not you) express themselves in a way that could one almost make thinking that it is Christ in us doing the evil stuff. No one is actually saying that of course and I found what you wrote in the last post a much better explanation than what I had to say.

Praise God that we don't have this discussions in german cause than it would get really complicated. Did you know that the german langage enables you to write one sentence over four pages of a book without making a full stop? And the sentence still makes sense (if one has the braincapacity). That actually happend with the german philosopher Hegel. To much carnal mind if you ask me.  :icon_jokercolor:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Byron said, "Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy." Would you mind elaborating on that, B.? Blessings to you........

[Dean]

 :2c:

That God intended that imperfect humans...would treat other humans, inhumanly... IS evident...because it HAPPENS.

That humans ...even the "chosen" humans would blame God for their sick and inhuman acts towards other humans...IS evidenced...because it also HAPPENS.

I get to discover that which is in agreement with LOVE [God] within me...and that which is in agreement with FEAR.... the BEAST [carnal mind] within me.

The Jews stealing other peoples homes and killing their men, women and children is only understood to be acts of HUMANS treating other humans...HUMANLY...within a RELIGIOUS context. For me...I had to jump through hoops of denial and dishonesty to agree with this. To embrace this...I had to dismiss my understanding of the God who I have met and who is LOVE... 

This is just my story...

Dean

[reFORMer]

The part of the story that gets left out is the reason why God condemned the original inhabitants of the land; and, that later on, when His own turned against Him, doing the same things and even worse, He removed them as well.

What they were doing that was so bad was funereal/fertility celebrations where the whole family had sex with each other, grandma's corpse and animals, usually dogs, maybe goats included.  There were blood sacrifices, often their own children slain, all to worship their gods.  Because of the resultant deeply ingrained mental problems and actual diseases, they were all to be removed from God's sight.  He also didn't want His people to be defiled by such abominations.  By leaving some of the original inhabitants of the land they later learned to to the same things, even worse, leading to their own destruction and removal.  Their Asherim groves were groups of poles that were phallic symbols to goddess/fertility worship that surrounded the altars for human sacrifice.  The remains of these sacrifices were mixed into the mortar used for entryways and foundations in their houses.  The worship of Baal became so popular that God had reserved to himself but 7000 men (and their families) out of all the land in the days of Elijah.  All the rest had "kissed the calf," which involved a male temple prostitute devoted to Baal wearing a Calf's head suit on his upper body. The Jews and Israelites even attributed burning their firstborn children to God

I'm quoting the excerpt above to ask if your next door neighbors on the left were in with a cult in town who practiced what is described what would you want done about it?  When subsequently the vacant house on the right side of yours was sold to members of the same cult would you be letting your couple of children play with the more than half dozen of these cultic neighbors's kids?  Realize this was before Jesus was manifested.  Many people into sexual perversions today are extremely antagonistic to even hearing mentioned they can be saved.  They've managed to make it "hate speech," punished by years in prison and fines.  This is with abundant testimonials of the grace of God manifestly delivering many from homosexual lifestyles.  Though such sinful behavior is but a very watered down pale echo of the Canaanites, they're doing what they can step by step to see to it Christians are eliminated from society, at least as far as this issue is concerned.   Don't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

[Cindi]

......if your next door neighbors on the left were in with a cult in town who practiced what is described what would you want done about it?  When subsequently the vacant house on the right side of yours was sold to members of the same cult would you be letting your couple of children play with the more than half dozen of these cultic neighbors's kids?

Probably not....but neither would I want to see them run through with a sword...including the kids and watch their houses burned to the ground.

Don't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

I think the attitude of many Christians against gays and those involved in "sexual perversion" is not anything near a live and let live policy either and is a watered down version of the Phelps clan...and their Westboro Baptist Church.  Granted they are an extreme and sickening case...but aren't they really just preaching a doctrine many Christians really believe...including the belief of many that gays go to hell simply by virtue of being gay? 

Many people into sexual perversions today are extremely antagonistic to even hearing mentioned they can be saved.

Perhaps because they hear the subtle (yet unmistakable) voice of Shirley Phelps behind the message...which is most definitely not live and let live. 

Cindi....

[Dean]

I get that the WAR is within each of us...and not what Religion teaches...that it is always US against THEM. I think the mental health jargon calls that ...paranoia.

I consider your example to be...very extreme...is it an attempt to dehumanize these broken people... in order to justify unGodly acts towards them?

Perhaps an equaly IMO...extreme response, would be for me to teach my children to kill their BAD neighbors... including the children and to take their homes as our own...and to tell them that God had told us to do just that...cause they were real BAD.

In Religion...   BAD people = FREE houses...how cool is that.

Is it the goodness of God that leads men to repentance or killing them all? I'm leaning towards the goodness side on this deal.

Dean

[reFORMer]

(How far away from misogyny are we on this thread?  I seem to be on a defense of the Hebrew Scripture as being of the real God.)

Part of our problem is the bit about the Canaanites was in a made for TV movie last week, or spread across several movies in the last few years, or something like that.  So altered by our surrounding culture, it's nigh unto impossible to get God's system of values when we refuse His word.  There is moral law that is as sure as the law of gravity.  We don't go around pinning up proclamations for rocks to fall.  That isn't what makes gravity work.  Use the law against stealing for an example.  No jail.  No hindrance of fruitfulness or restitution like cutting off hands.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  Reap what you sow.  Do you realize this works even if there's no man to enforce it?  This type of knowledge can help you understand what is going on in your life if your keep loosing things by whatever means and how to amend it.  The way of the thief is not the path of blessing which ultimately is to enjoy the continual presences of God.  The influence in the writings He gave us is to walk with God.

What is state law for thieves, or the kind of things the Canaanites were into, is not the same as an individual claiming God is telling him to enforce questionable sanctions on others, even if they woodenly seemed to synchronize with parts of the Torah.  This seems part of my readers misunderstanding of my several posts in defense of Hebrew Scripture.  It could take several lifetimes to influence culture to the extent that the system of values in God's law could become state law; but, if anyone proposes to influence society for Christ, He has already given us writings that point out the right direction to pursue.

When people walk with God they are under no law.  We can't say we don't know what the answer is.  "The law is for the lawless" is God's very relevant word considering the 20th Century was the darkest yet.  135 million killed in peace time by their friends and neighbors, in addition to all those killed in the wars as well as the intentionally produced famines.  I just heard Heidi Baker say God told her, "My son died so no one would ever again not have enough to eat."  I believe it!  What's the problem?  Why are you not enjoying a long life as, "days of heaven on earth," (Dt 11:21) as God promised?  It is because you do not meet the conditions for that blessing that is His to bestow.

Intimacy with God puts in us a heart of tender pity for those trapped in destructrive lifestyles with an understanding of what's wrong and the way out.  There is a false love that claims no one should ever be disciplined, that the wicked should have equal blessing and authority with the righteous, and in fact, that wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  That's the path to reprobation.  To suffer if need be for obeying the truth is the other path, wherein nothing matters but love for God and one another.  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;" but, "Mature love casts out all fear."

---James

[Kratos]

Good word.

[firstborn888]

Don't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

This is involvment from Christ's perspective.

  blessings,
   Byron

[jfraysse]

Hey Kept!  John Fraysse here... Hope you and your family are doing well!  :HeartThrob:

IMHO, All Bibles need Warning Labels, for the Biblical God created evil and allows or commands, rape, genocide, abortion, child abuse, birth defects, slavery, murder, the subjugation of women and promotes bigotry and hate crimes against homosexuals and those of other "faiths" or religious views. 

I fear that Religious Fascism is on the rise throughout the world. Good thing the founding fathers had the good sense to separate Church and State in America! 

Grace & Peace, John

[Cindi]

Intimacy with God puts in us a heart of tender pity for those trapped in destructrive lifestyles with an understanding of what's wrong and the way out.  There is a false love that claims no one should ever be disciplined, that the wicked should have equal blessing and authority with the righteous, and in fact, that wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  That's the path to reprobation.  To suffer if need be for obeying the truth is the other path, wherein nothing matters but love for God and one another.  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;" but, "Mature love casts out all fear."

To me...the atrocities in the OT....and crediting them to the heart of God is an example of claiming wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  The Holy Spirit will lead us...all of us....wicked and righteous alike into all truth.  And isn't it his job to convict of sin?

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment."

As much as I can I try not to judge others...the log in the eye principle...judge not lest you be judged.....and rather try to follow the example set by Jesus...and to follow his directive in the verse Byron posted.....

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

By NO means do I have it down and I sometimes find my vision impared by the log in my own eye.  We see things very differently. I have no doubt that even if my path is off course, he has the where with all to right it.

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

[Cindi]

Don't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

This is involvment from Christ's perspective.

  blessings,
   Byron

Hi Byron...is that you in the avatar???

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

[firstborn888]

Hi Byron...is that you in the avatar???

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice

Yep Cindi - that's my shiny bald head. The other day at 'church' a man had this one year old baby on his shoulders who was just learning to talk - the little guy started pointing down at my head and saying "Light! Light!" :mshock:  :laughing7:
- b

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Out of the mouths of babes......my bet is that was not just natural light the little one was seeing...... :thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

:cloud9: Byron said, "Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy." Would you mind elaborating on that, B.? Blessings to you........

Even as they were "unspeakable words" in so much as Paul did not even attempt to explain what he saw and heard - I'm more inclined to think that he 'couldn't' rather that 'shouldn't. Couldn't - because as Jesus said "you cannot bear them now" (too heavy). The fact that we're here asking/wondering with this intensity tells me it's not too far away. Until we have enough character foundation to 'bear' the weight of what is said, and rightly divide what is said, we won't be told.

Have you ever had a thought so deep that you fell into it?

The next step will take us into into a train of thought that trancends anything we've ever thought about anything.

In Him we live and move and have our being (Paul said this to pagans).

  blessings,
  - byron

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I totally agree with that; until the foundation is there, you won't be told, because the weight of it would destroy instead of build up. That's why He said He would not put more upon us than what we could bear. I used to say only half-jokingly, "Lord, someone has LIED to you, because I'M not that strong!" Blessings to you....... :thumbsup:

[Kept]

Hey Kept!  John Fraysse here... Hope you and your family are doing well!  :HeartThrob:

IMHO, All Bibles need Warning Labels, for the Biblical God created evil and allows or commands, rape, genocide, abortion, child abuse, birth defects, slavery, murder, the subjugation of women and promotes bigotry and hate crimes against homosexuals and those of other "faiths" or religious views. 

I fear that Religious Fascism is on the rise throughout the world. Good thing the founding fathers had the good sense to separate Church and State in America! 

Grace & Peace, John

Hi John

Yep in the hands of the carnal minded fundamentalist the bible is a very dangerous book imo
Just check out the Godhatesfags.com website to see how dangerous it is wow

but in the hands of the spiritually minded that has set their minds on things above it can spring forth life within even from the parts that we would deem the unlovely parts
The body has those unlovely parts that are deemed less honorable and the bible does too.

kept

[jfraysse]

Hi Kept:  Man, that site is VILE!  I, like you, am weary of ignoring the "Evil Bible" verses, I fact, I can no longer do it.  How are you coming with your atheist/agnostic friends.  I find that I have much in common with them.  Many have been so wounded by Christian Dogmas and behaviors.  I personally have not, but I empathize with their pain.  Some are unwounded but could never get passed the contradictions and impossible theological problems.  Some, who want to be theists, are pretty "new-agey". 

Don't mean to pry, just interested.  I perceive that you and many here have kind and loving hearts – such a blessing!

Grace and Peace, John :HeartThrob: