death:an ending?

[thinktank]

But be honest with me Mr. T. You would like it to be a thousand years. And after that EDified popout


Nah I'd miss my competition, jokes wise and.. ok maybe not jokes wise...but my competition on...ok I'd just miss your pics.  :icon_joker:

[WhiteWings]

But be honest with me Mr. T. You would like it to be a thousand years. And after that EDified :popout:


Nah I'd miss my competition, jokes wise and.. ok maybe not jokes wise...but my competition on...ok I'd just miss your pics.  :icon_joker:

Mmm, sounds like someone secretly sneaked out of Sodom. :winkgrin:

:lazy:

[thinktank]

But be honest with me Mr. T. You would like it to be a thousand years. And after that EDified :popout:


Nah I'd miss my competition, jokes wise and.. ok maybe not jokes wise...but my competition on...ok I'd just miss your pics.  :icon_joker:

Mmm, sounds like someone secretly sneaked out of Sodom. :winkgrin:

:lazy:

Don't flatter yourself, I prefer black birds!  :grin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think we're all missing a deeper understanding of it, that has to be revealed by the Spirit yet, to put us on a equal par with the early church, IMO. Mainstream CANNOT have it right, as there is FEW there be that find it, and they are not the few, and I can't think of one thing they teach, as is, that is accurate. My  :2c: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

Amen to every word in the post above mine :ilu:

[willieH]

willieH:  Hi Lefein...  :cloud9:

As promised, here is my answer...

The HUMAN Son of Man... the emergent Son of GOD... The FIRSTBORN of many (other SONS of GOD)... FIRST to RISE from DEATH... FIRST to live WITHOUT SIN (the 10 commandments are not only the "law of the judgment of SIN", but are prophetic as well)

In short; Just another homo-sapien prophet, nothing divine (Being the person of God) about him, Adam as he should have been...?

FIRST --- You just read my answer (or did you?) and you saw my notation of Him as "just another homo-sapien"?  Please!

He is the PREEMINENT homo-sapien!  The KING of Kings... FIRST in all things...

As far as DIVINITY... ALL MEN are SONS of God, and therefore emergent of DIVINITY... Of themselves NO... but because of YHVH, ALL are "gods" -- Psalm 82:6

SECOND --- The WORD notes Him as the -- Last ADAM 1 Cor 15:45 -- His life was lived COMPLETELY from a SPIRITUAL perspective... until He arrived, man existed and LIVED in CARNALITY and a CARNAL perspective, which is WHY the Pharisees did not understand Him and WHY most men STILL do not understand Him.

ALL are emergent of the DIVINE... only ONE is GOD, that is YHVH... all others are emergent SONS of GOD.  There are NO other "gods" beside Him, or in cooperation with Him... but there are INNUMERABLE "gods" which are EMERGENT of YHVH, beginning with CHRIST.

So...Jesus is a deity?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deity

I have already answered this several times... but for those who have trouble... OF HIMSELF, ...JESUS CHRIST was not "a" diety... He was emergent of the ONLY DIETY, ...YHVH God, the Father of ALL SPIRITS -- Heb 12:9

Quit tiptoeing around it, Lefein...  :dontknow:

If you really wish to address this, please explain the Scriptures I have provided which CLEARLY note in the WORDS of YHVH, that there is NO "god" beside Him... and He (who knows everything) "knows NOT of ANY" others -- Isaiah 44:8 - Deut 4:35

JESUS is NOT divine of Himself... He is divine, because He is the Son of GOD... ALL shall, in the ETERNAL be "divine" for YHVH ...IS...  ALL in ALL in that setting...

So you're Divine?  You are a divinity, you are a deity?

Yes, ...because YHVH SAYS that I am -- Psalm 82:6 -- but that "divinity" is NOT of Myself, it is because I am emergent of Him who IS the only DIETY OF HIMSELF. 

It is HIS DOING, not mine... for like my Savior, I do Nothing OF Myself... I do as IS DIVINELY Foreknown of me, and my steps are ORDERED by that DIVINITY... Isaiah 46-10 -- Eph 1:11 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24

YHVH makes BOTH the vessel of HONOR as well as the vessel of DISHONOR, and we have no right to complain of the process -- Rom 9:21

How about you, Lefein?  Not that you shall answer, for it is your method to ignore, ...but are you a SON of God?  If you are offspring of GOD, then you are a "god"...  If you do not KNOW this... then you are ignorant of TRUTH which so names you.

Essentially, this IS the reason the Pharisees sought to KILL CHRIST... because He had named Himself as the OFFSPRING of YHVH... 

JESUS spoke both as a MAN, and from the position of YHVH during which He bore audibly and physically, the UNSEEN, and SILENT God of ALL men... (including CHRIST) which (with His own voice) noted YHVH as HIS GOD -- Mark 15:34 -- and which the Apostle Paul also noted under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- Eph 1:3

Is he merely human or not?  He can't be the Spirit of God, and his voice incarnate (in-fleshed) and not be God at the same time.

You are welcome to your common conclusions... the TRUTH however is UNCOMMON -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5   

The "god" of this world is ADVERSITY... and it is not my concern what you do or do not embrace. 

I write words and leave them to YHVH to use or not use as HE so chooses... If you disagree, then concerning YOU, He chooses not to use them, it is as simple as that.

The SPIRIT of YHVH dwelt in fullness IN Him... He was not that spirit... He was emergent, and SON of that Spirit... BEGOTTEN of the Holy ONE...

It is YHVH God which puts all things under His feet -- 1 Cor 15:28 -- and once this is COMPLETE... then so shall CHRIST be subject to the ONE which has done this... HIS GOD, ...YHVH

Emmanuel shall be called Everlasting Father, and Holy God.

Which is YHVH... GOD with us... made manifest in the Life of His SON who is the express IMAGE of His [invisible] person... which in LIFE was submitted entirely to Him, doing NOTHING OF HIMSELF.

You do not "see" this?  Fine with me.  :happygrin:

Never said He was an "angel"... He was a MAN... but we no longer KNOW Him after the flesh -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- we KNOW Him as the WORSHIP WORTHY, first SON of GOD... and we are to cast ourselves at His feet, for YHVH has called us to do so.

So I'll be worshiping you in Heaven because you'll be a worship worthy deity when you are glorified?  Just like Jesus...being the first fruits of us gods?

Maybe?  That is not my call, nor within my knowledge, ....for I make plain admission that I do not know that which shall take place in HEAVEN, do you?  :dontknow: ...if you DO, then let's hear the "play-by-play"  :drama:  :laughing7:

If you (or possibly I) in obstinance do not embrace the TRUTH in the moments it is presented to us, ...then we shall LOSE portions of who we shall be "in Heaven" -- 1 Cor 3:11-15 -- This is the decision of YHVH God, for HE is working ALL THINGS according to HIS WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- not according to your and my decisions and/or vanities.

We'll be equal heirs with Christ afterall, doesn't that include deityship and worship under this theological system you are presenting?

I am not presenting any... "theological system"... You as a person of religion, are in need of "labels", so you are about creation of them, for any and everything.  I believe GOD is IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN.

That does not mean that HE does not decide who is "captain" and who is a "lieutenant"... it means that He does not give special favor to anyone, treating every SON equally. 

The ONLY Son that was in perfect submission to Him was JESUS... and which is WHY He is noted KING of Kings, LORD of Lords, the CAPTAIN of our Salvation.  This was NOT accomplished by the MAN JESUS CHRIST, rather it was accomplished by the DIVINITY that was present WITHIN Him, guiding Him, strenghtening Him in every way guidance and strength was needed.

JESUS walked every step that was PROPHESIED of Him, which "prophecy" was the call of YHVH -- Isaiah 46:10 -- The DECLARATION of ALL things end to beginning, is now traveling beginning to end... part of which were the steps of JESUS CHRIST, which had not been taken, at the time they were DECLARED.

It is pretty obvious that GOD has decided there shall be leadership and followers in His Creation... If you are blind to this as well, then I cannot help you. There are so many examples of it, that one has to be literally BLIND not to see them.

God has set positionally, the lives of all, within the setting up of leadership in all phases of life, and those who contend against it, contend against Him -- Rom 13:1-5 -- Rom 9:18-21

And how is Christ worship worthy, if he is just a man?  Doesn't IEUE(YHVH) say that he won't share his glory with anyone, that he is a jealous God?

FIRST --- It is the ultimate ETERNAL destiny of all to be PERMEATED by YHVH.  This is HIS GLORY... to make KINGS of sinners -- Rom 9:22-23 -- in which are found, His GLORY, which ...IS... the revealing of His SONS, which ARE the RICHES of HIS GLORY. 

It does not need to be "shared"... it is an ETERNAL state of HOLINESS which we in this moment, as Earth bound beings cannot behold.  We ARE (in the Eternal) HIS GLORY...

SECOND --- He is not "JEALOUS" in the surface sense in which you percieve this word of YHVH.  For "JEALOUSY" is nothing but an emotion of INSECURITY and SELFISHNESS... GOD's "jealousy" is found within His longsuffering of the vessels of DISHONOR, which SIN and which suffer for it...  However SUFFERING is in the DIVINE process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10

Why is JESUS, KING? or LORD?  Because the FULLNESS of YHVH permeates Him.

Yet Thomas clearly calls him "My Lord, My God"  I think that's pretty bold and clear as to the exact identity of Jesus Christ.

Thomas beheld the RESURRECTED and GLORIFIED CHRIST... which was ASCENDED and no longer an EARTHLY man... but the GLORIFIED Son of GOD.  Permeated by YHVH... worthy of the address of "God and Lord"... No longer KNOWN after the FLESH (as a MAN) -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- rather KNOWN after the SPIRIT of YHVH which permeated Him...

As I have just said... CHRIST did NOTHING (here's the key) -- OF HIMSELF -- John 5:19  -- where He notes that He is the WAY, TRUTH and LIFE... is the MAN (which asked the cup to pass) manifesting the voice of the SPIRIT of YHVH... who marks the WAY of MEN -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Prov 21:1

The Spirit, and voice of The Father made manifest in flesh, sounds alot like Jesus being GOD to me...

As I have already noted, and you have already ignored... CHRIST spoke (using His "voice") as a MAN, as well as from the position of YHVH which dwelt within Him.

How about this, coming from the "voice" of CHRIST:

Mark 15:34 -- ...My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?

Does that sound like GOD talking to you?  Why would JESUS (if He were GOD and had OMNISCIENT capacity) ...ask this question?  Or request IF POSSIBLE, that the CUP PASS?  Put your ears on bro...

JESUS is the manifest HUMAN vehicle [Son] in which YHVH GOD visited the earth, and walked amongst men... via His SON, who was SENT and who was DIRECTED in all ways by YHVH...

...in short; Jesus is God...just like my character here, "Lefein" is ME.  Lefein and I are one.

I disagree with your (I believe quite faulty) analogy, for CHRIST and YHVH are 2 different persons.  Whereas, ...Your "character Lefein and I" are the same person.

I really don't get how you can say that Jesus isn't God, when Lefein is Me.

Just told you.  :happygrin:

This post of yours has been full of teeter tottering between saying that Jesus is, and isn't God/YHVH...

No, it has not.  You are examining my words, by using your own theologies as the measure.  If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you have already predetermined to cling to JESUS as being "god"... so what is the point in persisting in conversation with me about it?

Explain the verses in Isaiah, Hosea and Deuteronomy which I have already presented, that disgree with your notion.

The WORD and FATHER are not separate entites, ...the WORD is the spoken/written  REVELATION (son) of the HEART of God (father)...

But you're going a completely separate route by saying that Jesus wasn't YHVH at all...that's pretty separate if you ask me.

It is plain to see in the Scriptures that YHVH preceeded the MAN JESUS CHRIST. 

GOD is not MAN as the Scriptures note... JESUS was a MAN...

GOD cannot be TEMPTED as the Scriptures note... JESUS was TEMPTED...

GOD is EVERLASTING (ever living)... JESUS DIED...

You are the one trying to make them the same... I have amply shown this to be a fallacy. 

It is not my concern nor my agenda to change you or your thinking. Only to present REASON and TRUTH, and leave it for God to use or not use concerning YOU.  If He decides to NOT use my words concerning you, that is fine with me.

With one lip you say he's just a man, with the other you say he's God incarnate (GASP!)

Please quote where I have said that "He's God incarnate"... If you cannot, then you have just born a false witness.

The Spirit and Voice of God in a human vehicle = God incarnate.

NO... the VOICE of GOD is not limited by ANYTHING, or to any ONE man's AUDIBLE presentation... Has He ever SPOKEN "audibly" to you, Lefein? 

His VOICE is in the WORDS... not in the AUDIBILITY. 

The WORDS of YHVH God, can be and ARE SPOKEN vocally (not just by CHRIST, but are SPOKEN vocally by the Prophets and Apostles), WRITTEN, conveyed via DREAMS, VISIONS, and in PRAYER...

You live in the limitations of EARTHLY parameters and seek to confine GOD to those very same parameters.

See your words below:

JESUS is the manifest HUMAN vehicle [Son] in which YHVH GOD visited the earth,

TWO persons spoke from the "vehicle"... YHVH from DIVINE position... CHRIST from human position... I have already shown examples... you are welcome to continue to ignore them.  :winkgrin:

Jesus = God (YHVH GOD) incarnate (made manifest in human flesh - the vehicle)

Already addressed this, there is no Scripture which notes CHRIST as "God incarnate"... only theological conjecture... which DECIEVES MANY...

And is just nothing but redundance...

I need say no more.  The people rest your honour.

Oh, but you NO DOUBT, will!   :laughing7: 

So ...YOU... are the "people"?  All THREE of you?  :laughing7:

Judge: Court is adjurned for recess!

Resorting to a self to self conversation, areya?  Are YOU the Judge?  You must be, as YOU just ordered "the court" to "recess".  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[peacemaker]

JOHN 17:20-23 (NKJV)

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; that they all may be ONE, as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE just as we are ONE: I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me.

Creeds promote that of: "I believe," or "We believe."
But it is the ONE in SPIRIT which testifies to the truth.

[Beloved Servant]

1 John:

5:6 Jesus Christ is He who came with water and blood; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And it is the Spirit who gives testimony-- because the Spirit is the Truth.

5:7 For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

5:8 and there is complete agreement between these three.

5:9 If we accept the testimony of men, God's testimony is greater: for God's testimony consists of the things which He has testified about His Son.

God in Christ and Christ in us.
Hmmm... Sounds like the Spirit testifies to these two witnesses!

[Lefein]

He is the PREEMINENT homo-sapien!  The KING of Kings... FIRST in all things...

The ultimate Homo-sapien...is still just a Homo-sapien.

As far as DIVINITY... ALL MEN are SONS of God, and therefore emergent of DIVINITY... Of themselves NO... but because of YHVH, ALL are "gods" -- Psalm 82:6

So Jesus is just another god like you and me?

SECOND --- The WORD notes Him as the -- Last ADAM 1 Cor 15:45  -- His life was lived COMPLETELY from a SPIRITUAL perspective... until He arrived, man existed and LIVED in CARNALITY and a CARNAL perspective, which is WHY the Pharisees did not understand Him and WHY most men STILL do not understand Him.

Jesus is The Word, just to remind you.

I have already answered this several times... but for those who have trouble... OF HIMSELF, ...JESUS CHRIST was not "a" diety... He was emergent of the ONLY DIETY, ...YHVH God, the Father of ALL SPIRITS -- Heb 12:9

But you just said that you, I, and Jesus are gods.  Gods are deities, deities are deities because they are divine.

Is Jesus a deity or not?  If he is divine, he is a deity, if he isn't divine then he's not a god, if he is divine, then he must be God, because only God is divine.

Quit tiptoeing around it, Lefein...

If you think this is tip-toeing...

If you really wish to address this, please explain the Scriptures I have provided which CLEARLY note in the WORDS of YHVH, that there is NO "god" beside Him... and He (who knows everything) "knows NOT of ANY" others -- Isaiah 44:8 - Deut 4:35

Let me try and distill your posts here first...and see if I can get a list that I can comprehend.

God says that he alone is God, as stated by you in;

"I have provided which CLEARLY note in the WORDS of YHVH, that there is NO "god" beside Him"

You turn around to say then, that there are many gods...emergeant in him doesn't matter, because the boiled down to point is that you said there are many gods.

"but because of YHVH, ALL are "gods" -- Psalm 82:6"

Are you a god?

And so you answer that question...

Yes, ...

You just called yourself a deity, a god, a divine being.  I'll leave you to the masses. :)

How about you, Lefein?  Not that you shall answer, for it is your method to ignore, ...but are you a SON of God?  If you are offspring of GOD, then you are a "god"...  If you do not KNOW this... then you are ignorant of TRUTH which so names you.

If I am a 'god'...I never would claim it is my place to be worshiped.

That is the difference, I do not worship you...

"O' god WillieH, who art so holy, and divine, thou who art a divine being..."

>_>

Neither do I seek to worship me.  God alone is worthy of worship - Jesus is worshiped.

You are welcome to your common conclusions... the TRUTH however is UNCOMMON

The Truth, o divine willieH, is Truth.  The Truth is not about being complex or unknowable, even if it is indeed uncommon or (common dear friend, also means "not noble, of the peasantry").

Truth is this; a fish is a fish, a fish is not a bird.  Just because there is are flying fish, doesn't mean it is a half-fish, half-bird.

1=1, and blue=blue.

There is no "secret conspiracy" where blue is actually the left side of a homeless man's tonsil...

God is not ironic, God is not an idiot, God is not Confusion.  God is higher than us, but I'll say this dear friend, he is not "un-neccesarily complicated".

God you might say...is "Simply Elegant".

The Gospel is a simple message, God loves you, and saved you.  It comes from a simple God, who is not a simpleton, but who isn't a god of babbling or confusing concepts...He isn't a trickster.

He cannot be the Spirit of God, and his voice incarnate (in-fleshed) and not be God at the same time.

It is not a "common" conclusion that says that.  It is reasonable knowledge of Truth that any wise young babe or child can understand.

PS:  "The Truth is not Uncommon"  Not in the Bible.  I looked, didn't find it.  You're always telling me to stick straight to the word, especially when I say "God incarnate", so don't be a hypocrite and do the same thing you're always yelling me not to do.

You are welcome to your common conclusions... the TRUTH however is UNCOMMON

Is not said in the Bible, what-so-ever, not in those verses you just quoted anyway.  Dear friend, you have a beam in your eye.

Maybe?

Now that my friend, is tip-toeing.

Come now friend, let us reason together!  You say you are a god here on earth, being a son of God, and that so too am I a god!  Do the gods not require to be worshiped?  What is a god if he is not worshiped?  Wilt thou not bow down to me?  O' thou divine WillieH, if thou be a god indeed, and a living god at that, art thou not worth mine worship?  How mayest I bow to thee o' thou who art divine?

But yet, do I a god bow to thee?  For if thou art a god...and I am a god...why bow to thee...when it is I who art divine!

Why bow to Christ?  Is he not merely a man?  Is he not merely a god as you and I?  If he is but a begotten man, the offspring of God, and not God himself, being just a god, just a god like you and me, then he does not deserve my reverence, for just as he is a god, so too am I.

Now do you see the problem with that sort of mindset?

If indeed we be gods...it is required that Jesus be The God...or else the whole system of who worships who falls apart, considering that Jesus was and is worshiped in the Bible, and outside of it.

I am not presenting any... "theological system"... You as a person of religion, are in need of "labels", so you are about creation of them, for any and everything.  I believe GOD is IMPARTIAL to ALL MEN.

You don't know me, if you think I am a person of religion. :)

You don't know me, if you think I am a person about creating labels.

You don't know me, not in the least it seems.

The ONLY Son that was in perfect submission to Him was JESUS... and which is WHY He is noted KING of Kings, LORD of Lords, the CAPTAIN of our Salvation.  This was NOT accomplished by the MAN JESUS CHRIST, rather it was accomplished by the DIVINITY that was present WITHIN Him, guiding Him, strenghtening Him in every way guidance and strength was needed.

But according to you...it doesn't matter, I'm still a god...if I am a god, just like Jesus is...why do the angels not worship me?  If you are a god just like Jesus is, why do the angels not worship you?

Yet the angels worship Jesus; Jesus must be God incarnate.

It is pretty obvious that GOD has decided there shall be leadership and followers in His Creation... If you are blind to this as well, then I cannot help you. There are so many examples of it, that one has to be literally BLIND not to see them.

You're very hostile.  But since you don't like me "tip-toeing" I'll just come out and say what I believe about you.

I think you want to be a god so badly, that you've brought Jesus down to being a god, instead of being God, so you can be a god, so you can be a leader, so that you'll be a big shot in everyone's heavenly eyes, instead of God being God, and you being a humble servant.

FIRST --- It is the ultimate ETERNAL destiny of all to be PERMEATED by YHVH.  This is HIS GLORY... to make KINGS of sinners -- Rom 9:22-23 -- in which are found, His GLORY, which ...IS... the revealing of His SONS, which ARE the RICHES of HIS GLORY.

It does not need to be "shared"... it is an ETERNAL state of HOLINESS which we in this moment, as Earth bound beings cannot behold.  We ARE (in the Eternal) HIS GLORY...

SECOND --- He is not "JEALOUS" in the surface sense in which you percieve this word of YHVH.  For "JEALOUSY" is nothing but an emotion of INSECURITY and SELFISHNESS... GOD's "jealousy" is found within His longsuffering of the vessels of DISHONOR, which SIN and which suffer for it...  However SUFFERING is in the DIVINE process of PERFECTION -- Heb 2:10

You've created a theological system to explain away a simple fact.

God does not share his glory, he is a jealous God, he will not be worshiped along side any other god.  Jesus is worshiped, God is unchanging...Jesus must therefore be God.

Thomas beheld the RESURRECTED and GLORIFIED CHRIST... which was ASCENDED and no longer an EARTHLY man... but the GLORIFIED Son of GOD.  Permeated by YHVH... worthy of the address of "God and Lord"... No longer KNOWN after the FLESH (as a MAN) -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- rather KNOWN after the SPIRIT of YHVH which permeated Him...

Another theological system for a simple fact.

Thomas: My Lord, My God.

As I have already noted, and you have already ignored... CHRIST spoke (using His "voice") as a MAN, as well as from the position of YHVH which dwelt within Him.

See my posts about God = Light = Jesus = Light = God.

Does that sound like GOD talking to you?  Why would JESUS (if He were GOD and had OMNISCIENT capacity) ...ask this question?  Or request IF POSSIBLE, that the CUP PASS?  Put your ears on bro...

It came to my heart by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was referencing a prophecy in the psalms.

Psa 22:1

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

I disagree with your (I believe quite faulty) analogy, for CHRIST and YHVH are 2 different persons.  Whereas, ...Your "character Lefein and I" are the same person.

According to you it is faulty.  But that is (I believe) because you are so blind to the truth that Jesus is God.

No, it has not.  You are examining my words, by using your own theologies as the measure.  If you are honest with yourself, you will admit that you have already predetermined to cling to JESUS as being "god"... so what is the point in persisting in conversation with me about it?

Explain the verses in Isaiah, Hosea and Deuteronomy which I have already presented, that disgree with your notion.

I cling to Truth friend.

The WORD and FATHER are not separate entites, ...the WORD is the spoken/written  REVELATION (son) of the HEART of God (father)...

The Word = Jesus

You said that The Word, and The Father are not separate entities.

Then you turn around and say:

for CHRIST and YHVH are 2 different persons.  Whereas, ...Your "character Lefein and I" are the same person.

...Dear friend, based on this I can only conclude that you are a man of a divided mind, and wishy washy in your theology.

You're teeter tottering.  You are not on a solid foundation.  You have built your house on sand.  It is about to crumble, unless you repent and build it on The Rock - Jesus Christ, God!

It is not my concern nor my agenda to change you or your thinking. Only to present REASON and TRUTH, and leave it for God to use or not use concerning YOU.  If He decides to NOT use my words concerning you, that is fine with me.

Your reason and truth is flawed in light of the God of Reason, and Truth.

You have teeter tottered, and wish-washed.

Your theology is a divided house built on sand...Double shall be its fall.

Please quote where I have said that "He's God incarnate"... If you cannot, then you have just born a false witness.

The WORD and FATHER are not separate entites, ...the WORD is the spoken/written  REVELATION (son) of the HEART of God (father)...

for CHRIST and YHVH are 2 different persons.  Whereas, ...Your "character Lefein and I" are the same person.

There you go, a false witness I am not.

NO... the VOICE of GOD is not limited by ANYTHING, or to any ONE man's AUDIBLE presentation... Has He ever SPOKEN "audibly" to you, Lefein?

Actually, yes he has.

You live in the limitations of EARTHLY parameters and seek to confine GOD to those very same parameters.

This is a lie.  I believe that Jesus is God, that's about as high as you can get when it comes to tearing down limitations.  You believe in an overly complicated theological system of Jesus being this, that, other, and more...except God.  A divided house, built on sand, built on your own interpretations of scripture, built (I suspect) on your own emotional need to be a leader, a somebody, a king, a god.

TWO persons spoke from the "vehicle"... YHVH from DIVINE position... CHRIST from human position... I have already shown examples... you are welcome to continue to ignore them/

Divided house...

And by the way, I've shown numerous examples that show that Jesus = God.  So has Molly by the way.

Already addressed this, there is no Scripture which notes CHRIST as "God incarnate"... only theological conjecture... which DECIEVES MANY...

Conjecture like yours, and theological systems that complicate the issue like yours, and theological systems that decieve many...like yours.

Deceptions like New Age, the basic tenant of New Age theology is thus;

"Everyone is divine, everyone is God, or a god; everyone is divine - a deity."

And here is what they think of Jesus, which echos awfully too familiar with yours.

"Jesus was just a good man, who obtained - attained - some how by any means gained - oneness with his divine nature, and power; he ascended, resurrected, or evolved.  He is a just another god, another spiritual teacher, another ascended guru."

As for scripture...

See my debate with Whitewings a few posts back - there are many verses there that support Jesus = God.  See Molly's posts as well.

Behold!  If thou art a god...put some effort into it...search them out yourself, do you not have The Law and The Prophets thou divine majesty?

Do note, I only challenge your divinity, because you have challenged the Godhead.  Not the scripture's verses that say 'gods'.  I believe that if we are to be gods, there is yet The One God, who is Jesus, whom alone deserves worship.

[Beloved Servant]

When Jesus was on the cross, could He have been speaking to us;
"My Family, My Family, why has thou forsaken me?"

and

For the joy set before Him He endured the cross, so, perhaps the cup that He prayed could pass Him by was not the cross at all but rather the cup of His humanity.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Some thoughts to consider.....Jesus said, paraphrasing, "Why callest me good, there is none good but the Father."

God is a Spirit, and His Son can be no less than what He is, which was a Holy Spirit clothed in a robe of flesh. Every seed bears fruit after it's own kind, and the Father's kind/seed is SPIRIT.

Jesus, who, as a man, WAS this Spirit, MADE flesh. This is why they said hereafter we'll not know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Why? Because the flesh robe was rent, as it had fulfilled it's purpose in making the invisible God, THE FATHER, visible.

God was IN CHRIST (the Spirit) reconciling all men unto Himself. Which is why the Son WHO IS SPIRIT, said, "When you've seen ME (the Spirit in the robe of flesh), you've seen the Father."

Why? Because the Son who is Spirit, is the express image of His person, and flesh and blood (not even Jesus's) can reveal this to you "Peter", but only My Father, which is in heaven. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Lefein]

A small warning...I'm going to allow myself to get a wee bit excited.

Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

GOD - INCARNATE!

YEAAAAH!

:bgdance:

In the Latin Vulgate translation of it: Timothy 3:15-16

ei conversari quae est ecclesia Dei vivi columna et firmamentum veritatis et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria

Manifestatum est in carne!

God manifested Incarnate!

[Beloved Servant]

Why are you so happy, Lefein?

[Lefein]

Because WillieH was pretty much spending half his eon here trying to tear my witness as a student of the Bible apart, and trying to tear down the validity of my beliefs (and if he wasn't he sure made it look like he was!) because the phrase "God incarnate" isn't "in the Bible".

Yet, it is thus there.  God was manifest in the flesh - which in the Latin Vulgate is written: Manifestatum est in carne.  In-carne = Incarnate

[Beloved Servant]

Amen,
Without Jesus pouring out His Holy Spirit we are just dust.

His side was pierced so we could get back in.

[jabcat]

Can we all agree that Jesus is God's Son, and the Savior of the world?  Further, please consider this.  At the very basic level, if someone is someone else's son, they are of the same substance of the Father.  My own son has my spit, my blood, my skin.

Jesus called the Father His God, but as I understand, that doesn't mean Jesus isn't also Divine.  He's the Son OF THE Father - a part of Him - not just an acquaintance of the Father.  Again, can that bridge any gaps for anyone and get the focus back on Who He is - the Savior?  God bless.

:thumbsup:

Thanks micah for helping with gap bridging  :happygrin:, and for seeing this perspective.   :2thumbs:

[Lefein]

And!

1st Timothy 3:16 also says:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

I'll let The Word answer your post WillieH:

You are welcome to your common conclusions... the TRUTH however is UNCOMMON

[Molly]

A small warning...I'm going to allow myself to get a wee bit excited.

Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

GOD - INCARNATE!

YEAAAAH!

:bgdance:

In the Latin Vulgate translation of it: Timothy 3:15-16

ei conversari quae est ecclesia Dei vivi columna et firmamentum veritatis et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria

Manifestatum est in carne!

God manifested Incarnate!

Nice. :thumbsup:

That's why the Catholics use that phrase.  They're reading Latin.

[peacemaker]

Latin Vulgate translation?    :mblush:

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

[Lefein]

The Latin Vulgate isn't invalid just because of its "eternal" issue, friend.  Please don't blush at it. :)

God incarnate, is indeed in the Bible - even if it is a translation in Latin, from which most of our modern bibles derive themselves anyway. :p

Like the KJV, and its variations.

Manifestatum est in carne = Ephanerothe en sarki:  They both say, in Latin, and in Greek respectively - God manifested in flesh.

Even the original Greek says that God was manifested in the flesh; "God incarnate".  And as far as what we mortally have, the original Greek is as accurate a Bible as you can get.

It is my joy, that God showed me a verse that says indeed that He came incarnate, that Jesus is God incarnate.

:boyheart:

[Molly]

The Latin Vulgate isn't invalid just because of its "eternal" issue, friend.  Please don't blush at it. :)

God incarnate, is indeed in the Bible - even if it is a translation in Latin, from which most of our modern bibles derive themselves anyway. :p

Like the KJV, and its variations.

Manifestatum est in carne = Ephanerothe en sarki:  They both say, in Latin, and in Greek respectively - God manifested in flesh.

Even the original Greek says that God was manifested in the flesh; "God incarnate".  And as far as what we mortally have, the original Greek is as accurate a Bible as you can get.

God was manifest in the flesh.  That's what it says.  :thumbsup:

Otherwise stated as The Word became flesh...

[Lefein]

Praise Jesus Molly!  Praise God incarnate!

Dance with me with great joy!  :bgdance:

[Molly]

Praise Jesus Molly!  Praise God incarnate!

Dance with me with great joy!  :bgdance:

I know. :bigGrin: :Sparkletooth:


Hebrews 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Lefein...  :winkgrin:

Because willieH was pretty much spending half his eon here trying to tear my witness as a student of the Bible apart, and trying to tear down the validity of my beliefs (and if he wasn't he sure made it look like he was!) because the phrase "God incarnate" isn't "in the Bible".

Yet, it is thus there.  God was manifest in the flesh - which in the Latin Vulgate is written: Manifestatum est in carne.  In-carne = Incarnate

:Yeahright:  And YOU are pretty much spending equal time answering (see the length of your last post to me)...   :sigh::

FIRST --- I am not seeking to "tear down" anyone.  If YOU feel "torn down" then it is a spiritual dealing within... 

The truth is that MANY believe as do you... and resultingly, MANY are decieved by those beliefs... and taught by such as YOURSELF...

When are you going to address the verses in Isaiah, Hosea & Deuteronomy?  Oh yeah...  I forgot, ...because, you can't! :nod:  So far you have ignored them in 3 or 4 posts...

Scriptures where YHVH HIMSELF said there is NO GOD beside "ME" (not "us")... And the ALL KNOWING God, said the He KNOWS NOT any other "god" beside HIMSELF (not OURSELVES)...  :dontknow:

If that tears down anything... it tears down the STRONGHOLD of false teaching...  :dontknow:

Your beliefs do not intimidate me... I have discussed this issue with many highly educated trinitarians for many years... and NO "trinitarian" has proven the trinity to date... for it does not exist... in the WORD or otherwise.

SECOND --- The 4th century "Latin Vulgate" is an interpretative translations of the WORD IN LATIN... it is not (just as the KJV is NOT), the end-all of correct translation of those words.  It is as subject to ERROR as is any other translation!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate

I find it interesting that you had scrape & scratch, to look outside the ENGLISH language to find something that resembles your beliefs...   Even then, ...if you know anything at all about language, you are aware that ALL language is ever changing and morphing, and when ANY language is translated, it does not allow transferring one WORD in HEBREW or GREEK for another WORD in ENGLISH or LATIN = "this means that"...

Which is why so many english words are often shown in lexicons as possible meanings of HEBREW or GREEK words... rarely definite (this=that) in many if not MOST cases...  :dontknow:

And which is also why even in ENGLISH, there are disagreements one trans to the other.

Stick with what you think you know Lefein... I have no problem with anything you wish to believe...  :mnah: 

That I believe there is ONE GOD, is Scriptural... That you believe there are THREE GODS in ONE... is not.

Even the 1st commandment dispells this myth...

Ex 20:2-3 --- "I [not we] am YHVH thy GOD [not "gods"] which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, ...thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS" [plural] before ...ME... [not US]

...willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

God was manifest in the flesh.  That's what it says.  :thumbsup:

Otherwise stated as The Word became flesh...

I think the biggest problem lies in the the individual perception of the WORD of GOD.

What is the WORD?  Is the WORD a "man"... or is the WORD a SPIRIT? 

The MAN (Son of man) JESUS CHRIST was not the WORD for He DID NOTHING of Himself -- John 5:19 and SPOKE NOTHING of Himself -- John 14:10 -- by His own admission.

If indeed He (of Himself) was DOING the deeds He did and SPEAKING of Himself... then it could be claimed that HE is GOD... but He did NOT DO or SAY, anything OF HIMSELF... as pointed out by the Scriptures I just noted.

He was SON of the SPIRIT, which IS the WORD... And the SON declared obediently in visible/audible terms, that WORD in the actions and behaviors and SPEECH of His flesh, thereby MANIFESTING the WORD IN His flesh, via obedience to the WORD within, YHVH. 

He was a SEPARATE being from the Father which dwelt in Him... just as YOU and I are separate persons from YHVH, Yet He in measure, GOD LIVES in us... and DECLARES (manifests) His presence within our works...

When I teach a child that 2+2=4 and they go to school, and get it right on a test, the teaching is MANIFEST in the test.  2+2=4 does not BECOME the TEST, nor does the the teaching BECOME the equation...  The equation was prior to the TEST and the TEACHING.

The word translated "MANIFEST" -- #G5319 - PHANEROO -- in 1 Tim 3:16 means to DECLARE, or RENDER APPARENT, ...it does not mean, "BECOME"... Look it up!

If this word meant "became" ...then it would've been translated BECAME... however it was not.

The MAN JESUS CHRIST, "declared" the DIVINITY of YHVH which dwelt IN Him... and DID NOTHING of Himself...

If JESUS were GOD, why was HE SENT? Why didn't HE send the Father?  Or the Holy Spirit to die?   

Who decided that HE would DIE?  Was it not the ONE which WITHDREW from Him?  And WHO might that be?  After all, He requested the "CUP" pass... and it DID NOT... why?  And if JESUS was GOD, then WHO withdrew from Him?

Why did He do NOTHING OF HIMSELF?  Was He a puppet?  NO... was He a robot?  NO... He was a MAN, the FIRST and preeminent and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the ONLY GOD, YHVH... which was made flesh, and obeyed via the POWER of the SPIRIT of GOD within... which DIRECTED His every WORD and DOING.

This SAME procedure is to avail in those who follow Him...  They (we) are to DO as did HE... follow the Father... and thereby DECLARE to the world, His presence IN US... by the actions forthcoming FROM us... which are DONE of HIM in us, not of ourselves -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 10:23 -- THE WAY that YHVH provides each one of us, is HIS WAY for us... we are completely FORKNOWN... and do as HIS foreknowledge states we would END to BEGINNING to END.

Believe what you shall...

...willieH  :cloud9: