The two witnesses are: Israel and the church

[micah7:9]

I still lean to an understanding derived from what Jesus said of "two witnesses."  It was Jesus, what He said as witness to the truth and the miracles His Father did confirming His word.  Each of us is a witness and "God with us," Immanuel, is the other witness.  In other words, each and everyone of us, on that basis, can say, "Just Jesus and me:  we're the two witnesses."

That sounds pretty good to me.

[reFORMer]

"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.  I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 8^17-18; Concordant Literal Translation)

Specially with The Book of Revelation, I don't see why we should be limited to the text on one hand and a sort of meta-text column beside it which is considered "The True Interpretation."  Sounds like followers of David Koresh.  How about Israel and the Eclessia for the corporate witnesses and each of our selves with our Father for individual witnesses and Spirit and Word for symbolic witnesses, etc.?  I think we need to keep freeing ourselves from dogmatizing what we think God really meant to say and exalt the value of the text itself instead.  (Can you hear, in memory at the castle, the great Doctor's words, "It's alive!  It's alive!"?)

(I know I keep repeating some things because I do it on pupose.)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Could this be why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, because each WITNESS each other?  :winkgrin:

[Doug]

:cloud9: Could this be why it says you can't have the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father, because each WITNESS each other?  :winkgrin:

How did the Father witness to Jesus?

By a voice from heaven: Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; John 12:28.

By miracles, such as healing, raising the dead, etc.

John 10:25
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
   
By raising Jesus from the tomb

Acts 3:14-15
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you
And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

By sending the Spirit of truth

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Exactly. And it's the same way He's going to "witness" us, and does witness us. Signs and wonders follow them that believe. In the OT it was mentioned somewhere that God was their rereward, which is an old English term for "rearguard". Angels go before us, the Christ is with us, and God Himself is behind us. He has us hedged in as His vineyard. Awesome thought, eh? Blessings...

[Doug]

"Yet in this law, also, of yours it is written that the testimony of two men is true.  I am the One testifying concerning Myself, and the Father Who sends Me is testifying concerning Me." (John 8^17-18; Concordant Literal Translation)

Of course Jesus testified of himself, as his death is remembered when the saints observe the Lord's supper; Jesus said; "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." [Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25]

But the two witnesses are something else. They bear witness against the world, and of the church too. The scriptures, and the Spirit, are two things Jesus himself said would testify of him. [John 5:39; 15:26]

Specially with The Book of Revelation, I don't see why we should be limited to the text on one hand and a sort of meta-text column beside it which is considered "The True Interpretation."  Sounds like followers of David Koresh.  How about Israel and the Eclessia for the corporate witnesses and each of our selves with our Father for individual witnesses and Spirit and Word for symbolic witnesses, etc.?  I think we need to keep freeing ourselves from dogmatizing what we think God really meant to say and exalt the value of the text itself instead.  (Can you hear, in memory at the castle, the great Doctor's words, "It's alive!  It's alive!"?)

(I know I keep repeating some things because I do it on pupose.)

The two witnesses of Revelation 11 are not the church and the Jewish state. But, IMO the said two witnesses do give witness about those things; the restoring of the Jewish state, for example, is the healing of the "deadly wound" of one of the heads of the beast in Revelation 13:3. The ancient province of Judea was part of the Roman empire which, in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, received a "deadly wound." So the formation of the Jewish state in 1948, and events since then, confirm the "witness" of the scriptures, which said the deadly wound would be healed. The name "Israel" applied to it, is one of the names of blasphemy in the heads of the beast, IMO.

Revelation 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

To understand the prophecies is the "hidden manna" that Jesus promised those who overcome. [Revelation 2:17]

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

In an earlier post I presented a quote from E. W. Hengstenberg's commentary on Revelation, refuting the rationalist and preterist views of the temple of Revelation 11:1-2, that John was told to measure, which said the prophecy refers to the Jerusalem temple, before it was destroyed in the first century.

Another theory, which was taking hold when Hengstenberg wrote, was that embraced by the followers of John N. Darby, and many in the Plymouth Brethren sect, which said the temple was a literal one, that would be built in Jerusalem in the future. Hengstenberg refutes that opinion in the quote below.

The Revelation of St John: expounded for those who search the Scriptures, Volume 1
Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg   
T. & T. Clark, 1851

Link

p. 408

We shall now take a glance at the views which have been adopted of the preceding section, different from ours.

According to some the temple and the holy city must not be the symbol of the church; but the vision must refer to the external temple, and the literal Jerusalem; and, indeed, to the fates of the restored temple and the Jerusalem of the last times. But no trace whatever is to be found here of Jerusalem and the temple being in ruins at the time of the vision nor any trace of a rebuilding to take place in the future, either here or in any other part of the book. But prophecy can never so entirely separate itself from the ground of the present, to influence which is always its more immediate object, and to which, therefore, it must constantly raise a bridge. On this also rests all certainty of exposition as to the future. And that the means should be provided for such certainty is a necessary consequence of the divine nature of prophecy. A truly divine prophecy cannot possibly swim in the air; nor can the church be left to mere guesswork in the exposition of Scripture, which has been given to her amidst the darkness. Then, this literal method of exposition belongs to an entire chain of representations in regard to the kingdom of God, which has recently indeed, and especially in England, obtained extensive support, where in particular the society for the conversion of the Jews is pervaded by it. We cannot, however, regard it as agreeable to Scripture. It is a kind of revival of the Jewish-Christian tendency in the ancient church-- the idea that the converted Jews in it are to form a sort of spiritual nobility in the church, and that for them as a separate, distinguished, and most illustrious part of it, there are destined quite peculiar honours and wonderful performances. We may almost say that this view is the worm in the noble fruit of the Jewish mission, the success of which is now rather poor. It nourishes in the converted the natural pride, the extirpation of which should be one of the first objects of a true spiritual activity. It misleads the converted to form a sort of peculiar brotherhood among themselves, and prevents them from properly incorporating themselves with the general society of the Christian church, in which alone the means of recovery can be found for so many wounds as they have necessarily brought along with them from the corrupt social life of their nation. Let us here also look back to the soundness of the older church, not out of reverence to it, but because it has Scripture rightly understood on its side, and cease to change Jewish Christians into Christian Jews. The result of a free and enlightened investigation of Scripture in reference to this point is expressed by the excellent Vitringa in these words: "This distinction is entirely taken away under the new economy. For, as the heathen, who were converted to Christ, were grafted in to the Jewish olive-tree, and have taken on them, as it were, the person and form of the Jews; so shall the Jews, who in the latter days shall be converted to Christ, be grafted into that church of the heathen, or rather become incorporated with the mystical and spiritual Jews, and without any difference possess along with them the same condition in the kingdom of Christ. All are one in Christ." He remarks also specially in respect to the Revelation, "I would particularly draw attention to this, that throughout the whole of this book no separate mention is made of the Jewish as distinguished from the Gentile Christians, and this on the clear and obvious ground, that under the new economy all distinction of races in matters of religion is taken away. Never in any part of the Apocalypse do prophecies occur in respect to the Jews, in so far as these are opposed in matters of religion to "the heathen." Since one cannot forbear to assent to what Vitringa says in regard to the Revelation, the view sustains on this ground alone a heavy blow. For, we are thus driven generally out of the territory of the New Testament, there being scarcely any passages elsewhere which one could even attempt to bring in support of the view in question. The declarations in the epistle to the Romans are rather unfavourable to this view. They speak much of the blessing, which the conversion of the Jews shall bring to the church of the future, but nothing whatever of a new church from the Jews, of the restoration of Jerusalem, the rebuilding of the temple, nor generally of a return of the old beggarly elements, which have been completely swept away by Christ and his blood, placing all nations on a footing. The question is thus thrown entirely back upon the Old Testament, and so, the position maintained on the other side becomes a very difficult, or rather a quite hopeless one. We must leave it to the Jews, to draw from the Old Testament alone articles of faith and expectations of the future. We Christians apply in the first instance to the New Testament, and if we find anything in the Old Testament, which seems to oppose it, or to go beyond it, this only serves to indicate our want of a proper understanding. What appears there to favour the modern Judaistic view, rests merely on this want as to its foundation. If any one is ready to conclude, that wherever Israel is spoken of, the Jews are meant, he can certainly prove much; but little good will be done by such a light and superficial mode of expounding the Old Testament Scriptures. What the Spirit has spoken must be spiritually understood, as the sayings everywhere apply: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear; he that reads, let him understand; here is the mind that hath wisdom. Even the promises given to the patriarchs do not respect the children of Israel as opposed to believers from among the heathen; but comprehend along with them such as might be ingrafted into the olive tree, Rom. xi. 17, 24. (See the investigations on the promises made to the patriarchs in the Christol. III. p. 50, ss.) An olive tree, a people of God stands from first to last--an Israel out of which the false seed is excluded, and into which believers from among the heathen were adopted.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[reFORMer]

Doug,

The link you just published is so wonderful I'm becoming delirious.

The 20 volumes of Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament by Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm, 1800-1873.  Edinburgh. T & T Clark, 1881-1891.

It has been said by those in Academia who should know that it is possibly the best Commentary series on the Greek language.  Previously I have seen a used hardcopy for $400.00, though whether available now and for how much I don't know.  It wouldn't be as useful as a digitized edition anyway.  At $1.95 per volume...

I expect there will be much to rejoice about for KirtasBooks.com

(Am I dreaming?)

[Doug]

Doug,

The link you just published is so wonderful I'm becoming delirious.

The 20 volumes of Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament by Meyer, Heinrich August Wilhelm, 1800-1873.  Edinburgh. T & T Clark, 1881-1891.

It has been said by those in Academia who should know that it is possibly the best Commentary series on the Greek language.  Previously I have seen a used hardcopy for $400.00, though whether available now and for how much I don't know.  It wouldn't be as useful as a digitized edition anyway.  At $1.95 per volume...

I expect there will be much to rejoice about for KirtasBooks.com

(Am I dreaming?)

AFIK the link I posted is not part of the series you refer to.

http://books.google.com/books?&id=PN5JAAAAMAAJ

Volume 11 of the series you cite is:

Handbook to the Revelation of John
Dr. Friedrich. Düsterdieck,
Tr. by Henry E. Jacobs, D.D.
Critical and exegetical commentary on the New Testament, Volume 11
Heinrich August Wilhelm Meyer
Funk & Wagnalls, 1887

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0NDAAAAYAAJ


The author claims that the apostle John did not write the book, and promotes the error of preterism in the work. He says of Revelation 11, "the whole chapter is to be referred to the impending destruction of the city." [p. 312] The translator states in the Preface:

This volume is offered as a help to such study. Its author, Dr. Fr. Düsterdieck, is well known as a writer on Apologetics, and still continues to publish exegetical papers in Luthardt's Zeitschrift für kirchliche Wissenschaften and elsewhere. He has furnished us with perhaps the most important commentary on this book which we thus far possess. His spirit is reverent and devout, his judgment generally calm and discriminating, his investigations wide and exhaustive. Although we concede so much, we are by no means ready to indorse his opinions on all the subjects presented, and in several of his long discussions we regard his judgment, which is ordinarily trustworthy, as seriously at fault. In revulsion from the assumptions of the Tübingen school, which conceded the apostolic origin of the Book of Revelation, and then from that basis endeavored to prove, because of dissimilarity of style, etc., the non Johannean origin of the Gospel ascribed to St. John, our author has taken the directly opposite position, and denied the apostolic origin of Revelation,-- with what success, the reader must judge. Compelled in translation to examine the argument very closely, it has seemed to us at every step unsatisfactory, forced, and unworthy of the high character of this work. It must not be inferred, however, that, in denying that the Apostle John wrote the book, he also denies its inspiration: this he maintains, although with limitations which many of our readers will doubtless regret, as may be seen on pp. 84 sqq. The author belongs to the praeterist class of interpreters, and argues that the time of composition was prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.

I have already posted on the question of whether John was the author of the Apocalypse in this thread. Also see:
Did John write the Apocalypse?

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

In an earlier post I presented a quote from E. W. Hengstenberg's commentary on Revelation, refuting the rationalist and preterist views of the temple of Revelation 11:1-2, that John was told to measure, which said the prophecy refers to the Jerusalem temple, before it was destroyed in the first century.

I thought I had posted some of Hengstenberg's comments on the rationalistic and preterist view of Revelation 11, but maybe not.

They can be found at the link below, which is an 11 page pdf file:

Link


Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

John Bale (1495-1563), the Reformer, understood the holy city of Revelation 11:2, which is trampled by the Gentiles, to be the Christian Church, and the 42 months as symbolic. On this verse he said, in his book The Image of Both Churches, which was the first commentary on Revelation to be written in English, published in 1547,

And the holy city (of whom glorious things are spoken) they shall tread under foot for the space of 42 months. Not the earthly Jerusalem is this city, builded of men, and made holy by the outward observations and ceremonies of the Jews as many expositors have fantasied. For of that (as Christ prophecies) is not one stone standing upon another. But this city is the sure building of God, grounded upon the strong foundation of the Apostles and prophets, even upon the hard rock stone Jesus Christ. This is the pleasant possession, the wholesome household, the sure hold, and the delectable vineyard of the Lord of Hosts. This is the living generation of them which feareth, loveth, and seeketh their Lord God in faith, spirit, and truth, and not in outward shadows. These are the children of promise, the true offspring of Abraham, the chosen of Israel, and the kingdom of the holy ghost. Pure, clean, and holy hath Christ made this city, by none other thing but the only shedding of his precious blood.

This city tread they underfoot, that keepeth down the truth of the gospel, that persecutes, and fleeth God's people for it, that defeateth his word for their own traditions, that bringeth in the Jewish ceremonies, the gentiles' superstitions, pagan customs and heathen usages, poking men with impossible burdens of false worshippings for their own filthy lucre and anauntage. Not withstanding thus must they do still by the sufferance of God, till the 42 months to be finished, which is not else but the time, times, and the half time, or the thousand, two hundred and sixty days, in that God shall shorten the time for his chosens' sake. Thus after saint Paul also, before the Lord's coming, there must be a departing.

This refers to the apostasy, and the critical scholars, dispensationalists, and preterists all departed in later years from the spiritual interpretations of the prophecies of Revelation that were suggested by Bale and the other Reformers. In his comments on Revelation 12:6, Bale identified (correctly, IMO) the 1,260 days with "the time of the Gospel preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world." He wrote:

The numbered days here are none other but the afore written time of the two witnesses, the time of Elias' preaching, the time of John's preaching, the time of Christ's preaching, or the time of the Gospel preaching from Christ's ascension to the end of the world. That is the very time of the feeding of his church. And not open is this feeding here, but secret in the wilderness among a sort unknown to the world, having the poverty of the spirit without having anointing, or hypocrites' apparel. And not only hath the Lord thus nourished his people in this spiritual respect, but also in body. When they have been grievously handled, spoiled of their goods imprisoned, and exiled, graciously has he relieved them, and provided for them both solace and comfort at the hands of them whom they never saw before. So that the just has not felt himself forsaken, nor his children seeking bread.

In modern times, G. K. Beale, professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, has returned to a view similar to that of Bale. He said,

John views the 'time, times and half a time' of Dan. 12:7 as the inter-advent age beginning from the time of Christ's resurrection and leading up to the final judgment. The identification of the threefold time formula from Daniel is deductable especially from 12:4-6, where the period begins from the time of Christ's ascension and refers to the church's time of suffering (so also 12.14). The same meaning is apparent for the equivalent phrase 'forty-two months' in 13.5, which describes the time of the beast's blasphemous and persecuting activities.

[G. K. Beale, John's Use of the Old Testament in Revelation. Sheffield Academic Press. 1999 p. 263.]


Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Below is a portion of James Burton Coffman's Commentary on Revelation 11:1, which cites several references to other commentators who identify the temple referred to here as the saints or the church, rightly IMO.

Link


Measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship ...

"Temple of God" in this passage is impossible to accept as a reference to the literal Jewish temple in Jerusalem, called by the Son of God himself a "den of thieves and robbers." That an angel of God should have been concerned with having John measure that desolation (Matthew 23:38) is inconceivable. "It scarcely seems possible to doubt that temple here is used figuratively for the faithful portion of the Church of Christ." F8 In fact, the word here rendered temple is actually sanctuary (ASV margin), "The Greek word [nous] means the "holy house, where God dwells ... The use of [Greek: nous] here for the thing to be measured makes a literal interpretation of temple impossible." F9 "For John, the temple is the Christian Church, the people of God." F10 "This sanctuary symbolizes the true church." F11

If any distinction is to be made between the temple and the altar, which is doubtful, it would appear to be that the altar refers to the worship itself, the doctrine and practice of the faithful portion of the church; and the temple refers to the whole body of the church.

The measuring of the "worshippers" would naturally mean the evaluation of their lifestyle, character, and behaviour by the principles taught in the word of God. Thus the corporate body of the church, its doctrine, worship, and teaching, as well as the individual character and conduct of its members would all be included in the measuring. Significantly, there have been pronounced departures from the word of God in all of these categories by the historical church.

What is the purpose of the measuring? In the Old Testament, things were "measured" either for destruction or for preservation; but the identity of what is measured here suggests that "the measuring is a symbolical way of declaring its preservation, not from physical sufferings, but from spiritual danger." F12 Hendriksen likewise concurred in the judgment that the measuring here means "the setting apart from that which is profane." F13

This measuring by the word of God has the same purpose and effect as the sealing of the 144,000 in Rev. 7. The sealing there is done by the Holy Spirit; and the measuring here is by the word, i.e., those who are indwelt by the word (Colossians 3:16). The indwelling, whether by the Spirit, or by the word, being exactly the same either way. There is no difference. See my Commentary on Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians, pp. 97-99. It is good to note that many scholars have seen this correspondence with the sealing. "This corresponds to the sealing in Rev. 7:1-8." F14 An important deduction from this is that:

    The vision therefore declares that whatever corruptions invade the church, the kernel of the church will never be destroyed; but out of it there will arise those who will be true to the Master's commission. F15

This promise of protection for God's church, indicated in this vision by the "measuring," was made by the Lord himself in Matt. 28:18-20.
   

8. A. Plummer, The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 22, Revelation (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950), p. 288.
9: Charles H. Roberson, Studies in Revelation (Tyler, Texas: P. D. Wilmeth, P.O. Box 3305, 1957), p. 69.
10: William Barclay, The Revelation of John (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1976), p. 68.
11: William Hendriksen, More than Conquerors (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1956), p. 153.
12: Robert H. Mounce, Commentary on the New Testament Revelation (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1977), p. 219.
13: William Hendriksen, op. cit., p. 152.
14: Robert H. Mounce, op. cit., p. 219.
15: W. Boyd Carpenter, Ellicott's Bible Commentary, Vol. VIII (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1959), p. 584.


Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Why does John feature two witnesses, in his prophecy about measuring the temple? 

A feature in the temple's design, that could correspond to two trees, and two candlesticks, in John's prophecy, were the two bronze pillars, that stood on either side of the porch of Solomon's temple. They were called Boaz and Jachin. These two pillars were 8.2 m high, and 1.8 m wide, with capitals 2.4 m high; the bowl-shaped capitals were wrapped with wreaths, decorated with two rows of 200 bronze pomegranates around each pillar, and each bowl was capped with lilies of bronze.

The ornamentation at the top of the pillars is thought by some scholars to have given them the appearance of enormous lamp stands. In the time of Hezekiah, they were overlaid with gold. [2 Kings 18:16]

Below are the scriptures describing the these two pillars.

1 Kings 7:13-22
13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.
14 He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.
15 For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.
16 And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits:
17 And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter.
18 And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter.
19 And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits.
20 And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.
21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.
22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished.

1 Kings 7:41-42
The two pillars, and the two bowls of the chapiters that were on the top of the two pillars; and the two networks, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars;
And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;

2 Chronicles 4:13
And four hundred pomegranates on the two wreaths; two rows of pomegranates on each wreath, to cover the two pommels of the chapiters which were upon the pillars.

The role of pillars, and their role as witnesses, is indicated by two incidents in the life of Jacob, each involving setting up pillars. When Jacob fled from his brother Esau, he came to a place where he spent the night, and dreamed of a ladder reaching from the earth to heaven, and angels ascended and descended on it. God was at the top, and he promised Jacob that he would give him the land, and also that in his seed, all the families of the earth would be blessed. [Genesis 28:11-14]

Jacob called the place Bethel, meaning house of God, and set up the stone which he had used as a pillow stone as a pillar. [Genesis 28:16-22] Later, Jacob dug a well near this place.

The role of a pillar as a witness is explicit in another incident, when Jacob and his uncle Laban set up a heap of stones, and a pillar, as witnesses to a covenant between them both, which said that neither Jacob, nor Laban, would pass by that place to do any harm to the other.
   
Genesis 31:51-52
And Laban said to Jacob, Behold this heap, and behold this pillar, which I have cast betwixt me and thee:
This heap be witness, and this pillar be witness, that I will not pass over this heap to thee, and that thou shalt not pass over this heap and this pillar unto me, for harm.

During his ministry Jesus visited Jacob's well, where he met a woman of Samaria. In their conversation, Jesus told the woman that those who worship God would no longer go to Mount Gerizim, or to Jerusalem, but must worship God in spirit and in truth.

John 4:19-24
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In John's prophecy, which is about measuring the temple, the presence of the two pillars, Boaz and Jachin, at the porch of Solomon's temple, may be what the two witnesses in his prophecy allude to. They seem to represent the scriptures, and the spirit of God. The two things Jesus mentioned, spirit and truth, are like two pillars, or witnesses, set up at the entrance to the spiritual temple of God. For Jesus, the word of God in the scriptures is truth. [John 17:17] Entrance to the spiritual temple, and true worship, involves both of these.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[micah7:9]

Since when is The Revelation of Jesus Christ....John's prophecy?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Food for thought.....to he that overcometh, him will I make a PILLAR in my Father's temple. The network is similar, from what I've read, to the fretwork around the top of the mercy seat, which is like a crown.

Pomengranates speak of fruitfulness, and they have exactly 613 seeds, the number of the laws of Torah. Lillies speak of linen and righteousness, the garment of the saints. Note the comment about how the lillies toil not (righteousness that comes from faith not works). Blessings....

[Doug]

:cloud9: Food for thought.....to he that overcometh, him will I make a PILLAR in my Father's temple.

Yes, the temple here can hardly be the one made with hands.

Paul referred to the church as a pillar.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
   
Many commentators relate this to pillars such as the ones in the pagan temples, like the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus. These pillars supported the upper walls, and beams holding up the roof. But Paul is speaking of a pillar as a witness, I think, rather than one used for structural support. I think he was quite likely thinking of the pillar that Jacob set up, which he called "God's house."

Genesis 28:22
And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

The network is similar, from what I've read, to the fretwork around the top of the mercy seat, which is like a crown.

Pomengranates speak of fruitfulness, and they have exactly 613 seeds, the number of the laws of Torah. Lillies speak of linen and righteousness, the garment of the saints. Note the comment about how the lillies toil not (righteousness that comes from faith not works). Blessings....

The belief that there are 613 seeds in a pomegranate is a Jewish tradition, but according to the site below, the number of seeds is actually quite variable.

http://www.aquaphoenix.com/misc/pomegranate/

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[micah7:9]

very good bump

[Doug]

very good bump

OTOH, the average number of seeds in 206 pomegranates from 6 different countries was reported to be 613.

Hmm...


Doug


Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Below is a list of interpreters who have attempted to explain and interpret the 42 months [Rev. 11:2], when the holy city is trampled by Gentiles, and the 1,260 days of the ministry of the two witnesses [Rev. 11:3]. These periods correspond to the 1,260 days of Rev. 12:6, and the time, times and a half, of Rev. 12:14, and the 42 months of the beast's reign. [Rev. 13:5] The dates proposed by each interpreter for the fulfillment of the period are also included.

Victorinus (died c. 303); a future three and a half years
Tyconius (died c. 390); 30-380 AD
Alcuin (c. 735-804); the whole age of the church
Benyamin ben Moses Nahawendi in c. 860 AD: the 1,335 days of Dan. 7:12 end 1012 AD  
Joachim of Fiore (1130-1202); 1BC-1260 AD
Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino in 1250: 1BC-1260 AD
Pierre D'Olivi (1248-1298); 1,260 years ending in the 14th century
Walter Brute in 1391: 135-1395 AD
John Bale (1495-1563); the whole age of the church
John Foxe (1517-1587); 1,260 years from 2nd century King Lucius, when the gospel came to Britain
David Chytraeus (1530-1600); 412-1672 AD
William Fulke (1538-1589); the whole age of the church
George Gifford (c.1548-1600); the whole age of the church
David Pareus (1548-1622); 606-1866 AD
John Napier (1550-1617); 300-1560; 316-1576 AD
Thomas Brightman (1562-1607); 304-1546 AD
James Brocard (b. 1563); 313-1573 AD
Pierre Du Moulin (1568-1658); 429-1689 AD
Hugo Grotius (1583-1645); 67-70 AD
Joseph Mede (1586-1638); 476-1736 AD
Johann Heinrich Alsted (1588-1638); 362-1622 AD
Lodowicke Muggleton (1609-1698); 1652-1658 AD
Drue Cressener (1642-1718); 606-1848 AD
Isaac Newton (1642-1727); 800-2060 AD
William Whiston (1667-1752); 455-1715; 476-1736; 606-1866 AD
Johan Albrecht Bengel (1687-1752); 1143-1810 AD
John Gill (1697-1771); 606-1866 AD
Moses Lowman (1679-1752); 756-2016 AD
Bishop Thomas Newton (1704-1782); 533-1793; 606-1866; 727-1987 AD
Joseph Galloway (1731-1803); 606-1866 AD
David Simpson (1745-1799); 538-1798; 606-1866; 666-1926; 756-2016 AD
George Stanley Faber (1773-1854); 606-1866 AD
William Miller (1782-1849); 538-1798 AD
Edward Irving (1792-1834); 533-1793 AD
Samuel R. Maitland (1792-1866); a future three and a half years
Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg (1802-1869); the whole age of the church
James Stuart Russell (1816-1895); 67-70 AD
Robert Young (1822-1888); 67-70 AD
Joseph Augustus Seiss (1823-1904); a future three and a half years
Michael Paget Baxter (1834-1910); 537-1797; 1867-1871 AD
Henry Grattan Guinness (1835-1910); 533-1793; 606-1866 AD
Joseph Franklin "Judge" Rutherford (1856-1942); 1914-1918 AD
James Burton Coffman (1905-2006); the whole age of the church
Ernest L. Martin (1932-2002); 2020-2027 AD
Ronald Weinland (1949- ); 2008-2012 AD
Gregory K. Beale (1949- ); the whole age of the church

Further details on the above list are given in this file.

In the early ages of the church, the 42 months when the saints were oppressed by the beast [Rev. 13:5], the 1260 days [Rev. 11:3; 12:6], and the time, times and a half [Rev. 12:14], when the woman was fed by God in the wilderness, could easily be applied to the condition of the church, which was persecuted by the Roman Emperors, who were represented by the beast. Paul said the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness was for "our examples," 1 Cor. 10:6, 11.

Interest in the idea that the 1,260 days might represent years peaked in the 13th century, with the ideas of Joachim of Fiore. In later centuries, Protestant historicist interpreters applied the prophecy of the 42 months, when the beast overcomes the saints, to the Roman Catholic Church; they allowed an ever growing gap between the apostolic age, and the beginning of the period of apostasy, and the 1,260 days. During that time, it is implied the saints were not fed by God, and were not nourished spiritually in a place "prepared by God." [Rev. 12:6, 14] The idea of a gap was not introduced into the Church by the futurists, but by the Reformers, who saw the papacy as the Antichrist.  

Some historicists applied the 1,260 years to worldly kingdoms, political developments, and national interests. John Foxe identified Britain with the woman of Revelation 12. German princes, for example, probably believed that Luther's teachings would help them obtain independence from the domination of the Holy Roman Empire. Thomas Brightman related the 1,260 days to the events of the Counter Reformation, and the Council of Trent convened by pope Paul III in the year 1545. Johann Heinrich Alsted connected the 1,260 years with the sack of Heidelberg in 1622.

Joseph Mede said the 1,260 days and 42 months and time times and a half all refer to the same time period. Thomas Brightman said the plagues associated with the trumpets were brought by the two witnesses, who "smite the earth with all plagues," and so the period of their ministry must apply to the previous history of the Church.  

Historicist interpreters saw the 1,260 days as applying to their own time, or said that the time would be fulfilled soon after. They expected its imminent fulfillment. In the late 18th century the turmoil of the French Revolution and events of the Reformation seemed to fulfill prophecy; the events of the period were so appalling, they cast a shadow over the 19th century, and many claimed the 1,260 days must have ended then.

Historicists like Bishop Newton, Simpson, Baxter, Guinness, and others were vague about which events began and ended the 1,260 years. Their methods seemed ad hoc. Seiss and others criticized the Historicist interpreters for being inconsistent, and those criticisms were valid. Futurism and preterism were reactions to the proliferation of dates by historicists, and were seen as alternatives to the confusion of historicism. But Seiss ignored the writings of men who said the time refers to the whole age of the church, such as Alcuin, John Bale, William Fulke, George Gifford, Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, and others; perhaps he was ignorant of them.

The interpreters who said the time times and a half and the 1,260 days refer to the whole age of the church, Alcuin, John Bale, William Fulke, George Gifford, Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, James Burton Coffman, Gregory K. Beale, and others, are entirely consistent. To them, the criticisms by Seiss, about lack of agreement, do not apply.

The idea of a gap, as introduced by historicists, and as adopted in futurism, and also preterism which sees the entire age of the church as a "gap," to which prophecy does not apply, imply that during the period for which such a gap applies, which is some portion or all of the history of the church, the saints have not been fed by God, and they have not been nourished spiritually in a place "prepared by God." But Jesus said, "lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." [Mat. 28:20] Preterists say that the end happened in 70 AD. Their opinions are founded on the silly idea that the generation of Jesus Christ has passed away.

The prophecy of Daniel 7 said the little horn of the fourth beast would "speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws." [Dan. 7:25] The "times" mentioned here, I think, must include the "times" in Daniel's prophecy; the 70 weeks and the "time, times and a half" in which the saints are "given into his hand." The little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and so represents the human viewpoint, as opposed to the divine viewpoint.

In the variety of man's opinions about the time, times and a half and the 1,260 days represented by the names in the list above, there may be a fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel which said "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." [Dan. 12:9-10] The words were "sealed" till the end time. So perhaps that is a reason why all those men who studied the prophecies in the previous centuries failed to fully understand them, even though the list includes some of the world's greatest minds, such as Sir Isaac Newton; it was not yet the "time of the end." But since Daniel also said, "the wise shall understand," the saints should expect to fully understand these time prophecies at the appropriate time.

The 42 months, the time, times and a half, and the 1,260 days all represent half of a prophetic week, which I suggest is the 70th week of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy; it is the week in which Christ confirms his covenant with his saints. Jesus began his ministry when that 70th week began; the prophetic half-week is the completion of it. And the entire "week" is "seven times," and the fulfillment of the last of four periods of "seven times" in Lev. 26, when God is to be reconciled to his people. It is the time that was foreshadowed in the life of Jacob, who labored for seven years under Laban, for his bride Rachel, but that seven years turned out to be a bit longer than was expected.

In the list of names above, and the variety of interpretations of the 42 months, the time, times and a half, and the 1,260 days, there is an illustration of the sackcloth clothing of the two witnesses; the Scriptures and the Spirit. Many of those men identified the Scriptures as one of the witnesses, or both; others said the assembly of the saints, or the Spirit of Christ, were also one of the two witnesses, even while postulating a limited time of 1,260 years for their ministry. And this idea that their time was limited to 1,260 years was the basis for one of the criticisms by Seiss. He said: "It is not true that the Old and New Testaments are preached to the world only 1260 days, or years, and then end their testimony;--that they are arrayed in sackcloth all the days they are preached;--that fire issues out of their mouths and kills those who will to injure them;--that there is no rain upon the earth during the days of their prophesying;--that they have power over waters to convert them into blood, or at will to smite the earth with plagues;--that they are capable of being killed by man;--or that indignity can be offered them, being dead, by refusing to allow them to be put into a sepulchre. Yet all these things are affirmed of these Witnesses."

But, these opinions of Seiss, IMO, are part of the fulfillment of the prophecy of the two witnesses; his literalism "kills" the "Spirit" and exults the "letter." Literalism is a weapon of the beast that ascends from the pit; it is also the weapon of atheists and skeptics, and of the rationalist higher critics. The witnesses are said to be clothed in sackcloth, an inferior, and unattractive material, unsuitable for the saints, who are to be clothed in fine linen. "For the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." [Rev. 19:8]

The historicists who believed that they were living in the time of the ministry of the two witnesses, the Scriptures and the Spirit, now seem to have been far more enlightened than the futurists, or the preterists, who deny that they are in the wilderness, or in that place prepared by God, where they are being nourished. But if they are not in the wilderness, where are they? In the outer court of the temple? Or are they still in Egypt?

Literalism is one of the foes of the two witnesses, which wars against them, and kills them. The "flood from the mouth of the serpent," a flood of flawed interpretations,  threatens to carry away the woman, but "the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." [Rev. 12:15]

When we have the perspective that comes from above, that is provided by an understanding of prophecy, represented by the two wings of an eagle that are given to the woman, we can see the hand of God that works out his plan in the world for the benefit of his Church; the sackcloth in which the witnesses are clothed represents the obscurity of human interpretations; the two witnesses, even when misinterpreted, have "tormented" men through the centuries; who can deny that the influence of the Bible and of the Church have been dominant in the history of Europe for centuries?

The variety of opinions about the 1,260 days, is also a fulfillment of Dan. 12 :7, "when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." The "scattering" of the saints' power is fulfilled by the diversity of interpretations, and the tens of thousands of denominations, and cults, and sects. It is the Antichrist that causes it! And it happens during the "time, times and a half," which is best understood as representing the entire age of the church.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Below is a chart that presents the time periods related to the 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2 and 3, Revelation 12:6 and 14, and Revelation 13:5. The 1,290 days and the 1,335 days are from Daniel 12:11-12. The horizontal bars represent the relative sizes of the periods; I suggest they end at the same time; the top period encompasses the lower ones. They all end at the same time, at the "consummation" at the end of the age.

All these numbers fit the pattern of "a time, times, and a half." The 1,335 days is one year of 12 months, plus two and a half years of 13 months; the 1,290 days is one year of 13 months, plus two and a half years of 12 months, where the months are taken to be 30 days. The 1,260 days is similar where all years are 12 months, etc. Therefore, they are representations of the "time, times, and a half," but they are progressively shorter, and so the smaller the period, the later the start point of it, as shown in the chart.

1,335 days

1,290 days

1,260 days

42 months

3.5 days

The 1,335 days encompasses all the other periods; Daniel says of it, "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [Dan. 12:12] The one who waits must be Christ, who waits for the time when the saints are raised up to immortality. I think, this period of 1,335 days represents the time of the Church, from the very beginning when Christ was resurrected.

The next longest period is the 1,290 days, the start point of which, IMO, can be fixed, from what Daniel says: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." This seems to point to the time of the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem by the Romans, in 70 AD, as that was when sacrifices ceased. After that, a temple of Jupiter (or Zeus) was built, by Hadrian. So we can say that this period began at the destruction of Jerusalem.

Then we have the 1,260 days that occur in Revelation 11 & 12, shorter than both the numbers provided by Daniel. This is associated with the time that the two witnesses prophesy. If we take one of the witnesses to be the Scriptures, they were completed only when John finished writing Revelation, and brought together all the other writings in the NT; so the ministry of the two witnesses, the Spirit and the Scriptures, can be said to have begun after the other two periods of Daniel 12:11-12; therefore it is shorter; their ministry has continued over the centuries since. The Scriptures and the message of the Gospel have gone to all parts of the world; the Scriptures and the witness of the saints have "troubled" the nations of Europe and also many other nations. But the beast, who is Satan, has crept out of his pit, where he was placed by Christ, and deceived Christians, and divided them into tens of thousands of sects, cults, and denominations. They are also divided in their opinions about prophecy; some are preterists, some dispensationalists or futurists, others historicists, etc. So their power is limited; the message is seen as "dead" and the gospel and the scriptures ridiculed, the Church has been made "desolate," as Daniel foretold. Much of the confusion is because of the various interpretations of the "time, times, and a half," or the 1,260 days.

The shortest of all these periods is the three days and a half when the two witnesses lie in the street, and when the world rejoices over their demise, and people of the nations send gifts one to another.

It is followed by the revival of the two witnesses for a brief time and their ascent to heaven.
   
Now, below is another table that incorporates the previous one, and shows how these periods all relate to the earthly ministry of Jesus, which I have said preceded the start of the "time, times and a half," and the 1,335 days. I have shown that period in yellow at the left in the chart. The ministry of Jesus is often taken to be three and a half years, which can be supported from the Gospel of John. And so, together with the "time, times and a half" the two make "seven times." It is the 70th week, of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ "confirms his covenant with many."

	time, times, and a half
3.5 years	1,335 days
	1,290 days
	1,260 days
	42 months
	3.5 days

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Granted it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet,  :laughing7: but could you summarize this for me? I don't see the point you're trying to make with all this. Thanks.....

[Doug]

:cloud9: Granted it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet,  :laughing7: but could you summarize this for me? I don't see the point you're trying to make with all this. Thanks.....

All the numbers in the chart, represent part or all of the "time, times and a half," first mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and then in Daniel 12:7, and also in the New Testament, in Revelation 12:14.

Daniel 7:25 says it is the time that the saints are dominated by the little horn of the fourth beast. This little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Eyes like the eyes of a man suggests a human viewpoint, as opposed to the Divine viewpoint, which we are given in prophecy, when rightly interpreted.

In Daniel 12:7, a swearing angel says that the "time, times and a half" is the time to the end of all the things that are encompassed by Daniel's prophecies.  

I have arranged the numbers representing the "time, times and a half" in order, from the largest to smallest. The order seems to be:

time, times, and a half              
1,335 days              
1,290 days              
1,260 days              
42 months              
3.5 days  

I have put 42 months after the 1,260 days, because if these are lunar months, the number of days is about 1,240.

So we have a progressively smaller and smaller representation of the period; and that is how time works; it tends to run out, and become less and less. Think of aging, tax deadlines, getting to the concert, whatever.

The point of all these numbers, then, is to show us that time is running out; we are near the end of the 1,260 days, and the "time, times, and a half," in the very last "three days and a half" when the witnesses are like dead bodies in the street.

The time that is running out, is the time in which the little horn dominates the saints; when the dragon is cast out, and the saints overcome him, he "hath but a short time" left to deceive people.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Doug]

Here is how venerable Bede (672-735) understood the significance of the 1,260 days:

In this number of days, which makes three years and a half, he comprehends all the times of Christianity, because Christ, whose body the Church is, preached the same length of time in the flesh.

He understood that "all the times of Christianity," plus the ministry of Christ, is "seven times."

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ok, thanks, I can see that. It does seem to make sense as a literal witness that it would be that way. I didn't want to miss the point, I could tell you had put a lot of study into it. Sometimes things fly right over my head, though.  :laughing7: Blessings....

[Doug]

Here is how Methodius, (c. 815-885) understood the 1,260 days:

Moreover, the 1260 days, during which we are here in our pilgrimage, is the correct, exact, and most excellent knowledge concerning the Father and the Son and the Spirit, in which our Mother rejoices as she increases.

About Methodius, and his brother Cyril, from Wikipedia:

Saints Cyril and Methodius were two Byzantine Greek brothers born in Thessaloniki in the 9th century. They became missionaries of Christianity among the Slavic peoples of Great Moravia and Pannonia. Through their work they influenced the cultural development of all Slavs, for which they received the title "Apostles to the Slavs". They are credited with devising the Glagolitic alphabet, the first alphabet used to transcribe the Old Church Slavonic language. After their deaths, their pupils continued their missionary work among other Slavs.

Doug

Who are the Two Witnesses?