I said it's an unusual theory, but one that holds a lot of water. Just off hand, I can think of many Bible verses that appear to mesh with that framework of understanding. Check it out...
http://www.hallvworthington.com/hopeforall.html
Would you outline it for me?
I find the page hard to read.
I think he got many things right especially in the first third of his writings. But, then he went off on tangents that are very difficult for me to accept.
Such as
But, people who don't find holiness in this life "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thes 1:9. Notice he does not say destruction of life or torture, just from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his power - that is the eternal punishment. There is the Kingdom of Heaven, and the heaven after hell, but a heaven isolated from the presence and glory of the Lord. Stephen Crisp, an eminent early Quaker minister said: "The outward court of the temple was for representing the church of God in general, from the particular; the outward court was not measured, that the gentiles might come in; the unbaptized [did not have the baptism of death by fire, resulting in a circumcised heart] people, who were never regenerated, they might come so far as the outward court, but this did not entitle them to the privileges of the house of God, nor to any worship or sacrifice that was accepted upon God's altar."
So there are two heavens...and one is without God? That is certainly quite the theory but that doesn't sit right with me. Then it gets very legalistic. It's like he states the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is if we become sinless. Those who have any ounce of sin will be in hell and this second tiered heaven.
So, basically almost all if not all of us are in bad shape. What I missed in this entire thought process was the blood of Christ. If the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is through us becoming 100% pure then why did Jesus need to die for our sins? I would need to re-read and study before I could completely dismiss this but at first glance it doesn't read true to me.
It doesn't mean there isn't things in here worth reading but much of it doesn't sit right.
Hey thanks!
And yeah, I understand what you mean.
I've come across things like this before that are beautiful on the outside but rotten to the core.
Just more perversion of the truth.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 05, 2010, 05:22:25 AM
Would you outline it for me?
I find the page hard to read.
Um, those that don't achieve complete freedom from sin in this life, which will be the vast majority of humanity, will have their souls destroyed, but their spirits will be saved. They will worship God in spirit from the "outer court of the Temple" (corresponding to the outer court of the temple under the OC where the Gentiles were allowed to enter). Those who have their souls saved will enter the Kingdom and be Sons of God and will reign with Jesus and God in the inner sanctum, where they will rule over those in the outer court, though the "ruling over" will actually be more like humbly "serving under".
Though it isn't a part of the theology of that site, I think the point could legitimately be made that this would be an intermediate stage to the objective of God being "all in all".
I understand what your saying.
Again, more misaligned truth.
The Mormans have an interesting twist to Scriptures and this, if I recall correctly, has a similar shade to it.
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 06:00:43 AM
So there are two heavens...and one is without God? That is certainly quite the theory but that doesn't sit right with me. Then it gets very legalistic. It's like he states the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is if we become sinless. Those who have any ounce of sin will be in hell and this second tiered heaven.
No, no, the "second Heaven" isn't without God, it is just less of a fulfillment/immersion in God than those in "first Heaven. It will be paradise there, but just not as paradaisical as first Heaven.
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 06:00:43 AMSo, basically almost all if not all of us are in bad shape. What I missed in this entire thought process was the blood of Christ. If the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven is through us becoming 100% pure then why did Jesus need to die for our sins? I would need to re-read and study before I could completely dismiss this but at first glance it doesn't read true to me.
It doesn't mean there isn't things in here worth reading but much of it doesn't sit right.
In a nutshell...
Jesus truly died to save us from our sins. His blood opened the way for us to become like He was, which is sin-free and deified. To become like Jesus, our old Adam has to die, which is our earthly sin nature and obstinate will. When we repent of ALL idols and lay down our Adamic will, then Jesus enters and slays our Adam for us, and dwells in our hearts, enabling us to live sin-free, so that it isn't us living, but He living through us. Grace is as much forgiveness of sins as overcoming of sins.
And faith produces works, but they are His works coming through us, not ours.
God shall be all in all.
Where God is all, in all of a person, and in all people in all places; everywhere becomes, and is perfectly perfect paradise. There really can't be any place that is well..."a not as good paradise as the other", that could only mean that God's presence is not fully all it could be in that "not as good" area. That'd be kinda odd in the face of God being All in All.
doesnt say when God will be all in all though, that could be a very long time away and considering the billions of people on the eartht that need to repent and be saved, it seem there is much work to be done in the next age.
Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 07:17:34 AM
God shall be all in all.
Where God is all, in all of a person, and in all people in all places; everywhere becomes, and is perfectly perfect paradise. There really can't be any place that is well..."a not as good paradise as the other", that could only mean that God's presence is not fully all it could be in that "not as good" area. That'd be kinda odd in the face of God being All in All.
I know, that occurred to me too.
Weird belief that I need to study more.
I could only subscribe to it if there was a legitimate case for it, and such a legitimate case would probably include it being some kind of intermediate stage before the "all in all". Because as long as the Kingdom is operating, the first fruits will be working to get the rest of humanity to where they are.
I think the outer court scenario would correspond better to being hell, actually. Or perhaps another age here on earth...
Intermediacy I can understand. Indeed I believe in it to a point. My only concern is with anyone who might suggest a doctrine of "hierarchy" in heaven. The sort anyway that has a perpetual caste system of The Perfectly Perfect, and those who are just "perfect". Since, that'd be a bit icky.
:cloud9: The Tabernacle points to 3 "heavens", the 3 compartments. Paul talked about someone being caught up to the 3rd heaven (which I personally think was Stephen). What most people don't understand is where we are walking around is considered a "heaven" (1st) ; so is the realm of the stars (2nd), and finally where God resides (3rd). He considers all His creation as "waters", waters speak of spirit. The waters below the firmament (the firmament was called heaven and represents Christ the mediator) is the creation we can see, including ourselves.
So I agree to SOME degree with what I've read that you reported it said. Didn't read the link, though......My :2c:
There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit. This would be one of them.
I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession. Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
This is indeed legalistic. This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that. It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven. That totally misses the point. The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone. He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full. We do not have to pay a partial penalty. We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt. It is paid in full.
If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke. It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection. This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it. God has set me free indeed.
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit. This would be one of them.
I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession. Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
This is indeed legalistic. This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that. It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven. That totally misses the point. The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone. He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full. We do not have to pay a partial penalty. We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt. It is paid in full.
If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke. It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection. This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it. God has set me free indeed.
I know exactly how you feel, that is why I was near to being nuts for 15 years.
The point is though, that we can't do it on our own will, Christ does it for us. We can't even get near to being good enough on "our own energies". God has been reconciled to us, now we need to be reconciled to Him, by becoming as holy as He is, through Christ's redeeming work in us.
Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
:iagree:
Quote from: Johann on November 05, 2010, 08:47:22 AM
Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!
Beautiful.
Quote from: Johann on November 05, 2010, 08:47:22 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
There are just certain teachings that don't pass the truth test in my spirit. This would be one of them.
I am sure there is quite a bit of scripture that can rebute some of these points but the main one that comes to mind is when Jesus (while hanging on the cross) states I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise. I would assume this is basically like a death bed confession. Where is the speaking of the purifying fire of hell?
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
This is indeed legalistic. This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that. It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven. That totally misses the point. The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone. He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full. We do not have to pay a partial penalty. We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt. It is paid in full.
If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke. It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection. This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it. God has set me free indeed.
I know exactly how you feel, that is why I was near to being nuts for 15 years.
The point is though, that we can't do it on our own will, Christ does it for us. We can't even get near to being good enough on "our own energies". God has been reconciled to us, now we need to be reconciled to Him, by becoming as holy as He is, through Christ's redeeming work in us.
Don't stress out though, God has His own time-table for restoring us to the perfect image of Him. In the mean-time, just love, love, love, everything and everyone, and most of all, God!
Exactly...so why would you even consider something like this? This is a works based salvation doctrine disguised as UR. I apologize if I sound overly exciteable about this subject. But, when I was reading that it reminded me of those years of trying to be "good enough" and the insanity that ensued.
Quote
This is indeed legalistic. This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that. It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven. That totally misses the point. The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone. He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full. We do not have to pay a partial penalty. We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt. It is paid in full.
If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke. It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection. This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it. God has set me free indeed.
Amen Shawn, I know that for myself the whole thing about rewards in Heaven based on my deeds is a bit bothersome, but probably because I do not yet understand how it works, and I'm sure God will reveal it to me in due time.
But you pointed out what I assume this article is saying (I had a hard time reading it) and I was reminded of a verse in paraphrase that I think can be applied for when people try to get into this "high court" on their own.
"If you sit in the upper room, I'll humble you, if you sit in the lower room, I'll exalt you." When we try to get into the upper room of rewards by our strength, God is not going to help us, but if we are humble and are content to be so - we'll find the greater reward.
I am also reminded of the verse that talks about the servant being the greatest in the Kingdom of God.
:cloud9: Since I tend to see the spiritual application of things, I read what was said, and see it according to my understanding. That understanding may not be what the author intended. :dontknow: Hope this makes sense......
Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 06:49:53 PM
Quote
This is indeed legalistic. This is you trying to get into the high court by your own energy because the blood of Christ doesn't guarantee that. It only guarantees that you might hurt in hell then get a second tiered heaven. That totally misses the point. The fact is God remembers the sins of believers no more...east and west gone. He does not hold our sins against us because the price has been paid...in full. We do not have to pay a partial penalty. We do not have to pay some taxes on the debt. It is paid in full.
If this is indeed correct (and that is a BIG if) that is a heavy heavy yoke. It could drive a man nuts trying to live up to perfection. This doctrine is bondage therefore I do not believe it. God has set me free indeed.
Amen Shawn, I know that for myself the whole thing about rewards in Heaven based on my deeds is a bit bothersome, but probably because I do not yet understand how it works, and I'm sure God will reveal it to me in due time.
But you pointed out what I assume this article is saying (I had a hard time reading it) and I was reminded of a verse in paraphrase that I think can be applied for when people try to get into this "high court" on their own.
"If you sit in the upper room, I'll humble you, if you sit in the lower room, I'll exalt you." When we try to get into the upper room of rewards by our strength, God is not going to help us, but if we are humble and are content to be so - we'll find the greater reward.
I am also reminded of the verse that talks about the servant being the greatest in the Kingdom of God.
I do believe our works will be judged. But, works do not bring salvation...they should be a natural extension of our love for Christ. So, in actuality what is being judged is our love for Christ. Did we love our flowing robes and positions of authority? Is that what we seek? Or do we seek the face of Christ? Are our works a natural overflowing of our love?
How does one love Jesus? Jesus said, if you love me you will obey me. Our love for Christ starts with obedience. With obedience comes relationship and with relationship comes peace and joy. When you have peace and joy it's just natural to want to give some of that to others. Peace and joy allows us to escape from self and to be a vessel for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit into the lives of others. Disobedience brings anxiety and eventually hatred for the things of God. We become selfish and introverted.
I have read many things on his site, I found that one before I found this one actually. I am still trying to decide whether I believe it or not... (BTW Cardinal you were supposed to check it out for me a long time ago but you had a lot on the go and forgot. :happygrin:) I just can't picture, like the rest of you, most of humanity being in a "lesser" state than the very, very few who did become sanctified while on earth. But I don't know, maybe that's how it will be. In any case all I know is that God is going to be all in all in me and everyone else and that is good enough for me! :cloud9:
Does it matter if their in a lesser state? As long as their all in heaven and have access to Jesus I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps it is pride, the fear that someone else will have more than us. Jesus said, to sell earthly treasures and you will have treasure in heaven. There is clearly rewards for those who have done good work for the lord, if there are those who have suffered for the gospel, they should be rewarded for their sacrifice and Jesus does reward them, which gives them another reason to lay down their lives for him.
I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort. It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.
I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state. It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth. Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.
It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth. Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.
Yeah I think growth is a part of heaven and those who have nothing can aquire new houses etc, but I think that the saints in this age will aquire unique gifts that others will never have. The reason is because in the book of revelation Jesus promises a new stone with his new name on it and also the song of Moses which only they who had their fathers name in their forheads could learn. So I think that song will be the saints souverneir to show off to others for eternity to come.
:cloud9: As a side note.....my :2c:
White stone = alabaster box/law with the darkness/black/death removed from it, so that it only gives life to the hearer and not death, the life of the Spirit. Ministry of condemnation becomes a ministry of reconciliation, reconciling all creation back to God.
Song of Moses = to sing means to raise the voice (out of the carnal dust realm) with a message; Moses/deliverer. Song of Solomon, the song of songs, or message of messages, which is about the soul being "wooed" by the Spirit. Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on November 05, 2010, 09:28:31 PM
Does it matter if their in a lesser state? As long as their all in heaven and have access to Jesus I don't see what the problem is. Perhaps it is pride, the fear that someone else will have more than us. Jesus said, to sell earthly treasures and you will have treasure in heaven. There is clearly rewards for those who have done good work for the lord, if there are those who have suffered for the gospel, they should be rewarded for their sacrifice and Jesus does reward them, which gives them another reason to lay down their lives for him.
No, it is not pride at all, I just can't imagine the saints and God not wanting all of His children to be blessed as fully and completely as all the others, and not giving them a chance to be. Can you imagine being in an upper caste and your children or spouse not being able to be?
Hey youve got to motivate christians somehow, having rewards motivates us to do good, we can sort out who gets what later, but the main reward and focus of christ was eternal life, or the crown of life, which most here believe will be given to all men.
I think there is a parable where those who laboured in the field for days got the same reward as those who laboured only an hour. Since the only promise that Jesus has made is life, then it means bonuses are something that the lord can give to anyone who he chooses without complaints from others.
15 But we shall lovingly hold to the truth, and shall in all respects grow up into union with Him who is our Head, even Christ.
16 Dependent on Him, the whole body--its various parts closely fitting and firmly adhering to one another — grows by the aid of every contributory link,
with power proportioned to the need of each individual part, so as to build itself up in a spirit of love.
:cloud9: The Tabernacle shows different levels of experience in the Lord, but all ultimately "end up" in the Holy of Holies. Parable of the talents? :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 09:36:41 PM
I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort. It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.
I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state. It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth. Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.
It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth. Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.
There is some scripture that supports this line of thinking. It might not sit right with some of us but I believe it to be true. We are not talking about a traditional caste system where groups of people are deprived and ostracized. We are talking about some being given certain responsibilities in Heaven. Are not there 12 judges for the tribes of Judah? These are places of authority given to the disciples. None will be spiritual paupers in the presence of the Lord. But, I truly believe some who used their talents for the Kingdom, those who were faithful, obedient but most of all who loved the Lord and their neighbor will be given special responsibilities.
Quote from: shawn on November 06, 2010, 05:27:39 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 09:36:41 PM
I don't think it is so much about "lesser state" but more about the idea of a caste system of any sort. It smells funny to the spirit, if that makes sense.
I think that there are rewards in Heaven, some will go into it with little, others with much -- but I also believe that this is not a permanent state. It is of my belief and opinion that even if you walked into the throne of God's court room stark naked, and without a heavenly penny to your name, you can in the span of a few thousand years become as rewarded as he would have been if he had a head start on Earth. Basically; Heavenly Poverty if it can even exist at all, is not permanent, and any sort of caste system in Heaven is not set in stone.
It'd be odd if the purified pauper had no opportunity to regain what he could have had ahead of time if he'd only been a "good Christian" on Earth. Such permanence of a thing would require a diminishment of Eternity's perpetual blessedness, of which growth is a blessing.
There is some scripture that supports this line of thinking. It might not sit right with some of us but I believe it to be true. We are not talking about a traditional caste system where groups of people are deprived and ostracized. We are talking about some being given certain responsibilities in Heaven. Are not there 12 judges for the tribes of Judah? These are places of authority given to the disciples. None will be spiritual paupers in the presence of the Lord. But, I truly believe some who used their talents for the Kingdom, those who were faithful, obedient but most of all who loved the Lord and their neighbor will be given special responsibilities.
This is what I was thinking as well. Greater responsibility and privilege in the coming ages. In the end when God is "All in all" it will all even out anyways.
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
:cloud9: And may I put forth the thought that we don't have to die to receive our inheritance......He already did it for us......
Perhaps we do have to die (not physically perhaps), and that is partly what is meant when we are told to die to self. :dontknow:
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
I think paradise will be equally wonderful to some people, some may just have more responsibility placed on them. But in the presence of Christ I believe everyone will be MORE then happy with whatever they are given to do. Jealousy and selfishness will be a thing of the past.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:55:48 AM
Perhaps we do have to die (not physically perhaps), and that is partly what is meant when we are told to die to self. :dontknow:
:cloud9: Absolutely.....but my point was that we can experience heaven now. Heaven is not a place so much as it is a state of being. Paul said our conversation is from heaven. You can't speak from a place you're not. Walking in the Spirit as He is in the Spirit, is the same as walking in heaven, and we can do it without physically dying. That's basically what He said to Nicodemus: I'm standing here talking to you, but I'm in heaven. My :2c: Blessings....
I guess we look at this very different Lefein. I have zero issue with some Christians being rewarded in heaven greater than others. I actually find it perfectly fair.
If one person works hard on earth do you believe he should be forced to split his fruits of labor with the person who chooses not to work? Oh wait bad example. :laughing7: Why would the fairness be any different in heaven? Why shouldn't those who gave up their lives through martyrdom be given a reward in heaven for doing so? I don't see what isn't "fair" about that.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
I don't like your idea of heaven being one of everything the same, sounds like a place of the clones. I want a heaven of originality and rewards, wheres the fun if everyone wears Gold?
Also the disciples of Jesus have been given positions around the throne of Jesus and their names on the pillars of new Jerusalem. To take away these privelages from them is criminal. I for one will have no problem having less than these great men, who deserve great rewards for the suffering they went through. Mary is also should be a great women in heaven, although I don't belive shes the queen of heaven.
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.
Not to sound offensive or hurtful, but if you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of God is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet.
Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 04:09:27 PM
Exactly...so why would you even consider something like this? This is a works based salvation doctrine disguised as UR. I apologize if I sound overly exciteable about this subject. But, when I was reading that it reminded me of those years of trying to be "good enough" and the insanity that ensued.
Well, I think it to be the truth.
Do you know most of the people through history who espoused universalism (until the rise and decline of the Universalist Church in America), have had positions close to the one advocated on Hall Worthington's site, though of course they all used different terminology from each other. Some had slightly different understandings too.
When opponents of universalism say UR is a license to sin, I like to point out that most of the proponents of UR throughout history have had a view of salvation they would say is works based and way too strict. :grin:
It isn't works based in the way they think it is though.
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?
Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.
Yes, I do.
:cloud9: So do I.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.
If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person. I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process. Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life? No. And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental. Do, I believe becoming like Christ is a works based process no. I think a doctrine that teaches you must be perfect to avoid hell would lead people to work based thought and living.
If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that. That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one. It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.
Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?
And I do as well. As was promised and I await. :icon_king:
This gospel that I believe will make me complete I believe this, should it be in the Lords will that I preform miracles such as walking on water, then I pray that I walk on water. Is this an award for running the race, this I do not know, but I hope that if I am called to do so I will do it with humility and give Him the Glory.
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 05:29:25 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?
Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.
Why would you study mysticism?
Quote from: shawn on November 07, 2010, 05:42:57 AM
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.
If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person. I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process. Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life? No. And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental.
If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that. That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one. It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.
Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?
When I said you don't have the Holy Spirit yet, I honestly did not mean it in a judgmental way. When I typed it out, I thought it sounded different from what I meant it, but didn't really know how to word it differently.
You see, I know exactly how you feel, where you're coming from, and what a terrible residue legalism combined with the doctrine of eternal torment can leave.
What I write does sound all legalistic and judgmental to you, but it is not. I just wish you could catch this vision of the Love our Father has for us that I've caught over the past year. Through that lens, everything I write would have a slightly different cast to it.
I think few people will have to suffer the many lashes in Hell. Only those who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeded to disobey Him would suffer the many lashes.
If you are aware of your sinful state, and you want to change, you'll be one of the first out of Hell, because you'll be a willing participant to the Holy Spirit's work in you.
Hell isn't real flames, they're spiritual flames perfectly tailored for each persons spiritual condition. Don't fear them, embrace the thought of becoming perfect.
God loves you more than you can comprehend, remember that!
Quote from: shawn on November 07, 2010, 05:45:05 AM
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 05:29:25 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?
Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.
Why would you study mysticism?
Christian mysticism has got a lot of truth in it. I like Origen, Isaac of Syria, Johann Tauler, the mystery writer of Theologia Germanica, Hans Denck, George Fox, Jacob Boehme, William Law, and Jane Lead. Many of these you can read online.
I don't read Edgar Cayce and such who are considered to have been Christian mystics by some.
Ephesians 2
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 06:37:19 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 07, 2010, 05:42:57 AM
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.
If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person. I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process. Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life? No. And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental.
If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that. That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one. It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.
Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?
When I said you don't have the Holy Spirit yet, I honestly did not mean it in a judgmental way. When I typed it out, I thought it sounded different from what I meant it, but didn't really know how to word it differently.
You see, I know exactly how you feel, where you're coming from, and what a terrible residue legalism combined with the doctrine of eternal torment can leave.
What I write does sound all legalistic and judgmental to you, but it is not. I just wish you could catch this vision of the Love our Father has for us that I've caught over the past year. Through that lens, everything I write would have a slightly different cast to it.
I think few people will have to suffer the many lashes in Hell. Only those who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeded to disobey Him would suffer the many lashes.
If you are aware of your sinful state, and you want to change, you'll be one of the first out of Hell, because you'll be a willing participant to the Holy Spirit's work in you.
Hell isn't real flames, they're spiritual flames perfectly tailored for each persons spiritual condition. Don't fear them, embrace the thought of becoming perfect.
God loves you more than you can comprehend, remember that!
I must've totally misunderstood what Hall was saying because I thought he taught that all people have the Holy Spirit or "Light" (Jesus) within them that enlightens them to their sin, and the parable of the talents refers to whether people respond to the light and grow their portion of the Spirit or whether they ignore it or "bury" it. :dontknow:
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 05:29:25 AM
Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 05:43:15 AM
The kings are equal to their people. Jobs are not classifications of where one will live, or how one will live - they are what one will do.
The sinner who does not repent in this life, but goes through purification is still repentant saved. There is no reason he should live in a "lesser paradise" because of the depravity on Earth to which he was subject, and engaged in. Neither should it be the case that a Christian who above all else should humble himself, should become a perpetual step higher than the sinner. It is not fair if I forever have a better estate in paradise while a man who came late should forever have a lesser one.
If that's the case, I have yet another issue in Heaven that needs dealt with. And to be honest, I'm growing a bit weary of Heaven looking less, and less pretty than it should, amongst other things...
If I may be bold; Indeed it had better even out, or there is a little less reason to look forward to it.
From reading the Bible, studying mysticism, and some other things, and adding it all together, I've begun to wonder if perhaps God really is prepping humanity for an inexpressibly glorious future, one we can't even comprehend with our limited earthly minds. Any one else kinda feel this way?
Of course, we can't even begin to conjecture what we don't even remotely know.
Agreed. Jesus kingdom is described partly in Revelation, but God becoming All in all? How could we possibly comprehend something so glorious?
I believe we will be made perfect and complete by the power of the Holy Spirit but I'm not sure that is obtainable in this life. What I know is I walk with Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit leads me through the process of sanctification. I do not believe perfection is obtainable in this life but with God all things are possible...even something this unfathomable to me. When we die, through faith in Christ I believe we will be made perfect. How this process takes place I do not know. Is it instantanous when we enter God's presence? Or is it through Gehenna. I am likely to believe the first but I realize my understanding is extremely limited. All I can do is cooperate with the Holy Spirit through the power of Christ by loving God and my neighbor. Any doctrine that doesn't support that walk I pray will be removed from my mind.
Quote from: lomarah on November 07, 2010, 03:15:52 PM
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 06:37:19 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 07, 2010, 05:42:57 AM
Quote from: Johann on November 07, 2010, 04:38:22 AM
Quote from: shawn on November 05, 2010, 08:24:22 AM
Also, with this line of thinking it would actually hurt you to be a Christian and not quite make it. Because, you would be in the group that would be beaten with many lashes in hell. You knew what you should do...but under your own will you were not able to quite get it right...so off to hell with you so you can be purified some more. And oh btw you get more lashes because you knew better. If you do choose Christ...you had better get it right. Because, under this assumption it would be better to live in sin and ignorance. This thought process makes no distinction between Christian and nonChristian unless you die perfect.
No, no, no, it isn't like that. Only if the Holy Spirit has indwelled you, and you refuse His help in eradicating sin, or perhaps refuse some specific command, and you don't repent of it, forcing the Holy Spirit to retreat, would you get the many lashes in Hell.
If you still think you have to become perfect by your own will, or that becoming the image of Jesus is works salvation, the Holy Spirit hasn't indwelled you yet. Till then, obey the Golden Rule and try to find Christ within you by meditation and prayer. Christ will give you the Holy Spirit.
I do not believe anyone obtains perfection in this life...not a single person. I think that relationship brings a more Christ like image and it's called the sanctification process. Do I believe that leads to perfection in this life? No. And saying someone you haven't met who disagrees with you doesn't have the Holy Spirit is quite judgmental.
If this doctrine that you believe states that we must be perfect...perfectly the image of Christ to avoid the many lashes in hell then I would have a very hard time accepting that. That doctrine would be a heavy yoke...not a light one. It would bring anxiety and depression rather than peace and joy.
Do you have to be able to perform miracles and walk on water like Christ to avoid hell?
When I said you don't have the Holy Spirit yet, I honestly did not mean it in a judgmental way. When I typed it out, I thought it sounded different from what I meant it, but didn't really know how to word it differently.
You see, I know exactly how you feel, where you're coming from, and what a terrible residue legalism combined with the doctrine of eternal torment can leave.
What I write does sound all legalistic and judgmental to you, but it is not. I just wish you could catch this vision of the Love our Father has for us that I've caught over the past year. Through that lens, everything I write would have a slightly different cast to it.
I think few people will have to suffer the many lashes in Hell. Only those who had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then proceeded to disobey Him would suffer the many lashes.
If you are aware of your sinful state, and you want to change, you'll be one of the first out of Hell, because you'll be a willing participant to the Holy Spirit's work in you.
Hell isn't real flames, they're spiritual flames perfectly tailored for each persons spiritual condition. Don't fear them, embrace the thought of becoming perfect.
God loves you more than you can comprehend, remember that!
I must've totally misunderstood what Hall was saying because I thought he taught that all people have the Holy Spirit or "Light" (Jesus) within them that enlightens them to their sin, and the parable of the talents refers to whether people respond to the light and grow their portion of the Spirit or whether they ignore it or "bury" it. :dontknow:
No, you were right, Hall does teach this. I had been operating under a misconception at the time of this thread in 2010. Since then, I've read more of his site and Quaker theology has become much clearer to me.
Wow, I have to say, my discovery and exploration of Quakerism, mysticism, and near-death experiences over the last two years has demolished many of my previous theological and spiritual misconceptions. The learning curve has been steep but fruitful.
That's great Johann. :)
Hall is also very willing to correspond by email, I've spoken with him numerous times. He's a very kind man.
Quote from: lomarah on July 15, 2012, 11:10:34 PM
That's great Johann. :)
Hall is also very willing to correspond by email, I've spoken with him numerous times. He's a very kind man.
Yes, I correspond with him too. He is very kind!
His kindness played a part in helping convince me he is authentic. Well, I'm not 100% convinced yet, but I'm getting there. There were some things he taught I've had trouble accepting, but almost every time my opinion gradually shifted toward understanding and acceptance as I deliberated, read other writings, and gained clarity from the Teacher within.
There are 2 or 3 stumbling blocks yet though. One is a biggie, other two more minor. Jesus, the burning coal of Truth within us all, will help me out sooner or later, I'm sure, as to the validity of the teachings I have trouble accepting.
Yes for sure He will! If you want to discuss them here feel free, many of us have our own struggles and/or have struggled with doctrines and such, maybe some of the same things you are struggling with now.
God bless.