Tentmaker Forum

Jeremiah 11

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "Listen to the terms of this covenant and tell them to the people of Judah and to those who live in Jerusalem. 3 Tell them that this is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Cursed is the man who does not obey the terms of this covenant- 4 the terms I commanded your forefathers when I brought them out of Egypt, out of the iron-smelting furnace.' I said, 'Obey me and do everything I command you, and you will be my people, and I will be your God. 5 Then I will fulfill the oath I swore to your forefathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey'-the land you possess today."

The iron-smelting furnace was bondage in Egypt. It did not destroy/torment Israel but sure molded them as God wanted them to be.
It is a use of the fire/burning image and again in a molding/purifying use.

Very awesome verses.


John Van Tuyl wrote a very edifying treatment on this topic, here is the link to an excellent excerpt

http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/book_excerpt.aspx?bookid=45166 (http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/book_excerpt.aspx?bookid=45166)

sigler.org has a link to a pdf of the book, which is titled "Salted With Fire"

Nice excerpt, too bad lighthouse library doesn't have the book.

27 pages (http://sigler.org/kingdom/Salted_With_Fire.pdf)

Thank you

 :thumbsup: Very cool, I hadn't picked up on that before Quaesitor!
Also starting to read that book and it's wonderful.  :cloud9:

There's so much richess in Jeremiah, I love it.

More coming, even better:

Deu 4:20  And you hath Jehovah taken, and He is bringing you out from the iron furnace from Egypt, to be to Him for a people an inheritance, as at this day.


Esa 48:10  Lo, I have refined thee, and not with silver, I have chosen thee in a furnace of affliction.

More showing that fire is indeed a symbolism of purification and not of tormenting.

This came to me as we have been discussing literal vs spiritual of the scriptures, so when I looked at the lake of fire scripture in the book of revelation, one thing is that scripture is talking about the spirit so it makes sense to keep it spiritual so that even the fire is also spiritual.

I mean the scripture talks about people who were in hell, taken out to stand before the great white throne room. Since flesh and blood cannot live to see God, then it must be talking about a spiritual nature and cannot be flesh and blood, though I do not say that that revelation scripture doesnt mean something else, but if we take that scripture to be literal, and that there is a great white throne room and people are brought up out of hell and the sea, hell being the physical dead, and the sea being the spiritually dead but yet alive on earth remnant of humanity, then its logical to conclude that if the people be spiritual and not flesh and blood then so be the lake of fire be spiritual and not a typical earthly fire and brimstone. The only other conclusion is that God turns the people into flesh and blood after judging them in heaven and those who's name are not written in the lambs book of life and casts them into a lake of fire upon the earth to destroy them.

I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

Quote from: shawn on September 21, 2010, 05:36:17 AM
I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace

Revelation 20:14 
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? after this event occured

21And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea

A new heaven and new earth and no sea. During Rev 20:14, there was no earth and no heaven and people brought out of hell.

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2010, 05:44:59 AM
wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

I think that is one way to look at that passage.  I try to look at these scriptures through the lens of UR.  There is no doubt that the Bible speaks about refining fire.  But, there also appear to be references to refuge, waste, weeds being thrown into a fire.  In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil.  Is it possible that this is a refining fire...yes.  But, I do find it odd symbolic language to use weeds as a comparison to the sons of the devil.  A weed can not be made alive again...nor ever have any other use except for feeding a fire...then being consummed.

Quote from: thinktank on September 21, 2010, 06:01:31 AM

Quote from: shawn on September 21, 2010, 05:36:17 AM
I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

You and I see this topic very differently.  I can see how death can be defeated and still people have died.  Death no longer has power to kill.  I believe we already debated this in another thread.

Noting TT's post, I could also consider the end of the age to mean the destruction and judgment of 70 AD - the official end of temple worship, ongoing sacrifice, etc.  I believe Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to the Jewish nation and their religious leaders - "I came not except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel".

Shawn, as far as this;  "In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil."  That's why I say if it were me as a son of the devil, I could be thrown in, so that things could be taken out, and I'd be transformed.   But really, I also personally think the process is tied into bringing a person to repentance - turning from, and turning to...Him;  believing, confessing, thus cleansing/purifying.  If we can think of the fire as 'being in His direct Presence', under His conviction as never before in this life - rather than a literal fire - then I would think yes, it would be the person standing before Him (thrown into the fire).  

Through the Holy Spirit, we are certainly brought into His (fiery) presence in this life to be disciplined as sons and children. Just a thought, and it helps me to write them out.  James.

Quote from: thinktank on September 21, 2010, 06:01:31 AM

Quote from: shawn on September 21, 2010, 05:36:17 AM
I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

This says the end of the age, so it means this age. The millenium peace is another age, where the devil the sower is chained for a thousand years, so if God resurects these tares and blesses them to become wheat, to grow into wheat as they mature, without the devil to influence them for their father the devil no longer can sow lies into their souls and deceive them.

The lake of fire happens after the millenium, so could be refered to as the sixth age.

1st age Adam to Noah
2nd age Noah to Moses
3 age Moses- Israel covenant
4 age coming of Messiah
5th age The return of the messiah- The goodman returns after a long journey to destroy the tares and gather the wheat, then 1000 year peace of restoration, begining with Abraham Issac and Jacob
6 th age New Jerusalem - God is all in all and every enemy destroyed including death, if death is destroyed in the lake of fire after 1000 millenium peace

Revelation 20:14 
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

, why does God threaten people to cast them into the lake of fire? after this event occured

21And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea

A new heaven and new earth and no sea. During Rev 20:14, there was no earth and no heaven and people brought out of hell.

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If this means everlasting destruction, then death has not been defeated, but if it means purification then it means they are not being destroyed, if they are being tormented forever, then it means Gods promises of everlasting mercy and his promise of his wrath shall not remain forever becomes void.
This is the greatest proof for me personally that people are not eternally destroyed, but it means reevaluating the hundreds of scriptures that talk about everlasting destruction.
:2c:

Biggest problem with the vision in the above is the chronology assigned to the work of GOD... who has no chronology, ...and which is WHY He is the END and the BEGINNING -- Rev 1:8 -- and which is why He noted the entirety of this realm from END to BEGINNING, ...NOT... beginning to end.

Also, to begin with, the "millennium" is an UNBIBLICAL term, as well as an inobservance of SYMBOLIC text, which is then alluded to as LITERAL. :mnah:

The term "lake of FIRE" is SYMBOLIC, and symbolizes the entirety of the experience of this realm, in which DEATH and the GRAVE (hades) were cast...

As well as the FIRE, ...in which CHRIST was tried -- Rev 3:18 -- and in which we are tried -- Mark 9:49 -- 1 Pet 1:7 -- 1 Pet 4:12

ALL things find themselves WITHIN God -- For He PERMEATES the Universe -- Psalm 139:8 -- Acts 17:28 -- and who IS (not "will be") a consuming FIRE -- Heb 12:29

Quote from: willieH on September 21, 2010, 08:11:20 AM
ALL things find themselves WITHIN God -- For He PERMEATES the Universe -- Psalm 139:8 -- Acts 17:28 -- and who IS (not "will be") a consuming FIRE -- Heb 12:29

...willieH  :winkgrin:

:thumbsup:

Quote from: shawn on September 21, 2010, 05:36:17 AM
I think fire has more than one symbolic reference in the Bible.  Yeast has some symbolism of evil in scripture but it's also used to symbolize growth.  In Matthew 13 I'm not sure I can see a cleansing, purifying fire in this passage.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

----------------------

Weeds would be an odd reference for symbolizing a refinement fire.  You don't throw weeds into the fire in order for it to come out wheat.  You throw weeds into the fire for it to be destroyed.

Difficult. Maybe the parable of wheat and chaff can be of some help. It's also about harvest. At first it may seem the parable is about 2 types of people. But in reality wheat and chaff is the same plant. And so the same people.
So maybe the field is not about mankind but just one person...?

Quote from: shawn on September 21, 2010, 06:06:08 AM

Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2010, 05:44:59 AM
wood, hay, stubble - in us?  And if I'm "one who is doing evil", then I need to be tossed into that fire so that can be [spiritually] burned out of me?  

Is God the ultimate fire, His direct Presence?  "Our God is a Consuming Fire".

Things I personally wonder.

I think that is one way to look at that passage.  I try to look at these scriptures through the lens of UR.  There is no doubt that the Bible speaks about refining fire.  But, there also appear to be references to refuge, waste, weeds being thrown into a fire.  In this particular passage it notes people...not personality traits, works, evil doings, evil thinking but the sons of the devil.  Is it possible that this is a refining fire...yes.  But, I do find it odd symbolic language to use weeds as a comparison to the sons of the devil.  A weed can not be made alive again...nor ever have any other use except for feeding a fire...then being consummed.

A weed cannot be made to live again UNTIL it is changed, and that is what fire does, it changes from what it was to what it will be. My  :2c:

Those who are dead don't live, only the living are able to live.

Who is this God who can raise the dead and make them into the living?

Who is this God who can raise the weed and array it with flowering glory greater than Solomon's?

Quote from: Lefein on September 21, 2010, 05:49:31 PM
Those who are dead don't live, only the living are able to live.

Who is this God who can raise the dead and make them into the living?

Who is this God who can raise the weed and array it with flowering glory greater than Solomon's?

Beautifull!
:Sparkletooth:

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
(Joh 15:5-6)

Glory and Amen! :happygrin:

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
(Joh 15:5-6)

Mat 3:10  "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....... Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:40-42)

The axe and the winnowing fork, interesting stuff. Trees usually symbolize men or groups of men. "Trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord"... "He shall be like a tree, planted beside the streams of water"....the dunged tree of parable.

I think the axe laid to the roots of the trees is the same as "not one stone shall be left standing upon another". The buildings of man compare to fruitless trees. God comes for fruit but finds none as the landowner sends a servant to receive interest and the servant is beaten.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
(Mat 21:43-44)

....It will scatter him like dust......they are gathered and thrown into the fire........thoroughly purging the threshing floor.......if any man's work is burned up, he will lose his reward, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.....tormented day and night in the presence of the Lord to the age....Lake of fire.....outer darkness.......all these things are parables in a sense, insofar as we don't yet know what we will be, and we don't yet know what these disciplines and penalties will actually be-we see them through a glass darkly.

The weeds are "gathered out" before they are burned, I find this interesting- and there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"- definitely unpleasantness as defined by our Lord, "better to have your arm cut off and enter maimed than be cast alive into Gehenna fire". For all those who desire this gospel to be all sweetness and light there is a stern warning not to be ignored. Yet, the end of all things is the reconciliation of all things through the blood of His cross- God being all in all.

  If the lake of fire is a unique manifestation of the wrath of God for the predatory wicked, perhaps there will be a unique manifestation of the discipline of God for those who have, "Once been enlightened and have partaken of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and the powers of the age to come". Perhaps another unique manifestation is already in place for the angels who left there proper estate and are held by aidios chains in darkness awaiting the tribunal of the great day. What if the spirits in prison unto whom Jesus declared the victorious good news when He descended were set free with "time served" and led gloriously captive in His train into the heavens. Maybe there is one fire and all are in in it always until all the adversaries are consumed. I have my doubts about anyone who makes confident assertions about these things that are by nature "olam"........ beyond the horizon, unseen. What I rejoice in is that we can be sure that all discipline is for the edification of the one disciplined and all that is destroyed is destroyed in the transformation of what is "being made new".

(2Pe 3:7-13)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Everyone will be salted with fire, nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

An administration of the completion of the times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, till God becomes all in all

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

Perhaps at death, the thief steals all that we are holding onto in the night? Maybe everyone who "sleeps" in the dark awakens at the Day  

and the elements (stoichion- rudiments, elementary principles)shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Everyman's work will be tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it.... on the Day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ, their conscience either accusing or excusing them.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved

the night is passing, the Day is dawning),

what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

walk as children of the Day

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

No one knows the day or the hour of the TRANSFORMATION....a day without morning or evening....a moment, a twinkling of an eye


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


                                                         

rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I have found this interesting for a while now, that this passage mentions that they shall have their part in the lake of fire.

a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent: the rear part of the house; to glue the two parts together.


A part is not the whole, so to me it means that only the persons spirit partakes in the lake of fire, which means it won't be a physical torture type burning, but something else that cannot be comprehended.

So when I combine the passages in (1Co 3:12-15 what I see is that wicked men, their souls on the earth being pictured as tares and all their possesions, gold, silver etc will be destroyed, cut off from the earth, the wicked shall be no more, but their spirit ( A Part of the whole)  will be saved yet through fire i.e the lake of fire.

Quote from: thinktank on September 21, 2010, 09:38:49 PM
rev 21
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

A part is not the whole, so to me it means that only the persons spirit partakes in the lake of fire, which means it won't be a physical torture type burning, but something else that cannot be comprehended.

For me part is not about a part of a person bu being part of a group.

Quote from: Lefein on September 21, 2010, 05:49:31 PM
Those who are dead don't live, only the living are able to live.

Who is this God who can raise the dead and make them into the living?

Who is this God who can raise the weed and array it with flowering glory greater than Solomon's?

Certainly beautiful imagery.  And I don't rule anything like that out.  But, from a practical standpoint I look at the text and ask what was the message of Jesus.  What was he trying to convey?  Was he hiding a secret within an explanation?  Was Jesus wanting to appear to be saying one thing when he was saying something entirely different?  I'm more of a traditionalist in this sense.  I think Jesus said what he meant.  I think he used imagery that is certain and solid.  Two parts of the same plant...one useable, one waste...one meant for use, the other meant for destruction.  And while I think we can look for all sorts of hidden meanings within this section I'm not sure it's prudent.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.  Pr. 25:2

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables?  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is not given."  Matt 13:10-11

"All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke He not unto them."  Matt 13:34

"This parable spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them."  John 10:6

And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables.  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,  so that
"they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven."   Mark 4:10-12

"Let these sayings sink down into your ears. . . But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, and they perceived it not...."  Luke 9:44,45

"... and they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34

I do get that Jab.  But, taking this into consideration is the entire Bible written in code?  Was God's intent to confuse and bewilder?  Did he not want us to take him at his written word?  If Jesus is the word and the word is confusion then is Jesus confusion?  What crowd is the Bible speaking about in those passages...believers?  While I do see deeper meaning to passages, I believe in the written word as it stands.  If it says something I believe it.  That doesn't mean I won't search out deeper meanings, things hidden.  What it does mean is I have to trust what is written.  I have to let it stand on it's own merit and not put my own private interpretations into it.  I fully concede you guys might have Holy Spirit revelation on these scriptures I do not have.  With that said, I just can't see what you saying about this particular passage.

Hi Shawn.

I'll try to explain my thoughts;

just that God has a plan that doesn't necessarily make all things clearly understood by all;

that He reveals what to whom, and when He pleases - as suits His purposes of that plan;

that we are to dig, ask for wisdom, and be open to revelation;

but we can't understand unless He gives it to us.

I also believe in His Word as it stands, and believe many things are simple and clear - Jesus is God's Son, He's the Savior, believe, trust, love - but beyond that there are many things He's revealing in each one of us over time.  Some now more than others, and some not until they stand in His Direct Presence.  For instance (and I believe it's a "hard saying") it was apparently not even His will for most to understand Who He was or what He was doing.  Paul said to this day, when the prophets are read there remains a veil over the eyes of the Jewish people.  Yet what happens?  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  And so all Israel shall be saved.." Romans 11:25.

There's a process going on that I admit, I don't fully understand, but it apparently involves some things being known now, while some things remain hidden - to some more than others ("He who has ears hear what the Spirit says...").  Apparently many (most?) have not been given ears to hear or eyes to see, and that's God's will.  That's one reason UR makes sense to me, in that He is working this great Plan and He will bring it all full circle, ultimately "fixing" it all exactly as He wants it.

Well, anyway, I could be very wrong about many things, because I could have much blindness or have been confused/deceived about some things myself.  This just seems what He's shown me over the past few years.  Sometimes it's frustrating because it can seem we have so little control and He has so much, and sometimes I/we understand the details of His Plan so little.  But I guess that's much of the whole point;  learning how to trust Him, be obedient, and walk humbly before our God.

God bless.

 :cloud9: Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares is not talking about a chronological "age", it's talking about the end of our carnally minded fleshly "world" as individuals going thru the harvest.

Note the world is where the good seed is planted. The good seed is Christ and He's been "planted" in you, awaiting His resurrection IN YOU.

The enemy planted the tares while he slept. Adam was put to sleep but you cannot find where God ever woke him up, BECAUSE Christ is the one who is to awaken IN YOU. Arise and shine, SHAKE OFF THE DUST, and Christ will give you light (understanding).

Light also gives off heat, and is as FIRE. The understanding that comes from the mind of Christ being awakened or quickening you, brings with it by it's very nature, the fire to consume anything that is not like it, ie. the tares/darkness. This is the HARVEST, where the tares or darkness in you, gets thrown into the fire to be consumed by the glory of His appearing in your heavens/mind/comprehension.

This is how we're translated out of the kingdom of darkness (carnal minds) and into the kingdom of light (understanding that comes from mind of Christ). The angels, which means messengers OR MESSAGES, gather up the tares and throw them into the fire which consumes them.

THIS receiving of messages or messengers with a message, continues on and on as we grow from glory (terrestrial/carnal mind) to glory (celestial/mind of Christ) and then is the end of YOUR WORLD, where the darkness of men's minds have reigned instead of the mind of Christ.

This is why it says we may entertain ANGELS unaware, because without the mind of Christ being submitted to, you can hear truth, but not receive it. My  :2c: Blessings....

My :2c:

Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
(Mat 13:52)

Parables are like wheels within wheels, carrying within them many levels of meaning. When someone asserts that their perspective is "the" understanding of the parable, they are probably being presumptuous, even if their interpretation is correct within its scope. The interpretation Cardinal gives of the parable of the tares is beautiful. It is not the all inclusive meaning of the parable in my opinion. I think the parable is also applicable to the age times, for the following reasons.

IMO, for each of us, in every generation -this world(aion/kosmos) ends when we die. We awaken from our 'sleep' in the GREAT DAY OF GOD- to our various destinations, having yet times to be completed in the ages to come, as immortality begins swallowing mortality- varying glories for the overcomers, various destinations for those who remain of all the dead.

To assert conclusively that Christ interpreted the parable for the disciples, with another parable for us that has no application in time, in my opinion does some damage to the integrity of the scriptures.

For me it is important not to negate the beautiful interpretation Cardinal gave. It is also important not to negate the application of the parable to the outworking of the ages and understanding the judgment of God that awaits hypocrites(play actors) and those who will not "abide in the fire" for purging of the carnal nature in "this age".

Our participation in this age ends when we die.  "He that is coming will come and will not delay, so that you have need of patience, so that after you have done the will for God you may receive what was promised, for my righteous one will live by faith, but if he 'shrink back' my soul will have no pleasure in him(Hebrews 10)"....in other words, he himself will be saved, but losing his reward, as one saved through the flames.

Those who are 'awake', abiding in the Day have no need to fear the 'thief'. (1 Thes 5:1-8) Paul nevetheless is writing here(1 Thess 5:1) of 'the times and seasons'.

The coming(epiphania/parousia/erchomai) of the Lord, for every soul, is whenever they "awaken" from sleep. Those who are NOW  ALREADY awakened have passed from death unto life; darkness to light. "Awaken thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine upon you".

Those who walk as Children of the Day have no need to fear the thief , death- which ushers everyone into THE GREAT DAY of awakening- when every eye will see Him. Some will yet have something to fear on that day (hide us from Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb Rv 6:16), their consciences either excusing them or accusing them on the Day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ (Romans 2). Those who do not abide/continue in the Day but shrink back into sleep, may find themselves not awakening with the shout of the archangel, but rather awakening before the judgment seat of Christ, to be saved through the fire.

From this perspective the parable of the wheat and the tares has an application that is both immediate and distant in time- because all of our instances are connected by this one great coming moment The Day of God- therefore watch, and pray- lest you be caught unaware.

There are many possibilities, probabilities and unknowables. I hesitate to assert any of these to be absolutes, lest I impugn the truth at the level of my ignorance. :o) Peace, John

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0


wow wabbit...you've been busy since I've been gone...what a GREAT list of materials...love it! Thank you sooo much for posting! :icon_flower:

Just getting into the discussion of this thread, which is great, but noticed the list on your post and took a peek...great stuff! Very helpful! :)

Hum? I'm not Sigler. It''s not my book excerpt.
BTW where is your distilery avatar?

It does make a good deal of sense that the good part of an ear of wheat would be used while the useless chaff is blown away to nothingness.

I'd never seen an interpretation like that before, and it makes a lot of sense.  After all, it is the seed that Christ is after, because the seed is what is planted - grows- bears fruit.  The chaff grows even with the new seeds that are planted through "the hundred fold fruit".

Can the physical and spiritual meaning of the Word manifest  simultaneously?

 :cloud9:  Yes. His name was Jesus..... :icon_jokercolor:  sorry.....couldn't resist  :winkgrin: Blessings.....

Likewise,
You cannot make bread out of wheat still encased by the chaff. The grain has to be both beaten(for separation); fanned(because the chaff is light in weight and will blow away from the wheat) so the wheat can be 'gathered' and the chaff can be burned with unquenchable fire(because it is now worthless).

Also,
In planting, the seed can not begin to fulfill its purpose until it is hidden/buried/submerged in the earth (death... as in "I have died and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God")
before the life within will begin to 'take form' - breaking the chaff which is cast off into the earth as the wheat grows into fruit bearing fulness- first the shoot, then the stalk, then the harvest.

Jas 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

 :cloud9:  But you know what......even with that I don't see anything as being worthless in God's economy because to be consumed with God could only be to be changed into His likeness.

The rod of Moses that consumed the Egyptian's snakes (serpent nature) obviously became one with that rod when it turned back into a rod. You are what you eat becomes, what you eat becomes what you are..... :icon_joker:

The waters below the firmament and the waters above the firmament were once ONE, and the latter rain comes DOWN (indicating it's placement in the waters above the firmament), and in so doing makes the two one again. All things came out of Him, and all things return to Him. My  :2c: Leaning hard  :laughing7: towards the spiritual this morning, LOL..... Blessings....

Quote from: jabcat on September 22, 2010, 01:28:44 PM
Hi Shawn.

I'll try to explain my thoughts;

just that God has a plan that doesn't necessarily make all things clearly understood by all;

that He reveals what to whom, and when He pleases - as suits His purposes of that plan;

that we are to dig, ask for wisdom, and be open to revelation;

but we can't understand unless He gives it to us.

I also believe in His Word as it stands, and believe many things are simple and clear - Jesus is God's Son, He's the Savior, believe, trust, love - but beyond that there are many things He's revealing in each one of us over time.  Some now more than others, and some not until they stand in His Direct Presence.  For instance (and I believe it's a "hard saying") it was apparently not even His will for most to understand Who He was or what He was doing.  Paul said to this day, when the prophets are read there remains a veil over the eyes of the Jewish people.  Yet what happens?  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.  And so all Israel shall be saved.." Romans 11:25.

There's a process going on that I admit, I don't fully understand, but it apparently involves some things being known now, while some things remain hidden - to some more than others ("He who has ears hear what the Spirit says...").  Apparently many (most?) have not been given ears to hear or eyes to see, and that's God's will.  That's one reason UR makes sense to me, in that He is working this great Plan and He will bring it all full circle, ultimately "fixing" it all exactly as He wants it.

Well, anyway, I could be very wrong about many things, because I could have much blindness or have been confused/deceived about some things myself.  This just seems what He's shown me over the past few years.  Sometimes it's frustrating because it can seem we have so little control and He has so much, and sometimes I/we understand the details of His Plan so little.  But I guess that's much of the whole point;  learning how to trust Him, be obedient, and walk humbly before our God.

God bless.

Yeah, I am feeling this...and agree.  As with everything in the word it's multifacited and fluid.  I believe one of the reasons God hides things is so we will indeed search it out.  For me, that means the knowledge at the end of the journey is of much less importance than the journey itself.  Through our searching we find increased faith, humility, closer conscious contact with God and learn a little bit about ourselves.  My searching has not only brought me insight into my Savior but has brought me revelation about myself and the substance of my faith.

Lovin this thread.  For me, seeing the kingdom principles does many things.  One, it reveals who is walking in the spirit and who is in the flesh . . .kind of like showing your age sort of thing.  Two, it's a sign of submission.  So many almost demand that truth be hand-fed to them, much like a baby crying for his bottle.  But again, it's not about forcing God to bow to my demands because of my limited understanding, it's about me submitting to his spiritual alignment within me in order for me to finally see the clarity of his truth.  There's nothing wrong with being a spiritual baby, but there "is" something wrong if that baby is showing no signs of maturity.

The manna formed upon the dew while they were in the wilderness.  But once they passed through their Jordan (means descender, connected to death), which by the way, when they first crossed, it backed up all the way to the city of Adam . . .redemption all the way back to the origin of man . . .but once they crossed the Jordan and entered into the promise place of living, the manna was no longer seen on the surface of the earthy things.

willieH: Hi EW... :hithere:

Before I answer this post, might I commend much wisdom within it! :omg:

God, through you ...has certainly given me insights in posting it...  :thumbsup:

Though I have a few different views on a few of its aspects, than do you presently, I really have benefited and gained in its reading!  Thanks...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PM
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:12-15)


"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
(Joh 15:5-6)

Mat 3:10  "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire....... Mat 3:12  "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 13:40-42)

Such a great set of Scriptures to post together!  I hope in replying to your comments, you shall not in any way be offended... we are all learning, and this post of yours is definitely one in which evidences of profit are found!

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMThe axe and the winnowing fork, interesting stuff. Trees usually symbolize men or groups of men. "Trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord"... "He shall be like a tree, planted beside the streams of water"....the dunged tree of parable.

I think the axe laid to the roots of the trees is the same as "not one stone shall be left standing upon another". The buildings of man compare to fruitless trees. God comes for fruit but finds none as the landowner sends a servant to receive interest and the servant is beaten.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
(Mat 21:43-44)

....It will scatter him like dust......they are gathered and thrown into the fire........thoroughly purging the threshing floor.......if any man's work is burned up, he will lose his reward, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.....tormented day and night in the presence of the Lord to the age....Lake of fire.....outer darkness.......all these things are parables in a sense, insofar as we don't yet know what we will be, and we don't yet know what these disciplines and penalties will actually be-we see them through a glass darkly.

We are ALL returned to the "dust"... as the LIFE (the "chief CORNER STONE" -- Eph 2:20 -- 1 Pet 2:6) grinds us back to it, where we began (we end where we began) -- :idea2: --  John 14:6 -- I AM the way, the truth and ...the LIFE

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMThe weeds are "gathered out" before they are burned, I find this interesting- and there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth"- definitely unpleasantness as defined by our Lord, "better to have your arm cut off and enter maimed than be cast alive into Gehenna fire". For all those who desire this gospel to be all sweetness and light there is a stern warning not to be ignored. Yet, the end of all things is the reconciliation of all things through the blood of His cross- God being all in all.

You are welcome to your perception of the GOSPEL of PEACE, bro... as I see it is somewhat amiss...  :Chinscratch: ...you are welcome to disagree...  :winkgrin:

We reap what we "sow" in this present life...  :heat:  Try a little CANCER on for size sometime, and then you shall KNOW what I mean...  :secret:

This EXPERIENCE is plenty "stearn" enough.  :declare: 

The GOSPEL of PEACE -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15 -- is not about proposing MORE FEAR it is about LOVE which CASTS OUT FEAR -- 1 John 4:18 --

When truthfully presented [IMO] it is about PEACE.  That which is FEARFUL is NOT PEACEFUL... any portion which is included in the message of PEACE that is FEARFUL ...is INCOMPLETE and short of LOVE, and short of the GOSPEL of PEACE.  :sigh:

The emergence within the realm of the PHYSICAL of such FEARFUL and HORROR filled scenarios as (to name just a few) Aids, Cancer, and countless other PAINFILLED diseases, in conjunction with world-wide -- famine, drug addiction, war, homelessness, all which are found THRIVING within the Creation is ample enough evidence of the SEVERITY of YHVH and contain sufficient portions for each of us to "gnash teeth"... there is no need for such to continue into the realm exclusively of the SPIRITUAL (resurrection)...  and any message which includes MORE of the same, LATER... is hardly a message that can be called PEACE.

GEHENNA was about SHAME... Only the SHAME of our involvement has potential to follow us -- Rev 3:18 -- the GOSPEL of PEACE dispenses with FEAR of anything else, when heard by the hearer...

This information does not grant us MISBEHAVIOR!  ...on the contrary... as I said, regardless of our being informed (or not) of the GOSPEL of PEACE, we shall STILL reap what we SOW... and the SOWING to the SPIRIT is the LIVING elimination of the WRATH which comes against SOWING to the FLESH.  It's really pretty simple.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMIf the lake of fire is a unique manifestation of the wrath of God for the predatory wicked, perhaps there will be a unique manifestation of the discipline of God for those who have, "Once been enlightened and have partaken of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and the powers of the age to come". Perhaps another unique manifestation is already in place for the angels who left there proper estate and are held by aidios chains in darkness awaiting the tribunal of the great day. What if the spirits in prison unto whom Jesus declared the victorious good news when He descended were set free with "time served" and led gloriously captive in His train into the heavens. Maybe there is one fire and all are in in it always until all the adversaries are consumed. I have my doubts about anyone who makes confident assertions about these things that are by nature "olam"........ beyond the horizon, unseen. What I rejoice in is that we can be sure that all discipline is for the edification of the one disciplined and all that is destroyed is destroyed in the transformation of what is "being made new".

The "spirits in prison" are all men which live within this life.  The preaching took place, is taking place, will be taking place...  JESUS has never ceased preaching!  He (as He was in the tomb) did not "preach" to (physically and previously) DEAD men!

In death, His LIFE spoke from the Grave which He predicted for Himself!   He speaks THROUGH His followers... You and I NEVER originate TRUTH... TRUTH is always originated of CHRIST.

There is not a torment for this or for that which is specific and ordered due to our doings, it is GOD which works all things -- Eph 1:11 -- immersing ALL of us within our individual parts of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, being the participants and demonstrators of it. 

And any recompense we might be involved in is within the GLORY of the manufacturing process -- Rom 9:16-23 -- of the vessel of HONOR, which in part was done within the appearance of the vessel of DISHONOR!

We are the SONS of God... and it is our SORROW that shall bring JOY in the riddance of our involvements in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... ALL EVIL shall GLORIFY YHVH when it has run its course for its revelation, INDICATES and MAGNIFIES that which is GOOD, and in the ETERNAL realm, it shall NEVER re-occur... to the ETERNAL JOY and GLORY of GOD, which is FOREVER given to the SONS of LOVE.

YHVH God, in His WORD bothered to mention TEN TIMES that He is without RESPECT of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 (& 9 others = He is impartial to all).  The human race follows a trail outlined by HIM, not them (Eph 1:11 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 10:23)... for they (we) KNOW NOT what they (we) "DO" -- Luke 23:34 -- :nod:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PM(2Pe 3:7-13)

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

ALL men are "UNGODLY" for whom CHRIST died -- Rom 5:6-8 -- NOW is the judgment of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31 -- and NOW is the DAY of the "FIRE" of judgment -- Rev 3:18 -- 1 Pet 1:7

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMEveryone will be salted with fire, nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor

ALL stand in their EVERY MOMENT before YHVH who is EVER EXISTING EVERYWHERE... 

In the ETERNAL moment -- 1 Cor 15:52 -- that YHVH manifests ALL in ALL, then ALL shall KNOW as they are KNOWN -- 1 Cor 13:12 -- and LIGHT shall have exposed ALL darkness within that manifestation.  Which is the DAY of YHVH... in which we (all) "NOW" appear -- Gen 2:3-4

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMThe Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

It is GOD in His GOODNESS which leads one to repent -- Rom 2:4 -- and it is within His perfect impartiality and UNWILLINGNESS for any to PERISH, that assures us that He shall "lead" each one, until ALL are repentent.

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMAn administration of the completion of the times, the gathering into one of all things in Christ, till God becomes all in all

Great words... full of HOPE for ALL... the "perfect" result of the "perfect" story of the human race...

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMBut the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,

Perhaps at death, the thief steals all that we are holding onto in the night? Maybe everyone who "sleeps" in the dark awakens at the Day

Great insight!  This is God using your words, EW...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMand the elements (stoichion- rudiments, elementary principles)shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Everyman's work will be tested by fire for the Day shall reveal it.... on the Day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ, their conscience either accusing or excusing them.

I don't think ANY of our works are "excused"... they are meant to be indicative of GOD's Eternal GOODNESS...

As far as "accusing", this is also intended... that humility of unrighteousness before holiness be RIGHTLY manifest.

The "Day" is taking place... NOW -- John 12:31 -- We are ALL tested NOW... and THIS DAY of FIRE is revealing the results of that "test" as it occurs EXACTLY as ordered by YHVH -- Isaiah 46:10

Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2010, 09:26:14 PMSeeing then that all these things shall be dissolved

the night is passing, the Day is dawning),

what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

walk as children of the Day

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

No one knows the day or the hour of the TRANSFORMATION....a day without morning or evening....a moment, a twinkling of an eye


Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW

                                                         

BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW

The "day" and "hour" of transformation is NOW... NOW is the accepted TIME, NOW is the DAY of SALVATION -- 2 Cor 6:2

When the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is fully REVEALED as noted by the WORD of YHVH as IS [forever] KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH... then shall this realm be complete, and run its course.

Yes and amen......and they were just taking the first steps into obtaining the promises(wherever your feet tread, that I will give unto you). One of the things that I have seen for over thirty years(I'm nothing special, I just mean its nothing new) is that we sometimes think that seeing the promised land(revelation) is the same as possessing the land(manifestation). They are not nearly the same. What we see, may be as unreachable to us as it was to Moses, if say, we are still striking the rock :o). They could not passover Jordan until "every unbelieving member had perished in the wilderness". So also, if any man would be a vessel fit for the Master's use, he must cleanse himself from these (unbelieving members). The first victory(Jericho) was a victory of faith and obedience that disarmed the principalities and powers that blocked the way into "obtaining the inheritance". They were only able to obtain that victory because they had been "smelted in the furnace of fire"- cleansed as it were from all those who would have kept them from obeying "as one soul". Thus, the verses of the original post continue to be a glorious illustration of the principles of God.

Hey Willie :hithere: :Oops:
I was writing my most recent post as yours was posted.... I will read it now.

We are the SONS of God... and it is our SORROW that shall bring JOY in the riddance of our involvements in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... ALL EVIL shall GLORIFY YHVH when it has run its course for its revelation, INDICATES and MAGNIFIES that which is GOOD, and in the ETERNAL realm, it shall NEVER re-occur... to the ETERNAL JOY and GLORY of GOD, which is FOREVER given to the SONS of LOVE.

  Yes, I agree with this statement entirely. However, not all have believed. Some are sons of disobedience still. While the fire manifests upon and within us in a variety of ways, if we endure to the end we will be delivered(in the birth of the sons, i.e the manifestation of the sons of God). I am as yet unconvinced that there will be no fire (for the sons of disobedience) beyond the veil of this age. I make no confident assertions about the nature of that fire other than that it is the light, and it consumes the darkness(everything that is hidden in darkness will be brought to light, and evrything that is brought to the light becomes light). But then, I am speaking of possibilities and probabilities, for we see through a glass darkly. I did briefly write a little more about how I see this in a post earlier today  http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8665.msg104865#msg104865 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8665.msg104865#msg104865)

As far as consciences excusing individuals before the Great White Throne, as it is written in Romans 2:14 & 15, that simply means that their conscience will testify that they did not violate the law that was written on their hearts, or perhaps that they perceived the testimony of God's eternal power and divine nature that is manifest in the things He created and lived in it(Ro 1:18-20). It doesn't mean that anyone's conscience can excuse them from any evil works they committed.

As the fire is good and not evil, I do not believe evil will ever occur again after the last enemy is subjected, being death, so I believe before death can be destroyed all things(every being) will be in harmony in Christ and God will be the river that flows through all. How that works out through time is a bit foggy(and meant to be I think), but wrote a bit of how I see it in the aforementioned link.

As the fire is light and not darkness, when all is consumed- all is in the light and God is all in all. I am not sure if we see the age times as working out in the same way- but I am not dogmatic on those things and am still learning.

As to wailing and gnashing of teeth.... I see it sorta like this. "Jacob O worm"....."their worm dieth not"....."In THAT DAY I will slay Leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent(worm), with His great and strong sword..... in THAT DAY sing of it- A VINEYARD OF RED WINE."(Isaiah 27:1)

When we have spent our life HIDING (as in the garden) from our sin we have become accustomed to darkness and the SERPENT/WORM lives within us, down in the deep, beneath the chaos, operating where it is formless and void(carnal mind not conformed to the image of Christ and empty of fruit-fruitless- as in the fruitless trees of our previous posts).

Yet, the Spirit hovers over the face of the deep BECAUSE GOD IS NOT SLOW CONCERNING HIS PROMISES, but is patient, desiring all to come to brokeness, i.e, confession, bringing the hidden to light- SO HE CAN DELIVER THEM into FRUITFULNESS.


The Word is the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT and it PIERCES to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit MAKING MANIFEST the (secret/hidden) motives and thoughts of the heart(let there be light).  Whatever means God uses to bring this spirit of TRUTH IN THE INNER MAN(thou desirest truth in the inner man....a broken and contrite heart O God you will not despise) be it CAPTIVITY, DIS-EASE of whatever type or time, I believe that we have to face the fire/light and it will begin to burn the hidden/darkness things until we COME CLEAN before His Lordship.

Then we become washed in the blood- tho we were previously forgiven, we now EXPERIENCE/MANIFEST DELIVERANCE and enter the glorious freedom of the sons of God. For the rebellious(adversaries, those who oppose themselves), they is weep and gnash their teeth in the LIGHT/FIRE until the serpent is slain, the darkness dispelled, the deliverance achieved and the breach healed. When one opens the gate/confesses/bows the knee, they have paid the last penny and are set free from the prison. GLORY! The chaos is dispelled by the DAY and Fruitfulness begins to yield its bounty. For some this deliverance occurs in this life(the wise virgins), Perhaps for some it will follow in ages to come, Perhaps it will occur all in one glorious DAY that occurs when the sleepers are awakened to stand before Him, the eternal moment that comes after we pass through the veil.

I have seen what you shared about the spirits in prison before.....not sure I agree but not dismissing it. What is written is

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:19-20)

These spirits in prison seem to be identified specifically as being from the "days of Noah".


While I read your post carefully. I am still missing your meaning on a few things....

So I will definitely read it again, and I am in no way offended by your response. Peace, John

Hi Willie,


The "day" and "hour" of transformation is NOW... NOW is the accepted TIME, NOW is the DAY of SALVATION -- 2 Cor 6:2

When the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is fully REVEALED as noted by the WORD of YHVH as IS [forever] KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH... then shall this realm be complete, and run its course.Quote


I also quite agree with this.

In Fact, my purpose in quoting the scriptures concerning "No one knows the hour" and the "the thief" is to say that while we look for a coming apocalypse in time.... the true apocalypse is NOW, TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, walking in the Light as children of the DAY that ALWAYS IS (because it is eternal). But for those who SLEEP it is not apparent. THE THIEF COMES (death) when they expect it not and steals all that they were SLEEPING WITH (spiritual adultery yuk yuk). Some wake up on the GREAT DAY OF GOD and cry out to the rocks and caves to fall on them and HIDE THEM from the PRESENCE of the one who sits on the throne and the Lamb. But they can't hide. They are summoned to tribunal. The Sword of the Spirit plumbs their depths and finds them out. Leviathan is slain.
In every life TODAY is the DAY and NOW is the TIME to be delivered......Watch ye therefore.....

The WHEN and the HOW (aion and kosmos)of it related to the fulness of times.... Whew, Who has known the mind of the Lord and Who has been His counselor? We could discuss it for an age! :o)

The WHY of it....well thats different..... LOVE is the WHY of it. FELLOWSHIP. UNION. HARMONY. A celebration of LIFE. :o) Peace, John

Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2010, 11:22:59 PM
We are the SONS of God... and it is our SORROW that shall bring JOY in the riddance of our involvements in the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... ALL EVIL shall GLORIFY YHVH when it has run its course for its revelation, INDICATES and MAGNIFIES that which is GOOD, and in the ETERNAL realm, it shall NEVER re-occur... to the ETERNAL JOY and GLORY of GOD, which is FOREVER given to the SONS of LOVE.

  Yes, I agree with this statement entirely. However, not all have believed. Some are sons of disobedience still. While the fire manifests upon and within us in a variety of ways, if we endure to the end we will be delivered(in the birth of the sons, i.e the manifestation of the sons of God). I am as yet unconvinced that there will be no fire (for the sons of disobedience) beyond the veil of this age. I make no confident assertions about the nature of that fire other than that it is the light, and it consumes the darkness(everything that is hidden in darkness will be brought to light, and evrything that is brought to the light becomes light). But then, I am speaking of possibilities and probabilities, for we see through a glass darkly. I did briefly write a little more about how I see this in a post earlier today  http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8665.msg104865#msg104865 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8665.msg104865#msg104865)

As far as consciences excusing individuals before the Great White Throne, as it is written in Romans 2:14 & 15, that simply means that their conscience will testify that they did not violate the law that was written on their hearts, or perhaps that they perceived the testimony of God's eternal power and divine nature that is manifest in the things He created and lived in it(Ro 1:18-20). It doesn't mean that anyone's conscience can excuse them from any evil works they committed.

As the fire is good and not evil, I do not believe evil will ever occur again after the last enemy is subjected, being death, so I believe before death can be destroyed all things(every being) will be in harmony in Christ and God will be the river that flows through all. How that works out through time is a bit foggy(and meant to be I think), but wrote a bit of how I see it in the aforementioned link.

As the fire is light and not darkness, when all is consumed- all is in the light and God is all in all. I am not sure if we see the age times as working out in the same way- but I am not dogmatic on those things and am still learning.

As to wailing and gnashing of teeth.... I see it sorta like this. "Jacob O worm"....."their worm dieth not"....."In THAT DAY I will slay Leviathan, the twisting fleeing serpent(worm), with His great and strong sword..... in THAT DAY sing of it- A VINEYARD OF RED WINE."(Isaiah 27:1)

When we have spent our life HIDING (as in the garden) from our sin we have become accustomed to darkness and the SERPENT/WORM lives within us, down in the deep, beneath the chaos, operating where it is formless and void(carnal mind not conformed to the image of Christ and empty of fruit-fruitless- as in the fruitless trees of our previous posts).

Yet, the Spirit hovers over the face of the deep BECAUSE GOD IS NOT SLOW CONCERNING HIS PROMISES, but is patient, desiring all to come to brokeness, i.e, confession, bringing the hidden to light- SO HE CAN DELIVER THEM into FRUITFULNESS.


The Word is the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT and it PIERCES to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit MAKING MANIFEST the (secret/hidden) motives and thoughts of the heart(let there be light).  Whatever means God uses to bring this spirit of TRUTH IN THE INNER MAN(thou desirest truth in the inner man....a broken and contrite heart O God you will not despise) be it CAPTIVITY, DIS-EASE of whatever type or time, I believe that we have to face the fire/light and it will begin to burn the hidden/darkness things until we COME CLEAN before His Lordship.

Then we become washed in the blood- tho we were previously forgiven, we now EXPERIENCE/MANIFEST DELIVERANCE and enter the glorious freedom of the sons of God. For the rebellious(adversaries, those who oppose themselves), they is weep and gnash their teeth in the LIGHT/FIRE until the serpent is slain, the darkness dispelled, the deliverance achieved and the breach healed. When one opens the gate/confesses/bows the knee, they have paid the last penny and are set free from the prison. GLORY! The chaos is dispelled by the DAY and Fruitfulness begins to yield its bounty. For some this deliverance occurs in this life(the wise virgins), Perhaps for some it will follow in ages to come, Perhaps it will occur all in one glorious DAY that occurs when the sleepers are awakened to stand before Him, the eternal moment that comes after we pass through the veil.

I have seen what you shared about the spirits in prison before.....not sure I agree but not dismissing it. What is written is

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(1Pe 3:19-20)

These spirits in prison seem to be identified specifically as being from the "days of Noah".


While I read your post carefully. I am still missing your meaning on a few things....

So I will definitely read it again, and I am in no way offended by your response. Peace, John

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:

A couple more thoughts. (i am so long winded sometimes lol).

In smelting, the fire brings the impurities to the surface. This is pretty obvious in the following excerpts:


Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
(1Pe 1:6-7)

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
(Rev 3:18-19)

....and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
(Heb 12:5-7)


"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.
(Mal 3:2-3)

Therefore the Lord GOD of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, "Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes. "I will also turn My hand against you, And will smelt away your dross as with lye And will remove all your alloy. "Then I will restore your judges as at the first, And your counselors as at the beginning; After that you will be called the city of righteousness, A faithful city."
(Isa 1:24-26)

In the Malachi portion, a few verses later he gets specific....

"Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts. "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
(Mal 3:5-6)

The Lord asserts both His discipline and His mercy at the same time. He will maintain His own pure testimony because he does not change, He Is Who He Is. Therefore, also because of His mercy, we are not consumed.

Again we see the fruitless trees will be cut down, while the branches that bear fruit are continually pruned that they might continue to grow in fruitfulness.

All this, IMO has to do with believers, sons and daughters in this age. Others have labored(in times past, a great cloud of witness) and we have entered into their labors.

By this shall the world know that you are my disciples...by your love for one another.......That they may be one even as you and I are one- I in you and you in me and I in them.

Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God.

Jas 5:7  Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.





Where the worm of Jacob is concerned, and the serpent Leviathan- I have seen his ugly face many times and he is me. "I have seen the enemy and it is us!!!!"  :LH:

I see him rear up from his hiding place in the deep when the Lord sets up a 'sting' to catch me out- when I am offended for instance, or attacked unexpectedly. 'The Day" comes upon me and that which was hidden gets shouted from the housetops. Woe unto me, for I am a man of unclean lips......

What shall be given unto thee? or what shall be done unto thee, thou false tongue? Sharp arrows of the mighty, with coals of juniper.
(Psa 120:3-4)

In bringing truth to my inner man, God allows my adversaries to gather around me. Will I glorify my deliverer and be delivered? He that seeks to save His own life will lose it, but He that loses His life for my sake will find it unto life eternal. Can I trust the Holy Spirit to give me words in th hour of trial? or will I call my old defender Leviathan up from the deep to work mischief with my tongue?



Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
(Job 41:1)
"Lay your hand on him; Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
(Job 41:8)

How fierce we are coming up out of the chaos to do battle for ourselves in the name of the Lord! Leviathan rises up and no matter what he is saying, no matter how many verses he quotes- he never smells of life, there is just too much sulfur and heat in his breath.

When you squeeze a sponge full of water, you get wet......When you squeeze a dry sponge, you get 'dust'.

The world needs to see a lot of water as we are being squeezed, but instead we spew dust at one another.....

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake. (Psa 79:9)

I got a feelin there's a whole lotta fire comin. Peace, John

Some more interesting verses:

Exo 12:5-10  A flawless flockling, a year old male, shall you come to have. From the he-lambs or from the goats shall you take it.  (6)  And it will become a charge of yours until the fourteenth day of this month. They will slay it, every assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel, between the evening hours.  (7)  They will take some of the blood and put it on the two jambs and on the lintel, on the houses in which they are eating it.  (8)  Then they will eat the flesh on this night, roasted with fire, and with unleavened cakes; over bitter herbs shall they eat it.  (9)  Do not eat any of it underdone or cooked by being cooked in water, but rather roasted with fire, even its head along with its shanks and with its inwards.  (10)  You shall not reserve any of it until the morning. And what is left of it until the morning you shall burn with fire

A flawless human being from the flock of them/ Jesus among the sons of men. Blood is put on the two jambs/ the cross?.
Eating his flesh / I am the bread of life - eat of my flesh and have life.
But it is the consummation by fire that I find interesting, what's its meaning?

 :cloud9: Jesus said He baptized with fire. To baptize is to consume, completely cover. Being baptized with water is being baptized into the likeness of the His death; being baptized with fire is being baptized into the likeness of His life, which is Spirit. One is laying down, as if in a grave, one is standing up, as if resurrected. Blessings....

Immersion in fire.

1Co 3:12-13  Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,  (13)  each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."

Everything that is not of precious stones or metal will burn.

Interesting.

Quote from: Cardinal on September 24, 2010, 03:35:50 AM
:cloud9: Jesus said He baptized with fire. To baptize is to consume, completely cover. Being baptized with water is being baptized into the likeness of the His death; being baptized with fire is being baptized into the likeness of His life, which is Spirit. One is laying down, as if in a grave, one is standing up, as if resurrected. Blessings....

Oh Yeah!

 :laughing7:

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 24, 2010, 04:34:35 AM
Immersion in fire.

1Co 3:12-13  Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,  (13)  each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work - what kind it is."

Everything that is not of precious stones or metal will burn.

Interesting.

This doesn't get preached much in your traditional churches . . . it's too clear that the builder survives the fire.

I didn't read the quoted verse clear through, I thought the most important piece to it was there, but it's not.  Whoever originally posted it, left off the last important piece. 

15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

I really like what this part says . . .
each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident.

Traditions have said that this is pertaining to the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT . .. like that's a terrible thing.  That's supposedly when we all stand up before the world and God hangs out our dirty laundry for everyone to see.  What part of "I will cast your sins as far as the east is from the west" don't they understand?

It's not about the day that ends all other days, it's about Christ  ..the Day . . .being revealed "in" us by the Father because of our relationship with the SON.  Illumination is intimate "knowing".  Not knowing natural knowledge, but experiencing Truth.  Huge difference.  One puffs up egos, the other ignites freedom.

Amen Nathan,

From one scarred Hand to the Other

www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_J34QyY0Pk

Amen Nathan

 :cloud9: Amen Nathan, the Day declares it..... :thumbsup:

I dunno.....there are some verses that indicate that for some, The Day is gonna be a lil hard on the eyes at first ;o)

Oh yes, for those who've been so accustomed to walking according to "their version" of light, there's going to be a lot of squinting, probably some major head-aches as they are exposed to true light . . .I say "they" but that includes me as well.  Everything is a process, none have fully "arrived" as we continue our life-experiences pursuing the Father's light as he brings us into his life.

I agree.... but I was speaking of those who will cry out to the rocks and the caves hide us from the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of the Lamb. Those who serve the darkness willingly and unto whom everyone else is just prey.

Are you saying the Father can't reach them?  That he can't transform them because they want to hide?  I'm not getting your point . . . might be getting late . . .I dunno.

No :o) I wasnt saying God can't reach them, I am saying that they have to be in subjection to His love before they can rejoice....Also

I am saying that I believe the light/fire of God consuming the darkness/rebellion of adversaries may be a difficult experience to pass through....saved as passing through flames.

The many references in the scriptures to the coming wrath (Gr.orge) can't all be toothless cliches (as I see it). Better to pluck out your eye, so to speak. Wailing and gnashing of teeth..... All Jesus' descriptive expressions.

The sons of disobedience (natural men) are not being transformed now because they are hiding from His presence and the light of His glory. We are being transformed now because we embrace it, if we continue steadfast until His appearing. At some point they will be able to hide no longer, being found in the presence of God without any hiding places (beginning at the GWT perhaps, Rom 2). It may be more difficult than just a passing of the mist so to speak. I think there is something to fear, and the attempt to remove the fear of the judgment to come for the wicked is not, in my mind, consistent with the scriptures.

In that last post, I was just making a distinction between those who have there "version" of the light(saved but building wood, hay and stubble)- and those who just plain hate all the versions, and deny God, and are the predatory wicked of this age.

But I did write all that in detail in an earlier post in the thread, so I don't want to repeat it here. Grace andPeace, John

 :cloud9: As a sidenote, He showed me the rocks they hide under is a tombstone/stone to roll away/carnal mind, and the caves are their own stony hearts/Eves, from which they are refusing or are in ignorance of, letting Him resurrect up out of them. So then, they are hiding NOW, from the Day. My  :2c: Blessings....

Yes, I agree.... they are hiding from Him NOW and the rocks and caves are proverbial hiding places. There will be no place to hide when the dead awake into the appearing of the Lord. In His presence when He appears- they will be taken by the "thief", death, into the DAY. The DAY will not take us like a thief because we are children of light and the day has dawned in our hearts. We will rejoice at His appearing (whether as awaking from sleep or as alive and remaining) and are already rejoicing as the dawn increases toward full noon. That is why we watch and wait- no one knows the day or the hour. Those who sleep, sleep in the dark..... Awake O Sleeper, Arise from the dead and the Light of Christ will shine on you. :o)

But why wouldn't the judgement be NOW?
As I see it, people who are not attached to Jesus are DEAD?
Isn't the wage of sin death?
So as long as one sins he is dead; all sins except those who are in Christ (in Christ I do not sin but when I do sin I'm in the flesh)
The flesh dies and go into the grave so no resurrected man can sin, so no resurrected man can be DEAD.
Which means that everyone who will be resurrected will sin no more and to that effect have life.
To me, it appears that the judgement is NOW since there can be no judgement after because the wage has been paid.
Is there something I do not see?

I have no problem with the idea that the judgment is now. I believe it is . This is the judgment that has come into the world, that the Light has come and men have loved darkness rather than light.

Joh 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.


However, the Word also seems to indicate a further outworking, or perhaps you might say a continuing manifestation, of this judgment that is occurs at a later point in time. The prophets, Jesus, and every apostle refer to it. I can't see the language as all being symbolic when I read it in context, so as Paul said to Timothy- Some mens sins go before them into judgement, others sins will follow after(1 Tim 5:24).

I can't see forcing the words Now & Today( two of my  favorite words) to require the invention of an entirely new paradigm of speech that supersedes the language of Jesus and the apostles who also spoke both judgment now and of the judgment to come.

Therefore, while in the body in this present evil age we speak of what was, what is and what will be, and all of them are real, and none of them negates the other.

For example:

  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
 
  "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

  "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

  "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
(Joh 5:24-29)

  Jesus speaks of judgment suspended for believers ALREADY, IN THE NOW because they have passed from death unto life. This is our salvation as the Bride and Body and eclessia of God.

The hour is coming AND now is- the dead shall hear....and live. Future and present combined......yoked together, neither complete without the other. Those who hear in this hour will live, having passed from death unto life, having been translated from darkness into light and destined to awaken from their sleep in the moment and twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

Then there is "an hour that is coming"(notice- no and now is. Jesus speaks here of the resurrection of the dead and the end of the age- and of judgment to come.


Joh 3:19  "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

This refers to the reason for judgment from the beginning, as does Romans 1:18-20

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness(love darkness), because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them(light). For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse(judgment).
(Rom 1:18-20)





.....because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:31)


on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:16)

Mat 3:7  But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he(Jesus) said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Of course, you could say there has always been the light of day.... and you would be right. Today is the Day, if you are in it, abiding in the light. And is The DAY(eternal) swallowing the Night(temporal)?   Yes...it certainly is. But has it swallowed it yet? No, it has not- it is progressing through the ages, seasons, generations, and times.An administration suitable to the fulness of time, the summing up of all things in Christ. We do not yet see all things subjected unto Him.

  Did Jesus and the apostles create a new language to eliminate all references to the future outworking of the Father's plan through time? No, they did not! Are we so sophisticated that we will render all of that language according to some greater understanding than they possessed? I don't think so.

There are places where the Logos speaks by way of parable and there are places where he speaks by teaching and a disciple needs to kno the difference. Certainly, it is easy to deny the simple language of scripture by saying we have a more spiritual understanding- but saying it doesn't make it so :o).

I think it is simpler (and IMO truer) to say... "Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old." Mt 13:52

I think I understand your point but couldn't they be talking about the judgement that is always now because since Paul there has been tons of judgement and after us there will be a lot again until the day God is finished? So they were forced to use that language so it could be understood as continuing?

This comes from an understanding (which may be wrong) of a point Willie made a couple of times already about us being IN time and thus misunderstanding what is eternal as always now.

It may not be about a coming judgement but about judgement being made manifest.

Yes, I agree with that.... distinction....as a way of looking at it which I have no problem with, but... I don't think the apostles were forced to use certain words for the ignorance of others. IMO They spoke in the Logos, as Peter says "holy men moved of God spoke by the Spirit". I have the utmost respect for Willie and have gleaned many good things from his posts. But we don t see things alike on this point. Certainly I do agree that it will be the outworking of the judgment that is already in the Now,  Peace, John

But wasn't it the same LOGOS which let the men of Israel divorce their women because of their hard hearts?
Couldn't it be that some things said by Paul is milk because he was speaking to babies?
Not making it untrue but incomplete without the fuller revelation of one who has matured.

 :cloud9: Eaglesway, when I said the judgment was NOW, I didn't mean it to negate the future or rather ongoing judgment. When I say "now", for me it is not a instance of time, but rather of time-lessness of the Spirit, in which it is always NOW. Ah, the limitations of this medium..... :laughing7: Blessings....

Quote from: Quaesitor on September 27, 2010, 02:22:14 AM
But wasn't it the same LOGOS which let the men of Israel divorce their women because of their hard hearts?
Couldn't it be that some things said by Paul is milk because he was speaking to babies?
Not making it untrue but incomplete without the fuller revelation of one who has matured.

Yes actually, this is near  my main point (alas, the limitations of this medium ;o), as you stated Not untrue, but incomplete. Yet as I said once before.... we ought not treat it as it it were untrue then, even if we are seeing more deeply than another. Maturity cannot be force fed. The wisdom that is spoken among the mature is understood implicitly by the Spirit, "for it is the Spirit that searches even the deep things of God". But at no point, in my opinion, have we received in this age a revelation that makes the words of Christ and the apostles obsolete.
If we lose contact with ANY of the real living word it is a loss to the "whole counsel of God" that was delivered "once and for all" to the saints. Within the scope of that, I still feel it is an error to say authoritatively the judgment of the wicked is all complete in the NOW(if Now means no future outworking in time after this age), because the ages are as yet unfulfilled, and we see what is to come through a glass darkly. I personally don't think the adversaries will all be subjected for two or more ages to come. I agree that all the judgments of God are complete in the mind of God and finished in Christ, and we rest in that completion and enter the finished work the closer we get to maturity. By that definition of NOW God is still fulfilling these things in the "administration suitable to the fulness of times", so there is still judgment to come IMO.

The Logos is as complete a revelation as we will get in this age.  The whole matrix of the mystery of God is woven through it. Therefore, as I said before.... there is no fault in speaking in the language of the apostles and prophets without continually having to address these distinctions - they obviously understood such distinctions... they are the foundation stones, Christ being the chief cornerstone. We are being built upon them.

Jesus defined the limitations of the Logos under the law of Moses just as you quoted '...because of the hardness of your hearts". This incompletion was fulfilled "in Christ" and the "one new man".... "I will put my spirit in them and give them a new heart... I will take away their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh". This is the "glorious liberty of the sons of God" and the whole creation eagerly awaits it, but it will take some time yet ;o)

Eaglesway,
throughout the Scriptures the Lord seems fond of doing things suddenly!

Come quick Lord Jesus!