4:8 And the four living creatures, each by itself severally, had six wings, around and within `are' full of eyes, and rest they have not day and night, saying, `Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming;'
4:9 and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,
4:10 fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
4:11 `Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou -- Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.'
--
20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where `are' the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
--
How would you explain "ages of the ages" means "forever" in the 4th chapter but "not forever" in the 20th?
God is infinite, the beast and the false prophet are not.
But lets look at the Greek, maybe it will reveal something.
Revelation 4:9 The Greek, and Literal Translation.
Kai hotan dosousin ta zoa doxan kai timen kai eucharistian to kathemeno epi tou thronou to zonti eis tous aionas ton aionon.
And when-ever shall-be-giving the living-ones esteem glory and value and thanking[thanksgiving] to-the one-sitting on of-the[the] throne to-the one-living INTO the eons of-the eons.
Revelation 4:10
Pesountai hoi eikosi kai tessares presbuteroi enopion tou kathemenou epi tou thronou kai proskunousin to zonti eis tous aionas ton aionon:
Shall-be-falling the twenty and four seniors[elders] in-view[sight-of-before] of-the one-sitting on of-the[the] throne and they-are-worshiping to-the[the] one-living INTO the eons of the eons.
Revelation 4:10
Kai ho diabolos ho planon autous eblethe eis ten limnen tou puros kai theiou hopou to therion kai ho pseudoprophetes kai basanisthesontai hemeras kai nuktos eis tous aionas ton aionon.
And the-thru-caster[adversary] the one-straying[one-deceiving] them was-cast into the lake of-the fire and sulphur where-are the wild-beast and the false-prophet and they-shall-be-being-ordealised[they-shall-be-being-tormented] of-day and of-night INTO the eons of-the eons.
Lefein,
The literal translation is from the ISA2 program I assume.
If so do you type all those words yourself or have you found a way to copy and paste from ISA2?
I type them all myself. I unfortunately haven't found a way to copy-paste. They are indeed from ISA2.
Then let's hope version 3 has that functionality....
Amen, amen! :laughing7:
Quote from: Aleax on October 19, 2010, 05:46:37 AM
How would you explain "ages of the ages" means "forever" in the 4th chapter but "not forever" in the 20th?
In my opinion, "forever" means "forever" in both cases, just as "eternal" means the same thing in Matthew 25 and "for ever and ever" means the same thing in Psalm 9 (in this thread) (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/psalm_9_8358.0.html)
I wonder if "ages of the ages" or "forever and ever" are not sort of like...titles, signatures, or punctuating phrases, kind of like how in Exodus, and the other books that gave portions of the Judaic Laws would sign the declarations with "Thus saith the Lord".
I continue to say this from time to time, but I think it is pertinent. The word that matters most is "olam" because aion and aionios both are translations of it. Olam means "beyond the horizon, or unkown or other worldly". This is why aion is sometimes translated age and sometimes translated world. Olam incoroated both htoughts depending on what subject it was connected to. It was commonly used in relationship to various(unknown) lenghts of time - including time transcendent "other worldly" definitions, being modified by the subject matter variously. Example, the time of a slaves period of lifetime indenture, because the length of the slaves life would be unknown at the beginning of his indenture- so he would be a slave "olam". When pertaining to aionian pur(fire) the period of fire would be olam because not one knows how long it will be until "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" and when the last enemy will capitulate- having paid "the last penny". When referring to God, olam is obviously unknown(beyond the veil/horizon) and also obviously eternal, or forever, because God is infinite and unknowable and undefinable. Aion is a modern word, in comparison to olam- and is possibly a big part of the problem in the" loss of original thought in the process of translation" because people are going into the writings of Plato and Aristotle as if their thoughts concerning the meaning of aion could define the original thought contained in the original word, "olam". I don't think that process works. The point ought always be to get to the original thought.
So then perhaps when it pertains to chastisement...
Aionios; age-lasting, could perhaps be instead: World-lasting? That might put a new sort of idea behind the typically used verses of Eternal Life, vs. Eternal Punishment.
World-lasting Life, would pertain to the world in which Life takes place - the world of the Deathless reigning.
World-lasting Chastisement, would pertain (even aside from the temporal nature of Chastisement) to the world in which Chastisement takes place, which itself will be end at some point even after the chastisement of an individual has met its goal to bend the knee of the person to Christ, in which case the world of separation from God is no longer applicable, and he goes from "world of death-lasting" existence into "world of deathlessness and life-lasting" existence.
I think think that makes a lot of sense. kosmos/world-universe and aion/world-age are related IMO. Sometimes we treat things completely separate when they may be interrelated, or just the primary aspects of a whole- like blue and green and yellow are interrelated and aspects of light, the aspects of creation -worlds, ages, times, seasons are expressesd as kosmos, aion, chronos, kairos, genea and are just interrelated specifics of the whole.
Hi;
Haven't seen you in ages.
Down through the ages..
Many examples of the unknown quantity of time. Your definition is well said, eaglesway.
That then also backs up the ages of judgement as unknown periods of time for the removal of the error of man's ways and the leading to the truth. The great white throne could be a lengthy process.
YES!
So basically, we could think of Aion and Olam as existential phrases pertaining not just specifically to time, but to the nature of circumstances as well?
A bit like what Ross said;
"Haven't seen you in ages"
It doesn't so much have to do with how long one person has, or hasn't seen the other (though that is a fundamental part of it), rather than the kernel point being made; "I haven't seen you, now I do at long last"
Conclusion?
Aionian chastisement, or world-lasting chastisement is an existential phrase pertaining to the nature of the circumstances; You will under go a purifying change, that change will take as long as it needs to take.
"I can do this all day if I have to..."
4:10 fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne:
20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where `are' the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.
The existential nature of circumstances in this verse compared to the one below it, are connected with the subject that they pertain to. God who lives for a long-long time, and The Adversary, and The Beast, and The False Prophet who shall be tormented for a long-long time.
Though their torment may be temporal, pertaining existentially to the nature of circumstances or "world" that they have been put within; that doesn't mean that God is temporal by connection of the phrase "to ages of the ages", because his existential nature of circumstances described by the phrase to begin with is by default completely different. His nature being immortal, deathless, I AM, incorruptible, etc; whereas the evil three are not.
If you already believe US to be true, then the explanation you all are offering, really, is the way you can see it so that it makes sense.
But if you don't have a belief in US, then I have say (gently) that those explanations sound a little dishonest.
I wouldn't use the same word in one sentence to mean too different things ... "I haven't seen you for ages! I can't wait until we live for ages in the next life with God!"
Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it. Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion. I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices.
I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but am only trying to explain how it appears from a different perspective.
I am not taking it as rude to begin with. Only that in light of scripture, logic, and the other witnesses - something has to be in the mix that needs explanation.
I think the greater problem is that even we do not have a complete understanding of the context behind the words Olam, and Aion, because our native languages are not biblical Hebrew or Greek. These are rather ambiguous words, and phrases to be honest. They are almost like idioms.
"My way, or the highway" is an idiom that uses the word "way" in it. Someone from a culture who is not native English speaking, and doesn't have a concept of roads, or how things work in developed countries might not get it. What originally means "my option, or pack your stuff and hit the road" might be interpreted as "my way, or a way that is above my way in quality", a misinterpretation. Just looking at it from another perspective as well. :)
Hi LS
No rudeness taken or implied I hope :o). However, There is no dishonesty in it once you do the thorough study on the uses of "olam" in the OT and conclude properly that all the uses of aion and aionios extend from a translation process started with the original though communicated by "olam". I am not saying this makes mine or L s conclusions correct. I am saying that there are logical possibilities there worthy of consideration at any objective table, honestly...(and of course, I do think I am correct LOL) Peace, John
Behold, I am making ALL THINGS NEW
I appreciate that you took that in the spirit it was intended :)
I certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen.
I really don't think that readers nor listeners of the Word need to have study tools at-hand to correctly understand. I think the most casual listener will hear and correctly understand what is being conveyed. Deeper study and more spiritual meanings aren't necessarily "wrong" and can bring deeper levels of understanding, but in my opinion they can't negate the more obvious and simpler meaning.
That is what I come back to anyway. I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct. I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it. That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself :)
QuoteI certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen.
Thus, The Holy Spirit is our teacher, not the written word itself, or theologians. Even (lol and especially) we (Eaglesway and I) are not.
Quote
That is what I come back to anyway. I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct. I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it. That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself :)
My advice from experience is; "Go with peace"
Look at the options, and consider them, weigh them against the standard - the nature of God who is Love, Righteous, True, Kind, Graceful, Forgiving, Triumphant, etc. And go with what gives you the greater sense of peace.
From my experience, Universal Reconciliation came as an answer to prayers that went on for three years straight. I had peace, and joy, and elation this underlying sort of "can this be true? I so truly hope it is! But what of the word...?". I went with peace, and I haven't looked back since, and now Eternal Damnationalism seems like a blight - a bit like how when you grow up and look back at your younger mistakes, you see how what you thought was right at the time, was icky and bleh.
But God wrote the book, so if you haven't already, pray this prayer:
"Reveal yourself, who are you? Is your grace sufficient, and power mighty enough to save the world?"
Quote from: Lefein on October 24, 2010, 09:24:09 PM
My advice from experience is; "Go with peace"
Thank you :) My most constant prayer is that God protect me from being deceived, and that He shows me Truth plainly and clearly so that even I can understand. He is a very gracious and merciful God. :HeartThrob:
Lefein, I like this,
"Conclusion?
Aionian chastisement, or world-lasting chastisement is an existential phrase pertaining to the nature of the circumstances; You will under go a purifying change, that change will take as long as it needs to take."
:cloud9: I like that too.... :thumbsup:
Quote from: LS on October 24, 2010, 09:12:17 PM
I certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen.
I really don't think that readers nor listeners of the Word need to have study tools at-hand to correctly understand. I think the most casual listener will hear and correctly understand what is being conveyed. Deeper study and more spiritual meanings aren't necessarily "wrong" and can bring deeper levels of understanding, but in my opinion they can't negate the more obvious and simpler meaning.
That is what I come back to anyway. I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct. I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it. That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself :)
I agree with all these well spoken words. And of course, I have gone through a similar sifting process to arrive where I am (not to say you will arrive here). I especially agree with your point about not having to manipulate too much, and I personally think way to much weight is put on the translation issues. I stand in this testimony because of 8 simple portions of scripture. I could not manipulate their combined weight. If I cannot take these at face value the the Bible would be no longer of any value to me as an inerant source for doctrine. To be brief I will list them with no commentary, but with some emphasized words. (Everything emphasized in blue is one word, "pas", a greek word meaning- all inclusive, everything; Strong's)
All from NASB
1) In all wisdom and insight He made known to us
the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness(completion) of the times, that is,
the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined
according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
(Eph 1:8-11)
2) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of
all creation. For
by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--
all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in
everything. For
it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:15-20)
3)My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and
not for ours only, but also for those of the whole(holos- complete, entirety; Strong's) world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)
4)For
God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN?
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)
5)For
as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all(pas en pas). (1Co 15:22-28)
6)For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:9-11)
7)
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)
8)And He who sits on the throne said,
"Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
(Rev 21:5)
It takes way too much manipulation to see all these scriptures differently. The following twisted verses are the manipulations I hear all the time.... Behold I am making a few things new. An administration suitable to only this age, the summing up of a few things in Christ. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess just before they get thrown into eternal torment. He Himself is the propitiation of our sins and for a small part of the worlds. He will turn a few things over to the Father so that God may be all in a few and the rest will burn forever. For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and to reconcile a few things back to Himself through the blood of His cross. As in Adam all died, in a different way only a few will live through Christ. Having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who makes some things work according to the counsel of His will.
There are more verses I could put up here and the temptation is great, but I will leave that to the Holy Spirit, or another day. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and God our Father.
[quote author=LS
Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it. Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion. I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices. [/quote]
Hi,
The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end". This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 01:04:18 AM
The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end". This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.
CHB
Hi CHB ... I don't really agree that it must have no beginning; I think it could mean that once it begins, it never ends. But if you don't like that translation, here are the other options:
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
You might like "perpetual" better? But in any case,
none of these are a temporary nature. :dontknow: I do realize that people on this site dispute those definitions, but I find that a difficult thing to accept. To me, it comes awfully close to saying that God could not preserve His Word well enough or accurately enough for all to hear it and to know Truth.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 25, 2010, 07:12:32 AM
I agree with all these well spoken words. And of course, I have gone through a similar sifting process to arrive where I am (not to say you will arrive here). I especially agree with your point about not having to manipulate too much, and I personally think way to much weight is put on the translation issues. I stand in this testimony because of 8 simple portions of scripture. I could not manipulate their combined weight. If I cannot take these at face value the the Bible would be no longer of any value to me as an inerant source for doctrine. To be brief I will list them with no commentary, but with some emphasized words. (Everything emphasized in blue is one word, "pas", a greek word meaning- all inclusive, everything; Strong's)
Hi eaglesway - Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. As I read it and considered it, I can honestly say that I see no conflict of any of those passages with my belief of annihilation.
We know that Jesus' enemies (including death) will be destroyed:
24 then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15)
I don't think any of us believes this is a temporary destruction for a time; I think we all believe this destruction is permanent, forevermore, never ending.
I believe this passage of Revelation tells us about the final and neverending destruction of death. And if death, then I believe the same must apply to Hades and anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life:
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20)
Hello LS, good to see you back. I once belived in annhilation, because I believed in the soul sleep, but after changing my soul sleep idea to the idea of immortal spirit, I then thought annhilation cannot be, otherwise the lake of fire = ET. But now I have gone back to annhilation, but also have kept the immortal spirit idea, so I believe it is possible for the immortal spirit to be destroyed in the lake of fire and no longer exist. But I don't know just yet concerning universal salvation I did believe a few weeks ago but know not so sure, but I belive that God will save, those who will, but don't know how or if he will save those who don't want Him.
:2c:
Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants,
tossed back and forth by the waves,
and blown here and there by every wind of teaching
and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2010, 02:14:58 AM
Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants,
tossed back and forth by the waves,
and blown here and there by every wind of teaching
and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
I think this is unfair, because UR is very new to me very new indeed, even though I did first learn about it in my first walk with Christ when I was a christian baby from an unorthodox source. Something like this a radical doctrine to the church tradition sometimes takes years of growing and teaching. I only had the possobility that all men will be saved about a month back and only about a week ago I have had doubts.
Before one has a position on solid ground it takes many months and years of practice, otherwise the winds will break down the house. In particular, pionners, new inventions, new ideas, philosophies, revelations these are often thought of and received by open minds and the dangers of having an open mind include entertaining other ideas that are sometimes opposed to their other relevations. The danger of If one does not have an open mind then they close their mind to new revelations from scripture being stuck in one place. So to me if there are new revelations concerning the lake of fire and what it means I would prefer to know the truth of God, rather than the prepossitions of men or the doctrines of a particular group, I hope this does not offend you, that I would prefer the truth of God than error and this is one reason I am here, because many truths are here but not ALL TRUTH for that is impossible, only God has All truth.
You may quietly rest knowing that it impossible for you to offend me.
Hi Thinktank - we know that the soul can be destroyed:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Don't allow anyone to make you feel bullied into one belief or another. Keep seeking, asking and praying ... ask God to protect you from being deceived and to show you what He desires for you to know. :grouppray:
Amen LS,
Because when the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.
:cloud9: I don't know who said it now, but I think "age-enduring" is the best explanation I've seen......
<——— until ———>
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 26, 2010, 03:04:01 AM
Amen LS,
Because when the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.
Are you having a bad day, Beloved Servant? I haven't seen this side of you before, but I'm not a regular here either. I'm sorry if the discussion troubled you; may God bless you and grant you peace. :grouppray:
Bad day???
No, I never have bad days!
I'm more like a barometer responding to the surrounding atmosphere.
1...2...3... www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRbA9iVKm3w&feature=related
Quote from: LS on October 26, 2010, 03:00:55 AM
Hi Thinktank - we know that the soul can be destroyed:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Don't allow anyone to make you feel bullied into one belief or another. Keep seeking, asking and praying ... ask God to protect you from being deceived and to show you what He desires for you to know. :grouppray:
Don't worry, protection from deception is something strong God as given me although never hurts to keep growing in an area where one perceives to be strong. I'm here at tentmaker not to be deceived but to see how the idea of universal salvation can be in harmony with scriptures such as those above, I stay here because I am attracted to the idea that all are saved and the teaching is in harmony with Gods character of forgiving all which is the meat of Jesus teachings and reconciling all things to himself, but some aspects about that concerns me also because the teaching opens up other questions such as the nature of darkness and its purpose and whether God will do a "Saul experience" for every person in the lake of fire, allowing them to call upon Jesus, which is something I'm praying about, maybe this is what the lake of fire is about and the devil does not have a sin offering and is no longer has any light, therefore is extinguished, but human beings even someone as evil as hitler would have elements of light within them that can be saved, it just needs the darkness to be removed from his spirit via fire and the blood of Jesus christ. So reconciling all things to christ may not include the devil because he is not of Christ or of his light but we human beings are created in Christs image and have a perfect sin offering for all our sins and once the lake of fire burns away the outer garments of deception, only the inner image of Christ remains. Perhaps that's what those scriptures mean, that an evil soul will be purged so much of their identity, that they are more or less destroyed and that people who are saved now can keep their indentity of their eartlhy life of doing good works, therefore their souls are deemed saved.
Thanks for praying Ls, you have a great heart for prayer and God has given you a great gift, may your prayers be a blessing to all that you pray for in double portion in the name of YAHushua. amen
What purpose would it serve God to torture anyone ceaselessly?
There is also quite a large gap between chapter 4 of Revelation, and chapter 20 of the same book.
LS believes in annihilation, not Eternal torment
The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.
Quote from: Lefein on October 26, 2010, 06:25:54 AM
The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.
...the word "tormented" is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense. It is this latter usage from which the translators derived the English "torment." www.harvestherald.com
Quote
Hi eaglesway - Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. As I read it and considered it, I can honestly say that I see no conflict of any of those passages with my belief of annihilation.
We know that Jesus' enemies (including death) will be destroyed:
24 then comes the end, 10 when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15)
I don't think any of us believes this is a temporary destruction for a time; I think we all believe this destruction is permanent, forevermore, never ending.
On the contrary many of us believe exactly that the lake of fire and brimstone(theon) is for purging, correction, consuming darkness till every knee bow-every enemy SUBJECTED so that GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL.
26 The last enemy to be destroyedG2673 is death The word is katargeo, it is used 28 times in the NT. 24 times it is translated "abolished"; "made of none effect"; "put away"; "done away"; "made void"; "delivered" and others.
It is used of the law in Rom 7....made of none effect by Christ
It is used of that which is partial(tongues, prophecy) in 1 Cor 13....when that which is perfect is come that which is partial will be "done away"
That which is perfect will have come when GOD IS ALL IN ALL. Then death, the last adversary will be "made void" because the summing up of all things in Christ will have been completed and God will be all in all.
As the law was made of no use by the coming of grace, so death will no longer be needed when God is all in all.
1 Cor 15 teaches that 1)As in Adam all died so also in Christ shall all be made alive 2) Every enemy will be SUBJECTED and RETURNED TO THE FATHER so that GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL- it is obvious in the context those subjected ones will be in among those in whom God becomes ALL because He will do that IN ALL, because from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
The word in Matthew 10:28 "destroy" body and soul in gehenna is "appolumi". The "lost(appollumi) sheep of Israel" will all be gathered into Christ- some willingly, some as through the flames.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
one UR understanding;
"That following the first resurrection there will be a 1000 year reign of Jesus with His faithful. This period of time and the following ages are designated as the great 'Day of Judgment', and the 'Times of the Restitution of All Things', in which all the dead will be raised and judged according to their works. Those who have died in ignorance will be given the opportunity to come to Christ and obtain salvation. Judgment is made according to one's works, their submission to Christ, his rulership...The truth of the Gospel will be testified to all who have neither heard nor understood. The wicked one who rises to judgment failing to make restitution for sin and come to repentance will suffer punishment in the second death. This 1000 year day of judgment and the ages which follow restore the earth to the condition which was lost in Eden, and establish righteousness and human perfection which Adam lost for his unborn posterity; the final outcome being the ultimate reconciliation of all creation to its Creator and the final destruction of the sinful flesh, after which death is abolished."
www.harvestherald.com
"let him who hath an ear hear what the Spirit says unto the churches..."
Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 01:04:18 AM
[quote author=LS
Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it. Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion. I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices.
Hi,
The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end". This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.
CHB
I think
Eternal: Without a beginning or end.
Everlasting: Has a begining but no end.
Age: With a beginning and an end.
Quote from: jabcat on October 26, 2010, 06:42:20 AM
Quote from: Lefein on October 26, 2010, 06:25:54 AM
The verses say, "Torment" however rather than "destroyed" or perished, or lost, or some other variation.
...the word "tormented" is the Greek basanizo, which originally meant a means of testing and examination. It was used of a touchstone for metals, and later to scourge in a general sense. It is this latter usage from which the translators derived the English "torment." www.harvestherald.com
Hence, I put "Torment" in quotes. :icon_joker:
Hi WW,
Everlasting: is eternal. Eternal is everlasting. Both are without beginning or end. I looked up the word eternal and here is what I found.
Eternal 1. without beginning or end: everlasting. timeless. forever the same.
Eternity 1. the quality state or fact of being eternal: continuance without end. 2. infinite time: time without beginning or end. 3. a long period of time that seems endless.
How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?
I think all the words such as eternal, forever, everlasting, eternity, are without beginning or end.
I think the translators just made a mistake in putting these words in places that they shouldn't be. Think about it, most translators believed in hell, did they not? I think the meaning of these words got lost somewhere along the way. Have you ever said, "it took me forever to do such and such"? Well, did it really take forever? These words can only apply to God but just like everything else man has taken them and applied them to himself.
CHB
Out of curiousity myself, I'd like to ask you LS: (and forgive some of the repetitive long-hand, I just want to be absolutely specific in some areas)
Of what good purpose would annihilation serve Yahweh?
How many shall be annihilated?
What victory is there for God in Annihilation; the abolition of existence - which is the most absolute form of death; being the death, destruction, making absent of life, or being the body, soul, spirit, and very existence of an individual; if Death, even Absolute Death by annihilation robs God forever of his goal and will?
God's will, and goal:
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
How can Death be defeated if it forever robs God, and continues to rob God even from its own grave? God is the god of recompense, when we lose things for his sake he gives us back double, or multiples. Ultimate victory does not come until recompense is given.
If Death (who has robbed God of his creations, the children of Adam, by separating them from him and stealing them from him through sin, vice, physical death, ignorance, and otherwise) does not allow God to recompense himself for all of the stuff that Death has stolen from him by letting God take everyone he has made, and increase them in quality (glorify them, purify them, and make them better in general) so as to recompense himself double what Death stole from him;
Zec 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
;Then how shall he gain the victory over Death? Being perpetually robbed of his own recompense?
Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 06:08:16 PM
How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?
CHB
What are you saying? That God cannot do something that never was, something new, that will never end? I see it differently. I think that there are things He has begun(created) that will endure through out all ages and beyond(forever, eternal) as death is swallowed up by immortality and God fills all things with life. I kno some believe that whatever is eternal(including us) always was and will be. But I believe in sovereign creation, and that God is generating(genesis) new things(beings) within this bubble of kosmos and aion that is presently suspended in the midst of eternity. When the last enemy (death/termination/finiteness) is "destroyed"(katargeo-done away/made void) everything will be suffused with eternity, even as we already are by virtue of the reconciliation[he that believes in me has passed from death(finiteness) unto life(immortality)]. Whew.....the word is awesome, and we see through a glass darkly, eh?
As to everlasting and eternal.....
And these shall go away into everlastingG166 punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46)
Here we can see clearly that eternal and everlasting are the same greek word (aionios) taken from the same Hebrew word "olam" which simply means "unseen" or "other world(ly)" or "beyond the horizon".
Aionios is translated eternal 40+ times and everlasting 20+ times, so there is virtually no distintive use in the English from the KJV.
Aidos appears in two places. In Romans 1:20 it is "eternal", in Jude 6 it is "everlasting", so, no help there.
The NASB renders aionios and aidos both as eternal in every single usage.
Youngs Literal uses eternal only once, for aidos in romans 1:20 and everlasting only once, for aidos in Jude:6 (go figure :dontknow:) and uses age-during for aionios the rest of the time.
It seems that we have to go a little deeper in word study to get anywhere near a consistant understanding. It is not good enough to beat one another over the head :hammerhead: :bdh: with ideas extrapolated from what the Engish "might" mean :popout:
:2c:
Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 06:08:16 PM
Hi WW,
Everlasting: is eternal. Eternal is everlasting. Both are without beginning or end. I looked up the word eternal and here is what I found.
Eternal 1. without beginning or end: everlasting. timeless. forever the same.
Eternity 1. the quality state or fact of being eternal: continuance without end. 2. infinite time: time without beginning or end. 3. a long period of time that seems endless.
How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?
I think all the words such as eternal, forever, everlasting, eternity, are without beginning or end.
I think the translators just made a mistake in putting these words in places that they shouldn't be. Think about it, most translators believed in hell, did they not? I think the meaning of these words got lost somewhere along the way. Have you ever said, "it took me forever to do such and such"? Well, did it really take forever? These words can only apply to God but just like everything else man has taken them and applied them to himself.
CHB
Hi back CHB :bgdance:
Everlasting:
1 : lasting or
enduring through all time : ETERNAL *what a peace is mine, leaning on the everlasting arms— E.A.Hoffman* *belief in unchanging and everlasting laws governing the physical universe*
2 a (1) : continuing indefinitely or during a long period : PERPETUAL *reached the zone of everlasting snow* *the one thing that seemed to her immutable and everlasting was the poverty of the soil— Ellen Glasgow* (2) of a plant : retaining its form or color for a long time when dried *everlasting flowers* b : wearisome or tedious from repetition : CONTINUAL *she had grown tired of his everlasting whimpering— O.E.R*lvaag*
3 : wearing indefinitely : DURABLE *everlasting cotton homespun*
Yep I've read the word Eternal....
"Enduring through all time"
Eternal
1 a : having infinite duration: (1) : infinite in past and future duration : having
no beginning or end *the eternal God is your dwelling place— Deut 33:27 (Revised Standard Version)* (2) : infinite in past duration : having no beginning (3) : infinite in future duration : having no end *the soldiers were convinced that whatever happened, the end of the war would mark the opening of an era of eternal peace— R. de R. de Sales* b : having infinite duration and characterized by abiding fellowship with God *good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?— Mk 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)* c : of or relating to eternity *this eternal blazon must not be to ears of flesh and blood— Shakespeare*
2 a : continued without intermission : CEASELESS, UNCHANGING *and fires eternal in thy temple shine— John Dryden* b : seemingly endless often to the point of weariness or disgust : constantly recurring : INTERMINABLE *there was also the eternal waiting in hotels for appointments with officials— Herbert Hoover*
3 archaic : INFERNAL, DAMNED — used as an intensive *some eternal villain T devised this slander— Shakespeare*
4 : valid or existing at all times : IMMUTABLE, UNCHANGEABLE *right and wrong were eternal verities T which could not be changed and must not be tampered with— O.E.R*lvaag*
5 : outside or beyond temporal relationships : discrete from all times : TIMELESS *a color is eternal— A.N.Whitehead*
That sounds different to me.
From another dictionary ncluding old defenitions
eternal, a. and n.
(iːˈtɜːnəl)
Forms: 4 eternale, -eel, (5 eternaile Sc.), 5–7 eternall(e, 6 æternall, 4– eternal.
[a. OF. eternal, -el (mod. F. éternel) = Pr. and Sp. eternal, It. eternale, ad. late L. æternālis, f. ætern-us: see eterne and -al1.
In philosophical and theological uses the word is the representative of Gr. αἰώνιος, f. αἰών age, æon.]
A.A adj.
1. a.A.1.a Infinite in past and future duration; without beginning or end; that always has existed and always will exist: esp. of the Divine Being.
c 1470 Henry Wallace ii. 180 Eternaile God, quhy suld I thus wayis de. 1524 Abbot Malvern in R. Glouc. (1724) 584 The Eternall King‥shall reward everychone, Which‥this wretched world doth despise. 1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 2 b, We shall se the father of heuen and‥his eternall sone our lord Jesu chryst. 1611 Bible Deut. xxxiii. 27 The eternall God is thy refuge, and vnderneath are the euerlasting armes. 1667 Milton P.L. i. 25 That to the highth of this great Argument I may assert th' Eternal Providence. a 1729 Clarke Serm. I. iv. (R.), The eternal, supreme cause, has‥a perfect‥ comprehension of all things. a 1800 Blair Serm. III. xix. (R.), The ancient philosophers‥maintained the eternal existence of matter. 1847 Emerson Repr. Men, Goethe Wks. (Bohn) I. 392 The old Eternal Genius who built the world.
b.A.1.b By those who hold that time, i.e. the relation of succession, pertains merely to things as viewed by finite intelligence, and not to absolute reality, the word as used of God or His actions is interpreted in the sense: Not conditioned by time; not subject to time relations.
Phrases in which the word has properly this sense are, however, often used in religious language without any definite recognition of the metaphysical theory which they imply, being taken as figurative expressions of the divine omniscience.
1651 Hobbes Leviath. 20 Names that signifie nothing‥as‥eternal—Now, and the like canting of Schoolemen. 1793 T. Taylor Sallust xiii. 64 note, The eternal (τὸ αἰώνιον) says Olympiodorus, is a total now, exempt from the past and future circulations of time, and totally subsisting in a present abiding now; but the perpetual (τὸ ἀίδιον) subsists indeed always, but is beheld in the three parts of time, past, present, and future. a 1834 Coleridge, This eternal (i.e. timeless) act [the sacrifice of Christ] He manifested in time. 1875 Jowett Plato (ed. 2) III. 620 The past and future are created species of time, which we unconsciously but wrongly transfer to the eternal essence; for we say indeed that he was, he is, he will be, but the truth is that 'he is' alone truly expresses him.
2.A.2 Infinite in past duration; that has always existed.
1690 Locke Hum. Underst. iv. x. §10 If we suppose bare matter without motion, eternal; motion can never begin to be. 1707 Curios. in Husb. & Gard. 245 Asserting the World to be Eternal, in Contradiction to the express Texts of the Holy Scripture.
3. a.A.3.a Infinite in future duration; that always will exist; everlasting, endless.
c 1386 Chaucer Sec. Nun's T. 34 Thy maydens deeth, that wan thurgh hire merite The eterneel lyf. 1526 Tindale 2 Cor. iv. 18 For thinges which are sene, are temporall: but thynges whiche are not sene, are eternall. 1552 Abp. Hamilton Catech. (1884) 3 All levand in ane hoip of the eternal glore. 1579 Spenser Sheph. Cal. Dec. 90 The power of herbs‥which be wont to work eternall sleep. 1660 Jer. Taylor Worthy Commun. i. iv. 74 Christ was‥admitted to the celestial and eternall priesthood in heaven. 1752 Hume Pol. Disc. x. 155 There is very little ground‥to conclude the universe eternal or incorruptible. 1827 Pollok Course T. x, To the evil‥Eternal recompense of shame and woe. 1834 J. H. Newman Par. Serm. (1839) I. ii. 18 Judgment upon the eternal soul. 1850 Mrs. Stowe Uncle Tom's C. xl, An eternal, inexorable lapse of moments is ever hurrying the day of the evil to an eternal night, and the night of the just to an eternal day.
¶The New Testament expressions eternal life, death, punishment, etc. are here referred to sense 3, this being the sense in which the adj. in such contexts is ordinarily taken. Other meanings have, however, been assigned to it: (a) Some theologians interpret it in the etymological sense, which is also that of Gr. αἰώνιος, 'lasting for an age or ages'; (b) others regard the adj. as expressive of a notion of quality in the conditions which it designates, either in addition to, or instead of, the notion of endless duration (cf. 1 b).
1853 Maurice Theol. Essays (ed. 2) 451 Knowledge constitutes Eternal Life, and‥the loss of it is Eternal Death. 1882 Farrar Early Chr. II. 366 The word eternal, far from being a mere equivalent for 'everlasting', never means 'everlasting' at all, except by reflexion from the substantives to which it is joined. 1885 T. C. Finlayson Biol. Relig. 87 A human soul might be immortal‥and yet might never have what is distinctively called 'eternal life'—the true spiritual life of fellowship with God.
b.A.3.b transf. Pertaining to eternal things; having eternal consequences.
1605 Shakes. Ham. i. v. 21 This eternall blason must not be To eares of flesh and bloud. 1732 Law Serious C. iii. (ed. 2) 44 He has liv'd without any reflection‥in things of such eternal moment.
4. a.A.4.a rhetorically. Said of things to which endless continuance is ascribed hyperbolically or in relative sense. Eternal City (L. urbs æterna): a designation of Rome, occurring in Ovid and Tibullus, and frequent in the official documents of the Empire.
c 1460 Fortescue Abs. & Lim. Mon. (1714) 84 Their Renowne wol be eternal. 1555 Eden Decades W. Ind. (Arb.) 49 An eternal testimonie of absolute glory. 1609 Holland Amm. Marcel. xxii. ix. 202 A certain region or quarter of that eternall citie [urbis æternæ] Rome. 1697 Dryden Virg. Past. x. 71 To‥climb the frozen Alps, and tread th' eternal Snow. 1789 Wolcott (P. Pindar) Subjects for Painters, Song to Delia, O nymph, th' eternal tear shall flow; The sigh unceasing breathe of thee. 1792 Burke Pres. State Affairs Wks. VII. 106 These accounts‥tend to make an eternal rupture between the powers. 1793 Trial T. Muir at Edinb. for Sedit. 33 The Lord Advocate‥declared that his imprisonment would be eternal. 1823 Lamb Elia Ser. i. xiii. (1865) 106 Delightful eternal commonplaces, which 'having been will always be'. 1844 Mem. Babylonian P'cess II. 301 Hours‥passed in the bosom of the eternal mountains. 1850 Alison Hist. Europe IX. lvii. 5 Stupendous mountains, whose summits‥wrapped in eternal snow, almost overhang the lake. 1869 'Mark Twain' Innoc. Abr. (1870) xxvii. 218 Michael Angelo‥designed the Eternal City. 1876 Freeman Norm. Conq. V. xxiv. 390 At no moment‥has the Parliament‥ever given up its eternal right to regulate the royal succession at its will. 1887 Stevenson Underwoods i. xxxv. 69 Eternal granite hewn from the living isle.
b.A.4.b Familiarly, implying weariness or disgust: That seems to be going on for ever; perpetual, incessant, always recurring.
1787 T. Jefferson Writ. (1859) II. 164 My answers to the eternal applications I receive. 1825 Cobbett Rur. Rides (1885) I. 374 Respecting whose proceedings we read eternal columns in the broad-sheet. 1837 Thackeray Ravenswing i, Mrs. C. was sipping her eternal tea. 1884 Dunckley in Manch. Exam. 26 May 6/2 Perhaps more serious reading would then dethrone the eternal novel.
c.A.4.c nonce-use. Having an 'eternal' resolve.
1606 Shakes. Tr. & Cr. v. ii. 166 Never did young man fancy With so eternal and so fix'd a soul.
d.A.4.d eternal triangle: see triangle n.
5.A.5 Of truths, principles, divine or natural laws, etc.: Valid through all eternity, immutable, unalterable. Esp. in phr. eternal truths or eternal verities, necessary truths, as being valid at all times.
[1604 Hooker Eccl. Pol. i. §2 The law wherby he [God] worketh is eternall, and therfore can have no shew or colour of mutabilitie.] a 1688 Cudworth (title) A Treatise concerning Eternal and Immutable Morality. 1690 Locke Hum. Und. iv. xi. 323 Propositions that are once true, must needs be eternal Verities. 1694 Ibid. (ed. 2) iv. xi. 366 Propositions are therefore call'd Eternal Truths, not because they are Eternal Propositions actually formed.‥ But because being once made‥they will, whenever they can be supposed to be made again at any time‥always actually be true. a 1700 Dryden (J.), Hobbes believed the eternal truths which he opposed. 1791 Burke Let. to Memb. Nat. Assembly Wks. VI. 64 It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men [etc.]. 1847 Emerson Repr. Men, Napoleon Wks. (Bohn) I. 381 It was the nature of things, the eternal law of man‥which baulked and ruined him. 1855 G. Brimley Ess., Tennyson 82 To exhibit some of the eternal elements of tragedy still in operation among us. 1883 F. H. Bradley Logic II. ii. i. 289 No vehicle conveys the eternal verities half so well as does the labyrinth of a fantastic genealogy. 1900 B. Russell Philos. of Leibniz ii. 18 The eternal truths, he says, are all hypothetical. 1960 K. Amis Take a Girl like You xxvi. 301 'Do you think it's right to give up your principles for somebody you're in love with?' 'I say, we are getting down to the eternal verities, aren't we?'
6.A.6 eternal flower, a name for the Xeranthemum; also called 'everlasting'.
1794 Martyn Rousseau's Bot. xxvi. 388 Eternal Flower has an imbricate calyx with the inner scales membranaceous.
7.A.7 'Used to express extreme abhorrence' (Schmidt). Now vulgar or dial.
1601 Shakes. Jul. C. i. ii. 160 There was a Brutus once, that would haue brook'd Th' eternall Diuell to keepe his State in Rome. 1604 ― Oth. iv. ii. 130, I will be hang'd, if some eternall Villaine Haue not deuis'd this Slander. a 1825 Forby Voc. E. Anglia, Eternal, infernal, damned‥'Oh, he is an eternal rogue'!
8.A.8 quasi-adv.
1611 Shakes. Wint. T. i. ii. 64 We were‥ Two Lads, that thought there was no more behind, But‥to be Boy eternall. 1614 Rowlands Fooles Bolt 36 Such sable colours should be worne, for them that do eternall mourne. 1671 Milton P.R. iv. 391 What kingdom, Real or allegoric, I discern not; Nor when: eternal sure—as without end, Without beginning.
B.B quasi-n. and n.
1.B.1 the Eternal: God, the Deity. Cf. Fr. l'Eternel (transf. Heb. yhwh Jehovah).
1582 North tr. Gueuara's Diall Princes 189 The eternall [ed. 1557 eternal creator] created this world in short space. 1591 Shakes. Two Gent. v. iv. 81 By Penitence th' Eternalls wrath's appeas'd. 1594 Hooker Eccl. Pol. i. i. (1611) 3 The lawe whereby the Eternall himselfe doth worke. 1667 Milton P.L. ii. 46 His trust was with th' Eternal to be deem'd Equal in strength. 1724 T. Richers Royal Geneal. Spain 200 Having been summon'd to appear before the Tribunal of the Eternal.
†2.B.2 = eternity. Chiefly in phrase from eternal = L. ab æterno. Obs.
1622 S. Ward Life of Faith in Death (1627) 29, I was from eternall a sheepe destined to the slaughter. 1633 W. Struther True Happiness 65 Albeit we be in God from eternall. 1742 Young Nt. Th. iii. 34 Eternal is at Hand, To swallow Time's Ambitions.
3.B.3 pl. Eternal things.
1649 Roberts Clavis Bibl. 391 These temporals, spirituals, and eternals‥must be prudently distinguished. 1652 Gaule Magastrom. 154 Angells‥administring not only in temporalls and in spiritualls, but likewise to eternalls. 1742 Young Nt. Th. ii. 340 All God-like Passion for Eternals quench'd; All Relish of Realities expir'd. 1840 De Quincey Essenes Wks. X. 265 A body of men so truly spiritual in the eternals of their creed, whatever might be the temporals of their practice. 1885 J. Martineau Ethical Th. I. 6 A certain stock of eternals transmigrates through various forms.
everlasting, a. and n.
(ɛvəˈlɑːstɪŋ, -ˈlæst-)
[f. ever adv. + lasting.]
A.A adj.
1. a.A.1.a Lasting for ever; infinite in future duration; endless; = eternal A. 3.
1340 Ayenb. 189 Guoþ ye acorsede in-to þe greate uere eurelestinde ine helle. 1509 Paternoster, Ave, & Creed A iij, I trowe in ye‥forgyuenes of synnes agen rysynge of flesshe, and euerlastynge lyf. 1552 Lyndesay Monarche iv. 5145 Thay depart from cair and cummer‥Tyll Ioy and euirlestand lyfe. 1605 Shakes. Macb. ii. iii. 22 Some‥that goe the Primrose way to th' euerlasting Bonfire. a 1668 Denham (J.), What a trifle is a moment's breath, Laid in the scale with everlasting death! 1758 S. Hayward Serm. i. 2 We are in danger of falling into everlasting misery. 1781 Cowper Truth 41 Too busy‥to wait On the sad theme, their everlasting state. 1837 Carlyle Sart. Res. ii. ix, Love not pleasure; love God. This is the Everlasting Yea. 1838 Lytton Leila i. v, I would all the gold of earth were sunk into the everlasting pit.
b.A.1.b Extended to the full sense of the L. æternus, so as to imply past as well as future eternity; = eternal A. 1. (In the examples following this sense is merely contextual; but cf. from everlasting in B. 1.)
1382 Wyclif Gen. xxi. 33 Abraham‥inwardli clepide‥the name of euerlastynge God. 1535 Coverdale ibid., And Abraham‥called vpon the name of the Lorde ye euerlastinge God. 1578 Gude & Godlie Ball. (1868) 127 Thow onlie Maker of all thing, Thou euerlastand licht. 1611 Bible Isa. ix. 6 The mightie God, The euerlasting Father.
2. a.A.2.a Used hyperbolically or in relative sense. Cf. eternal 4.
1382 Wyclif Ezek. xxxv. 9, I shall bytake thee into wildernessis euerlastynge [solitudines sempiternas]. c 1400 Destr. Troy 9569 Ye worship might haue, With a lose euer⁓lastond, when your lyff endis. c 1460 Fortescue Abs. & Lim. Mon. (1714) 84 To make their Rewards, everlasting in ther Heyrs. c 1532 G. Du Wes Introd. Fr. in Palsgr. 1019 To‥Henry‥kyng‥of all Englande‥be laude everlastyng, honour without ende. 1628 Hobbes Thucyd. (1822) 13 It [this history] is compiled rather for an everlasting possession than to be rehearsed for a prize. 1734 Pope Ess. Man iv. 284 See Cromwell, damn'd to everlasting fame! 1832 Lytton Eugene A. i. x, The rivulet‥descends from the everlasting mountains. 1839 De Quincey Recoll. Lakes Wks. 1862 II. 217 These mighty gates of everlasting rock. 1873 Slang Dict. s.v., The barefooted children about Seven Dials‥are said to wear everlasting shoes and stockings. Everlasting staircase, the treadmill. 1882 M. E. Braddon Mt. Royal I. iii. 79 It is the most everlasting kind of beauty, is it not?
b.A.2.b Constant, perpetual, unceasing. Often implying weariness or disgust: Interminable, endlessly recurring; = eternal A. 4 b.
1688 S. Penton Guardian's Instruct. 28 What‥were the Occasions of the present great Contempt of Matrimony‥The everlasting Din of Mother-in-law. 1716 Lady M. W. Montague Lett. I. vi. 19 The foundation of these everlasting disputes turns entirely upon rank. 1725 De Foe Voy. round World (1840) 269 It is never dark here, you are now come to the country of everlasting day. 1801 Southey Thalaba v. xxii, From Ait's bitumen-lakes‥ascends That everlasting roar. 1833 H. Martineau Brooke Farm vii. 87 There was an everlasting boiling, of the kettle in the morning, the potatoes for dinner, and the kettle again in the afternoon. 1837 Lytton E. Maltrav. 4 On which there hung an everlasting frown. 1838–9 Hallam Hist. Lit. I. i. i. §38. 35 The tedious descriptions of spring, and the everlasting nightingale.
3.A.3 Indefinitely durable, that will 'never' wear out (see B. 3). everlasting trimming: an embroidered edging for underclothing.
1590–1607 [see B. 3]. 1882 Daily News 4 Mar., The demand is fully maintained for everlasting trimmings. Mod. I can recommend this material; it's everlasting wear.
4.A.4 In various plant-names: a.A.4.a Retaining shape and colour when dried; as in everlasting flower, a name given to some species of cudweed (Gnaphalium), but more commonly to various species of Helichrysum; cf. Fr. immortelle; †everlasting life: 'American Cudweed' (Antennaria margaritacea). b.A.4.b Perennial; as in everlasting pea (Lathyrus latifolius and other species), †everlasting grass (Onobrychis sativa, sainfoin).
1677 Plot Oxfordsh. 154 Commonly called Sainctfoin or Everlasting grass. 1705 Tate tr. Cowley's Hist. Plants (J.), Witness the everlasting-pease and scarlet bean. 1772–84 Cook Voy. (1790) II. 391 The everlasting-flower‥when it is plucked it cannot be perceived to fade. 1783 Ainsworth Lat. Dict. (Morell) i. s.v., Life everlasting, Gnaphalium Americanum. 1861 S. Thomson Wild Fl. iii. (ed. 4) 200 The yellow meadow vetchling, or everlasting pea. 1877 M. Arnold Poems, Heine's Grave, Crisp everlasting-flowers, Yellow and black, on the graves. 1882 Garden 25 Mar. 202/2 The Everlasting Flowers‥are all beautiful border plants.
5.A.5 quasi-adv. = everlastingly 2 and 4. †a.A.5.a For ever, throughout eternity (obs.). b.A.5.b U.S. slang. Very, exceedingly, excessively.
1482 Monk of Evesham (Arb.) 67 Some of hem contynued in euyll‥and now they be euerlasting dampde. 1692 Washington tr. Milton's Def. Pop. x. (1851) 228 This everlasting talkative Advocate of the King. ? 18‥ 'Major J. Downing' May Day in N. York (in Bartlett Dict. Amer.), New York is an everlasting great concern. 1832 S. Smith Major Downing 95, I had rather fight forty New Orleans battles than to govern this everlasting great country one year. 1848 Lowell Lett. I. 136 It's everlasting hot to-day. 1903 K. D. Wiggin Rebecca 262 She'd kick the ladder from out under her, everlastin' quick.
B.B absol. (quasi-n.) and n.
1.B.1 absol. a.B.1.a In phrases for everlasting: for all future time, in perpetuity. to everlasting: to all eternity. b.B.1.b Subsequently with extension as in A. 1 b: from everlasting: from all eternity.
c 1340 Cursor M. 4188 (Fairf.) Þai wille him lede in-to fer lande to be þair bonde for euer-lastande. 1535 Coverdale Ps. xcii [xciii]. 2 From that tyme forth hath thy seate bene prepared, thou art from euerlastinge. a 1600 Hooker (J.), We are in God through‥the love which is born towards us, from everlasting. 1611 Bible Ps. xc. 2 Euen from euerlasting to euerlasting thou art God. 1715 De Foe Fam. Instruct. i. i. (1841) I. 19 You will learn that God is from the beginning, and to the end, from everlasting to everlasting. 1719 Watts Ps. xc., From everlasting thou art God To endless years the same. 1828 K. Digby Broadst. Hon. (1846) II. Tancredus 6 It [chivalry] is now enlisted in the cause of truth and goodness‥to reign for everlasting. 1873 Symonds Grk. Poets x. 317 Love and beauty have belonged to men from everlasting.
2.B.2 the Everlasting: God, the Eternal.
1382 Wyclif Prov. viii. 23 Of the euere lastende [? mistranslation of ab æterno] I am ordeyned‥er the erthe shulde be maad [1388 Fro with out bigynnyng; 1611 from everlasting]. 1602 Shakes. Ham. i. ii. 131 Oh‥that the Euerlasting had not fix't His Cannon 'gainst selfe-slaughter.
3.B.3 n. a.B.3.a A material used in 16–17th c. for the dress of sergeants and catchpoles, app. identical with durance. b.B.3.b In later times, a strong twilled woollen stuff, called also lasting: see quots.
The word in quots. 1590 and 1607 may possibly be adj.; the former app. identifies the material of the 'everlasting garment' with buff, but it is not clear whether this means buff leather or some woollen substitute for it.
1590 Shakes. Com. Err. iv. ii. 33 Adr. Where is thy Master Dromio? S. Dro. A diuell in an euerlasting garment hath him‥a fellow all in buffe. 1607 Fletcher Woman-Hater iv. ii, Were't not for my smooth, soft, silken citizen, I would quit this transitory trade, get me an everlasting robe, sear up my conscience, and turn sergeant. 1738 J. Munn Observ. Brit. Wool & Manuf. 5 Damasks, Russets, Everlasting, Cantiloons, Worsted Plush‥with many other sorts of Plain and Figur'd Stuffs. 1754 South Carolina Gaz. 1 Jan. 4/2 Check mantuas and Irish stuffs, everlastings, bombazine. 1763 Essex Inst. Hist. Coll. XLIX. 142 Had on‥either a pair of black Ever⁓lasting Breeches, or cloth colour'd Leather ones. 1822–35 D. Booth Analyt. Eng. Dict. I. 184 Lasting, or everlasting, is a stout closely-woven worsted stuff, dyed black and other colours, and very much used for ladies' shoes. 1837 Hawthorne Twice-told T. (1851) I. ii. 32 They [pantaloons] must have been made of the stuff called 'everlasting'. a 1845 Barham Ingol. Leg., Jerry Jarvis' Wig, A well-worn‥jacket, of a stuff by drapers most pseudonymously termed 'everlasting'.
4.B.4 = everlasting flower. See A. 4.
1794 Martyn Rousseau's Bot. xxvi. 387 There are several species both of yellow and white Everlastings. 1864 Gilbert & Churchill Excurs. Dolomite Mts. 350 His hat was ornamented with yellow everlastings. 1871 Ramsay Remin. (ed. 18) 17 Wreaths of 'everlasting' placed over graves as emblems of immortality.
So imho there is a difference..
It's a hard to read because teh formatting gets lost when I post the defenition here.
The numbers are the years from the quote.
If you look at the eternal quotes (it are quotes from literature) then you see eternal very often refers to God only.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 26, 2010, 07:00:31 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 26, 2010, 06:08:16 PM
How can something be without a beginning or end and be a long period of time THAT JUST SEEMS ENDLESS also?
CHB
What are you saying? That God cannot do something that never was, something new, that will never end? I see it differently. I think that there are things He has begun(created) that will endure through out all ages and beyond(forever, eternal) as death is swallowed up by immortality and God fills all things with life. I kno some believe that whatever is eternal(including us) always was and will be. But I believe in sovereign creation, and that God is generating(genesis) new things(beings) within this bubble of kosmos and aion that is presently suspended in the midst of eternity. When the last enemy (death/termination/finiteness) is "destroyed"(katargeo-done away/made void) everything will be suffused with eternity, even as we already are by virtue of the reconciliation[he that believes in me has passed from death(finiteness) unto life(immortality)]. Whew.....the word is awesome, and we see through a glass darkly, eh?
As to everlasting and eternal.....
And these shall go away into everlastingG166 punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46)
Here we can see clearly that eternal and everlasting are the same greek word (aionios) taken from the same Hebrew word "olam" which simply means "unseen" or "other world(ly)" or "beyond the horizon".
Aionios is translated eternal 40+ times and everlasting 20+ times, so there is virtually no distintive use in the English from the KJV.
Aidos appears in two places. In Romans 1:20 it is "eternal", in Jude 6 it is "everlasting", so, no help there.
The NASB renders aionios and aidos both as eternal in every single usage.
Youngs Literal uses eternal only once, for aidos in romans 1:20 and everlasting only once, for aidos in Jude:6 (go figure :dontknow:) and uses age-during for aionios the rest of the time.
It seems that we have to go a little deeper in word study to get anywhere near a consistant understanding. It is not good enough to beat one another over the head :hammerhead: :bdh: with ideas extrapolated from what the Engish "might" mean :popout:
:2c:
Hi eaglesway,
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to get at. I think God is generating new things as well. What I was saying was, how can a word mean, without beginning or end and also mean with a beginning or end. I was referring to how the word is used in the Bible and by man.
I am beginning to get dizzy here. :mshock: :sigh: :laughing7:
CHB
Thanks WW,
I repent in dust and ashes. :Peace2:
CHB
Want some of my supply?
I got plenty in stock leftovers from all that stubble :friendstu:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 26, 2010, 07:00:31 PMIt seems that we have to go a little deeper in word study to get anywhere near a consistant understanding. It is not good enough to beat one another over the head :hammerhead: :bdh: with ideas extrapolated from what the Engish "might" mean :popout:
:2c:
If it only was that 'simple'.
If we for example read from the KJV we should figure out the meaning of the word as defined at that time.
But translatiosn are not the word of God. So we need to look at the Greek and Hebrew with word meanings of 2000 years ago.
Unless there are some very clear verses that unlock things it won't be an easy task.
I quoted from 2 respected (I think) dictionaries. They certainly show a difference but also some overlap.
WW, My point, exactly, is that it is not simple. An English dictionary, no matter how respected, is not worth much to us if the "two" words being defined differently were always just one word in the original manuscripts.
CHB, I understand what you were saying when I did not understand what you said it but I really can't understand why you are getting dizzy trying to understand what I said after I misunderstood it. What don't you understand???? :happy3:
Peace y'all, John :o)
Quote from: Aleax on October 19, 2010, 05:46:37 AM
How would you explain "ages of the ages" means "forever" in the 4th chapter but "not forever" in the 20th?
Common versions translating from Hebrew "olam" and "olamim")
Jonah's "forever" lasted for three days (after death he prayed and God answered his prayer, saving him from "hell" KJV.)
That the rest of a bond servant's life was a servitude for ever was mentioned on the first page of this thread.
An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"—
until—the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3);
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is—until—they "were shattered" (Hab. 3:6);
The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be "perpetual"—until—Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13);
Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)—until—the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).
"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4,42)—until—the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);
Israel's judgment lasts "forever"—until—the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).
There a many other examples. Olam and olamim NEVER carry the meaning of no beginning and no ending of infinite time. Eon, eons and eonian NEVER mean infinite neverending time. It didn't for 5 hundred years before Jesus' advent and it didn't for 5 hundred years after (as Martin Cisneros brought out.) They always added modifiers to make them mean endlessness. It is the subsequent distortions from men and their traditions that have put such an idea into people's minds.
Revelation 4
9-10; Concordant Literal Translation...
9 And whenever the animals should be giving glory and honor and thanks to Him Who is sitting on the throne, Who is living for the eons of the eons (Amen!),
10 the twenty-four elders, also, will be falling before Him Who is sitting on the throne and will be worshiping Him Who is living for the eons of the eons (Amen!).
This "ages of the ages" is not eternal or everlasting. Whether 5 aeons, or as has recently been mentioned here, 6 aions, or 8 ages, as one has said was revealed:
ALL the ages or eons end, individually and collectively.
"The end of the eon
s" (Heb 9
26) "the end
s of the eon
s" (1 Co 10
11) "the end of the eon" (Mt 24
3)
Notice the following:
In the past, the secret "hid from the eon
s" (Col.1
26) and generations..."Christ in you, the hope of glory." This indicates at least 2 eons in the past. There is also the present, " this eon" ( Luke 20
34) And the future, "eon
s to come" (Ep 2
7) "...that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
If I consistently put the English word "eternal" or "eternity" in all places where eon, eons or eonian occurs, then these three past, present and future passages I just quoted would say: "the mystery which was concealed
in eternities past,"
this present eternity," and, "
in the eternities to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace..." That just doesn't coordinate with what eternity is supposed to mean.
In Rv 4 we find a throne, but we know from 1 Co 15 the reign of the many-membered body of Christ is until He has subdued everything unto Himself and eliminated what Jesus called "gentile" authority. As I have shown, there is time beyond the eons. Everything filled with God and covered with God, as the waters cover the sea, will mean everything, without being told to do so or ruled over, will function freely and always right in the liberty of the glory that is coming. This is part of God's great goal.
Then, the other passage from Rv 20:
The devil goes forth "to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out of heaven and devoured them.
10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."
The wicked, stirred up by the devil, were just killed by a consuming fire, not put into physical torture, only death. I don't see The Adversary, the devil, to be a human being. Neither is the false propher or the wild beast human. They operate through humans. The beast is the animal urges of the flesh nature. The false prophet is the religious impulses of the flesh. And the devil is the spirit quickening to evil in the flesh.
Day and night will not last for ever. The earth will be consumed with a fervent heat and the heavens will vanish with a loud noise, according to Scripture. This planet is not eternal.
In English, "torment" is more mental than "torture," which is physical. To experience suffering, for example, for 5 minutes at noon and 5 minutes at midnight for what may possibly be a couple of thousands of years of the last 2 eons would fulfill this prophecy.
Good post James. I'm linking to it in the "I'm New Here" thread started by new member Mark9:44,46,48. :thumbsup:
( http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/welcome_central/im_new_here_8818.msg107828.html#msg107828 )
Excellent post reformer..... what then is the phrase(word + modifier) that typically means eternal, everlasting, or forever?
Quote from: eaglesway on October 27, 2010, 05:46:58 AM
WW, My point, exactly, is that it is not simple. An English dictionary, no matter how respected, is not worth much to us if the "two" words being defined differently were always just one word in the original manuscripts.
Then, imo, the start of the task is finding some key verses. Verses that link mankind with eternity. Then look up the original Hebrew or Greek word. With that it takes only a few seconds for me to get a list with all verses using that word.
I think we will find very few such verses. Not even in relation to God Himself. God usually only talks about Himself in close connection to His time limited master plan.
I think there is an article on Gary's site that shows there is only one verse that speaks about eternal (no beginning and end).
BTW if we look at current understanding of science on the subject of time, things gets even more complicated....
QuoteCHB, I understand what you were saying when I did not understand what you said it but I really can't understand why you are getting dizzy trying to understand what I said after I misunderstood it. What don't you understand???? :happy3:
That you hath understanding of your misunderstanding :winkgrin:
John, are you a speech writer for politicians? :icon_jokercolor:
Ref, that's the kind of verses I meant.
Then the next step of the discussion is: do they always point to a limited time?
:cloud9: Excellent, reFORMer...... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Lefein on October 26, 2010, 06:22:48 PM
Out of curiousity myself, I'd like to ask you LS: (and forgive some of the repetitive long-hand, I just want to be absolutely specific in some areas)
Of what good purpose would annihilation serve Yahweh?
How many shall be annihilated?
What victory is there for God in Annihilation; the abolition of existence - which is the most absolute form of death; being the death, destruction, making absent of life, or being the body, soul, spirit, and very existence of an individual; if Death, even Absolute Death by annihilation robs God forever of his goal and will?
God's will, and goal:
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
How can Death be defeated if it forever robs God, and continues to rob God even from its own grave? God is the god of recompense, when we lose things for his sake he gives us back double, or multiples. Ultimate victory does not come until recompense is given.
If Death (who has robbed God of his creations, the children of Adam, by separating them from him and stealing them from him through sin, vice, physical death, ignorance, and otherwise) does not allow God to recompense himself for all of the stuff that Death has stolen from him by letting God take everyone he has made, and increase them in quality (glorify them, purify them, and make them better in general) so as to recompense himself double what Death stole from him;
Zec 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
;Then how shall he gain the victory over Death? Being perpetually robbed of his own recompense?
Hi Lefein - I wanted to come back to your post. Similarly, I might ask what glory it gives God to force those who
hate the Light to be in His presence evermore? Are those who hate Him somehow
forced to love Him? (I know it's nearly impossible for us to imagine anyone coming into His presence and holding onto their rebellion and hate ... and yet we know that angels in His very presence did just that.) So if He forces His love on those who hate it and hate Him, how does that fit with the definition of Love the Bible gives us?
I hope that doesn't come off as a flippant reply to your questions - I honestly do spend time weighing and pondering these things. But every time it makes me think of Job, who poured out his complaints and demanded the LORD explain Himself.
God doesn't really have to explain Himself to me and my deepest thoughts and reasonings fall far too short of really understanding Him and His ways; if I depend on my own reasoning, don't I run the risk of creating a god in my own image? If we all were to learn for a fact that eternal torment is truth, who am I to proclaim that it doesn't bring Him glory?
In the end, I have to base my beliefs on what the Bible says from my own prayerful study and seeking His guidance. And to me, over and over and over the Bible says that
if we follow we will be saved;
if we don't, we will perish.
God's glory WILL be revealed regardless of whether we understand in this life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:36:48 AM
I think
Eternal: Without a beginning or end.
Everlasting: Has a begining but no end.
Age: With a beginning and an end.
:thumbsup: I agree with that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 10:47:11 PM
I quoted from 2 respected (I think) dictionaries. They certainly show a difference but also some overlap.
I think it's a bit like comparing a square and a rectangle....
I hope it makes the understanding easier instead of more complex
A square is a very special rectangle. It's a rectangle with 4 side of the same length. While a regular rectangle has 2 sets of equal length sides.
- A rectangle has 2 sets of sides with equal length.
- A square has 2 sets of sides with equal length. AND those sides have equal length.
And that is what we see when we compare the defenitions of Eternal and Forever.
Eternal is a special version of Forever.
Then why the defenition for both states they have a unlimited duration you might ask.
Draw a line that is infinitly long. => Eternal
Then cut that line in half. How long is each part. Answer inifinitly long. => Everlasting
That was easy. wasn't it?
The next part is if you want your head to spin :laughing7:
God is not everlasting. Not because at some point He will die but because everlasting is a process. Say getting older all the time.
But not so for God because if tommorow He would be 1 day older it means He wasn't present in the future.
The line of God is already infinite. (complete)
Our line will be extended infinite. (action)
Thought for Shawn: But if you step in the 10 dimentions today you are eternal :laughing7:
:beerburp:
Quote from: LS on October 27, 2010, 04:13:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 26, 2010, 08:36:48 AM
I think
Eternal: Without a beginning or end.
Everlasting: Has a begining but no end.
Age: With a beginning and an end.
:thumbsup: I agree with that.
I agree with that too, but it still has nothing to do with the usage of those two words in the scriptures. Except for the two occurences of aidos(Jude:6; Ro 7:20), both everlasting and eternal are, without exception, aionios(Gr), which is from olam(Hb)- every single time in the NT in the KJV. Everlasting
never occurs in the NASB for that reason, aionios is "eternal" every single time in the NASB. So, lining up a few pertinent scriptures with which to discuss the possible meanings of the English words everlasting and eternal, is an everlasting exercise in eternal impossibility :o)
another possibility
Age: With a beginning and an end
Age of the Ages: An age with a beginning and no end
I'm not sure I understand you, but Jude 1:6 is not eternal or everlasting "
unto the judgement of the great day"
When I wrote lining up scriptures I didn't mean looking at translations. I was talking about looking the Greek or Hebrew.
For example above I proved with Jude 1:6 that aidios not always means everlasting.
QuoteAge of the Ages: An age with a beginning and no end
That means the greatest of all. Great as in most important. YLTRev 1714 these with the Lamb shall make war, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because Lord of lords he is, and King of kings, and those with him are called, and choice, and stedfast.'
King of kings -> Highest of kings.Lord of Lords -> Highest Lord.Obviously it isn't about duration because Jesus will hand over His rulership to Father.
Ephesians 3:21 my He be glorified by the group of Called Ones and by the Anoited One Yesu for all the eras of the Last Age of ages! Amen
Note that Last Age is written as a name/title. With caps.
Quote from: LS on October 27, 2010, 04:12:15 PMHi Lefein - I wanted to come back to your post. Similarly, I might ask what glory it gives God to force those who hate the Light to be in His presence evermore?
This assumes that people will hate him when he has revealed himself fully.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. -KJV
1Ti 2:4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. -CLV
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: -KJV
Isa 46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.' -CLV
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. -KJV
John 8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free. -CLV
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. -KJV
John 8:36 If ever, then, the Son should be making you free, you will be really free. -CLV
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -KJV
John 14:6 Jesus is saying to him, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me." -CLV
1Jn 4:8-11 -KJV
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:8-11 -CLV
He who is not loving knew not God, for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God among us, that God has dispatched His only-begotten Son into the world that we should be living through Him. In this is love, not that we love God, but that He loves us, and dispatches His son, a propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins. Beloved, if thus God loves us, we also ought to be loving one another.
Php 2:9-11 -KJV
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Php 2:9-11 -CLV
Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. -KJV
1Jn 4:15 Whoever should be avowing that Jesus is the Son of God, God is remaining in him, and he in God. -CLV
Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: -KJV
Luk 12:8 Now I am saying to you that everyone whoever shall be avowing Me in front of men, him shall the Son of Mankind also be avowing in front of the messengers of God. -CLV
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. -KJV
Rom 14:11 For it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God! -CLV
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. -KJV
Php 2:11 And every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father. -CLV
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -KJV
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I am making known to you that no one, speaking by God's spirit, is saying, "Anathema is Jesus.And no one is able to say "Lord is Jesus" except by holy spirit. -CLV
Everyone will bow, and everyone will confess, acclaim, and/or avow God, and Christ. According to Eternal Damnationalism - they'll do it by force, Annihilationism I am certain would imply the same. God would not have to destroy them if they loved him, and if they loved him they would be filled with God, and being filled with God would be saved, and unable to die because God is not just the truth, but he is also the life; God is life.
Here are the facts presented in the above verses;
Everyone will bow.
Everyone will confess, acclaim, avow - Father and Son.
Everyone will confess, acclaim, avow - Jesus is Lord.
No one who is not filled with The Holy Spirit can say that Jesus is Lord.
Everyone will come to the knowledge of The Truth.
The Truth sets you free.
If Jesus sets you free, you are truly free.
Jesus is The Truth.
God wills that everyone be saved.
God's will shall be done, his counsel shall stand, he will achieve his goals.
God is Love.
God loved us first, and gave his son to prove it.
Anyone who loves God, is in God, and has God.
Anyone who avows Jesus is the Son of God, God is in him, and has him.
Anyone who acclaims, avows, confesses Jesus before men, will be acclaimed, avowed, and confessed before Angels by Jesus.
Now, it is apparent to me that if you are filled with the Holy Ghost, acclaiming, avowing, confessing, and bowing to God, and have come to the full knowledge of The Truth - Jesus, calling him Lord, and confessing him before everyone in Heaven, that you are for all intents and purposes; Saved. And are full of Love therefore, being full of God who is Love, and also full of Life, and Truth. And having come to the knowledge of The Truth, you are set free by it, and are free indeed, and being free are under no bondage, or forced manipulation against your will to praise, and bow before the majesty of God - but instead you are doing these things willingly, and joyfully so.
All of this being said and done, it would be ludicrous of God to annihilate such a fervent worshiper, and such a passionate lover whom he loved first to begin with, and gave his only begotten son to obtain.
None shall hate God, because everyone is made in God's image - God is Love, and so they are made in the image of love, and kindred spirits respond to one another. Hate comes out of Death, because the sting Death is sin (1Co 15:56) to hate is to murder, and to murder is to cause death to someone - and to murder is to sin. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks - and every mouth will be speaking nothing but edification, praise, and acclaimations, avowings, and confessions of Jesus who is Life, and God who is Love, there is no hate here, no death, no sin, no cursing, no murder-speech, or otherwise. They can't confess that Jesus is Lord without the Holy Spirit being in them, so their hearts are full of God being in the full knowledge of The Truth who is Jesus; in essence everyone is completely saturated, and permeated by the full presence of a holy, righteous, and loving God, who is an all consuming fire - God who has defeated Death, I don't see how it would be possible for the finite darkness of man's hatefulness, or sinfulness could stand beneath such raw compassionate love, life, and especially knowing the full truth of it all while being full of The Holy Ghost, confessing Jesus as Lord, while Jesus does the same with a smile - and being set free indeed by Truth and being under no bondage or rule or pressure to do so.
To summarise: It gives God the fullness of glory to have people in his light evermore, because no one shall possibly be inclined to hate him. Because to hate him, would be to murder him, and to murder him is to sin, and sin is bondage, and death - and if he is under bondage then he is not free indeed, and if he is under death then death has not been defeated, and if any of these things are the case; then that person does not know the fullness of Truth in the first place, and so God would become a liar.
QuoteAre those who hate Him somehow forced to love Him? (I know it's nearly impossible for us to imagine anyone coming into His presence and holding onto their rebellion and hate ... and yet we know that angels in His very presence did just that.) So if He forces His love on those who hate it and hate Him, how does that fit with the definition of Love the Bible gives us?
When you know the fullness of the Truth, compared to your own sin, and are full of life, light, truth, Holy Ghost, and joy, and peace, and the fullness of God's presence...Well it isn't so much that it is impossible to resist, or that you are somehow forced to enjoy the better thing rather than it is like being a lonely starving child who is taken out of the desert and set in the honoured seat at a rich man's banquet, forever to live and stay in his house. The child would have no reason to want to go back to the desert, the thought to him would be ludicrous.
As for the Angels we are only told they rebelled, not their state of relationship with God. It is most likely that those angels became self-centered and stopped focusing on God in the first place. And when you become self-centered your world becomes very, very small, and you become blind to the whole world outside of yourself. But it is of my opinion, that these rebellious angels are included in "Everyone".
It is of my belief, that God will humble these angels, and that after they are humbled they will become some of the most fervent of his worshiping angels - having been made fully aware of their selfish depravity, and in the face of all of that, being made aware of God's grace and love towards them. They too are prodigal sons.
QuoteI hope that doesn't come off as a flippant reply to your questions - I honestly do spend time weighing and pondering these things. But every time it makes me think of Job, who poured out his complaints and demanded the LORD explain Himself.
Oh worry not, no problem, you didn't come across as anything but conversative. :boyheart:
QuoteGod doesn't really have to explain Himself to me and my deepest thoughts and reasonings fall far too short of really understanding Him and His ways; if I depend on my own reasoning, don't I run the risk of creating a god in my own image? If we all were to learn for a fact that eternal torment is truth, who am I to proclaim that it doesn't bring Him glory?
That is humility, and for that I ask that God would exalt you to his glory. :)
But if I may encourage you, with the facts lined out, it seems to me that we do not have to fear the divine abortion (annihilation) of the lost ones, any more than we have to fear their divine torture. :HeartThrob:
QuoteIn the end, I have to base my beliefs on what the Bible says from my own prayerful study and seeking His guidance. And to me, over and over and over the Bible says that if we follow we will be saved; if we don't, we will perish.
The above scriptures say that everyone will come to the full knowledge of the truth, and be full of God, confessing, praising, worshiping, loving, and glorifying him, being full of him, free in him, and truly free indeed. :)
QuoteGod's glory WILL be revealed regardless of whether we understand in this life.
Amen.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will...
(Eph 1:9-11)
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(2Co 5:17-19)
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order...... For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death......When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:22-28)
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
(Rom 8:19-22)
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:10-11)
God will definitely get His Glory
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)
Even if we gloss over the word and run with the crowd and miss the central purpose of the gospel- ultimate universal reconciliation :o)
Amen! Phil 3;18-21 " For many are walking, of whom I have often been telling you and now even weeping telling you, the enemies of the cross of the Christ; whose end is their destruction and whose God is the belly and whose glory is their shame, who are resolved upon the earthly things.
For our citizenship has it's rise in the heavens where a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, do we ardently await, Who will transform our humbled body into conformity with His glorified body according to the energy with which He is able to subdue all things to Himself."
Seems to be the enemies of the cross do not yet grasp the significance of the glorious future that we have in the resurrected Christ when we will be made LIKE HIM.
I used to be like that. Do not want to return to that limited understanding of just how much He actually loves us. The living in Christ establishes a whole lot of truth that saturates the mind with things so awesome that words cannot express them as totally as they should.
This is only meant to be an encouragement to seek in earnest and request mercy to open the eyes to see that promised hope.
Amen Ross.
THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD
Amen Beloved! :thumbsup: :bigGrin:
We, as children of God are accepted in the beloved, redeemed by the blood of His cross, by grace through faith and that not of ourselves- it is the gift of God.
"I write to you little children because your sins are forgiven for His names sake"...
However the pathway to sonship, placement over the Father's house, being given the keys to the kingdom- that is another matter.
"I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil"...."If any man cleanse himself from these He will be a vessel fit for the Master's use"
Knowing the full purpose of the Father, and finding fellowship in the mystery, that is even another matter- a place further on.
"I write to you fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning"
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. (Rom 8:19)