Rev 4 vs. Rev 20

[Aleax]

4:8 And the four living creatures, each by itself severally, had six wings, around and within `are' full of eyes, and rest they have not day and night, saying, `Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is coming;'

4:9 and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,

4:10 fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

4:11 `Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou -- Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.'

--

20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where `are' the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

--

How would you explain "ages of the ages" means "forever" in the 4th chapter but "not forever" in the 20th?

[Lefein]

God is infinite, the beast and the false prophet are not.

But lets look at the Greek, maybe it will reveal something.

Revelation 4:9 The Greek, and Literal Translation.

Kai hotan dosousin ta zoa doxan kai timen kai eucharistian to kathemeno epi tou thronou to zonti eis tous aionas ton aionon.

And when-ever shall-be-giving the living-ones esteem glory and value and thanking[thanksgiving] to-the one-sitting on of-the[the] throne to-the one-living INTO the eons of-the eons.

Revelation 4:10

Pesountai hoi eikosi kai tessares presbuteroi enopion tou kathemenou epi tou thronou kai proskunousin to zonti eis tous aionas ton aionon:

Shall-be-falling the twenty and four seniors[elders] in-view[sight-of-before] of-the one-sitting on of-the[the] throne and they-are-worshiping to-the[the] one-living INTO the eons of the eons.

Revelation 4:10

Kai ho diabolos ho planon autous eblethe eis ten limnen tou puros kai theiou hopou to therion kai ho pseudoprophetes kai basanisthesontai hemeras kai nuktos eis tous aionas ton aionon.

And the-thru-caster[adversary] the one-straying[one-deceiving] them was-cast into the lake of-the fire and sulphur where-are the wild-beast and the false-prophet and they-shall-be-being-ordealised[they-shall-be-being-tormented] of-day and of-night INTO the eons of-the eons.

[WhiteWings]

Lefein,
The literal translation is from the ISA2 program I assume.
If so do you type all those words yourself or have you found a way to copy and paste from ISA2?

[Lefein]

I type them all myself.  I unfortunately haven't found a way to copy-paste.  They are indeed from ISA2.

[WhiteWings]

Then let's hope version 3 has that functionality....

[Lefein]

Amen, amen!   :laughing7:

[LS]

How would you explain "ages of the ages" means "forever" in the 4th chapter but "not forever" in the 20th?

In my opinion, "forever" means "forever" in both cases, just as "eternal" means the same thing in Matthew 25 and "for ever and ever" means the same thing in Psalm 9 (in this thread)

[Lefein]

I wonder if "ages of the ages" or "forever and ever" are not sort of like...titles, signatures, or punctuating phrases, kind of like how in Exodus, and the other books that gave portions of the Judaic Laws would sign the declarations with "Thus saith the Lord".

[eaglesway]

I continue to say this from time to time, but I think it is pertinent. The word that matters most is "olam" because aion and aionios both are translations of it. Olam means "beyond the horizon, or unkown or other worldly". This is why aion is sometimes translated age and sometimes translated world. Olam incoroated both htoughts depending on what subject it was connected to. It was commonly used in relationship to various(unknown) lenghts of time - including time transcendent "other worldly" definitions, being modified by the subject matter variously. Example, the time of a slaves period of lifetime indenture, because the length of the slaves life would be unknown at the beginning of his indenture- so he would be a slave "olam". When pertaining to aionian pur(fire) the period of fire would be olam because not one knows how long it will be until "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" and when the last enemy will capitulate- having paid "the last penny". When referring to God, olam is obviously unknown(beyond the veil/horizon) and also obviously eternal, or forever, because God is infinite and unknowable and undefinable. Aion is a modern word, in comparison to olam- and is possibly a big part of the problem in the" loss of original thought in the process of translation" because people are going into the writings of Plato and Aristotle as if their thoughts concerning the meaning of aion could define the original thought contained in the original word, "olam". I don't think that process works. The point ought always be to get to the original thought.

[Lefein]

So then perhaps when it pertains to chastisement...

Aionios; age-lasting, could perhaps be instead: World-lasting?  That might put a new sort of idea behind the typically used verses of Eternal Life, vs. Eternal Punishment.

World-lasting Life, would pertain to the world in which Life takes place - the world of the Deathless reigning.

World-lasting Chastisement, would pertain (even aside from the temporal nature of Chastisement) to the world in which Chastisement takes place, which itself will be end at some point even after the chastisement of an individual has met its goal to bend the knee of the person to Christ, in which case the world of separation from God is no longer applicable, and he goes from "world of death-lasting" existence into "world of deathlessness and life-lasting" existence.

[eaglesway]

I think think that makes a lot of sense.  kosmos/world-universe and aion/world-age are related IMO. Sometimes we treat things completely separate when they may be interrelated, or just the primary aspects of a whole- like blue and green and yellow are interrelated and aspects of light, the aspects of creation -worlds, ages, times, seasons are expressesd as kosmos, aion, chronos, kairos, genea and are just interrelated specifics of the whole.

[Ross]

Hi;
Haven't seen you in ages.
Down through the ages..
Many examples of the unknown quantity of time. Your definition is well said, eaglesway.
That then also backs up the ages of judgement as unknown periods of time for the removal of the error of man's ways and the leading to the truth. The great white throne could be a lengthy process.

[eaglesway]

YES!

[Lefein]

So basically, we could think of Aion and Olam as existential phrases pertaining not just specifically to time, but to the nature of circumstances as well?

A bit like what Ross said;

"Haven't seen you in ages"

It doesn't so much have to do with how long one person has, or hasn't seen the other (though that is a fundamental part of it), rather than the kernel point being made; "I haven't seen you, now I do at long last"


Conclusion?
Aionian chastisement, or world-lasting chastisement is an existential phrase pertaining to the nature of the circumstances; You will under go a purifying change, that change will take as long as it needs to take.

"I can do this all day if I have to..."


4:10 fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne:

20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where `are' the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

The existential nature of circumstances in this verse compared to the one below it, are connected with the subject that they pertain to.  God who lives for a long-long time, and The Adversary, and The Beast, and The False Prophet who shall be tormented for a long-long time.

Though their torment may be temporal, pertaining existentially to the nature of circumstances or "world" that they have been put within; that doesn't mean that God is temporal by connection of the phrase "to ages of the ages", because his existential nature of circumstances described by the phrase to begin with is by default completely different.  His nature being immortal, deathless, I AM, incorruptible, etc; whereas the evil three are not.

[LS]

If you already believe US to be true, then the explanation you all are offering, really, is the way you can see it so that it makes sense.

But if you don't have a belief in US, then I have say (gently) that those explanations sound a little dishonest.

I wouldn't use the same word in one sentence to mean too different things ... "I haven't seen you for ages! I can't wait until we live for ages in the next life with God!" 

Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it.  Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion.  I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices.

I'm honestly not trying to be rude here, but am only trying to explain how it appears from a different perspective.

[Lefein]

I am not taking it as rude to begin with.  Only that in light of scripture, logic, and the other witnesses - something has to be in the mix that needs explanation.

I think the greater problem is that even we do not have a complete understanding of the context behind the words Olam, and Aion, because our native languages are not biblical Hebrew or Greek.  These are rather ambiguous words, and phrases to be honest.  They are almost like idioms.

"My way, or the highway" is an idiom that uses the word "way" in it.  Someone from a culture who is not native English speaking, and doesn't have a concept of roads, or how things work in developed countries might not get it.  What originally means "my option, or pack your stuff and hit the road" might be interpreted as "my way, or a way that is above my way in quality", a misinterpretation.  Just looking at it from another perspective as well. :)

[eaglesway]

Hi LS

No rudeness taken or implied I hope :o). However, There is no dishonesty in it once you do the thorough study on the uses of "olam" in the OT and conclude properly that all the uses of aion and aionios extend from a translation process started with the original though communicated by "olam". I am not saying this makes mine or L s conclusions correct. I am saying that there are logical possibilities there worthy of consideration at any objective table, honestly...(and of course, I do think I am correct LOL) Peace, John

Behold, I am making ALL THINGS NEW

[LS]

I appreciate that you took that in the spirit it was intended  :)

I certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen. 

I really don't think that readers nor listeners of the Word need to have study tools at-hand to correctly understand. I think the most casual listener will hear and correctly understand what is being conveyed.  Deeper study and more spiritual meanings aren't necessarily "wrong" and can bring deeper levels of understanding, but in my opinion they can't negate the more obvious and simpler meaning.   

That is what I come back to anyway.  I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct.  I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it.  That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself  :)

[Lefein]

I certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen. 

Thus, The Holy Spirit is our teacher, not the written word itself, or theologians.  Even (lol and especially) we (Eaglesway and I) are not.

That is what I come back to anyway.  I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct.  I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it.  That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself  :)

My advice from experience is; "Go with peace"

Look at the options, and consider them, weigh them against the standard - the nature of God who is Love, Righteous, True, Kind, Graceful, Forgiving, Triumphant, etc.  And go with what gives you the greater sense of peace.

From my experience, Universal Reconciliation came as an answer to prayers that went on for three years straight.  I had peace, and joy, and elation this underlying sort of "can this be true? I so truly hope it is!  But what of the word...?".  I went with peace, and I haven't looked back since, and now Eternal Damnationalism seems like a blight - a bit like how when you grow up and look back at your younger mistakes, you see how what you thought was right at the time, was icky and bleh.

But God wrote the book, so if you haven't already, pray this prayer:

"Reveal yourself, who are you?  Is your grace sufficient, and power mighty enough to save the world?"

[LS]

My advice from experience is; "Go with peace"

Thank you :)   My most constant prayer is that God protect me from being deceived, and that He shows me Truth plainly and clearly so that even I can understand.  He is a very gracious and merciful God.   :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Lefein, I like this,
"Conclusion?
Aionian chastisement, or world-lasting chastisement is an existential phrase pertaining to the nature of the circumstances; You will under go a purifying change, that change will take as long as it needs to take."

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I like that too.... :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I certainly understand what you are saying about the use of words. At the same time, scripture is divinely inspired and the Holy Spirit knows words don't translate precisely; yet specific original terms were chosen. 

I really don't think that readers nor listeners of the Word need to have study tools at-hand to correctly understand. I think the most casual listener will hear and correctly understand what is being conveyed.  Deeper study and more spiritual meanings aren't necessarily "wrong" and can bring deeper levels of understanding, but in my opinion they can't negate the more obvious and simpler meaning.   

That is what I come back to anyway.  I read and hear many things that pique my interest but as I dig in, if I have to manipulate things too much to make it work then I don't feel it can be correct.  I have honestly tried to understand and embrace US, but I just keep stumbling on it.  That's what's been really great about this tentmaker site though - I can push and poke and you all are most excellent and patient at answering my questions and helping me to understand how you see it, so I can weigh it for myself  :)

I agree with all these well spoken words. And of course, I have gone through a similar sifting process to arrive where I am (not to say you will arrive here). I especially agree with your point about not having to manipulate too much, and I personally think way to much weight is put on the translation issues. I stand in this testimony because of 8 simple portions of scripture. I could not manipulate their combined weight. If I cannot take these at face value the the Bible would be no longer of any value to me as an inerant source for doctrine. To be brief I will list them with no commentary, but with some emphasized words. (Everything emphasized in blue is one word, "pas", a greek word meaning- all inclusive, everything; Strong's)

All from NASB

1) In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness(completion) of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
(Eph 1:8-11)

2) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. (Col 1:15-20)

3)My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole(holos- complete, entirety; Strong's) world.
(1Jn 2:1-2)


4)For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

5)For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all(pas en pas).
(1Co 15:22-28)

6)For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

7)And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)

8)And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
(Rev 21:5)

It takes way too much manipulation to see all these scriptures differently. The following twisted verses are the manipulations I hear all the time.... Behold I am making a few things new. An administration suitable to only this age, the summing up of a few things in Christ. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess just before they get thrown into eternal torment. He Himself is the propitiation of our sins and for a small part of the worlds. He will turn a few things over to the Father so that God may be all in a few and the rest will burn forever. For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and to reconcile a few things back to Himself through the blood of His cross. As in Adam all died, in a different way only a few will live through Christ. Having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who makes some things work according to the counsel of His will.

There are more verses I could put up here and the temptation is great, but I will leave that to the Holy Spirit, or another day. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and God our Father.

[CHB]

[quote author=LS
Rather, if I was trying to make a strong point, I certainly would use the same word in one sentence to emphasize it.  Jesus did this in Matthew 25 - everlasting fire or everlasting life mean the same duration, in my opinion.  I don't feel you can select one definition for fire and another for life - it is obvious in my mind that He is intentionally contrasting the two choices. [/quote]

Hi,

The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end".  This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.

CHB

[LS]

The word "everlasting" cannot be the word that belongs here because the word "everlasting" means "without a beginning or end".  This everlasting fire has a beginning. Everlasting life has a beginning also, therefore the same word is used, it's just the wrong word.

CHB

Hi CHB ... I don't really agree that it must have no beginning; I think it could mean that once it begins, it never ends.  But if you don't like that translation, here are the other options:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

You might like "perpetual" better? But in any case, none of these are a temporary nature.   :dontknow:  I do realize that people on this site dispute those definitions, but I find that a difficult thing to accept. To me, it comes awfully close to saying that God could not preserve His Word well enough or accurately enough for all to hear it and to know Truth.