Tentmaker Forum

A sermon at church today prompted a random thought of mine.  Pastor asked what things might we find hard to believe and why, because he was teaching about Thomas' request to see Christ's hands.  I thought about all the observations of Christ, his disciples, angels, miracles and then about the very limited siting of Satan.  I thought, why don't we know more about Satan and who has seen him? 

I'm interested in what studies and conclusions others have made.  Who was Satan, where was he and where is he now?  I can only think of one New Testament siting/depiction. From what I can tell, only Jesus has seen him and conversed in length.  For some reason there are many sermons today about this evil being and yet very little experiences to draw from.

QuoteMatthew 4:1-11 (New International Version)
The Temptation of Jesus

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
   " 'He will command his angels concerning you,
      and they will lift you up in their hands,
   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "  Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

QuoteI'm interested in what studies and conclusions others have made.  Who was Satan, where was he and where is he now?  I can only think of one New Testament siting/depiction. From what I can tell, only Jesus has seen him and conversed in length.  For some reason there are many sermons today about this evil being and yet very little experiences to draw from.

That's because Satan is a very minor character in the bible. He is very insignificant, just a bit part.

People need to control people, and fear is the biggest control mechanism. When the church got thir hands onto this devil character they played him up to control the masses, to fear people into tithes...now the movement seems to be moving more into blaming him for everything wrong to eleviate their own responsibility. The church has also expanded this saying unless you do this or that YOU have become one of his followers.

Control, through fear...my oh my, religion is good for the people.

Everyone has their own interpretation of everything that comes their way and the person of Satan and the subject of who 'he' is, is no different. Each of us will pick and choose what we need for our belief system to remain in tact but my prayer for all of us is that in the end God will have us all where He wants us and I am content with knowing that this prayer is in line with Gods will and will not return void.

Now let me render my 2 cents here. I see Satan as a many layered reality but my foremost thought is that Satan and the carnal mind are strongly linked. It just makes so much sense to me. Both are adversarial to God. Both tempt us in opposition to God. Both are intimately with us in various ways like when Jesus was led by the Spirit to some remote solitary place yet Satan was right there. Both create thoughts. And so on.

I have had conversations within my own being, with myself. Some of these  'conversations' are very real and some are very much in opposition to God. They create a struggle within. I think of Jesus when He sweat great drops of blood. What an inner struggle He must have been having. Jesus never had a carnal mind but He was tempted like us.

Can you imagine never giving in to lust and greed and all that? It is hard to be so disciplined. It seems impossible yet Jesus did it. We got to admit, giving in to a temptation can be a great relief, at least until we wake up again and see how weak we are and fall on our knees to seek forgiveness. Jesus never gave in.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points  tempted  like as [we are, yet] without sinheb4.15

cp

the advisary, takes on many forms.

at one point peter was an advisary, and Jesus called him satan.


for me, my biggest advisary at this time is ""SELF""  the battle tales place in my mind, the high place.

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on April 19, 2010, 05:46:18 PM
the advisary, takes on many forms.

at one point peter was an advisary, and Jesus called him satan.


for me, my biggest advisary at this time is ""SELF""  the battle tales place in my mind, the high place.

chuckt

I totally understand Chuck. I am my own worst enemy (satan) at times. That's why I see 'satan' as my own mind when it's in it's carnal state. Peter was an adversary to Jesus only in the sense that satan ruled his mindset at the time. I am adversarial to Jesus at times too and I do hear His voice reprimanding me.

The fact that satan is personified, I think, confuses us as is normal. Wisdom is also personified in Scripture.

Just my thoughts.

cp

every sunday the ""devil"" is bound in the name of Jesus, all over the world that old guy is bound, some how he gets loose.  :sigh:

The battle is in our MIND, the high places, the carnal man makes war with the spiritual, the war takes place in our mind, is it not with the mind we bring EVERY though captive?

they (( orthodox fundies )) will say our war is not with flesh and blood but with principalities in high places, well they are still on the ground, argueing from traditions of men.

was in a discussion on this just the other day:

i said:

Quoteum your battle is between your flesh/dust and the spirit.

serpent cursed to eat dust, YOU made of dust.

this battle takes place in the realm of the mind, also know as the high places.

reply:

QuoteSo Paul was wrong when he declared that believers wrestle not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers in the heavenly places ?????

i procceded to post scriptures about the mind, and so forth, and more obfuscation followed...

he said:

Quoteso demons and fallen angels do not exist ? What did Jesus and the Apostles cast out of people? What went into the herd of swine that jumped off the cliff When Jesus cast them out ? Did he cast out their minds or thoughts ????

MY reply:

Luk 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.


that when i got banned/suspended, they though i was saying the poster was not in his right mind  :dontknow:

little did i know i was speaking with a mod who already had it in for me....


ok rambling......woot.

love
chuckt

I think God must love a good debate because look at Paul for one and then at all our (all of us the world over in all time) discussions and when you consider it is God working IN US to will and to do of His GOOD PLEASURE, well then I conclude He must be having a colossal time! :laughing7:

cp

Quote from: claypot on April 19, 2010, 06:29:24 PM
I think God must love a good debate because look at Paul for one and then at all our (all of us the world over in all time) discussions and when you consider it is God working IN US to will and to do of His GOOD PLEASURE, well then I conclude He must be having a colossal time! :laughing7:

cp

absolutly, i beleive he also has taught me great patience.

peace man!

chuckt

Satan, a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature.

peacemaker

PM, that is good. A principal, like in principalities in high places or spiritual places. Seems like your explanation lines up with Scripture.

For out the heart comes.................opposition.

cp

for me the heart/mind is the high places and this is where we do battle.

we are to take every thought captive!

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

what is the main thing that ' exalteth itself against the knowledge of God ' ? i say flesh/self.

more to this i know...

peace

And here in this thread lies the perfect example of what sound does.  Everyone is singing the song of spiritual sound.  Each may sing a different note, but each note harmonizes with the others and the song of what's being said rings true.  I relate to every one of your thoughts and posts. 

Satan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".  Which is what one of the previous posts here eluded to.  When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted.

However, when we see Jesus, as God who manifests fully in flesh, we then can understand that even in the fleshly manifestation of Jesus was a carnal thinking mind that needed to be aligned before his ministry could affect the world as originally intended.  Jesus needed to put his flesh into submission and that's all that was happening in the wilderness. 

From the serpent in the garden of Genesis to the dragon in Revelation this carnal force has been in existance in every mind of man.  It's the most subtle "beast" in all the field.  This was not a depiction of natural snakes, but it "is" a principle of how carnality works in our lives.  Satan is the carnal force subtly at work in my mind.  Which means it works just under my awareness.  My mind is dependant on knowledge, carnality is the governing force that influences my natural mind, thus making it an adversary to the nature of God. 


Satan is what my carnal mind is . . .it's an adversary.  The "devil" is what my mind "does".  The authors of Scripture never used "devil" either.  What they did use was "traducer" which is our term for "accuser".  My carnal mind accuses me night and day of my shortcomings and my failures.  Quoting Scriptures may win the battle, but the war continues on.  It's not until we exercise the authority in us and command the alignment to manifest that we finally shut the enemy down all together.  That's what Jesus did with Peter when he called him satan and that's what Jesus did with his own mind in the wilderness.  "Get thee behind me" is a decree of alignment.

good stuff...

its almost like we all have a cain and able inside us  :mshock:

Quote from: chuckt on April 20, 2010, 10:00:14 PM
good stuff...

its almost like we all have a cain and able inside us  :mshock:

I fully believe we do Chuck. Out of the SAME LUMP (each individual person or Adam) God makes a vessel of honor (Able) and dishonor (Cain). Romans 9.21

Put off the old man (Cain) and put on the new (Able) Paul says.

cp

QuoteSatan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".

The reason they did chose that word is because in the origonal language Satan means adversary. It was what Jesus called Him, Adversary became a proper name for the serpent... there were those like Peter who at that moment was acting adversarial towards the plan of God, and there is also THE Adversary.

God is even called satan, for in the Aramaic the word adversary is SATAN...and in Chronicles I think it is God is adversarial towards Israel, therefor in the origonal aramaic it does say that God was satan towards Israel.

Quote from: peacemaker on April 20, 2010, 04:02:46 AM
Satan, a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature.

Quote from: claypot on April 20, 2010, 08:54:34 PM
A principal, like in principalities in high places or spiritual places.

Predominantly ruling; having influence or control over others as well.

   :secret:

Quote from: Apoc on April 19, 2010, 03:40:39 AM
A sermon at church today prompted a random thought of mine.  Pastor asked what things might we find hard to believe and why, because he was teaching about Thomas' request to see Christ's hands.  I thought about all the observations of Christ, his disciples, angels, miracles and then about the very limited siting of Satan.  I thought, why don't we know more about Satan and who has seen him? 

I'm interested in what studies and conclusions others have made.  Who was Satan, where was he and where is he now?  I can only think of one New Testament siting/depiction. From what I can tell, only Jesus has seen him and conversed in length.  For some reason there are many sermons today about this evil being and yet very little experiences to draw from.

QuoteMatthew 4:1-11 (New International Version)
The Temptation of Jesus

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
   " 'He will command his angels concerning you,
      and they will lift you up in their hands,
   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "  Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

  I like these answers folks have given and studied enough on them to know

there is Truth in them 
Apoc , I like it that you used this  scriptures  to bring in your point 

  what does it mean to make stones bread ?

  and what does it mean to  throw  yourself down from a high place ?

and what does it mean to worship satan ?

  these questions all  come to my mind   as Jesus answered  Satan 
simply   Every Word that comes out of the Mouth of God , not just the bread    or the spiritual mans  sustaining food , because Jesus hungered for a  time and  understood  what it  is like to ''be empty''  just running on faith and nothing else .
  and the second  simple answer  was,Not to tempt  the  Lord God   into performing  miracles /signs
  in the  natural   realm  for Spiritual gain
  Seems to me that faith would NOT , be  the substance
  that would keep the Spiritual man alive  if that was what God done all the time
   the last simple answer  was  to worship God in Spirit and Truth

  not in the natural realm so much , because this is the ''signs '' miracles  the carnal men  of Israel seek after and  the nations , seek knowledge

  both seem to fail  when it comes to God and His will

   the darkness  that satan has kept men in, is a form of  ignorance  to the ways of God
  So I feel Satan is powerless  to any who have the Light / Knowledge of God and His Spirit in them dwelling

   when Jesus  called Peter satan / adversary , the thing that got me even more was  Jesus told him , you savor  ,'' taste '' the things that be of men and NOT of God
  this ''tasting  death ''  for every man   Jesus  went though was these temptations we also experience   in this world
 
satans/ devils  power over  death is triggered by '' fear ''and  ''bondage ''  not faith 
  So I do see them as  polar opposites

    the Fear of the Lord is the begining of Wisdom ,
  because  God is the One who is in total and complete  control  over all things entirely , the devil cannot touch you unless God allows it , and usually its for  your benefit , the destruction of the flesh is  one of the most painful ways there is to suffer , but it does teach us NOT to put any confidence in our flesh or  anyones flesh

  and Faith comes by hearing what the HOLY SPIRIT is saying

  and without faith it is impossible to please God
  Jesus heard His Father all the time  and His Father head Him all the time 
that confidence  and trust was unbreakable
  because Jesus was given the Spirit without measure 

  why ? I just figure it was because  Jesus was concieved in the Holy Spirit
  and that nature knows what it is Perfectly ,  by LOVE OF GOD

  being mindful  of the things of God is what the HOLY SPIRIT  is .

the works of God and Christ together as all  those found in Christ Body   in the  earth and  heaven and even below
  because  God is ALL consuming Fire ..

  the lake of fire where the  devil and false prophet and  beast are found
  are consumed by  God as with everything else  in the End

I like this study. Praise the Lord!

Satan... isn't he the one who scored the overtime goal between Boston and Buffalo last night? :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor:


Sorry, had to get that on there...

All joking aside, if Satan means aversary, then all of us at one point or another (I would gather to say maybe a few hundred times) have been a 'satan' to others we have come in contact with in our lives.  We all have adversaries throughout our lives, and the Devil happens to be the adversary of God, trying to destroy what He has already done.

Satan = adversary (adverse) = opposite of (what?)
Truth  = Word of God = Jesus Christ
                   — so —
            Satan is the The Lie

Quote from: Syndicated on April 22, 2010, 09:12:35 PM
Satan... isn't he the one who scored the overtime goal between Boston and Buffalo last night? :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor:


Sorry, had to get that on there...

All joking aside, if Satan means aversary, then all of us at one point or another (I would gather to say maybe a few hundred times) have been a 'satan' to others we have come in contact with in our lives.  We all have adversaries throughout our lives, and the Devil happens to be the adversary of God, trying to destroy what He has already done.

Amen

cp

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_louvin_cover1.jpg)

Hahaha!!!!  That's awesome Chuckt!

:laughing7:

Quote from: Syndicated on April 22, 2010, 09:12:35 PM
Satan... isn't he the one who scored the overtime goal between Boston and Buffalo last night? :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor:

:laugh:  Yeah... when it comes to OVER :clock: ---> :talkangry: has one heckuva... :Shoot:

Earlier I printed 9 pages of this post and discussion and I will say that by far it has been the most refreshing study I have seen to date. There is much to learn and say about this entity, that orthodox religions cannot begin to teach, for it would tear down, not just the building, but the very foundation. Praise the Lord Jesus King of Kings, Saviour of the world

Okay...I see what all are saying about Satan being an "adversary."
Then what of all the Scriptures of demons being cast out of people...demon possession, etc?
Please be patient with me, I come from a very Pentecostal background...a background where I was taught watching anything 'demonic' or witchcraft related can open my life up to such influences and eventually possess me.
I know, I know!  Many are laughing as they read this! 
I can also remember ministry experiences on the mission field where I KNOW I came in contact with forces, witches (whatever you want to call them).  Was all that in my head?  Are we saying those thing don't exist or that, in Jesus' name, we have power over them?  If it's all bologna, should I still be entertained by it...my heart still says 'no'.  BUT I can see how not buying into these beliefs can free me from a certain letter of the Law ingrained in me by the 'religious.'

I would like to read any input, especially coming from those of you have come from a similar background and how this has been worked out in your mind and hearts.

I am still sooooo new to UR and all the new things God is teaching me BUT still soooo ingrained with the doctrines I had pounded into the very fiber of my being! Soooo bound up by traditions of men!
Lord Jesus, please free me from all that is not true freedom in You!  Teach me to worship you in spirit and truth!

Amen.
And what a beautiful prayer.

I personally do not watch any TV or movies that contain demonic themes simply because, well,
they are very adverse to me.
I find them repulsive and unbearable to endure.
So perhaps there is a truth to the Pentecostal teachings.
Paul tells us that we fight not against flesh and blood but with powers and principalities of the darkness.

Ephesians: 6;12
For ours is not a conflict with mere flesh and blood, but with the despotisms, the empires, the forces that control and govern this dark world--the spiritual hosts of evil arrayed against us in the heavenly warfare.

We come in contact with these powers everyday in the unregenerated souls who do their constant bidding.
No it's not in your head — it's just that your spiritual eyes are open!

 ""principalities" and powers  were spoiled at the cross:

and just WHAT are these?

Col 2:14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 


Col 2:15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 


Col 2:16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 


it is true our war is not with flesh and blood, you cant beat the truth into anyone, and these powers have no power over flesh and blood, the battle is in the MIND, the heavenly places.

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk76/chuckart/th_temple8.gif)

the mind is the holy of holies in our temple........

chuckt

Quote from: crescent moon on April 23, 2010, 04:21:57 AM
Okay...I see what all are saying about Satan being an "adversary."
Then what of all the Scriptures of demons being cast out of people...demon possession, etc?
Please be patient with me, I come from a very Pentecostal background...a background where I was taught watching anything 'demonic' or witchcraft related can open my life up to such influences and eventually possess me.
I know, I know!  Many are laughing as they read this! 
I can also remember ministry experiences on the mission field where I KNOW I came in contact with forces, witches (whatever you want to call them).  Was all that in my head?  Are we saying those thing don't exist or that, in Jesus' name, we have power over them?  If it's all bologna, should I still be entertained by it...my heart still says 'no'.  BUT I can see how not buying into these beliefs can free me from a certain letter of the Law ingrained in me by the 'religious.'

I would like to read any input, especially coming from those of you have come from a similar background and how this has been worked out in your mind and hearts.

I am still sooooo new to UR and all the new things God is teaching me BUT still soooo ingrained with the doctrines I had pounded into the very fiber of my being! Soooo bound up by traditions of men!
Lord Jesus, please free me from all that is not true freedom in You!  Teach me to worship you in spirit and truth!

:cloud9: Hi; I would be considered of "Pentecostal" background myself although I don't proclaim myself as such and never have, but fit that "label" due to my experience with the Holy Ghost in gifts of the Spirit and speaking in tongues.

When I first read the NT I couldn't find any other kind of "Christian" in there, except a born from above, Spirit-filled, tongue speaking type, and I STILL haven't 24 years later.

That aside, I was also led of the Lord into being a deliverance minister for several years, and YES, the powers and principalities of the air (spirit) ARE real entities.

The heart/soul of man is like a womb; it will reproduce whatever seed is planted in it, and when He made us in His image that included the ability to create. WHAT we create, is the issue. The mind of Christ is as the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle pattern. Blessings and welcome to the forum......

Who taught us that principalities and powers is refering to a demonic realm or world?  What it that has a different intent all together?

Titus 3:1
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


If principalities and powers are demonic, then why on earth would Paul instruct Titus to remind people to be "subject" to them?  In other words, to be in subjection to them?  In the opening of chapter two, where this line of thought stems from, Paul exhorts Titus to preach this as "sound doctrine." 

I believe the church is missing it on this.

i agree big time nathan....

here he seems to be talking about rules and regulations and such:

Col 2:14   Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 


Col 2:15   [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 


Col 2:16   Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: 

 :cloud9: It's both. There are principalities and powers of the AIR, and there are people given positions of rulership and we are to obey the laws of the land. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 08:22:36 PM
:cloud9: It's both. There are principalities and powers of the AIR, and there are people given positions of rulership and we are to obey the laws of the land. Blessings....

floating up in the sky?

 :cloud9: A joker, eh?  :grin: You know what I mean.......air = breath = spirit.

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
:cloud9: A joker, eh?  :grin: You know what I mean.......air = breath = spirit.

good! :icon_jokercolor: :happy3: :happy3: :happy3:

Man . . .I just spent 20 minutes or so posting to this again but something must have happened as it's obviously not showing up.  

So Card, say you're right . . . which I personally tend to agree with as well.  But say it's both.  Then the next question I would as would be "which one do I need to be aware of the most?"  Do I identify with demonic activity and casting out demons everywhere I go?  

Or, do I identify  the powers of carnal men who've put themselves in high places . . .and not just physical men, but the carnality that influenced them to do it?  What influenced them can just as easily influence me.  What were most of the warnings to the church about?  Demons infiltraiting?  Or false doctrines . . .rudimental mindsets . . . religious enforcements?  Or worshiping satan?

Of the two, which are the most subtle of all the beasts in the field?  Which have the greatest potential in deceiving me?  Granted a part of Jesus ministry did establish the fact that his name had the power above all other forces above, on, and below the earth.  But that was not his predominant message, to cast out demons.  It was simply a "sign" revealing where the real authority was at.  He didn't teach about the principle of demons, but he did preach about the kingdom of heaven.  He didn't preach "against" demons, but he did preach against the religious mindsets.

2 Corinthians 10
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)  5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Not about demonic warfare, but it does seem to be dealing with the carnal mind.  Pulling down of strongholds and throwing down imaginations.  A stronghold is simply a principle that one chooses to be immovable on.  Bringing "thoughts" into captivity . . .it's not about demons, it's about religiousness.

Colossians 2
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;  3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Truth comes by way of revelation from the Father, not through proof of a written passage.  Because it's "hid" not from us, but "for" us.  It is Christ who removes the veil of understanding.  Sorry, I just read that in looking for something else.

A little further down, Paul actually connects prinipality and power with the rudiments, which actually means first principles.  It's not about demons, it's about religion overshadowing truth.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.  9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

 :cloud9: Hi Nate........not saying it needs to be foremost in people's mindset, but it IS a first principle as the laying on of hands is listed as one of the things we leave to go unto perfection in Hebrews. People are in different stages in their walks and I feel we have to be mindful not to close a door to them that He brought us thru.

The laying on of hands came from the practice established in the Tabernacle service, and symbolized the flesh of man being dealt with, as I'm sure you know.

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual. The reason they're spiritual is because it takes the spiritual to deal with the spiritual.

The spiritual weapons are needed to pull down the spiritual strongholds, which is why it's said that our weapons to deal with stongholds are not carnal, but spiritual.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the minds needing to be changed, just pointing out that the origin of thoughts can also be spiritual too.

To explain to people how subtle the enemy of our souls is, I usually ask people if they have ever been up high on a bridge or something and not had a thought about falling or even what it would be like to jump. I've never seen anyone yet say no.

The reason is Satan took Jesus up to a high pinnacle of the temple and told him to throw Himself down. The servant is not greater than the master, so both are tempted in this way.

The enemy of our soul speaks as a thought, not just as some demoniac voice from the movies. A thought is subtle. Which is why we are to renew our minds to learn to distinguish His thoughts from our thoughts and from the enemy's thoughts. Blessings....

Quote from: chuckt on April 23, 2010, 02:19:01 PM

the mind is the holy of holies in our temple........

chuckt

Hi Chuck,
Would you please explain your quote?
Thanks.

Quote from: NathanHe didn't teach about the principle of demons, but he did preach about the kingdom of heaven.

It's kind of hand in glove, isn't it?

Matthew 12:28
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Yes and no . . .Yes in that there's a connection, but no in that he never "taught" about demonic warfare or demons as much as he did about the principles of his kingdom, which does not, not for me anyway, operate on the demonic level.  In fact, the verse you quoted and another dealing with their amazment about the fact that demons respond to his name when they used it was more down playing the demonic and turning it around to emphasize the kingdom. 

The ability to cast out demons is not a platform to teach about demons, launch into a demon ministry, or have a movement emphasizing demonic manifestations.  It's simply a "sign" illuminating where the true authority lies.  It's not in man, it's in men but only through Christ.  A sign is simply something pointing to something greater.

Quote from: Nathan on April 24, 2010, 01:45:31 AM
Yes and no . . .Yes in that there's a connection, but no in that he never "taught" about demonic warfare or demons as much as he did about the principles of his kingdom, which does not, not for me anyway, operate on the demonic level.  In fact, the verse you quoted and another dealing with their amazment about the fact that demons respond to his name when they used it was more down playing the demonic and turning it around to emphasize the kingdom. 

The ability to cast out demons is not a platform to teach about demons, launch into a demon ministry, or have a movement emphasizing demonic manifestations.  It's simply a "sign" illuminating where the true authority lies.  It's not in man, it's in men but only through Christ.  A sign is simply something pointing to something greater.

Intuitive or direct recognition; an artist of rare perception  :thumbsup:

Yeah pm, that's good.

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....It's HIS MINISTRY which unfolds as a natural by-product of HIS NATURE manifested as the anointing.

When He anointed them and sent them out, they found out then that the demons were subject to them. Why is that? Even the same reason the Gadarenes man's demons cried out in His presence.
Blessings.....

PS. And He DID teach on it more than you think; pages and pages. The separation of light from darkness is all thru the book. Deliverance is the separation of the two. Like everything else nearly, it is hid to the uniniated until it's their season.

I must be missing it.
I don't see any discord here.

Sometimes we hurt.
Sometimes our hearts ache.
Sometimes we cry out in pain.

peacemaker

Quote from: CardinalThe separation of light from darkness is all thru the book. Deliverance is the separation of the two.

Yes!  It's the first thing he does.


3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

--Gen 1

Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 24, 2010, 03:28:47 AM
I must be missing it.
I don't see any discord here.

the forum is so refreshing from whence i come....  :happy3:

Nathan & Cardinal (or anyone else):

Going off on another tangent, let's discuss obeying the law of the land.  How do we as Christians rectify that with "obeying God and not man"?  Where is the line drawn in this issue?  There are many examples in the Bible where people defied civil law!  Should those that help runaway slaves not have done so?  Should those that hid the Jews in WWII not have done so?  At what point as Christians should we take a stand against tyranny IF the Bible tells us to obey?
There are many instances where Jesus stated that civil issues such as paying taxes, breaking free from Roman tyranny, etc. were not what He came for?  Was the His way of saying we should just go along with it?
Does that mean we shouldn't be politically active or even be concerned with what's occurring the the political realms?
Should we just focus energies on Godly issues and when civil law requires us to do something unethical we take and stand and pay the civil consequences?

 :cloud9: As we get closer to God, the Spirit of God will direct our paths as to what we should do in every situation.

Sometimes when we break the law of the land unknowingly, I know from personal experience, He will "suspend" the law of the land punishment.

I'm thinking of a time I was driving, and talking to my daughter, not paying attention to the reduced speed zone in a well known speed trap area. The police sit there nearly daily, catching people and writing tickets.

So I was 20 mph over and by rights, should have gotten a ticket. When I saw the lights come on, I realized I was WAY over the limit, and started praying asking God for mercy (because I did it oblivious to my surroundings, not intentionally), and for favor with the policeman. He let me go. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 29, 2010, 03:06:07 PM
:cloud9: As we get closer to God, the Spirit of God will direct our paths as to what we should do in every situation.
Blessings.....

Amen Card,
It is His life that is being manifested in the earth.

Jesus says: "Take my yoke."
When we take it we will be directed by the Master.
The one that holds the reigns directs the Way.

When pursuing the nature of Christ as opposed to the literal things written about Christ, the one thing that emerges often with his ministry and nature was that he was always tending to his neighbors.  He wasn't trying to establish a political agenda or making a political statement.

Keep in mind when Jesus came, Israel was politically under the control of Rome.  And that was not by choice, but by the result of a violent take-over.  There is a movement out there even today, that believes Judas purposefully manipluated the capture of Jesus because he believed Jesus would literally overthrow anyone who tried to arrest him because, like the rest of the disciples, he also believed when Jesus stated that he would take the seat of David, that meant that he would return Israel to their previous heirchy and he, Jesus, would be king over Israel.  It was a politcal ploy to get Israel back to being an independant nation.

But to us, it's clear Jesus did not come to literally be king over anyone.  His purpose was a spiritual one.  That's why he stated give unto 'Ceasar" what is Ceasars.  That had to have  a bit of a sting to it because regardless of what religious sect you were a part of, everyone hated being under the control of Rome.  Living by the law of the land, for me, is like anything else in life, there's a balance to everything.  

Like Cardinal, I tend to have a heavy foot from time to time.  I break the speeding laws more than I care to admit.  Does that affect my righteousness?  Is my rightstanding with God, who is spirit, being threatened by my lead-foot activities, which is natural?  Nothing separates us from God's love.  If hell and death can't, neither can my inability to keep the vehicle below the limits of the law.  Does that mean it's okay?  Everything has consequences.  And unlike Cardinal, in my case, I have yet to have a cop just give me a warning to slow it down.  My last one was about 6 weeks ago, I did a "slow-and-go" through a stop sign at 10:00 at night leaving a Wal-mart parking lot . . .cost me over $100 for the stupid ticket!

But when it comes to religious law, Jesus kept getting in hot water with the religious crowd due to the fact that he kept breaking them to show the spiritual principles of the kingdom.  So instead of honoring those who were considered to be in high places in the church, those were the ones that he infuriorated the most.  No mention of him getting ticketed by the pagans.

As to the slavery issue, even in the New Testament there is a reference to the slaves in that if you're a slave, be a godly one and show God's love through you toward your masters.  There was no hint or clue that slavery is a sin.  Culture is a very amusing thing.

QuoteAs to the slavery issue, even in the New Testament there is a reference to the slaves in that if you're a slave, be a godly one and show God's love through you toward your masters.  There was no hint or clue that slavery is a sin.  Culture is a very amusing thing.

Nathan, most references in the new testament, including the one you mention above is refering to a job. If you work for someone they refered to him as your master and you as salve.

They were talking about working at a high level with a good and honest attitude not bickering, not stealing but giving a good and honest effort to earn your pay as though you were working for God.

Quote from: crescent moon on April 23, 2010, 04:21:57 AM
Okay...I see what all are saying about Satan being an "adversary."
Then what of all the Scriptures of demons being cast out of people...demon possession, etc?
Please be patient with me, I come from a very Pentecostal background...a background where I was taught watching anything 'demonic' or witchcraft related can open my life up to such influences and eventually possess me.
I know, I know!  Many are laughing as they read this! 
I can also remember ministry experiences on the mission field where I KNOW I came in contact with forces, witches (whatever you want to call them).  Was all that in my head?  Are we saying those thing don't exist or that, in Jesus' name, we have power over them?  If it's all bologna, should I still be entertained by it...my heart still says 'no'.  BUT I can see how not buying into these beliefs can free me from a certain letter of the Law ingrained in me by the 'religious.'

I would like to read any input, especially coming from those of you have come from a similar background and how this has been worked out in your mind and hearts.

I am still sooooo new to UR and all the new things God is teaching me BUT still soooo ingrained with the doctrines I had pounded into the very fiber of my being! Soooo bound up by traditions of men!
Lord Jesus, please free me from all that is not true freedom in You!  Teach me to worship you in spirit and truth!

Hi crescent moon!

I did a study on this once but I can't find it so I think it might be on my computer at work, but I know that one of the verses that I looked at was Mat 4:24 which speaks of those "possessed with devils":

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

What I found interesting is not only what the word means but the "tense" (and "voice") of the verb.

The phrase in red is translated from the Greek word below:

daimonizomai (G1139)

1) to be under the power of a demon.

And, according to Strong's, this word is the middle voice of from δαίμων (G1142)

1) a god, a goddess

a) an inferior deity, whether good or bad

2) in the NT, an evil spirit


Interesting, since Jesus said: "Is it not written that ye are gods?" Right?

But what is even more interesting is that in Classical Greek, the middle voice is often reflexive, denoting that the subject acts on or for itself.

Quote from: crescent moon on April 23, 2010, 04:21:57 AM
Okay...I see what all are saying about Satan being an "adversary."
Then what of all the Scriptures of demons being cast out of people...demon possession, etc?
Please be patient with me, I come from a very Pentecostal background...a background where I was taught watching anything 'demonic' or witchcraft related can open my life up to such influences and eventually possess me.
I know, I know!  Many are laughing as they read this! 
I can also remember ministry experiences on the mission field where I KNOW I came in contact with forces, witches (whatever you want to call them).  Was all that in my head?  Are we saying those thing don't exist or that, in Jesus' name, we have power over them?  If it's all bologna, should I still be entertained by it...my heart still says 'no'.  BUT I can see how not buying into these beliefs can free me from a certain letter of the Law ingrained in me by the 'religious.'

I would like to read any input, especially coming from those of you have come from a similar background and how this has been worked out in your mind and hearts.

I am still sooooo new to UR and all the new things God is teaching me BUT still soooo ingrained with the doctrines I had pounded into the very fiber of my being! Soooo bound up by traditions of men!
Lord Jesus, please free me from all that is not true freedom in You!  Teach me to worship you in spirit and truth!

I have believed in UR for a long time. My education in the wisdom of God is growing as I continue to seek Him. I believe that satan is the devil, the adversary, one of the sons of God, the ruler of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms, the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience. I have cast out demons, recently- I believe they are real, not just elements of our fallen nature. Although Pentecostalism has many imbalances and man-made traditions, not everything you learned there is false. Also, many on these boards come from backgrounds where they received teachings and traditions that they still carry and promote as a part and parcel of UR. Others have gone beyond what is written into speculations that they teach as doctrine. I might be such a person myself, who knows :dontknow:! I would counsel you to move slowly, read carefully, pray fervently - trust the Teacher. Test all things by the Word, the scriptures are what led me to UR, and the Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth.

As I've been in the process of being transformed in my own thinking from religion to relief through the incrimental wooing and calling of the deep, I'm more inclined to give caution to my personal interpretation of what my translation of Scripture is saying and stand back from asserting a mental image of what I "think" is to be truth, and let the nature of Truth reveal itself.

Obviously don't have all the answers and when you're dealing with demons and the devil, it's tough to share intimate things on an open forum because there's always going to be people out there who will take issue with your personal experiences in one fashion or another. 

I too have dealt with the "demonic" on both sides.  I've had things delivered from me, and I've assisted others in being delivered.  So I'm not trying to denounce the importance.  We all have the same goal here, or at least from where I'm at, I perceive this to be true.  We all want to know what is truth.  The confusion comes when "a" truth is received by many who are at different levels of relationship with the Father.

We just put a fire pit in our back yard this year.  I have twin sons who are 5.  They love to roast marshmellows.  I've learned I can tell them and tell them "Do not get too close to the fire, you'll get burned".  But to a five year old, even though they have perfect hearing, they don't hear a word you say once the fire is going and there's a stick in their hand.  We can have 20 people of different ages around the fire and I can say that one warning to all of them and each of them will respond to the warning according to their age.

It's a long winded way of saying that when dealing with demons and devils, we all respond differently to this because we're all at different places of relationship with the Father.  It's not that I don't believe demons and devils exist.  For me, it's their origin that has changed.  I think that 99.9% of all of my issues originate in the mind of man and manifest to various levels within the mind of man.  Our minds perceive truth according to our levels of experiences.  Truth never changes, it's only our perspectives of Truth that change.  Religion has ingrained so much junk in me that I now use caution to pretty much everything I learned and experienced in tradition.

In the end, the crown Jesus wore to the cross, for me, signifies that the curse of the mind has been dealt with in the flesh as well as in the spirit.  But because we are still living in these earthly bodies, we are still in subjection to the laws of this realm.  which is to say that we are still at different levels of growth in these spiritual truths.  We still have to go through the process of maturity, which means we continue to see one truth on different plains.

I liked that post Nathan. I believe that the vast majority of our bondages are healed through the renewing of the mind, fellowship, forgiveness and prayer. The elevation of the demonic to cover all our ills is definitely an imbalance of truth-which is the nature of most deception. I think it is just as unwise to swing to the other extreme and dismiss things the scripture express plainly, as if our education in physcology or typology or mythology has exceeded the wisdom of the Narrator of the logos. So many truths become lies when the excesses of the carnal mind are applied to them. peace, John

Theres good reasons for the lack of mention about Satan in the bible and that is the less we know about him the better, not because of ignorance but because, there is no reason to dwell upon evil.

If one studies the bible one can draw many truths about Satan, how he works etc. A lot of churches dismiss this being, they would rather come up with their own ideas, rather than learn from the bible.

If someone wants to know more about the devil please send me a personal message and I'll direct you to a site that has extensive teachings on the subject.

The Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role, and an accuser (devil)
is known for his unrighteous disposition. "You will meet many adversities in this life."

peacemaker

satan likes it when we don't recognize that he exists, you cannot fight someone that you don't see, Christ gave us power over this being for a reason, to go and preach the gospel and casting out demons being just one of the works commanded to do in Jesus name.

Quote from: thinktank on July 13, 2010, 07:59:36 PM
satan likes it when we don't recognize that he exists, you cannot fight someone that you don't see, Christ gave us power over this being for a reason, to go and preach the gospel and casting out demons being just one of the works commanded to do in Jesus name.

• (1)  If you would, please prove "satan" to be a "he"?
• (2)  If you would, please explain why Eve could see this "serpent" and talk to "him" and WE cannot?
• (3)  If you would, please note "DEMONS" in the Scriptures
• (4)  Where is found, the "command" to "cast out demons"?

There is not even ONE Scripture which notes "satan" as a ..."being"... that I have found, could you also QUOTE even ONE for me?

When CHRIST is living in the LIFE... it is not some mythical "being" that has been "overcome"... rather it is our own "SELF" oriented WILL that "steps down" -- Gal 2:20 -- which "self will" JESUS did not ever give place to... as He always did the WILL of the Father -- John 5:19,30

So when we follow Him by submitting to the WORD, then we are no longer employing our own "will", we are employing the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH within our actions and words, as did JESUS...

No mythical being called "satan" has been dispensed... rather, it is our WILL  which is that which is dispensed, for it is the "WILL" of man that is ADVERSE to the COMMAND of the WORD, of YHVH!

It is the CARNAL "will" within the heart of man which is "DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS, and desparately WICKED" -- Jer 17:9 -- and which operates in the flesh, succumbing to the desires of the flesh -- Rom 8:14-18 -- that is indeed that which is brought into submission by the WORD/CHRIST, not some imagined fairy tale of a "red guy" with a "pitchfork" which has charge of a mythical "kingdom" called "hell"... :mnah:

Religious theologies have taken the sin in the Garden, and have erected the "devil made me do it" / "pass the buck" --- excuses for CARNAL decisions made from "promptings" of the FLESH via the "WILL" of SELF, which TRANSGRESSES that which has been COMMANDED by the SPIRIT of YHVH -- Gen 2:17

One can observe Eve's experience, and see that ALL the temptations she succumbed to were fallen to the curious promptings of her own flesh -- Gen 2:6 --

(1) lust of the eye = [the fruit was pleasant to the EYES] 
(2) lust of the flesh = [the fruit was good for FOOD]
(3) Accompanied by the youthful/childish and DOUBTFILLED notion that death would not overcome her "life" -- pride of life = [assuming in eating the fruit, she would NOT surely DIE]  --

So under all these SELF oriented and DECEITFUL deductions of her OWN HEART, she indeed ate of the tree which contained this mysterious "knowledge" which she did not possess --->

1 John 2:16 --- These 3 principles are they which CHRIST overcame... for they are the comprising of "the WORLD", and are NOT "of the Father"...

This process is the SAME working process of SIN has occured in everyone, ever since...  :dontknow:  There is no "personage" that appears to a man, when a beautiful woman walks before him, that "whispers unto him" -- "hey, check out that chick" -- this is a manifestation of the inherent DECEIT which prevails in the HEART of men (and women)... which is NATURALLY FIRST -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- and is unconverted, unrevealed, uninspired, and completely WITHIN THE FLESH...  :sigh:

Man has been ceaselessly obsessed since the very beginning of time, and will be consumed of that obsession until the very end... which is the "gaining of knowledge" he/she does not yet have...  :dontknow:

It was NOT via the promptings of a mythical IMMENSELY POWERFUL talking "snake"... which has NEVER BEEN SEEN AGAIN!!!   

Rather it was Eve's own thoughts, that were indeed, NOT found to be IN THE CAPTIVITY of CHRIST/Command of the WORD -- 2 Cor 10:5 -- which "captivity" in turn, is IN SUBMISSION to YHVH at all times -- John 8:29

JESUS did not ever succumb to His own "will", for He always DID the will of YHVH -- Matt 4:4

And when the promptings of His own "will"/flesh --- tempted Him to seek otherwise, ...He wisely remained submitted unto the WILL of YHVH unto death... dispensing the proposal of His own "will" (which indeed was the "tempter") -- and had which prompted Him to ask that the cup might pass -- Luke 22:42 -- the cup did NOT pass... so the "will" of CHRIST which he made known, was not manifest... rather the WILL of YHVH indeed was manifest...

I just now read Matthew Chapter 4 verses thru 11 this being Satan seems to be real, or else Jesus was wrestling and talking to himself.. :dontknow:

Quote from: SQ on July 14, 2010, 12:56:45 AM
I just now read Matthew Chapter 4 verses thru 11 this being Satan seems to be real, or else Jesus was wrestling and talking to himself.. :dontknow:

No one is saying that "satan" (adversity) is not real... just not a sentient being with an agenda that is OMNIPRESENT.

At a dance you see a cute girl, and say silently to yourself, "should I ask her to dance"? ...who are you speaking to?

When you come up to a stop sign, and you have the option of turning left or right, and you say aloud... "which way should I go?" ...who are you talking to? :dunno:

Or if you are by yourself at your computer, thinking of going to a concert, and there is an additional $20 a seat to sit closer to the stage, ...and you say "hmmm... which seats should I buy"?  ...who are you talking to?

That YOU and I are able to think and speak to ourselves, even correct ourselves... or suggest to ourselves... what makes you think CHRIST did not experience this as a human being?  :dontknow:

Quote from: SQ on July 14, 2010, 12:56:45 AM
I just now read Matthew Chapter 4 verses thru 11 this being Satan seems to be real, or else Jesus was wrestling and talking to himself.. :dontknow:

...or with that of another person?

And he (an accuser) led Him to Jerusalem, and having Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple said to Him,

"If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here..."

Man-made stone temples. 

peacemaker

I had not thought of that before thanks,I will read with that perspective in mind.  :thumbsup:

Thanks WillyH I understand now,I appreciate you and others persisting to help others like myself to understand.
A load lifited!!  :cloud9:

Satan is no part of Jesus even in his human state.

Jesus tells us that satan has no part of him.

How can satan cast out satan?


John 14:30 (King James Version)

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


In Mat 4:10 Jesus tells satan to "Go away."    Is he telling a part of himself to leave?

No.  Satan is real, he has a kingdom here on earth, and only the light of Christ casts him out.



John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AM
Satan is no part of Jesus even in his human state.

Jesus tells us that satan has no part of him.

How can satan cast out satan?


John 14:30 (King James Version)

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.


In Mat 4:10 Jesus tells satan to "Go away."    Is he telling a part of himself to leave?

No.  Satan is real, he has a kingdom here on earth, and only the light of Christ casts him out.



John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

:iagree:

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AM
Satan is no part of Jesus even in his human state.

I think it is your observation/belief, of what "satan" IS... that forms the essence of this statement... and it avoids the fact that ADVERSITY did in fact approach CHRIST, and DID tempt Him (AS -- IT does us), while He lived within the FLESH... as has IT appeared to, and in ALL men, ...amongst which He is numbered.

He was TEMPTED ...as are we -- Heb 4:15 -- I, personally, have never ONCE, had any "being" or "talking snake" ...called "satan" ever approach me, and attempt to ensnare me in sin. :mnah:

As do many -- even most, ...you [presently] believe "satan" to be a "personage or being"... which is NOT what "satan" IS...

"satan" is simply the Hebrew word which describes, that which is ADVERSARY or ADVERSE to holiness, and to the COMMAND of YHVH...  It is a principality/power that must be overcome within us... not a victory over an external, and IMMENSELY POWERFUL, OMNIPRESENT, "fallen angel"... which is invisible and inaudible to us... :mnah:

The Apostle Paul notes his own personal battle to be with his FLESH, not with a "being" called "satan" -- Rom 8 -- "satan" is not even mentioned in this entire personal confessional of Paul... rather, the FLESH is that which the SPIRIT (within us) does battle, not some theologically/religiously invented external "being"...

That JESUS expressed the desire that the "cup pass" and then in conjunction, insisted upon the WILL of YHVH to be done (and in manifestation,  the "cup" did not "pass") --- displays that the desire of JESUS that the "cup pass" -- which DID NOT take place, was indeed ADVERSE to the actual manifestation of the WILL of YHVH... which DID take place.

That does not mean that JESUS purposed conscious adversity to YHVH... it means that the flesh in which He resided, He DID NOT KNOW that the possibility was or was not available for the "cup to pass"... and therefore asked it to be considered, yet firmly stated that if this "possibility" was not in line with the WILL of YHVH, that it be dispensed of.

Though CHRIST did not purpose adversity... does not remove the fact that the request He made WAS ADVERSE to the WILL of YHVH, and was dispensed of accordingly... also, per His request...

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMJesus tells us that satan has no part of him.

How can satan cast out satan?

John 14:30 (King James Version)

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

"satan" cannot cast out "satan", for "satan" is not sentient.  Man, via submission to the WORD and WILL of God, casts out "satan"...

ADVERSITY did not appear in the life and work of CHRIST, however... It did approach Him and His mind... as His flesh, in which is found the proposing of the adversity of SIN, also ...proposed IT [adversity] to Him...

As CHRIST overcame the prompting desires of His flesh... He displayed that though He was IN sinful flesh, IT had no power over Him, neither would IT have "part" in His doings.

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMIn Mat 4:10 Jesus tells satan to "Go away."    Is he telling a part of himself to leave?

Let me say this... I had surgery... and due to deep distress within it while in recovery, I vocally instructed the PAIN to "go away"... shall indeed my "pain", be considered a "being", on the basis that I instructed IT to "go away"?   

Also, CHRIST specifically ADDRESSED Peter as "satan"... if we are observing within your perspective, then CHRIST was speaking the VERY SAME STATEMENT as He did in -- Matt 4:10 -- to His CHOSEN Apostle upon which He also notes He would "build His church"! -- Mark 8:33 

Let's face it Molly... Though you are welcome to believe what you like, ...Peter was not and IS NOT "satan", ...rather, that which CHRIST in both these instances was addressing, was that ADVERSE information and suggestion, depart from Him.

JESUS is speaking in terms of information made available to Him... In Matt 4:10 -- CHRIST is directing the THOUGHT of adversity to "go away"... He is not saying that adversity cannot approach Him... (which it did)... and give Him opportunity to succumb to it...

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMNo.  Satan is real, he has a kingdom here on earth, and only the light of Christ casts him out.

As I said, in my opening comment to you... this stated perception is the foundation for what you believe concerning WHAT "satan" ...is... and is that which is subject to question.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMJohn 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

The "ruler" of this world is the ADVERSITY present in man, which transgresses the COMMAND of God... MEN rule this world, not an imaginary, invisible, inaudible, omnipresent evil "being", which men in their demented state have invented to blame, for their own obstinate and self imposed, indescretions... which have produced the myriad sorrows that we find documented in history, and which are availing themselves in the present, and which are also, unfortunately...  :sigh: ...yet to come... :pitiful:

JESUS dispensed of ADVERSITY concerning the ultimate destiny of MAN, within the manifestation of OBEDIENCE to the COMMAND and WILL of YHVH, within His life, thereby "casting it out"... and thereby positioning Himself as the past, present and future, JUDGE of ADVERSITY, for He did not partake in IT...

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



"the course" [of this world]

αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins -- or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -- Lucifer.

--Saul Alinksy, Rules for Radicals



James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


"resist" [the devil]

G436
ανθίστημι
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.




We may not be able to personally stop the oil spill
in the Gulf...

And we can't put competent, ethical people in the
government overnight...

But we CAN exert pressure to stop the spraying
of hundreds of thousands of gallons of a dangerous
neurotoxic - Corexit - in the Gulf of Mexico.

http://www.stopthespraying.org/

Facts about Corexit:

* Corexit is 4x more toxic than crude oil

* Corexit is banned as too dangerous to use in the UK

* Corexit is being sprayed by the hundreds of thousands
of gallons on the Gulf by plane with most of it ending up
in the atmosphere

* Corexit is not an effective way to remedy oil spills and
is being used solely to mask the problem

* Corexit has the potential to permanently contaminate
drinking water supplies in the areas it is being sprayed

You can help stop this now by taking some very simple
actions.

Video:

http://www.stopthespraying.org/

- Brasscheck

 :sigh:

Quote from: Molly on July 15, 2010, 07:36:00 AM
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

"the course" [of this world]

αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

"resist" [the devil]

G436
ανθίστημι
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.

Great post, Molly.

I was reading 1 Chron 21 this morning and looked up a commentary about the use of "Satan" in the first verse. I thought this was an interesting comparison ...

This is the first instance in Scripture where Satan is referred to and actually given a name. In Job he is referred to as "the adversary." Here there is no definite article ("the") and "Satan" now becomes his name. In other words, just as Hebrew names describe a situation or relationship, Satan's name describes his nature.

This is also true of the Messiah. Throughout Scripture He is referred to as "the Anointed One". But in Daniel, and from that time forward, the definite article ("the") is dropped and He is simply referred to as "Messiah." He has become His name which reflects His nature.

I believe satan is a spiritual entity, and not just our own thoughts. We know Jesus is Messiah, come in the flesh. Why wouldn't satan also be an entity separate from "self?"

I just looked up all instances of "advesary"
The Hebrew is often diffrent from what you read in KJV
Often Advesary is NOT satan

^KJVExo 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
^KJV1Sa 1:6 And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.

6887 rr;c' tsarar {tsaw-rar'}
Meaning:  1) to bind, be narrow, be in distress, make narrow, cause distress, besiege, be straitened, be bound 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to bind, tie up, shut up 1a2) to be scant, be cramped, be in straits 1b) (Pual) to be bound, be tied up 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to make narrow for, cause distress to, press hard upon 1c2) to suffer distress 2) to show hostility toward, vex 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to show hostility toward, treat with enmity, vex, harass 1a2) vexer, harasser (participle)

---

^KJVEst 7:6 And Esther said, The adversary and enemy is this wicked Haman. Then Haman was afraid before the king and the queen.
0376 vyai 'iysh {eesh}
Meaning:  1) man 1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female) 1b) husband 1c) human being, person (in contrast to God) 1d) servant 1e) mankind 1f) champion 1g) great man 2) whosoever 3) each (adjective)
Origin:  contracted for 0582 [or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant]; TWOT - 83a; n m

---

QuoteThis is the first instance in Scripture where Satan is referred to and actually given a name.

That's not correct. The first one (I found) is in Numbers.
^KJVNum 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
^KJV1Sa 29:4 And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?
^KJV1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
<and more verses...>
In Hebrew it's Satan

The apostle Paul refers to himself as 'one born out of due time.'[1Cor 15:9]

"one born out of due time"
G1626
ἔκτρωμα
ektrōma
ek'-tro-mah
From a compound of G1537 and τιτρώσκω titrōskō (to wound); a miscarriage (abortion), that is, (by analogy) untimely birth: - born out of due time.


He has his own reasons for saying this, but how many of us have felt the same way?

Question:

Are we still in the age that is ruled by Satan--the age referred to in this scripture?

Ephesians 2:2 (Amplified Bible)
2In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].



Are we thus also literally born out of due time?  Born first into an age whose default position is to follow or be greatly influenced by the demon spirit of Satan and, then, born again from above?

It certainly would explain a lot.

   

 :cloud9: I'm not following you, Molly.... :dontknow:

She means those in this age are influenced by demons and cannot do much about it. But once Christ is accepted we are no longer part of this kingdom but are part of heaven, citizens of heaven, priests of Christ, we go and preach the gospel and cast out demons from them who are opressed by the devil and many other things, such as praying thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 :cloud9: Oh, I see....well, weren't we all before coming into His Kingdom?

Quote from: Cardinal on July 15, 2010, 08:47:08 PM
:cloud9: I'm not following you, Molly.... :dontknow:

Long story short:  we are spiritually in a different age from the world?

That's why he says, they will hate you, they will persecute you--for my sake.

Quote from: thinktank on July 15, 2010, 08:59:10 PM
She means those in this age are influenced by demons and cannot do much about it. But once Christ is accepted we are no longer part of this kingdom but are part of heaven, citizens of heaven, priests of Christ, we go and preach the gospel and cast out demons from them who are opressed by the devil and many other things, such as praying thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

yeah. that, too. :goodpost:

Quote from: willieH on July 13, 2010, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 13, 2010, 07:59:36 PM

• (1)  If you would, please prove "satan" to be a "he"?
• (2)  If you would, please explain why Eve could see this "serpent" and talk to "him" and WE cannot?
• (3)  If you would, please note "DEMONS" in the Scriptures
• (4)  Where is found, the "command" to "cast out demons"?

Revelations 12:4, "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

2 Corinthians 12:7-10

There is not even ONE Scripture which notes "satan" as a ..."being"... that I have found, could you also QUOTE even ONE for me?

Daniel 10:13, "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

What kind of human "thought" "temptation" is so strong that it prevents a powerful figure called the son of man, who is Jesus, visiting Daniel, that it requires the warrior archangel Michael to fight this being. Michael the archangel is the most powerful military warrior in Gods arsenal, would a mere "thought" require this level of warfare?

How can a mere Earthly king withstand and prevent God himself from appearing to Daniel if this is talking about an Earthly king of Persia. Daniel is praying in the spirit and is dealing with "spiritual things".

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 12:10

Read the book of Job and Satan is before the throne of God, ACCUSING Job of his sins to God, the book of JOB is BC before Christ.
Now look at that verse, NOW IS COME SALVATION, FOR THE ACCUSER of our BRETHREN is CAST DOWN
When did Satan get cast down? The same time that SAlvation, strength and the kingdom of our God came upon the Earth. When was that?

I beheld Satan as lightening falleth from heaven
Jesus


Mark 1:39, "And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils."

Here he not only preached but also CAST OUT devils. The correct translation should be "demons".

When someone preaches you either believe/receive the word or you don't, when you have a demon you either ask for deliverance or you don't


Mark 16:15-18, "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

The aposlte Paul, preached, he prayed in tongues, he got bitten by a snake and did not die, he laid hands on hakerchiefs and healed people via anointed transfer.

Didn't Jesus say

John 14:12, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."

Yet another verse that says Jesus went to his father, in fact if you believe that Jesus is upon the Earth it could be dangerous territory, for if Christ approached you and said, hey come into the desert, would you go? Jesus said, don't go into the desert, but look UP, because that's where Jesus is my friends. Christ within us is his spirit, the holy ghost. A good way to imagine the holy ghost is like a cup, who has his own personality, but can fill his cup with the spirit of Jesus and the father, to dwell withinus. Thats why the father seeks dwelling places for all of them, the Father, son and holy ghost. Father in heaven, Jesus resurected in heaven and the holy ghost upon the earth who is within us and is poured out on all flesh (Acts), so if the holy ghost be within you, also Christ and also the father.

When CHRIST is living in the LIFE... it is not some mythical "being" that has been "overcome"... rather it is our own "SELF" oriented WILL that "steps down" -- Gal 2:20 -- which "self will" JESUS did not ever give place to... as He always did the WILL of the Father -- John 5:19,30

So when we follow Him by submitting to the WORD, then we are no longer employing our own "will", we are employing the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH within our actions and words, as did JESUS...

No mythical being called "satan" has been dispensed... rather, it is our WILL  which is that which is dispensed, for it is the "WILL" of man that is ADVERSE to the COMMAND of the WORD, of YHVH!

It is the CARNAL "will" within the heart of man which is "DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS, and desparately WICKED" -- Jer 17:9 -- and which operates in the flesh, succumbing to the desires of the flesh -- Rom 8:14-18 -- that is indeed that which is brought into submission by the WORD/CHRIST, not some imagined fairy tale of a "red guy" with a "pitchfork" which has charge of a mythical "kingdom" called "hell"... :mnah:

What you are saying is only one side of the coin  :2c: the other half is that we battle not against flesh and blood but [battle]principalities and powers in heavanly places

Religious theologies have taken the sin in the Garden, and have erected the "devil made me do it" / "pass the buck" --- excuses for CARNAL decisions made from "promptings" of the FLESH via the "WILL" of SELF, which TRANSGRESSES that which has been COMMANDED by the SPIRIT of YHVH -- Gen 2:17

Some do blame the devil and others blame God :winkgrin: some are wrong some are right, take this scripture for example

Acts 16:18

Matthew 15:22, "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil."

If you look up the phrase 'vexed with a devil' in the NT Greek, we find the word daimonizomai, which is the same word used behind the phrase 'possessed with a devil'. This Greek word has several meanings. It can mean a person is under the demon's power, harassed, troubled, tormented by evil spirits or simply to have an unclean spirit.

Matthew 12:22

One can observe Eve's experience, and see that ALL the temptations she succumbed to were fallen to the curious promptings of her own flesh -- Gen 2:6 --

(1) lust of the eye = [the fruit was pleasant to the EYES]  
(2) lust of the flesh = [the fruit was good for FOOD]
(3) Accompanied by the youthful/childish and DOUBTFILLED notion that death would not overcome her "life" -- pride of life = [assuming in eating the fruit, she would NOT surely DIE]  --

So under all these SELF oriented and DECEITFUL deductions of her OWN HEART, she indeed ate of the tree which contained this mysterious "knowledge" which she did not possess --->

1 John 2:16 --- These 3 principles are they which CHRIST overcame... for they are the comprising of "the WORLD", and are NOT "of the Father"...

This process is the SAME working process of SIN has occured in everyone, ever since...  :dontknow:  There is no "personage" that appears to a man, when a beautiful woman walks before him, that "whispers unto him" -- "hey, check out that chick" -- this is a manifestation of the inherent DECEIT which prevails in the HEART of men (and women)... which is NATURALLY FIRST -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- and is unconverted, unrevealed, uninspired, and completely WITHIN THE FLESH...  :sigh:

Man has been ceaselessly obsessed since the very beginning of time, and will be consumed of that obsession until the very end... which is the "gaining of knowledge" he/she does not yet have...  :dontknow:

It was NOT via the promptings of a mythical IMMENSELY POWERFUL talking "snake"... which has NEVER BEEN SEEN AGAIN!!!  

Christ saw the devil in the wilderness, the idea of throw youself over the hill, doesn't sound like a temptation to suicide, but rather about, trying to prove to Satan that, he is the son of God and that the father does indeed love him. If YE be the son of God turn these stones to bread, again satan trying to get Christ to prove to the devil that he really is the son of God by doing works, not for the fathers glory but doing works for the devil's sake.

I give you all of these kingdoms. Seems a small kingdom, either Satan is talking about a power in Israel which he claimed he was god of, or that he in spirit planted himself in some spiritual place where all the world could be seen, maybe Satans kingdom here is mystery babylon, in that case it would only require Israel, but it seems more likely that all the kingdoms are indeed the whole world.

Rather it was Eve's own thoughts, that were indeed, NOT found to be IN THE CAPTIVITY of CHRIST/Command of the WORD -- 2 Cor 10:5 -- which "captivity" in turn, is IN SUBMISSION to YHVH at all times -- John 8:29

JESUS did not ever succumb to His own "will", for He always DID the will of YHVH -- Matt 4:4

And when the promptings of His own "will"/flesh --- tempted Him to seek otherwise, ...He wisely remained submitted unto the WILL of YHVH unto death... dispensing the proposal of His own "will" (which indeed was the "tempter") -- and had which prompted Him to ask that the cup might pass -- Luke 22:42 -- the cup did NOT pass... so the "will" of CHRIST which he made known, was not manifest... rather the WILL of YHVH indeed was manifest...

...willieH  :cloud9:

The temptation to do self is a constantly present thing, but in the wilderness experience the devil left Christ for a while.

The temptation of the flesh is to kill/harm someone who annoys you, but the temptation of the devil is to kill that same person, even when they have stopped doing that "annoying" thing and are a thousand miles away.

The temptation of the flesh is to eat that delicious cream pie, that smells good in the bakery, the temptation of the demons is to go and buy the whole bakery and eat the whole lot, no one else included.

The temptation of the flesh is to hit someone in revenge, the temptation of the demons is to torture that person.

Quote from: Molly on July 15, 2010, 10:43:05 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on July 15, 2010, 08:47:08 PM
:cloud9: I'm not following you, Molly.... :dontknow:

Long story short:  we are spiritually in a different age from the world?

That's why he says, they will hate you, they will persecute you--for my sake.

:cloud9: Yes....we are entering into His rest fully......our spirit/Joshua went "ahead", it's the day of the Lord which is SPIRIT, and there is no time in the Spirit, it's always "now".

He is the anchor of our SOUL, He already went ahead into that which is beyond the veil. That means the soul has to follow, one way or another, now or later. Blessings...

5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.

--Eph 3



Here we have something that is revealed to the apostles and prophets that has been kept hidden from men of other ages--including this one.



6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

--Eph 3



This mystery is being revealed to the Gentiles now for a purpose.



8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

--Eph 3



It is the church that will make God's purpose known to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places.  This is a very deep concept.  Something very profound is going on here.  We are being used by God to reveal his mysteries to those mentioned in Eph 6--

.. the rulers,  the authorities,  the cosmic powers over this present darkness,  the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. [Eph 6]



..that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

--Eph 3



"fulness"

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.



Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

28 And Peter said, 'Lo, we left all, and did follow thee;' 29 and he said to them, 'Verily I say to you, that there is not one who left house, or parents, or brothers, or wife, or children, for the sake of the reign of God, 30 who may not receive back manifold more in this time, and in the coming age, life age-during.'

--Luke 18



John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.




John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.



[he has] "crossed over" [from death to life]

G3327
μεταβαίνω
metabainō
met-ab-ah'ee-no
From G3326 and the base of G939; to change place: - depart, go, pass, remove.




So we are living in a different place/ age.



Psalm 15
1Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?

2He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.



Psa 87

5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

1 Corinthians 4

1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.

    2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.

    3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

    4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

    5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

    6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

    7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

    8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have become kings— and that without us! How I wish that you really had become kings so that we might be kings with you!

    9 For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.

    10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honoured, we are dishonoured!

    11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless.

    12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;

    13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

    14 I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children.

    15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

    16 Therefore I urge you to imitate me.

    17 For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

    18 Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you.

    19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have.

    20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.

Quote from: willieH on July 13, 2010, 10:22:46 PM

Quote from: thinktank on July 13, 2010, 07:59:36 PM
satan likes it when we don't recognize that he exists, you cannot fight someone that you don't see, Christ gave us power over this being for a reason, to go and preach the gospel and casting out demons being just one of the works commanded to do in Jesus name.

• (1)  If you would, please prove "satan" to be a "he"?
• (2)  If you would, please explain why Eve could see this "serpent" and talk to "him" and WE cannot?
• (3)  If you would, please note "DEMONS" in the Scriptures
• (4)  Where is found, the "command" to "cast out demons"?

There is not even ONE Scripture which notes "satan" as a ..."being"... that I have found, could you also QUOTE even ONE for me?

When CHRIST is living in the LIFE... it is not some mythical "being" that has been "overcome"... rather it is our own "SELF" oriented WILL that "steps down" -- Gal 2:20 -- which "self will" JESUS did not ever give place to... as He always did the WILL of the Father -- John 5:19,30

So when we follow Him by submitting to the WORD, then we are no longer employing our own "will", we are employing the WILL and COMMAND of YHVH within our actions and words, as did JESUS...

No mythical being called "satan" has been dispensed... rather, it is our WILL  which is that which is dispensed, for it is the "WILL" of man that is ADVERSE to the COMMAND of the WORD, of YHVH!

It is the CARNAL "will" within the heart of man which is "DECEITFUL above ALL THINGS, and desparately WICKED" -- Jer 17:9 -- and which operates in the flesh, succumbing to the desires of the flesh -- Rom 8:14-18 -- that is indeed that which is brought into submission by the WORD/CHRIST, not some imagined fairy tale of a "red guy" with a "pitchfork" which has charge of a mythical "kingdom" called "hell"... :mnah:

Religious theologies have taken the sin in the Garden, and have erected the "devil made me do it" / "pass the buck" --- excuses for CARNAL decisions made from "promptings" of the FLESH via the "WILL" of SELF, which TRANSGRESSES that which has been COMMANDED by the SPIRIT of YHVH -- Gen 2:17

One can observe Eve's experience, and see that ALL the temptations she succumbed to were fallen to the curious promptings of her own flesh -- Gen 2:6 --

(1) lust of the eye = [the fruit was pleasant to the EYES] 
(2) lust of the flesh = [the fruit was good for FOOD]
(3) Accompanied by the youthful/childish and DOUBTFILLED notion that death would not overcome her "life" -- pride of life = [assuming in eating the fruit, she would NOT surely DIE]  --

So under all these SELF oriented and DECEITFUL deductions of her OWN HEART, she indeed ate of the tree which contained this mysterious "knowledge" which she did not possess --->

1 John 2:16 --- These 3 principles are they which CHRIST overcame... for they are the comprising of "the WORLD", and are NOT "of the Father"...

This process is the SAME working process of SIN has occured in everyone, ever since...  :dontknow:  There is no "personage" that appears to a man, when a beautiful woman walks before him, that "whispers unto him" -- "hey, check out that chick" -- this is a manifestation of the inherent DECEIT which prevails in the HEART of men (and women)... which is NATURALLY FIRST -- 1 Cor 15:46 -- and is unconverted, unrevealed, uninspired, and completely WITHIN THE FLESH...  :sigh:

Man has been ceaselessly obsessed since the very beginning of time, and will be consumed of that obsession until the very end... which is the "gaining of knowledge" he/she does not yet have...  :dontknow:

It was NOT via the promptings of a mythical IMMENSELY POWERFUL talking "snake"... which has NEVER BEEN SEEN AGAIN!!!   

Rather it was Eve's own thoughts, that were indeed, NOT found to be IN THE CAPTIVITY of CHRIST/Command of the WORD -- 2 Cor 10:5 -- which "captivity" in turn, is IN SUBMISSION to YHVH at all times -- John 8:29

JESUS did not ever succumb to His own "will", for He always DID the will of YHVH -- Matt 4:4

And when the promptings of His own "will"/flesh --- tempted Him to seek otherwise, ...He wisely remained submitted unto the WILL of YHVH unto death... dispensing the proposal of His own "will" (which indeed was the "tempter") -- and had which prompted Him to ask that the cup might pass -- Luke 22:42 -- the cup did NOT pass... so the "will" of CHRIST which he made known, was not manifest... rather the WILL of YHVH indeed was manifest...

...willieH  :cloud9:

:thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on July 14, 2010, 10:05:32 PM
willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AM
Satan is no part of Jesus even in his human state.

I think it is your observation/belief, of what "satan" IS... that forms the essence of this statement... and it avoids the fact that ADVERSITY did in fact approach CHRIST, and DID tempt Him (AS -- IT does us), while He lived within the FLESH... as has IT appeared to, and in ALL men, ...amongst which He is numbered.

He was TEMPTED ...as are we -- Heb 4:15 -- I, personally, have never ONCE, had any "being" or "talking snake" ...called "satan" ever approach me, and attempt to ensnare me in sin. :mnah:

As do many -- even most, ...you [presently] believe "satan" to be a "personage or being"... which is NOT what "satan" IS...

"satan" is simply the Hebrew word which describes, that which is ADVERSARY or ADVERSE to holiness, and to the COMMAND of YHVH...  It is a principality/power that must be overcome within us... not a victory over an external, and IMMENSELY POWERFUL, OMNIPRESENT, "fallen angel"... which is invisible and inaudible to us... :mnah:

The Apostle Paul notes his own personal battle to be with his FLESH, not with a "being" called "satan" -- Rom 8 -- "satan" is not even mentioned in this entire personal confessional of Paul... rather, the FLESH is that which the SPIRIT (within us) does battle, not some theologically/religiously invented external "being"...

That JESUS expressed the desire that the "cup pass" and then in conjunction, insisted upon the WILL of YHVH to be done (and in manifestation,  the "cup" did not "pass") --- displays that the desire of JESUS that the "cup pass" -- which DID NOT take place, was indeed ADVERSE to the actual manifestation of the WILL of YHVH... which DID take place.

That does not mean that JESUS purposed conscious adversity to YHVH... it means that the flesh in which He resided, He DID NOT KNOW that the possibility was or was not available for the "cup to pass"... and therefore asked it to be considered, yet firmly stated that if this "possibility" was not in line with the WILL of YHVH, that it be dispensed of.

Though CHRIST did not purpose adversity... does not remove the fact that the request He made WAS ADVERSE to the WILL of YHVH, and was dispensed of accordingly... also, per His request...

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMJesus tells us that satan has no part of him.

How can satan cast out satan?

John 14:30 (King James Version)

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

"satan" cannot cast out "satan", for "satan" is not sentient.  Man, via submission to the WORD and WILL of God, casts out "satan"...

ADVERSITY did not appear in the life and work of CHRIST, however... It did approach Him and His mind... as His flesh, in which is found the proposing of the adversity of SIN, also ...proposed IT [adversity] to Him...

As CHRIST overcame the prompting desires of His flesh... He displayed that though He was IN sinful flesh, IT had no power over Him, neither would IT have "part" in His doings.

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMIn Mat 4:10 Jesus tells satan to "Go away."    Is he telling a part of himself to leave?

Let me say this... I had surgery... and due to deep distress within it while in recovery, I vocally instructed the PAIN to "go away"... shall indeed my "pain", be considered a "being", on the basis that I instructed IT to "go away"?   

Also, CHRIST specifically ADDRESSED Peter as "satan"... if we are observing within your perspective, then CHRIST was speaking the VERY SAME STATEMENT as He did in -- Matt 4:10 -- to His CHOSEN Apostle upon which He also notes He would "build His church"! -- Mark 8:33 

Let's face it Molly... Though you are welcome to believe what you like, ...Peter was not and IS NOT "satan", ...rather, that which CHRIST in both these instances was addressing, was that ADVERSE information and suggestion, depart from Him.

JESUS is speaking in terms of information made available to Him... In Matt 4:10 -- CHRIST is directing the THOUGHT of adversity to "go away"... He is not saying that adversity cannot approach Him... (which it did)... and give Him opportunity to succumb to it...

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMNo.  Satan is real, he has a kingdom here on earth, and only the light of Christ casts him out.

As I said, in my opening comment to you... this stated perception is the foundation for what you believe concerning WHAT "satan" ...is... and is that which is subject to question.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on July 14, 2010, 08:23:13 AMJohn 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

The "ruler" of this world is the ADVERSITY present in man, which transgresses the COMMAND of God... MEN rule this world, not an imaginary, invisible, inaudible, omnipresent evil "being", which men in their demented state have invented to blame, for their own obstinate and self imposed, indescretions... which have produced the myriad sorrows that we find documented in history, and which are availing themselves in the present, and which are also, unfortunately...  :sigh: ...yet to come... :pitiful:

JESUS dispensed of ADVERSITY concerning the ultimate destiny of MAN, within the manifestation of OBEDIENCE to the COMMAND and WILL of YHVH, within His life, thereby "casting it out"... and thereby positioning Himself as the past, present and future, JUDGE of ADVERSITY, for He did not partake in IT...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Again  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

--2 Cor 6



"Belial"

G955
Βελίαλ
Belial
bel-ee'-al
Of Hebrew origin [H1100]; worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan: - Belial.

Deuteronomy 7:26, "Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing."


Revelations 18:2, "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

The city falls and becomes polluted with demons, unclean spirits. I think falls here means fallen from grace and the city becomes a whoreish city.

That which exalts itself will be lowered and that lowered shall
be raised higher, as the field falls gently to the river of life.

"The tower falls, under the weight of corruption."

peacemaker

Willie, once again, I find myself totally blessed by your words.  You not only have great vision of kingdom matters, but you also have the gift of explaining them to others with great clarity and accuracy.  I found it all quite humbling as I read it.

Awesome post.

You got good points about Satan being our carnal nature.  But I do believe that there is an actual being as Satan, and there are fallen angels.  However I do believe the churches give Satan too much power that he has become a belief as repulsive as hell.  In todays church system, people actually believe Satan has the ability to steal ones soul and have them dragged into hell.  But yes, thats a lie.  However I wouldnt go as far as to underestimate the Demons.  Ive had some nasty trouble before with them, and they are pretty evil. 

Quote from: Universalist Catholic on October 16, 2010, 07:46:52 AM
You got good points about Satan being our carnal nature.  But I do believe that there is an actual being as Satan, and there are fallen angels.  However I do believe the churches give Satan too much power that he has become a belief as repulsive as hell.  In todays church system, people actually believe Satan has the ability to steal ones soul and have them dragged into hell.  But yes, thats a lie.  However I wouldnt go as far as to underestimate the Demons.  Ive had some nasty trouble before with them, and they are pretty evil.

There is no indication that there was ever a being called Satan, working through the minds of men. Remember Jesus said,
"You would have no power at all against me, except it were given you from above."

And consider this: "The Scribes and Pharisees tried hard that they might find an accusation against Jesus."
Pilate even questioned them, "What accusation do you bring against this man?"

Satan or a devil are merely principles that result in active resistance or contentiousness through an unrighteous disposition of false accusations and opposition.

peacemaker

Peacemaker; The Book of Job?

Job 1:6-9 in Original Hebrew, Literal Translation, Lefeinian Rendering, and King James Version, respectively.

U'iei e'ium u'ibau bni e'aleim l'ethitzb ol-IEUE u'ibua gm e'shtn b'thuk'm :

And'he-was the'day and they-are-coming sons-of the'Elohim to'to-station-themselves-of on Yahweh and'he-is-coming moreover the'adversary in'midst-of-them

And there was a day when the sons of Elohim stationed themselves before Yahweh and Satan came also in the midst of them.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

---

u'iamr IEUE al-e'shtn m'ain thba u'ion e'shtn ath-IEUE u'iamr m'shut b'artz u'm'ethelk b'e :

And'he-is-saying Yahweh to the'adversary from'where you-are-coming?  and'he-is-answering the-adversary >> Yahweh and'he-is-saying from'to-go-to-and-fro-of in'the'earth and'from'to-walk-of in'her.

And Yahweh said to Satan, from where came you?  And Satan answered Yahweh saying, From going to and fro in the Earth, and walking in it.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

---

U'iamr IEUE al-e'shtn e'shmth lb'k ol-obdi aiub ki ain km'eu b'artz aish thm u'ishr ira aleim u'sr m'ro :

And'he-is-saying Yahweh to the'adversary you-placed heart-of-you on servant-of-me Job? that there-is-no like'him in'the'earth man flawless and'upright fearing-of Elohim and'withdrawing from'evil.

And Yahweh said to Satan, have you put your thought on my servant Job?  That there is none like him in the Earth, a flawless and upright man, fearing God and withdrawing from evil?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

---

U'ion e'shtn ath-IEUE u'iamr e'chnm ira aiub aleim :

And'he-is-answering the'adversary >> Yahweh and'he-is-saying ?'gratuitously he-fears Job Elohim

And Satan answered Yahweh saying, does Job gratuitously fear Elohim?

Note: Gratuitous - given without expecting to recieve in return.

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

___ ___ ___

Ieue = Yahweh, That I AM

Shtn = Shatan = Satan, The Adversary

Is Satan but a principle?  Is Yahweh then but a principle?  No.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 09:27:10 AM
The Book of Job?

The knowledge of men run to and fro throughout the whole earth, and the eyes of the SPIRIT run to and fro throughout the whole earth (2 Chronicles 16:9) beholding the evil and the good (Proverbs 15:3), as well.

Job 1:6-8 (King James Version)

Now, there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, from going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered the servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth; a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

This story did not take place in another realm but was confined to the limitations of men on earth as opposed to heaven. Men have written their versions of stories predicated on what they believe, altering and giving new meaning to words, as the voice of the sea casts its spell; holding the souls of men in its net. The Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role, and an accuser (devil) is known for his unrighteous disposition. You will meet many adversities in this life. Not everything is as it appears, you may want to consider a court case in which there is; a victim (children), an adversary (not "the" adversary) or accuser (in opposition to the truth), a defendant (Job), a Magistrate (judge), and a King, as "the" totality of any experience must be real, not predicated on false beliefs.

Now, there was a day when the sons of the King came to present themselves before the Magistrate, and the accuser also was among them. And the Judge said to the accuser, "From where to you come?" The adversary of Job said, "From walking to and fro, back and forth, throughout the world." And the Magistrate said to the accuser, "Have you considered this servant, that there is none like him in all the earth; a perfect and upright man, one that gives reverence to the King, and abstains from evil?"

"Truth just might be something, not before realized."

It would seem to me, that plainly read God is talking to a person who talks back.  Not a metaphor.

It is very silly to build up theologies that say our enemy is just a philosophical train of thought, or ideas, represented by a symbolic person that God addresses at various times.  It is even sillier to do said building up - while at the same time saying that All in All, and Saviour of All Men, are to be plain read as being literally all.  If Satan is a philosophical idea, and not a person despite plain read scripture, then why should All not be a philosophical idea, a metaphor for "all, but not all, just some from every kind" that so many ET'ers try to say in the face of plain read scripture?

You have to be careful to be in balance, and not go from one extreme to the other.

Satan isn't this demi-god who can pull the souls of men into Hell, and send forth an army to batter the very gates of Heaven in a mighty struggle between Heaven and Hell that leads the light to faint.  IE: Satan isn't as powerful as Tradition says.

But we best not go to the other side of error, and say that Satan is a metaphor.

Satan is an agent of rebellious expression, a person who was the catalyst for man's crimes, the father of lies, and the prosecutor.  Even in your example the accuser before the magistrate is a person, albeit unnamed. 

Metaphors don't accuse, The Holy Spirit is a person and convicts, so too is our condemner.  Is the Holy Spirit but a metaphor?  No.

Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7  Nevertheless ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.

"And'he-was the'day and they-are-coming sons-of the'Elohim "

Its very plain to me that we are "gods=elohim," I reason that they were human [men mankind] who came "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." 

And where in the Bible do you find this statement "The Holy Spirit is a person " Lefein?
Where does it say the Holy Spirit is a person?

As far as "who" is the adversary [satan].....at this point I really have not come to that knowledge to give myself the anwer.
I do know the adversary is no push over and that it is Chirst in me that is overcoming the enemy, that He is my only weapon,
the mind of Christ.

AFAIK, I've never weighed in on these satan discussions.  But interestingly, I read the following just this morning from John 8;

They responded and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."  Yesu responded to them.  ..."You are doing the works of your father."  ...Yesus said to them, "If God was your Father, you would be loving Me;  ... Why don't you know My speech?  It is because you can't hear My Word. 

You are from your father, the Adversary [Satan], and you are continually wanting to do the desires of your father.  He was a killer of humans from the beginning, and didn't keep standing in the Truth, because Truth isn't in him.  When he speaks a lie, he is speaking from his own things, because he is a liar, and the father of it.

I truly don't believe this is talking about just a thought process, etc.  In this most literal translation to the Koine Greek (The Christian Bible) my thoughts would not be properly translated as 'he'.  I believe satan is a tool, under the authority of God, and can only do as he is allowed - but a being, just the same.

Amen Jabcat.  :thumbsup:

Touching on the subject of The Holy Spirit being a person;

All in KJV

Acts 13:2:
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 8:26:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

John 15:26:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 16:5-7
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:1-17

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He sounds like a person to me, as far as plain-read scripture goes.  Unless God is being decietful and means something totally left field of what he's showing us in the written word.

Jesus is a person, Yahweh is a person...why should The Holy Spirit not be a person?

Then "his" beginning was when?  Scripture an verse.
Col 1:16  for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Col 1:17  and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Gen 4:8  And Cain told Abel his brother. And it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Where did Cain go after Nod and after Cain concieved Enoch?

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 09:01:31 PM
Touching on the subject of The Holy Spirit being a person;

All in KJV

Acts 13:2:
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 8:26:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

John 15:26:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 16:5-7
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:1-17

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He sounds like a person to me, as far as plain-read scripture goes.  Unless God is being decietful and means something totally left field of what he's showing us in the written word.

Jesus is a person, Yahweh is a person...why should The Holy Spirit not be a person?

Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts. Then your answer to the "he" is mankind.

I'm not going to get into a nit-picking debate over pronoun'ian semantics.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 09:01:31 PM
Jesus is a person, Yahweh is a person...why should The Holy Spirit not be a person?

It is written, "Be ye holy, for I AM HOLY."
And we know there, is only one SPIRIT and Father of ALL.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 07:24:15 PM
You have to be careful to be in balance, and not go from one extreme to the other.

The Hebrew term for Satan, Lefein, describes an adversarial role and an accuser is known for his unrighteous disposition; "You will meet many adversities in this life." And the Scriptures clearly reveal that the living Spirit confronts false images, which incorrectly come from the ideologies of men. Spiritually speaking, it never hurts to see the brighter side of things as a cloudy day is no match for a sunny disposition. Destroying the wickedness or combination of parts under which a thing exists, makes restoration possible. Because one is not consciously aware of something, does not mean it is excluded. Perhaps, the Psychology of Satan and Hell within Religion, including the fears of Eternal punishment, have clouded the soul. But within every clouded soul there is a silver lining.

Thought provoking, is it not?

I perceive that the SPIRIT is not a respecter of persons, thus, that which you feed becomes the source of your strength.

 :cloud9: I love to read your posts PC.....they cause me s-t-r-e-t-c-h....... :winkgrin:

We are priests, and kings in the family of God...not Jedi, or Sith...

HUH?

The Holy Spirit isn't "The Force".  If he isn't a person (a sentient exister), what is he then but a numinous force?

QuoteI perceive that the SPIRIT is not a respecter of persons, thus, that which you feed becomes the source of your strength.

This presents the idea, that he is a numinous (non-sentient) force to feed off of...or an option amongst forces to feed from.

If however, the Holy Spirit is sentient, as the scriptures either blatantly show, or by some manner imply; he is a person. 

Sentience is one of the great factors that make something have "personhood".  Rocks aren't sentient, they aren't people; I am sentient, I am a person.

The Holy Spirit is the ENERGY of Jehovah His very ESSENCE.

Is he sentient? Or not?

The Holy Spirit in masculine, not a "he."  Sentient, no.

Rocks don't talk.  The Holy Spirit has, and does.

Rocks?

Rocks are my contrasting object of reference.  Rocks aren't sentient.  Rocks aren't people.

Non-sentience vs. Sentience.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 10:56:24 PM
Rocks don't talk.  The Holy Spirit has, and does.

Luk 19:40  and he answering said to them, `I say to you, that, if these shall be silent, the stones will cry out!'

You're missing the point of my use of rocks in this comparison...

"This...soda-can...is not sentient, it does not talk.  The Holy Spirit has, and does."

Lefein, because I am part Native American, not Luke Skywalker, here is a story which you have probably already heard. However, think about it?

The Wolf You Feed

An elder Native American was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, "A fight is going on inside me, it is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves; One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith."

He continued: "This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too."

The Grandchildren thought about it for a minute and then one child asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied:  "The one you feed."


Come to think of it, if you give Skywalker a mustache, beard, and a few wrinkles; the resemblance is quite remarkable?
http://www.toplessrobot.com/Episode_4_Luke_Skywalker_1.jpg

There is also a real wolf somewhere in the woods outside the encampment.  That is the point I am trying to make.

Who is satan?  Was not that the original post?

Yes it was.  Just as The Holy Spirit is a sentient being, so too is The Adversary whom The Holy Spirit is against.

The scriptures show conversation, communication, sentience in these two nouns; The Holy Spirit, and The Adversary - we (I believe) must therefore conclude with childlike acceptance of plain-read inference that they both are Persons, being sentient. 

Satan is a person, first and foremost.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 11:18:55 PM
There is also a real wolf somewhere in the woods outside the encampment. 

"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed for seven days."

I see your human argument, but is there a scripture and verse to show that either the Holy Spirit of the Adversary is a person?

Know that this is a simple thought, but have you ever talked to yourself in a conversation?

QuoteI see your human argument, but is there a scripture and verse to show that either the Holy Spirit of the Adversary is a person?

The Book of Job, and various portions of the New Testament...?

John 16.7: "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

I've typed out several verses pertaining to the personhood of both in previous posts.

QuoteKnow that this is a simple thought, but have you ever talked to yourself in a conversation?

I have, but I also talk to my friends.

"I've typed out several verses pertaining to the personhood of both in previous posts"

Where are they? Could you lead me in the right direction?
I do know this, and it puzzles my knowledge as well, the adversary can not be the carnal mind.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 09:27:10 AM
Peacemaker; The Book of Job?

Job 1:6-9 in Original Hebrew, Literal Translation, Lefeinian Rendering, and King James Version, respectively.

U'iei e'ium u'ibau bni e'aleim l'ethitzb ol-IEUE u'ibua gm e'shtn b'thuk'm :

And'he-was the'day and they-are-coming sons-of the'Elohim to'to-station-themselves-of on Yahweh and'he-is-coming moreover the'adversary in'midst-of-them

And there was a day when the sons of Elohim stationed themselves before Yahweh and Satan came also in the midst of them.

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

---

u'iamr IEUE al-e'shtn m'ain thba u'ion e'shtn ath-IEUE u'iamr m'shut b'artz u'm'ethelk b'e :

And'he-is-saying Yahweh to the'adversary from'where you-are-coming?  and'he-is-answering the-adversary >> Yahweh and'he-is-saying from'to-go-to-and-fro-of in'the'earth and'from'to-walk-of in'her.

And Yahweh said to Satan, from where came you?  And Satan answered Yahweh saying, From going to and fro in the Earth, and walking in it.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

---

U'iamr IEUE al-e'shtn e'shmth lb'k ol-obdi aiub ki ain km'eu b'artz aish thm u'ishr ira aleim u'sr m'ro :

And'he-is-saying Yahweh to the'adversary you-placed heart-of-you on servant-of-me Job? that there-is-no like'him in'the'earth man flawless and'upright fearing-of Elohim and'withdrawing from'evil.

And Yahweh said to Satan, have you put your thought on my servant Job?  That there is none like him in the Earth, a flawless and upright man, fearing God and withdrawing from evil?

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

---

U'ion e'shtn ath-IEUE u'iamr e'chnm ira aiub aleim :

And'he-is-answering the'adversary >> Yahweh and'he-is-saying ?'gratuitously he-fears Job Elohim

And Satan answered Yahweh saying, does Job gratuitously fear Elohim?

Note: Gratuitous - given without expecting to recieve in return.

Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

___ ___ ___

Ieue = Yahweh, That I AM

Shtn = Shatan = Satan, The Adversary

Is Satan but a principle?  Is Yahweh then but a principle?  No.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 09:01:31 PM
Touching on the subject of The Holy Spirit being a person;

All in KJV

Acts 13:2:
As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Romans 8:26:
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

John 15:26:
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13:
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 16:5-7
And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8:1-17

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He sounds like a person to me, as far as plain-read scripture goes.  Unless God is being decietful and means something totally left field of what he's showing us in the written word.

Jesus is a person, Yahweh is a person...why should The Holy Spirit not be a person?

Joh 16:7  `But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you;
Joh 16:13  and when He may come--the Spirit of truth--He will guide you to all the truth, for He will not speak from Himself, but as many things as He will hear He will speak, and the coming things He will tell you;

In a similar manner that Jesus spoke what God The Father gave him to speak also? :)

Person= 1) a human being , esp. as distinguished from a thing or lower animal; individual man, woman, or child; now usaually
pluralized as people, which formaly was used only to indicate an indifinte number of people. Websters New world Coll. Dict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person

In the more general sense of person, not specifically of the Human species.

Alas the spliting of the hair. You ve heard that if it walks like a duck.......
"
not specifically of the Human species." Now what do you mean by that, not specifically of the HUMAN species?

Person= 1) a human being , esp. as distinguished from a thing or lower animal; individual man, woman, or child; now usaually
pluralized as people, which formaly was used only to indicate an indifinte number of people. Websters New world Coll. Dict.

I mean specifically, that I am not going to limit Personhood to humanity specifically.  I don't know if The Holy Spirit is human.  But if he is not, that doesn't take away from his personhood, as sentient.

Personhood!!!! Just what is "personhood?" Are you now making up words to bring forth your "ideas," of the adversary? We are speakinfg of the adversary correct? You cant just "say" something is a "person" just because you want someTHING to be of a personal feeling to you.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/personhood

per·son·hood   /ˈpɜrsənˌhʊd/  Show Spelled
[pur-suhn-hood]  Show IPA

–noun
1. the state or fact of being a person. 2. the state or fact of being an individual or having human characteristics and feelings: a harsh prison system that deprives prisoners of their personhood.
personhood  (ˈp£ːsənˌhʊd) 

— n   
chiefly  ( US ) the condition of being a person who is an individual with inalienable rights, esp under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United States

Got it.

Quote from: Lefein on October 16, 2010, 11:28:44 PM
Yes it was.  Just as The Holy Spirit is a sentient being, so too is The Adversary whom The Holy Spirit is against.

You need to understand the Hebraic  concept of parallel teachings. I'll let Jesus explain...

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."  

Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.  

Now take some time and search the scriptures for the "Finger of God"  in both the old and new testament, then the compare the parallel teachings like the verses above.  I could show you the connection but you need to learn for your self.

Paul  

The Parakletos, the Comforter

When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

--John 16

Parakletos, another counselor

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

--John 14



...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
--Isa 9:6

 Adversity of the soul and Spirit:

"Pride and hunger will ever be at variance, until both are satisfied."

The Paraklete, the Protector

"the Greek term paraclete, though often translated "comforter" or "encourager," comes from classical Greek literature in which two Greek soldiers were paired together.

"When the fighting got intense and even became hand-to-hand combat, one's paraclete backed up to your back and you fought to the front and to the side, knowing that someone was behind you protecting that which you could not protect yourself.."




The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

--John 14

May the spirit be with you allways even until the end of the world.

Also christian brothers ,sisters be carefull of what you speak concerning the spirit.

The spirit is heavenly pearls, precious, sacred and given to us as a gift from the father and the son. I believe there is more to this than meets the eye and I believe I have had revelation of mysteries, not quite ready to share yet.

I must remember this myself, we christians treat the spirit badly, there's a whole lot of grieving going on.  :sigh:

I must move on, I came into this post with the understanding of "Who is Satan," I must have lost my way. I aplogize for any inconvience I may have caused

Quote from: Dallas on April 19, 2010, 04:43:14 AM

QuoteI'm interested in what studies and conclusions others have made.  Who was Satan, where was he and where is he now?  I can only think of one New Testament siting/depiction. From what I can tell, only Jesus has seen him and conversed in length.  For some reason there are many sermons today about this evil being and yet very little experiences to draw from.

That's because Satan is a very minor character in the bible. He is very insignificant, just a bit part.

People need to control people, and fear is the biggest control mechanism. When the church got thir hands onto this devil character they played him up to control the masses, to fear people into tithes...now the movement seems to be moving more into blaming him for everything wrong to eleviate their own responsibility. The church has also expanded this saying unless you do this or that YOU have become one of his followers.

Control, through fear...my oh my, religion is good for the people.

:thumbsup:

Quote from: Nathan on April 20, 2010, 09:46:15 PM
And here in this thread lies the perfect example of what sound does.  Everyone is singing the song of spiritual sound.  Each may sing a different note, but each note harmonizes with the others and the song of what's being said rings true.  I relate to every one of your thoughts and posts. 

Satan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".  Which is what one of the previous posts here eluded to.  When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness . . .the king of darkness, as tradition percieves satan to be . . .the king of darkness has NOTHING that would ever tempt Jesus.  Yet Scripture says he indeed was tempted.

However, when we see Jesus, as God who manifests fully in flesh, we then can understand that even in the fleshly manifestation of Jesus was a carnal thinking mind that needed to be aligned before his ministry could affect the world as originally intended.  Jesus needed to put his flesh into submission and that's all that was happening in the wilderness. 

From the serpent in the garden of Genesis to the dragon in Revelation this carnal force has been in existance in every mind of man.  It's the most subtle "beast" in all the field.  This was not a depiction of natural snakes, but it "is" a principle of how carnality works in our lives.  Satan is the carnal force subtly at work in my mind.  Which means it works just under my awareness.  My mind is dependant on knowledge, carnality is the governing force that influences my natural mind, thus making it an adversary to the nature of God. 


Satan is what my carnal mind is . . .it's an adversary.  The "devil" is what my mind "does".  The authors of Scripture never used "devil" either.  What they did use was "traducer" which is our term for "accuser".  My carnal mind accuses me night and day of my shortcomings and my failures.  Quoting Scriptures may win the battle, but the war continues on.  It's not until we exercise the authority in us and command the alignment to manifest that we finally shut the enemy down all together.  That's what Jesus did with Peter when he called him satan and that's what Jesus did with his own mind in the wilderness.  "Get thee behind me" is a decree of alignment.

satan can not be the carnal mind.

Quote from: chuckt on April 20, 2010, 10:00:14 PM
good stuff...

its almost like we all have a cain and able inside us  :mshock:

I, believe that you have come very close to a manifestation.

Quote from: Dallas on April 21, 2010, 04:45:17 AM

QuoteSatan is not what Jesus called Peter.  The translators chose that word, the original word Jesus said to Peter was "adversary".

The reason they did chose that word is because in the origonal language Satan means adversary. It was what Jesus called Him, Adversary became a proper name for the serpent... there were those like Peter who at that moment was acting adversarial towards the plan of God, and there is also THE Adversary.

God is even called satan, for in the Aramaic the word adversary is SATAN...and in Chronicles I think it is God is adversarial towards Israel, therefor in the origonal aramaic it does say that God was satan towards Israel.

God is even called satan, for in the Aramaic the word adversary is SATAN...and in Chronicles I think it is God is adversarial towards Israel, therefor in the origonal aramaic it does say that God was satan towards Israel.
Very true

Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 22, 2010, 09:44:35 PM

Satan = adversary (adverse) = opposite of (what?)
Truth  = Word of God = Jesus Christ
                   — so —
            Satan is the The Lie

How so? How is satan The Lie?

Satan is the prince of this age.


John 14:30
I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

Quote from: Nathan on April 23, 2010, 08:02:45 PM
Who taught us that principalities and powers is refering to a demonic realm or world?  What it that has a different intent all together?

Titus 3:1
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


If principalities and powers are demonic, then why on earth would Paul instruct Titus to remind people to be "subject" to them?  In other words, to be in subjection to them?  In the opening of chapter two, where this line of thought stems from, Paul exhorts Titus to preach this as "sound doctrine." 

I believe the church is missing it on this.

I believe you are right on

Quote from: Cardinal on April 23, 2010, 09:05:01 PM
:cloud9: A joker, eh?  :grin: You know what I mean.......air = breath = spirit.

I would find question and doubt in that equation, I bellieve there is a great difference.

Quote from: Nathan on April 23, 2010, 09:59:06 PM
Man . . .I just spent 20 minutes or so posting to this again but something must have happened as it's obviously not showing up. 

So Card, say you're right . . . which I personally tend to agree with as well.  But say it's both.  Then the next question I would as would be "which one do I need to be aware of the most?"  Do I identify with demonic activity and casting out demons everywhere I go? 

Or, do I identify  the powers of carnal men who've put themselves in high places . . .and not just physical men, but the carnality that influenced them to do it?  What influenced them can just as easily influence me.  What were most of the warnings to the church about?  Demons infiltraiting?  Or false doctrines . . .rudimental mindsets . . . religious enforcements?  Or worshiping satan?

Of the two, which are the most subtle of all the beasts in the field?  Which have the greatest potential in deceiving me?  Granted a part of Jesus ministry did establish the fact that his name had the power above all other forces above, on, and below the earth.  But that was not his predominant message, to cast out demons.  It was simply a "sign" revealing where the real authority was at.  He didn't teach about the principle of demons, but he did preach about the kingdom of heaven.  He didn't preach "against" demons, but he did preach against the religious mindsets.

2 Corinthians 10
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)  5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Not about demonic warfare, but it does seem to be dealing with the carnal mind.  Pulling down of strongholds and throwing down imaginations.  A stronghold is simply a principle that one chooses to be immovable on.  Bringing "thoughts" into captivity . . .it's not about demons, it's about religiousness.

Colossians 2
2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;  3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Truth comes by way of revelation from the Father, not through proof of a written passage.  Because it's "hid" not from us, but "for" us.  It is Christ who removes the veil of understanding.  Sorry, I just read that in looking for something else.

A little further down, Paul actually connects prinipality and power with the rudiments, which actually means first principles.  It's not about demons, it's about religion overshadowing truth.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.  9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

"Of the two, which are the most subtle of all the beasts in the field?" the answer to that is man.

I still want to know who God was talking to in Job.  I still want to know who was given permission to steal from, and assault Job.

Job 1:7  And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary.
Job 1:12  And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

There you go.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 03:21:24 AM
Job 1:7  And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary.
Job 1:12  And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Lo, all that he hath is in thy hand, only unto him put not forth thy hand.' And the Adversary goeth out from the presence of Jehovah.

There you go.

whats an adversary?

Satan was [equal or] higher in the celestial hierarchy than the archangel Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

--Jude 1

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 03:31:15 AM
Satan is higher in the Satan is higher in the hierarchy than the archangel Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

--Jude 1

Now please I need some confirmation on "Satan is higher in the hierarchy than the archangel Michael" Just where do you get that the adversary is in a "higher hierarchy than the archangel Michael ?"

Archangel =  a chief angel: primary verb to be first. If you believe or contend that there is or was or will be a higher angel[mesenger] that Jesus, please give me scripture and verse. In fact show me another archangel in the Bible.

Besides, the original post was "Who is satan." I started again from the beginning and before the second sheet you could not tell that we were talking about who is satan.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 03:39:53 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 03:31:15 AM
Satan is higher in the Satan is higher in the hierarchy than the archangel Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

--Jude 1

Now please I need some confirmation on "Satan is higher in the hierarchy than the archangel Michael" Just where do you get that the adversary is in a "higher hierarchy than the archangel Michael ?"

Archangel =  a chief angel: primary verb to be first. If you believe or contend that there is or was or will be a higher angel[mesenger] that Jesus, please give me scripture and verse. In fact show me another archangel in the Bible.

Do you think Jesus is an angel?  Or that Jesus is Michael?

I changed it to equal or higher--because in that verse Michael and Satan are contending over the body of Moses, and Michael says to Satan, the Lord [Jesus] rebuke thee, so clearly Jesus is higher than Satan.  But Michael is not.

Michael = H4310 who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: Know any one else who can hold that place other than Jesus?
Angel= messenger in both OT and OT

So yes I believe Jesus is a messenger and Jesus is Michael  the Archangel.
The adversary has no more height or stature that what Jehovah has or will give him. I believe it said "The Lord rebuke thee."

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:00:53 AM
Michael = H4310 who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: Know any one else who can hold that place other than Jesus?
Angel= messenger in both OT and OT

So yes I believe Jesus is a messenger and Jesus is Michael  the Archangel.
The adversary has no more height or stature that what Jehovah has or will give him. I believe it said "The Lord rebuke thee."

I don't see that, I see Jesus as the word and when he speaks it his angels and the spirit go to work. I don't see Jesus doing mortal combat in heaven, but sends the archangel michael to do his dirty work. Not saying that Jesus can't fight though, he can do anything and  also is willing to get his hands dirty obviously proven.  :happy3:

"mortal combat in heaven"??? What mortal combat are you refering to?
"sends the archangel michael "? Where do I read He sends the archangel Michael anywhere?

And Jesus IS THE WORD, that has not changed.

It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.

I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:00:53 AM
Michael = H4310 who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: Know any one else who can hold that place other than Jesus?
Angel= messenger in both OT and OT

So yes I believe Jesus is a messenger and Jesus is Michael  the Archangel.
The adversary has no more height or stature that what Jehovah has or will give him. I believe it said "The Lord rebuke thee."

OK, that's fine.  You think Michael is talking for himself when he says the Lord rebuke thee?

In other words, I, Michael , as the Lord [Jesus] , rebuke thee?

Then why are Michael and the Lord Jesus mentioned in the same sentence?  Is there a reason why Jesus would change his name back and forth like that?

Let's look at that sentence in another translation to get the meaning that not even Michael dared to accuse Satan.




Jude 1:9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
9 Yet Michael the archangel,  when he was disputing with the Devil  in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:15:01 AM
"mortal combat in heaven"??? What mortal combat are you refering to?
"sends the archangel michael "? Where do I read He sends the archangel Michael anywhere?

And Jesus IS THE WORD, that has not changed.

Keep your hair on micah, I can easily get niffed by asking you the same question as to why Jesus is michael?

The combat is found in the book of Daniel, where the great prince stands up against the prince of persia and fights for 20 something days. Aslo found in Rev 12 where thre is a great war in heaven and michael casts down the dragon.

Jesus said I beheld Satan falleth as lighning.

Which to me means I watched satan fall from heaven, so someone else is doing the fighting. This is the pattern in the earthly world, where kings order troops to fight.

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:21:56 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:00:53 AM
Michael = H4310 who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: Know any one else who can hold that place other than Jesus?
Angel= messenger in both OT and OT

So yes I believe Jesus is a messenger and Jesus is Michael  the Archangel.
The adversary has no more height or stature that what Jehovah has or will give him. I believe it said "The Lord rebuke thee."

OK, that's fine.  You think Michael is talking for himself when he says the Lord rebuke thee?

In other words, I, Michael , as the Lord [Jesus] , rebuke thee?

Then why are Michael and the Lord Jesus mentioned in the same sentence?  Is there a reason why Jesus would change his name back and forth like that?

Let's look at that sentence in another translation to get the meaning that not even Michael dared to accuse Satan.




Jude 1:9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
9 Yet Michael the archangel,  when he was disputing with the Devil  in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the chief–messenger, when, with the adversary, disputing, he was reasoning about the body of Moses, durst not impose on him a defamatory sentence, but said––The Lord rebuke thee!(Rotherham)

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.

I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Then you believe correctly!  Jesus is the Son of God created in the womb of Mary!  
Luke 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news...

Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

:thumbsup:
Paul

OTHER ARCHANGELS



Raphael in Judaism
The angels mentioned in the Torah, the older books of the Hebrew Bible, are without names. Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish of Tiberias (A.D. 230–270), asserted that all the specific names for the angels were brought back by the Jews from Babylon, and modern commentators would tend to agree.

Raphael is named in several Jewish apocryphal books (see below).

Raphael in the Book of Enoch
Raphael bound Azazel under a desert called Dudael according to Enoch 10:5–7:

"And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire."

Of seven archangels in the angelology of post-Exilic Judaism, only Michael, mentioned as archangel (Daniel 12:1)(Jude verse 9) and Gabriel are mentioned by name in the scriptures that came to be accepted as canonical by all Christians. Raphael is mentioned by name in the Book of Tobit, which is accepted as canonical by Catholics and Orthodox. Four others, however, are named in the 2nd century BC Book of Enoch (chapter xxi): Uriel, Raguel, Sariel, and Jarahmeel.

The root of the name Raphael also appears in the modern Hebrew word Rophe meaning doctor of medicine, thus echoing the healing function traditionally attributed to this angel.

Raphael in Christianity
The name of the angel Raphael appears only in the Deuterocanonical Book of Tobit. The Book of Tobit is considered canonical by Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians. Raphael first appears disguised in human form as the travelling companion of the younger Tobias, calling himself "Azarias the son of the great Ananias". During the adventurous course of the journey the archangel's protective influence is shown in many ways including the binding of the demon in the desert of upper Egypt. After the return and the healing of the blindness of the elder Tobit, Azarias makes himself known as "the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord" Tobit 12:15. Compare the unnamed angels in John's Revelation 8:2. Christian churches following Catholic teachings (Roman, Oriental, Orthodox, Anglican, etc) venerate and patronize him as Saint Raphael the Archangel.

--wikipedia.com

Ill stick top the 66  books.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:35:52 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:21:56 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:00:53 AM
Michael = H4310 who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites: Know any one else who can hold that place other than Jesus?
Angel= messenger in both OT and OT

So yes I believe Jesus is a messenger and Jesus is Michael  the Archangel.
The adversary has no more height or stature that what Jehovah has or will give him. I believe it said "The Lord rebuke thee."

OK, that's fine.  You think Michael is talking for himself when he says the Lord rebuke thee?

In other words, I, Michael , as the Lord [Jesus] , rebuke thee?

Then why are Michael and the Lord Jesus mentioned in the same sentence?  Is there a reason why Jesus would change his name back and forth like that?

Let's look at that sentence in another translation to get the meaning that not even Michael dared to accuse Satan.




Jude 1:9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
9 Yet Michael the archangel,  when he was disputing with the Devil  in a debate about Moses' body, did not dare bring an abusive condemnation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"

Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the chief–messenger, when, with the adversary, disputing, he was reasoning about the body of Moses, durst not impose on him a defamatory sentence, but said––The Lord rebuke thee!(Rotherham)

Yes that says the same thing, that the archangel Michael did not dare to defame or accuse Satan.  Now if Michael is Jesus, why would Jesus not dare to defame Satan?

Jesus called Satan the father of lies--that strikes me as pretty defamatory. lol

Quote from: Pierac on October 18, 2010, 04:37:43 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.

I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Then you believe correctly!  Jesus is the Son of God created in the womb of Mary!  
Luke 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news...

Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

:thumbsup:
Paul

How does what you show, that Jesus is not Michael / that Michael is not Jesus. Just who then "who is like God?" if not Jesus / Michael?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:41:12 AM
Ill stick top the 66  books.

well, then you also have to acknowledge the archangel Gabriel at least.

The archangels stand in the presence of God.


Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:48:09 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:41:12 AM
Ill stick top the 66  books.

well, then you also have to acknowledge the archangel Gabriel at least.

The archangels stand in the presence of God.


Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Just where do find that Gabriel was/is and archangel?  How many archangels can you find in your Bible(the 66 books)?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:44:23 AM

Quote from: Pierac on October 18, 2010, 04:37:43 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.

I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Then you believe correctly!  Jesus is the Son of God created in the womb of Mary!  
Luke 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news...

Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

:thumbsup:
Paul

How does what you show, that Jesus is not Michael / that Michael is not Jesus. Just who then "who is like God?" if not Jesus / Michael?

Every name ending in el refers to God.  Israel means who rules like God.  Is Israel Jesus?  Was Jacob Jesus?

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:50:31 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:44:23 AM

Quote from: Pierac on October 18, 2010, 04:37:43 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.

I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Then you believe correctly!  Jesus is the Son of God created in the womb of Mary!  
Luke 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news...

Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

:thumbsup:
Paul

How does what you show, that Jesus is not Michael / that Michael is not Jesus. Just who then "who is like God?" if not Jesus / Michael?

Every name ending in el refers to God.  Israel means who rules like God.  Is Israel Jesus?  Was Jacob Jesus?

Yes I know that about "EL"

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 03:31:15 AM
Satan was [equal or] higher in the celestial hierarchy than the archangel Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

--Jude 1

Here where I lost the post "Who is satan."

Michael is a name used elsewhere in the Bible, for humans too.  They are not Jesus.

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:48:09 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:41:12 AM
Ill stick top the 66  books.

well, then you also have to acknowledge the archangel Gabriel at least.

The archangels stand in the presence of God.


Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Is Gabriel an archangel?

This text calls him an angel.

What does arch mean?  :dontknow:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:52:55 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 03:31:15 AM
Satan was [equal or] higher in the celestial hierarchy than the archangel Michael.


9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

--Jude 1

I is here where I lost the post "Who is satan."

If we can't agree who Jesus is, it's going to be hard to agree who Satan is.  I think we should go back to parallel play lol.

Satan is the god of this age.

"chief-messenger" in the greek.

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 04:56:53 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 04:48:09 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:41:12 AM
Ill stick top the 66  books.

well, then you also have to acknowledge the archangel Gabriel at least.

The archangels stand in the presence of God.


Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Is Gabriel an archangel?

This text calls him an angel.

What does arch mean?  :dontknow:

Is Gabriel an archangel? No.
What does arch mean?  :dontknow: I would suggest "first" or foremost."

Zechariah 3:2   

And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

sounds like Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:16   

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The lord speaks, with the voice of the archangel?

Revelation 4:1   
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


It is God who speaks life into us, so why does thessolonians above talk about needing Michael and also Jesus. For in rev 4:1 a trumpet is heard, but it is only Jesus, not Jesus and michael. So what is michaels role in thesolonians? PErhaps he is an accomplice :dontknow:


Also only one archangel? bit suspicious.

One thought though if michael is Jesus, it does not change him into a mere angel, it simply means that he was regarded as the chief messanger sent into Earth to reveal the father, but maintains his God status, the first and the last.

micah might have something

hmm...Further study

I'd heard it said this way;

Michael is the Prime Minister, Jesus is the King.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:54:53 AM
Michael is a name used elsewhere in the Bible, for humans too.  They are not Jesus.

Yes, the name Michael is used many times (15)..13 in the OT 3 of those times in Daniel; once in Jude and once in Rev.
But those times prior to Daniel I dont believe fall into the discussion unless you want to bring them in.

Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:14:15 AM
Zechariah 3:2   

And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

sounds like Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:16   

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The lord speaks, with the voice of the archangel?

Revelation 4:1   
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


It is God who speaks life into us, so why does thessolonians above talk about needing Michael and also Jesus. For in rev 4:1 a trumpet is heard, but it is only Jesus, not Jesus and michael. So what is michaels role in thesolonians? PErhaps he is an accomplice :dontknow:


Also only one archangel? bit suspicious.

micah might have something

hmm...Further study

"with the voice of the archangel"  Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;
Voice = phone (G5456)  through the idea of disclosure.

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

What does the name Michael mean?
Is Jesus not the greatest messenger of all?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 05:46:23 AM


What does the name Michael mean?
Is Jesus not the greatest messenger of all?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:44:32 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

Are you willing to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 05:46:23 AM


What does the name Michael mean?
Is Jesus not the greatest messenger of all?

What does the name Michael mean? Who is like God.

Is Jesus not the greatest messenger of all? Yes

I think we might come to a better conclusion if we asked some simple questions, and lay out some facts/examples.

Is Michael an angel?  (Of the species, or family that is what ever angels are)

Is Jesus an angel? (Of the species, or family that is what ever angels are)

God can appear as he wishes to, man, angel, fiery pillar, burning bush, dove, still whisper in our hearts (sound), rolling thunder (sound)...etc.

Hence, The Angel of The Lord is God appearing as an angel.  The example here is, that God while appearing in the form of an angel, is not an Angel, in the same manner that God appearing as a burning bush, doesn't make him a plant.  And so I am asking if Jesus, and Michael are Angels. 

If Jesus is not an Angel, and Michael is an Angel, Jesus cannot be Michael (identity wise), if Michael is not an Angel...what is he?  If Jesus is an Angel, well...the only thing I can say to that is "prove it".

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:50:10 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:44:32 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

Are you willing to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Yes. Did you feel I had doubts?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:53:07 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:50:10 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:44:32 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

Are you willing to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Yes. Did you feel I had doubts?

So you think an angel is the Lord?

QuoteIf Jesus is not an Angel, and Michael is an Angel, Jesus cannot be Michael (identity wise), if Michael is not an Angel...what is he?  If Jesus is an Angel, well...the only thing I can say to that is "prove it".

Jesus is given many names, but we are always told what those names and titles are--Emanuel, the Word, Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Son of man,  Son of God.

If Jesus were Michael, we would have been told that, but the Bible specifically makes a differentiation between the Son and the angels.

Unfortunately , without the book of Enoch and the book of Tobit, a lot of information about the angels is lost to us.

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:55:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:53:07 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:50:10 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:44:32 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

Are you willing to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Yes. Did you feel I had doubts?

So you think an angel is the Lord?

Please Molly just what are you trying prove.? Angel= messenger,Archangel= foremost angel, Michael= who is like God.
Jesus= Joshua-Jehovah saved Lord= Jehovah - self exsitent one

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 06:03:14 AM

QuoteIf Jesus is not an Angel, and Michael is an Angel, Jesus cannot be Michael (identity wise), if Michael is not an Angel...what is he?  If Jesus is an Angel, well...the only thing I can say to that is "prove it".

Jesus is given many names, but we are always told what those names and titles are--Emanuel, the Word, Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Son of man,  Son of God.

If Jesus were Michael, we would have been told that, but the Bible specifically makes a differentiation between the Son and the angels.

Unfortunately , without the book of Enoch and the book of Tobit, a lot of information about the angels is lost to us.

I think you need to stay out of them books Molly.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 05:52:34 AM
I think we might come to a better conclusion if we asked some simple questions, and lay out some facts/examples.

Is Michael an angel?  (Of the species, or family that is what ever angels are)

Is Jesus an angel? (Of the species, or family that is what ever angels are)

God can appear as he wishes to, man, angel, fiery pillar, burning bush, dove, still whisper in our hearts (sound), rolling thunder (sound)...etc.

Hence, The Angel of The Lord is God appearing as an angel.  The example here is, that God while appearing in the form of an angel, is not an Angel, in the same manner that God appearing as a burning bush, doesn't make him a plant.  And so I am asking if Jesus, and Michael are Angels. 

If Jesus is not an Angel, and Michael is an Angel, Jesus cannot be Michael (identity wise), if Michael is not an Angel...what is he?  If Jesus is an Angel, well...the only thing I can say to that is "prove it".

Jesus is not of the species described as angels

Hebrews 1:6 
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.


But the term archangel can mean, he is the leader of the angels, hence arch angel. IT doesn't mean he is an angel.

Whoever michael is he has leadership and authority over all of Gods angels in rev 12
Michael and his angels fought.

I think a good bet is go find the hebrew word for michael, and find out if it means anything.
:2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:08:17 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 06:03:14 AM

QuoteIf Jesus is not an Angel, and Michael is an Angel, Jesus cannot be Michael (identity wise), if Michael is not an Angel...what is he?  If Jesus is an Angel, well...the only thing I can say to that is "prove it".

Jesus is given many names, but we are always told what those names and titles are--Emanuel, the Word, Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, Son of man,  Son of God.

If Jesus were Michael, we would have been told that, but the Bible specifically makes a differentiation between the Son and the angels.

Unfortunately , without the book of Enoch and the book of Tobit, a lot of information about the angels is lost to us.

I think you need to stay out of them books Molly.

I'm not in those books.  My own Buble tells me that Gabriel stands in the presence of God.  Gabriel was sent to announce the birth of the Lord Jesus, so that makes him pretty importantant as angels go.  My own Bible tells me that Micahel dared not defame Satan, but the Lord Jesus crushes the head of Satan.   My own Bible says that all the angels of God were commanded to worship the baby Jesus and that would include the archangel Michael.

Here are the angels carrying out that command:

13And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

14Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
--Luke 2



6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
--Heb 1

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:06:47 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:55:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:53:07 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:50:10 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:44:32 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 18, 2010, 05:40:13 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:28:36 AM

Quote from: thinktank on October 18, 2010, 05:20:16 AM
Do you have any other scriptures micah which point or possibly indicate that Jesus is Michael the archangel?

Nope. But the meaning of Michael =is who is like God, seems to be pretty open and that angel means, in both old and new testament to be a messenger, ambassador I would say I need no more. The statement in
Jud 1:9 Whereas, Michael, the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil, (he disputed about the body of Moses,) did not attempt to bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke":

And I might ask the question who is the Lord?
If I read 1Co 15:28  and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Correctly, The Lord is still the Father God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That is true,but "when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, Id say that "all in all" is The Lord.

Are you willing to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord?

Yes. Did you feel I had doubts?

So you think an angel is the Lord?

Please Molly just what are you trying prove.? Angel= messenger,Archangel= foremost angel, Michael= who is like God.
Jesus= Joshua-Jehovah saved Lord= Jehovah - self exsitent one

I'm not trying to prove anything.   A lot of people would agree with you.  I know the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus is the archangel Michael and a god with a small g.   That would put him on the same level as Satan.  And, some here do not believe he is God.  That's cool, but I disagree.

Replacing the word angel with its proper meaning of MESSENGER, [at least for me,] makes it all much more understandable.
Gabriel was a messenger. Michael is the Arch messenger. Jesus I believe is the CHIEF messenger. I, myself am not at all befuddled as to who is is doing the rebuking in Jude 9 The LORD rebuke thee. I know that God the Father THE LORD will do the rebuking. I have no problem knowing that there is but ONE Lord and ONE God andFather of all.

Luk 2:13  And suddenly there came with the messenger a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14  `Glory in the highest to God, and upon earth peace, among men--good will.'
Luk 2:15  And it came to pass, when the messengers were gone away from them to the heavens, that the men, the shepherds, said unto one another, `We may go over indeed unto Bethlehem, and see this thing that hath come to pass, that the Lord did make known to us.'

Please, its bad enough this post is about "who is satan" and now you are gonna bring Jehovah wittness's about who Michael is. Michael MEANS who is like God...Do you know of anyone in the Bible who is like God? Arch(foremost, first messenger(angel) does a name besides Jesus come to mind? If so who? And the Lord long ago showed me that very few would believe His Word, they would no see it, until.....

Michael "who is like God" always came across to me as an honourable question presented through a name, rather than a title of one's nature.

Michael seems to have been a relatively common name in Biblical times.  There are several Michael's in Chronicles who are not Messengers.

Who is like God?  If God has his way, everyone will be.

And, it'd be suitable for you not to yell at Molly, you seem to be yelling anyway, chivalry is a lovely virtue, as is long suffering.

QuoteAnd the Lord long ago showed me that very few would believe His Word, they would no see it, until.....

I see an awful lot of these sorts of posts as of late; using God as a means of ultimatum.  The Lord has not shown me this, and may in fact have shown me completely differently.  "Michael is my top Angel".

Forgive me for saying this, but I am not ready to believe you on your word when it comes to things like this, just because there is a "revelation from the Lord" or variation of such attached to it.  It doesn't resonate with my spirit, and I am not entirely certain you are getting the point in application.

It is true, the Lord said not many will believe his word.  But we can't apply that to everything we present...Infact, Jesus I'd say did give you that revelation that not many would believe his word - its true, its consistent.  But it is a statement of fact really, not a revelation of a Michael-Christ doctrine.

If it is, testimony, confirmation and biblical scriptures are what I request.

13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

--Mat 16

Lefein, You can understand the name word Michael anyway you desire. If I was yelling I failed to hear it, but if you say so then I guess I did because you told me I did.
"And the Lord long ago showed me that very few would believe His Word, they would no see it" [scratch the until]

Michael the Archangel, that what the Bible says not me.

Goodnight.

Goodnight Micah, God bless.

This is a very interesting article that agrees with Micah--too long to quote here.


Is Jesus the archangel Michael?

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html

Quote from: Cardinal on October 16, 2010, 10:28:15 PM
:cloud9: I love to read your posts PC.....they cause me s-t-r-e-t-c-h....... :winkgrin:

My memory stretches back to early childhood, where I pondered the universe and life before age twelve. After reading the Old Testament, I realized that there was a ribbon of truth (the living Spirit), blended with the thoughts of men who would slaughter innocent women and children, dashing babies against the rocks, and sacrificing their own to flames of fire. One of the reasons that I was never indoctrinated into "Hell Fire."  All of Scripture is inspired and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; but not many understand what it means to be admonished by the Spirit, nor are they open to being corrected and truly trained in the ways of righteousness. One word describes this, and that is Syncretism. Historically, languages have changed and so have the definitions based on the words of men who attempted to reconcile their own form of justice without mercy. Just look into almost any dictionary and you will see the additions of man's thoughts, especially when it comes to Religion. Hell and Eternity are only two examples that most on this forum are already aware of, however, the numbers run into the thousands. Satan is another one of those words that have been defined from the minds of men. Perhaps that is enough said, although I sincerely hope it was a good and acceptable stretch, nothing wrong with exercising. Now back to being pensive, meditative and somewhat reflective given that of the Spirit that resides within, as for understanding adversity all one needs to do, is look and listen.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:53:17 AM
Replacing the word angel with its proper meaning of MESSENGER, [at least for me,] makes it all much more understandable.

In the true sense of the word.

peacemaker

Quote from: peacemaker on October 18, 2010, 09:19:06 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on October 16, 2010, 10:28:15 PM
:cloud9: I love to read your posts PC.....they cause me s-t-r-e-t-c-h....... :winkgrin:

My memory stretches back to early childhood, where I pondered the universe and life before age twelve. After reading the Old Testament, I realized that there was a ribbon of truth (the living Spirit), blended with the thoughts of men who would slaughter innocent women and children, dashing babies against the rocks, and sacrificing their own to flames of fire. One of the reasons that I was never indoctrinated into "Hell Fire."  All of Scripture is inspired and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness; but not many understand what it means to be admonished by the Spirit, nor are they open to being corrected and truly trained in the ways of righteousness. One word describes this, and that is Syncretism. Historically, languages have changed and so have the definitions based on the words of men who attempted to reconcile their own form of justice without mercy. Just look into almost any dictionary and you will see the additions of man's thoughts, especially when it comes to Religion. Hell and Eternity are only two examples that most on this forum are already aware of, however, the numbers run into the thousands. Satan is another one of those words that have been defined from the minds of men. Perhaps that is enough said, although I sincerely hope it was a good and acceptable stretch, nothing wrong with exercising. Now back to being pensive, meditative and somewhat reflective given that of the Spirit that resides within, as for understanding adversity all one needs to do, is look and listen.

Im blessed [we are all blessed] that you could put it into words.

The magnificent wonder of it all.     :HeartThrob:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=PprCvi3fvxs

 :cloud9: Arch means "chief or principle", and I believe there are archangels, probably 7, reminiscient of the 7 angels and the 7 flames of the candlestick. Micheal fights for Israel, according to tradition. Gabriel is "revelatory" angel, he speaks revelations to the body, ie. he told Mary there was life in her. My  :2c: Blessings....

Isaiah 11:2 (NIV)
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord—

Revelation 4:5 (NIV)
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing.These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 (NIV)
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 18, 2010, 04:57:17 PM
:cloud9: Arch means "chief or principle", and I believe there are archangels, probably 7, reminiscient of the 7 angels and the 7 flames of the candlestick. Micheal fights for Israel, according to tradition. Gabriel is "revelatory" angel, he speaks revelations to the body, ie. he told Mary there was life in her. My  :2c: Blessings....

And you get this count of 7 archangels from where? :sigh:

Absolutes, probabilities, possibilities and unknowables. I like to stay within what is written for my absolutes. The rest is open to discussion- not necessarily worthy of disputation or concrete definition.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 05:39:33 PM



Isaiah 11:2 (NIV)
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord—

Revelation 4:5 (NIV)
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing.These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 (NIV)
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

excellent  :thumbsup: Those are the 7 spirits, I have wanted to know their identify for a while.

These spirts must be how God gives his gifts to the church.

spirit of wisdom, solomon, Daniel
spirit of power, healing gift etc
spirit of fear , for prophecy, respect to God
spirit of the lord, the comforter
spirit of counsel, Paul
spirit of understanding, Paul

This is new to me so there are many things I can draw from this. There are also probably more than one gift proceeding from each spirit. I think that's why not all prophecy or heal, because they might have the spirit of the lord, but they don't have a spirit of power to heal people.
:2c:

I'd only change one thing (not out of agreeing, but out of general helpfulness), he didn't give us a spirit of fear.  I'd call it Fear of the Lord specifically.  So as to avoid confusion.

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 04:48:15 AM
I'd only change one thing (not out of agreeing, but out of general helpfulness), he didn't give us a spirit of fear.  I'd call it Fear of the Lord specifically.  So as to avoid confusion.

Or perhaps 'respect unto the lord' , is that the same? coz it sounds better and makes more sense. But don't want to end scrambling up the scriptural meanings, because if you change one meaning, it can impact other scriptures.

:2c:

I do prefer Revere/respect, I know 'fear' meant the same thing back then in King James' day...but yea, we can update ;)

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 04:44:23 AM

Quote from: Pierac on October 18, 2010, 04:37:43 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 04:21:30 AM
It says in Daniel 10:13 that Michael was one of the great princes.  Not the.
I don't believe Michael is Jesus.

Then you believe correctly!  Jesus is the Son of God created in the womb of Mary!  
Luke 1:19  The angel answered and said to him, "I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news...
Luke 1:35  The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
:thumbsup:
Paul

How does what you show, that Jesus is not Michael / that Michael is not Jesus. Just who then "who is like God?" if not Jesus / Michael?

You're only looking at the part not the whole, listen to Paul...
Heb 1:1  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of
all things, through whom also He made the world.

Paul is telling you the old covenant was administered by Angles, but now in these last days, by God's Son! Jesus!

Heb 1:4  having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5  For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I
HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"? ... Heb 1:13  But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY
RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?

Now let's review the covenant given by angels!

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."


Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,

Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.


Paul

Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.


Paul

Was Jesus a messenger? Yes Jesus was/is the "chief messenger." What is an angel? I know there are celestial hosts, but angel is
to be a messenger. I wll stand by an earlier statement if the translators would have transalted the KJV properly most of the discussions on the site alone would never appear. The "word" satan means adversary, but the tranlators, for God reasons i must believe, made it a proper noun and thus there are so many stories, myths and fables. Is the AVERSARY real, you betcha. Is the Adversary powerful, you betcha. Will the Adversary be defeated....YES  Jo. 16:33
1Jn 2:13  I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14  I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 04:43:56 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 18, 2010, 05:39:33 PM



Isaiah 11:2 (NIV)
The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him —
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord—

Revelation 4:5 (NIV)
5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing.These are the seven spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 (NIV)
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

excellent  :thumbsup: Those are the 7 spirits, I have wanted to know their identify for a while.

These spirts must be how God gives his gifts to the church.

spirit of wisdom, solomon, Daniel
spirit of power, healing gift etc
spirit of fear , for prophecy, respect to God
spirit of the lord, the comforter
spirit of counsel, Paul
spirit of understanding, Paul

This is new to me so there are many things I can draw from this. There are also probably more than one gift proceeding from each spirit. I think that's why not all prophecy or heal, because they might have the spirit of the lord, but they don't have a spirit of power to heal people.
:2c:

:cloud9: This is why I think there are 7 archangels, they are the horns (speaks of power) and the eyes (speaks of omnipresence and understanding) of the Lamb in Revelation, and the blazing lamps (speaks of illumination and fire). Remember all the places where the angels were instructed to give understanding pertaining to a dream or a vision? It is one of these angels doing it, IMO.

The baptism in the HG releases the gifts of the Spirit in the believer. They are also imparted by the laying on of hands of those that have them, by the same Spirit. The HG does the works, the gifts are "works", the fruits are "emotions" of that same Spirit. both of these are illustrated on the number of knops and flowers on the golden candlestick, which has 6 branches on a central shaft, which is Christ, ie. from Him all blessings flow (oil flows, anointings flow). Blessings....

:cloud9: This is why I think there are 7 archangels, they are the horns (speaks of power) and the eyes (speaks of omnipresence and understanding) of the Lamb in Revelation, and the blazing lamps (speaks of illumination and fire). Remember all the places where the angels were instructed to give understanding pertaining to a dream or a vision? It is one of these angels doing it, IMO.

The baptism in the HG releases the gifts of the Spirit in the believer. They are also imparted by the laying on of hands of those that have them, by the same Spirit. The HG does the works, the gifts are "works", the fruits are "emotions" of that same Spirit. both of these are illustrated on the number of knops and flowers on the golden candlestick, which has 6 branches on a central shaft, which is Christ, ie. from Him all blessings flow (oil flows, anointings flow). Blessings....

Do you think these 7 spirits are angels? Could be as angels are called ministering spirits but, lets say a pastor receives a gift of healing, does that mean an angel follows him wherever he goes? Because to me I would have thought a gift of healing would be as spiritual water flowing from God into the cup of man, which overflows to be able to heal other people.

Because I don't know if you are saying that these 7 spirits are angels, but one of them is called the spirit of the lord and we know that is not an angel, so why should the others be angels, could they not be spirits? (not sure if they have personality, for Gabriel talks outside a man, but the holyghost is inside a man, and a healing gift seems to come out from within a man, out of his belly but no one says the healing gift talks- unlike the holyghost who does)

Just as there are angels and men and also cherubims, there could be spirit also, the same substance which animates animals and plant life, the breath of life.

 :cloud9: I think angels follow believers wherever they go, I think we have at least one assigned to us. I haven't studied the 7 angels thing to comment on it any more than I have. Angels were never my focus, He never really drew my attention to them, much, save Gabriel. I tend to let Him lead me thru the Word now, and have for years, as opposed to me digging in something.

The gifts flow thru the power of the HG, healing included. I do think the Lord is present in a more tangible way when a miracle type healing manifests, because that's been my experience in several ways. When I had my back healed, I was slain in the Spirit from His presence. Same way with when He healed my elbow (crushed joint); I was slain twice. Both times I felt intense heat hit the area that was being healed. Because these were in the beginning of my walk, in the first year, I think that is one reason why I was allowed to physically feel His healing presence, as a faith builder to KEEP my healing.

A lot of people receive healings, but have no wisdom to know how to keep it, because the enemy of our souls comes right behind and tries to rob them of it. The extra faith boost that "heat" provided to let me KNOW that something had happened, helped me stand on His promises and keep the healing.

With the terminal cancer that was healed in a week, I was much older in the Lord, and no "handkerchiefs" were allowed. I had to believe His word to me personally IN SPITE OF the fact I was still hemmoraghing, and I literally called my mind and body a liar and commanded them to line up with the Word of God. When He said if you believe with NOTHING DOUBTING, you shall have whatever you say, I can tell you that your body and your mind are what "doubts" and you have to take authority over them.

I repeated what He said to me (have what you say), and made sure nothing else "doubted" that, by refusing to entertain the thoughts I was being bombarded with. Resist the devil and he will flee. Dying is easy, we don't have to do anything special to die; standing on His PERSONAL word to you about a situation, is not, because this is WHEN the enemy of our souls comes to kill, steal and destroy. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: CardinalI think angels follow believers wherever they go, I think we have at least one assigned to us.

:thumbsup:

Isaiah 55:11   
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


how come you cannot use handkerchiefs cardinal? did he tell you that? and focus on the word of faith as above.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 08:31:42 AM
Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.
Paul
Was Jesus a messenger? Yes Jesus was/is the "chief messenger." What is an angel? I know there are celestial hosts, but angel is
to be a messenger. I wll stand by an earlier statement if the translators would have transalted the KJV properly most of the discussions on the site alone would never appear. The "word" satan means adversary, but the tranlators, for God reasons i must believe, made it a proper noun and thus there are so many stories, myths and fables. Is the AVERSARY real, you betcha. Is the Adversary powerful, you betcha. Will the Adversary be defeated....YES  Jo. 16:33
1Jn 2:13  I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14  I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.

Indeed, but scripture never speaks of Jesus being an angel,  your reading into scripture instead of out of scripture. So what does scripture teach?  Was Jesus a Angel or a Man?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter?

a.   A Angel
b.   A God
c.   A man

If you chose answer c, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don't know.  You might think that must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

1.   Who did God raise? That's right, this MAN!
2.   Who raised this MAN? God! I read of no Angel being raised

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1.   Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2.   Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you're getting the hang of it.
1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.
2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "Angel."

Let's review a KEY verse!

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think we've got it now.  Jesus is a MAN anointed by God, not an Angel.  Hallelujah! So that's what Peter was saying in Acts. :thumbsup:

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on October 19, 2010, 08:11:32 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 08:31:42 AM
Indeed,  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son!  Jesus was no angel.
Infact,  He was made lower than the angels and then given a name above all names! Believe your scriptures.
Paul
Was Jesus a messenger? Yes Jesus was/is the "chief messenger." What is an angel? I know there are celestial hosts, but angel is
to be a messenger. I wll stand by an earlier statement if the translators would have transalted the KJV properly most of the discussions on the site alone would never appear. The "word" satan means adversary, but the tranlators, for God reasons i must believe, made it a proper noun and thus there are so many stories, myths and fables. Is the AVERSARY real, you betcha. Is the Adversary powerful, you betcha. Will the Adversary be defeated....YES  Jo. 16:33
1Jn 2:13  I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father:
1Jn 2:14  I did write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I did write to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God in you doth remain, and ye have overcome the evil.

Indeed, but scripture never speaks of Jesus being an angel,  your reading into scripture instead of out of scripture. So what does scripture teach?  Was Jesus a Angel or a Man?

Acts 2:22 – "Jesus the Nazorean was a MAN commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

Now you tell me which part of this verse is hard to understand. What is Jesus according to Peter?

a.   A Angel
b.   A God
c.   A man

If you chose answer c, you are correct! If you chose any other answer, you need to read it again. Well, Peter probably meant something else. What? I don't know.  You might think that must be the only verse in the New Testament that says that. Not quite.

Acts 10:40 – This MAN God raised on the third day."

It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

1.   Who did God raise? That's right, this MAN!
2.   Who raised this MAN? God! I read of no Angel being raised

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

1.   Whom Did God appoint? A MAN.
2.   Who appointed this MAN? God.

Now you're getting the hang of it.
1 Timothy 2:5 – "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus."

1. Who is the mediator? The MAN Christ Jesus.
2. Who is he the mediator between? God and men.

He is not the mediator between himself and men, but between God and men. You can see that Jesus is not considered in the term "Angel."

Let's review a KEY verse!

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man"

So wait, I think we've got it now.  Jesus is a MAN anointed by God, not an Angel.  Hallelujah! So that's what Peter was saying in Acts. :thumbsup:

Paul

In micahs defence I'd say that michael was bc not AD. For the name of Jesus is difficult in the old testament, it is I AM that speaks to Abraham and I am is Jesus.

But here's something that might be of help. In the book of Daniel several men appear to him in visions, one of them is given a title of the son of man, but michael is given the title "man". In scripture Jesus is known as the son of man and angels are known as men. So in this vision we have 2 different men, one of these is debatlable and the other is michael. We know one is michael, but the son of man vision could be an angel and michael could be pre/Jesus or the word. Which figure is who?

Both can be ascribed to as God or I AM.

Well if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

     Micah perhaps these articles help you a little in your quest:
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1113690965.htm
http://christianblogs.christianet.com/1153909017.htm


 

---

    Q:

     

WW I have no quest as per angels. Angels are ministers. Should people have the desire to make them more than that so be it.
I cant tell you how many stories I have hear in my 65 years that are told to small children about "angels." The Bible is a book of Truth, not a book to take things out and make up stories and fables; that is just how christianity keeps losing its viability.
I spent many hours looking for a "guadian angel."  I have no quest as per angels.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 08:42:31 PM
Well if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

Indeed, It makes Him the Messiah, the Christ!

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 08:25:08 PM
It doesn't get any simpler than this. There is no way to misunderstand this verse. Okay, let's see if your catching on.

In micahs defence I'd say that michael was bc not AD. For the name of Jesus is difficult in the old testament, it is I AM that speaks to Abraham and I am is Jesus.
But here's something that might be of help. In the book of Daniel several men appear to him in visions, one of them is given a title of the son of man, but michael is given the title "man". In scripture Jesus is known as the son of man and angels are known as men. So in this vision we have 2 different men, one of these is debatlable and the other is michael. We know one is michael, but the son of man vision could be an angel and michael could be pre/Jesus or the word. Which figure is who?

Both can be ascribed to as God or I AM.

Do they indeed?

There has been quite a bit of discussion on John 8:58. What happened to this verse as to confuse so many? Let's start in Exodus.

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am'

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are not God or angels. So just what was Jesus saying?

But what about the great "I Am him" statement of Jesus?  Especially that classic one in John 8:58 where Jesus says, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was born I am"?

Surely here Jesus makes the same claim for himself that Jehovah God made back in Exodus 3 where the LORD says to Moses at the burning Bush "I Am Who I Am."  Surely Jesus is claiming to be the I AM of the Old Testament as Trinitarian belief asserts?

Now here is something very obvious that they never told you in church.  This expression from Jesus' lips "I am" (Greek ego eimi) occurs throughout the Gospel of John and in no other text in John can it mean I AM, the God of the Old Testament.

Go back to John 4:25-26 for instance. The woman at the well said to Jesus, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when that one comes, he will declare all things to us." And Jesus said to her, "I who speak with you am he."  You will notice that in most Bibles that word he is in italics.  This means that the translators have correctly supplied a word in English that is not in the Greek but that nevertheless makes the intended sense quite clear.  Here Jesus says to the woman - in the context of her question about the Messiah - that he is the Messiah, the Christ.  "I who speak to you am he."  In the Greek it reads ego eimi. Jesus simply says I am he, the Messiah.  Definitely not "I am is the one speaking to you!"

In John 9 Jesus heals the blind man. Is this really the beggar who used to sit groping in the dark? Some people said, "Yes, it's him all right."  Other said, "No, he just looks like him." But the beggar says, " ego eimi!"  And the translators have no problem writing, "I am the one." So why aren't the translators consistent?  Why not capitalize what this man says as I AM?  Because it is clear that he is not claiming to be the God of the Old Testament. Saying "I am" (ego eimi) does not make somebody God or an Angel in the Bible!

What Jesus is saying is simply "Before Abraham was born, I am he,"  that is, "I am the Messiah."

Notice the context in John 8:56 where Jesus says, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day."  By faith Abraham looked forward and saw the coming Messiah before he came in history. He believed the promise that God would send the Promised One.  On the other hand these Jews did not believe that Jesus was their Messiah. They were claiming to be Abraham's descendents.  Jesus said that this was impossible for they did not recognize him as their Messiah. But Jesus asserts that even before Abraham was born, he is the One who was always in God's plan. This Abraham believe and saw.  The Messiah preexisted in God's plan and therefore in Abraham's believing mind, because he trusted the promise of God.  Jesus positively did not say, before Abraham was, I was."  Also, Jesus did not say, "Before Abraham was, I AM WHAT I AM."

The conclusion is inevitable.  Jesus' claim "Before Abraham was born, I am he" is the straightforward claim that he is the long promised one, the Messiah, the One in question. Jesus is the Savior in God's promise even before Abraham was born, not some Angel.

The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus Was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:6. They give the very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus, NEVER claimed to be an Angel! But God's Messiah... The Christ!


Paul

QuoteWell if one has to hold on to the "word" angel iin their belief and use, then so be it. The word and the way it has been used in fable and myth in religions and christianity, I to, would not want Jesus mixed up with the word "angel"  either.
As far as I will understand it, Jesus is the Chief messenger, and yes my friend He was a man, and that point makes Him not the arch angel?

Besides the word "Messenger" (IE: the office of these beings), what exactly according to your belief, and understanding...is an Angel?

TCB John 8:58
Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted tranlation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings: Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo.3:14)] ."

Text between [..] is commentary.
you+ is plural

^YLTIsa 41
4 Who hath wrought and done, Calling the generations from the first? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last I am He.
^YLTExod 3
14 And God saith unto Moses, `I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Belief? Understanding?
The word "angel"  OT "mal ak"  despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger."angel"     NT "aggelos"   to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

Are there celestial bodies, yes. 1Co 15:40  and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;

I have no "belief" concerning angels, they are messengers/ambassadors.

I asked you what you believed they were species wise, not who they were concerning their office - Messenger.

I'll ask again then, as clearly and as simply as I can.

Of what "species" or "order of creature" do you believe these beings (the creatures whom God gives the office of "Messenger" to) are?

To ensure you get what I mean, I'll ask again in a metaphoric way.

If I have a creature, whom I give the office of Mouser, what type of creature is he, what is his species?  (you would answer; he is a cat)

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 11:28:14 PM
I asked you what you believed they were species wise, not who they were concerning their office - Messenger.

I'll ask again then, as clearly and as simply as I can.

Of what "species" or "order of creature" do you believe these beings (the creatures whom God gives the office of "Messenger" to) are?

To ensure you get what I mean, I'll ask again in a metaphoric way.

If I have a creature, whom I give the office of Mouser, what type of creature is he, what is his species?  (you would answer; he is a cat)

Man, an ass, perhaps a dove.

Thank you, now I have a clear understanding of your belief regarding Angelic beings.

Non-existent?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 10:18:49 PM
WW I have no quest as per angels. Angels are ministers. Should people have the desire to make them more than that so be it.
I cant tell you how many stories I have hear in my 65 years that are told to small children about "angels." The Bible is a book of Truth, not a book to take things out and make up stories and fables; that is just how christianity keeps losing its viability.
I spent many hours looking for a "guadian angel."  I have no quest as per angels.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

knock annd ye shall find, seek and the door shall be opened to you.


Matthew 18:10   
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

I guess the myths ar true after all,  :bigGrin:

have faith in the word.

No to me. But thanks.

Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

I'm a bit curious, Cherubim, Seraphim...None of these are men, donkey's, marmosets, blue birds, turtles, turtledoves, or doves...What are they?  Cherubim, and Seraphim are I believe, the names for their office also by the way.

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 11:56:22 PM
Thank you, now I have a clear understanding of your belief regarding Angelic beings.

Non-existent?

H3742  cherub Of uncertain derivation; a cherub or imaginary figure: - cherub, [plural] cherubims.

H8314  seraphims burning, that is, (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically a saraph or
symbolical creature

Is everything pertaining to God, Heaven, and Heavenly beings figurative?

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=03742 Cherub according to Strongs (though I myself somewhat dislike Strongs personally)

http://www.studylight.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=08314 Seraph according to Strongs.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 01:11:18 AM
No to me. But thanks.

Mat 18:10  `Beware! --ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens,

so you seek in vain  :sigh: if it was faith that motivated you, you would have jumped for joy in seeing the scriptures concerning angels, but you saw, but yet did not believe, so what motivated you to seek the angel scriptures?

If you are talking about in answer to your post, Ive known about Matt.18:10 for sometime. If you are talking about what motivated me originally, then it was to get understanding of why so manny stories are made up of angels in christian books, and hollywood, and just the lore itself.

For the same reason Jesus used parables.  An imagination to express truth, or beautiful things is a gift from God.  He himself is creative.

Disclaimer; that doesn't mean our imaginations haven't been abused, or is unable to be abused.

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 01:55:12 AM
For the same reason Jesus used parables.  An imagination to express truth, or beautiful things is a gift from God.  He himself is creative.

Disclaimer; that doesn't mean our imaginations haven't been abused, or is unable to be abused.

Amen

 :cloud9:  Because bro, there are 3 realms of prayer, to correspond with the 3 main feasts, and the 30, 60, and 100 realms. We must move from glory to glory as He directs, and that entails changes in how we approach Him, just as it did with the people that approached Him in the literal Tabernacle. Blessings....

An angel appeared to me once, touched me on the chest, and spoke to me.

What did he say?  And look like?

Alas, I've never seen an Angel myself, that I know of.

   I don't expect anyone to take my word for...as I see there is sure to be some skepticism, but I am not ashamed of my testimony :o).... the angel appeared as a multicolored translucent spirit body wearing a shirt with starbursts on it, and when he disappeared there was a starburst left in the air for a few moments. I had been in intense prayer over a critical decision in my life.The angel touched me on the chest and I felt it as if any human hand were touching me, and he spoke and said, "Stay right where you are, brother" which at the time I took to mean that I should stand in the decision I had made while praying and meditating. Grace & Peace, John

 :cloud9: I believe you. I heard Gabriel speak. If we are seated in heavenly places with Him, it stands to reason that the inhabitants of heaven, at the Lord's direction, should "bump elbows" with us from time to time.  :laughing7: Blessings....

Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2010, 04:08:29 AM
   I don't expect anyone to take my word for...as I see there is sure to be some skepticism, but I am not ashamed of my testimony :o).... the angel appeared as a multicolored translucent spirit body wearing a shirt with starbursts on it, and when he disappeared there was a starburst left in the air for a few moments. I had been in intense prayer over a critical decision in my life.The angel touched me on the chest and I felt it as if any human hand were touching me, and he spoke and said, "Stay right where you are, brother" which at the time I took to mean that I should stand in the decision I had made while praying and meditating. Grace & Peace, John

Amazing!  I'm rather excited.  Angels are fascinating creatures...A glimpse into what our own glorified selves will be like, as we will be like Angels afterall - not Angels by creature, but made of "equal stuff" so to speak.  What fun! :D

Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2010, 04:08:29 AM
   I don't expect anyone to take my word for...as I see there is sure to be some skepticism, but I am not ashamed of my testimony :o).... the angel appeared as a multicolored translucent spirit body wearing a shirt with starbursts on it, and when he disappeared there was a starburst left in the air for a few moments. I had been in intense prayer over a critical decision in my life.The angel touched me on the chest and I felt it as if any human hand were touching me, and he spoke and said, "Stay right where you are, brother" which at the time I took to mean that I should stand in the decision I had made while praying and meditating. Grace & Peace, John

Interesting story, thanks for sharing. Cool it looks like possibly we can wear t shirts in heaven, I'd probably get bored of the white robe look after a while. I might get a tshirt that says "I'm in heaven"  :cloud9: .

I for some reason always imagine Jesus as wearing a casual white suit, walking around barefoot, wearing an ictus necklace (elegant, simple and not gaudy), constantly smiling...and recently the thought occurred to me that he is shaven.  His beard was plucked out afterall... :laughing7:

And on top of all of that...For some reason he always has a saucer, and a cup of tea with him, just about everywhere he goes.  Jesus seems to love his tea when ever he pops into my head...one reason I insist on having a private tea with him when I do eventually get into that heavenly mansion of mine.

...At any rate I guess that means I'll get to wear some comfy clothes myself.  :happygrin:

Quote from: Lefein on October 21, 2010, 05:23:41 AM
I for some reason always imagine Jesus as wearing a casual white suit, walking around barefoot, wearing an ictus necklace (elegant, simple and not gaudy), constantly smiling...and recently the thought occurred to me that he is shaven.  His beard was plucked out afterall... :laughing7:


I'm sure he could resurect his beard also  :bigGrin:

And on top of all of that...For some reason he always has a saucer, and a cup of tea with him, just about everywhere he goes.  Jesus seems to love his tea when ever he pops into my head...one reason I insist on having a private tea with him when I do eventually get into that heavenly mansion of mine.

...At any rate I guess that means I'll get to wear some comfy clothes myself.  :happygrin:

The problem is there will be a big queu waiting to have a cup of tea with him also, if your in front of me, let me in so I can jump the queu  :laughing7:  I don't think Jesus will take kindly to that though!

Its okay, you can come and visit my mansion if you'd like. :)

Quote from: eaglesway on October 21, 2010, 04:08:29 AM
   I don't expect anyone to take my word for...as I see there is sure to be some skepticism, but I am not ashamed of my testimony :o).... the angel appeared as a multicolored translucent spirit body wearing a shirt with starbursts on it, and when he disappeared there was a starburst left in the air for a few moments. I had been in intense prayer over a critical decision in my life.The angel touched me on the chest and I felt it as if any human hand were touching me, and he spoke and said, "Stay right where you are, brother" which at the time I took to mean that I should stand in the decision I had made while praying and meditating. Grace & Peace, John

wow he called you, 'brother.'  That means you're part of the family. :Sparkletooth:

Thanks for telling us about this.

 :cloud9: I thought that was interesting, too, Molly. Reminds me of the one with John who told him he was of his fellow servants, the prophets. Wondering about the identity of angels, again..... :winkgrin:

Who maketh his angels(messengers) spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
(Psa 104:4)

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
(Job 1:6)


When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:7)

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
(Rev 19:10) ...... (Maybe this was another translated saint like Enoch, or one of the wave offering saints that were resurrected at the crucifixion of Messiah in Matthew 27:52)

Then the devil *left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.
(Mat 4:11) 

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
(Heb 1:13-14)


Perhaps He makes all His messengers flames of fire whether they be angel or human. Then we would all be sons of God and thus brothers in the fire.

 :cloud9: I can see that. I met a kingdom/sons of God minister out west one time. When he got up to speak, he spoke maybe 4 sentences, all the time listening for what to say next. He finally said the Lord said to pray for everyone for something and he came down and walked thru the body.

When he got to within 6 feet of me, I literally like a wall of flames of fire that didn't burn. I took my hand in the air and went up and down it, feeling the flames sort of "tickle", astonished. Just then the Lord brought back a dream/ vision I had about 2 years before and I realized I was in the place of this dream/vision that I had had, and this was the wall of fire I had seen in the dream. He had shown me the fire, but I saw no man in it. Blessings....