Misogyny in the old testament.

[Kept]

TY Seeker that post spoke volumes to me

All I need to do is look at fundamentalism today and listen to what comes out of their mouths, and Im talking fundieism in all religions. How they view God. Listen to them, read their nasty signs at soldiers graves and abortion clinics.

its still alive and well and they are still penning 'the scriptures' if you will to show me there is the possiblility that the ot God in many cases was their own carnal minds speaking back to them their version of a God in their own image.

I truly believe though that its quite the miracle that God takes even that, and talks to us about spiritual things. That to me does not validate their God but my God. He can turn anything to good because He is God.

However, I must say that seeing the spiritual has become the most humbling thing to me now. Before it was just with a certain blindness attached. I didnt seem to feel much for the brutality but now I do and now it humbles me greatly for God to speak to me thru something that includes such. And I do still very much love the bible, the entire bible because God chooses to use it in my life but life is certainly more than the bible.

He is a good God - I will say with others here - Ive never known that other God. I think back on my life and honestly I never have. He is simply the 'unknown God' for me. The God I know takes the horror in this life and works with it and morphs lives thru it.

Came back to say Ive never known that God as my Father if you will that is Love. I did go thru a short journey thru fundieism and in that short trip I did meet that other one, at least to me I can see that now.


kept

[joian]

I guess the word is offense.  If our God who is a good God, allows bad things to happen when he obviously takes note  even when a sparrow falls.................. he cares about the sparrow and knows when it falls.......and then what he  experienced himself,  the most brutal betraying death.........at the hands of our species........then watched as one by one......the diciples were martyred............and family after family were gathered up to be destroyed in the most cruel way.......he had to SEE all that was happening.............so often in my mind more hideous than the OT.....were these not HIS......?????  Why didn't he intervene for his own?   Why  did some of the early believers rush to their deaths choosing to be martyred.......Why didn't Paul stay put, and not go to Jerusalem, it was obviously prophesyed by Agabus, that he was in trouble if he went there.......

Yet they went down to death, in indiscribable ways.........I think I would have  better liked  hearing a record of..........once you were a Christian you were invincible.......superhuman.......no more harm.......supernatural safety...........the end of trouble.

It doesn't seem to compute so many times..........When you would like to die you can't, and when you want to live, you can't..........

So I rest........death cannot be as it seems, even for the mother and child in the sidewalk whose life was shortened, why do we think death the ultimate punishment? To be taken out of this world.??????.........Hardly

It may seem like a mess down here to us, and all our explanations cannot understand how  in a moment the God we have in a box changes and becomes unexplainable...... Shall we ask Job now,.........that he has seen the glorious hope he clung to.............is our Father a good Father?  My very being says, HE IS!

[Loveroftruth]

Hennessey 

How come everytime I see your name I want to drink  :Party: :mlaugh: :mlaugh:

[Kept]

Thats beautiful Joian

My very being says He is too

I may not understand it all but I know HE is GOOD and is LOVE

just a snippet here but it speaks volumes to us

1Co 13:4  Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5  Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there are languages, they shall cease; whether there is knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

kept

[Loveroftruth]

Once again Seeker, you expressed my thoughts exactly!  :happyclap: :clapping: :clapping: :cheerleader:

[SeekerSA]

Mat 9:11  And when the Pharisees saw, they said to His disciples, Why does your master eat with tax-collectors and sinners?
Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard, He said to them, The ones who are whole do not need a physician, but the ones who are sick.
Mat 9:13  But go and learn what this is, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

[Kept]

edited to pm

:girlheart:

kept

[AbbasChild]

I really liked this article and it helped me personaly to find some solutions to the whole OT dilema: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~moorea/goodness_love_virtue.html

Here's a bit of a shorter article of the same author:


Have we missed the point on the 'Wrath of God'?

THESIS: Rather than being a character trait of God the Father, The 'Wrath of God' is a manifestation of Satan

The First Witness - Numbering Israel
The Second Witness - Saint Paul and St John
The Third Witness -'The day of the Lord'
The Fourth Witness - Logic
The Fifth Witness - Personal knowledge of God
The Sixth and Star Witness - The Cross of Christ

The First Witness - Numbering Israel

The Old Testament identifies the Wrath of God with Satan in 2 Samuel 24 verse1, and 1 Chronicles 21 verse 1.

Again the ANGER OF THE LORD was aroused against Israel, and he moved David against them to say 'Go number Israel and Judah'. 2 Samuel 24:1

Now SATAN stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles 21: 1

Are there other witnesses to support this premise of a link between Satan and the Wrath of God?

The Second Witness - St Paul and St John

Don't St Paul's letters legitimise the 'Wrath of God' in the New Testament......And didn't Paul clearly identify Satan as the enemy?

Well, yes and no.

And this is the interesting point. St Paul truly experienced a major paradigm shift from his Old Testament wiring following his conversion on the Road to Damascus, (more so than most Jerusalem based Christians) but that's not to say his paradigm shift was complete.

For example, Jesus was clearly opposed to cursing, (See Luke 6:28, 9:55 etc) and whilst Paul affirms this principle in Romans 12:14 "Bless those who persecute you: bless, and curse not." He still thought it appropriate to invoke the odd 'anathema' or Curse in his writings.

Furthermore, on reading St Paul, one could be forgiven for thinking that Satan continued to act as a useful Agent or Deputy in God's economy.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    * Destroying the flesh to save the spirit,
    * preventing pride, and
    * teaching heretics not to blaspheme.

Could wrath make more noble claims than this?

If you want to legitimise 'the Wrath of God' based on Paul's witness, I believe you must also accept the legitimacy of Satan too!

St John

St John was once referred to as one of the 'Sons of Thunder', and was rebuked by Jesus for wanting to call down fire on a city who refused to receive Jesus. 'You do not know what spirit you are of!' Luke 9 verse 55

John mentions wrath once in his Gospel:

John 3:36 He that believes in the Son has everlasting life: and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

This does not legitimise the 'Wrath of God', quite the opposite. It is merely a statement of present tense fact. Those who reject the Son continue to abide under the hand of Satan.

Those St Paul refers to in 2 Corinthians 4:4 - where 'the god of this world' has blinded the minds of those who do not believe

The book of Revelation is another matter. Assuming John wrote Revelation we will see in the next section how our thesis holds up against this second mainstay of 'the Wrath of God' in the New Testament.

( to be continued )

[AbbasChild]

Part 2

The Third Witness -'The day of the Lord'

In the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the 'day of the Lord' is a recurring metaphor. It is a time of wrath and cruel terror. It is the time of the 'Wrath of God'.

The recurring metaphor is accompanied by recurring motifs. These include

    * the coming of Elijah the prophet
    * earthquake
    * the sun becoming dark,
    * the moon becoming like blood, and

    * the stars fading or falling from heaven

Joel 2:10 - 11 The earth quakes before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars diminish their brightness: ... for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible. Who can endure it?

This passage was quoted by Peter in Acts 2:20:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and notable day of the Lord comes

And in Revelation:

Revelation 6:12 -13 And I looked when he opened the sixth seal, and, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of made of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind..... 6:17 For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is be able to stand?

Jesus speaks of this 'day' in an interesting manner in Matthew 24 and Mark 13

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 13:25 And the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Interesting in that He does not go on to say He will come with wrath. He instead speaks of gathering his children.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It is now important to give a little more attention to the 'Stars falling from heaven'.

The 'Stars' metaphor is a recurrent theme in scripture as well, Stars refer to Angels, and falling Stars refer to Satan and his Angels.

There is another passage in Revelation repeating the Satan cast out of heaven motif

Revelation 12:7 - 11 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail , nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives to the death.

Interestingly, we see do indeed see Wrath depicted after the stars have fallen and the sun has gone dark, and whose wrath is this?

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

The Fourth Witness - Logic

Is God a free agent?

Yes, unless you consider Wrath is a part of his character. The Wrath of God is not a free dynamic in relation to Sin. This 'Character trait' acts totally deterministically and is reactionary in response to sin. Its actions are only 'softened' or 'countered' by other contradictory 'character traits' such as mercy or compassion.

This 'Character Trait' theology gives God something of a split personality, suffering a dichotomy and conflict within himself. God's freedom begins to look a lot like our own familiar human condition, where we constantly struggle with incompatible or contradictory desires and/or needs.

Whilst acknowledging this internal conflict, Christians adhering to the 'Wrath' as a Character Trait theory would nevertheless generally acknowledge that God's love ultimately triumphs over his wrath. Interestingly, this is an important point to address for partial redemption adherents, ie Christians who do not acknowledge God's desire and capacity to reconcile all to himself - and who believe in hell as a place of torment for the eternally damned.

Many Partialist Christians consider it quite possible that more humans will perish in eternal hellfire than will be reconciled to God - and this of course begs the question of whether wrath or love ultimately triumphs in eternity.

Love may triumph for some, where wrath triumphs for others. To rework an Old Testament taunt at King Saul's expense: God has gained his millions, but Satan his tens of millions.

Those who believe Wrath is a character trait of God that continues into eternity have a real problem on another level.

If God is a Trinity and his life is a coinherent and perichoretic flow where each member of the Godhead, Father Son and Holy Spirit live within each other, and share in the eternal and infinite giving of and to each other, what happens to God's wrath in his most fundamental existence? If the love flows in infinite freedom between father Son and Holy Spirit, what happens to the wrath etc.?

Does God really have a part of his Character that he must always hide from His loved ones? To whom can He reveal his wrath if there is no sin in eternity to justify the manifestation of such Wrath?

This is why the early Church Fathers (The Cappadocian Fathers) who formulated the doctrine of the Trinity leaned to Universalism.

For those who understand that the Wrath of God is external to Him, God's redemption of humanity is not the result of an internal struggle. It is a whole-hearted free (non-determined) act within the context of his love. The virtues are all free agencies, and they are all exercised freely.

Those who reject the Augustinian view of the Redemption as partial, know that once God has sorted out the sin issue 'The Wrath of God' ceases to exist. Wrath, Sin, and Death are indeed a doomed Trinity!

A God of Wrath is a temporal God.

The Fifth Witness - Personal knowledge of God

Jonathan Edwards (1703 - 1758) the American Calvinist and Philosopher took the doctrine of 'the wrath of God' as a Character Trait of the Father to its bizarre logical conclusion, and expressed it in his Revival meetings.

I submit that anyone who knows God, would consider the following to be out of step with our knowledge of Jesus Christ (who revealed the Father's heart to us), and our experience of the Holy Spirit.

The following are some excerpts from Edwards' sermon 'Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God':

        The wrath of God is like great waters that are dammed for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the longer the stream is stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course, when once it is let loose. It is true, that judgment against your evil works has not been executed hitherto; the floods of God's vengeance have been withheld; but your guilt in the mean time is constantly increasing, and you are every day treasuring up more wrath; the waters are constantly rising, and waxing more and more mighty; and there is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, that holds the waters back, that are unwilling to be stopped, and press hard to go forward. If God should only withdraw his hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God, would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power; and if your strength were ten thousand times greater than it is, yea, ten thousand times greater than the strength of the stoutest, sturdiest devil in hell, it would be nothing to withstand or endure it.

        The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment. It is to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to hell the last night; that you was suffered to awake again in this world, after you closed your eyes to sleep. And there is no other reason to be given, why you have not dropped into hell since you arose in the morning, but that God's hand has held you up. There is no other reason to be given why you have not gone to hell, since you have sat here in the house of God, provoking his pure eyes by your sinful wicked manner of attending his solemn worship. Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a reason why you do not this very moment drop down into hell.

        . -- And you, children, who are unconverted, do not you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God, who is now angry with you every day and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings?

        ....O sinner! Consider the fearful danger you are in: it is a great fumace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath, that you are held over in the hand of that God, whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you, as against many of the damned in hell.

        You shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and when you shall be in this state of suffering, the glorious inhabitants of heaven shall go forth and look on the awful spectacle, that they may see what the wrath and fierceness of the Almighty is; and when they have seen it, they will fall down and adore that great power and majesty.

OK this might be one man's God, but Jonathan Edwards does not speak for me. What sort of character would such a God be building in his children where they consider it bliss that they spend eternity worshipping God as they watch 'the awful spectacle'.

I do not interpret the passage eye has not seen nor has the ear heard what God has prepared for those who love Him in this way.

What pleasure would you get in seeing a child you once knew suffering such torment, and knowing this torment would continue forever? I submit the enjoyment of such suffering it is not a characteristic I would want to imbue in my children. What sort of worship is it that is inspired by that?

I worship God because He is wholly good, and He did not hold back his own life but He Himself chose to take on the very stuff in question - Wrath.

Worship in heaven will be a celebration of the triumph of the Cross, and an infinite enjoyment seeking out the height and depth of the awesomely wonderful and good nature and character of God.

( to be continued )

[AbbasChild]

Part 3

The Sixth and Star Witness - The Cross of Christ

Returning to the 'Day of the Lord' metaphor, there is another motif we have not yet addressed, and that is the coming of Elijah prior to that day.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Matthew 17:10 - 13 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first? Then Jesus answered them and said, Elijah is truly coming first, and shall restore all things.

But I say unto you, that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of man is also about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptist.

As Zachariah had prophesied at John the Baptist's birth:

Luke 1:17 And he shall also go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So the inference here is that the day of the Lord is in fact also understood in terms of Jesus first coming, 2000 years ago.

Luke 10:18 And Jesus said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

And indeed we do see the 'wrath of God' associated, and I would submit, primarily associated with Jesus first coming.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as You will.

Jesus drank the cup of the 'Wrath of God' for us at the Cross, and in so doing destroyed the power of the Devil.

It was not his Fathers wrath he drank and experienced. His words to the Father after drinking the cup were the anguish of separation from His Father not anguish at the Fathers wrath on him.

So whilst the scriptures go on speaking of the Wrath of God as if were that the Father gets angry, God shows us a totally different picture in the Cross.

As Trinitarian Christians we believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God, God the Son. And even as the Father and the Son are one, so if the Father had wrath on Sin, wouldn't the Son also have had the same wrath?

How was the Son's wrath dealt with on the cross?

It is truly God who has taken the wrath upon himself, and not in a schizophrenic way. There was no internal struggle within God where his mercy was crippled by his wrath until he could 'take it all out' on Jesus.

God is eternal. He dwells in a realm beyond time where there is no evil. Evil has never invaded that realm and never will. God invaded the corrupted realm with a view to resolving our corruption through redemption.

If evil never invaded the eternal realm, there could be no consequent corruption or damage to the character and personhood of God, as inferred in the scriptures in the closing paragraphs of this paper.

What we see is only God's separation from the realm corrupted by evil.

We need to gaze at the Cross to see through heaven to our God. He is a God of infinite love. Not a finite love we understand from a non-critical reading of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures and the transference of humanity's own internal struggles onto the Holy One.

Like Wrath, all the following negative aspects of the so-called 'Character of God' as outlined in the Old Testament, and sometimes followed by New Testament writers are not part of God, they are not eternal, they are dependent on sin for their very existence:

    * Anger, Fierce wrath, fury, Exodus 32:10, Psalm 88:16 1 Samuel 28:18 2 Chronicles 29:10
    * Cursing, Leviticus 26:15 ff
    * Scorn, derision, Psalm 2:4 Psalm 59:8 Ezekiel 23:32
    * Jealousy, Exodus 20:5 Ezekiel 23:25
    * Revenge, Deuteronomy 32:35
    * Authoring a racist Justice System weighted towards men, and dehumanising slaves Numbers 5 11- 31, Ex 21:21
    * Returning evil for evil, able to be provoked, Deuteronomy 32:21
    * Non-specific and disproportionate retribution, Leviticus 26:18 & 27-28 Exodus 20:5 2 Samuel 24:10, Including on children, Psalm 137:9.Isaiah 13:16-18
    * Genocide, Deuteronomy 2:34
    * Hatred, revulsion, Psalm 78:59 Psalm 106:40
    * Humiliating and shaming, Jeremiah 13:25-26 Jeremiah 23:39-40
    * Utilising violence Deuteronomy 32:42
    * Cruelty, Job 30:21 Isaiah 19:4 Isaiah 13:9 Jeremiah 30:14
    * Dealing in terror and death, Leviticus 26:16 Deuteronomy 32:25.

Surely these are the Stars cast out of heaven. They certainly do more than fade where there is no sin to sustain them.



In conclusion



Some people find it hard to reconcile Jesus who is seen as good, with the Father who is seen as something of an ogre who is acknowledged as good only out of fear. But this is all wrong. God is One, and is Good, and God is only Good.

It was the Father whose heart Jesus displayed when he rescued the woman caught in Adultery from a certain death, a death proscribed by the Law He allegedly wrote. If the Character of the Father as defined by Jesus who said 'He who has seen me has seen the Father' differs from the character of the Old Testament God, remember that prior to the coming of Christ no one had seen God.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The only interface between God and our separated realm was 'heaven'. Satan and his Angels were a part of the heaven that all humanity interacted with until the coming of Christ. All humanity includes the Old Testament Heroes and Authors.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs from thistles?

In the same way we can know our God. The Holy Spirit is truly God, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit are all virtues. See Ephesians 5 verse 9. Love Joy Peace Patience Kindness Gentleness.....

God bless you!

Andrew

[AbbasChild]

This got much longer than I thought, but to finish it, here some more to think about by the same author:

God is Good
God is Good. Without an experiential knowledge of the Goodness of God, and specifically God as only Good,  it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God.

This may seem to be an overly harsh assertion, but I believe it to be true.

The Sons of God
The Key is the link between the Sons of God and the Fruit of the Spirit. 

Jesus made the point crystal clear in Mark 18:18 that only God is Good. As son of God, Jesus was not saying that he was not good, rather that goodness is the manifestation or revelation of the true God.  As God's Son he manifested that God is Good.

All creation groans for the revealing of the sons of God.

    Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope 21  that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 8:22  And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.

Travail for birth - Sons are birthed, not made.
Sonship has to do with  rebirth into a spiritual body, a body of goodness for a realm of goodness - from a God who is only good. Being clothed with the Fathers garment.  Wearing the virtues

The sons of God are revealed when the Kingdom comes.  When this realm and we ourselves have our primary manifestation in the goodness of God, the virtues. 

When the seed of who we are is no longer primarily heard in the bondage of corruption, but in the perfect Wisdom of God who fully saturated and filled with the Spirit of God hears the words of God perfectly.

When the fruit of the Spirit of God is no longer just the virtues, but all creation.

Wisdom is justified by her children. (end quote)



 

[rosered]

   thanks be to God , i cannot  begin to  tell  you how much said in this thread   as blessed me :)  God love you all ..........
  Lovetruth , i also read your last post here  and  was thinking   that  this woman , was  reading the  map went off the  road and killed two innocent  ones ?
  to me the lesson was ,  her trying to  find and please God , was looking in the wrong place ! focusing on the map and NOT  the road

  the allegory being  focusing [guiding ]on the written word[ easily  misinterpeted  by the  wrong mind ] and NOT THE LIVING WORD [HOLY SPIRIT& mind of Christ]]  maybe ?
love in Him.. .rose
   

Hi Rosered,  :girlheart:

So would we say that God killed those two innocent people so he could give my friend a spiritual insight? or Prophetic word ?

 Hi  Love ,
 no , not to  me  :thumbdown:    my plain spoken  point was , is ,
  people  always take it ,as if,,the Word of God  to themselves  , when we are so immature in[ Spirit ] lacking the mind of Christ  
i will give an example , i felt guilty when my daughter was born so afflicted  as if it was all my fault  and i was being punnished by God for all my sins in the past ,
 I now realize what a stupid thought i nourished in thinking that , because   many were affected by  that  result not just me  :mblush:
just as many suffered at the loss , of the two innocent  while she gained ?
  doesnt  make any sense to me thinking that way  now ........ the only differnce being she took it as a sign  God was using her  mistake as turning  it into a good thing and i took it as a sign God was angry with me , making everyone suffer for my sins

  hope this makes some kind of sense to you ?
 
love rose  
 sorry if i cannot  type  my thoughts  right
 

[rosered]

 ps thank you for posting this
JACK   by AndrewMoore! :girlheart:
am going to read more thoughly  love rose i have and love it  thanks again bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kept]

Wow floyd Ive started reading now at that site and its really confirming some things

thanks for posting the link again

kept

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: So many directions I want to go.......To start, I guess, the first five books, the Torah, is so exacting, that it's like a computer program, literally. I'm sure all of you have heard of the Bible codes. They are for real. And it's encoded in other ways too, there's a triplicate chain code in there; part of which the Lord opened my eyes to when He first led me to study the Hebrew so many years ago. So for me, that takes the "man did this or that" out of the equation.

Aside from that, He has made His sovereignty life in me in several ways. I'm going to share one of them later in this. Revelation is not given so we can glory in the mystery being revealed. It's given to change the nature of the one it's given to, probably literally on a molecular level, but assuredly on a spiritual one, and as HEAVEN rules in the affairs of men, once given something in the Spirit, the natural man has few options, but to prepare for the "fallout" of the "bomb" that was just dropped. Because that revelation given is soon to be presented with the exact circumstances of fire needed to bake that bread in us, that we might feed the nations with it. It is never allowed to sit and ferment; we must bake it immediately and get out of Egypt (our fleshly comfortable ways) with it NOW. The alternative is, we stay enslaved to the Pharoah of our carnal minds, forever building bricks of carnal reasonings.

This is a very personal one for me, but I'm going to share it. For those of you with weak stomach's, you'll want to stop reading now. My middle son was running wild; more wild than I knew because he lived with his dad at age 17 on, or in an apt. his dad owns. I pray for my children at night before I close my eyes. One night, when he was 16, I had a dream/vision as real as if I was there. I saw what I knew to be a particular hospital, knew by the Spirit my son or sons were in it and that it was bad, very bad, maybe to death. I saw a policeman talking to the nurse, and what was said was so bad He kept it from me. I jolted awake, hit the floor sobbing and begging for mercy for my sons. The Lord spoke to me then, and said, "Would you die for them?" I thought about it for a few seconds, stunned at the question, and said, "Yes, Lord I would."

As soon as it was day, I called my middle son, and told him the dream I had had, and that I knew it was God and it was a warning, that whatever he was starting into, had better stop. It didn't, in part I found out later, because his dad was participating and even encouraging. The next 3 years I did die, as I watched him go from bad to worse. I was not allowed to speak anything but unconditional love and build up the hidden Christ in him. I felt and was ridiculed for not being a "proper parent", or I should have done such and such. I heard, "What kind of a Christian are you, anyway?"

After one incident, he was taken to a juvenile facility in another town. It helped for about 3 weeks. The whole time, no one but dad knew what was wrong with him, because he hid it from everyone else. He was already a full-blown alcoholic, drinking vodka every day before he went to school, and that was when he went. Dad had started this on visitation weekends, drinking shots with him before he went out partying, at age 14. But I didn't  find this out, until after the tragedy of my life happened.

Dad's girlfriend threw my sons out, 2 months after dad moved the boys in with her, in another town. It was in January and they had no money and no where to go. They were 17 and 19; the youngest had just moved up there. The oldest took him with him and went to his girlfriend's parent's house and they let them stay and sleep on the floor. My youngest felt like a 3rd wheel after about 2 weeks, and hit the streets. All of this was kept from me. He didn't want mom to know; he was ashamed and broken by the fact dad had let her throw them out in the street in January with nothing.

He thought the dad that always ignored him or put him down, finally cared about him. What dad really cared about was not paying child support, and further hurting me. He ended up in one party house after another. My daughter who was 13 at the time, finally went to see her dad one weekend, after months of refusing. When I came home from work that week, she was hysterical, telling me they didn't know where my middle son was, and the whole nine yards, including that they had told her not to tell me. I called my husband and we went looking for him. We looked for 3 days. The third day, I saw him walking down the street. I ran to him and told him to get in the truck, you're coming home with me. He didn't say a word, he just got in. He didn't speak for 3 days. Then he started sobbing. I still wasn't told he was an alcoholic.

He lived with me for another 2 years, still hiding problems, but seeming better in other ways, but crying at night over what his dad had done to him. He decided to go to community college and work with his brother in the family business, and that necessitated a move back to the town dad lives in. I knew it would not be a good thing, but he was 19 and I couldn't talk him out of it. He moved into an apartment with his girlfriend that was owned by dad. He started messing up more. A young drug dealer moved into the neighborhood. My son was only living there less than 5 months before the police asked my X to sign a trespassing warrant against the dealer so they would have a reason to pick him up; he was dealing in the parking lot of the business building my son lived above. Dad did it and left for Ohio with my oldest son. The police picked up the dealer; he bonded out an hour later and went looking for my X.

He found my son, walking back from walking a friend home. He confronted him, wanting his dad's phone number and address. My son refused to give it to him. It was the last thing he said for 3 days. The dealer motioned to his buddies, who were hiding between the two buildings. They came out and hit my son so hard with steel pipes in the skull, the first blow was heard by a woman walking a block and a half away. They continued to beat his skull and stomp him with boots on, even after he went into a coma and was in convulsions according to one witness.

He was thrown in a police car after the cop slapped him repeatedly in the face trying to wake him up, and taken to the hospital. The nurse told the policeman (someone had called my oldest son and told him so he was there too) that my son was dying and would probably not make it to be life-lined, according to the doctor. After being life-lined, the neurosurgeon at the Indy hospital said he had 4 different types of brain damage, and gave us 15 minutes to decide whether to let him operate on him and maybe he dies on the table, or he would be dead anyway, in 24 hours. We chose the surgery. The doctors told us, that even if he made it thru the next 72 hours, he would be a vegetable. He was 20 years old. Five days after this happened, still in shock, I asked the Lord, "Why didn't you warn me?" He brought back the dream of 3 years before. He had had me to "die" to self, die to being a "proper" parent, not allowed to "beat him up' with any condemnation under the guise of "disipline", to build up the Christ in my son for what lay ahead.

I shared the miraculous recovery my son made on the old board after 6 months of 8 hours a day therapy. He is 85 to 90% recovered, to God be all the glory. Everyone at the hospital, from the doctors to the billing dept. were all talking about him, and all telling him he is a walking miracle. The real miracle though, is that when he still thought he was 9 years old, the first intelligible words out of his mouth only 3 weeks after brain surgery was, "Mom, I need to go to church." He went as soon as he got out of the hospital, and my daughter and I went with him. The next week, I felt I was not to go, and just he and his girlfriend went. He came home telling me he had gone down to the altar and asked the Lord to save him.

Now the heartbreak is, his dad is controlling things again, he's moved in with girlfriend again in another city, and I don't know what my son's future is given that variable. God does, and whatever the outcome, I know my son is in His hands, whether in the body or out of it. But I know he read his bible for 6 months every day, and I know he was saved. And I believe without what God had allowed to happen to him, he might have died and not been. And since He has made it life in me, and I have seen the other side, and I know there is a temporary "hell", it matters to me a great deal that my son had the experience that was apparently necessary for him to be broken enough to come to my LOVING Father.

I have no bitterness whatsoever towards Him; I have seen firsthand that what the enemy meant for evil God meant for good. And that scripture doesn't mean, that God stands back "helplessly" and has no part in what is happening. It means HIS MOTIVE is different, even if the circumstances used to bring about the change, are the same. Satan is HIS servant. As Job said, (paraphrasing) shall I take the good from God and not the evil? The fact is, He brings you to a place where you can see it's ALL good.

God set up things according to a plan and a pattern, knowing the end from the beginning, knowing that man would make a mess of things, and do everything possible wrong. The law of sowing and reaping stands; we are our own worst enemies. But I also know that my God is loving and merciful, and His judgments are righteous and just, especially since I can't see the end from the beginning like He does. THIS is the God that I know. Blessings to all........

[Kept]

Floyd

This is awesome stuff!!!! My goodness this is really really shining a strong light on some scripture for me, especially the Elohim thing, as what he is saying is what I knew but needed to see someone else say it like that! WOW

I thank you so much, gonna be spending some time in this writing and giving it the meditation it deserves

how did you find this website?

by the way Im reading off the website, dont know if Im reading what you posted here yet or not lol but it sure is awesome

kept

[SLN]

Hey Cardinal,

I think there's a lot of reasons why God being absolutely sovereign and controlling everything simply doesn't make sense.

The second paragraph of your post reminded me of the part in Exodus where God seems to directly influence the Pharaoh and his servants' will so they won't let Israel go, which would suggest that the Pharaoh and his servants acted on their own free will before, right?  :dontknow:

This is awesome stuff!!!! My goodness this is really really shining a strong light on some scripture for me, especially the Elohim thing, as what he is saying is what I knew but needed to see someone else say it like that! WOW

I'm gonna have to see for myself what you're so excited about! Seems like it's a lot of text to plow through though.  :dbook:

[Loveroftruth]

SLN Wrote

One more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be peeved at them.

Yes, but we see in the OT that he was peeved at them and how many times do you read in the Word "IF YOU WILL" or "NOW I KNOW"

:friendstu:

[Kept]

SNL the thing that really speaks to me strongly is that Ive really seen this 'law administrated by the angels, elohim' in my spirit before but he ties it in with a whole new light. Check it out.

He leaves the good God intact completely and yet shows why this stuff is 'imbetween' this wonderful God we know but not a part of His character.

good stuff

kept

[SLN]

SLN Wrote

One more quick note on God being absolutely sovereign: It would mean he made people do stuff so he could then be peeved at them.

Yes, but we see in the OT that he was peeved at them and how many times do you read in the Word "IF YOU WILL" or "NOW I KNOW"

:friendstu:

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

If he is in control of our will and everything else though, he would have already known what Abraham thought of him. This very much hints that Abraham was still free to do what he pleases, possibly choosing to keep Isaac, whether God commanded it or not.

[Loveroftruth]

LT this is a message I have shared often and it brings it home for me.

                         

Agape Love

Yes, this was very good :thumbsup:

[Dean]

This 'Character Trait' theology gives God something of a split personality, suffering a dichotomy and conflict within himself. God's freedom begins to look a lot like our own familiar human condition, where we constantly struggle with incompatible or contradictory desires and/or needs.

Whilst acknowledging this internal conflict, Christians adhering to the 'Wrath' as a Character Trait theory would nevertheless generally acknowledge that God's love ultimately triumphs over his wrath. Interestingly, this is an important point to address for partial redemption adherents, ie Christians who do not acknowledge God's desire and capacity to reconcile all to himself - and who believe in hell as a place of torment for the eternally damned.

WOW...

The good people said...God gave us their land...their houses...their vineyards...the food in their kitchen and the wine on their shelves...So we TOOK it from them...and killed them all. Men women and children. Because God gave it to US and besides that ...they were all BAD people anyways. Not a people worth saving.

Dean

[SLN]

From what I've read on the site Floyd posted so far, this particular part stuck with me:

Imagine you are a soldier in 'God's army' invading Canaan under the leadership of Joshua. You are sacking and burning Jericho and your Commander points you towards one particular building. You run to it, sword at the ready. The door is barred so you kick it in. Inside you find a pre-school, perhaps a Canaanite girl of eighteen, and a dozen or so 4 year olds in her charge. With a swift thrust of your blade, the older girl is dead, and now the 4 year olds are all huddled in a corner looking at you with well founded fear, their eyes pleading for mercy. (see Joshua 6 20, 21)

I think the author is correct in that commanding such a thing can't be of God. If God commanded me to do such a thing, I would have to refuse... would you do it, Cardinal (or anyone else really)? (sorry for going there, just trying to make a point  :mshock:)

Although I try to stay open to other points of view, it's feeling a lot like the eternal hell issue being justified with "We just don't understand God's ways, but it's for the better". But on the inside I know eternal hell isn't righteous or loving.  Which is obviously why I'm here now. :p

[Hennessey]

Wow, I had time to read through most of these posts and I was touched by your message Rose.  I had heard something a long ago about your situation and since that time you have always held a special place in my heart. It does seem we must suffer much to see God as you do.

Card I can only imagine the pain and you certainly bless me with your revelations as I see much the same now days.

And Joian wow, one to copy and how we have talked and cried over so much of this which we share here. I have a belief in a completely sovereign God and that belief came with the greatest of pain through terrifying brokenness but yet I found peace from all regret in knowing even my sins were fore-ordained that I might see my total futility and my overwhelming need for a Saviour and Lord to walk in me.

I have truly come to the point where I can say with Job, "though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."

As Card said, "it is all for Good" ......... 
......I would add, even our death which actually may be the best part of our earthly sojourn when all is said and done.

Should He call I am ready to die ........... but not before a sniffer full of Hennessy cognac and a toast to LT and the rest of the Tent gang   :laughing7:

Bless all you guys and I surely understand how very heart wrenching this subject can be, 

Jack

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, Jack, and that was one of the very scriptures He spoke to me to let me know what was being worked in me. That and where Job I think said, it would have been better if he were never born. He brought me to that reality, not out of self-pity, but a deep revelation. All part of the dying to self process.......blessings to you...... :HeartThrob: