Who is Satan?

[Pierac]

Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.
Paul
Was Jesus a messenger? Yes Jesus was/is the "chief messenger." What is an angel? I know there are celestial hosts, but angel is
to be a messenger. I wll stand by an earlier statement if the translators would have transalted the KJV properly most of the discussions on the site alone would never appear. The "word" satan means adversary, but the tranlators, for God reasons i must believe, made it a proper noun and thus there are so many stories, myths and fables. Is the AVERSARY real, you betcha. Is the Adversary powerful, you betcha. Will the Adversary be defeated....YES  Jo. 16:33
1Jn 2:13  I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14  I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.

Indeed, but scripture never speaks of Jesus being an angel,  your reading into scripture instead of out of scripture. So what does scripture teach?  Was Jesus a Angel or a Man?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter?

a.   A Angel
b.   A God
c.   A man

If you chose answer c, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don't know.  You might think that must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

1.   Who did God raise? That's right, this MAN!
2.   Who raised this MAN? God! I read of no Angel being raised

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1.   Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2.   Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you're getting the hang of it.
1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.
2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "Angel."

Let's review a KEY verse!

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think we've got it now.  Jesus is a MAN anointed by God, not an Angel.  Hallelujah! So that's what Peter was saying in Acts. :thumbsup:

Paul

[thinktank]

Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.
Paul
Was Jesus a messenger? Yes Jesus was/is the "chief messenger." What is an angel? I know there are celestial hosts, but angel is
to be a messenger. I wll stand by an earlier statement if the translators would have transalted the KJV properly most of the discussions on the site alone would never appear. The "word" satan means adversary, but the tranlators, for God reasons i must believe, made it a proper noun and thus there are so many stories, myths and fables. Is the AVERSARY real, you betcha. Is the Adversary powerful, you betcha. Will the Adversary be defeated....YES  Jo. 16:33
1Jn 2:13  I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14  I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.

Indeed, but scripture never speaks of Jesus being an angel,  your reading into scripture instead of out of scripture. So what does scripture teach?  Was Jesus a Angel or a Man?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter?

a.   A Angel
b.   A God
c.   A man

If you chose answer c, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don't know.  You might think that must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

1.   Who did God raise? That's right, this MAN!
2.   Who raised this MAN? God! I read of no Angel being raised

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1.   Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2.   Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you're getting the hang of it.
1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.
2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "Angel."

Let's review a KEY verse!

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think we've got it now.  Jesus is a MAN anointed by God, not an Angel.  Hallelujah! So that's what Peter was saying in Acts. :thumbsup:

Paul

In micahs defence I'd say that michael was bc not AD. For the name of Jesus is difficult in the old testament, it is I AM that speaks to Abraham and I am is Jesus.

But here's something that might be of help. In the book of Daniel several men appear to him in visions, one of them is given a title of the son of man, but michael is given the title "man". In scripture Jesus is known as the son of man and angels are known as men. So in this vision we have 2 different men, one of these is debatlable and the other is michael. We know one is michael, but the son of man vision could be an angel and michael could be pre/Jesus or the word. Which figure is who?

Both can be ascribed to as God or I AM.

[micah7:9]

Well if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

[WhiteWings]

     Micah perhaps these articles help you a little in your quest:
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1113690965.htm
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1153909017.htm


 

    Q:

If Jesus was lower than angels Hebrews 2v9 and Paul is greater than angels Galatians 1v8 then is Paul greater than Jesus?

A: 

Yep! If Jesus were indeed lower than the angels and Paul were indeed greater than angels, then the conclusion must be true.  The problem is, that's not what the Bible says in context.  Hebrews 2:9 does indeed say that Jesus was "made" a little lower than the angels. Verses 6-8 quote Psalm 8, which says that man was made a little lower than the angels. The question becomes, what definition of "made" should we use? One definition would indicate that both were created in that state. If that's the definition to use, then we must also conclude that Jesus was a created being. The problem there is that He cannot be God "in the flesh" if He were created. See the related question "Is Jesus God" and "Is Jesus the Son of God" to the right for more information.  Now let's look at Galatians. In the first part of the letter Paul is addressing a problem that the church at Galatia is having: that of abandoning Christ for "a different gospel" (v. 6). Galatians 1:8, in the NIV, reads: "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" This isn't saying that Paul is more important than an angel, but rather that the Gospel that the Galatians have been taught by Paul and others (presumably other apostles) is more important than any other variation they may hear, no matter from whom it comes, even it's from an alleged "angel." Thus, Paul is not saying he's greater than any given angel, though one could infer that he's more important than any angel who preaches a lie as the truth (which would include the various angels that fell with Lucifer, also called Satan). The phrasing, however, doesn't really support this directly, either, and it especially doesn't compare to Hebrews 2.  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_Jesus_was_lower_than_angels_Hebrews_2v9_and_Paul_is_greater_than_angels_Galatians_1v8_then_is_Paul_greater_than_Jesus

     

[micah7:9]

WW I have no quest as per angels. Angels are ministers. Should people have the desire to make them more than that so be it.
I cant tell you how many stories I have hear in my 65 years that are told to small children about "angels." The Bible is a book of Truth, not a book to take things out and make up stories and fables; that is just how christianity keeps losing its viability.
I spent many hours looking for a "guadian angel."  I have no quest as per angels.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Pierac]

Well if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

Indeed, It makes Him the Messiah, the Christ!

It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

In micahs defence I'd say that michael was bc not AD. For the name of Jesus is difficult in the old testament, it is I AM that speaks to Abraham and I am is Jesus.
But here's something that might be of help. In the book of Daniel several men appear to him in visions, one of them is given a title of the son of man, but michael is given the title "man". In scripture Jesus is known as the son of man and angels are known as men. So in this vision we have 2 different men, one of these is debatlable and the other is michael. We know one is michael, but the son of man vision could be an angel and michael could be pre/Jesus or the word. Which figure is who?

Both can be ascribed to as God or I AM.

Do they indeed?

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God or angels. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus?  Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am."  Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church.  This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he."  You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics.  This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.  Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ.  "I who speak to you am he."  In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah.  Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right."  Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!"  And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent?  Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM?  Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God or an Angel in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he,"  that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day."  By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One.  On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents.  Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw.  The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God.  Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was."  Also, Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable.  Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born, not some Angel.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be an Angel! But God's Messiah... The Christ!


Paul

[Lefein]

Well if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

Besides the word "Messenger" (IE: the office of these beings), what exactly according to your belief, and understanding...is an Angel?

[WhiteWings]

TCB John 8:58
Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted tranlation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings: Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo.3:14)] ."

Text between [..] is commentary.
you+ is plural

^YLTIsa 41
4 Who hath wrought and done, Calling the generations from the first? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last I am He.
^YLTExod 3
14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

[micah7:9]

Belief? Understanding?
The word "angel"  OT "mal ak"  despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger."angel"     NT "aggelos"   to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Are there celestial bodies, yes. 1Co 15:40  and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;

I have no "belief" concerning angels, they are messengers/ambassadors.

[Lefein]

I asked you what you believed they were species wise, not who they were concerning their office - Messenger.

I'll ask again then, as clearly and as simply as I can.

Of what "species" or "order of creature" do you believe these beings (the creatures whom God gives the office of "Messenger" to) are?

To ensure you get what I mean, I'll ask again in a metaphoric way.

If I have a creature, whom I give the office of Mouser, what type of creature is he, what is his species?  (you would answer; he is a cat)

[micah7:9]

I asked you what you believed they were species wise, not who they were concerning their office - Messenger.

I'll ask again then, as clearly and as simply as I can.

Of what "species" or "order of creature" do you believe these beings (the creatures whom God gives the office of "Messenger" to) are?

To ensure you get what I mean, I'll ask again in a metaphoric way.

If I have a creature, whom I give the office of Mouser, what type of creature is he, what is his species?  (you would answer; he is a cat)

Man, an ass, perhaps a dove.

[Lefein]

Thank you, now I have a clear understanding of your belief regarding Angelic beings.

Non-existent?

[thinktank]

WW I have no quest as per angels. Angels are ministers. Should people have the desire to make them more than that so be it.
I cant tell you how many stories I have hear in my 65 years that are told to small children about "angels." The Bible is a book of Truth, not a book to take things out and make up stories and fables; that is just how christianity keeps losing its viability.
I spent many hours looking for a "guadian angel."  I have no quest as per angels.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

knock annd ye shall find, seek and the door shall be opened to you.


Matthew 18:10   
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I guess the myths ar true after all,  :bigGrin:

have faith in the word.

[micah7:9]

No to me. But thanks.

Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

[Lefein]

I'm a bit curious, Cherubim, Seraphim...None of these are men, donkey's, marmosets, blue birds, turtles, turtledoves, or doves...What are they?  Cherubim, and Seraphim are I believe, the names for their office also by the way.

[micah7:9]

Thank you, now I have a clear understanding of your belief regarding Angelic beings.

Non-existent?

H3742  cherub Of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure: - cherub, [plural] cherubims.

H8314  seraphims burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or
symbolical creature

[Lefein]

Is everything pertaining to God, Heaven, and Heavenly beings figurative?

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03742 Cherub according to Strongs (though I myself somewhat dislike Strongs personally)

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=08314 Seraph according to Strongs.

[thinktank]

No to me. But thanks.

Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

so you seek in vain  :sigh: if it was faith that motivated you, you would have jumped for joy in seeing the scriptures concerning angels, but you saw, but yet did not believe, so what motivated you to seek the angel scriptures?

[micah7:9]

If you are talking about in answer to your post, Ive known about Matt.18:10 for sometime. If you are talking about what motivated me originally, then it was to get understanding of why so manny stories are made up of angels in christian books, and hollywood, and just the lore itself.

[Lefein]

For the same reason Jesus used parables.  An imagination to express truth, or beautiful things is a gift from God.  He himself is creative.

Disclaimer; that doesn't mean our imaginations haven't been abused, or is unable to be abused.

[micah7:9]

For the same reason Jesus used parables.  An imagination to express truth, or beautiful things is a gift from God.  He himself is creative.

Disclaimer; that doesn't mean our imaginations haven't been abused, or is unable to be abused.

Amen

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Because bro, there are 3 realms of prayer, to correspond with the 3 main feasts, and the 30, 60, and 100 realms. We must move from glory to glory as He directs, and that entails changes in how we approach Him, just as it did with the people that approached Him in the literal Tabernacle. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

An angel appeared to me once, touched me on the chest, and spoke to me.

[Lefein]

What did he say?  And look like?

Alas, I've never seen an Angel myself, that I know of.

[eaglesway]

   I don't expect anyone to take my word for...as I see there is sure to be some skepticism, but I am not ashamed of my testimony :o).... the angel appeared as a multicolored translucent spirit body wearing a shirt with starbursts on it, and when he disappeared there was a starburst left in the air for a few moments. I had been in intense prayer over a critical decision in my life.The angel touched me on the chest and I felt it as if any human hand were touching me, and he spoke and said, "Stay right where you are, brother" which at the time I took to mean that I should stand in the decision I had made while praying and meditating. Grace & Peace, John