Rev 4 vs. Rev 20

[LS]

I agree with all these well spoken words. And of course, I have gone through a similar sifting process to arrive where I am (not to say you will arrive here). I especially agree with your point about not having to manipulate too much, and I personally think way to much weight is put on the translation issues. I stand in this testimony because of 8 simple portions of scripture. I could not manipulate their combined weight. If I cannot take these at face value the the Bible would be no longer of any value to me as an inerant source for doctrine. To be brief I will list them with no commentary, but with some emphasized words. (Everything emphasized in blue is one word, "pas", a greek word meaning- all inclusive, everything; Strong's)

Hi eaglesway - Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. As I read it and considered it, I can honestly say that I see no conflict of any of those passages with my belief of annihilation.

We know that Jesus' enemies (including death) will be destroyed:

24 then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15)

I don't think any of us believes this is a temporary destruction for a time; I think we all believe this destruction is permanent, forevermore, never ending.

I believe this passage of Revelation tells us about the final and neverending destruction of death. And if death, then I believe the same must apply to Hades and anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life: 

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20)

[thinktank]

Hello LS, good to see you back. I once belived in annhilation, because I believed in the soul sleep, but after changing my soul sleep idea to the idea of immortal spirit, I then thought annhilation cannot be, otherwise the lake of fire = ET. But now I have gone back to annhilation, but also have kept the immortal spirit idea, so I believe it is possible for the immortal spirit to be destroyed in the lake of fire and no longer exist. But I don't know just yet concerning universal salvation I did believe a few weeks ago but know not so sure, but I belive that God will save, those who will, but don't know how or if he will save those who don't want Him.
:2c:

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 4:14    

Then we will no longer be infants,
tossed back and forth by the waves,
and blown here and there by every wind of teaching
and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

[thinktank]

Ephesians 4:14    

Then we will no longer be infants,
tossed back and forth by the waves,
and blown here and there by every wind of teaching
and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

I think this is unfair, because UR is very new to me very new indeed, even though I did first learn about it in my first walk with Christ when I was a christian baby from an unorthodox source. Something like this a radical doctrine to the church tradition sometimes takes years of growing and teaching. I only had the possobility that all men will be saved about a month back and only about a week ago I have had doubts.

Before one has a position on solid ground it takes many months and years of practice, otherwise the winds will break down the house. In particular, pionners, new inventions, new ideas, philosophies, revelations these are often thought of and received by open minds and the dangers of having an open mind include entertaining other ideas that are sometimes opposed to their other relevations. The danger of If one does not have an open mind then they close their mind to new revelations from scripture being stuck in one place. So to me if there are new revelations concerning the lake of fire and what it means I would prefer to know the truth of God, rather than the prepossitions of men or the doctrines of a particular group, I hope this does not offend you, that I would prefer the truth of God than error and this is one reason I am here, because many truths are here but not ALL TRUTH for that is impossible, only God has All truth.

[Beloved Servant]

You may quietly rest knowing that it impossible for you to offend me.

[LS]

Hi Thinktank - we know that the soul can be destroyed:


Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Don't allow anyone to make you feel bullied into one belief or another.  Keep seeking, asking and praying ... ask God to protect you from being deceived and to show you what He desires for you to know.   :grouppray:

[Beloved Servant]

Amen LS,
Because when the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't know who said it now, but I think "age-enduring" is the best explanation I've seen......

[Beloved Servant]

                                                                 
                                                                       


                                                                                              <——— until ———>

[LS]

Amen LS,
Because when the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.

Are you having a bad day, Beloved Servant? I haven't seen this side of you before, but I'm not a regular here either. I'm sorry if the discussion troubled you; may God bless you and grant you peace.   :grouppray:

[Beloved Servant]

Bad day???

No, I never have bad days!

I'm more like a barometer responding to the surrounding atmosphere.

1...2...3...  www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRbA9iVKm3w&feature=related

[thinktank]

Hi Thinktank - we know that the soul can be destroyed:


Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


Don't allow anyone to make you feel bullied into one belief or another.  Keep seeking, asking and praying ... ask God to protect you from being deceived and to show you what He desires for you to know.   :grouppray:

Don't worry, protection from deception is something strong God as given me although never hurts to keep growing in an area where one perceives to be strong. I'm here at tentmaker not to be deceived but to see how the idea of universal salvation can be in harmony with scriptures such as those above, I stay here because I am attracted to the idea that all are saved and the teaching is in harmony with Gods character of forgiving all which is the meat of Jesus teachings and reconciling all things to himself, but some aspects about that concerns me also because the teaching opens up other questions such as the nature of darkness and its purpose and whether God will do a "Saul experience" for every person in the lake of fire, allowing them to call upon Jesus, which is something I'm praying about, maybe this is what the lake of fire is about and the devil does not have a sin offering and is no longer has any light, therefore is extinguished, but human beings even someone as evil as hitler would have elements of light within them that can be saved, it just needs the darkness to be removed from his spirit via fire and the blood of Jesus christ. So reconciling all things to christ may not include the devil because he is not of Christ or of his light but we human beings are created in Christs image and have a perfect sin offering for all our sins and once the lake of fire burns away the outer garments of deception, only the inner image of Christ remains. Perhaps that's what those scriptures mean, that an evil soul will be purged so much of their identity, that they are more or less destroyed and that people who are saved now can keep their indentity of their eartlhy life of doing good works, therefore their souls are deemed saved.

Thanks for praying Ls, you have a great heart for prayer and God has given you a great gift, may your prayers be a blessing to all that you pray for in double portion in the name of YAHushua. amen

[Lefein]

What purpose would it serve God to torture anyone ceaselessly?

There is also quite a large gap between chapter 4 of Revelation, and chapter 20 of the same book.

[eaglesway]

LS believes in annihilation, not Eternal torment

[Lefein]

The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.

[jabcat]

The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.

...the word "tormented" is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense. It is this latter usage from which the translators derived the English "torment."    www.harvestherald.com

[eaglesway]

Hi eaglesway - Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. As I read it and considered it, I can honestly say that I see no conflict of any of those passages with my belief of annihilation.

We know that Jesus' enemies (including death) will be destroyed:

24 then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15)

I don't think any of us believes this is a temporary destruction for a time; I think we all believe this destruction is permanent, forevermore, never ending.

On the contrary many of us believe exactly that the lake of fire and brimstone(theon) is for purging, correction, consuming darkness till every knee bow-every enemy SUBJECTED so that GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL.

26 The last enemy to be destroyedG2673 is death  The word is katargeo, it is used 28 times in the NT. 24 times it is translated "abolished"; "made of none effect"; "put away"; "done away"; "made void"; "delivered" and others.

It is used of the law in Rom 7....made of none effect by Christ

It is used of that which is partial(tongues, prophecy) in 1 Cor 13....when that which is perfect is come that which is partial will be "done away"

That which is perfect will have come when GOD IS ALL IN ALL. Then death, the last adversary will be "made void" because the summing up of all things in Christ will have been completed and God will be all in all.

As the law was made of no use by the coming of grace, so death will no longer be needed when God is all in all.

1 Cor 15 teaches that 1)As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive 2) Every enemy will be SUBJECTED and RETURNED TO THE FATHER so that GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL- it is obvious in the context those subjected ones will be in among those in whom God becomes ALL because He will do that IN ALL, because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

The word in Matthew 10:28 "destroy" body and soul in gehenna is "appolumi". The "lost(appollumi) sheep of Israel" will all be gathered into Christ- some willingly, some as through the flames.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

one UR understanding; 

"That following the first resurrection there will be a 1000 year reign of Jesus with His faithful. This period of time and the following ages are designated as the great 'Day of Judgment', and the 'Times of the Restitution of All Things', in which all the dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Those who have died in ignorance will be given the opportunity to come to Christ and obtain salvation. Judgment is made according to one's works, their submission to Christ, his rulership...The truth of the Gospel will be testified to all who have neither heard nor understood. The wicked one who rises to judgment failing to make restitution for sin and come to repentance will suffer punishment in the second death. This 1000 year day of judgment and the ages which follow  restore the earth to the condition which was lost in Eden, and establish righteousness and human perfection which Adam lost for his unborn posterity; the final outcome being the ultimate reconciliation of all creation to its Creator and the final destruction of the sinful flesh, after which death is abolished."

www.harvestherald.com

"let him who hath an ear hear what the Spirit says unto the churches..."

[WhiteWings]

[quote author=LS
Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it.  Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion.  I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices.

Hi,

The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end".  This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.

CHB

I think
Eternal: Without a beginning or end.
Everlasting: Has a begining but no end.
Age: With a beginning and an end.

[Lefein]

The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.

...the word "tormented" is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense. It is this latter usage from which the translators derived the English "torment."    www.harvestherald.com

Hence, I put "Torment" in quotes.  :icon_joker:

[CHB]

Hi WW,

Everlasting: is eternal. Eternal is everlasting. Both are without beginning or end. I looked up the word eternal and here is what I found.

Eternal 1. without beginning or end: everlasting. timeless. forever the same.

Eternity 1. the quality state or fact of being eternal:  continuance without end. 2. infinite time: time without beginning or end. 3. a long period of time that seems endless.

How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?

I think all the words such as eternal, forever, everlasting, eternity, are without beginning or end.
I think the translators just made a mistake in putting these words in places that they shouldn't be. Think about it, most translators believed in hell, did they not?  I think the meaning of these words got lost somewhere along the way. Have you ever said, "it took me forever to do such and such"? Well, did it really take forever? These words can only apply to God but just like everything else man has taken them and applied them to himself.

CHB 

[Lefein]

Out of curiousity myself, I'd like to ask you LS: (and forgive some of the repetitive long-hand, I just want to be absolutely specific in some areas)

Of what good purpose would annihilation serve Yahweh?

How many shall be annihilated?

What victory is there for God in Annihilation; the abolition of existence - which is the most absolute form of death; being the death, destruction, making absent of life, or being the body, soul, spirit, and very existence of an individual; if Death, even Absolute Death by annihilation robs God forever of his goal and will?

God's will, and goal:

1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

How can Death be defeated if it forever robs God, and continues to rob God even from its own grave?  God is the god of recompense, when we lose things for his sake he gives us back double, or multiples.  Ultimate victory does not come until recompense is given. 

If Death (who has robbed God of his creations, the children of Adam, by separating them from him and stealing them from him through sin, vice, physical death, ignorance, and otherwise) does not allow God to recompense himself for all of the stuff that Death has stolen from him by letting God take everyone he has made, and increase them in quality (glorify them, purify them, and make them better in general) so as to recompense himself double what Death stole from him;

Zec 9:12  Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
Job 42:12  So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:

;Then how shall he gain the victory over Death?  Being perpetually robbed of his own recompense?

[eaglesway]

How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?


CHB

What are you saying? That God cannot do something that never was, something new, that will never end? I see it differently. I think that there are things He has begun(created) that will endure through out all ages and beyond(forever, eternal) as death is swallowed up by immortality and God fills all things with life. I kno some believe that whatever is eternal(including us) always was and will be. But I believe in sovereign creation, and that God is generating(genesis) new things(beings) within this bubble of kosmos and aion that is presently suspended in the midst of eternity. When the last enemy (death/termination/finiteness) is "destroyed"(katargeo-done away/made void) everything will be suffused with eternity, even as we already are by virtue of the reconciliation[he that believes in me has passed from death(finiteness) unto life(immortality)]. Whew.....the word is awesome, and we see through a glass darkly, eh?


As to everlasting and eternal.....

And these shall go away into everlastingG166 punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46)

Here we can see clearly that eternal and everlasting are the same greek word (aionios) taken from the same Hebrew word "olam" which simply means "unseen" or "other world(ly)" or  "beyond the horizon".

Aionios is translated eternal 40+ times and everlasting 20+ times, so there is virtually no distintive use in the English from the KJV.

Aidos appears in two places. In Romans 1:20 it is "eternal", in Jude 6 it is "everlasting", so, no help there.

The NASB renders aionios and aidos both as eternal in every single usage.

Youngs Literal uses eternal only once, for aidos in romans 1:20 and everlasting only once, for aidos in Jude:6 (go figure :dontknow:) and uses age-during for aionios the rest of the time.

It seems that we have to go a little deeper in word study to get anywhere near a consistant understanding. It is not good enough to beat one another over the head :hammerhead:  :bdh: with ideas extrapolated from  what the Engish "might" mean :popout:
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

Hi WW,

Everlasting: is eternal. Eternal is everlasting. Both are without beginning or end. I looked up the word eternal and here is what I found.

Eternal 1. without beginning or end: everlasting. timeless. forever the same.

Eternity 1. the quality state or fact of being eternal:  continuance without end. 2. infinite time: time without beginning or end. 3. a long period of time that seems endless.

How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?

I think all the words such as eternal, forever, everlasting, eternity, are without beginning or end.
I think the translators just made a mistake in putting these words in places that they shouldn't be. Think about it, most translators believed in hell, did they not?  I think the meaning of these words got lost somewhere along the way. Have you ever said, "it took me forever to do such and such"? Well, did it really take forever? These words can only apply to God but just like everything else man has taken them and applied them to himself.

CHB

Hi back CHB :bgdance:
Everlasting:
1 : lasting or enduring through all time : ETERNAL *what a peace is mine, leaning on the everlasting arms— E.A.Hoffman* *belief in unchanging and everlasting laws governing the physical universe*
2 a (1) : continuing indefinitely or during a long period : PERPETUAL *reached the zone of everlasting snow* *the one thing that seemed to her immutable and everlasting was the poverty of the soil— Ellen Glasgow* (2) of a plant   : retaining its form or color for a long time when dried *everlasting flowers*  b : wearisome or tedious from repetition : CONTINUAL *she had grown tired of his everlasting whimpering— O.E.R*lvaag*
3 : wearing indefinitely : DURABLE *everlasting cotton homespun*

Yep I've read the word Eternal....
"Enduring through all time"
 

 
Eternal
1 a : having infinite duration: (1) : infinite in past and future duration : having no beginning or end *the eternal God is your dwelling place— Deut 33:27 (Revised Standard Version)* (2) : infinite in past duration : having no beginning (3) : infinite in future duration : having no end *the soldiers were convinced that whatever happened, the end of the war would mark the opening of an era of eternal peace— R. de R. de Sales*  b : having infinite duration and characterized by abiding fellowship with God *good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mk 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)*  c : of or relating to eternity *this eternal blazon must not be to ears of flesh and blood— Shakespeare*
2 a : continued without intermission : CEASELESS, UNCHANGING *and fires eternal in thy temple shine— John Dryden*  b : seemingly endless often to the point of weariness or disgust : constantly recurring : INTERMINABLE *there was also the eternal waiting in hotels for appointments with officials— Herbert Hoover*
3 archaic   : INFERNAL, DAMNED —  used as an intensive *some eternal villain T devised this slander— Shakespeare*
4 : valid or existing at all times : IMMUTABLE, UNCHANGEABLE *right and wrong were eternal verities T which could not be changed and must not be tampered with— O.E.R*lvaag*
5 : outside or beyond temporal relationships : discrete from all times : TIMELESS *a color is eternal— A.N.Whitehead*

That sounds different to me.