Interesting passage

[Quaesitor]

Immersion in fire.

1Co 3:12-13  Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,  (13)  each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."

Everything that is not of precious stones or metal will burn.

Interesting.

[eaglesway]

:cloud9: Jesus said He baptized with fire. To baptize is to consume, completely cover. Being baptized with water is being baptized into the likeness of the His death; being baptized with fire is being baptized into the likeness of His life, which is Spirit. One is laying down, as if in a grave, one is standing up, as if resurrected. Blessings....

Oh Yeah!

[Cardinal]

 :laughing7:

[Nathan]

Immersion in fire.

1Co 3:12-13  Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,  (13)  each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."

Everything that is not of precious stones or metal will burn.

Interesting.

This doesn't get preached much in your traditional churches . . . it's too clear that the builder survives the fire.

[Nathan]

I didn't read the quoted verse clear through, I thought the most important piece to it was there, but it's not.  Whoever originally posted it, left off the last important piece. 

15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I really like what this part says . . .
each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident.

Traditions have said that this is pertaining to the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT . .. like that's a terrible thing.  That's supposedly when we all stand up before the world and God hangs out our dirty laundry for everyone to see.  What part of "I will cast your sins as far as the east is from the west" don't they understand?

It's not about the day that ends all other days, it's about Christ  ..the Day . . .being revealed "in" us by the Father because of our relationship with the SON.  Illumination is intimate "knowing".  Not knowing natural knowledge, but experiencing Truth.  Huge difference.  One puffs up egos, the other ignites freedom.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Nathan,

From one scarred Hand to the Other

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_J34QyY0Pk

[micah7:9]

Amen Nathan

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan, the Day declares it..... :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I dunno.....there are some verses that indicate that for some, The Day is gonna be a lil hard on the eyes at first ;o)

[Nathan]

Oh yes, for those who've been so accustomed to walking according to "their version" of light, there's going to be a lot of squinting, probably some major head-aches as they are exposed to true light . . .I say "they" but that includes me as well.  Everything is a process, none have fully "arrived" as we continue our life-experiences pursuing the Father's light as he brings us into his life.

[eaglesway]

I agree.... but I was speaking of those who will cry out to the rocks and the caves hide us from the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. Those who serve the darkness willingly and unto whom everyone else is just prey.

[Nathan]

Are you saying the Father can't reach them?  That he can't transform them because they want to hide?  I'm not getting your point . . . might be getting late . . .I dunno.

[eaglesway]

No :o) I wasnt saying God can't reach them, I am saying that they have to be in subjection to His love before they can rejoice....Also

I am saying that I believe the light/fire of God consuming the darkness/rebellion of adversaries may be a difficult experience to pass through....saved as passing through flames.

The many references in the scriptures to the coming wrath (Gr.orge) can't all be toothless cliches (as I see it). Better to pluck out your eye, so to speak. Wailing and gnashing of teeth..... All Jesus' descriptive expressions.

The sons of disobedience (natural men) are not being transformed now because they are hiding from His presence and the light of His glory. We are being transformed now because we embrace it, if we continue steadfast until His appearing. At some point they will be able to hide no longer, being found in the presence of God without any hiding places (beginning at the GWT perhaps, Rom 2). It may be more difficult than just a passing of the mist so to speak. I think there is something to fear, and the attempt to remove the fear of the judgment to come for the wicked is not, in my mind, consistent with the scriptures.

In that last post, I was just making a distinction between those who have there "version" of the light(saved but building wood, hay and stubble)- and those who just plain hate all the versions, and deny God, and are the predatory wicked of this age.

But I did write all that in detail in an earlier post in the thread, so I don't want to repeat it here. Grace andPeace, John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: As a sidenote, He showed me the rocks they hide under is a tombstone/stone to roll away/carnal mind, and the caves are their own stony hearts/Eves, from which they are refusing or are in ignorance of, letting Him resurrect up out of them. So then, they are hiding NOW, from the Day. My  :2c: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

Yes, I agree.... they are hiding from Him NOW and the rocks and caves are proverbial hiding places. There will be no place to hide when the dead awake into the appearing of the Lord. In His presence when He appears- they will be taken by the "thief", death, into the DAY. The DAY will not take us like a thief because we are children of light and the day has dawned in our hearts. We will rejoice at His appearing (whether as awaking from sleep or as alive and remaining) and are already rejoicing as the dawn increases toward full noon. That is why we watch and wait- no one knows the day or the hour. Those who sleep, sleep in the dark..... Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you. :o)

[Quaesitor]

But why wouldn't the judgement be NOW?
As I see it, people who are not attached to Jesus are DEAD?
Isn't the wage of sin death?
So as long as one sins he is dead; all sins except those who are in Christ (in Christ I do not sin but when I do sin I'm in the flesh)
The flesh dies and go into the grave so no resurrected man can sin, so no resurrected man can be DEAD.
Which means that everyone who will be resurrected will sin no more and to that effect have life.
To me, it appears that the judgement is NOW since there can be no judgement after because the wage has been paid.
Is there something I do not see?

[eaglesway]

I have no problem with the idea that the judgment is now. I believe it is . This is the judgment that has come into the world, that the Light has come and men have loved darkness rather than light.

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.


However, the Word also seems to indicate a further outworking, or perhaps you might say a continuing manifestation, of this judgment that is occurs at a later point in time. The prophets, Jesus, and every apostle refer to it. I can't see the language as all being symbolic when I read it in context, so as Paul said to Timothy- Some mens sins go before them into judgement, others sins will follow after(1 Tim 5:24).

I can't see forcing the words Now & Today( two of my  favorite words) to require the invention of an entirely new paradigm of speech that supersedes the language of Jesus and the apostles who also spoke both judgment now and of the judgment to come.

Therefore, while in the body in this present evil age we speak of what was, what is and what will be, and all of them are real, and none of them negates the other.

For example:

  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
 
  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
(Joh 5:24-29)

  Jesus speaks of judgment suspended for believers ALREADY, IN THE NOW because they have passed from death unto life. This is our salvation as the Bride and Body and eclessia of God.

The hour is coming AND now is- the dead shall hear....and live. Future and present combined......yoked together, neither complete without the other. Those who hear in this hour will live, having passed from death unto life, having been translated from darkness into light and destined to awaken from their sleep in the moment and twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

Then there is "an hour that is coming"(notice- no and now is. Jesus speaks here of the resurrection of the dead and the end of the age- and of judgment to come.


Joh 3:19  "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

This refers to the reason for judgment from the beginning, as does Romans 1:18-20

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness(love darkness), because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them(light). For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse(judgment).
(Rom 1:18-20)





.....because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:31)


on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:16)

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he(Jesus) said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Of course, you could say there has always been the light of day.... and you would be right. Today is the Day, if you are in it, abiding in the light. And is The DAY(eternal) swallowing the Night(temporal)?   Yes...it certainly is. But has it swallowed it yet? No, it has not- it is progressing through the ages, seasons, generations, and times.An administration suitable to the fulness of time, the summing up of all things in Christ. We do not yet see all things subjected unto Him.

  Did Jesus and the apostles create a new language to eliminate all references to the future outworking of the Father's plan through time? No, they did not! Are we so sophisticated that we will render all of that language according to some greater understanding than they possessed? I don't think so.

There are places where the Logos speaks by way of parable and there are places where he speaks by teaching and a disciple needs to kno the difference. Certainly, it is easy to deny the simple language of scripture by saying we have a more spiritual understanding- but saying it doesn't make it so :o).

I think it is simpler (and IMO truer) to say... "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old." Mt 13:52

[Quaesitor]

I think I understand your point but couldn't they be talking about the judgement that is always now because since Paul there has been tons of judgement and after us there will be a lot again until the day God is finished? So they were forced to use that language so it could be understood as continuing?

This comes from an understanding (which may be wrong) of a point Willie made a couple of times already about us being IN time and thus misunderstanding what is eternal as always now.

It may not be about a coming judgement but about judgement being made manifest.

[eaglesway]

Yes, I agree with that.... distinction....as a way of looking at it which I have no problem with, but... I don't think the apostles were forced to use certain words for the ignorance of others. IMO They spoke in the Logos, as Peter says "holy men moved of God spoke by the Spirit". I have the utmost respect for Willie and have gleaned many good things from his posts. But we don t see things alike on this point. Certainly I do agree that it will be the outworking of the judgment that is already in the Now,  Peace, John

[Quaesitor]

But wasn't it the same LOGOS which let the men of Israel divorce their women because of their hard hearts?
Couldn't it be that some things said by Paul is milk because he was speaking to babies?
Not making it untrue but incomplete without the fuller revelation of one who has matured.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Eaglesway, when I said the judgment was NOW, I didn't mean it to negate the future or rather ongoing judgment. When I say "now", for me it is not a instance of time, but rather of time-lessness of the Spirit, in which it is always NOW. Ah, the limitations of this medium..... :laughing7: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

But wasn't it the same LOGOS which let the men of Israel divorce their women because of their hard hearts?
Couldn't it be that some things said by Paul is milk because he was speaking to babies?
Not making it untrue but incomplete without the fuller revelation of one who has matured.

Yes actually, this is near  my main point (alas, the limitations of this medium ;o), as you stated Not untrue, but incomplete. Yet as I said once before.... we ought not treat it as it it were untrue then, even if we are seeing more deeply than another. Maturity cannot be force fed. The wisdom that is spoken among the mature is understood implicitly by the Spirit, "for it is the Spirit that searches even the deep things of God". But at no point, in my opinion, have we received in this age a revelation that makes the words of Christ and the apostles obsolete.
If we lose contact with ANY of the real living word it is a loss to the "whole counsel of God" that was delivered "once and for all" to the saints. Within the scope of that, I still feel it is an error to say authoritatively the judgment of the wicked is all complete in the NOW(if Now means no future outworking in time after this age), because the ages are as yet unfulfilled, and we see what is to come through a glass darkly. I personally don't think the adversaries will all be subjected for two or more ages to come. I agree that all the judgments of God are complete in the mind of God and finished in Christ, and we rest in that completion and enter the finished work the closer we get to maturity. By that definition of NOW God is still fulfilling these things in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times", so there is still judgment to come IMO.

The Logos is as complete a revelation as we will get in this age.  The whole matrix of the mystery of God is woven through it. Therefore, as I said before.... there is no fault in speaking in the language of the apostles and prophets without continually having to address these distinctions - they obviously understood such distinctions... they are the foundation stones, Christ being the chief cornerstone. We are being built upon them.

Jesus defined the limitations of the Logos under the law of Moses just as you quoted '...because of the hardness of your hearts". This incompletion was fulfilled "in Christ" and the "one new man".... "I will put my spirit in them and give them a new heart... I will take away their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh". This is the "glorious liberty of the sons of God" and the whole creation eagerly awaits it, but it will take some time yet ;o)

[Beloved Servant]

Eaglesway,
throughout the Scriptures the Lord seems fond of doing things suddenly!

Come quick Lord Jesus!