Misogyny in the old testament.

[Hennessey]

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not

Is this not at work today with regard to the fundamentalist.
They wordhip a god that sends the majoirity of his children to eternal torment.
This is not Our Father. Are they worshiping another god?
Do they love their neighbor when they condemn most of them to Hell?

I would not have pondered such six weeks ago but after spending much time for the first time in decades with the fundamentalists I wonder whether they know God. It often breaks my heart.

Jack

[SLN]

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

You really hit the nail on the head there I think.  :thumbsup:

What should also be considered is that God doesn't change, and his Word doesn't change. So how Jesus is, God is too and always has been, since he doesn't change! Behaviour and thoughts that differ from Jesus' then, suggest they are not of God, but of someone else.

"The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever."   Isaiah 40:8

If it stands forever, then how can we make the switch from law to grace? Abraham was righteous in the eyes of God, and he never followed the law. Because there was no law yet. And obviously, the law wasn't forever once it did came into existance. God's mercy and love however, are still here and have been here since the very beginning.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."   John 1:1-5

[Kratos]

This is where I come out on the OT God verses the NT God. I know that the explanation works for me in most instances, but nothing is perfect. Here are a few verses that reveal the key:

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Rom 15:4  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

Romans 9 records God saying that Jacob He loved and Esau He hated before they were born and before they had ever done either good or evil. When this was taken on the surface level only, it has given birth to the doctrine of Calvinism and the bellief that some are predestined to either be saved regardless of what they do or to suffer eternally in Hell regardless of what they do. But, reading the whole chapter in context and adding chapters like Gal. 4 which deal with the same subject correct this misunderstanding. It is talking about God's attitude toward the first born verses the second born. Yes, Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau, and Issac and Ishmael were used by God as living parables of this truth, but what is trying to be revealed through the OT is that God will always hate the first man of the flesh (the first Adam) and will always love and accept the second born man of the Spirit (second Adam). You can whine like Abraham did for Ishmael to live in His sight in an attempt for God to receive the works of our flesh, but He will always respond that we must cast out the bondwoman ( the unsaved soul) and her children (the works of the flesh) for they will never be heir with the son of the freewoman ( the fruit of the spirit).

So is it true that the OT deals better with men than women? Yes. But is He a mysogynist? No. No more than He is a respector of persons like with Jacob and Esau. The male represents the spirit- man and the female represents the soul-man who is not subject to the spirit.

Many have come to the same conclusions when it comes to husbands being over wives or women being silent in the church. Is there a truth here in these things? Yes, all of the Word is true. But, are these distinctions and rules of order given to show God's preference of one gender over another? No, they are types given to teach about the order of God on the inside of all of us that must be learned. The elder soul must come under the younger spirit (the elder must serve the younger) when Jacob and Esau are used for the examples. We were not supposed to learn that every older child must submit to their younger siblings. In the same way, the male represented spirit must be prefered over the female represented soul. Not because God prefers men over women, but because He prefers what comes from the spirit which is eternal as opposed to what comes from the soul which is temporal.

(Yes Jack, I finally got it) (private joke).

John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: This is gonna take some explaining, but the reason God didn't do anything to the man who put the woman out, is because the man was seeing thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) a truth hidden in God.

The woman is symbolic of the flesh of the inner court realm that is being judged now as to whether they are lukewarm (choosing to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit), and as such being spit out of His mouth, ie. cast back out into the outer court realm of darkness, wherein is the judgment of the flesh, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Everything that is happening out there, is a mirror image of what God is stirring up to deal with in the inner court priesthood's heart. The principle is that the body can only do what it sees it's head do, and we (inner court priesthood) were made to be one with the Head. So they, the outer court ones, when they see us (spiritually speaking) hate our brothers (in our hearts), they go out and kill theirs, hate and murder being the same thing.

So those that are of the inner court that do not allow the circumcision of the heart being performed by the Spirit in this hour, are being cast back out, Truth hidden from their heart, and darkness increasing. As the Christ rises in our hearts, the darkness flees, ordered long ago to join itself to the "swine", ie. those in the outer court that will eat anything, the husk and the grain. Thus, the wheat/Christ and the tares/darkness are raised or given strength, together. That's why it's getting darker and darker out in the world, as more and more of Christ is seen, simultaneously.

But God in His perfection and workings of grace in that none should be lost, has marked or "Sheba-ed" them (means to return again), so that after "Solomon" appears and "she" sees his wisdom the Lord has given him, and the riches of his kingdom, she will lose her breath/give up the ghost ;()

[Hennessey]

(Yes Jack, I finally got it) (private joke).

John

I needed something like that tonight to lift my spirits and give encouragement. I have been so wearied today as far as my sharings being received.

Bless you brother,

Jack

[firstborn888]

John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

Yes, but remember that Jesus told them they were making the 'word of God' of no effect by their tradition and not upholding the most important parts - "judgement and mercy" and not entering into the kingdom and blocking others etc. So he wasn't dissing the law at all, just their approach, right?
- b

[Kratos]

All,

I am going to say something here and I trust most know me enough to know that I do not mean to correct or rebuke anyone. I especially do not want to diminish the very real concerns about our Father in the hearts of the original posters who have been hurt by reading about women in the OT......Fair enough?

Here is a very key verse in understanding and accepting the things that we read in the OT. Remember, what I wrote in my last post on this thread about these things happening to them and being written down for our examples:

Jas 4:13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15  For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16  But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jas 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God sees us with the eye of faith and has predestined us all to be conformed to His image. This means that He sees us all as eternal and immortal. Now, suppose just to make it so we can grasp with our minds that eternity is a billion years (yes, WillieH, I know that eternal means no limited length of time even a long one). Do the math. What is the difference to any being that will live billions of years is there between say 14 years and 70 years. It is as James said, your life either 14 years or 70 years is but a vapor. It is here and gone again.

Now, if you are an atheist and believe that this life is it, dying at the hand of a murderer or rapist at 14 means that you were robbed of 80% of a normal life span and you can get very angry at God for allowing this to happen. This is why the word talks about being carnally minded is death and at enmity with God. Being carnally minded is not thinking sinful thoughts. It is minding the things of the flesh or thinking of things in terms of what they mean to the flesh only. Paul said it this way:

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Please do not answer that I am unfeeling or uncaring concerning those who died young in the OT by the command of God or for those who die young or badly now. I have lost many very dear to me including the 14 year old I am thinking of now. I could not bear it and still love God if I thought that this life is it. If I look at the literal Bible stories which are seen and temporal instead of the unseen things that are being taught us in the spirit through their examples which are eternal, then, I am being carnally minded. This carnal mind is what causes unbelievers to see the God of the OT as a monster. But, we who know that our 70 year life here is nothing, also, know that there natural lives whether long and peaceful or short and painfull is equally nothing in the big scheme of things as understood in eternity.

Even those who were killed by God's command in the OT or even treated horribly as some women were done to them and recorded for our learning. We owe it to them to learn our lessons well on whom the ends of the world has come. They will not be perfected without us and one day when we break open the door for mankind to partake of immortality, some whose hard lives that were used to teach us spiritual truths will thank us for learning the spirituals behind their natural lives and for bringing them with us into eternity.

Peace,

John

[SLN]

This topic sure took a different turn! :laughing7:

I'm gonna have to ponder on it at work today. The scripture Kratos quoted does seem to make some sense of it though, will have to read it again later. 

[Taffy]

:cloud9: This is gonna take some explaining, but the reason God didn't do anything to the man who put the woman out, is because the man was seeing thru a glass darkly (darkened soul) a truth hidden in God.

The woman is symbolic of the flesh of the inner court realm that is being judged now as to whether they are lukewarm (choosing to walk in the flesh and not the Spirit), and as such being spit out of His mouth, ie. cast back out into the outer court realm of darkness, wherein is the judgment of the flesh, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Everything that is happening out there, is a mirror image of what God is stirring up to deal with in the inner court priesthood's heart. The principle is that the body can only do what it sees it's head do, and we (inner court priesthood) were made to be one with the Head. So they, the outer court ones, when they see us (spiritually speaking) hate our brothers (in our hearts), they go out and kill theirs, hate and murder being the same thing.

So those that are of the inner court that do not allow the circumcision of the heart being performed by the Spirit in this hour, are being cast back out, Truth hidden from their heart, and darkness increasing. As the Christ rises in our hearts, the darkness flees, ordered long ago to join itself to the "swine", ie. those in the outer court that will eat anything, the husk and the grain. Thus, the wheat/Christ and the tares/darkness are raised or given strength, together. That's why it's getting darker and darker out in the world, as more and more of Christ is seen, simultaneously.

But God in His perfection and workings of grace in that none should be lost, has marked or "Sheba-ed" them (means to return again), so that after "Solomon" appears and "she" sees his wisdom the Lord has given him, and the riches of his kingdom, she will lose her breath/give up the ghost ;()

Hi Cardinal

lol..I can  see where your at here  :icon_flower:, considered posting yesterday but just didnt know where to start

Blessings
Taffy

[Taffy]

John 8:44

NASB

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Jesus was speaking to those who worshiped and followed the laws to a tee, followed all the rituals and sacraficial system...
How could their father be the devil :dontknow:

While they thought they where worshiping GOD, here Jesus tells them they where not :sigh:

Hi LT

Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I think maybe Kept may well have realised what was Coming :laughing7:

Tis the nature of the Beast , the enmity of the Flesh . :mblush:

Enmity is HATRED

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

One who HATES is called a Murderer AND A liar IS ???

1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 

1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
 
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 




Through their WORKS of the LAW and Pride in the self-righteousness which came with it , Blinded theM to see they were Still in Bondage\flesh to the ministry of DEATH.

The WORKS of Abraham Being WORKS of FAITH not LAW...the LAW being a Shadow of the reality to Follow.

Moses stands as their Accuser .the LAW carrying a FORM of TRUTH( shadow) but not the Reality.

Jhn 5:43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.


Jhn 5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?


Jhn 5:45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.

Jhn 5:46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.


Jhn 5:47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

compare with this



....... John 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


Jhn 8:33  They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


That which is Not of FAITH is SIN?

Jhn 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Jhn 8:35  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever.


Jhn 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Jhn 8:37  I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.


Jhn 8:38  I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.


Jhn 8:39  They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jhn 8:40  But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Jhn 8:41  Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.


Jhn 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

(Faith cometh By Hearing)


Jhn 8:43  Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

Jhn 8:44  Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Jhn 8:45  And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.

why? Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law



Jhn 8:46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?


Jhn 8:47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.


Jhn 8:48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?


Jhn 8:49  Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.


Jhn 8:50  And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.


Jhn 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.


Jhn 8:52  Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.


Jhn 8:53  Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?


Jhn 8:54  Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:


Jhn 8:55  Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The GOOD news For ALL

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; 

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

For mine Christ SPEAKING to the very nature of their Flesh ...the enmity of it.

Blessings
T,
PS back on topic  :icon_flower:

[Loveroftruth]

I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

But the Living parables in the NT match up and tell a true story about The Father and Jesus - they show a true character... yet the parables we see in the OT show us a barbaric, non-loving God who doesn't really care about many but a few :dontknow:

[Redlettervoice]

Good thinking, here, Taffy!  Everyone of us have to read this thousands of times to "get it!"

So I'm bringing it to the top!  It is the thing we should rehash over and over and over ......

Because our "carnal mind" does NOT believe this, but our "INNER MAN" does, and He will

swallow UP what? To be carnally minded is "death" and "death" is the last enemy to be

not only overcome, but DESTROYED!  The word Deutronomy means "repetition".......the children

of Israel went round and round the mountain of Sinai, til one day they said "We have camped

"this" mountain long enough....it's time to move.....and we are NOW and have been since Calvary

invited to MT. Zion!  The second coming of the Lord Jesus is a "repetitive" SOUND of BELIEF in

our hearts of Calvary! 



Gonna wash that old man right outta my hair! ha

PUT on the NEW!

It's really not NEW, just NEW to us as we "understand" it!  Things "new" and OLD! Remember?

You are good at the law/grace thing.  I know you either taught KIM or she taught you, she is

too. I wish she'd get herself back over here.......because I can't maneveur over there where

she is.

[Taffy]

Gonna wash that old man right outta my hair! ha

PUT on the NEW!

RepititionGal 4:21  Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Gal 4:22  For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


Gal 4:23  But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.


Gal 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.


Gal 4:25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.



yo sis so true
Being one who was truly Bound to LAW , it was coming to see the Law V faith and Grace
which set ME TRULY FREE...
Old man\new man
Flesh\ Spirit
Law \ Grace & Faith
Old C \ New C
Bondage\ Freedom
Child\ Son
Death\Life
Darkness \ light
Night \Day
MOON \SUN
Blind\ eyes
Deaf\Ears
Old Jerusalem\New Jerusalem

etc

I believe I shared it in part with Kim..?.long since...

Lol

Rose invited her over..but for now shes wheres she at Sharing her thoughts with others..who knows she maybe led here..I never say never
Blessings
Taffy

[Hennessey]

All,

I am going to say something here and I trust most know me enough to know that I do not mean to correct or rebuke anyone. I especially do not want to diminish the very real concerns about our Father in the hearts of the original posters who have been hurt by reading about women in the OT......Fair enough?

Here is a very key verse in understanding and accepting the things that we read in the OT. Remember, what I wrote in my last post on this thread about these things happening to them and being written down for our examples:

Jas 4:13  Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
Jas 4:14  Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jas 4:15  For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Jas 4:16  But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.
Jas 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

God sees us with the eye of faith and has predestined us all to be conformed to His image. This means that He sees us all as eternal and immortal. Now, suppose just to make it so we can grasp with our minds that eternity is a billion years (yes, WillieH, I know that eternal means no limited length of time even a long one). Do the math. What is the difference to any being that will live billions of years is there between say 14 years and 70 years. It is as James said, your life either 14 years or 70 years is but a vapor. It is here and gone again.

Now, if you are an atheist and believe that this life is it, dying at the hand of a murderer or rapist at 14 means that you were robbed of 80% of a normal life span and you can get very angry at God for allowing this to happen. This is why the word talks about being carnally minded is death and at enmity with God. Being carnally minded is not thinking sinful thoughts. It is minding the things of the flesh or thinking of things in terms of what they mean to the flesh only. Paul said it this way:

2Co 4:16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Please do not answer that I am unfeeling or uncaring concerning those who died young in the OT by the command of God or for those who die young or badly now. I have lost many very dear to me including the 14 year old I am thinking of now. I could not bear it and still love God if I thought that this life is it. If I look at the literal Bible stories which are seen and temporal instead of the unseen things that are being taught us in the spirit through their examples which are eternal, then, I am being carnally minded. This carnal mind is what causes unbelievers to see the God of the OT as a monster. But, we who know that our 70 year life here is nothing, also, know that there natural lives whether long and peaceful or short and painfull is equally nothing in the big scheme of things as understood in eternity.

Even those who were killed by God's command in the OT or even treated horribly as some women were done to them and recorded for our learning. We owe it to them to learn our lessons well on whom the ends of the world has come. They will not be perfected without us and one day when we break open the door for mankind to partake of immortality, some whose hard lives that were used to teach us spiritual truths will thank us for learning the spirituals behind their natural lives and for bringing them with us into eternity.

Peace,

John

John, I have seen this and other atrocities lightened a whole bunch with the truth of "this life and world being vaporous." I believe I have seen it by the Spirit. "A vaporous life" ....... one of the great promises in the Bible.

I am so ready for the next realm. He's been letting me have stay overs a couple nights a week.  :laughing7:

Jack

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well then, Jack I wanna come to YOUR house, LOL......

[Hennessey]

Card, the welcome mat is always out.

[Taffy]

LT.

Not wishing to hyjack the thread but inresponse to LT question

Just to add

Paul Himself was a Murderer , a Liar and a Man steeler... all ( after the LAW) preaching the Ministry of DEATH prior to conversion ,


1) a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer

a) of one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery

b) of one who steals the slaves of others and sells them



1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do].


1Ti 1:5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned:


1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;


1Ti 1:7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

1Ti 1:8  But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;


1Ti 1:9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


1Ti 1:11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


1Ti 1:12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;


1Ti 1:13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.


1Ti 1:14  And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.


the TRUE THIEF

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.( as for those in darkness)


n 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.   [/u]

the thieves and Robbers were the One and very same...Those WOLVES in sheep s Clothing?

10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.


Jhn 10:2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.


Jhn 10:3  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.


Jhn 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


Jhn 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.


Jhn 10:6  This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.


Jhn 10:7  Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.


Jhn 10:8  All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jhn 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

Jhn 10:11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Jhn 10:12  But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Jhn 10:13  The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


Jhn 10:14  I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.


Jhn 10:15  As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Blessings
Taffy

[Dean]

I am not saying that the things that happened in the OT were not real historic happenings, but if you fail to understand that these were living parables, you miss the point and can come away with all kinds of wrong conclusions. Here is a classic example that has given birth to a lot of misrepresentations about God.

But the Living parables in the NT match up and tell a true story about The Father and Jesus - they show a true character... yet the parables we see in the OT show us a barbaric, non-loving God who doesn't really care about many but a few :dontknow:

LT...IMO, very courageous and well said.

It was a loving God that created me with the capacity to desire that ALL men be saved. AND to desire that ALL...women and men be treated... justly...in this life.

That humans abuse other humans and BLAME God for it...is perfectly human and ALWAYS wrong. To abuse that which has been created in God's sacred image..a HUMAN BEING...is to miss the mark.

IMO...all proclamations that people use to credit their god for their killing, raping, plundering, stealing, abusing...other human beings are false. I'm hoping to be done... with minimizing and or jumping through theological hoops to defend...my own and others outrageous and disgusting human behavior, against other humans.

Dean

[Kept]

Dean you echo my heart as well

very well said  :HeartThrob:

kept

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: After reading some of the comments on here, I remembered my first reaction to the bloodiness of the OT, and my revulsion of it. I also remember my revulsion of the cross. Hadn't thought about it that way in a very long time; really unaware consciously of any change in me in that area, but there definitely has been one.

I don't see contradiction in the "2" Gods. I see BOTH as loving and merciful, just from His point of view, and not mine. His point of view is that all had to be done in the OT exactly as was recorded to present a natural "blueprint" for a generation of sons to be able to read spiritually and apply it thru the mind of Christ, that the WHOLE of creation, those things under the earth, above the earth, and in heaven/spirit, might all be brought into Christ.

Accusing God of being a murderer is missing the mark, yet saying He didn't have complete authority over what was happening at any given nanosecond is missing the mark also. The sin is not in killing; the sin is in not yet being able to resurrect what you have killed, into newness of life. This is why He tells us not to judge lest we be judged by the same measure. The sin is not in the judging; God judges things all the time. The sin is in our  inability to judge the flesh by quickening it, which is how God judges it. This is why His judgments are unto victory. The victory is in the Spirit.

What is really happening when He gives out revelation, is that the "old" terrestrial flesh is being judged by being compared, ie. weighed in the balances and found wanting, but the new "celestial" flesh which is Christ and not founding wanting for anything, is "resurrected" out of what once held it in the bondage of corruption. And both are preserved. Wonder how that happened.....:winkgrin: :mshock:

Abraham "killed" Isaac as surely as if he had plunged in the knife, for he took the thought and began to walk it out. If a man lusts in his heart, he commits adultery. Yet God said what Abraham did was counted unto him for righteousness. If God had not stopped him, it still would have been righteousness. There is no sin unless God tells you to do something and you DON'T do it. Many times the Israelites had to slaughter their own family members that had fallen away from obedience. The sons of Kore were swallowed up of the earth.

This is where the Israelites missed it. God changed horses in the middle of the stream and they didn't change also. He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, but what is the same is, that He is always changing, just to see if we're really following His Spirit in obedience, or have made camp around what He said yesterday.

Dust has no life of it's own; the life is in the Spirit. This life, this dust that we are, is only  mud painted on that which really is alive, so that we can see it thru these eyes. The invisible God desired visibility. He is sovereign. How can the pot say to the potter, why did You make me this way? The emotional soul ties to this realm of experience are being consumed with the fire of God, purified and cleansed of wrong motive, and it hurts, because that's where we "live". But it's what was worked into Jesus when He was able to say, "My brethren are those that do the will of my Father."

His ways are not our ways. He is always seeing the end from the beginning. All that has ever been has come out of the cross. All the past things that were recorded, came out of the cross. At that moment before the foundation of the world, time and Spirit met and there was an explosion. In the Spirit it is always now. He showed me this in the Spirit in a vision once. It's as if the Spirit stretched out the fabric of time to accommodate His girth. Hard to explain the things of the Spirit, Amen? Blessings to all........

[Loveroftruth]

Dean Wrote

That humans abuse other humans and BLAME God for it...is perfectly human and ALWAYS wrong. To abuse that which has been created in God's sacred image..a HUMAN BEING...is to miss the mark.

IMO...all proclamations that people use to credit their god for their killing, raping, plundering, stealing, abusing...other human beings are false. I'm hoping to be done... with minimizing and or jumping through theological hoops to defend...my own and others outrageous and disgusting human behavior, against other humans.

Dean, can you elaborate more about what you are saying here? more details!!!  i.e. what are you saying?...I am a bit slow :grin:
But really want to understand what your saying here :flowerred:

[Kept]

One thing I have been really thinking on, over the years I have received so much beautiful spiritual insight into the inner workings of Jesus within thru the ot stories. I marvel that thru all that time it never really bothered me much that real people were possibly involved and if it did crop up I dealt with it in 3 ways that Ive already shared.
I will repost them on this thread from my thread elsewhere:

Here is the way Ive come to deal with it

It is meant to be metaphorical - to express how man goes from being so carnal to spiritual and is about what goes on within man.
If those things all really transpired to real people they are now in that great cloud of witnesses, and their lives are not over as God has made them alive and do count for the bible says that
these things are written for those of you whom the end of days are upon. Therefore seeing the application of those things as we read them and allowing them to work in our lives would bless those that lived them.

Secondly, the bible says 'I kill and I make alive'....Vengence is mine..Thou shall not kill

I have come to see that the fact that God makes alive is the huge part of this equation. Man cannot make alive again what he kills, God can. Therefore, if in the grand scheme of things if killing works to the planned outcome God has in mind and since He makes alive again what He kills then He is not killing to kill as man does. Making alive is huge to me in this thought process.

Edited to add, thirdly, because I see all mankind as eternal and all are going to enjoy the same eternity, this life is a small drop in the bucket therefore what happens here is but a pinprick compared to the grand scheme of things and I dont feel I could see the grand scheme clearly enough at this time to judge with any real foundation if you will.

As of late, Ive began to wonder IF this verse does not also shed some light on this:

2Co 11:14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Thought to come back so Im not misunderstood, by this verse, Im saying that that God that is seen in the ot, is adversarial, not calling Him satan if you will, but adversarial but for us when we get the inner meanings that adversary is transformed into an angel of light. However, that still dosent settle it good enough to me lol

just sharing this so you will know what my processes have been, not sure if I shared that here or not, cant recall.

kept

[Hennessey]

:cloud9: After reading some of the comments on here, I remembered my first reaction to the bloodiness of the OT, and my revulsion of it. I also remember my revulsion of the cross. Hadn't thought about it that way in a very long time; really unaware consciously of any change in me in that area, but there definitely has been one.

I don't see contradiction in the "2" Gods. I see BOTH as loving and merciful, just from His point of view, and not mine. His point of view is that all had to be done in the OT exactly as was recorded to present a natural "blueprint" for a generation of sons to be able to read spiritually and apply it thru the mind of Christ, that the WHOLE of creation, those things under the earth, above the earth, and in heaven/spirit, might all be brought into Christ.

Accusing God of being a murderer is missing the mark, yet saying He didn't have complete authority over what was happening at any given nanosecond is missing the mark also. The sin is not in killing; the sin is in not yet being able to resurrect what you have killed, into newness of life. This is why He tells us not to judge lest we be judged by the same measure. The sin is not in the judging; God judges things all the time. The sin is in our  inability to judge the flesh by quickening it, which is how God judges it. This is why His judgments are unto victory. The victory is in the Spirit.

What is really happening when He gives out revelation, is that the "old" terrestrial flesh is being judged by being compared, ie. weighed in the balances and found wanting, but the new "celestial" flesh which is Christ and not founding wanting for anything, is "resurrected" out of what once held it in the bondage of corruption. And both are preserved. Wonder how that happened.....:winkgrin: :mshock:

Abraham "killed" Isaac as surely as if he had plunged in the knife, for he took the thought and began to walk it out. If a man lusts in his heart, he commits adultery. Yet God said what Abraham did was counted unto him for righteousness. If God had not stopped him, it still would have been righteousness. There is no sin unless God tells you to do something and you DON'T do it. Many times the Israelites had to slaughter their own family members that had fallen away from obedience. The sons of Kore were swallowed up of the earth.

This is where the Israelites missed it. God changed horses in the middle of the stream and they didn't change also. He is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, but what is the same is, that He is always changing, just to see if we're really following His Spirit in obedience, or have made camp around what He said yesterday.

Dust has no life of it's own; the life is in the Spirit. This life, this dust that we are, is only  mud painted on that which really is alive, so that we can see it thru these eyes. The invisible God desired visibility. He is sovereign. How can the pot say to the potter, why did You make me this way? The emotional soul ties to this realm of experience are being consumed with the fire of God, purified and cleansed of wrong motive, and it hurts, because that's where we "live". But it's what was worked into Jesus when He was able to say, "My brethren are those that do the will of my Father."

His ways are not our ways. He is always seeing the end from the beginning. All that has ever been has come out of the cross. All the past things that were recorded, came out of the cross. At that moment before the foundation of the world, time and Spirit met and there was an explosion. In the Spirit it is always now. He showed me this in the Spirit in a vision once. It's as if the Spirit stretched out the fabric of time to accommodate His girth. Hard to explain the things of the Spirit, Amen? Blessings to all........

Card that is one of the most awesome posts I have ever read. I believe there is equity in God whether you spent time on earth 4000 years ago or you live today.  We only observe the workings on this side of the grave but I know in my heart righteous recompense is made on the other side. God will be All in All. All serve at His pleasure whether it be Judas or Abraham, you or me.  All play their parts to bring the corporate man Christ to perfection. It is already done in God but still you and I must fulfill our part that we might see how it's done. This is life, Old Testament or New, and it sucks or it is glorious depending from where you view it.

Blessings,

Jack

"And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first."

[Kratos]

I, like others, have been spending time with former believers that have lost their faith and are now atheists who love nothing more than attacking Christians and blasheming the name and character of God. Most Christians believe that they are more spiritual than these people or more educated on the Bible, but I have not found it to be true. In fact, it is the epitome of pride to believe that you can think like they think and see the world as they see it and still keep your faith. I mean, what makes us think we are able to handle these things the same way that they did and remain in the faith?

I asked God what was the beginning of the track down this path that leaves to questioning God and His ways and He said that it is relying on the carnal mind. Which means looking at things as they appear in the visible world instead of looking what they reveal in the spirit world.

I have been called fearful for admonishing others to heed the warnings of our Father in the Word. I do not think that I am fearful, but I have known both the depths of God and the depths of Satan to my shame.

I will say it again. The OT records things that God did to ancient people for our learning as to spiritual truths. If you get stuck looking at what naturally happened instead of what it reveals in the invisible realm of the spirit, you are going down this same path to judging God and finally unbelief.

Does God hate every first born child and love every second born child"? No, but He does hate what is produced in the natural (that which is first is natural) and loves what is born of the spirit. Does God hate women or Caananites? No, He hates the unsubmitted soul (harlot woman) and the enemies of the Kingdom within us (sin, works of the flesh etc.)

I do not know how to say it clearer and that is my fault. Either take up the cause of how God hates all firstborn and all Egyptians and all Babylonians or see things below the surface. These were real people, but the spiritually minded do not see these things as they were omly temporal. The unseen truths that were being revealed of the battle within us over the woman and the enemies of our soul is seen by those who have learned not to read the Word by the carnal mind.

Once again, carnal mind is not an insult and has nothing to do with sin. It just means to mind the things of the flesh. Male and female are flesh traits no matter how you cut it. There is no such things in the Kingdom.

John

[Kept]

John

I dont know how to tell you this without it seeming to contradict you but I am stronger than ever in the spirit. I actually feel as if God has established me more lately, not less.

And this is important I just say this ok, not to you or to anyone imparticular but speaking for me what is really deep in my heart.

I love the spiritual word but until a person has a taste for it you must sit down where they sit, enjoy them, love them, spend time with them and if you do that you might just find they actually grasp much more then you thought and God will give you a way to commune

Paul said it so beautifully
to the jew I became as a jew, to the gentile...............

You and I see my time on that forum very different and I will stick with Gods view that I get

love ya

kept