Unusual theory on universal salvation

[Johann]

I said it's an unusual theory, but one that holds a lot of water. Just off hand, I can think of many Bible verses that appear to mesh with that framework of understanding. Check it out...

http://www.hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html

[Beloved Servant]

Would you outline it for me?
I find the page hard to read.

[shawn]

I think he got many things right especially in the first third of his writings.  But, then he went off on tangents that are very difficult for me to accept.

Such as

But, people who don't find holiness in this life "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thes 1:9. Notice he does not say destruction of life or torture, just from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power - that is the eternal punishment. There is the Kingdom of Heaven, and the heaven after hell, but a heaven isolated from the presence and glory of the Lord. Stephen Crisp, an eminent early Quaker minister said: "The outward court of the temple was for representing the church of God in general, from the particular; the outward court was not measured, that the gentiles might come in; the unbaptized [did not have the baptism of death by fire, resulting in a circumcised heart] people, who were never regenerated, they might come so far as the outward court, but this did not entitle them to the privileges of the house of God, nor to any worship or sacrifice that was accepted upon God's altar."

So there are two heavens...and one is without God?  That is certainly quite the theory but that doesn't sit right with me.  Then it gets very legalistic.  It's like he states the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is if we become sinless.  Those who have any ounce of sin will be in hell and this second tiered heaven.

So, basically almost all if not all of us are in bad shape.  What I missed in this entire thought process was the blood of Christ.  If the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is through us becoming 100% pure then why did Jesus need to die for our sins?  I would need to re-read and study before I could completely dismiss this but at first glance it doesn't read true to me.

It doesn't mean there isn't things in here worth reading but much of it doesn't sit right.

[Beloved Servant]

Hey thanks!

And yeah, I understand what you mean.
I've come across things like this before that are beautiful on the outside but rotten to the core.

Just more perversion of the truth.

[Johann]

Would you outline it for me?
I find the page hard to read.

Um, those that don't achieve complete freedom from sin in this life, which will be the vast majority of humanity, will have their souls destroyed, but their spirits will be saved. They will worship God in spirit from the "outer court of the Temple" (corresponding to the outer court of the temple under the OC where the Gentiles were allowed to enter). Those who have their souls saved will enter the Kingdom and be Sons of God and will reign with Jesus and God in the inner sanctum, where they will rule over those in the outer court, though the "ruling over" will actually be more like humbly "serving under".

Though it isn't a part of the theology of that site, I think the point could legitimately be made that this would be an intermediate stage to the objective of God being "all in all".

[Beloved Servant]

I understand what your saying.
Again, more misaligned truth.
The Mormans have an interesting twist to Scriptures and this, if I recall correctly, has a similar shade to it.

[Johann]

So there are two heavens...and one is without God?  That is certainly quite the theory but that doesn't sit right with me.  Then it gets very legalistic.  It's like he states the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is if we become sinless.  Those who have any ounce of sin will be in hell and this second tiered heaven.

No, no, the "second Heaven" isn't without God, it is just less of a fulfillment/immersion in God than those in "first Heaven. It will be paradise there, but just not as paradaisical as first Heaven.

So, basically almost all if not all of us are in bad shape.  What I missed in this entire thought process was the blood of Christ.  If the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is through us becoming 100% pure then why did Jesus need to die for our sins?  I would need to re-read and study before I could completely dismiss this but at first glance it doesn't read true to me.

It doesn't mean there isn't things in here worth reading but much of it doesn't sit right.

In a nutshell...

Jesus truly died to save us from our sins. His blood opened the way for us to become like He was, which is sin-free and deified. To become like Jesus, our old Adam has to die, which is our earthly sin nature and obstinate will. When we repent of ALL idols and lay down our Adamic will, then Jesus enters and slays our Adam for us, and dwells in our hearts, enabling us to live sin-free, so that it isn't us living, but He living through us. Grace is as much forgiveness of sins as overcoming of sins.

And faith produces works, but they are His works coming through us, not ours.



   

[Lefein]

God shall be all in all.

Where God is all, in all of a person, and in all people in all places; everywhere becomes, and is perfectly perfect paradise.  There really can't be any place that is well..."a not as good paradise as the other", that could only mean that God's presence is not fully all it could be in that "not as good" area.  That'd be kinda odd in the face of God being All in All.

[thinktank]

doesnt say when God will be all in all though, that could be a very long time away and considering the billions of people on the eartht that need to repent and be saved, it seem there is much work to be done in the next age.

[Johann]

God shall be all in all.

Where God is all, in all of a person, and in all people in all places; everywhere becomes, and is perfectly perfect paradise.  There really can't be any place that is well..."a not as good paradise as the other", that could only mean that God's presence is not fully all it could be in that "not as good" area.  That'd be kinda odd in the face of God being All in All.

I know, that occurred to me too.

Weird belief that I need to study more.

I could only subscribe to it if there was a legitimate case for it, and such a legitimate case would probably include it being some kind of intermediate stage before the "all in all". Because as long as the Kingdom is operating, the first fruits will be working to get the rest of humanity to where they are. 

I think the outer court scenario would correspond better to being hell, actually. Or perhaps another age here on earth...

[Lefein]

Intermediacy I can understand.  Indeed I believe in it to a point.  My only concern is with anyone who might suggest a doctrine of "hierarchy" in heaven.  The sort anyway that has a perpetual caste system of The Perfectly Perfect, and those who are just "perfect".  Since, that'd be a bit icky.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The Tabernacle points to 3 "heavens", the 3 compartments. Paul talked about someone being caught up to the 3rd heaven (which I personally think was Stephen). What most people don't understand is where we are walking around is considered a "heaven" (1st) ; so is the realm of the stars (2nd), and finally where God resides (3rd). He considers all His creation as "waters", waters speak of spirit. The waters below the firmament (the firmament was called heaven and represents Christ the mediator) is the creation we can see, including ourselves.

So I agree to SOME degree with what I've read that you reported it said. Didn't read the link, though......My  :2c:

[shawn]

There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit.  This would be one of them.

I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.  I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession.  Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

This is indeed legalistic.  This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that.  It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven.  That totally misses the point.  The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone.  He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full.  We do not have to pay a partial penalty.  We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt.  It is paid in full. 

If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke.  It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection.  This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it.  God has set me free indeed.

[Johann]

There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit.  This would be one of them.

I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.  I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession.  Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

This is indeed legalistic.  This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that.  It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven.  That totally misses the point.  The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone.  He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full.  We do not have to pay a partial penalty.  We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt.  It is paid in full. 

If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke.  It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection.  This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it.  God has set me free indeed.

I know exactly how you feel, that is why I was near to being nuts for 15 years.

The point is though, that we can't do it on our own will, Christ does it for us. We can't even get near to being good enough on "our own energies". God has been reconciled to us, now we need to be reconciled to Him, by becoming as holy as He is, through Christ's redeeming work in us.

Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!

[Aleax]

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

:iagree:

[Beloved Servant]

Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!

Beautiful.

[shawn]

There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit.  This would be one of them.

I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.  I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession.  Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?

Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it.  Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell.  You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more.  And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better.  If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right.  Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance.  This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.

This is indeed legalistic.  This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that.  It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven.  That totally misses the point.  The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone.  He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full.  We do not have to pay a partial penalty.  We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt.  It is paid in full. 

If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke.  It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection.  This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it.  God has set me free indeed.

I know exactly how you feel, that is why I was near to being nuts for 15 years.

The point is though, that we can't do it on our own will, Christ does it for us. We can't even get near to being good enough on "our own energies". God has been reconciled to us, now we need to be reconciled to Him, by becoming as holy as He is, through Christ's redeeming work in us.

Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!

Exactly...so why would you even consider something like this?  This is a works based salvation doctrine disguised as UR.  I apologize if I sound overly exciteable about this subject.  But, when I was reading that it reminded me of those years of trying to be "good enough" and the insanity that ensued.

[Lefein]

This is indeed legalistic.  This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that.  It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven.  That totally misses the point.  The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone.  He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full.  We do not have to pay a partial penalty.  We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt.  It is paid in full.

If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke.  It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection.  This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it.  God has set me free indeed.

Amen Shawn, I know that for myself the whole thing about rewards in Heaven based on my deeds is a bit bothersome, but probably because I do not yet understand how it works, and I'm sure God will reveal it to me in due time.

But you pointed out what I assume this article is saying (I had a hard time reading it) and I was reminded of a verse in paraphrase that I think can be applied for when people try to get into this "high court" on their own.

"If you sit in the upper room, I'll humble you, if you sit in the lower room, I'll exalt you."  When we try to get into the upper room of rewards by our strength, God is not going to help us, but if we are humble and are content to be so - we'll find the greater reward.

I am also reminded of the verse that talks about the servant being the greatest in the Kingdom of God.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Since I tend to see the spiritual application of things, I read what was said, and see it according to my understanding. That understanding may not be what the author intended. :dontknow:  Hope this makes sense......

[shawn]

This is indeed legalistic.  This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that.  It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven.  That totally misses the point.  The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone.  He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full.  We do not have to pay a partial penalty.  We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt.  It is paid in full.

If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke.  It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection.  This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it.  God has set me free indeed.

Amen Shawn, I know that for myself the whole thing about rewards in Heaven based on my deeds is a bit bothersome, but probably because I do not yet understand how it works, and I'm sure God will reveal it to me in due time.

But you pointed out what I assume this article is saying (I had a hard time reading it) and I was reminded of a verse in paraphrase that I think can be applied for when people try to get into this "high court" on their own.

"If you sit in the upper room, I'll humble you, if you sit in the lower room, I'll exalt you."  When we try to get into the upper room of rewards by our strength, God is not going to help us, but if we are humble and are content to be so - we'll find the greater reward.

I am also reminded of the verse that talks about the servant being the greatest in the Kingdom of God.

I do believe our works will be judged.  But, works do not bring salvation...they should be a natural extension of our love for Christ.  So, in actuality what is being judged is our love for Christ.  Did we love our flowing robes and positions of authority?  Is that what we seek?  Or do we seek the face of Christ?  Are our works a natural overflowing of our love?

How does one love Jesus?  Jesus said, if you love me you will obey me.  Our love for Christ starts with obedience.  With obedience comes relationship and with relationship comes peace and joy.  When you have peace and joy it's just natural to want to give some of that to others.  Peace and joy allows us to escape from self and to be a vessel for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit into the lives of others.  Disobedience brings anxiety and eventually hatred for the things of God.  We become selfish and introverted.

[lomarah]

I have read many things on his site, I found that one before I found this one actually. I am still trying to decide whether I believe it or not... (BTW Cardinal you were supposed to check it out for me a long time ago but you had a lot on the go and forgot.  :happygrin:) I just can't picture, like the rest of you, most of humanity being in a "lesser" state than the very, very few who did become sanctified while on earth. But I don't know, maybe that's how it will be. In any case all I know is that God is going to be all in all in me and everyone else and that is good enough for me!  :cloud9:

[thinktank]

Does it matter if their in a lesser state? As long as their all in heaven and have access to Jesus I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps it is pride, the fear that someone else will have more than us. Jesus said, to sell earthly treasures and you will have treasure in heaven. There is clearly rewards for those who have done good work for the lord, if there are those who have suffered for the gospel, they should be rewarded for their sacrifice and Jesus does reward them, which gives them another reason to lay down their lives for him.

[Lefein]

I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort.  It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.

I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state.  It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth.  Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.

It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth.  Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.

[thinktank]

Yeah I think growth is a part of heaven and those who have nothing can aquire new houses etc, but I think that the saints in this age will aquire unique gifts that others will never have. The reason is because in the book of revelation Jesus promises a new stone with his new name on it and also the song of Moses which only they who had their fathers name in their forheads could learn. So I think that song will be the saints souverneir to show off to others for eternity to come.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: As a side note.....my  :2c:

White stone = alabaster box/law with the darkness/black/death removed from it, so that it only gives life to the hearer and not death, the life of the Spirit. Ministry of condemnation becomes a ministry of reconciliation, reconciling all creation back to God.

Song of Moses = to sing means to raise the voice (out of the carnal dust realm) with a message; Moses/deliverer. Song of Solomon, the song of songs, or message of messages, which is about the soul being "wooed" by the Spirit. Blessings....