death:an ending?

[WhiteWings]

about what's written.

Problem is, it isn't written.[/quote]According to you.

But I also believe He can relate to crucified people without being crucified.

Then it is settled, he never had to get sick, and for Sola Sciptura's mentioning; he never was.

Do you truely don't have a clue what I mean?
You say Jesus doesn't have to have an infection to understand what an infection is (I agree with that)
I say Jesus doesn't have to be crucified to understand how horrible it is.
But He was crucified. So knowing crucifixion didn't mean He wouldn't be crucified.
So it simply means Jesus knew about countless diseases and crimes but that doesn't mean He had to literally endure them all.
But neither does it mean He had to endure none.

Question: Who is on teh straight road?

Not to sound arrogant, but I'd believe based on a system of two or three witnesses that it is I who am on the road to truth, straight or not.
1: Logical reasoning says that God incarnate can't get sick if he's able to heal people by his very shadow.

Seems your logic is flawed Lefein.
Logic reasoning says God incarnate can't die.
Logic reasoning says God incarnate wouldn't let Himself be treated like dirt.
Logic reasoning says God incarnate wouldn't be a servant.
Logic reasoning says God incarnate wouldn't let Himself to be denied access to the Holy of Holies.
Etc.
But still all those things happened.

2: Common sense says that if no scriptures mention him being specifically ill, then it must be assumed that he was healthy.

Good you used the word "if".

3: Sola Scriptura

I gave you that. That you reject that is something different.

4: He has the power to lay down his life, and take it up again, heal the sick, raise the dead, make crumbs of bread and filet of fish into a buffet for thousands, he created the Earth, he transfigured before his disciples, he was pretty darn smart...he turned water into wine...

See point 1

I think I can have a great deal of faith in the fact that he can keep himself from getting a sniffle or two in his lifetime.

Can, yes. He also could have avoid to get crucified. So "can" is not the discussion. I fully agree He could have cured Himself or even avoid to get ill at all.

I have  four witnesses right off the top of my head,

Seems you just lost them :winkgrin:

You have stretched verses, and a few scholars that I don't even think I can trust.

What a suprise.

Then I state based on several verses and many Jewish scholars I state: Jesus was ill.

Those verses are so far stretched that I'd have an easier time proving that Peter was Satan incarnate...

And Jewish Scholars?  Are these Judaic scholars who would do anything to prove Christ isn't the Messiah?

That's not relevant. What what is relevant is that they did and still do believe one of the signs of the Messiah is that He is ill and weak.
(BTW not only Jewish)

Did Jesus have to die to understand death?
Did He have to be crucified to to know how it feels?
Did He even have to be born to know how our life is?
Did He ..... etc

He's God, he did not.  But you are the one claiming he had to get sick in order to fulfill obedience...Not me.

a] I didn't mention obedience.
b] I didn't say He had to be sick for whatever reason.

I just said He was sick.

He's God, he did not.

Another quote that shows you have no idea what I'm trying to say. You use "He's God" as proof for something. (or to avoid my point). But in reality it proves absolutely nothing. Although He knew all things He still came to earth and first hand experienced many things.
So if you agree that Jesus died on the cross you agree Jesus literally experienced something that He already knew as Son of God.
So that proves that Jesus experienced certain things literally.
Crucifixion for example. I think/hope we can agree on that?
So my point is that because Jesus suffered on the cross proves that knowing many things doesn't equal not having to experience then literally.
So we can't use "He's God incarnate" to (dis)prove things (in this discussion).

So your point is moot.

:happygrin:

[willieH]

This is nothing but an attempt to enflame and bait...

My apologies...I suppose saying that God the Healer was disease riddled isn't destructive, faith killing blasphemy that kicks Jesus right in the face like the rest of the Pharisees who tried to bring God down to their dead, filthy, sin encrusted level...

Forgive me Father, for the next time I want the topic to be changed to something that is WORTH your attention...rather than pale attempts to make your almighty majesty after the image of sinful, powerless Man.  Forgive me Father, for being bold enough to stand for you, and to stand for who you are!  That great I AM!

FIRST --- Be honest brother, ...No apologies are made by you here...  :sigh:   Just another attempt at flaming...  :sigh:

SECOND --- It is not up to YOU to decide that which GOD finds worthy of His attention...

CHRIST died for the UNGODLY while we were YET SINNERS... which should tell anyone with any observation ability whatsoever, that SINNERS are at the TOP of His "ATTENTION LIST"...  :dontknow:

THIRD --- If you wish a new topic to be generated, then do so, already.

As far as the "divinity" of JESUS, ...it is a matter of perception as well as CAREFUL examination of the Scriptures and what they SAY, as to whether JESUS is "God" or not.  

If Jesus isn't divine, then Christianity is a liar, and a whore...

You have little foundation for such words... CHRIST is what HE said He was, the SON of GOD, ...NOT... God Himself.

I'll thank you not to come so close to blaspheming my Father.

Not meaning to insult you Lefein, but I don't know who your father is, why would I seek to offend him?  :scratchhead:  

As for me, my father is YHVH God... according to HIM and His WORD, His SON JESUS CHRIST and the Apostle Paul, ...He is the ONLY GOD that exists -- Isaiah 46:9 -- 45:18, 21-23 --  43:10-11 -- Matt 19:17 -- Mark 15:34 -- Eph 1:3

I asked legitimate questions, which you are either unwilling or unable to answer... and to be honest

No, its because of your post format. I refuse to answer them until I can read them[/b][/color].

It's really pretty easy, ...if you can't read my posts, then why answer them at all, brother?  This is just a post filled with more excuses. :pitiful:

You answer like someone quite embittered...  CHRIST taught to bless and love those that your perception sees as enemy to you -- Matt 5:44-48 -- and thereby you would be PERFECT, ...AS the Father in Heaven, ...is PERFECT...  You hardly answer me in alignment with that teaching.

I continue to stand where I stood before... the questions are legitimate, LEGIBLE and Scripturally based.  :nod:

If you do not wish to respond to them, ...then don't!  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

I heard a long time ago that all disease comes from 38 "root" diseases, which someone else (don't remember who) pointed out corresponds with 38 stripes He received.... and thus we are HEALED BY HIS STRIPES. Wow.....Blessings....

So stripes are not (only) marks from a whip? (or nails marks from the cross)
If you can dig up that article.....

[jabcat]

I heard a long time ago that all disease comes from 38 "root" diseases, which someone else (don't remember who) pointed out corresponds with 38 stripes He received.... and thus we are HEALED BY HIS STRIPES. Wow.....Blessings....

So stripes are not (only) marks from a whip? (or nails marks from the cross)
If you can dig up that article.....

Haven't heard this before, but I think there must be literal, symbolic, and spiritual applications. 

[micah7:9]

Well, I for one must admit that I meant good. The way you WillieH brought The Word and set in on the table has caused me to look at my thoughts in a different light. I had read L. Ray Smith and had agreed with him, but never really carried home to my heart. When it was brought out today by WW I became a defender of Jesus and well I was frustrated to read someone say that Jesus was sickly, I knew He had to relate and be aware of infirmity, well I was blind to my own knowledge. Thank you. WillieH WW and Cardnial that about the "38" is beautiful. (I hope I said all that with some clarity)
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Lefein]

I'll just say it plainly...

The Holy Bible never once says that Jesus was sick a day in his life...Therefore, he was healthy.

To say that Jesus Christ, The Healer was riddled with disease - is blasphemy.

And Jesus is God!

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm < a quick reference for guidance...

[WhiteWings]

I heard a long time ago that all disease comes from 38 "root" diseases, which someone else (don't remember who) pointed out corresponds with 38 stripes He received.... and thus we are HEALED BY HIS STRIPES. Wow.....Blessings....

So stripes are not (only) marks from a whip? (or nails marks from the cross)
If you can dig up that article.....

Haven't heard this before, but I think there must be literal, symbolic, and spiritual applications. 

I Googled a but found very little. Only people making a quick reference to it. No explanations. But >50% write about 39 instead of 38.
The best link I could find isn't even a Bibical based link: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/146885.html

[WhiteWings]

I'll just say it plainly...

The Holy Bible never once says that Jesus was sick a day in his life...Therefore, he was healthy.

To say that Jesus Christ, The Healer was riddled with disease - is blasphemy.

And Jesus is God!

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm < a quick reference for guidance...

So God, who is eternal, was dead for 3 days and 3 nights?

[Lefein]

Was Abraham, Issac, and Jacob dead in Sheol?

Is God not the God of the living? -Jesus vs. Sadducees.

I am pretty sure that Jesus being the Eternal God in Flesh can be devoid of his body, freeing the disembodied who are in Sheol, defeating Death, and still be pretty darn eternal, being a spirit and all.

The body is a garment...not the person...God isn't above running around "Naked" to serve his purposes.

[WhiteWings]

So Jesus died on the cross means Jesus didn't really die but stepped out of His garment and the went to sheol?
And you accuse me of not reading what's plainly written?

It has become very clear to me why you have so much trouble accepting verses that show Jesus was sick.

I just see things otherwise for a very good reason. Let Him decide my view is blaspheme or not. Not you. Ok?


Now let's continue with something useful and worthy of His attention

did you notice that the Greek word "choliy" was used THIRTY EIGHT times???  :mshock:

I heard a long time ago that all disease comes from 38 "root" diseases, which someone else (don't remember who) pointed out corresponds with 38 stripes He received.... and thus we are HEALED BY HIS STRIPES. Wow.....Blessings....

[Molly]

I do not think it is as "silent" as you might propose... Here is a bit of what L. Ray Smith has written on this ...the entire article is quite extensive and can be found here:

http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html

L. Ray Smith (Hell is a Christian hoax):

Here's how the Concordant Literal Old Testament translates Isa. 53:2:

"NO shape has He NOR honor when we shall see Him, And NO appearance NOR loveliness that we will covet [desire] Him."

See what I mean? "Who has believed our [Isaiah's] report?" We just read it, but will you believe it? God said through Isaiah that the coming Messiah (Jesus the Christ) would be fragile and have absolutely NO COMELINESS, NO GOOD LOOKS, that anyone would ever "desire Him."

Say, has anyone ever noticed Isa.53, verse 3? "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief" [Heb: 'choliy,' also defined as, "malady, disease, and sickness" (Dr. Strong's Hebrew Dictionary). Let's look at a couple of other translations of verse 3:

"A Man of pains and knowing ILLNESS." (Concordant Literal Old Testament).

"Man of pains, and familiar with SICKNESS" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

"A Man of suffering, accustomed to INFIRMITY" (The New American Bible For Catholics).

"A Man of pain, Who knew what SICKNESS was" (James Moffett Translation).

Of the 38 times that this Hebrew word 'choliy' and it's root appear in Scripture, 33 times it is translated as "sick, sickness, or disease." Are you beginning to see something about Jesus you didn't know before? Imagine that: Not only was Jesus not handsome, but was also familiar with and accustomed to "sickness & disease." Let's look at some New Testament proof of Jesus' sickness & disease:

And He [Jesus] said unto them [religious leaders and congregation], "Ye ['Ye' means 'ALL of you'] will surely say unto ME this proverb, Physician [Jesus is the Great Physician], heal Thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country [Jesus healed many in Capernaum, and now they want to see Jesus HEAL HIMSELF].

"And He said... No prophet is accepted in his own country... many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah... But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto Sarepta... a widow. And many lepers... and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman... And all they in the synagogue [the congregation and Church leaders], when they heard these things, were filled with wrath... and thrust Him out of the city, and led Him unto the brow of the hill where their city was built, that they might cast Him down headlong" (Lk. 4:23-28).

Alright, I admit I cried all the way through this.  I had already accepted that he that was without sin had to bear [carry] our sins--the innocent suffering and dying for the guilty--but this is just too much for me to bear.  I'm also sure it's true.

What can I say?  Except that how much he loves us never ceases to astonish me.

You know what it says?  The LORD laid on him the iniquity of us all, and with his stripes we are healed--made whole--because he carries it all for us.  When he said to Paul, why are you doing this to ME, he meant it.

No wonder Paul could never forgive himself.

[micah7:9]

After reading L.Ray Smith again and the way WillieH layed it out, see things different. I feel I, as I believe many others want to see Jesus as this virile man of men who walked in the midst of God's creation just a little above (not in arrogance) who was not touched by man problems, but that is our(my) carnal err.
Jesus came down in the form and likeness of earthy man, that being true then He would not be above the infirmities of the flesh body. Yet He was and would be tempted, the same as man, but sinned not. No, it now makes me humbly proud to know that Jesus, the man not only knew of my diseases, but probably walked among men having signs of this dying body of earthy man,
and those who met and saw him could see the infirimities. He bore these in His body, ALL of them....by His stripes........
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Beloved Servant]

I don't believe for one second that Jesus got sick. Never.

He could control time and space as the Living Word of God.

He willingly accepted the curse and it was laid upon Him.

[Lefein]

So Jesus died on the cross means Jesus didn't really die but stepped out of His garment and the went to sheol?

...That is exactly what "physical death" is.  I am not my body, my body is a temple, a garment...it is nothing more than a shell, and a covering for ME My spirit.

And you accuse me of not reading what's plainly written?

Now I accuse you of not even knowing what it is to be "physically dead"...

It has become very clear to me why you have so much trouble accepting verses that show Jesus was sick.

A: You have absolutely no scriptures, you haven't even quoted "them" in any single acceptable manner, for the sake of basic solidity, I'd like to see some KJV...something that the majority of English speaking Christendom would accept.  I'm still waiting for a verse that specifically states that Jesus was sick, not your half-twisted assumptions based on Jesus bearing our illnesses.

B: Because it is blasphemy, and a hideous insult to the power of God to keep his own body properly maintained.  It makes the pure manifestation of God in Flesh unclean.

I just see things otherwise for a very good reason. Let Him decide my view is blaspheme or not. Not you. Ok?

When I see heinous error.  I'll call it out.  Truth isn't relevant.

Deu 17:1  Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Mal 1:8  And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 1:13  Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

That includes the Paschal Lamb - That includes Jesus Christ.

[Molly]

It makes the pure manifestation of God in Flesh unclean.

9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

--Acts 10


Nothing could possibly make Jesus unclean because he is the cleanser.  That's the whole point.  That's why he is able to minister to those outside the camp.  That's why he is able to carry the sin of the world

Isn't it remarkable how reminiscent this vision of Peter's is of the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven?

[Lefein]

Christ was under The Law, the law determined cleanliness until Christ's Passion was settled and he gave up the ghost, not the law of grace and inclusion of gentiles.

A sickly Jesus is an unfit sacrifice - unaccepted sacrifice, and we are dead in our sins.

[WhiteWings]

A: You have absolutely no scriptures, you haven't even quoted "them" in any single acceptable manner, for the sake of basic solidity, I'd like to see some KJV...something that the majority of English speaking Christendom would accept.  I'm still waiting for a verse that specifically states that Jesus was sick, not your half-twisted assumptions based on Jesus bearing our illnesses.

I gave you verses. There is no use to copy and paste them again because I don't know what the Lefein approved way of quoting is.
I could also quote word meanings from Strong, Thayer or Brown-Driver-Briggs. But likely they are not approved by you either.
WillieH and Jabcat both posted links to relevant articles so no need for me to post those links again.
You didn't state  the KJV version so I just give you one verse that you can read in your approved version: Luke 4:23
Oh, sorry that verse is half-twisted at best.

Thanks for another entertaining read Lefein :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

What I want from you is a solid list of verses that say Jesus was sick, not verses that barely touch on the topic of it by stating that he bore our illnesses.  You haven't provided!

I don't want articles that cleverly hide everything under piles of trash.  I want it laid out plain, simple, and without garnish.

I say KJV, not because it is what I approve, it is because it is the common standard for Christian study.

As for the proverb from Luke; That is exactly what I'm talking about, you base your doctrinal statement of Jesus being sickly on a pure assumption that I am quite confident has nothing to even do with him being sick, but has everything to do with his display of power based on the context of the surrounding verses.

I want some common sense, basic Biblical understanding, and I'd really like to see at least half an effort on your part to A: actually study the word, and B: Present it properly.

This whole sham of Jesus being sick is pure assumption, based on bad inferences, and bad doctrinal reasoning.  Any sicknesses that where in, or on the body of Christ in flesh was during the Passion when by his stripes where where healed.  That has Biblical standing...Saying he was a sickly man?  Is a lie.

To slander Jesus Christ by saying he was a sickly man is to try and pull him down to our own sin encrusted level, and to make him after our own image instead of Jesus Christ coming down on his own Father given volition, to do his own Father given purposes as he and Father see fit; as should be!

It is dis-edifying to make Jesus The Healer a victim of disease.

Thanks for another entertaining read Lefein

May The Lord deal with you.

[Molly]

Christ was under The Law, the law determined cleanliness until Christ's Passion was settled and he gave up the ghost, not the law of grace and inclusion of gentiles.

A sickly Jesus is an unfit sacrifice - unaccepted sacrifice, and we are dead in our sins.

I know what you mean.  But so is a sinful Jesus?  Yet he was without sin even though, even as,  he bore our sins.

There is a chemistry or a metaphysics going on here.  You put your finger on it.  He is cleansing that which is unclean by coming into direct contact with it.

You remember YHWH sent Cain away from his presence because of what Cain had done.  Cain could no longer be in the presence of God.  God can not be in the presence of sin.   But, now Cain could be in the presence of Jesus and cleansed, yes?  Jesus tells his disciples he needs to wash their feet because that is only part of them that is still unclean.

John 13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

[Lefein]

There is a difference between bearing something, and being invaded/diseased by it.

I can bear the burden of depression, but that doesn't mean the depression is from within my own being.

I can bear the sin of a person, but that doesn't mean the sin is from within my own being, or resides in my being.

[micah7:9]

Christ was under The Law, the law determined cleanliness until Christ's Passion was settled and he gave up the ghost, not the law of grace and inclusion of gentiles.

A sickly Jesus is an unfit sacrifice - unaccepted sacrifice, and we are dead in our sins.

As far as I know having a illness, being sick, having infirmities of the body(flesh) having nothing to do with being "without spot or wrinkle" Eph.5:27 (I believe the spot and wrinkle have to do with sin) Jesus died for the SINS of the world. If being sick in body disqualifies for salvation then we do have a problem. You said right this body is a garment to take off, being sick in body has nothing to do with sin. It seems to me you are looking at Jesus more as your superhero than the Saviour of the World

[Molly]

There is a difference between bearing something, and being invaded/diseased by it.

But, that again is the point.  I'm not saying you have to accept this.  It's just something for you to consider.  For myself, I've never understood those passages in Isa 53 so clearly before.

If the body of Jesus was carrying our [propensity for] illness, it is clear he was not invaded by it.  It didn't stop him from what he needed to do.

I forget, are you the doctor?  Regardless, I have a doc friend who is chronically ill himself, and yet he ignores it and goes about healing everyone else in his characteristically brilliant fashion.  It doesn't stop him from doing what he has to do.  I immediately thought of him when this subject was brought up.

You know, again, a doctor interacts with very sick people all day, and then he washes his hands.  It doesn't affect him or make him unclean to interact with them.

[micah7:9]

There is a difference between bearing something, and being invaded/diseased by it.

But, that again is the point.  I'm not saying you have to accept this.  It's just something for you to consider.  For myself, I've never understood those passages in Isa 53 so clearly before.

If the body of Jesus was carrying our [propensity for] illness, it is clear he was not invaded by it.  It didn't stop him from what he needed to do.

I forget, are you the doctor?  Regardless, I have a doc friend who is chronically ill himself, and yet he ignores it and goes about healing everyone else in his characteristically brilliant fashion.  It doesn't stop him from doing what he has to do.  I immediately thought of him when this subject was brought up.

You know, again, a doctor interacts with very sick people all day, and then he washes his hands.  It doesn't affect him or make him unclean to interact with them.

:thumbsup:

[Lefein]

As far as I know having a illness, being sick, having infirmities of the body(flesh) having nothing to do with being "without spot or wrinkle" Eph.5:27 (I believe the spot and wrinkle have to do with sin)

Deu 17:1  Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Mal 1:8  And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.

Mal 1:13  Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.

Jesus died for the SINS of the world. If being sick in body disqualifies for salvation then we do have a problem.

Nothing disqualifies one for Salvation - save being righteous.  But being sick disqualifies one for being a holy sacrifice under The Law - Christ was that sacrifice which allowed Salvation.

If he was sickly, then his sacrifice was, and is in absolute vanity, and we are dead in our sins.

You said right this body is a garment to take off, being sick in body has nothing to do with sin.

It has everything to do with cleanliness under The Law.

It seems to me you are looking at Jesus more as your superhero than the Saviour of the World

Aside from him being my hero in general; it is not a shame to me to stand for the cleanliness, holiness, and power of My Father incarnate.

and also:

It seems to me you are looking at Jesus more as your superhero than the Saviour of the World

What do you think super heroes do?! o_o

<>----<>----<>----<>

He is the Saviour of the world, he isn't a pitiful wretch riddled with disease like some here would make him out to be.

Christ is God in the Flesh - I'll accept nothing less than his perfection, and perfect cleanliness, because that is what God himself expects and calls men to strive for.

________________

If the body of Jesus was carrying our [propensity for] illness, it is clear he was not invaded by it.

You can carry the sickness of someone, without being sick.  That is my whole point.

Christ carried the sentence of guilt, yet he was not guilty.

I forget, are you the doctor?  Regardless, I have a doc friend who is chronically ill himself, and yet he ignores it and goes about healing everyone else in his characteristically brilliant fashion.  It doesn't stop him from doing what he has to do.  I immediately thought of him when this subject was brought up.

The difference is, your doctor friend isn't Jesus.  Your doctor friend is not a clean sacrifice, under The Law, or over it - for the sins of humanity.

I'd never accept the sacrifice of your doctor friend for my sins, because he doesn't have the power to forgive himself (let alone others) by reason of being unclean under The Law - providing we where still under The Law, and such a thing was required.

[micah7:9]

Bitterness, anger, and weaknes is what I am hearing. Jesus was no weaker because He became sick. Jesus is the ultimate OVERCOMER.
G3528
From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.G3529
Apparently a primary word; conquest (abstractly), that is, (figuratively) the means of success: - victory.
one cant overcome, subdue, conquer, prevail,get victory UNLESS ONE HAD SOMETHING TO overcome, subdue, conquer, prevail,get victory.