Tentmaker Forum

Judges 19:22-29

22They are making their heart glad, and lo, men of the city, men -- sons of worthlessness -- have gone round about the house, beating on the door, and they speak unto the old man, the master of the house, saying, `Bring out the man who hath come unto thine house, and we know him.'

23And the man, the master of the house, goeth out unto them, and saith unto them, `Nay, my brethren, do not evil, I pray you, after that this man hath come in unto my house, do not this folly;

24lo, my daughter, the virgin, and his concubine, let me bring them out, I pray you, and humble ye them, and do to them that which is good in your eyes, and to this man do not this foolish thing.'

25And the men have not been willing to hearken to him, and the man taketh hold on his concubine, and bringeth [her] out unto them without, and they know her, and roll themselves upon her all the night, till the morning, and send her away in the ascending of the dawn;

26and the woman cometh in at the turning of the morning, and falleth at the opening of the man's house, where her lord [is], till the light.

27And her lord riseth in the morning, and openeth the doors of the house, and goeth out to go on his way, and lo, the woman, his concubine, is fallen at the opening of the house, and her hands [are] on the threshold,

28and he saith unto her, `Rise, and we go;' and there is none answering, and he taketh her on the ass, and the man riseth and goeth to his place,

29and cometh in unto his house, and taketh the knife, and layeth hold on his concubine, and cutteth her in pieces to her bones -- into twelve pieces, and sendeth her into all the border of Israel.

So what we see here is a bunch of guys wanting to hurt (probably rape, I think that is what they mean with 'know') a guest, so the man who invited them to stay over then sends his wife out, so she may be serially raped till she dies. He shows no sign of even caring for her death or suffering. Instead, he cuts her up. 

"Ah, what a nice morning, let's take a walk. Oh hey, it's my concubine, who I gave to a horde of rapists last night, and who apparently got raped again and again. Get up, woman! Oh, she must be dead from all the raping. Let's cut her into twelve pieces then"

The rapists are all killed later, so God gets a big thumbs up from me for that, but the guy who sacrifices his wife so she may die a horrible death has apparently done no wrong.

This is only one of the many (extremely) misogynistic passages I've encountered while reading the Old Testament so far. The problem is that God doesn't intervene, instead; he encourages.



Levicitus 12:1-2

1And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,

2`Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, A woman when she giveth seed, and hath born a male, then she hath been unclean seven days, according to the days of separation for her sickness she is unclean;

3and in the eighth day is the flesh of his foreskin circumcised;

4and thirty and three days she doth abide in the blood of her cleansing; against any holy thing she doth not come, and unto the sanctuary she doth not go in, till the fulness of the days of her cleansing.

5`And if a female she bear, then she hath been unclean two weeks, as in her separation; and sixty and six days she doth abide for the blood of her cleansing.

Having a baby is gross. Having a baby girl though, that's twice as bad!  :thumbdown:



Deuteronomy 22:28-29

28`When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,

29then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.

I think it's safe to assume that "hath caught her, and lain with her" can be translated to "raped her".

Here's the problems:

1) it's only a problem if someone runs into the rape.
2) The one who has been done wrong, is not the poor girl that just got captured and raped, but her father.
3) The girl then has to marry her attacker.


I think there's no need to add more verses, you all can see where I'm going with this. How can we approve of this in any way? How can this God be the same God as the God Jesus tells us about? It feels to me like it isn't. (even though there's many OT references in the NT). :ticked:

TY SNL I am dealing with this in my own life right now. Having to face facts that the bible is a very brutal book. And that its almost seems God changes personalities for the nt.

I am being so challanged hanging on another forum where the predominate view is athiesm and agnosticism and if Im not mistaken many that are there left christianity over the reality of the bibles brutality and what I guess they would term inconsistancies

I have made some great aquaintances over there that I already value as friends and Im challanging myself to gain answers for myself

I have to get back to you but I did post what I see so far on another thread here somewheres, you might have seen.

I have been able to deal with these things thru coming to know the bible on a spiritual metaphorical and allegorical level
that is the only way I can live with those type of verses. I still cannot imagine my God actually being this God portrayed in those stories. So Im seeking to understand and searching. Im tired of ignoring this.

kept

 :thumbsup: SLN
I too wonder about these things.

I have heard a few times of people mentioning like Gary Sigler  that the OT God is not the same God we know -- in other words the God they where hearing was NOT the true God... the God that told them to slay the woman and the children etc....... yes a voice, but maybe not the true voice :dontknow:

QuoteSLN
I too wonder about these things.

I have heard a few times of people mentioning like Gary Sigler  that the OT God is not the same God we know -- in other words the God they where hearing was NOT the true God... the God that told them to slay the woman and the children etc....... yes a voice, but maybe not the true voice

I did hear Gary Sigler say once in a taped sermon that he had asked the Lord the heartwrenching question (concerning Elijah and the bear attacking the youths who taunted him) "Lord, how could you do that?" and the Lord spoke to his heart and said, "I didn't do it...Elijah did it."  I am going to post something I wrote for my blog. It is a long article.....but it takes a look at what you pondered in your post above....

These things have been heavy on my heart for several years...and I have spent much time reading about them and seeking the Lord's answers.  The following is the conclusion I have more or less come to about the "voices of god" we hear in the OT.

The Voice of the Good Shepherd from God Quest
God Quest is a site I highly recomend for those who want to see God "outside the box" that most of Christianity has tried to cram him into. I came upon this rather eclectic site over a year ago. It probably turned up on google when I was searching for my hot button topics (free will vs. sovereignty, suffering and the atonement) I have downloaded and read (at least once) most of the writings in the essay section and have since exchanged a few emails with the owner.

The Voice of the Good Shepherd and A Grand Experiment are probably my favorites. They both are similar in subject matter but I will focus mainly on The Voice of the Good Shepherd. I've recently reread (and reread again) The Voice of the Good Shepherd. The premise of both of these two articles is that there are two voices running throughout the OT. One is the true God....the other is the voice of the "destroyer" (satan) who has been given the power to impersonate the real God in this world. Both articles discuss two similar situations that involve Elijah and Moses......when God passed by them and allowed them to (really) "see" him. The author gives other examples where he sees evidence of the actions of "another" (false ) god.

The idea that there are voices of two different gods heard in the Old Testament is really not that far fetched. Is there anyone who has NOT wondered about the stark differences between the God of the OT and the God we see depicted in Jesus. I heard it said once that it seemed as if God "got saved" somewhere between Malachi and Matthew. Even today in the church system there are sincere believers who seem to hear the voice of a different God. The article presents the viewpoint that one voice depicts the "true" God.....the savior of all, condemner of none. The other voice is the one we learn to discern only through the holy spirit.....and realize that it is NOT the voice of the true spirit of God. Without delving into the sovereignty issue.....and with the assumption that God is in charge of everything whether he allows it or causes it.......part of the purpose is for us to learn to discern the true nature of God....shown to us in Jesus......under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

I randomly went through the Strong's meanings for some of the Hebrew words that are translated God....Lord in the OT. (It was very random.....and focused mainly on several verses in Exodus that were mentioned in the one article) It was interesting that one of the words (elohiym sp?) can be traced back....as the singular form of a plural word that has "false god" as one of it's definitions.......back farther to an unused root word meaning (among other things) "to twist". Not enough to base a theology on for sure but enough to pique my interest. I know how the names of God reveal the nature he is trying to demonstrate yet could the names not also reveal a nature that is not "his" (although he is responsible for what this entity/being/god does)? Following is a quote from the article:

Running through the sacred literature of the three monotheistic world religions of Judaism, Islam and Christianity, the voice of two "gods" may be heard. In what Christians call the "Old Testament", the good God was identified as "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." In the book of Job, a second ruling spirit-being is identified, called Satan. The two gods (or "Lords") converse and transact in the first two chapters of the book. The origin of this second "god" is further stated in Isaiah 14, called "Lucifer." He is further identified in Ezekiel 28. An examination of these chapters reveals that the good God by sovereign decree has legitimated the worldly rule of Satan. He is free to impersonate the true God (do things in his name) and free to "deceive the nations." Satan is a "minister" of the good God and subject to Him, for God is sovereign over all. Satan is the instrument by which the true God has "committed all humans to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32). When the devil (also called, the tempter) came to Jesus, he said to Him that he would give Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory." Though Jesus told Satan to "beat it!" Jesus did not deny that Satan indeed did have this kind of power to bestow.

As you can see in this quote it points out that Jesus never told Satan he did not have this power....just that he told him to get lost. This article blames the "god of this world" for many of the OT atrocities, the sacrificial system, the Law etc. Not that the true God is just sitting back ringing his hands saying "Whatever will I do" but that for some reason this realm was subjected to futility and he allows the destroyer to carry that out. However, it is important to him that we know his basic nature is incompatible with death and destruction because he clearly states that "he created the destroyer to destroy". Both articles are very interesting...and there are quite a few other articles on the site (many written by the site owner) that offer a unique, makes you think, perspective. I exchanged a few emails with the author/owner of the website. And since this the post is already too long, I will add a few other snippets from the article....and bring this to a close.

There are many abusive and cruel things recorded in the Bible done in God's name that certainly were not done in his nature and were therefore not directly of the true God, though allowed by Him. Jesus said it is possible to discern between these two personalities by "their fruits." Discerned through the eyes of faith, there are certain things that the true God will and will not do. The object of our faith is God himself, his character, nature and personality, not necessarily that which was recorded as being done in his name. If we cannot bank our all on God's personality and His reputation for doing only good—then we are left with nothing to bank on at all! The litmus test to determine which "Lord" is speaking one need only think of Jesus: would Jesus do the thing?

It is a thought provoking article with much to think about. You really should visit the site and take a look..... 
http://www.godquest.org/index.htm (http://www.godquest.org/index.htm)

Cindi....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

I've been asking for answers as well, and almost immediatly found this article when I started google-ing (as if led by the holy spirit, eh? :p)

http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/Whois.htm

I will check out your links as well, Cindi. Thank you for sharing.  :boyheart:

Regarding the ability to discern through the Holy Spirit; I think this can actually be seen as your conscience. When you steal, you know you're doing something bad. When I scream at my parents, I immediately feel bad about it. Likewise, When I read about women being raped and it being condoned, it's as if there's an emotional red alert going off in my body and it feels like something is screaming at me that it can -not- be the real God's voice.  :2c:

Thanks for the links

:girlheart:

kept

GREAT responses!!!! Keep posting :girlheart:

Absolutely inspired thoughts...........I started crying as I saw the first text on the concubine as it struck me differently rereading it after a number of years.........always the most hideous, heartless of stories........

For the first time I saw it somewhat  as an allegory..........

And then wondered at Hagar........how she was thrown into the desert to die and God did come to her and Ishmael to save their lives and comfort them.......

Joian

Isa 45:7   I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Pro 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Deu 32:39  See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Amo 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in
a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Ecc 9:12  For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Why?

CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.


CEV Rom 9:15  The Lord told Moses that he has pity and mercy on anyone he wants to. 16  Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do... Rom 9:19  Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" 20  But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?


Yet we know, God is love.

1Jo 4:8  The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.



Will Jesus look to us one day and say the same words he did to Peter?  

Mat 14:31  Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to
him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"


Peace,
Paul

Oh Paul, you came and rained on our parade  :thewife: :hammerhead: :mlaugh:

I dont think it is evil talk at all  :dontknow:
There is NOTHING wrong with searching for truth.....
:girlheart:

How many people have rejected God simply because of how they see him depicted in the OT? Go to any of the skeptic sites on the internet, that dissect and criticize and defame God because of how they see him depicted there. Kept has mentioned that she is hanging out at an exchristian/atheist site....and through their eyes she has come to see the brutality many Christians are okay with.  I've come to believe that there are two voices of God in the OT. One is the true God, the other is the voice of the god of this world...Satan, the carnal man....whatever you want to call him/it. Part of our spiritual journey is to learn to identify which god is which...and discerning this in the pages of the OT is one of the biggest challenges. It is evidence that we have the seed of God within us and the holy spirit working within to give us discernment when we are repulsed by the stories of the atrocities in the OT....the seemingly schizoid behavior of God....loving and compassionate one minute....ready to smite and punish and reject the next.  So when the children of Israel "heard God" tell them to wipe out the Amalekites, or the Canaanites...or when Abraham "heard God" tell him to sacrifice Isaac, it was not THE God, it was the voice of the impostor (however you want to see him) Even the ten commandments warns us about other gods. My "rule of thumb" has become to filter everything through the image of the invisible God we see in Jesus. There are four gospels in the Bible. Four times, the same story, with little discrepancy is told, and retold. Four chances for us to see it and get it right. THIS is the picture of the invisible God....the face of God is the face of Jesus. If what I read in the OT does not line up with that....how can I attribute it to our Father in whom there is no darkness AT ALL?  I know the stories are there for a purpose....perhaps to instigate this rising up within us that cries out that it does not jive with who we know God to be. The beginning of the journey to discernment that leads us to the true God of light and love....just may begin in the OT when we begin to see that something is amiss. The pieces to the puzzle just do not fit.

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Hi Paul,

I think the real issue here is God being seemingly schizophrenic.

Genesis 1:26: And God saith, `Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is creeping on the earth.'

Plural. The whole Elohim thing.

The link I posted earlier seems to have a lot of answers. Specifically the naming of God/Yahweh/LORD seems important. Especially, when they prove to be different entities.

When looking at Kings: 22:4-7 we see this:

4And he saith unto Jehoshaphat, `Dost thou go with me to battle [to] Ramoth-Gilead?' and Jehoshaphat saith unto the king of Israel, `As I am, so thou; as my people, so thy people; as my horses, so thy horses.'

5And Jehoshaphat saith unto the king of Israel, `Seek, I pray thee, to-day, the word of Jehovah;'

6and the king of Israel gathereth the prophets, about four hundred men, and saith unto them, `Do I go against Ramoth-Gilead to battle, or do I forbear?' and they say, `Go up, and the Lord doth give [it] into the hand of the king.'

7And Jehoshaphat saith, `Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah besides, and we seek by him?'

The King of Israel gathers his prophets, 400 of them and they say the Lord will give [it] to them if they battle (obviously, these are prophets of the Lord). But Jehoshaphat asks for a prophet of Jehova(Yahweh) even after this! Would this not indicate they are not one and the same?


Here's one more:

Jeremiah 2:8: The priests have not said, `Where [is] Jehovah?' And those handling the law have not known Me. And the shepherds transgressed against Me, And the prophets have prophesied by Baal, And after those who profit not have gone.

This makes it obvious that Baal is not just a little wooden statue. Now then, what is Baal?

(http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/Whois/ref4.jpg)

We now know Baal simply means Lord. Obviously, there's enmity between Jehovah(Yahweh) and Baal(Lord). Almost as if Baal is Jehovah's... adversary? ;)

Like in the previous example, it is clearly used as if it's a different thing from Jehovah(Yahweh). So why do we act as if they are one and the same?

Would we really need a holy spirit to discern who's word is true if there's only one God-like entity, and therefor only one word? This would explain why God seems to be loving and righteous one minute (fair judgments). And incredibly cruel the next.

What if the seemingly absent devil in the OT, is really just who we thought was one side of our God? Of course, he would appear in the NT again, because Jesus does have knowledge of him, being the son of the heavenly father. And not being the child of the 'father of all lies'.

One more verse to add to this:

2Corinthians4:3: and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed,

4in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God; 

Paul,

You comment reminded me of Jack..........LOL I get your humor...........and your timing.......but you can't just shut us down like that........LOL  Carry on ladies.........
I am enjoying the whole thread..........

Joian

Earlier today, I sent some over here from "My Church" with these words.  :happygrin:

........ sometimes I wonder why I am here but the Lord speaks to me that there will be a couple maybe three that will come out of their dead religion to know the one true God known as Love. Before I came here I spent three years at Tentmaker forums and loved to explore my Christ as do these dear brothers and sisters today. 

This discussion (link below) on "misogyny" is so much deeper than anything I shall find here and it thrills my heart to see some of God's children, free of the bonds of the law, men and their Hellfire religion, seek the depths of His purpose and ways. For any that would be interested, this is what liberty in Christ looks like. This is a wonderful way of coming to know your God and it will never be allowed nor encouraged in the fundamental church gatherings of today. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1244.msg10388;topicseen#msg10388

Be blessed I can only pray others will come to know such freedom to explore our Christ, that captures all in His Love,

Jack

Should I go back and tell em they are too young?
I learned early on that the anointing never chokes but only causes one to see and feed on that which is suitable for his or her soul. Amazing how that works and how much liberty we can find in such.

I bookmarked this thread and plan on coming back and explore all the messages and links. 

Wow, tough subject.

I agree that this must be dealt with though.

Wasn't the all night rape a simple relating of facts of what happened and how the countrymen reacted when they heard of the crime? I don't see where God was condoning the home owners behavior. Are you saying the lack of any verbal condemnation is condoning the man's actions?

I haven't read this passage in many years. The only sense I can remember making of it is that maybe the master of the house was following some custom of honour of the time (?) by giving up his daughter rather than to let his guest be assaulted. Absolutely seems crazy though - to me any man worth anything would give himself up, right? Anyway, this was obviously a horrific act all the way around.

Here's my 'overall' take on the subject of God/evil though:

For years I have stated that He 'allows' evil to exist. The reality is that for a soverign God - that equals the same thing as creating it. God's heart/nature though is absolutely 100% the opposite of evil. In Him is no darkness at all.

This subject MUST (that is, MUST - did I mention absolutely MUST?) be rightly divided.

God has set things up here to let evil/darkness/death exist and fully intended for it to be so, but those things are the opposite of His nature. That's why the word satan means 'opposed', he is adversarial and 'stands against' everything God is.

Also, the OT sees God through the veil of the law. God definitely hides his true nature in the OT and reveals it in the New. Also "to the froward thou wilt show thyself froward". God resists the proud, and will show Himself unsavory to such.

I will go down to the mat anyday to absolutely insist there is no evil or darkness in God whatsoever, I know Him - and there is no evil in Him at all.  

Rightly dividing is the key here.

blessings,

- byron

P.S. I will also (I'm sure controversially) add that my faith is not in a book - it's in a person. The book talks about the person, but I know the person personally - which is far better.

As far as Misogyny in the old testament (now that I actually looked the word up) how's this:

5The angel that was talking to me went outside. He said, "Look! What do you see coming?" 6I said, "I don't know—what is it?" He said, "That is a measuring bucket." He also said, "That bucket is for measuring the sins* of the people in this country." 7A lid made of lead was lifted off the bucket, and there was a woman in the bucket. 8The angel said, "The woman represents evil." Then the angel pushed the woman down into the bucket and put the lead lid on it.

That's fairly Misogynomic, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, Eve ate the bad fruit, so this is ALL HER fault, right?  :mshock:
BTW, I am just playing devils advocate here, so no hate mail please. For the record, I love women, and have always had to fight a natural tendency to be greatly biased against men (great mom/abusive father syndrome)

Paul,

I once heard a speaker say "If you have to dumb down a meeting to get someone, you'll have to dumb down the meetings to keep them"

Hennesy Wrote

QuoteThis discussion (link below) on "misogyny" is so much deeper than anything I shall find here and it thrills my heart to see some of God's children, free of the bonds of the law, men and their Hellfire religion, seek the depths of His purpose and ways. For any that would be interested, this is what liberty in Christ looks like. This is a wonderful way of coming to know your God and it will never be allowed nor encouraged in the fundamental church gatherings of today. 

AMEN! I so agree, I was thinking the same thing..... Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is FREEDOM :HeartThrob:

QuoteI understand what you are saying Hennessey, Yet, just because we feel free to eat meat sacrificed to idols does not mean we should boast in our liberity and choke the little ones who disagree with our meat!  Love should prevail over our desire to post what we want. I'm just saying be careful of the young ones, that's all, nothing more or less. You and your readers, may not partake of the milk as some might. It is our duty to make sure we do not offend others in our liberty. From your past postings I'm sure you would agree. Peace brother, and let start slowly chewing together as not to offend the drinkers of milk. I'm sure you understand.   

Sorry Loveroftruth, I got you off topic so why don't you get it back on track   

Yet....perhaps what is choking many of the little ones is this God of the OT...with his vengeance and wrath....and kill them all, men, women and children attitude.....
Perhaps seeing a discussion like this among mature Christians is just what they need.(although I am not sure one would count me in that group since I have only been a Christian about 9 years but a believer of universal reconciliation almost right from the beginning)  Perhaps what is offensive to many new Christians is the view of God that the traditional church crams down their throat...and the verbal and mental and emotional linguistics one must go through to reconcile the God of the OT with the face of Jesus that we see in the NT.  They don't match....there is no way to make them match.....in my opinion....and it caused me great angst until I came to the conclusions I have.  Perhaps these conversations will be like a drink of cool water to parched lips???  Perhaps these conversations will provide a glimmer of what is really in the heart of God. (light and love and NO darkness AT ALL)  I say this without meaning to offend.  I have always thought it very rude for someone who does not post much on a forum to spout off their opinions before they settle in and get to know everyone.  Truth be told, I will probably not post often on this forum since my best bud annie and I have a yahoo group that we started about a year ago called Emerging Universalist....which is my heart.  It is a forum where discussions like this are commonplace...and where we reason together as God invites us to do.  I understand your concerns, Paul, and I think it is good and commendable to protect new believers.....but perhaps in protecting them and soft pedaling what we say and really believe, more harm is being done.  Just my opinion...and again excuse me for being so outspoken.

Cindi.....


Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Members board topics cannot be viewed by guests.

Jack you may want to change your post on MyChurch or indicate registration is required.

Don't feel led to move the topic (yet)

Blessings

This is a very interesting topic and I don't think there are simple answers to that. So far I understand Father is a Healer, Restorer and Reconciler. He is all Good and there is no one Good but Him. Yet there is the 'problem' of evil and we also know that He is soverign over all the works of His hands. As I have come to see it, Father takes the responsibility for the evil His creatures (including the 'god' of this worldsystem) do, because He 'owns' them and He made them, very well knowing what they would do.

Here are two lines of thought to this that both ring very true to my ears:

The 'Job Principal'

It is also important to note the book of Job. There is an important principal in the Book of Job that is a key to an understanding of God as Good.

Job and his friends spend 40 chapters trying to work out why Job was suffering 'at Gods hand'. His friends wrongly insisted that he was suffering because God was punishing him for his sin. The final message to them all is that God is God, he has some very powerful creatures, God does what he likes, and who are we to argue with Him?

Whilst Job accepted his suffering as coming from God, and that God can do what he wants, we the readers are made privy to a little extra information. The very powerful creature responsible for Job's woes was not God but Satan. And the cause of Job's ills was an altercation between good and evil in the heavenlies.

This 'Job Principal' provides a precedent for care in uncritically accepting the term 'God' at face value in other problematic passages of scripture.

God gives his creatures freedom, and with this freedom, there is the (often actuated) possibility of abuse of this freedom. The second aspect of this 'Job Principal' is that God accepts full responsibility for everything his creatures do. In this case, God accepts responsibility for Satan's actions!

A legal analogy on the acceptance of responsibility may be helpful.

A Nuclear power station may have 'leaked' causing death and injury. The owner of the power station then declares himself bankrupt, resulting in the injured and the relatives of those killed having no redress to any compensation. However if the Government steps in and buys the power station, in so doing it also takes on its liabilities. The Government did not cause the deaths and injuries, but by its action it assumes responsibility, and those affected by the nuclear accident now have legal redress. When they 'sue' the Power Station, they now 'sue' the Government, even though the Government did not cause their injuries. The government did not 'have to', it chose to accept responsibility.

Acceptance of responsibility is seen at its most clear form in the Cross-.where Christ 'becomes sin' for us and takes away the sin of the World. The righteous dying for the unrighteous.

This website tries to find some answers to this questions: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~moorea/index.html

( I don't agree with everything the writer says but thought it interesting )

The other comment would be of John Gavazzonie:

"I would like to see you give some explanation regarding the powers that are circumscribed by the power of God. You do briefly mention satan as a mere tool in the Job scenario but for those whose minds flash to a number of scriptures that speak of principalities and powers a more detailed explanation would help. They may erroneously conclude by your description of a one power universe that you have not taken these other scriptures into consideration. I have often felt that in giving an answer for the hope that lies within us, particularly in the subject you're dealing with we should make it clear that God brings about evil in a different way than He saves, heals and delivers. The latter is a result of  the direct touch of His Spirit  with His intrinsic goodness while the former is brought into existence by His  withholding Himself from the evil one, so that in his perceived autonomy, satan is a malignant will in God's universe that contaminates everything he touches, quite unlike God, but as you and I know, ultimately he serves the purpose of God.  To state my point as clearly as possible, we want to avoid being understood as believing that evil arises out of the intrinsic Purity which is God Himself. We are all of us, men and angels, so constituted that we need Him as love, light and life,  with the result that when He in His wisdom deprives us of that for a season, we are exposed to that malignancy of autonomous existence (so-called "free will") that we were not ultimately created for. In short, we must spend a season exposed to and contaminated by that which is alien to us so that we might fully absorb that for which we were created. Our natural, created capacity for God must be temporarily filled with the perverse so that finally we cry out for His Goodness ("God-ness"). It seems that the only possible preparation for being filled with all the fulness of God is to be "consumed with all unrighteousness (unrightness)" bringing about a cry of desperation which is the necessary condition of "right-filling"  and which lies at the heart of faith. I'm beginning to get clearer on something: that  our natural capacity for God, though given by Him, is powerless to fulfill itself and awaits His touch of grace. What a dilemma natural man is faced with (I'm not yet speaking of sinful man); he has a capacity, thus a need and is utterly incapable of doing anything about it until touched by grace. That's why  he is so vulnerable to turn to anything that promises to fill him because he can't stand the awful silence of God while his cavernous need is ever before him. When you add the perversity of sin and death to his natural state he is now really ready to experience grace. In other words, sinfulness compounds the dilemma of naturalness setting man up for grace. This is what I want to look at more carefully and God permitting probe to its core. Of course, you set out to make the point that it is God and God alone, not any out-of-control rogue spirit that we are all ultimately dealing with and real mature faith operates in that knowledge; that you have powerfully done. I can't help it that you have a quality to your writing that invariably moves me to say, 'Hey, I want to look even more carefully at this.'"  End Quote.

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 05, 2007, 06:39:37 AM
Wasn't the all night rape a simple relating of facts of what happened and how the countrymen reacted when they heard of the crime? I don't see where God was condoning the home owners behavior. Are you saying the lack of any verbal condemnation is condoning the man's actions?

I'm saying the context of the entire OT (the law) condones this kind of behavior against women. They think it's ok because they are taught, seemingly by God (through the law), that a woman is worth much less than a man. The all night rape was a result of what the man thought was the right thing to do. The way it was written indicates it was considered a honorable course of action, for no blame is attributed to the man.

I know God too, and mine seems to hold a different opinion on how honorable it is. ;)

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 05, 2007, 06:39:37 AM
I will go down to the mat anyday to absolutely insist there is no evil or darkness in God whatsoever, I know Him - and there is no evil in Him at all. 

Rightly dividing is the key here.

There doesn't have to be darkness in our Heavenly Father for him to have created an evil counterpart/agent/servant. That's what Satan is for. What I'm saying is that while evil serves a purpose (for me the purpose is avoiding it at all costs, and searching our Heavenly Father instead). I'd say it's not too farfetched the devil made the people of old believe he was God. His purpose is after all to decieve and tempt. There's no way of telling what light is, when there is no darkness.

I delved a lot deeper into this in my post on page 1. Specifically note the scriptural quote which clearly indicates there is a difference between Jehovah(Yahweh) and the Lord, while we in this age tend to believe they are one and the same.

Maybe the OT is confusing and contradictory, simply because the writers were confused and it showed in their writing. Inspired, sure. Inspired by whom though? That's what we have the Holy Spirit for, to discern.

The hearts of men are wicked, and sometimes, God gave Israel exactly what it wanted.

Am I "letting God off the hook"? Perhaps. But I don't think it is a small matter that the saga of Israel is an oracle of how mankind ought NOT to be, not what it should be. It is a saga of futility and wrongheadedness.

Jesus knew those hard scripptures better than we, yet He summed up the law thusly... to love God, and to love our neighbors. Paul knew those scriptures as well, and he says their is no Jew, no Greek, no male or female, in Christ.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

wow loveroftruth

you just said a mouthful!

:girlheart:

kept

QuoteNASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not

Is this not at work today with regard to the fundamentalist.
They wordhip a god that sends the majoirity of his children to eternal torment.
This is not Our Father. Are they worshiping another god?
Do they love their neighbor when they condemn most of them to Hell?

I would not have pondered such six weeks ago but after spending much time for the first time in decades with the fundamentalists I wonder whether they know God. It often breaks my heart.

Jack

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 05, 2007, 07:57:04 PM
Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

You really hit the nail on the head there I think.  :thumbsup:

What should also be considered is that God doesn't change, and his Word doesn't change. So how Jesus is, God is too and always has been, since he doesn't change! Behaviour and thoughts that differ from Jesus' then, suggest they are not of God, but of someone else.

"The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever."   Isaiah 40:8

If it stands forever, then how can we make the switch from law to grace? Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God, and he never followed the law. Because there was no law yet. And obviously, the law wasn't forever once it did came into existance. God's mercy and love however, are still here and have been here since the very beginning.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."   John 1:1-5

This is where I come out on the OT God verses the NT God. I know that the explanation works for me in most instances, but nothing is perfect. Here are a few verses that reveal the key:

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.  

I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

Romans 9 records God saying that Jacob He loved and Esau He hated before they were born and before they had ever done either good or evil. When this was taken on the surface level only, it has given birth to the doctrine of Calvinism and the bellief that some are predestined to either be saved regardless of what they do or to suffer eternally in Hell regardless of what they do. But, reading the whole chapter in context and adding chapters like Gal. 4 which deal with the same subject correct this misunderstanding. It is talking about God's attitude toward the first born verses the second born. Yes, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, and Issac and Ishmael were used by God as living parables of this truth, but what is trying to be revealed through the OT is that God will always hate the first man of the flesh (the first Adam) and will always love and accept the second born man of the Spirit (second Adam). You can whine like Abraham did for Ishmael to live in His sight in an attempt for God to receive the works of our flesh, but He will always respond that we must cast out the bondwoman ( the unsaved soul) and her children (the works of the flesh) for they will never be heir with the son of the freewoman ( the fruit of the spirit).

So is it true that the OT deals better with men than women? Yes. But is He a mysogynist? No. No more than He is a respector of persons like with Jacob and Esau. The male represents the spirit- man and the female represents the soul-man who is not subject to the spirit.

Many have come to the same conclusions when it comes to husbands being over wives or women being silent in the church. Is there a truth here in these things? Yes, all of the Word is true. But, are these distinctions and rules of order given to show God's preference of one gender over another? No, they are types given to teach about the order of God on the inside of all of us that must be learned. The elder soul must come under the younger spirit (the elder must serve the younger) when Jacob and Esau are used for the examples. We were not supposed to learn that every older child must submit to their younger siblings. In the same way, the male represented spirit must be prefered over the female represented soul. Not because God prefers men over women, but because He prefers what comes from the spirit which is eternal as opposed to what comes from the soul which is temporal.

(Yes Jack, I finally got it) (private joke).

John

 :cloud9: This is gonna take some explaining, but the reason God didn't do anything to the man who put the woman out, is because the man was seeing thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) a truth hidden in God.

The woman is symbolic of the flesh of the inner court realm that is being judged now as to whether they are lukewarm (choosing to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit), and as such being spit out of His mouth, ie. cast back out into the outer court realm of darkness, wherein is the judgment of the flesh, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Everything that is happening out there, is a mirror image of what God is stirring up to deal with in the inner court priesthood's heart. The principle is that the body can only do what it sees it's head do, and we (inner court priesthood) were made to be one with the Head. So they, the outer court ones, when they see us (spiritually speaking) hate our brothers (in our hearts), they go out and kill theirs, hate and murder being the same thing.

So those that are of the inner court that do not allow the circumcision of the heart being performed by the Spirit in this hour, are being cast back out, Truth hidden from their heart, and darkness increasing. As the Christ rises in our hearts, the darkness flees, ordered long ago to join itself to the "swine", ie. those in the outer court that will eat anything, the husk and the grain. Thus, the wheat/Christ and the tares/darkness are raised or given strength, together. That's why it's getting darker and darker out in the world, as more and more of Christ is seen, simultaneously.

But God in His perfection and workings of grace in that none should be lost, has marked or "Sheba-ed" them (means to return again), so that after "Solomon" appears and "she" sees his wisdom the Lord has given him, and the riches of his kingdom, she will lose her breath/give up the ghost ;()

Quote(Yes Jack, I finally got it) (private joke).

John

I needed something like that tonight to lift my spirits and give encouragement. I have been so wearied today as far as my sharings being received.

Bless you brother,

Jack

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 05, 2007, 07:57:04 PM



John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

Yes, but remember that Jesus told them they were making the 'word of God' of no effect by their tradition and not upholding the most important parts - "judgement and mercy" and not entering into the kingdom and blocking others etc. So he wasn't dissing the law at all, just their approach, right?
- b

All,

I am going to say something here and I trust most know me enough to know that I do not mean to correct or rebuke anyone. I especially do not want to diminish the very real concerns about our Father in the hearts of the original posters who have been hurt by reading about women in the OT......Fair enough?

Here is a very key verse in understanding and accepting the things that we read in the OT. Remember, what I wrote in my last post on this thread about these things happening to them and being written down for our examples:

Jas 4:13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15  For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16  But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jas 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God sees us with the eye of faith and has predestined us all to be conformed to His image. This means that He sees us all as eternal and immortal. Now, suppose just to make it so we can grasp with our minds that eternity is a billion years (yes, WillieH, I know that eternal means no limited length of time even a long one). Do the math. What is the difference to any being that will live billions of years is there between say 14 years and 70 years. It is as James said, your life either 14 years or 70 years is but a vapor. It is here and gone again.

Now, if you are an atheist and believe that this life is it, dying at the hand of a murderer or rapist at 14 means that you were robbed of 80% of a normal life span and you can get very angry at God for allowing this to happen. This is why the word talks about being carnally minded is death and at enmity with God. Being carnally minded is not thinking sinful thoughts. It is minding the things of the flesh or thinking of things in terms of what they mean to the flesh only. Paul said it this way:

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.  

Please do not answer that I am unfeeling or uncaring concerning those who died young in the OT by the command of God or for those who die young or badly now. I have lost many very dear to me including the 14 year old I am thinking of now. I could not bear it and still love God if I thought that this life is it. If I look at the literal Bible stories which are seen and temporal instead of the unseen things that are being taught us in the spirit through their examples which are eternal, then, I am being carnally minded. This carnal mind is what causes unbelievers to see the God of the OT as a monster. But, we who know that our 70 year life here is nothing, also, know that there natural lives whether long and peaceful or short and painfull is equally nothing in the big scheme of things as understood in eternity.

Even those who were killed by God's command in the OT or even treated horribly as some women were done to them and recorded for our learning. We owe it to them to learn our lessons well on whom the ends of the world has come. They will not be perfected without us and one day when we break open the door for mankind to partake of immortality, some whose hard lives that were used to teach us spiritual truths will thank us for learning the spirituals behind their natural lives and for bringing them with us into eternity.

Peace,

John

This topic sure took a different turn! :laughing7:

I'm gonna have to ponder on it at work today. The scripture Kratos quoted does seem to make some sense of it though, will have to read it again later. 

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2007, 05:00:24 AM
:cloud9: This is gonna take some explaining, but the reason God didn't do anything to the man who put the woman out, is because the man was seeing thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) a truth hidden in God.

The woman is symbolic of the flesh of the inner court realm that is being judged now as to whether they are lukewarm (choosing to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit), and as such being spit out of His mouth, ie. cast back out into the outer court realm of darkness, wherein is the judgment of the flesh, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Everything that is happening out there, is a mirror image of what God is stirring up to deal with in the inner court priesthood's heart. The principle is that the body can only do what it sees it's head do, and we (inner court priesthood) were made to be one with the Head. So they, the outer court ones, when they see us (spiritually speaking) hate our brothers (in our hearts), they go out and kill theirs, hate and murder being the same thing.

So those that are of the inner court that do not allow the circumcision of the heart being performed by the Spirit in this hour, are being cast back out, Truth hidden from their heart, and darkness increasing. As the Christ rises in our hearts, the darkness flees, ordered long ago to join itself to the "swine", ie. those in the outer court that will eat anything, the husk and the grain. Thus, the wheat/Christ and the tares/darkness are raised or given strength, together. That's why it's getting darker and darker out in the world, as more and more of Christ is seen, simultaneously.

But God in His perfection and workings of grace in that none should be lost, has marked or "Sheba-ed" them (means to return again), so that after "Solomon" appears and "she" sees his wisdom the Lord has given him, and the riches of his kingdom, she will lose her breath/give up the ghost ;()

Hi Cardinal

lol..I can  see where your at here  :icon_flower:, considered posting yesterday but just didnt know where to start

Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 05, 2007, 07:57:04 PM



John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

Hi LT

Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I think maybe Kept may well have realised what was Coming :laughing7:

Tis the nature of the Beast , the enmity of the Flesh . :mblush:

Enmity is HATRED

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

One who HATES is called a Murderer AND A liar IS ???

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 

1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
 
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 




Through their WORKS of the LAW and Pride in the self-righteousness which came with it , Blinded theM to see they were Still in Bondage\flesh to the ministry of DEATH.

The WORKS of Abraham Being WORKS of FAITH not LAW...the LAW being a Shadow of the reality to Follow.

Moses stands as their Accuser .the LAW carrying a FORM of TRUTH( shadow) but not the Reality.

Jhn 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


Jhn 5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?


Jhn 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.

Jhn 5:46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.


Jhn 5:47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

compare with this



....... John 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


Jhn 8:33  They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


That which is Not of FAITH is SIN?

Jhn 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Jhn 8:35  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.


Jhn 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Jhn 8:37  I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.


Jhn 8:38  I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


Jhn 8:39  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jhn 8:40  But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jhn 8:41  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.


Jhn 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

(Faith cometh By Hearing)


Jhn 8:43  Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 8:44  Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Jhn 8:45  And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

why? Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law



Jhn 8:46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?


Jhn 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.


Jhn 8:48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?


Jhn 8:49  Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


Jhn 8:50  And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Jhn 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.


Jhn 8:52  Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.


Jhn 8:53  Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?


Jhn 8:54  Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


Jhn 8:55  Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The GOOD news For ALL

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; 

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

For mine Christ SPEAKING to the very nature of their Flesh ...the enmity of it.

Blessings
T,
PS back on topic  :icon_flower:

Quote
I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

But the Living parables in the NT match up and tell a true story about The Father and Jesus - they show a true character... yet the parables we see in the OT show us a barbaric, non-loving God who doesn't really care about many but a few :dontknow:

Good thinking, here, Taffy!  Everyone of us have to read this thousands of times to "get it!"

So I'm bringing it to the top!  It is the thing we should rehash over and over and over ......

Because our "carnal mind" does NOT believe this, but our "INNER MAN" does, and He will

swallow UP what? To be carnally minded is "death" and "death" is the last enemy to be

not only overcome, but DESTROYED!  The word Deutronomy means "repetition".......the children

of Israel went round and round the mountain of Sinai, til one day they said "We have camped

"this" mountain long enough....it's time to move.....and we are NOW and have been since Calvary

invited to MT. Zion!  The second coming of the Lord Jesus is a "repetitive" SOUND of BELIEF in

our hearts of Calvary! 



Gonna wash that old man right outta my hair! ha

PUT on the NEW!

It's really not NEW, just NEW to us as we "understand" it!  Things "new" and OLD! Remember?

You are good at the law/grace thing.  I know you either taught KIM or she taught you, she is

too. I wish she'd get herself back over here.......because I can't maneveur over there where

she is.

Gonna wash that old man right outta my hair! ha

PUT on the NEW!

Gal 4:21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


Gal 4:23  But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.


Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



yo sis so true
Being one who was truly Bound to LAW , it was coming to see the Law V faith and Grace
which set ME TRULY FREE...
Old man\new man
Flesh\ Spirit
Law \ Grace & Faith
Old C \ New C
Bondage\ Freedom
Child\ Son
Death\Life
Darkness \ light
Night \Day
MOON \SUN
Blind\ eyes
Deaf\Ears
Old Jerusalem\New Jerusalem

etc

I believe I shared it in part with Kim..?.long since...

Lol

Rose invited her over..but for now shes wheres she at Sharing her thoughts with others..who knows she maybe led here..I never say never
Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: Kratos on November 06, 2007, 09:47:22 AM
All,

I am going to say something here and I trust most know me enough to know that I do not mean to correct or rebuke anyone. I especially do not want to diminish the very real concerns about our Father in the hearts of the original posters who have been hurt by reading about women in the OT......Fair enough?

Here is a very key verse in understanding and accepting the things that we read in the OT. Remember, what I wrote in my last post on this thread about these things happening to them and being written down for our examples:

Jas 4:13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15  For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16  But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jas 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God sees us with the eye of faith and has predestined us all to be conformed to His image. This means that He sees us all as eternal and immortal. Now, suppose just to make it so we can grasp with our minds that eternity is a billion years (yes, WillieH, I know that eternal means no limited length of time even a long one). Do the math. What is the difference to any being that will live billions of years is there between say 14 years and 70 years. It is as James said, your life either 14 years or 70 years is but a vapor. It is here and gone again.

Now, if you are an atheist and believe that this life is it, dying at the hand of a murderer or rapist at 14 means that you were robbed of 80% of a normal life span and you can get very angry at God for allowing this to happen. This is why the word talks about being carnally minded is death and at enmity with God. Being carnally minded is not thinking sinful thoughts. It is minding the things of the flesh or thinking of things in terms of what they mean to the flesh only. Paul said it this way:

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.  

Please do not answer that I am unfeeling or uncaring concerning those who died young in the OT by the command of God or for those who die young or badly now. I have lost many very dear to me including the 14 year old I am thinking of now. I could not bear it and still love God if I thought that this life is it. If I look at the literal Bible stories which are seen and temporal instead of the unseen things that are being taught us in the spirit through their examples which are eternal, then, I am being carnally minded. This carnal mind is what causes unbelievers to see the God of the OT as a monster. But, we who know that our 70 year life here is nothing, also, know that there natural lives whether long and peaceful or short and painfull is equally nothing in the big scheme of things as understood in eternity.

Even those who were killed by God's command in the OT or even treated horribly as some women were done to them and recorded for our learning. We owe it to them to learn our lessons well on whom the ends of the world has come. They will not be perfected without us and one day when we break open the door for mankind to partake of immortality, some whose hard lives that were used to teach us spiritual truths will thank us for learning the spirituals behind their natural lives and for bringing them with us into eternity.

Peace,

John

John, I have seen this and other atrocities lightened a whole bunch with the truth of "this life and world being vaporous." I believe I have seen it by the Spirit. "A vaporous life" ....... one of the great promises in the Bible.

I am so ready for the next realm. He's been letting me have stay overs a couple nights a week.  :laughing7:

Jack

 :cloud9: Well then, Jack I wanna come to YOUR house, LOL......

Card, the welcome mat is always out.

LT.

Not wishing to hyjack the thread but inresponse to LT question

Just to add

Paul Himself was a Murderer , a Liar and a Man steeler... all ( after the LAW) preaching the Ministry of DEATH prior to conversion ,


1) a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer

a) of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery

b) of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them



1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].


1Ti 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:


1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;


1Ti 1:7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;


1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


1Ti 1:12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


1Ti 1:13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.


1Ti 1:14  And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.


the TRUE THIEF

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.( as for those in darkness)


n 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.   [/u]

the thieves and Robbers were the One and very same...Those WOLVES in sheep s Clothing?

10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.


Jhn 10:2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.


Jhn 10:3  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.


Jhn 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Jhn 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


Jhn 10:6  This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.


Jhn 10:7  Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.


Jhn 10:8  All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jhn 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

Jhn 10:11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Jhn 10:12  But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:13  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


Jhn 10:14  I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.


Jhn 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 06, 2007, 02:32:52 PM

Quote
I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

But the Living parables in the NT match up and tell a true story about The Father and Jesus - they show a true character... yet the parables we see in the OT show us a barbaric, non-loving God who doesn't really care about many but a few :dontknow:

LT...IMO, very courageous and well said.

It was a loving God that created me with the capacity to desire that ALL men be saved. AND to desire that ALL...women and men be treated... justly...in this life.

That humans abuse other humans and BLAME God for it...is perfectly human and ALWAYS wrong. To abuse that which has been created in God's sacred image..a HUMAN BEING...is to miss the mark.

IMO...all proclamations that people use to credit their god for their killing, raping, plundering, stealing, abusing...other human beings are false. I'm hoping to be done... with minimizing and or jumping through theological hoops to defend...my own and others outrageous and disgusting human behavior, against other humans.

Dean

Dean you echo my heart as well

very well said  :HeartThrob:

kept

 :cloud9: After reading some of the comments on here, I remembered my first reaction to the bloodiness of the OT, and my revulsion of it. I also remember my revulsion of the cross. Hadn't thought about it that way in a very long time; really unaware consciously of any change in me in that area, but there definitely has been one.

I don't see contradiction in the "2" Gods. I see BOTH as loving and merciful, just from His point of view, and not mine. His point of view is that all had to be done in the OT exactly as was recorded to present a natural "blueprint" for a generation of sons to be able to read spiritually and apply it thru the mind of Christ, that the WHOLE of creation, those things under the earth, above the earth, and in heaven/spirit, might all be brought into Christ.

Accusing God of being a murderer is missing the mark, yet saying He didn't have complete authority over what was happening at any given nanosecond is missing the mark also. The sin is not in killing; the sin is in not yet being able to resurrect what you have killed, into newness of life. This is why He tells us not to judge lest we be judged by the same measure. The sin is not in the judging; God judges things all the time. The sin is in our  inability to judge the flesh by quickening it, which is how God judges it. This is why His judgments are unto victory. The victory is in the Spirit.

What is really happening when He gives out revelation, is that the "old" terrestrial flesh is being judged by being compared, ie. weighed in the balances and found wanting, but the new "celestial" flesh which is Christ and not founding wanting for anything, is "resurrected" out of what once held it in the bondage of corruption. And both are preserved. Wonder how that happened.....:winkgrin: :mshock:

Abraham "killed" Isaac as surely as if he had plunged in the knife, for he took the thought and began to walk it out. If a man lusts in his heart, he commits adultery. Yet God said what Abraham did was counted unto him for righteousness. If God had not stopped him, it still would have been righteousness. There is no sin unless God tells you to do something and you DON'T do it. Many times the Israelites had to slaughter their own family members that had fallen away from obedience. The sons of Kore were swallowed up of the earth.

This is where the Israelites missed it. God changed horses in the middle of the stream and they didn't change also. He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, but what is the same is, that He is always changing, just to see if we're really following His Spirit in obedience, or have made camp around what He said yesterday.

Dust has no life of it's own; the life is in the Spirit. This life, this dust that we are, is only  mud painted on that which really is alive, so that we can see it thru these eyes. The invisible God desired visibility. He is sovereign. How can the pot say to the potter, why did You make me this way? The emotional soul ties to this realm of experience are being consumed with the fire of God, purified and cleansed of wrong motive, and it hurts, because that's where we "live". But it's what was worked into Jesus when He was able to say, "My brethren are those that do the will of my Father."

His ways are not our ways. He is always seeing the end from the beginning. All that has ever been has come out of the cross. All the past things that were recorded, came out of the cross. At that moment before the foundation of the world, time and Spirit met and there was an explosion. In the Spirit it is always now. He showed me this in the Spirit in a vision once. It's as if the Spirit stretched out the fabric of time to accommodate His girth. Hard to explain the things of the Spirit, Amen? Blessings to all........

Dean Wrote

QuoteThat humans abuse other humans and BLAME God for it...is perfectly human and ALWAYS wrong. To abuse that which has been created in God's sacred image..a HUMAN BEING...is to miss the mark.

IMO...all proclamations that people use to credit their god for their killing, raping, plundering, stealing, abusing...other human beings are false. I'm hoping to be done... with minimizing and or jumping through theological hoops to defend...my own and others outrageous and disgusting human behavior, against other humans.

Dean, can you elaborate more about what you are saying here? more details!!!  i.e. what are you saying?...I am a bit slow :grin:
But really want to understand what your saying here :flowerred:

One thing I have been really thinking on, over the years I have received so much beautiful spiritual insight into the inner workings of Jesus within thru the ot stories. I marvel that thru all that time it never really bothered me much that real people were possibly involved and if it did crop up I dealt with it in 3 ways that Ive already shared.
I will repost them on this thread from my thread elsewhere:

QuoteHere is the way Ive come to deal with it

It is meant to be metaphorical - to express how man goes from being so carnal to spiritual and is about what goes on within man.
If those things all really transpired to real people they are now in that great cloud of witnesses, and their lives are not over as God has made them alive and do count for the bible says that
these things are written for those of you whom the end of days are upon. Therefore seeing the application of those things as we read them and allowing them to work in our lives would bless those that lived them.

Secondly, the bible says 'I kill and I make alive'....Vengence is mine..Thou shall not kill

I have come to see that the fact that God makes alive is the huge part of this equation. Man cannot make alive again what he kills, God can. Therefore, if in the grand scheme of things if killing works to the planned outcome God has in mind and since He makes alive again what He kills then He is not killing to kill as man does. Making alive is huge to me in this thought process.

Edited to add, thirdly, because I see all mankind as eternal and all are going to enjoy the same eternity, this life is a small drop in the bucket therefore what happens here is but a pinprick compared to the grand scheme of things and I dont feel I could see the grand scheme clearly enough at this time to judge with any real foundation if you will.

As of late, Ive began to wonder IF this verse does not also shed some light on this:

2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Thought to come back so Im not misunderstood, by this verse, Im saying that that God that is seen in the ot, is adversarial, not calling Him satan if you will, but adversarial but for us when we get the inner meanings that adversary is transformed into an angel of light. However, that still dosent settle it good enough to me lol

just sharing this so you will know what my processes have been, not sure if I shared that here or not, cant recall.

kept

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2007, 11:25:00 PM
:cloud9: After reading some of the comments on here, I remembered my first reaction to the bloodiness of the OT, and my revulsion of it. I also remember my revulsion of the cross. Hadn't thought about it that way in a very long time; really unaware consciously of any change in me in that area, but there definitely has been one.

I don't see contradiction in the "2" Gods. I see BOTH as loving and merciful, just from His point of view, and not mine. His point of view is that all had to be done in the OT exactly as was recorded to present a natural "blueprint" for a generation of sons to be able to read spiritually and apply it thru the mind of Christ, that the WHOLE of creation, those things under the earth, above the earth, and in heaven/spirit, might all be brought into Christ.

Accusing God of being a murderer is missing the mark, yet saying He didn't have complete authority over what was happening at any given nanosecond is missing the mark also. The sin is not in killing; the sin is in not yet being able to resurrect what you have killed, into newness of life. This is why He tells us not to judge lest we be judged by the same measure. The sin is not in the judging; God judges things all the time. The sin is in our  inability to judge the flesh by quickening it, which is how God judges it. This is why His judgments are unto victory. The victory is in the Spirit.

What is really happening when He gives out revelation, is that the "old" terrestrial flesh is being judged by being compared, ie. weighed in the balances and found wanting, but the new "celestial" flesh which is Christ and not founding wanting for anything, is "resurrected" out of what once held it in the bondage of corruption. And both are preserved. Wonder how that happened.....:winkgrin: :mshock:

Abraham "killed" Isaac as surely as if he had plunged in the knife, for he took the thought and began to walk it out. If a man lusts in his heart, he commits adultery. Yet God said what Abraham did was counted unto him for righteousness. If God had not stopped him, it still would have been righteousness. There is no sin unless God tells you to do something and you DON'T do it. Many times the Israelites had to slaughter their own family members that had fallen away from obedience. The sons of Kore were swallowed up of the earth.

This is where the Israelites missed it. God changed horses in the middle of the stream and they didn't change also. He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, but what is the same is, that He is always changing, just to see if we're really following His Spirit in obedience, or have made camp around what He said yesterday.

Dust has no life of it's own; the life is in the Spirit. This life, this dust that we are, is only  mud painted on that which really is alive, so that we can see it thru these eyes. The invisible God desired visibility. He is sovereign. How can the pot say to the potter, why did You make me this way? The emotional soul ties to this realm of experience are being consumed with the fire of God, purified and cleansed of wrong motive, and it hurts, because that's where we "live". But it's what was worked into Jesus when He was able to say, "My brethren are those that do the will of my Father."

His ways are not our ways. He is always seeing the end from the beginning. All that has ever been has come out of the cross. All the past things that were recorded, came out of the cross. At that moment before the foundation of the world, time and Spirit met and there was an explosion. In the Spirit it is always now. He showed me this in the Spirit in a vision once. It's as if the Spirit stretched out the fabric of time to accommodate His girth. Hard to explain the things of the Spirit, Amen? Blessings to all........

Card that is one of the most awesome posts I have ever read. I believe there is equity in God whether you spent time on earth 4000 years ago or you live today.  We only observe the workings on this side of the grave but I know in my heart righteous recompense is made on the other side. God will be All in All. All serve at His pleasure whether it be Judas or Abraham, you or me.  All play their parts to bring the corporate man Christ to perfection. It is already done in God but still you and I must fulfill our part that we might see how it's done. This is life, Old Testament or New, and it sucks or it is glorious depending from where you view it.

Blessings,

Jack

"And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first."

I, like others, have been spending time with former believers that have lost their faith and are now atheists who love nothing more than attacking Christians and blasheming the name and character of God. Most Christians believe that they are more spiritual than these people or more educated on the Bible, but I have not found it to be true. In fact, it is the epitome of pride to believe that you can think like they think and see the world as they see it and still keep your faith. I mean, what makes us think we are able to handle these things the same way that they did and remain in the faith?

I asked God what was the beginning of the track down this path that leaves to questioning God and His ways and He said that it is relying on the carnal mind. Which means looking at things as they appear in the visible world instead of looking what they reveal in the spirit world.

I have been called fearful for admonishing others to heed the warnings of our Father in the Word. I do not think that I am fearful, but I have known both the depths of God and the depths of Satan to my shame.

I will say it again. The OT records things that God did to ancient people for our learning as to spiritual truths. If you get stuck looking at what naturally happened instead of what it reveals in the invisible realm of the spirit, you are going down this same path to judging God and finally unbelief.

Does God hate every first born child and love every second born child"? No, but He does hate what is produced in the natural (that which is first is natural) and loves what is born of the spirit. Does God hate women or Caananites? No, He hates the unsubmitted soul (harlot woman) and the enemies of the Kingdom within us (sin, works of the flesh etc.)

I do not know how to say it clearer and that is my fault. Either take up the cause of how God hates all firstborn and all Egyptians and all Babylonians or see things below the surface. These were real people, but the spiritually minded do not see these things as they were omly temporal. The unseen truths that were being revealed of the battle within us over the woman and the enemies of our soul is seen by those who have learned not to read the Word by the carnal mind.

Once again, carnal mind is not an insult and has nothing to do with sin. It just means to mind the things of the flesh. Male and female are flesh traits no matter how you cut it. There is no such things in the Kingdom.

John

John

I dont know how to tell you this without it seeming to contradict you but I am stronger than ever in the spirit. I actually feel as if God has established me more lately, not less.

And this is important I just say this ok, not to you or to anyone imparticular but speaking for me what is really deep in my heart.

I love the spiritual word but until a person has a taste for it you must sit down where they sit, enjoy them, love them, spend time with them and if you do that you might just find they actually grasp much more then you thought and God will give you a way to commune

Paul said it so beautifully
to the jew I became as a jew, to the gentile...............

You and I see my time on that forum very different and I will stick with Gods view that I get

love ya

kept

Most everything God has taught me had first started with Him showing me something that was NOT true.

I cant explain it but He will nudge me and not let me except something and then will show me the truth.

Most of what He has taught me has been later shown to be the truth.. the first time was when I was a new born christian and He showed me the tithe was false... that was the start of more and more so much so that I never became part of the "Church System"

Now, what has been written in this thread has shown an incredible freedom for people to discuss, ask questions, share all without a fear for our salvation...... I praise God for that.

Many things have opened my eyes and some things have confirmed what I am sensing, but the most important is that GOD in my life has taught me by showing me the false and allowing me to ASK, QUESTION and SEARCH and I have never sensed His displeasure from questioning the things that have been taught for hundreds of years and passed down as truth.

FAith is HEARING GOD, What He is saying and asking YOU or me to do personally and walking in it,. To me faith is not blindly believing what man teaches me... this is not faith.

I praise God for the freedom to ask and seek and allow God to unfold things and I thank God for this forum which has been a tool in allowing people to finally come out and share the things they had nowhere else to share

PEACE and LOVE :girlheart:

 :cloud9: Amen LT! And Amen Jack, we all serve at His pleasure....... :thumbsup:

I second that Amen LT  :girlheart:

you go girl! God doenst mind our questions! I am just sure of it.

:HeartThrob:

He knows we are part dirt haha

kept

Heya Kept......part dirt.........dumb as dirt eh? :grin:

too funny ..... give me a dirty lady anyday   :laughing7:

Today I am a eunuch and all the girls look alike.  They're all saints in my book.   :happygrin:

Quote from: Hennessey on November 07, 2007, 04:16:14 AM
Today I am a eunuch and all the girls look alike.  They're all saints in my book.   :happygrin:

:flowerred:

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 06, 2007, 11:39:58 PM
Dean Wrote

QuoteThat humans abuse other humans and BLAME God for it...is perfectly human and ALWAYS wrong. To abuse that which has been created in God's sacred image..a HUMAN BEING...is to miss the mark.

IMO...all proclamations that people use to credit their god for their killing, raping, plundering, stealing, abusing...other human beings are false. I'm hoping to be done... with minimizing and or jumping through theological hoops to defend...my own and others outrageous and disgusting human behavior, against other humans.

Dean, can you elaborate more about what you are saying here? more details!!!  i.e. what are you saying?...I am a bit slow :grin:
But really want to understand what your saying here :flowerred:

I no longer consider a book...the Bible...to be the word of God. Jesus...IS the WORD [logos]of God. My Religion turned me from the LIVING WORD of God...Jesus Christ...to Bible Idolatry.

IMO... Orthodox Christianity worships a book and has mistakenly given it QUALITIES ...that belong only to the LIVING WORD. Scriptures are purposed to be a witness of and towards the LIVING WORD, Jesus. Instead..men have said that Scriptures are a witness to a book, that becomes the word of God... and to the organized Churches... that they hold positions of power and leadership in.

The Gospel ..is the SPOKEN STORY of the LIVING WORD. Spoken and heard through God's greatest creation...human beings.

There is a story of a 3 year famine in a land a long time ago. The tribal leader believing he has heard from his God ...sacrifices 7 HUMAN BEINGS in order to end the famine. But, first...in accordance with his own position and agenda... he chooses who and who will not be HUNG. The story goes on to say that after he has sacrificed these 7 HUMAN BEINGS...[by the way...this HUMAN SACRIFICE was deemed necessary because of the blood thirstyness of the previous leader] that God heeded the prayer for the land.

Put that on tonights news as a current event...and the HUMAN response would be significantly different than RELIGIONS response to David's sacrifice of 7 human beings recorded in...  2 Sam 21.

LT..I have never met this god..that David said, told him to sacrifice those people so he could get it to rain.

Let the free for all ...begin.

Dean

Dean Wrote

Quote
Put that on tonights news as a current event...and the HUMAN response would be significantly different than RELIGIONS response to David's sacrifice of 7 human beings recorded in...  2 Sam 21.

LT..I have never met this god..that David said, told him to sacrifice those peolple so he could get it to rain.

I too do not recognize this God  :dontknow: :msealed:

Dean............My mouth is dropped...... you hit the nail on the head.......... and I just so agree with you!

How can we ignore it because we are supposed to ignore what it really says to see the spiritual behind it  :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

Quote from: Dean on November 07, 2007, 04:18:11 AM

I no longer consider a book...the Bible...to be the word of God. Jesus...IS the WORD [logos]of God. My Religion turned me from the LIVING WORD of God...Jesus Christ...to Bible Idolatry.

IMO... Orthodox Christianity worships a book and has mistakenly given it QUALITIES ...that belong only to the LIVING WORD. Scriptures are purposed to be a witness of and towards the LIVING WORD, Jesus. Instead..men have said that Scriptures are a witness to a book, that becomes the word of God... and to the organized Churches... that they hold positions of power and leadership in.

The Gospel ..is the SPOKEN STORY of the LIVING WORD. Spoken and heard through God's greatest creation...human beings.
Dean

:cloud9: That's very true, Dean......

TY Dean you have the courage to say what I want to say

QuoteI no longer consider a book...the Bible...to be the word of God. Jesus...IS the WORD [logos]of God. My Religion turned me from the LIVING WORD of God...Jesus Christ...to Bible Idolatry.

yes I couldnt agree more and this is what is being beaten home to me lately within my spirit!

Bible Idolatry.......this is what is being so revealed to me as in, and some wont like this ok but Im just gonna say it anyways and get it out. Its burning in me to get out.

How cold I have gotten without realizing it that I would live on brutality to get spiritual truths! I feel as if Ive had a wake up slap to the face and I needed it. I feel like a drug addict that is being released from an addiction!

ok its out and I know it wont be popular but that is what is happening within me.

kept

I wanted to add that it also great humbles me to think that many many could have gone thru such horrors and here I sit and read and get all high spiritually. I think they would be blessed that we receive spiritual insights in such a way, but, it just so saddens me now and the insights I receive at their expense cause me to bow my knee and ask God why?

I just value human beings so much now, all human beings are so precious, my heart is being expanded and I just dont know if I can look on some things the same anymore

 :cloud9: God wants relationship with HIM, and until we can let go of the written word a little, we will never come to fully know the Word of God that is Spirit. What you find is, that the Spirit will teach, referring to the written as a confirmation of what was spoken by the Spirit personally. He has literally spoken things to me to look up in the Hebrew, and I am still in awe when I get in there and discover it's exactly what was being taught to me, right there in black and white, the principle hidden in plain sight, sometimes in only one Hebrew word, but multiplied and expanded in understanding, thru numerous scriptures.

If you really want to know someone you wouldn't read a book about them in their presence. That would teach you about them, but you wouldn't have a personal one on one relationship with them. But both experiences are necessary. If we didn't know what His nature was like, we wouldn't know Who it was that was speaking to us, in the beginning of our walk. It helps us discern His voice, and learn to hear Him. Blessings to you......

QuoteWhat you find is, that the Spirit will teach, referring to the written as a confirmation of what was spoken by the Spirit personally.

Yes Card, it is reversed from what we were taught in the org. church. Revelation by the Spirit to make the Logos, Living Rhema. My neighbor Christie who has the deepest walk and relationship with Christ has not picked up a Bible in two years at God's direction. Such heresy. lol

Thats so wild you would say that Jack.

I was sitting basking in the presence of God and I had the thought that what would it be like God to just put aside the book and lets say you and I go out and live more life together amongst people.


God and I are having a fun day today haha Im wondering where to venture to next, what group of people I might find myself in the midst of only to find Him in the midst of them!

He is so awesome!

kept

 :cloud9: Yep, Jack, been there, done that.......is there a denom yet called "Heretics Anonymous"? If not, maybe we should start one........you go first  :laughing7:  oops.......my bad........you already did on MyChurch, LOL.......I'm right behind you, buddy..... :thumbsup:

PS. Just making sure........you know I'm just kidding with you, right?

QuotePS. Just making sure........you know I'm just kidding with you, right?

I think we're on the same page    :laughing7:

Every "wave of God" has been out of balance in either the Word or the Spirit when it washed on the shore. It is like two oars in a row boat. You cannot go straight for long if you neglect either in favor of the other. I have been led away from God by a wrong understanding of the Word and the Spirit came in time and brought me back. But, I have also been deceived by what I thought was the voice of the Spirit and it was the Bible that brought me back from error.

Deciding to no longer stay in the Bible is just as dangerous as taking a break from listening to the Spirit. IMO

Whenever man follows a voice that starts to take them contrary to the Bible, you are faced with one of two paths. You can hold up and seek God until the Bible and the Spirit again agree. Or, you can join the crowd that no longer considers the Bible to be God's Word so you can continue in your error. The choice is always ours to make. (Oops, did I say choice out loud?)

We must test the spirits because all spirits are not of God. There are three that bear witness in Heaven and these three agree. If the Word (Bible) and the Spirit do not agree, we have misunderstood one of them and we need to wait upon the Lord until He comes and judges the matter.

John

Quote from: Kept on November 07, 2007, 03:30:50 AM
John

I dont know how to tell you this without it seeming to contradict you but I am stronger than ever in the spirit. I actually feel as if God has established me more lately, not less.

And this is important I just say this ok, not to you or to anyone imparticular but speaking for me what is really deep in my heart.

I love the spiritual word but until a person has a taste for it you must sit down where they sit, enjoy them, love them, spend time with them and if you do that you might just find they actually grasp much more then you thought and God will give you a way to commune

Paul said it so beautifully
to the jew I became as a jew, to the gentile...............

You and I see my time on that forum very different and I will stick with Gods view that I get

love ya

kept

Kept,

I do not worry about you in particular and you have admitted that it can be dangerous for someone not well grounded to listen to those who once knew God and walked away so far when they share how they got there. Does it surprise you that you have read the OT for so many years while not looking at the outward appearance and now you all of a sudden focus on the natural occurances and wonder about the righteous behavior of God to these people? You see this as a good thing and I am sure that it is for you.

I know that the Lord has you and will keep you there. I personally get concerned when I start agreeing with those who do not believe in God. I think the difference between us and many other Christians that have gone there is we do not go there to teach them. We go there to learn what they believe. I just want us to make sure that we know the difference between going to learn what they believe and going to learn from them.

I was always told that I am a product today of what I said yesterday which is a product of what I believed the day before which is a product of who I listened to the day before that. Jesus said that we must be careful how we hear. I think it is true that we are over there for different purposes and I do not want you to think that I do not think both are valid. Sharing our perspectives will speak to those who need to hear what whichever one of us God wants each to hear. Some need to hear you and get more free and some need to hear me and be more careful. This is the many membered Body in action.

Know that I love and respect you,

John

John

I dont see them the same way. Not all of them.

You can take yourself out of God or God out of you in your own understanding but its not that simple. God doesnt just leave us cause we get fed up. God has staying power. John try really looking for Him in the voices there.

I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you!

I am as close as your own breath

My words are in your mouth

I could go on John

I know that they dont see God in them, but I do find Him, in some in small seed form, in others there is a tree bearing fruit

Its ok with me if they call it something other than God

afterall, He doesnt seem to be all upset about it

He is no respector of persons

that is just what I see John

I look for God and that is whom I speak to and listen for

If they want to label Him something else and God hasnt seen fit to change that then thats between Him and them.

I dont call it God because it bothers them, I can actually respect that because I respect them.

kept

QuoteDoes it surprise you that you have read the OT for so many years while not looking at the outward appearance and now you all of a sudden focus on the natural occurances and wonder about the righteous behavior of God to these people? You see this as a good thing and I am sure that it is for you.

No it doesnt suprise me a bit, God is always suprising me.

I dont discount all the spiritual truths Ive gotten from the brutal stories in the bible.
But I also dont want to just turn a blind eye to all the brutality especially when my daughter is 13, is about to enter public school with a lot of kids that werent raised living and breathing the bible as its been passed down to us. They are an internet educated generation that question everything. What answers will she have? What is she going to face? I am out there finding out John. And Im seeking answers.

When she is faced with the very real brutality of her God by her new athiest classmates what is she going to know and say? Will it be the first time she is faced with this? NO

This is one reason why I am seeking. This is what she will hear- well He is God you know, He can do what ever He wants and its not sin cause its HIM doing it. Yes He can order brutal rapes and murders and thats all fine and dandy cause He is God. Do as I say and not as I do kinda God you got there huh? (said in a mocking voice to her about how she believes) I could go on but that is the kind of stuff she will be faced with.

Christians for years have been too afraid to face these things and I dont want to be.

kept

Kept,

You have read enough of my posts to know that  I do not believe in the form of God's sovereignty as some others here. I do not believe that if a woman is raped that God ordained it. There is an enemy that we are commanded to resist and overcome. But, I really do not want to start that one again. I also see God in some of them, but it is what they believe that is poison to our souls. But, God will lead each of us as He chooses.

John

The spirit and the word are inseparable!  The Spirit is the mind of God!  

It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post-resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.

The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3).

So Kratos is correct, in that you need the word of God in order to obtain His mind. 

Kept you are also correct in that we do not need to shield people from Gods works with his clay!  

CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:  it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 3:1 For everything there is a stated time, And a season (Time) for every event under the heavens:"

Yes, we like to talk about the times God gave us our spouse, or first child in this stated time!  

Yet,  Is there a time for rape, a time for murder?  Ecc 1:13 is hinting that there is.  Ecc 3:1 is clear. There is a time for every event and it does not say only nice events!

I agree Kept  

QuoteChristians for years have been too afraid to face these things and I dont want to be.

So just how far are we going to take Ecc 1:13 and 3:1?   :dontknow:

When I posted the following comment at the beginning of this thread I was talking about this issue.  

QuoteWill Jesus look to us one day and say the same words he did to Peter?  

Mat 14:31  Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to
him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Are we going to accept the rape of a child as stated as  'a time for every event under the heavens'?  If the answer is yes?  Then we have to have faith that the potter know best for his clay don't we?  

Kept,  This is why Christians for years have been too afraid to face these things!  Are we ready to explore here?  :dontknow:  Because this will be a hard area to explore indeed!


Paul

Quote from: Pierac on November 07, 2007, 07:43:27 AM
This is why Christians for years have been too afraid to face these things!  Are we ready to explore here?  :dontknow:  Because this will be a hard area to explore indeed!

Paul

Rightly dividing between soul and spirit will make it easier.

  - b

 

Quote from: SLN on November 05, 2007, 02:26:40 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 05, 2007, 06:39:37 AM
Wasn't the all night rape a simple relating of facts of what happened and how the countrymen reacted when they heard of the crime? I don't see where God was condoning the home owners behavior. Are you saying the lack of any verbal condemnation is condoning the man's actions?

I'm saying the context of the entire OT (the law) condones this kind of behavior against women. They think it's ok because they are taught, seemingly by God (through the law), that a woman is worth much less than a man. The all night rape was a result of what the man thought was the right thing to do. The way it was written indicates it was considered a honorable course of action, for no blame is attributed to the man.

I know God too, and mine seems to hold a different opinion on how honorable it is.)

This passage quoted noted nothing from God, only human behavior, as also is true of 1 Sam 21 mentioned a little later.  Though all those nations were somewhat affected by the code of Hammurabi, the context of the people's actions was the very ancient Near East, not the society envisaged by Hebrew Scripture.  The "Province" of Benjamin had somehow become almost all males.  The probability of contact with other societies is high.  The nations surrounding Israel, while polytheists, were significantly into the goddess.  In the last quarter century or so some misinformed branches of feminists have proposed that the goddess worshipers exalted women, treating them like "goddesses."  They say it was the proponents of a male Yahweh who spoiled all this, bringing in male subjection and abuse of women.  Joseph Campbell, purveyor of myths with tenure at what was a women's college, Vasser I think, was also a popularizer of this as if it was fact.  There's a certain logical ring to it, but it's not history.  Women were mostly just property in the ancient world...except for Israel!

Not too distant in time from this event we find Deborah, a married woman, being raised by the anointing to "judge" all Israel.  There were plenty men.  God passed them all by, skipping her husband too.  God was so working with her that she functions as a "Seeress," a special form of prophet.  Some find in it a reflection of the apostolic.  Certainly every form of "ministry" the Bible records as done by women.  In the last chpt. of Romans, Andronicus, either a man or woman's name, and Junias, always a woman's name -- probably 2 women -- are called apostles; 4 out of 6 mentions of the evangelists Priscila and Aquila, the woman is mentioned first, which the early church interpreted to mean she was the foremost of the husband and wife ministry team; etc.

The last chapter of Proverbs, a thousand years later, is an idealization of the Ancient Jewish and Israelite Woman.  The family she inculcates with proper values and the home she oversees are significant enterprises, demanding much personal involvement and skillful labor; yet, she independently creates for herself additional profit making employment outside the home.

Isolating just one aspect of Mosaic law out of the context of a society produced by the whole of that revelation and then comparing that orphaned fragment to our own culture's contextualizing of that specific issue would be more acceptable if by merely doing something often was enough to legitimize it.  Many preachers sound like God came down on Mt Vernon and gave the laws of Moses to George Washington and now we're going to suffer the promised penalties for our disobeying that covenant.  I don't read history that way and I don't believe that describes God's relation to the United States.

Can you imagine a culture that had no police and no jails?  They were very urbanized, unlike the nations surrounding them.  As much as 70 % lived in cities.  Almost every man could read and write, something unheard of in the rest of the ancient world.  A great many of them were multi-lingual world travelers.  One of the great glories of their God was the care for the poor and needy.  About 3 % of the gross national product was spent on them.  As for the penalty of "taking a damsel" in this polygamous society being to take her as a wife if she allowed or she could opt for being set up to live as a single woman for the rest of her life...perhaps it's truer to the actual nature of the wrong.  Our culture has very odd Ethical standards.  Constant media bombardment with the idea that love is jumping in the sack as soon as possible on first attraction, never the path of courtship and marriage; so, the immature, after thousands of such scenarios drinks too much and...Here where I live in Georgia, I think the second rape conviction can result in the death penalty.  Perhaps a balance can be found if one considered some of the persons of note who were born of rape, if one could look in their faces to see the face of God.

The idea that "a woman is worth much less than a man" is something to consider in strictly biological terms.  A man can inseminate thousands of women, being the father to potentially as many.  With a little mechanical help, such as was even available in those antient days, he could have fathered yet thousands more.  Perhaps this matters more in our future out there where galaxies collide.  But...a woman can have on the average, what, maybe a dozen children?

Maybe somebody better in math can calculate the number of Israelites, God's priestly nation in the earth, if the rate they'd multiplied from when they entered Egypt until they entered Canaan had continued until the time of their first king Saul.  I encountered it once and I remember something in the several trillions.  By their failure to obey God's command to be fruitful and multiply once they got in the land, something He'd warned them of, they gave the world to the wicked.

---James

QuoteMy neighbor Christie who has the deepest walk and relationship with Christ has not picked up a Bible in two years at God's direction.

I probably should clarify this which I shared above. Let me first say the Bible can be taken by the carnal mind to say everything and anything. There are many levels of  the Written Word  that bring forth anointed Life; from the letter, to allegory, to language study, to numerology/Bible Code, Rhema etc.

Christie and her husband were beat like few others by the letter of the law churches for a couple decades. She knows one day God will call her back into the Bible but she awaits His signal. I am very careful not to push writings or a lot of doctrinal stuff upon her. She also heard the Lord tell her not to have Bible curriculum with her homeschooling. Instead she and her husband were to be the children's epistles and God would cause the children to seek after Him with out the prodding of the parents. The two oldest 10 and 8 read their own bibles and thrill to do so and they ask questions of their parents which thrills every body.

Christie came into God's complete sovereignty before I did and it has been the great "resting place" of her life ......... knowing God is working all things for good. This young mother found God's sovereignty at her youngest daughters death bed when she gave up. (dughter recovered) I once mentioned to Christie that I had really struggled terribly with the "Jessica Lundsford tragedy" some years ago. I asked her how a mother of little ones, the same age as this little girl, deals with such. Christie told me "His grace is sufficient" She knew that little girl had God's grace in unexplainable terms.  I knew Truth was spoken by this dear saint that day and I shall never forget it.

Any way, in closing, I was once led to give Christie Gary's "Truth or Heresy" questionnaire and she read it and said she agreed with "all men save" but it wasn't in her heart yet. One day a half year later Christie and the ten year old girl were chatting in the car while driving. Eden shared with her mom that she believe God loved all people not just Christians. With that Christie said "UR" dropped into her heart.

This is the most beautiful family I have ever known bar none ..... never seen four children like theirs. They glow with God's love. How can that be done with no church services and a mother that doesn't read the Bible.

Ain't He  Just Grand!

Jack

PS. James I came back and read your post. Wow, wonderful knowledge and I copied it. The first blessing I had was this morn when I read your "My Church" profile and the last before bed is this one. Thank you!
Thanks brother.

I've been considering the other views posted for a while now. I still can't swallow the thought of God commanding horrible things. I accept the fact that God created evil to teach us certain things, but I also intrinsically know that there is no evil in God.

Just like Satan was a tool in the book of Job, Satan could have been a tool in the entire OT. The book of Job makes it clear to us that while God allows Satan to tempt us and decieve us, he does not go down that road himself. Job's friends thought that it was God himself who was mad with Job for something, and that that's why he was being so severely punished.

Things like that make it obvious the people of old did not know there was a Satan. If they don't know of his existance, how can they tell the difference? They couldn't, because they had no holy spirit. That didn't come till Jesus, who showed us that our Father really is love.

It was very confusing for these people, because they were under the impression it was God, while it in fact was Satan doing this to them. God was allowing it, yes. And like 1Cor 10:11, which Kratos posted a couple pages ago says, it was definitely an admonition for us.

In my point of view, the things that happened in the OT were foreseen by God and were meant to happen to show us how much we need him. He did create evil for a reason. I however do not believe that God himself was the one ordering all this evil to be done.

Dean said:

QuoteI no longer consider a book...the Bible...to be the word of God. Jesus...IS the WORD [logos]of God. My Religion turned me from the LIVING WORD of God...Jesus Christ...to Bible Idolatry.

IMO... Orthodox Christianity worships a book and has mistakenly given it QUALITIES ...that belong only to the LIVING WORD. Scriptures are purposed to be a witness of and towards the LIVING WORD, Jesus. Instead..men have said that Scriptures are a witness to a book, that becomes the word of God... and to the organized Churches... that they hold positions of power and leadership in.

There is a quote by George MacDonald from The Elect Lady that says:

   "They dare not say God will not do this or that, however clear it be that it would not be fair; they are in terror of contradicting the Bible. They make more of the Bible than of God, and so fail to find the truth of the Bible, and accept things concerning God which are not in the Bible, and are the greatest of insults to him!...The God that many people believe in, claiming to be the religious because they believe in him, is a God not worth believing in, a God that ought not to be believed in."

Jesus promised us that the Comforter would come and he would lead us into all truth.  He didn't say "I will send you 66 chapters bound in leather and if you find something within those pages that seems to totally contradict the witness of the Holy Spirit within you...then go with the book."  However...in the "book" are four gospels.  Is it not odd that there are four books that tell virutally identical stories (other than minor differences)  I think it is God's explanation mark...his emphasis on Jesus....the image of the invisible God....how Jesus interacted with those around him...God declaring...."THIS is ME!!!"  "This is my heart toward my children!!"  I find no hint of the OT God in Jesus.  And God explained it to us four times...Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. 

And speaking of books, there is one that is very popular on some of the forums I am on....it is called "The Shack."  I haven't read it but I know people who claim that it is lifechanging.  Someone posted a quote from the Shack on my blog in response to a post about determinism/free will.   

[God speaking] "Mack, just because I work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies doesn't mean I orchestrate the tragedies. Don't ever assume that my using something means I caused it or that I need it to accomplish my purposes. That will only lead you to false notions about me. Grace doesn't depend on suffering to exist, but where there is suffering you will find grace in many facets and colors."

I have more to say but not the time to say it....running late for work.....

Cindi......

Quote
Things like that make it obvious the people of old did not know there was a Satan. If they don't know of the existance, how can they tell the difference? They couldn't, because they had no holy spirit.

It was very confusing for these people, because they were under the impression it was God, while it in fact was Satan doing this to them.

BINGO!!!

And when they killed all the woman and children they could just say God told them to do it. :msealed: :mblush:

ohhh The Shack is a book  :grin: I thought you all were talking about The Shack forum! lol

Sounds like a good book and one to be had to me.

Thanks Cindi and all of you for just being you. I love you all and I am so thankful for being a part of you and you a part of me.

:HeartThrob:

Kratos, thanks for your post to me. You really are a precious brother  :happygrin:

kept

 :cloud9: Saying that God didn't order any of it simply isn't true. Many times He told them to kill everyone and every living thing in the camp of their enemies. Saying that God doesn't destroy flesh, is the same as taking away the covenant of circumcision, or the experience of the cross, which was violent beyond description. Yet God prophesied of it hundreds of years before the event, thru His prophets thru His Spirit, and said it is foolishness to them that perish. Since God speaks and it happens, an argument could even be upheld that He spoke it into existence. Holding Him up to our finite and therefore limited concept of love and behavior, simply will not work.

And they absolutely knew there was a Satan; after all HaSatan appeared in the first few chapters of Torah, as the serpent. And it's interesting that in Job, God gives Satan permission to do all those things, including kill Job's 10 children. And Job's WIFE/SOUL tells him to curse God and die. But in all this, it says, Job sinned not with his mouth. To me, this line of thinking is getting very close to saying that God is not righteous. Personally, I wouldn't want to go there, because the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. My  :2c: Blessings to all........

Cardinal

I dont think you are hearing folks correctly if you think folks are saying God is not righteous.

I can see your points and they make perfect sense from Your paradigm. The absolute soverignty paradigm absolutely would not hesitate to agree that all this was Gods doing. But not everyone is an absolute sovergnty believer here and therefore our paradigm is not the same.

I agree with the spiritual revelation of the ot, that God destroys flesh and makes alive the newman in Christ in the spirit. That is all thru the ot on one level of seeing. Same story over and over and over. I dont deny that.

kept

And yes God gave satan permission but He didnt do the actual deeds to job Himself

He turned it to good

isnt that what happens when we read the ot, it is turned to good on the level of spiritual understanding

but question is, who was actually doing the deeds?

just food for thought

kept

 :cloud9: Satan, as the destroyer, as an agent of the Lord God, in Job's case. And the men God told to kill the enemies, in the other. Either way, to me God is in control of all things. If He wasn't in control for one second, death on a massive scale would be the result.

At least that's what was made plain to me, when I was saved a mere 8 days and asked Him for a sign. He let me feel and be aware of His hand being taken off me just a little, for about an hour. Within 2 minutes I was desperately scrambling to get into a Spirit filled church (the only thing I knew to do at the time) for protection from the enemy of our souls. I know my experiences are not necessarily the norm, but as He was dealing with a totally blank slate with a strong rebellious streak, the "show and tell" method of teaching seemed to bring Him the quickest results. :winkgrin::mshock:

That's still my  :2c: , but I understand your points.......

Oh Cardinal I do believe God is in control of satan and all adversarial spirits if you will

I dont think He abandons His throne at all sis

but Im working thru some things

thanks for helping me to work thru them, challange me all you want and that is good for me, I honor ya for it

:HeartThrob:

kept

So I could go and kill my neighboor today and say God told me to and it would be "of God" :dontknow: (Gods desire)?

Ohhh I was just reminded of something in my spirit too

I recall, will have to find this but it is very interesting

Job is supposed to be the first in order or oldest of the books if Im not mistaken. Have to find that

That being the case, if that is true, I would imagine that job is key to understanding much of the bible

sets the tone

I love seeing Jesus Christ in Job wowza

kept

Check this out

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=903

How we see our God in job might just be key to understanding the entire bible in that it is pre-mosaic most likely

interesting to think about

kept

 :cloud9: I know you know this, but I'm not really intentionally challenging you, Kept. Just sharing from another viewpoint sometimes does that without the intent being present, you know?

And LT, the OT was outward visible example, a series of parts of patterns to point to a whole. So not likely He would do that now that we are under a new covenant that is not about the outward realities but about the inward.

It was said by Him that He took Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts. We know that we too are "Israel" and that's why He told us that what happened with them was for our example. So if our "heart" offends us, we should cut it out, yes? Voila, the circumcision of the heart......... :winkgrin:

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 07, 2007, 04:32:43 PM
So I could go and kill my neighboor today and say God told me to and it would be "of God" :dontknow: (Gods desire)?

Hey Christine  :girlheart:......surely that's not of God, but IMO God can use "evil" in order to develop the good........curses can become blessings.

In photography.....the only way for a negative image to be properly developed is for it to be placed in darkness in the beginning stage of the process.  Darkness is required in order for the True Image to be developed within.

The true image is light and love.......and is the very essence of our creator.  In a metaphorical way, mankind is like a picture of the image of God.

The picture was taken with a flash of Light, and in order for the image to be developed it must become a negative first.

This idea.......came to me one day as I was studying the shroud of Jesus Christ.

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: That was good SG. I love "God thoughts" and that was one of 'em! Creation is His "wife", His witness. Helpmeet and foundation are interrelated words. He's so awesome and His Word a non-stop treasure......blessings to you........

God created a nation of people and promised them a land flowing with milk and honey where they'd live in houses they didn't build, eat of orchards and fields they never planted or tilled, and drink of vineyards they didn't cultivate.  In order to possess the land he gave them, they had to kill every man, woman and child, as well as all beasts, who were already living therein.  Later on, they had quite a lot of trouble from failing to do just that.  Remember, this was a nation dealing with another nation, not some individual against another person.

This is mentioned by some as proof against it actually being being the true God of Jesus Christ.  The part of the story that gets left out is the reason why God condemned the original inhabitants of the land; and, that later on, when His own turned against Him, doing the same things and even worse, He removed them as well.

What they were doing that was so bad was funereal/fertility celebrations where the whole family had sex with each other, grandma's corpse and animals, usually dogs, maybe goats included.  There were blood sacrifices, often their own children slain, all to worship their gods.  Because of the resultant deeply ingrained mental problems and actual diseases, they were all to be removed from God's sight.  He also didn't want His people to be defiled by such abominations.  By leaving some of the original inhabitants of the land they later learned to to the same things, even worse, leading to their own destruction and removal.  Their Asherim groves were groups of poles that were phallic symbols to goddess/fertility worship that surrounded the altars for human sacrifice.  The remains of these sacrifices were mixed into the mortar used for entryways and foundations in their houses.  The worship of Baal became so popular that God had reserved to himself but 7000 men (and their families) out of all the land in the days of Elijah.  All the rest had "kissed the calf," which involved a male temple prostitute devoted to Baal wearing a Calf's head suit on his upper body. The Jews and Israelites even attributed burning their firstborn children to God

I don't find this removal of those cultures hard to understand.  The lessons oversimplified are 1.) We need to take care we don't go to the wrong church today; and, 2.) He'll still give the wealth of the wicked to the righteous.

Remember this was a very active worship discreetly described in Jeremiah 7 and 32, particularly 32:34-35:  "But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.  And they built the high places (altars and asherim groves) of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Geehena), to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech (the King); which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."  If passing your children through a natural and temporal fire was an abomination that never even entered into God's mind for them to do, how surely abominable is the devotion to the belief today that this Gehenna is a place where your children will be burned by God for ever and ever!   


---James Rohde

TY Reformer

I was having a convo like this recently and meditating on the very real possibility that even animals sacrifice could have been a step up as one sister said.

I do see where this corruption would have to be stopped or the whole race of mankind could have been wiped out by diseases they had no cure for from the sexual practices with the dead, animals and such.

good point

kept

edited

:girlheart:

kept

Whoa! James if you care not to use that on your "My Church' blog I'll be glad to add an introduction and credit and place it on mine.

That piece is incredibly powerful. Please E-mail or PM me.

Bless you good brother,

Jack

Quote from: Hennessey on November 07, 2007, 10:30:35 PM
Whoa! James if you care not to use that on your "My Church' blog I'll be glad to add an introduction and credit and place it on mine.

That piece is incredibly powerful. Please E-mail or PM me.

Bless you good brother,

Jack

Sure, you can use it.  I'd hoped y'all hadn't missed what I posted last night (# 74 at the end of page 5.)  I hoped there might be some response on the future realms where galaxies collide.

---James Rohde

I did read the other post brother and I left you a PS as to how much I enjoyed it. Joian and I the other night were talking about the mighty men and women God is raising up to share truth in this dark day. The darkness only magnifies such messages as you share James. I have watched those with no heart for truth hurriedly scamper from your words in a number of places. I also know there are one or two that are seeing and being freed by such. What a wonderful day to live in when such wondrous truth is being published.

I believe we can only know God's sovereignty when we suffer His sovereignty. Then we fall at His feet in Love because He suffers with us.

Be blessed,

Jack

 :2c:

And when His disciples, James and John saw this, they said, "Lord do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. LK 9:54

Human history is filled with man [nations]... believing and declaring that their God has told them to kill other men and to destroy other nations.

I have personally met the Son of Man..Jesus Christ. "He said that He did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" AND... that if you have seen me...then you have seen the Father. My Religion told me all about the god who instructs men to kill and to destroy other mens lives...but...I have never met him.

Was it not a part of Jesus mission here on Earth, to reveal to men what God the Father is really like?

Dean

Dean, do we not put so much more than we should on this side of the grave denying that the greater work might well be done on the other shore. I have so wrestled with the best this world can give my children even if they live the best of lives by the world standards. Physical death is inevitable and not such a bad thing when we know of which death is the greater. 

Brother I have wrestled and suffered mightily with this for nights on end and all I can do is surrender knowing the glory he has provided will erase all the hurt and pain of the perceived injustices of this world.

Be blessed Dean and please know I appreciate your heart and those that search deep for His Truths,

Jack

Quote from: Cardinal on November 07, 2007, 03:49:41 PM
And they absolutely knew there was a Satan; after all HaSatan appeared in the first few chapters of Torah, as the serpent. And it's interesting that in Job, God gives Satan permission to do all those things, including kill Job's 10 children. And Job's WIFE/SOUL tells him to curse God and die. But in all this, it says, Job sinned not with his mouth. To me, this line of thinking is getting very close to saying that God is not righteous. Personally, I wouldn't want to go there, because the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. My  :2c: Blessings to all........

You make a valid point. I should have said "They don't know of Satan's capabilities", considering the display of power in Job, it's pretty obvious he's no small fish. Could easily pass for God, wouldn't you think? Job's friends sure seemed to think so.

The permission was indeed given to Satan. This is logical, for Satan has a purpose. If he had no purpose, if God could do such horrendous acts himself, he would have no need to create Satan.

I do think God is righteous, I think he's way too righteous to order genocide (including infants and sometimes animals). I also think he's omniscient enough to see the purpose of evil and therefore created Satan.

 :cloud9: I don't. After all, He "ordered" the flood......

Quote from: Dean on November 07, 2007, 11:17:18 PM
:2c:

And when His disciples, James and John saw this, they said, "Lord do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. LK 9:54

Human history is filled with man [nations]... believing and declaring that their God has told them to kill other men and to destroy other nations.

I have personally met the Son of Man..Jesus Christ. "He said that He did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" AND... that if you have seen me...then you have seen the Father. My Religion told me all about the god who instructs men to kill and to destroy other mens lives...but...I have never met him.

Was it not a part of Jesus mission here on Earth, to reveal to men what God the Father is really like?

Dean

This is an "excellent" post, in my opinion. Yes, that "is" what part of Jesus mission
was..............to reveal to men what God the Father was "really" like!  I can  tell you, I sure
believe THAT.

And did you notice, brother, that the false prophet over in the book of Revelation was able
to call down "fire" in the sight of men, .....and deceive them?

What do you think is the "difference" in what the "false prophet" did and in what
the diciples were told? that they didn't know what "spirit" they were of?

And the thing that makes me scratch "my" head is that it was said to be "as Elijah did?"

Jack, don't flip, we are just talking. ha

Maybe it's part of that stuff Jesus said "you can't bear now." ???


That leaves ONE true Prophet! HIM!

Where's Cardinal? Speak up on this, girl...........help me here. When Elijah "ascended" he
went into a "higher realm" didn't he? Those others said, "Where did he go? He's so out of
sight!" Yep!'

Christ IN you, one realm.
YOU in Christ, higher realm.

No fire in the City!
Truth is ETERNAL!
Mixture of law of sin and death and law of Spirit of LIFE is "used" by God til there
is nothing but the LAW of the Spirit, sounds to me like anyway,.

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2007, 12:57:14 AM
:cloud9: I don't. After all, He "ordered" the flood......

When we look at Genesis 6:5 though, we see that:

5And Jehovah seeth that abundant [is] the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil all the day;

They were only evil with no good in them. That at least takes away the slaying of innocent (or as innocent as one can expect from a human being anyway) ones by the hand of God.

If God is fine with just slaying everyone though, I don't understand why he would create Satan. He would have no purpose. God could have just punished Job personally to test his faith. It doesn't seem to make sense.

In that same way absolute sovereignity doesn't make sense to me, because it would mean he is in control of everything, every second. That would mean people were made rapists by God, for a purpose then, so that they and their victims would learn something maybe... but if he can just control exactly what everyone thinks or does, why not just make everyone saints? Problem solved.

I just want to note I'm not presenting anything as an absolute truth; I'm mostly just thinking outloud. So please don't think I'm trying to ruffle feathers or tell everyone how it is, my intent is actually to make sense of it for myself and others. So I don't mean to rebuke you, Cardinal (or any others). I actually very much appreciate your views. Keep them coming!  :bigGrin:

Quotewhy not just make everyone saints?

SLN this is why it is called the "mystery of iniquity" lol

QuoteJack, don't flip, we are just talking. ha

No comprende Rojo  :happygrin:

I keep thinking that Solomon had something right when he said the "day of our death is better than our the day of our birth." I have seen this best of this life and end of my children and I would concur with Sol. I don't get too excited about justifying God's actions in the OT or NT. I just know flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom.

Be blessed,

Jack 

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Yeah, I know that absolute sovereign thing is a hard pill to swallow, isn't it? Don't worry about my feather's being ruffled, I'm fine, but thanks for caring.

I haven't shared this in detail in awhile and I don't expect anyone to jump on the absolute sovereign bandwagon with me on the basis of this or anything else I share. All has to be quickened by the HS, to all, just like any other revelation of His character and nature, and Word.

This is not what led me to this conclusion, but rather was a confirmation of what He had already shown me. I was asleep, and then suddenly awake in the Spirit, caught up to the stars all around me, unaware of my body or any body. What I saw were orbs of light, transparent yet with faces on them, coming down thru the heavens, souls coming to inhabit bodies. I had NO opinion on this aspect of it whatsoever, as I try hard not to have any opinions on anything so that God will give me HIS. It seems to work for us, LOL.

Anyway, I could by the Spirit, hear their thoughts or hearts, however you want to say it, and they were definitely communicating with one another as they descended. They were full of joy and I felt a surge of joy as I experienced this. I heard them discussing their lives ahead of them, what they were going to be to one another in the natural realm, who was going to be "mean" in some way to the other, what their relationship was going to be to each other, and their awareness of how it was ALL for them to experience and have His unconditional love and forgiveness worked into them.

I woke up sobbing and praising God for allowing me to perceive this. I had a similar in content dream also. I was in a room with chairs on both sides of an aisle. I kept walking from the front to the back room, where I had prayed with some people, and was looking out a window in the front each time, expecting something.

The third time I did this walk down the aisle, I noticed the people for the first time. They were all people I knew or were related to. Some of them had done really terrible things to me in the natural. What astonished me, was that just like in the above dream/vision, I could thru the Spirit hear the real motive of their hearts (which is Christ at the core), and with a shock I realized that NONE of them were against me in any way, in fact, just the opposite. They were smiling, and had been cheering me on, aware of the fact that I was the one chosen in my bloodline to overcome as a son of God. Just then the Lord spoke 2 things to me. One was, "Cast not away your confidence." The other was in Jeremiah, and led me into a teaching that connected the two.

I continued to walk to the window and saw what I had apparently been waiting for. It was a huge mound of loaves of bread brought in on a type of wagon, but there were no horses pulling it. The Spirit had brought it. End of dream. So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it  :winkgrin: Blessings to you.......

Well I guess Im just gonna have to get out my ot and start reading again lol

I have really enjoyed everyones thoughts.

The jury is still out for me

kept

QuoteSo, that's my story and I'm sticking to it   

Oh I'll tell ya Card you slay me. That last line got me laughing so hard.

In a serious mode that is an awesome vision Card and I may not have had one like it but it so bear witness with my spirit. Thank you.

Reminded me of that saying that says we will learn to kiss the hands of those that nail us to the cross. Whenever I contemplate this subject I almost always think the "last shall be first and the first last." Did I say I believe in equity in God, when it is all said and done

These are hard things to wrestle with for sure.

Jack

"but if he can just control exactly what everyone thinks or does, why not just make everyone saints? Problem solved."

:cloud9: Actually, I asked Him basically the same question. It was years before I got the answer. We were one with Him from the foundation of the world. We were lowered into the bondage of corruption, NOT WILLINGLY, but He subjected the same in hope. Christ in us, is the hope of glory. He subjected us so that we would eventually WILLINGLY lay down our lives for Him.

Coming here was a sort of death; corruption is death. This life we live now apart from Christ but only in our minds, is a type of death while still in the body. We were given a spirit of forgetfulness so that we couldn't remember our former estate. No greater love has any man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.

That is the God kind of love, He wanted a creature that would love Him enough to be with Him by choice, not by design, no matter what He does, UNCONDITIONALLY, the same way He loves us.

This is the short version, LOL......blessings to you....

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.

There is a place that I can remember in the Bible (I think Job) that says something to the effect that we humans have it all wrong. We rejoice when a baby is born and we weep when a person dies. But, if we truly understood the way of things, we would weep when a baby is born into this life of pain and sorrow and we would rejoice when a person is finally released back to the real life realm. (sorry for the paraphrase, but I cannot remember enough words to find it).

Anyway, the truth remains that God, from His perspective, thinks little of relieving a person from the bondage of their earthly existence to aid in the passing into the Heavenly existence for us all. This is why it was not unjust for God to allow what appears to be cruel ends to some from this life to teach us spiritual truths. It is because our lives here and all of those who lived in the OT are a mere vapor in terms of our whole existence. That which is seen (our natural lives) are temporary and our unseen lives (in the spirit) are eternal. Unless we see it from this perspective, we are seeing it all wrong. The carnal mind will never be subject to the law of God because it only looks at things through the seen world of our earthly existence. This is wrong and upside down from the truth.

Now, that is my story and I am also sticking to it. LOL :ticked:

John

 :cloud9: Jack, glad I could give you a chuckle........I know many a night I spent on here cracking up at your sense of humor when that was usually the only thing in my life at the time that could make me laugh........God knows what we need when we need it, Amen?

And John, that was a good one, too, LOL........we're all just cracked pots for the Lord, aren't we? Well, I consider myself in excellent company...... :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:

I do not call what the OT sometimes says that God did to the humans He created...cruel.

I call it the beast, that is within man... that EXCUSES his own inhuman treatment of other humans... by blaming the God and Father of Jesus Christ... for it.

This picture of an angry and vengeful like god, that Religion paints... IS NOT... the God and Father of Jesus Christ. God has LOVED... beyond our understanding and comprehension, everyone of His children...none of them created for the purpose that they be treated in inhuman ways, so as to teach US...spiritual truths. This is loony tunes. Which parent here is going to sacrifice..kill...rape... one of their own children so that their other children can learn...spiritual truths.

I do not care for Religion... christian jewish islam...or whatever. My UR experience was but a step out of the dehumanizing sickness that Religion is. AND for me...if IT dehumanizes God's GREATEST creation...human beings...then it is Religion, false and in opposition to the Son of Man, Jesus Christ....

I fell in love with a person...Jesus Christ and I became a slave to the book of my religion's teachers. NOT the same thing..at all.

Dean

Dean,

From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you repudiate the evil from your God knowledge.  How about the good?  Would you walk into incorruptible immortality in the next half an hour if you knew how?  So, why don't you know how?  Jesus has opened the door and no man can shut it.  Others have entered into things pertaining to it and God is no repector of persons.

Actually that is the point.  God is no respector of persons.  I can't at this moment, but in sample experiences, obtain the body of resurrected glory.  I can't accuse God of unfairness.  I just don't qualify.

That is no different than qualifying to be slain by Him who both wounds and heals, kills and makes alive.  Each of us walks around with a glory cloud by our head that we can reach up into and a sucking whirlpool at our feet that we can with one step fall into destruction.  Don't imagine you can keep an insipid balance.  God gives spirit things that push us farther than our own self control would let us go.

---James     (Whoopee!  Here I go...)

Jack,

Thank you for your post and I appreciate your kind and gentle spirit...

For me, right now...my being honest about this issue...matters.

James,

I have heard you speak on this board before...while using a language, that for me... I  understood.

However, in your last post to me...I admit, that I do not know the language you are using... I do not understand it... or the post you used it in.

Dean

Dean I know your heart and your honesty of search. God desires mercy and not sacrifice and I won't sacrifice our friendship when at this time we may see some things differently. I read some of Cindi's blog the other day and read where she wrestles with this subject and sees it differently than I. I saw a wonderful anointing on her words as they spoke of honesty of heart ......... sometimes it is not which side of the issue we are on but how we pursue Christ within the issue.

Be blessed brother and know I appreciate your merciful heart.

Jack

 :cloud9: Well, He said that everything they went thru was for our example. I don't see Him as angry and vengeful at all. I see Him as loving, no matter what. So I guess the bottom line is; is man more righteous than God? Blessings to all......

Quote from: Dean on November 08, 2007, 08:07:10 AM
I do not call what the OT sometimes says that God did to the humans He created...cruel.

I call it the beast, that is within man... that EXCUSES his own inhuman treatment of other humans... by blaming the God and Father of Jesus Christ... for it.

This picture of an angry and vengeful like god, that Religion paints... IS NOT... the God and Father of Jesus Christ. God has LOVED... beyond our understanding and comprehension, everyone of His children...none of them created for the purpose that they be treated in inhuman ways, so as to teach US...spiritual truths. This is loony tunes. Which parent here is going to sacrifice..kill...rape... one of their own children so that their other children can learn...spiritual truths.

I do not care for Religion... christian jewish islam...or whatever. My UR experience was but a step out of the dehumanizing sickness that Religion is. AND for me...if IT dehumanizes God's GREATEST creation...human beings...then it is Religion, false and in opposition to the Son of Man, Jesus Christ....

I fell in love with a person...Jesus Christ and I became a slave to the book of my religion's teachers. NOT the same thing..at all.

Dean

:gthumbsup: Very well said Dean. Religion does a good job at convincing and brainwashing people. Its like the trinity doctrine..... when one questions it others quickly have the answer they where taught and convinced to believe and then the simple answer to you is.........."its just a mystery" :mblush:
This is why we must really know why and where we got our beliefs from.... man or God :mshock:

I have a friend who was driving, looking at a map instead of the road, hit and killed a mother and child...... she tells the story that God has done this so she would be changed... So God killed a mother and daughter, taking them away from the family and all loved ones because His desire was more for my friend :msealed:

I am sorry, I don't enjoy the sovereign topic and dont want to bring it there.  :msealed:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 08, 2007, 12:41:37 PM
:cloud9: Well, He said that everything they went thru was for our example.

Did God say it  :dontknow:


Could it be as simple as me saying to my son "Matthew, you can really learn from the past and all your mistakes"  :dontknow: BUT would that mean that I would have wanted all those bad things to happen :dontknow:

QuoteGod is no respector of persons.

I once heard someone break down this scripture and what it really means is that God is no respecter of "MASKS" meaning, the masks we wear. :winkgrin:

QuoteI appreciate everyone's thoughts. I still believe that our problems with what God did to people in the OT and still does today is only judged as cruel or unfeeling or harsh in terms of the carnal mind. If you continue to see this life of 70 years as the important thing and a thing to be preserved, you cannot but help come to that conclusion.

Ok, so I am a bit feisty today :laughing7: :mblush:

So if your life right now became a living hell because God decided to use you as an example and he ordered your family to be killed and your wife raped and had your children sacrificed
would you still feel God as your loving Father? The one that if you ask for bread would not give you a stone or snake :dontknow: The one that would never leave nor forsake you :dontknow: The one that cloths and feeds the lilies of the valley?  The one who is called AGAPE :dontknow:

FAITH comes by KNOWING HIM, HIM being a ROCK and STRONG tower to stand on, HIM being UNCHANGING and the ONLY THING that STAYS......... you take that away and you have one really really shaky walk with God and a God I just dont know :dontknow:

YES, there are things in my life that dont look great but I know they are God... but there is a big difference of what God throws at as to change and refine us then what the OT is showing God as.

 

   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road

  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
love in Him.. .rose
   

Quote from: rosered on November 08, 2007, 01:34:07 PM


   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road

  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
love in Him.. .rose
   

Hi Rosered,  :girlheart:

So would we say that God killed those two innocent people so he could give my friend a spiritual insight? or Prophetic word ?

LT this is a message I have shared often and it brings it home for me.

                         

       The little group stopped along the highway and looked in silent horror, some queasy with disgust, others growing fierce with rage. A short distance off the road, at the top of a gentle rise, a man had been viciously attacked. The grizzly scene glinted red with blood where the hapless victim had been mortally wounded and left to die. It appeared there was nothing more to be done, as already a small crowd had assembled at the site, presumably to administer first aid.

       The travelers stood entranced, caught in the despair of senseless waste. This is the work of Satan, the businessman finally thought aloud.

       No, this evil comes from wicked men, the housewife responded, her eyes transfixed on the scene.

       You don't know that, interjected her girlfriend excitedly. This could be the work of God. It could be that the victim was wicked and this was God's righteous judgment.

       Another stepped in to calm them, But then again if God caused this, maybe he meant it for some higher purpose, unknown to us. He might even somehow use this terrible act for his glory! he offered hopefully.

       Are you crazy? retorted the preacher. We worship a God of love! Our God would never allow this! he stormed, eyes flaring with anger.

       The little group buzzed with concurrence, then slowly turned back to the road and resumed their journey, affirming their denunciation of the crime as they continued on their way. All of them oblivious to the Roman soldiers who were gambling for a cloak.

                         
       Love is the most misunderstood word in existence. To many it means little more than a physical craving. To others it is an intense emotional dependency.

       To some people love is a character trait of God, which is manifest in peace, success, and happiness. It is that special blessing of God that meets their needs and fulfills their wants. Because God loves them, he gives them all the good things of earth to enjoy. To them, anyone who is smiling, or lounging in earthly wealth, is obviously centered in the love of God. For these people, God's love creates a fondness for the things of earth and a coddling affection for all its creatures, in a soupy, mind-numbing bliss.

       But to a few of earth's voyagers, love is something entirely different, something not of this world. It is a wisdom that energizes every action in the universe, whether it appears as good or evil.

       If you had stopped along the road and witnessed the crucifixion of Jesus, would you have recognized it as the supreme love of God? How is the love of God displayed in his slanderous betrayal and murder? Would this be the love of God if it happened to you? (Russell)

Jack :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy

Jack, all I can say is  :thumbsup:
So many things in life are a mystery to me but it is good to know that "Unfailing Love is the ultimate reality behind all other realities" ('An Invitation To Friendship' by Charles Slagle).

I have not been participating on this thread but want you to consider this

Insurance, warranties et al. usually have an act of God and in SA acts of Terrorism as exclusions.  Amazing that Terrorism and Acts of God are equal.

Acts of God

Earthquakes
Tornadoes
Hurricanes or Cyclones
Lightning

Strange that that which cannot be predicted statistically is blamed on God.  Why not nature?

Seems to me if there was a flood, even back then it was an Act of God.  It could have been a comet hitting the ocean causing a catastrophic Tsunami.

So I guess it is all God's fault as He created everything?

How much culture was mixed in with Truth in the OT?  It says there is nothing new under the sun so by that one should assume that as in today's Church mindset of a vengeful wrathful God, back then it was easy to write off the inexplicable to God.

Who knows how much poetic licence was taken when the Hebrews were barbaric to justify it by "God told me/us so?"

We need only look at the history of the church in the last century and how things have gotten twisted to see this is an inherent trait of man to use fear as a governing tactic.  Look at your own President. (USA Only)

The doctrine of madness established by the Greco/Roman pagans fits so nicely into today's justification of evil.

Religion = Bondage
Government = Control

Jesus = Liberty

Personally I do not believe half the atrocities committed in the OT were sanctioned by God, it breaks His fundamental law

Thou shalt not kill.

We all use that to validate UR as God cannot break one of His own laws.

If you read, through the OT there is a governing theme of God allowing Israel to nearly be destroyed barring a remnant.  Think about it.  They, the chosen, how different were they than today's Phrozen Chosen?

Can you not see the parallels that exist?

No, God is not a meanie, He is Love personified, gender non-specific.

To me Man is the problem.  Look at how the woman were not allowed to wear makeup, had to wear certain clothes so that men would not lust after them?  How different is that to the MBO's of the Muslim world (MBO = Moving Black Objects).

Man is born with the instinct to procreate, the smallest thing can arouse him.  So to help man with this "problem" the object of his arousal needs to be diminished or dressed down to be less appealing.

Thank God we are waking up and realising we are but natural.  Yes Jesus spoke about adultery in the mind too.

Look at the woman caught in adultery, we know Jesus forgave her but hello! it takes two to tango, how come the man was not brought to be stoned too?

It sickens me when man debases a woman to a mere sex object.  We look at the OT dudes and their harems of concubines even the famous king David, do you think God approved of this?

There are pearls in the OT but you have to dig for them.  Layer one sucks in most cases but there are deeper hidden meanings we can learn.

Oh well that's me done ranting :talkangry:  :Shoot: :btantrum:

Blessings  :HeartThrob:

Nice post, Seeker.

I guess when not accepting absolute sovereignity, nature taking it's own course does seem to make sense.

That would however mean the OT was completely wrong and it was only an assumption that God was the one responsible for the flood. Which would then make you wonder about what else in the OT was just plain made up by these guys. One could even argue that Satan told them God did it, but I would have nothing to back that one up.  :laughing7:

It would explain why it's not in tune with the NT which obviously is the Word of God (this notion seems to be undisputed anyway).  :cloud9:


One more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be peeved at them.

TY Seeker that post spoke volumes to me

All I need to do is look at fundamentalism today and listen to what comes out of their mouths, and Im talking fundieism in all religions. How they view God. Listen to them, read their nasty signs at soldiers graves and abortion clinics.

its still alive and well and they are still penning 'the scriptures' if you will to show me there is the possiblility that the ot God in many cases was their own carnal minds speaking back to them their version of a God in their own image.

I truly believe though that its quite the miracle that God takes even that, and talks to us about spiritual things. That to me does not validate their God but my God. He can turn anything to good because He is God.

However, I must say that seeing the spiritual has become the most humbling thing to me now. Before it was just with a certain blindness attached. I didnt seem to feel much for the brutality but now I do and now it humbles me greatly for God to speak to me thru something that includes such. And I do still very much love the bible, the entire bible because God chooses to use it in my life but life is certainly more than the bible.

He is a good God - I will say with others here - Ive never known that other God. I think back on my life and honestly I never have. He is simply the 'unknown God' for me. The God I know takes the horror in this life and works with it and morphs lives thru it.

Came back to say Ive never known that God as my Father if you will that is Love. I did go thru a short journey thru fundieism and in that short trip I did meet that other one, at least to me I can see that now.


kept

I guess the word is offense.  If our God who is a good God, allows bad things to happen when he obviously takes note  even when a sparrow falls.................. he cares about the sparrow and knows when it falls.......and then what he  experienced himself,  the most brutal betraying death.........at the hands of our species........then watched as one by one......the diciples were martyred............and family after family were gathered up to be destroyed in the most cruel way.......he had to SEE all that was happening.............so often in my mind more hideous than the OT.....were these not HIS......?????  Why didn't he intervene for his own?   Why  did some of the early believers rush to their deaths choosing to be martyred.......Why didn't Paul stay put, and not go to Jerusalem, it was obviously prophesyed by Agabus, that he was in trouble if he went there.......

Yet they went down to death, in indiscribable ways.........I think I would have  better liked  hearing a record of..........once you were a Christian you were invincible.......superhuman.......no more harm.......supernatural safety...........the end of trouble.

It doesn't seem to compute so many times..........When you would like to die you can't, and when you want to live, you can't..........

So I rest........death cannot be as it seems, even for the mother and child in the sidewalk whose life was shortened, why do we think death the ultimate punishment? To be taken out of this world.??????.........Hardly

It may seem like a mess down here to us, and all our explanations cannot understand how  in a moment the God we have in a box changes and becomes unexplainable...... Shall we ask Job now,.........that he has seen the glorious hope he clung to.............is our Father a good Father?  My very being says, HE IS!

Hennessey 

How come everytime I see your name I want to drink  :Party: :mlaugh: :mlaugh:

Thats beautiful Joian

My very being says He is too

I may not understand it all but I know HE is GOOD and is LOVE

just a snippet here but it speaks volumes to us

1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

kept

Once again Seeker, you expressed my thoughts exactly!  :happyclap: :clapping: :clapping: :cheerleader:

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw, they said to His disciples, Why does your master eat with tax-collectors and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard, He said to them, The ones who are whole do not need a physician, but the ones who are sick.
Mat 9:13  But go and learn what this is, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

edited to pm

:girlheart:

kept

I really liked this article and it helped me personaly to find some solutions to the whole OT dilema: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~moorea/goodness_love_virtue.html

Here's a bit of a shorter article of the same author:


Have we missed the point on the 'Wrath of God'?

THESIS: Rather than being a character trait of God the Father, The 'Wrath of God' is a manifestation of Satan

The First Witness - Numbering Israel
The Second Witness - Saint Paul and St John
The Third Witness -'The day of the Lord'
The Fourth Witness - Logic
The Fifth Witness - Personal knowledge of God
The Sixth and Star Witness - The Cross of Christ

The First Witness - Numbering Israel

The Old Testament identifies the Wrath of God with Satan in 2 Samuel 24 verse1, and 1 Chronicles 21 verse 1.

Again the ANGER OF THE LORD was aroused against Israel, and he moved David against them to say 'Go number Israel and Judah'. 2 Samuel 24:1

Now SATAN stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles 21: 1

Are there other witnesses to support this premise of a link between Satan and the Wrath of God?

The Second Witness - St Paul and St John

Don't St Paul's letters legitimise the 'Wrath of God' in the New Testament......And didn't Paul clearly identify Satan as the enemy?

Well, yes and no.

And this is the interesting point. St Paul truly experienced a major paradigm shift from his Old Testament wiring following his conversion on the Road to Damascus, (more so than most Jerusalem based Christians) but that's not to say his paradigm shift was complete.

For example, Jesus was clearly opposed to cursing, (See Luke 6:28, 9:55 etc) and whilst Paul affirms this principle in Romans 12:14 "Bless those who persecute you: bless, and curse not." He still thought it appropriate to invoke the odd 'anathema' or Curse in his writings.

Furthermore, on reading St Paul, one could be forgiven for thinking that Satan continued to act as a useful Agent or Deputy in God's economy.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    * Destroying the flesh to save the spirit,
    * preventing pride, and
    * teaching heretics not to blaspheme.

Could wrath make more noble claims than this?

If you want to legitimise 'the Wrath of God' based on Paul's witness, I believe you must also accept the legitimacy of Satan too!

St John

St John was once referred to as one of the 'Sons of Thunder', and was rebuked by Jesus for wanting to call down fire on a city who refused to receive Jesus. 'You do not know what spirit you are of!' Luke 9 verse 55

John mentions wrath once in his Gospel:

John 3:36 He that believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

This does not legitimise the 'Wrath of God', quite the opposite. It is merely a statement of present tense fact. Those who reject the Son continue to abide under the hand of Satan.

Those St Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 4:4 - where 'the god of this world' has blinded the minds of those who do not believe

The book of Revelation is another matter. Assuming John wrote Revelation we will see in the next section how our thesis holds up against this second mainstay of 'the Wrath of God' in the New Testament.

( to be continued )

Part 2

The Third Witness -'The day of the Lord'

In the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the 'day of the Lord' is a recurring metaphor. It is a time of wrath and cruel terror. It is the time of the 'Wrath of God'.

The recurring metaphor is accompanied by recurring motifs. These include

    * the coming of Elijah the prophet
    * earthquake
    * the sun becoming dark,
    * the moon becoming like blood, and

    * the stars fading or falling from heaven

Joel 2:10 - 11 The earth quakes before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars diminish their brightness: ... for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible. Who can endure it?

This passage was quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and notable day of the Lord comes

And in Revelation:

Revelation 6:12 -13 And I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind..... 6:17 For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is be able to stand?

Jesus speaks of this 'day' in an interesting manner in Matthew 24 and Mark 13

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Interesting in that He does not go on to say He will come with wrath. He instead speaks of gathering his children.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is now important to give a little more attention to the 'Stars falling from heaven'.

The 'Stars' metaphor is a recurrent theme in scripture as well, Stars refer to Angels, and falling Stars refer to Satan and his Angels.

There is another passage in Revelation repeating the Satan cast out of heaven motif

Revelation 12:7 - 11 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail , nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives to the death.

Interestingly, we see do indeed see Wrath depicted after the stars have fallen and the sun has gone dark, and whose wrath is this?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

The Fourth Witness - Logic

Is God a free agent?

Yes, unless you consider Wrath is a part of his character. The Wrath of God is not a free dynamic in relation to Sin. This 'Character trait' acts totally deterministically and is reactionary in response to sin. Its actions are only 'softened' or 'countered' by other contradictory 'character traits' such as mercy or compassion.

This 'Character Trait' theology gives God something of a split personality, suffering a dichotomy and conflict within himself. God's freedom begins to look a lot like our own familiar human condition, where we constantly struggle with incompatible or contradictory desires and/or needs.

Whilst acknowledging this internal conflict, Christians adhering to the 'Wrath' as a Character Trait theory would nevertheless generally acknowledge that God's love ultimately triumphs over his wrath. Interestingly, this is an important point to address for partial redemption adherents, ie Christians who do not acknowledge God's desire and capacity to reconcile all to himself - and who believe in hell as a place of torment for the eternally damned.

Many Partialist Christians consider it quite possible that more humans will perish in eternal hellfire than will be reconciled to God - and this of course begs the question of whether wrath or love ultimately triumphs in eternity.

Love may triumph for some, where wrath triumphs for others. To rework an Old Testament taunt at King Saul's expense: God has gained his millions, but Satan his tens of millions.

Those who believe Wrath is a character trait of God that continues into eternity have a real problem on another level.

If God is a Trinity and his life is a coinherent and perichoretic flow where each member of the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit live within each other, and share in the eternal and infinite giving of and to each other, what happens to God's wrath in his most fundamental existence? If the love flows in infinite freedom between father Son and Holy Spirit, what happens to the wrath etc.?

Does God really have a part of his Character that he must always hide from His loved ones? To whom can He reveal his wrath if there is no sin in eternity to justify the manifestation of such Wrath?

This is why the early Church Fathers (The Cappadocian Fathers) who formulated the doctrine of the Trinity leaned to Universalism.

For those who understand that the Wrath of God is external to Him, God's redemption of humanity is not the result of an internal struggle. It is a whole-hearted free (non-determined) act within the context of his love. The virtues are all free agencies, and they are all exercised freely.

Those who reject the Augustinian view of the Redemption as partial, know that once God has sorted out the sin issue 'The Wrath of God' ceases to exist. Wrath, Sin, and Death are indeed a doomed Trinity!

A God of Wrath is a temporal God.

The Fifth Witness - Personal knowledge of God

Jonathan Edwards (1703 - 1758) the American Calvinist and Philosopher took the doctrine of 'the wrath of God' as a Character Trait of the Father to its bizarre logical conclusion, and expressed it in his Revival meetings.

I submit that anyone who knows God, would consider the following to be out of step with our knowledge of Jesus Christ (who revealed the Father's heart to us), and our experience of the Holy Spirit.

The following are some excerpts from Edwards' sermon 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God':

        The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the mean time is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If God should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

        The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

        . -- And you, children, who are unconverted, do not you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God, who is now angry with you every day and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?

        ....O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great fumace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell.

        You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty.

OK this might be one man's God, but Jonathan Edwards does not speak for me. What sort of character would such a God be building in his children where they consider it bliss that they spend eternity worshipping God as they watch 'the awful spectacle'.

I do not interpret the passage eye has not seen nor has the ear heard what God has prepared for those who love Him in this way.

What pleasure would you get in seeing a child you once knew suffering such torment, and knowing this torment would continue forever? I submit the enjoyment of such suffering it is not a characteristic I would want to imbue in my children. What sort of worship is it that is inspired by that?

I worship God because He is wholly good, and He did not hold back his own life but He Himself chose to take on the very stuff in question - Wrath.

Worship in heaven will be a celebration of the triumph of the Cross, and an infinite enjoyment seeking out the height and depth of the awesomely wonderful and good nature and character of God.

( to be continued )

Part 3

The Sixth and Star Witness - The Cross of Christ

Returning to the 'Day of the Lord' metaphor, there is another motif we have not yet addressed, and that is the coming of Elijah prior to that day.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Matthew 17:10 - 13 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first? Then Jesus answered them and said, Elijah is truly coming first, and shall restore all things.

But I say unto you, that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of man is also about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.

As Zachariah had prophesied at John the Baptist's birth:

Luke 1:17 And he shall also go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So the inference here is that the day of the Lord is in fact also understood in terms of Jesus first coming, 2000 years ago.

Luke 10:18 And Jesus said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And indeed we do see the 'wrath of God' associated, and I would submit, primarily associated with Jesus first coming.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as You will.

Jesus drank the cup of the 'Wrath of God' for us at the Cross, and in so doing destroyed the power of the Devil.

It was not his Fathers wrath he drank and experienced. His words to the Father after drinking the cup were the anguish of separation from His Father not anguish at the Fathers wrath on him.

So whilst the scriptures go on speaking of the Wrath of God as if were that the Father gets angry, God shows us a totally different picture in the Cross.

As Trinitarian Christians we believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, God the Son. And even as the Father and the Son are one, so if the Father had wrath on Sin, wouldn't the Son also have had the same wrath?

How was the Son's wrath dealt with on the cross?

It is truly God who has taken the wrath upon himself, and not in a schizophrenic way. There was no internal struggle within God where his mercy was crippled by his wrath until he could 'take it all out' on Jesus.

God is eternal. He dwells in a realm beyond time where there is no evil. Evil has never invaded that realm and never will. God invaded the corrupted realm with a view to resolving our corruption through redemption.

If evil never invaded the eternal realm, there could be no consequent corruption or damage to the character and personhood of God, as inferred in the scriptures in the closing paragraphs of this paper.

What we see is only God's separation from the realm corrupted by evil.

We need to gaze at the Cross to see through heaven to our God. He is a God of infinite love. Not a finite love we understand from a non-critical reading of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and the transference of humanity's own internal struggles onto the Holy One.

Like Wrath, all the following negative aspects of the so-called 'Character of God' as outlined in the Old Testament, and sometimes followed by New Testament writers are not part of God, they are not eternal, they are dependent on sin for their very existence:

    * Anger, Fierce wrath, fury, Exodus 32:10, Psalm 88:16 1 Samuel 28:18 2 Chronicles 29:10
    * Cursing, Leviticus 26:15 ff
    * Scorn, derision, Psalm 2:4 Psalm 59:8 Ezekiel 23:32
    * Jealousy, Exodus 20:5 Ezekiel 23:25
    * Revenge, Deuteronomy 32:35
    * Authoring a racist Justice System weighted towards men, and dehumanising slaves Numbers 5 11- 31, Ex 21:21
    * Returning evil for evil, able to be provoked, Deuteronomy 32:21
    * Non-specific and disproportionate retribution, Leviticus 26:18 & 27-28 Exodus 20:5 2 Samuel 24:10, Including on children, Psalm 137:9.Isaiah 13:16-18
    * Genocide, Deuteronomy 2:34
    * Hatred, revulsion, Psalm 78:59 Psalm 106:40
    * Humiliating and shaming, Jeremiah 13:25-26 Jeremiah 23:39-40
    * Utilising violence Deuteronomy 32:42
    * Cruelty, Job 30:21 Isaiah 19:4 Isaiah 13:9 Jeremiah 30:14
    * Dealing in terror and death, Leviticus 26:16 Deuteronomy 32:25.

Surely these are the Stars cast out of heaven. They certainly do more than fade where there is no sin to sustain them.



In conclusion



Some people find it hard to reconcile Jesus who is seen as good, with the Father who is seen as something of an ogre who is acknowledged as good only out of fear. But this is all wrong. God is One, and is Good, and God is only Good.

It was the Father whose heart Jesus displayed when he rescued the woman caught in Adultery from a certain death, a death proscribed by the Law He allegedly wrote. If the Character of the Father as defined by Jesus who said 'He who has seen me has seen the Father' differs from the character of the Old Testament God, remember that prior to the coming of Christ no one had seen God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The only interface between God and our separated realm was 'heaven'. Satan and his Angels were a part of the heaven that all humanity interacted with until the coming of Christ. All humanity includes the Old Testament Heroes and Authors.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs from thistles?

In the same way we can know our God. The Holy Spirit is truly God, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit are all virtues. See Ephesians 5 verse 9. Love Joy Peace Patience Kindness Gentleness.....

God bless you!

Andrew

This got much longer than I thought, but to finish it, here some more to think about by the same author:

God is Good
God is Good. Without an experiential knowledge of the Goodness of God, and specifically God as only Good,  it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God.

This may seem to be an overly harsh assertion, but I believe it to be true.

The Sons of God
The Key is the link between the Sons of God and the Fruit of the Spirit. 

Jesus made the point crystal clear in Mark 18:18 that only God is Good. As son of God, Jesus was not saying that he was not good, rather that goodness is the manifestation or revelation of the true God.  As God's Son he manifested that God is Good.

All creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God.

    Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope 21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22  And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

Travail for birth - Sons are birthed, not made.
Sonship has to do with  rebirth into a spiritual body, a body of goodness for a realm of goodness - from a God who is only good. Being clothed with the Fathers garment.  Wearing the virtues

The sons of God are revealed when the Kingdom comes.  When this realm and we ourselves have our primary manifestation in the goodness of God, the virtues. 

When the seed of who we are is no longer primarily heard in the bondage of corruption, but in the perfect Wisdom of God who fully saturated and filled with the Spirit of God hears the words of God perfectly.

When the fruit of the Spirit of God is no longer just the virtues, but all creation.

Wisdom is justified by her children. (end quote)



 

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 08, 2007, 01:38:49 PM

Quote from: rosered on November 08, 2007, 01:34:07 PM


   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road

  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
love in Him.. .rose
   

Hi Rosered,  :girlheart:

So would we say that God killed those two innocent people so he could give my friend a spiritual insight? or Prophetic word ?

 Hi  Love ,
 no , not to  me  :thumbdown:    my plain spoken  point was , is ,
  people  always take it ,as if,,the Word of God  to themselves  , when we are so immature in[ Spirit ] lacking the mind of Christ  
i will give an example , i felt guilty when my daughter was born so afflicted  as if it was all my fault  and i was being punnished by God for all my sins in the past ,
 I now realize what a stupid thought i nourished in thinking that , because   many were affected by  that  result not just me  :mblush:
just as many suffered at the loss , of the two innocent  while she gained ?
  doesnt  make any sense to me thinking that way  now ........ the only differnce being she took it as a sign  God was using her  mistake as turning  it into a good thing and i took it as a sign God was angry with me , making everyone suffer for my sins

  hope this makes some kind of sense to you ?
 
love rose  
 sorry if i cannot  type  my thoughts  right
 

 ps thank you for posting this
JACK   by AndrewMoore! :girlheart:
am going to read more thoughly  love rose i have and love it  thanks again bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow floyd Ive started reading now at that site and its really confirming some things

thanks for posting the link again

kept

 :cloud9: So many directions I want to go.......To start, I guess, the first five books, the Torah, is so exacting, that it's like a computer program, literally. I'm sure all of you have heard of the Bible codes. They are for real. And it's encoded in other ways too, there's a triplicate chain code in there; part of which the Lord opened my eyes to when He first led me to study the Hebrew so many years ago. So for me, that takes the "man did this or that" out of the equation.

Aside from that, He has made His sovereignty life in me in several ways. I'm going to share one of them later in this. Revelation is not given so we can glory in the mystery being revealed. It's given to change the nature of the one it's given to, probably literally on a molecular level, but assuredly on a spiritual one, and as HEAVEN rules in the affairs of men, once given something in the Spirit, the natural man has few options, but to prepare for the "fallout" of the "bomb" that was just dropped. Because that revelation given is soon to be presented with the exact circumstances of fire needed to bake that bread in us, that we might feed the nations with it. It is never allowed to sit and ferment; we must bake it immediately and get out of Egypt (our fleshly comfortable ways) with it NOW. The alternative is, we stay enslaved to the Pharoah of our carnal minds, forever building bricks of carnal reasonings.

This is a very personal one for me, but I'm going to share it. For those of you with weak stomach's, you'll want to stop reading now. My middle son was running wild; more wild than I knew because he lived with his dad at age 17 on, or in an apt. his dad owns. I pray for my children at night before I close my eyes. One night, when he was 16, I had a dream/vision as real as if I was there. I saw what I knew to be a particular hospital, knew by the Spirit my son or sons were in it and that it was bad, very bad, maybe to death. I saw a policeman talking to the nurse, and what was said was so bad He kept it from me. I jolted awake, hit the floor sobbing and begging for mercy for my sons. The Lord spoke to me then, and said, "Would you die for them?" I thought about it for a few seconds, stunned at the question, and said, "Yes, Lord I would."

As soon as it was day, I called my middle son, and told him the dream I had had, and that I knew it was God and it was a warning, that whatever he was starting into, had better stop. It didn't, in part I found out later, because his dad was participating and even encouraging. The next 3 years I did die, as I watched him go from bad to worse. I was not allowed to speak anything but unconditional love and build up the hidden Christ in him. I felt and was ridiculed for not being a "proper parent", or I should have done such and such. I heard, "What kind of a Christian are you, anyway?"

After one incident, he was taken to a juvenile facility in another town. It helped for about 3 weeks. The whole time, no one but dad knew what was wrong with him, because he hid it from everyone else. He was already a full-blown alcoholic, drinking vodka every day before he went to school, and that was when he went. Dad had started this on visitation weekends, drinking shots with him before he went out partying, at age 14. But I didn't  find this out, until after the tragedy of my life happened.

Dad's girlfriend threw my sons out, 2 months after dad moved the boys in with her, in another town. It was in January and they had no money and no where to go. They were 17 and 19; the youngest had just moved up there. The oldest took him with him and went to his girlfriend's parent's house and they let them stay and sleep on the floor. My youngest felt like a 3rd wheel after about 2 weeks, and hit the streets. All of this was kept from me. He didn't want mom to know; he was ashamed and broken by the fact dad had let her throw them out in the street in January with nothing.

He thought the dad that always ignored him or put him down, finally cared about him. What dad really cared about was not paying child support, and further hurting me. He ended up in one party house after another. My daughter who was 13 at the time, finally went to see her dad one weekend, after months of refusing. When I came home from work that week, she was hysterical, telling me they didn't know where my middle son was, and the whole nine yards, including that they had told her not to tell me. I called my husband and we went looking for him. We looked for 3 days. The third day, I saw him walking down the street. I ran to him and told him to get in the truck, you're coming home with me. He didn't say a word, he just got in. He didn't speak for 3 days. Then he started sobbing. I still wasn't told he was an alcoholic.

He lived with me for another 2 years, still hiding problems, but seeming better in other ways, but crying at night over what his dad had done to him. He decided to go to community college and work with his brother in the family business, and that necessitated a move back to the town dad lives in. I knew it would not be a good thing, but he was 19 and I couldn't talk him out of it. He moved into an apartment with his girlfriend that was owned by dad. He started messing up more. A young drug dealer moved into the neighborhood. My son was only living there less than 5 months before the police asked my X to sign a trespassing warrant against the dealer so they would have a reason to pick him up; he was dealing in the parking lot of the business building my son lived above. Dad did it and left for Ohio with my oldest son. The police picked up the dealer; he bonded out an hour later and went looking for my X.

He found my son, walking back from walking a friend home. He confronted him, wanting his dad's phone number and address. My son refused to give it to him. It was the last thing he said for 3 days. The dealer motioned to his buddies, who were hiding between the two buildings. They came out and hit my son so hard with steel pipes in the skull, the first blow was heard by a woman walking a block and a half away. They continued to beat his skull and stomp him with boots on, even after he went into a coma and was in convulsions according to one witness.

He was thrown in a police car after the cop slapped him repeatedly in the face trying to wake him up, and taken to the hospital. The nurse told the policeman (someone had called my oldest son and told him so he was there too) that my son was dying and would probably not make it to be life-lined, according to the doctor. After being life-lined, the neurosurgeon at the Indy hospital said he had 4 different types of brain damage, and gave us 15 minutes to decide whether to let him operate on him and maybe he dies on the table, or he would be dead anyway, in 24 hours. We chose the surgery. The doctors told us, that even if he made it thru the next 72 hours, he would be a vegetable. He was 20 years old. Five days after this happened, still in shock, I asked the Lord, "Why didn't you warn me?" He brought back the dream of 3 years before. He had had me to "die" to self, die to being a "proper" parent, not allowed to "beat him up' with any condemnation under the guise of "disipline", to build up the Christ in my son for what lay ahead.

I shared the miraculous recovery my son made on the old board after 6 months of 8 hours a day therapy. He is 85 to 90% recovered, to God be all the glory. Everyone at the hospital, from the doctors to the billing dept. were all talking about him, and all telling him he is a walking miracle. The real miracle though, is that when he still thought he was 9 years old, the first intelligible words out of his mouth only 3 weeks after brain surgery was, "Mom, I need to go to church." He went as soon as he got out of the hospital, and my daughter and I went with him. The next week, I felt I was not to go, and just he and his girlfriend went. He came home telling me he had gone down to the altar and asked the Lord to save him.

Now the heartbreak is, his dad is controlling things again, he's moved in with girlfriend again in another city, and I don't know what my son's future is given that variable. God does, and whatever the outcome, I know my son is in His hands, whether in the body or out of it. But I know he read his bible for 6 months every day, and I know he was saved. And I believe without what God had allowed to happen to him, he might have died and not been. And since He has made it life in me, and I have seen the other side, and I know there is a temporary "hell", it matters to me a great deal that my son had the experience that was apparently necessary for him to be broken enough to come to my LOVING Father.

I have no bitterness whatsoever towards Him; I have seen firsthand that what the enemy meant for evil God meant for good. And that scripture doesn't mean, that God stands back "helplessly" and has no part in what is happening. It means HIS MOTIVE is different, even if the circumstances used to bring about the change, are the same. Satan is HIS servant. As Job said, (paraphrasing) shall I take the good from God and not the evil? The fact is, He brings you to a place where you can see it's ALL good.

God set up things according to a plan and a pattern, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing that man would make a mess of things, and do everything possible wrong. The law of sowing and reaping stands; we are our own worst enemies. But I also know that my God is loving and merciful, and His judgments are righteous and just, especially since I can't see the end from the beginning like He does. THIS is the God that I know. Blessings to all........

Floyd

This is awesome stuff!!!! My goodness this is really really shining a strong light on some scripture for me, especially the Elohim thing, as what he is saying is what I knew but needed to see someone else say it like that! WOW

I thank you so much, gonna be spending some time in this writing and giving it the meditation it deserves

how did you find this website?

by the way Im reading off the website, dont know if Im reading what you posted here yet or not lol but it sure is awesome

kept

Hey Cardinal,

I think there's a lot of reasons why God being absolutely sovereign and controlling everything simply doesn't make sense.

The second paragraph of your post reminded me of the part in Exodus where God seems to directly influence the Pharaoh and his servants' will so they won't let Israel go, which would suggest that the Pharaoh and his servants acted on their own free will before, right?  :dontknow:

Quote from: Kept on November 08, 2007, 06:33:38 PM
This is awesome stuff!!!! My goodness this is really really shining a strong light on some scripture for me, especially the Elohim thing, as what he is saying is what I knew but needed to see someone else say it like that! WOW

I'm gonna have to see for myself what you're so excited about! Seems like it's a lot of text to plow through though.  :dbook:

SLN Wrote

QuoteOne more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be peeved at them.

Yes, but we see in the OT that he was peeved at them and how many times do you read in the Word "IF YOU WILL" or "NOW I KNOW"

:friendstu:

SNL the thing that really speaks to me strongly is that Ive really seen this 'law administrated by the angels, elohim' in my spirit before but he ties it in with a whole new light. Check it out.

He leaves the good God intact completely and yet shows why this stuff is 'imbetween' this wonderful God we know but not a part of His character.

good stuff

kept

Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 08, 2007, 07:04:58 PM
SLN Wrote

QuoteOne more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be peeved at them.

Yes, but we see in the OT that he was peeved at them and how many times do you read in the Word "IF YOU WILL" or "NOW I KNOW"

:friendstu:

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

If he is in control of our will and everything else though, he would have already known what Abraham thought of him. This very much hints that Abraham was still free to do what he pleases, possibly choosing to keep Isaac, whether God commanded it or not.

Quote from: Hennessey on November 08, 2007, 01:55:28 PM
LT this is a message I have shared often and it brings it home for me.

                         

Agape Love

Yes, this was very good :thumbsup:

QuoteThis 'Character Trait' theology gives God something of a split personality, suffering a dichotomy and conflict within himself. God's freedom begins to look a lot like our own familiar human condition, where we constantly struggle with incompatible or contradictory desires and/or needs.

Whilst acknowledging this internal conflict, Christians adhering to the 'Wrath' as a Character Trait theory would nevertheless generally acknowledge that God's love ultimately triumphs over his wrath. Interestingly, this is an important point to address for partial redemption adherents, ie Christians who do not acknowledge God's desire and capacity to reconcile all to himself - and who believe in hell as a place of torment for the eternally damned.

WOW...

The good people said...God gave us their land...their houses...their vineyards...the food in their kitchen and the wine on their shelves...So we TOOK it from them...and killed them all. Men women and children. Because God gave it to US and besides that ...they were all BAD people anyways. Not a people worth saving.

Dean

From what I've read on the site Floyd posted so far, this particular part stuck with me:

Quote
Imagine you are a soldier in 'God's army' invading Canaan under the leadership of Joshua. You are sacking and burning Jericho and your Commander points you towards one particular building. You run to it, sword at the ready. The door is barred so you kick it in. Inside you find a pre-school, perhaps a Canaanite girl of eighteen, and a dozen or so 4 year olds in her charge. With a swift thrust of your blade, the older girl is dead, and now the 4 year olds are all huddled in a corner looking at you with well founded fear, their eyes pleading for mercy. (see Joshua 6 20, 21)

I think the author is correct in that commanding such a thing can't be of God. If God commanded me to do such a thing, I would have to refuse... would you do it, Cardinal (or anyone else really)? (sorry for going there, just trying to make a point  :mshock:)

Although I try to stay open to other points of view, it's feeling a lot like the eternal hell issue being justified with "We just don't understand God's ways, but it's for the better". But on the inside I know eternal hell isn't righteous or loving.  Which is obviously why I'm here now. :p

Wow, I had time to read through most of these posts and I was touched by your message Rose.  I had heard something a long ago about your situation and since that time you have always held a special place in my heart. It does seem we must suffer much to see God as you do.

Card I can only imagine the pain and you certainly bless me with your revelations as I see much the same now days.

And Joian wow, one to copy and how we have talked and cried over so much of this which we share here. I have a belief in a completely sovereign God and that belief came with the greatest of pain through terrifying brokenness but yet I found peace from all regret in knowing even my sins were fore-ordained that I might see my total futility and my overwhelming need for a Saviour and Lord to walk in me.

I have truly come to the point where I can say with Job, "though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."

As Card said, "it is all for Good" ......... 
......I would add, even our death which actually may be the best part of our earthly sojourn when all is said and done.

Should He call I am ready to die ........... but not before a sniffer full of Hennessy cognac and a toast to LT and the rest of the Tent gang   :laughing7:

Bless all you guys and I surely understand how very heart wrenching this subject can be, 

Jack

 :cloud9: Yes, Jack, and that was one of the very scriptures He spoke to me to let me know what was being worked in me. That and where Job I think said, it would have been better if he were never born. He brought me to that reality, not out of self-pity, but a deep revelation. All part of the dying to self process.......blessings to you...... :HeartThrob:

I stumbled across this precious poem and thought how perfect for this thread.

      Blessed is he whose faith is not offended,
      When all around his way
      The power of God is working out deliverance
      For others day by day;

      Though in some prison drear his own soul languish,
      Till life itself be spent,
      Yet still can trust his Father's love and purpose,
      And rest therein content.

      Blessed is he, who through long years of suffering,
      Cut off from active toil,
      Still shares by prayer and praise the work of others,
      And thus "divides the spoil."

      Blessed are thou, O child of God, who sufferest,
      And canst not understand
      The reason for thy pain, yet gladly leavest
      Thy life in His blest Hand.

      Yea, blessed art thou whose faith is "not offended"
      By trials unexplained,
      By mysteries unsolved, past understanding,
      Until the goal is gained.

                                    Freda Hanbury Allen  


how unexplainable His love that dwells within us
make you want to cry doesn't it ........

Jack,

Awesome Posts.... :thumbsup:

Dean

Bless you Dean. You will always be one of the precious ones to Joian and myself. Even get tears to typing this ......

Quote from: Hennessey on November 09, 2007, 03:09:07 AM
but yet I found peace from all regret in knowing even my sins were fore-ordained that I might see my total futility and my overwhelming need for a Saviour and Lord to walk in me.

The OT shows the futility of the flesh, anger, revenge etc. The NT shows the absolute power and perfection of the Spirit, peace, forgiveness etc.

The OT shows the nature of fallen man. The NT shows the nature of perfect God.

God ordained all of it to occur - the good the bad the ugly.

He enables the opposite of His nature to exist within time.

<< 2 Corinthians 4:17 >>
"For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison"

<< 1 Peter 1:24 >>
For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF"

Rightly dividing what's happening, why, and to whom is the key here.

<< 1 Corinthians 15:49 >>
"Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly".

Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy. :mshock:

  - b

P.S. You people are the most amazing people I've ever encountered
:Sparkletooth:

Hi Kept, glad the writing blessed you. I can't really remember how I actually found the website, but it was years ago. Also talked to the guy via e-mail because there were some things I didn't agree with. However, for me it was the same thing with the 'elohim' issue. Father showed that to me at the beginning of my walk but I forgot about it after going through all the denominations. So when I read this article I rememberd.

One thing I would like to point out is that still- even though the law was given to frustrate us in our legal perception of life- Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law prophetically (not legaly, for man was never intended to live in this kind of mindset). So just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted to lead to ultimate Good (our Father being All in All) so the law was given through the ministration of angels for the same goal. Without all its bondages and all the cruelty- that I believe did not
come directly from Him Who is called only Good- we would never know the freedom we experience now in Jesus Christ.

Because I see Father as Holy Soverign Unfailing Love I don't  really see a contradiction between His Soverignty and His Goodness. While I would agree with Jack that even our sins are forordained (that's why the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world) they are still our sins. That's the same with angelic beings for me. When Paul talks about nothing being able to seperate us from the Love of our Father as it is revealed in Jesus Christ I can see all this things he mentions as coming from His hands and Him being responsible for their actions and very existence on one level, but on another level its also important to say that this things don't come forth from His nature that is only Light and Goodness.

Rather they are evil because they have been brought forth out of His Light to return there again, in the meantime going through the experience of knowing good and evil (the lack or perversion of Goodness). Even the god of this worldsystem and his deceptive ways in the end play into Father's purpose just as the law- ordained by angels- with all its cruelty and brutality did. But in the end its only the Son Who knows the Father and reveals His true character which is Good and only Good.

QuoteWhile I would agree with Jack that even our sins are forordained (that's why the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world) they are still our sins.

Floyd I see our sins belonging to the old man that is blind to his condition. Only by the sovereign action of the Spirit shining it's light upon our soul do we ever see the darkness. The soul cannot see itself nor it's condition ..... this I know. We can see the path of our past destruction/sowing and reaping but that is not a place to dwell as we must always have our eyes upon Him to ascend.

Dwelling on sin does not rid it ........ only with our vision of Him does it fall off.

Self introspection is the biggest crock out there and amounts to rose colored glasses in a pitch black room.

Just thought I would clarify the point I made and how I see it working.

Be blessed,

Jack

Hi Jack, I completley agree with you on that one. I find this a bit of a hard topic to be honest because so many mysteries are involved and our human language is very often inadequate to express them. Its totaly wrong of course to focus on our sins instead on Him. Also didn't mean it to look like I contradicted you. Sometimes when one gets into the whole Soverignty issue some (not you) express themselves in a way that could one almost make thinking that it is Christ in us doing the evil stuff. No one is actually saying that of course and I found what you wrote in the last post a much better explanation than what I had to say.

Praise God that we don't have this discussions in german cause than it would get really complicated. Did you know that the german langage enables you to write one sentence over four pages of a book without making a full stop? And the sentence still makes sense (if one has the braincapacity). That actually happend with the german philosopher Hegel. To much carnal mind if you ask me.  :icon_jokercolor:

 :cloud9: Byron said, "Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy." Would you mind elaborating on that, B.? Blessings to you........

 :2c:

That God intended that imperfect humans...would treat other humans, inhumanly... IS evident...because it HAPPENS.

That humans ...even the "chosen" humans would blame God for their sick and inhuman acts towards other humans...IS evidenced...because it also HAPPENS.

I get to discover that which is in agreement with LOVE [God] within me...and that which is in agreement with FEAR.... the BEAST [carnal mind] within me.

The Jews stealing other peoples homes and killing their men, women and children is only understood to be acts of HUMANS treating other humans...HUMANLY...within a RELIGIOUS context. For me...I had to jump through hoops of denial and dishonesty to agree with this. To embrace this...I had to dismiss my understanding of the God who I have met and who is LOVE... 

This is just my story...

Dean

Quote from: reFORMer on November 07, 2007, 09:57:25 PM
The part of the story that gets left out is the reason why God condemned the original inhabitants of the land; and, that later on, when His own turned against Him, doing the same things and even worse, He removed them as well.

What they were doing that was so bad was funereal/fertility celebrations where the whole family had sex with each other, grandma's corpse and animals, usually dogs, maybe goats included.  There were blood sacrifices, often their own children slain, all to worship their gods.  Because of the resultant deeply ingrained mental problems and actual diseases, they were all to be removed from God's sight.  He also didn't want His people to be defiled by such abominations.  By leaving some of the original inhabitants of the land they later learned to to the same things, even worse, leading to their own destruction and removal.  Their Asherim groves were groups of poles that were phallic symbols to goddess/fertility worship that surrounded the altars for human sacrifice.  The remains of these sacrifices were mixed into the mortar used for entryways and foundations in their houses.  The worship of Baal became so popular that God had reserved to himself but 7000 men (and their families) out of all the land in the days of Elijah.  All the rest had "kissed the calf," which involved a male temple prostitute devoted to Baal wearing a Calf's head suit on his upper body. The Jews and Israelites even attributed burning their firstborn children to God

I'm quoting the excerpt above to ask if your next door neighbors on the left were in with a cult in town who practiced what is described what would you want done about it?  When subsequently the vacant house on the right side of yours was sold to members of the same cult would you be letting your couple of children play with the more than half dozen of these cultic neighbors's kids?  Realize this was before Jesus was manifested.  Many people into sexual perversions today are extremely antagonistic to even hearing mentioned they can be saved.  They've managed to make it "hate speech," punished by years in prison and fines.  This is with abundant testimonials of the grace of God manifestly delivering many from homosexual lifestyles.  Though such sinful behavior is but a very watered down pale echo of the Canaanites, they're doing what they can step by step to see to it Christians are eliminated from society, at least as far as this issue is concerned.   Don't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

Quote......if your next door neighbors on the left were in with a cult in town who practiced what is described what would you want done about it?  When subsequently the vacant house on the right side of yours was sold to members of the same cult would you be letting your couple of children play with the more than half dozen of these cultic neighbors's kids?

Probably not....but neither would I want to see them run through with a sword...including the kids and watch their houses burned to the ground.

QuoteDon't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

I think the attitude of many Christians against gays and those involved in "sexual perversion" is not anything near a live and let live policy either and is a watered down version of the Phelps clan...and their Westboro Baptist Church.  Granted they are an extreme and sickening case...but aren't they really just preaching a doctrine many Christians really believe...including the belief of many that gays go to hell simply by virtue of being gay? 

QuoteMany people into sexual perversions today are extremely antagonistic to even hearing mentioned they can be saved.

Perhaps because they hear the subtle (yet unmistakable) voice of Shirley Phelps behind the message...which is most definitely not live and let live. 

Cindi....

I get that the WAR is within each of us...and not what Religion teaches...that it is always US against THEM. I think the mental health jargon calls that ...paranoia.

I consider your example to be...very extreme...is it an attempt to dehumanize these broken people... in order to justify unGodly acts towards them?

Perhaps an equaly IMO...extreme response, would be for me to teach my children to kill their BAD neighbors... including the children and to take their homes as our own...and to tell them that God had told us to do just that...cause they were real BAD.

In Religion...   BAD people = FREE houses...how cool is that.

Is it the goodness of God that leads men to repentance or killing them all? I'm leaning towards the goodness side on this deal.

Dean

(How far away from misogyny are we on this thread?  I seem to be on a defense of the Hebrew Scripture as being of the real God.)

Part of our problem is the bit about the Canaanites was in a made for TV movie last week, or spread across several movies in the last few years, or something like that.  So altered by our surrounding culture, it's nigh unto impossible to get God's system of values when we refuse His word.  There is moral law that is as sure as the law of gravity.  We don't go around pinning up proclamations for rocks to fall.  That isn't what makes gravity work.  Use the law against stealing for an example.  No jail.  No hindrance of fruitfulness or restitution like cutting off hands.  God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves.  They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned.  Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.)  If a man's tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution.  That is God's sanctions for thieves.  Reap what you sow.  Do you realize this works even if there's no man to enforce it?  This type of knowledge can help you understand what is going on in your life if your keep loosing things by whatever means and how to amend it.  The way of the thief is not the path of blessing which ultimately is to enjoy the continual presences of God.  The influence in the writings He gave us is to walk with God.

What is state law for thieves, or the kind of things the Canaanites were into, is not the same as an individual claiming God is telling him to enforce questionable sanctions on others, even if they woodenly seemed to synchronize with parts of the Torah.  This seems part of my readers misunderstanding of my several posts in defense of Hebrew Scripture.  It could take several lifetimes to influence culture to the extent that the system of values in God's law could become state law; but, if anyone proposes to influence society for Christ, He has already given us writings that point out the right direction to pursue.

When people walk with God they are under no law.  We can't say we don't know what the answer is.  "The law is for the lawless" is God's very relevant word considering the 20th Century was the darkest yet.  135 million killed in peace time by their friends and neighbors, in addition to all those killed in the wars as well as the intentionally produced famines.  I just heard Heidi Baker say God told her, "My son died so no one would ever again not have enough to eat."  I believe it!  What's the problem?  Why are you not enjoying a long life as, "days of heaven on earth," (Dt 11:21) as God promised?  It is because you do not meet the conditions for that blessing that is His to bestow.

Intimacy with God puts in us a heart of tender pity for those trapped in destructrive lifestyles with an understanding of what's wrong and the way out.  There is a false love that claims no one should ever be disciplined, that the wicked should have equal blessing and authority with the righteous, and in fact, that wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  That's the path to reprobation.  To suffer if need be for obeying the truth is the other path, wherein nothing matters but love for God and one another.  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;" but, "Mature love casts out all fear."

---James

Good word.

Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2007, 11:24:51 PMDon't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

This is involvment from Christ's perspective.

  blessings,
   Byron

Hey Kept!  John Fraysse here... Hope you and your family are doing well!  :HeartThrob:

IMHO, All Bibles need Warning Labels, for the Biblical God created evil and allows or commands, rape, genocide, abortion, child abuse, birth defects, slavery, murder, the subjugation of women and promotes bigotry and hate crimes against homosexuals and those of other "faiths" or religious views. 

I fear that Religious Fascism is on the rise throughout the world. Good thing the founding fathers had the good sense to separate Church and State in America! 

Grace & Peace, John

QuoteIntimacy with God puts in us a heart of tender pity for those trapped in destructrive lifestyles with an understanding of what's wrong and the way out.  There is a false love that claims no one should ever be disciplined, that the wicked should have equal blessing and authority with the righteous, and in fact, that wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  That's the path to reprobation.  To suffer if need be for obeying the truth is the other path, wherein nothing matters but love for God and one another.  "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;" but, "Mature love casts out all fear."

To me...the atrocities in the OT....and crediting them to the heart of God is an example of claiming wrong things are really right, evil good and good evil.  The Holy Spirit will lead us...all of us....wicked and righteous alike into all truth.  And isn't it his job to convict of sin?

"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment."

As much as I can I try not to judge others...the log in the eye principle...judge not lest you be judged.....and rather try to follow the example set by Jesus...and to follow his directive in the verse Byron posted.....

Quote"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

By NO means do I have it down and I sometimes find my vision impared by the log in my own eye.  We see things very differently. I have no doubt that even if my path is off course, he has the where with all to right it.

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 10, 2007, 09:53:19 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on November 09, 2007, 11:24:51 PMDon't you understand there is a real war going on?  It's not going away just because you think it's bad and don't want to be involved.  That war in ancient days was the same war!  There is still no live and let live policy from their side, even if you are for peace.

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you"

This is involvment from Christ's perspective.

  blessings,
   Byron

Hi Byron...is that you in the avatar???

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Quote from: Cindi on November 10, 2007, 12:14:50 PM
Hi Byron...is that you in the avatar???

Cindi.....
Mercy Not Sacrifice (http://mercynotsacrifice.blogspot.com/)

Yep Cindi - that's my shiny bald head. The other day at 'church' a man had this one year old baby on his shoulders who was just learning to talk - the little guy started pointing down at my head and saying "Light! Light!" :mshock:  :laughing7:
- b

 :cloud9: Out of the mouths of babes......my bet is that was not just natural light the little one was seeing...... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 09, 2007, 02:09:54 PM
:cloud9: Byron said, "Paul saw things that were not lawful to utter.

Remain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy." Would you mind elaborating on that, B.? Blessings to you........

Even as they were "unspeakable words" in so much as Paul did not even attempt to explain what he saw and heard - I'm more inclined to think that he 'couldn't' rather that 'shouldn't. Couldn't - because as Jesus said "you cannot bear them now" (too heavy). The fact that we're here asking/wondering with this intensity tells me it's not too far away. Until we have enough character foundation to 'bear' the weight of what is said, and rightly divide what is said, we won't be told.

Have you ever had a thought so deep that you fell into it?

The next step will take us into into a train of thought that trancends anything we've ever thought about anything.

In Him we live and move and have our being (Paul said this to pagans).

  blessings,
  - byron

 :cloud9: I totally agree with that; until the foundation is there, you won't be told, because the weight of it would destroy instead of build up. That's why He said He would not put more upon us than what we could bear. I used to say only half-jokingly, "Lord, someone has LIED to you, because I'M not that strong!" Blessings to you....... :thumbsup:

Quote from: jfraysse on November 10, 2007, 11:01:58 AM
Hey Kept!  John Fraysse here... Hope you and your family are doing well!  :HeartThrob:

IMHO, All Bibles need Warning Labels, for the Biblical God created evil and allows or commands, rape, genocide, abortion, child abuse, birth defects, slavery, murder, the subjugation of women and promotes bigotry and hate crimes against homosexuals and those of other "faiths" or religious views. 

I fear that Religious Fascism is on the rise throughout the world. Good thing the founding fathers had the good sense to separate Church and State in America! 

Grace & Peace, John

Hi John

Yep in the hands of the carnal minded fundamentalist the bible is a very dangerous book imo
Just check out the Godhatesfags.com website to see how dangerous it is wow

but in the hands of the spiritually minded that has set their minds on things above it can spring forth life within even from the parts that we would deem the unlovely parts
The body has those unlovely parts that are deemed less honorable and the bible does too.

kept

Hi Kept:  Man, that site is VILE!  I, like you, am weary of ignoring the "Evil Bible" verses, I fact, I can no longer do it.  How are you coming with your atheist/agnostic friends.  I find that I have much in common with them.  Many have been so wounded by Christian Dogmas and behaviors.  I personally have not, but I empathize with their pain.  Some are unwounded but could never get passed the contradictions and impossible theological problems.  Some, who want to be theists, are pretty "new-agey". 

Don't mean to pry, just interested.  I perceive that you and many here have kind and loving hearts – such a blessing!

Grace and Peace, John :HeartThrob:

Hi John

I tell ya I have grown so much lately. Its been so good for me to step outside my circle and get with others that believe different than me. But I feel for me this was ordained and that is why its so profitable for me right now.

I am going to spend some time writing on my blog and that is where I will share my heart about my experiances with them.

John so nice to get to know you better and your heart for others shines bright!

kept

QuoteIn Him we live and move and have our being (Paul said this to pagans).

firstborn888 awesome stmt and so right on!

love it

:girlheart:

kept

Quote from: jfraysse on November 10, 2007, 05:34:54 PM
Some, who want to be theists, are pretty "new-agey".

This is exactly what happens when the 'words' of truth are heard by someone without discernment. The phrase "All things are of God" means one thing to the spiritual man, and something completely different to the carnal man.

I'm not getting much feedback, which makes me think I'm not communicationg well. Is anybody making sense of my comments? :dontknow:

- b   

Hi Byron,

QuoteRemain at this step as long as you feel it is needed, because the next step is a doozy.

You must realize that when you speak as with so many here, we do get so much from what you say.............and you do communicate on so many levels....I believe we all take something away to ponder.............

I connect the dots with what so much of what you are saying..........but you Byron are going somewhere I want to look into. I wait with expectancy for your next post.  You certainly are not talking to the air my brother, continue on..........please......Say it in every different way the spirit may give to communicate it to us...........

Whew, to this whole thread........

God Bless Y'all,
Joian

Yes, absolutely "Whew!!!!"

Enjoying reading these in this thread........Listening!

And about the "a-thesist" ..........I think what we have in common is that we have
NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH, NO FAITH IN MAN, AND IT BETTER BE GOD TO CONVINCE
ME! HA I guess that's the way the good Lord made us! 

I have never found that board, but I do understand that "man" is "man" and GOD is
GOD, and that "all flesh" is as GRASS! 

When the sun "SON" comes upon it, it withers!

A-thesist or Christian!

Kept wrote:

QuoteI am going to spend some time writing on my blog and that is where I will share my heart about my experiances with them

Hey Kept:  I will look for this.  Hope you all have a great Sunday!

Grace & Peace, John