death:an ending?

[WhiteWings]

What about 1a....

Not acceptable.

A half-breed is still 2.

I won't give worship, which belongs to God alone, to Adam 1.0, nor will I give it to Adam 2.0

Isn't Jesus the Second Adam?
A whole new type I should add.

[Molly]

..the Word was God.

To avoid getting into a battle of semantics; God was the Word/The Word was God.

A child can understand it, as it should be understandable.

Jesus = The Word, God = The Word, God = Jesus.
The Word = Jesus, The Word = God, Jesus = God.

Assuming was is the correct translation.
A child can also understand being with someone doesn't mean to be that someone.


I added a part to post #217

ww, If you think that Jesus stood before God, you might as well become a Jehovah's Witness because they believe Jesus was an angel.

They have even changed their Bible to read ..the Word was a god.

[eaglesway]

Point received Cardinal

I have no problem with modalists, biblical unitarians or trinitarians- or anything in between.

These theological positions did not develop fully until centuries after the glory of God was fading from the "church".

I don't think anyone fully understands it..... I certainly will not throw any food at anyone over it :o)

Nor will I discuss it with anyone who demonstrates a propensity for throwing food at me :o)

If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead you will be saved- good enough for Paul.....

If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with one another.

[Molly]

What about 1a....

Not acceptable.

A half-breed is still 2.

I won't give worship, which belongs to God alone, to Adam 1.0, nor will I give it to Adam 2.0

Isn't Jesus the Second Adam?
A whole new type I should add.

Yes.  He's also the alpha and the omega and the beginning and the end and the root of David and Counselor, the Mighty God, the everlasting Father, the prince of Peace.

If you could actually keep it in your head all at the same time, your head would explode.  Which is why we try to put him in nice little [small] box.

[Lefein]

Whitewings, I edited my posts;

#221
#224

---

Molly  :thumbsup: Amen once more!

[WhiteWings]

unless you look at it in the "Trinity way"

Just a thought...What if it 'is' the "Trinity way"?

Then it is the Trinity way. Don't care. But I still have seen a conclusive answer.

Assuming was is the correct translation.

If you want to get into that...all we have of Greek scripture then must be assumption in translation of its sentences.

Agreed.
But I quoted my word meaning from Strong and Thayer. I think they are repected scholars. Also in mainstream church.
And they give several word meanings. Are they wrong? Are there really that much meanings for one word? Certainly that opens the door for pick and choose for all readers of Thayer/Strong/Bible

I have to draw the line somewhere.  And "was" is perfectly acceptable as far as I, and a great many others are concerned.  This isn't a word like Aion, which has been translated wrongfully into Eternity-Infinite duration of time through the Latinisation process.  This is a word that at its root, at the least has the capacity to mean "was", and at its best means it.

In my right hand I have a pencil to draw my lines and in the left hand I hold my eraser to correct the wrong lines. I've drawn my Trinity line but not with a permanent marker.
My interpretation is let's call it possibly supported by lexicon. It doesn't conflict with for example the verses WillieH quoted. And is less problematic in relation to the Jesus was ill discussion. :2c:
:help:

Out of curiousity...

It is important that Jesus be God, since he is worshiped.  Hence my position.

But, why is it important that Jesus not be God?  Your position.

My position is simple.
Jesus is what the Bible says. Should I fight the Bible?
BTW Jesus said 'pray in this manner'.....
You my like to read this article.
Summary:
God is worshipped as the creator.
Jesus is worshipped, not as the creator, but as the one who redeemed men TO GOD.
Finally, at the end of the chapter, God and Christ are worshipped together, but as two distinctly different beings.

[Molly]

Jesus is worshipped, not as the creator, but as the one who redeemed men TO GOD.

Jesus is the Creator.

For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Colossians 1:16).



10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
--John 1

[Lefein]

And they give several word meanings. Are they wrong? Are there really that much meanings for one word? Certainly that opens the door for pick and choose for all readers of Thayer/Strong/Bible

One of those words, is "was".

In my right hand...

The line I was drawing was not in regards to interpretation, but was in regards to the validity of Scriptural translations, and their reliability.  In a world where things may not mean what they mean, I have to draw the line somewhere and say; "No more, 1=1, and a fish is indeed a fish."

My position is simple.
Jesus is what the Bible says. Should I fight the Bible?

From what I've read, it says Jesus is God.

Finally, at the end of the chapter, God and Christ are worshipped together, but as two distinctly different beings.

That is bi-theism (polytheism but with two worshiped deities)

[jabcat]

Quote from: Cardinal on Today at 08:31:32 AM
I agree Eaglesway; there are many sacred cows to BBQ, probably more to discover even yet, with the Spirit's opening of our eyes.

BUT; as much as I personally enjoy reading different viewpoints on this, please be mindful that the board owner does not want any food fights started over the trinity issue.

EVERYONE please keep it RESPECTFUL towards each other, remembering that what you believed yesterday SHOULD always be open to be changed today, if you're heart is open to the Spirit, and of course I include myself in that, as I have had to lay down many things I thought were true over the course of time.
Blessings....
-----------------


Amen Card.  Can we all agree that Jesus is God's Son, and the Savior of the world?  Further, please consider this.  At the very basic level, if someone is someone else's son, they are of the same substance of the Father.  My own son has my spit, my blood, my skin.

Jesus called the Father His God, but as I understand, that doesn't mean Jesus isn't also Divine.  He's the Son OF THE Father - a part of Him - not just an acquaintance of the Father.  Again, can that bridge any gaps for anyone and get the focus back on Who He is - the Savior?  God bless.

[Molly]

Again, can that bridge any gaps for anyone and get the focus back on Who He is - the Savior?  God bless.

As a Catholic said to me, 'You mean Jesus existed before he was born in the manger?"

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


Isaiah 45:15
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

[WhiteWings]

And they give several word meanings. Are they wrong? Are there really that much meanings for one word? Certainly that opens the door for pick and choose for all readers of Thayer/Strong/Bible

One of those words, is "was".

#217

In my right hand...

The line I was drawing was not in regards to interpretation, but was in regards to the validity of Scriptural translations, and their reliability.  In a world where things may not mean what they mean, I have to draw the line somewhere and say; "No more, 1=1, and a fish is indeed a fish."

But what if the Greek actually reads dog? And that exactly is the point. Not to change a fish into a dog but tho figure out if HS inspired dog or fish.
Not what the pope, newspaper, Oprah etc said about that verse.

Finally, at the end of the chapter, God and Christ are worshipped together, but as two distinctly different beings.

That is bi-theism (polytheism but with two worshiped deities)

Yeah, but not at the same level. And for the same things.
Jesus Himself always said things like "thanks to Father" "by Father" "Bless Father" "Worship Father" etc. But He never said "Worship me"

[eaglesway]

Mainstream theology provides me with no comfort or consolation because it is mainstream religion that rejects the mysteries of God including UR.

Only the Word (unencumbered by terms that have come to be equated with truth- but never were spoken by the apostles or prophets) comforts me. Mainstream Christianity is a desert.

The doctrine of the trinity was mainly started by Origen(254 ad). He was the first to really define it in a systematic way and attach the understanding of it to salvation. However, he was later made a heretic. In his trinity there was a hierarchy- the Father being supreme and the Son being subservient(Certainly some scriptures allow for that possibility). To this day there are those who believe that way and have tried to get Origen "rehabilitated" and his view allowed. Origen also happened to believe in Universal Reconiliation.

So what do you say? Origen, who believed in the trinity concept- maybe even invented(or recognized it, or defined it, depending on your point of view) did not believe the Son to be co-equal with the Father. Who decided a couple of decades or centuries later that he was a heretic. Was it God? the Holy Spirit? hmmmmmm I dunno- makes no sense to me. The doctrine did not reach its contemporary form until nearly 500 AD. Took God awhile to figure out what He wanted His people to teach and He brought that final icon(the Trinity) to His people via Rome- murders and expellers of all that is holy- (well, at least in those times and for at least 1000 years more).

From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

http://www.iep.utm.edu/origen-of-alexandria/

On First Principles
In this work Origen establishes his main doctrines, including that of the Holy Trinity (based upon standard Middle Platonic triadic emanation schemas); the pre-existence and fall of souls; multiple ages and transmigration of souls; and the eventual restoration of all souls to a state of dynamic perfection in proximity to the godhead.




This next web-site presents most of the different views on the Godhead. There is some interesting info in there -if anyone is interested in any other view than their own(joke heh heh)

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/trinity1.html

[Lefein]

#217

En = State of being, for all intents and purposes.

John 1:1

En arche en o logos kai o logos en pros ton theon kai theos en o logos.

In original(beginning) was the saying(word) and the saying(word) was pros(toward) the God and God was the saying(word)

---<>---

Regarding: "En"

Matthew 1:18

tou de iesou christou he gennesis houtos (en) mnesteutheisis.

of-the yet Jesus anointed the generating/birth thus (was) of being espoused

Matthew 2:9

heos elthon heste epano hou (en) to paidion

till soming it-stood where (was) the little-boy

Matthew 2:15

kai (en) ekei heos tes teleutes herodou

and he-(was) there til of-the decease of herod

Matthew 3:4

he de trophe autou (en) akrides

the yet nuture[nourishment] of-him (was) locusts

Matthew 7:27

kai epesen kai (en) he ptosis autes

and it/she-falls and (was) the fall of her

Was = state of being, it doesn't matter how you mix it.

But what if the Greek actually reads dog? And that exactly is the point. Not to change a fish into a dog but tho figure out if HS inspired dog or fish.
Not what the pope, newspaper, Oprah etc said about that verse.

You've missed the point.

Yeah, but not at the same level. And for the same things.
Jesus Himself always said things like "thanks to Father" "by Father" "Bless Father" "Worship Father" etc. But He never said "Worship me"

It is still then bi-theism, and idolatry, and paganism; sinful, offensive to God to worship Jesus in any way, if Jesus is not God.  Since Jesus is worshiped in the Bible.

[WhiteWings]

The line I was drawing was not in regards to interpretation, but was in regards to the validity of Scriptural translations, and their reliability.  In a world where things may not mean what they mean, I have to draw the line somewhere and say; "No more, 1=1, and a fish is indeed a fish."

But what if the Greek actually reads dog? And that exactly is the point. Not to change a fish into a dog but tho figure out if HS inspired dog or fish.

Another related thing to translation and trinity is the this article: Did Jesus create?

Another thing that points to Father and Son as two is this verse:
^TCBJohn 1
10 He was in the  world, and the world came into being through Him, but the world didn't know Him.

For me through means via. Meaning at least 2 things. This is not the only translation that uses through. Below all electronic verses I use:
EBR 10 In the world, he was, and, the world, through him, came into existence, and, the world, knew him not.
KJV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
YLT 10 in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him:
ACV 10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not.
ASV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
BBE 10 He was in the world, the world which came into being through him, but the world had no knowledge of him.
BSV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
CAB 10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him, and the world did not know Him.
CLV In the world He was, and the world came into being through Him, and the world knew Him not.
CPDV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not recognize him.
Darby 10 He was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not.
DRC 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
ECB 10 He was in the cosmos and through him the cosmos became; and the cosmos knows him not:
ERRB 10 He was in the world cosmos , and the world was made by cosmos became through him, and the world cosmos knew him not.
ERV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
HNV 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him.
JST 10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
jubl2000 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
NET 10 He was in the world, and the world was created by him, but the world did not recognize him.
NHEB 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not recognize him.
NHEBME 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world did not recognize him.
Noyes 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
Nsb.zefania 10 The world was made through him. He was in the world and the world did not recognize him.
RWebster 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
SLT 10 He was in the world, and the world was by him, and the world knew him not.
WEB 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world didn't recognize him.
Webster 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

And that fits nicely with image=outline of light -> We are created in the image/outline of Jesus

[Lefein]

Blue is still Light.

Jesus is still God.

[Molly]

The doctrine of the trinity was mainly started by Origen(254 ad). He was the first to really define it in a systematic way and attach the understanding of it to salvation. However, he was later made a heretic. In his trinity there was a hierarchy- the Father being supreme and the Son being subservient(Certainly some scriptures allow for that possibility).

You could certainly give me scripture to show the hierarchy.  And, for every scripture you give, I could give you one to show they are the same and they are equal.

I worship one God.

The problem with any doctrine is that it tries to give a summary, a definition, and with God, that seems to fail.

That's why we read the Bible, because it has to knead into our spirit, until everything is revealed.

[Molly]

TCBJohn 1
10 He was in the  world, and the world came into being through Him, but the world didn't know Him.

That verse and Colossians 1--everything was created by him, through him, for him, in him--

How many ways can you slice an apple?

Did we cover all the bases?

[WhiteWings]

Blue is still Light.

Jesus is still God.

And who was the Light...
^YLTJohn 1
6 There came a man--having been sent from God--whose name is John,
7 this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him;
8 that one was not the Light, but--that he might testify about the Light.
9 He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world;

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Cardinal on Today at 08:31:32 AM
I agree Eaglesway; there are many sacred cows to BBQ, probably more to discover even yet, with the Spirit's opening of our eyes.

BUT; as much as I personally enjoy reading different viewpoints on this, please be mindful that the board owner does not want any food fights started over the trinity issue.

EVERYONE please keep it RESPECTFUL towards each other, remembering that what you believed yesterday SHOULD always be open to be changed today, if you're heart is open to the Spirit, and of course I include myself in that, as I have had to lay down many things I thought were true over the course of time.
Blessings....
-----------------


Amen Card.  Can we all agree that Jesus is God's Son, and the Savior of the world?  Further, please consider this.  At the very basic level, if someone is someone else's son, they are of the same substance of the Father.  My own son has my spit, my blood, my skin.

Jesus called the Father His God, but as I understand, that doesn't mean Jesus isn't also Divine.  He's the Son OF THE Father - a part of Him - not just an acquaintance of the Father.  Again, can that bridge any gaps for anyone and get the focus back on Who He is - the Savior?  God bless.

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

And who was the Light...

Keep going..


9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


John was the [angelic] witness to Jesus.  That was his only function.  He did it.  And, then he died.

Take a look at this prophecy--


Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.


And who does John say he is?


Matthew 3:3
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

[WhiteWings]

the board owner does not want any food fights started over the trinity issue.

What about fire and brimstone? I'll behave in the last hour before I'll go into darkness again  :icon_jokercolor:

[thinktank]

Jesus called the Father His God, but as I understand, that doesn't mean Jesus isn't also Divine.  He's the Son OF THE Father - a part of Him - not just an acquaintance of the Father.  Again, can that bridge any gaps for anyone and get the focus back on Who He is - the Savior?  God bless.
jabcat



You know I refer to my God as father and women often call me "divine"  :msealed:  :Whistle:

:Chinscratch: do you think  :mshock:  no.. it can't be.. surely.. nah.. im much to evil to care for all of humanity  :beerburp:   :soccer: :icon_joker:

[Lefein]

And who was the Light...

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

-KJV

True Light = Jesus = Light = God = Light = Jesus = True Light

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

[thinktank]

the board owner does not want any food fights started over the trinity issue.

What about fire and brimstone? I'll behave in the last hour before I'll go into darkness again  :icon_jokercolor:

Chained  :msealed: for a thousand years?   :msealed:  Perhaps that's a bit too long  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

the board owner does not want any food fights started over the trinity issue.

What about fire and brimstone? I'll behave in the last hour before I'll go into darkness again  :icon_jokercolor:

Chained  :msealed: for a thousand years?   :msealed:  Perhaps that's a bit too long  :laughing7:

Usally I :lazy: 4-6 hours (during night :winkgrin:)
But be honest with me Mr. T. You would like it to be a thousand years. And after that EDified :popout: