Misogyny in the old testament.

[SLN]

I've been considering the other views posted for a while now. I still can't swallow the thought of God commanding horrible things. I accept the fact that God created evil to teach us certain things, but I also intrinsically know that there is no evil in God.

Just like Satan was a tool in the book of Job, Satan could have been a tool in the entire OT. The book of Job makes it clear to us that while God allows Satan to tempt us and decieve us, he does not go down that road himself. Job's friends thought that it was God himself who was mad with Job for something, and that that's why he was being so severely punished.

Things like that make it obvious the people of old did not know there was a Satan. If they don't know of his existance, how can they tell the difference? They couldn't, because they had no holy spirit. That didn't come till Jesus, who showed us that our Father really is love.

It was very confusing for these people, because they were under the impression it was God, while it in fact was Satan doing this to them. God was allowing it, yes. And like 1Cor 10:11, which Kratos posted a couple pages ago says, it was definitely an admonition for us.

In my point of view, the things that happened in the OT were foreseen by God and were meant to happen to show us how much we need him. He did create evil for a reason. I however do not believe that God himself was the one ordering all this evil to be done.

[Cindi]

Dean said:

I no longer consider a book...the Bible...to be the word of God. Jesus...IS the WORD [logos]of God. My Religion turned me from the LIVING WORD of God...Jesus Christ...to Bible Idolatry.

IMO... Orthodox Christianity worships a book and has mistakenly given it QUALITIES ...that belong only to the LIVING WORD. Scriptures are purposed to be a witness of and towards the LIVING WORD, Jesus. Instead..men have said that Scriptures are a witness to a book, that becomes the word of God... and to the organized Churches... that they hold positions of power and leadership in.

There is a quote by George MacDonald from The Elect Lady that says:

   "They dare not say God will not do this or that, however clear it be that it would not be fair; they are in terror of contradicting the Bible. They make more of the Bible than of God, and so fail to find the truth of the Bible, and accept things concerning God which are not in the Bible, and are the greatest of insults to him!...The God that many people believe in, claiming to be the religious because they believe in him, is a God not worth believing in, a God that ought not to be believed in."

Jesus promised us that the Comforter would come and he would lead us into all truth.  He didn't say "I will send you 66 chapters bound in leather and if you find something within those pages that seems to totally contradict the witness of the Holy Spirit within you...then go with the book."  However...in the "book" are four gospels.  Is it not odd that there are four books that tell virutally identical stories (other than minor differences)  I think it is God's explanation mark...his emphasis on Jesus....the image of the invisible God....how Jesus interacted with those around him...God declaring...."THIS is ME!!!"  "This is my heart toward my children!!"  I find no hint of the OT God in Jesus.  And God explained it to us four times...Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. 

And speaking of books, there is one that is very popular on some of the forums I am on....it is called "The Shack."  I haven't read it but I know people who claim that it is lifechanging.  Someone posted a quote from the Shack on my blog in response to a post about determinism/free will.   

[God speaking] "Mack, just because I work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies doesn't mean I orchestrate the tragedies. Don't ever assume that my using something means I caused it or that I need it to accomplish my purposes. That will only lead you to false notions about me. Grace doesn't depend on suffering to exist, but where there is suffering you will find grace in many facets and colors."

I have more to say but not the time to say it....running late for work.....

Cindi......

[Loveroftruth]

Things like that make it obvious the people of old did not know there was a Satan. If they don't know of the existance, how can they tell the difference? They couldn't, because they had no holy spirit.

It was very confusing for these people, because they were under the impression it was God, while it in fact was Satan doing this to them.

BINGO!!!

And when they killed all the woman and children they could just say God told them to do it. :msealed: :mblush:

[Kept]

ohhh The Shack is a book  :grin: I thought you all were talking about The Shack forum! lol

Sounds like a good book and one to be had to me.

Thanks Cindi and all of you for just being you. I love you all and I am so thankful for being a part of you and you a part of me.

:HeartThrob:

Kratos, thanks for your post to me. You really are a precious brother  :happygrin:

kept

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Saying that God didn't order any of it simply isn't true. Many times He told them to kill everyone and every living thing in the camp of their enemies. Saying that God doesn't destroy flesh, is the same as taking away the covenant of circumcision, or the experience of the cross, which was violent beyond description. Yet God prophesied of it hundreds of years before the event, thru His prophets thru His Spirit, and said it is foolishness to them that perish. Since God speaks and it happens, an argument could even be upheld that He spoke it into existence. Holding Him up to our finite and therefore limited concept of love and behavior, simply will not work.

And they absolutely knew there was a Satan; after all HaSatan appeared in the first few chapters of Torah, as the serpent. And it's interesting that in Job, God gives Satan permission to do all those things, including kill Job's 10 children. And Job's WIFE/SOUL tells him to curse God and die. But in all this, it says, Job sinned not with his mouth. To me, this line of thinking is getting very close to saying that God is not righteous. Personally, I wouldn't want to go there, because the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. My  :2c: Blessings to all........

[Kept]

Cardinal

I dont think you are hearing folks correctly if you think folks are saying God is not righteous.

I can see your points and they make perfect sense from Your paradigm. The absolute soverignty paradigm absolutely would not hesitate to agree that all this was Gods doing. But not everyone is an absolute sovergnty believer here and therefore our paradigm is not the same.

I agree with the spiritual revelation of the ot, that God destroys flesh and makes alive the newman in Christ in the spirit. That is all thru the ot on one level of seeing. Same story over and over and over. I dont deny that.

kept

[Kept]

And yes God gave satan permission but He didnt do the actual deeds to job Himself

He turned it to good

isnt that what happens when we read the ot, it is turned to good on the level of spiritual understanding

but question is, who was actually doing the deeds?

just food for thought

kept

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Satan, as the destroyer, as an agent of the Lord God, in Job's case. And the men God told to kill the enemies, in the other. Either way, to me God is in control of all things. If He wasn't in control for one second, death on a massive scale would be the result.

At least that's what was made plain to me, when I was saved a mere 8 days and asked Him for a sign. He let me feel and be aware of His hand being taken off me just a little, for about an hour. Within 2 minutes I was desperately scrambling to get into a Spirit filled church (the only thing I knew to do at the time) for protection from the enemy of our souls. I know my experiences are not necessarily the norm, but as He was dealing with a totally blank slate with a strong rebellious streak, the "show and tell" method of teaching seemed to bring Him the quickest results. :winkgrin::mshock:

That's still my  :2c: , but I understand your points.......

[Kept]

Oh Cardinal I do believe God is in control of satan and all adversarial spirits if you will

I dont think He abandons His throne at all sis

but Im working thru some things

thanks for helping me to work thru them, challange me all you want and that is good for me, I honor ya for it

:HeartThrob:

kept

[Loveroftruth]

So I could go and kill my neighboor today and say God told me to and it would be "of God" :dontknow: (Gods desire)?

[Kept]

Ohhh I was just reminded of something in my spirit too

I recall, will have to find this but it is very interesting

Job is supposed to be the first in order or oldest of the books if Im not mistaken. Have to find that

That being the case, if that is true, I would imagine that job is key to understanding much of the bible

sets the tone

I love seeing Jesus Christ in Job wowza

kept

[Kept]

Check this out

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=903

How we see our God in job might just be key to understanding the entire bible in that it is pre-mosaic most likely

interesting to think about

kept

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know you know this, but I'm not really intentionally challenging you, Kept. Just sharing from another viewpoint sometimes does that without the intent being present, you know?

And LT, the OT was outward visible example, a series of parts of patterns to point to a whole. So not likely He would do that now that we are under a new covenant that is not about the outward realities but about the inward.

It was said by Him that He took Israel out into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts. We know that we too are "Israel" and that's why He told us that what happened with them was for our example. So if our "heart" offends us, we should cut it out, yes? Voila, the circumcision of the heart......... :winkgrin:

[Michele]

So I could go and kill my neighboor today and say God told me to and it would be "of God" :dontknow: (Gods desire)?

Hey Christine  :girlheart:......surely that's not of God, but IMO God can use "evil" in order to develop the good........curses can become blessings.

In photography.....the only way for a negative image to be properly developed is for it to be placed in darkness in the beginning stage of the process.  Darkness is required in order for the True Image to be developed within.

The true image is light and love.......and is the very essence of our creator.  In a metaphorical way, mankind is like a picture of the image of God.

The picture was taken with a flash of Light, and in order for the image to be developed it must become a negative first.

This idea.......came to me one day as I was studying the shroud of Jesus Christ.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup: That was good SG. I love "God thoughts" and that was one of 'em! Creation is His "wife", His witness. Helpmeet and foundation are interrelated words. He's so awesome and His Word a non-stop treasure......blessings to you........

[reFORMer]

God created a nation of people and promised them a land flowing with milk and honey where they'd live in houses they didn't build, eat of orchards and fields they never planted or tilled, and drink of vineyards they didn't cultivate.  In order to possess the land he gave them, they had to kill every man, woman and child, as well as all beasts, who were already living therein.  Later on, they had quite a lot of trouble from failing to do just that.  Remember, this was a nation dealing with another nation, not some individual against another person.

This is mentioned by some as proof against it actually being being the true God of Jesus Christ.  The part of the story that gets left out is the reason why God condemned the original inhabitants of the land; and, that later on, when His own turned against Him, doing the same things and even worse, He removed them as well.

What they were doing that was so bad was funereal/fertility celebrations where the whole family had sex with each other, grandma's corpse and animals, usually dogs, maybe goats included.  There were blood sacrifices, often their own children slain, all to worship their gods.  Because of the resultant deeply ingrained mental problems and actual diseases, they were all to be removed from God's sight.  He also didn't want His people to be defiled by such abominations.  By leaving some of the original inhabitants of the land they later learned to to the same things, even worse, leading to their own destruction and removal.  Their Asherim groves were groups of poles that were phallic symbols to goddess/fertility worship that surrounded the altars for human sacrifice.  The remains of these sacrifices were mixed into the mortar used for entryways and foundations in their houses.  The worship of Baal became so popular that God had reserved to himself but 7000 men (and their families) out of all the land in the days of Elijah.  All the rest had "kissed the calf," which involved a male temple prostitute devoted to Baal wearing a Calf's head suit on his upper body. The Jews and Israelites even attributed burning their firstborn children to God

I don't find this removal of those cultures hard to understand.  The lessons oversimplified are 1.) We need to take care we don't go to the wrong church today; and, 2.) He'll still give the wealth of the wicked to the righteous.

Remember this was a very active worship discreetly described in Jeremiah 7 and 32, particularly 32:34-35:  "But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.  And they built the high places (altars and asherim groves) of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Geehena), to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech (the King); which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."  If passing your children through a natural and temporal fire was an abomination that never even entered into God's mind for them to do, how surely abominable is the devotion to the belief today that this Gehenna is a place where your children will be burned by God for ever and ever!   


---James Rohde

[Kept]

TY Reformer

I was having a convo like this recently and meditating on the very real possibility that even animals sacrifice could have been a step up as one sister said.

I do see where this corruption would have to be stopped or the whole race of mankind could have been wiped out by diseases they had no cure for from the sexual practices with the dead, animals and such.

good point

kept

[Kept]

edited

:girlheart:

kept

[Hennessey]

Whoa! James if you care not to use that on your "My Church' blog I'll be glad to add an introduction and credit and place it on mine.

That piece is incredibly powerful. Please E-mail or PM me.

Bless you good brother,

Jack

[reFORMer]

Whoa! James if you care not to use that on your "My Church' blog I'll be glad to add an introduction and credit and place it on mine.

That piece is incredibly powerful. Please E-mail or PM me.

Bless you good brother,

Jack

Sure, you can use it.  I'd hoped y'all hadn't missed what I posted last night (# 74 at the end of page 5.)  I hoped there might be some response on the future realms where galaxies collide.

---James Rohde

[Hennessey]

I did read the other post brother and I left you a PS as to how much I enjoyed it. Joian and I the other night were talking about the mighty men and women God is raising up to share truth in this dark day. The darkness only magnifies such messages as you share James. I have watched those with no heart for truth hurriedly scamper from your words in a number of places. I also know there are one or two that are seeing and being freed by such. What a wonderful day to live in when such wondrous truth is being published.

I believe we can only know God's sovereignty when we suffer His sovereignty. Then we fall at His feet in Love because He suffers with us.

Be blessed,

Jack

[Dean]

 :2c:

And when His disciples, James and John saw this, they said, "Lord do you want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. LK 9:54

Human history is filled with man [nations]... believing and declaring that their God has told them to kill other men and to destroy other nations.

I have personally met the Son of Man..Jesus Christ. "He said that He did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them" AND... that if you have seen me...then you have seen the Father. My Religion told me all about the god who instructs men to kill and to destroy other mens lives...but...I have never met him.

Was it not a part of Jesus mission here on Earth, to reveal to men what God the Father is really like?

Dean

[Hennessey]

Dean, do we not put so much more than we should on this side of the grave denying that the greater work might well be done on the other shore. I have so wrestled with the best this world can give my children even if they live the best of lives by the world standards. Physical death is inevitable and not such a bad thing when we know of which death is the greater. 

Brother I have wrestled and suffered mightily with this for nights on end and all I can do is surrender knowing the glory he has provided will erase all the hurt and pain of the perceived injustices of this world.

Be blessed Dean and please know I appreciate your heart and those that search deep for His Truths,

Jack

[SLN]

And they absolutely knew there was a Satan; after all HaSatan appeared in the first few chapters of Torah, as the serpent. And it's interesting that in Job, God gives Satan permission to do all those things, including kill Job's 10 children. And Job's WIFE/SOUL tells him to curse God and die. But in all this, it says, Job sinned not with his mouth. To me, this line of thinking is getting very close to saying that God is not righteous. Personally, I wouldn't want to go there, because the fear (reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. My  :2c: Blessings to all........

You make a valid point. I should have said "They don't know of Satan's capabilities", considering the display of power in Job, it's pretty obvious he's no small fish. Could easily pass for God, wouldn't you think? Job's friends sure seemed to think so.

The permission was indeed given to Satan. This is logical, for Satan has a purpose. If he had no purpose, if God could do such horrendous acts himself, he would have no need to create Satan.

I do think God is righteous, I think he's way too righteous to order genocide (including infants and sometimes animals). I also think he's omniscient enough to see the purpose of evil and therefore created Satan.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't. After all, He "ordered" the flood......