death:an ending?

[thinktank]

So you are saying Jesus possibly was sick.


I don't believe that Jesus suffered, colds, flu, broken ankles, because his father allways hears his sons request and he is the great healer, but that he suffered emotionally seeing the suffering all around him, he cried when Lazarus died etc, this is the aflictions he came across, the long journeys in the desert going from town to town, fasting with great hunger, the terror of the cross, when he was in the garden he sweated blood, the physical pain of being whipped, by his stripes we are healed, the humiliation of being spat on and struck by mortal man, the humiliation of being cruxified next to two thieves, so the sickness he bore was not the fraility of the flesh but rather the stress and opposition that he encountered on his travels.

The two witnesses in revelation are seen as being dressed in sackcloth, this is not a picture of someone you say would be in great health, but someone you would describe as one who was in affliction and great sorrow, and that is our lord Jesus christ, who was a man of sorrows and griefs and was tempted as we are but yet without sin, the constant temptation would have worn him out and he would need to pray constantly to replenish his strength, but due to the anointing upon him, that sustained him, kept him healthy and allowed others such as the women who had the issue of blood to be completely healed by merely touching him, such is the power of anointing that he had upon him/within him, so how can a cold virus even have any hope to survive in such a powerful anointed body, nay the anointing would vaporize it and any other sickness including cancer.


It's good people of all colors and religions are healty, don't get me wrong. But is it a right given by God?

It is a God given right, but we must fight for it, for not all are born in this world are healthy. But for those, the lord told us to heal the broken hearted, to set the captives free, to set them at liberty, we must also strive to obey the commandments, for there are promises of keeping us in good health and keep us from evil if we obey the commandments.


I was not implying that. If you somehow read that in my post I now clearly state: "I was, and am, not implying that."

Thanks for clearing that up, but I know how the enemy operates and he works behind closed doors without us realizing or coopearating and what you said can potentially plant destructive seed in the minds of Christians if they are not carefull. I am merely being carefull and revealing what's on my mind, so forgive me for any offence caused.


In case you wonder it's also not my opinion being ill must be a punishment for sins.
I hope that clears it up....

Sin does bring it's various results but I believe that repentance and living right can overturn the life of sin, so that smokers etc if they repent and live right can be restored spiritually and their physical lungs, heart, chest restored. But I also agree with you, as Christ said to those people that died, suppose they were siners above all else, nay, but if ya likewise don't repent ya shall also perish.

[Quaesitor]

I really don't understand the whole point here. :dontknow:

Ok maybe I shouldn't participate then. :winkgrin:

But I really wonder...what's the point if he was sick or not?

My opinion is that he may have because he WAS really a regular guy for the people in his town, they saw him as a carpenter son of Mary and Joseph nothing more nothing less. Now that means he had a pretty normal youth which include sickness.

[thinktank]

I really don't understand the whole point here. :dontknow:

Ok maybe I shouldn't participate then. :winkgrin:

But I really wonder...what's the point if he was sick or not?

My opinion is that he may have because he WAS really a regular guy for the people in his town, they saw him as a carpenter son of Mary and Joseph nothing more nothing less. Now that means he had a pretty normal youth which include sickness.

well that's the point, you think that sickness is normal and that was so, but Jesus came to restore health to all people and overturn it, so that we are no longer sick, but healed spiritually and physically. If our great master is someone who cannot even have the faith to overcome a cold, how can we hope to achieve better?

Now Jesus healed all the sick who came to him and now he is nol onger limited by his person, but can now operate with the holy spirit to produce healing in any place of the world.

[Cardinal]

The idea that Jesus was deified before His death, burial and resurrection is one I reject tho. He couldn t have become a high priest unless He was "chosen from amongst men"- as a simple man, all He did was done through the obedience of faith. As I see it this obedience is what qualifies Him to overturn death in Adam. I think He was born within the same restraints as Adam, but never disobeyed.

:cloud9: Thanks....that's what I was trying to say, but failed at.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

[jabcat]

Interesting information in your scan WW, and enjoyed your post, Card.  When doing some searching last night, I saw that L. Ray Smith also believes Jesus suffered physical sickness.

I'm just not sure at this point on this topic.  Jesus was human as well as divine.  Humans have maladies.  I would think (this is my mind working - I could be wrong) that Jesus' faith, His direct line to His Father, the Father ensuring His will be done in His Son, etc., would indicate Jesus' victory and authority over things as they came up in His life.  "Even the winds and seas obey Him".  So I would think He could speak the word and be instantly cured of human problems as soon as He began to experience them, whether that be a cold, allergy problems, heartburn, etc.  Or did He allow Himself to suffer those things as part of bearing our sorrows, etc.?  Again, I'm just not sure or ready to take any more of a definite stand at this point.  Honestly, it's not something I'd thought much about until now.   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

But I really wonder...what's the point if he was sick or not?

Once upon a time TT wrote

A healthy christian can do more for the kingdom of God than a sick one.

Then I replied with the words below to say the greatest Christian was often sick. Jesus obviously did a lot for the kingdom of God.

Jesus was often sick....

[Molly]

Even if he was sick, and had reached the end of himself,  he still had help in high places.  As we see after his 40 day stint in the desert and his battle with Satan--

Mark 1:13
And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.



And, so do we.

[WhiteWings]

well that's the point, you think that sickness is normal and that was so, but Jesus came to restore health to all people and overturn it, so that we are no longer sick, but healed spiritually and physically. If our great master is someone who cannot even have the faith to overcome a cold, how can we hope to achieve better?

You seem to believe that faith always overcomes illness.
imo that's not the case.
Sin can be punished with illness.
Illness can be removed by prayer/faith.

But it's always Father who decides on induvidual basis is the can turns out to be a "yes or no"
So the worst sinner ever can be a healty person. And the greatest saint ever can be sick person.

[WhiteWings]

Interesting information in your scan WW, and enjoyed your post, Card.  When doing some searching last night, I saw that L. Ray Smith also believes Jesus suffered physical sickness.

I'm just not sure at this point on this topic.  Jesus was human as well as divine.  Humans have maladies.

That doesn't really matter James.
A devine Jesus stepping down into a crappy human body is a great sacrifice.
A Jesus with Godlike powers to heal everyone and kill everyone that even considered to kill Him, did do so. That's great sacrifice to.
Some see illness as proof of not being holy. I don't agree with that view.

I would think (this is my mind working - I could be wrong) that Jesus' faith, His direct line to His Father, the Father ensuring His will be done in His Son, etc., would indicate Jesus' victory and authority over things as they came up in His life.  "Even the winds and seas obey Him".  So I would think He could speak the word and be instantly cured of human problems as soon as He began to experience them, whether that be a cold, allergy problems, heartburn, etc.  Or did He allow Himself to suffer those things as part of bearing our sorrows, etc.?  Again, I'm just not sure or ready to take any more of a definite stand at this point.  Honestly, it's not something I'd thought much about until now.   :dontknow:

Jesus healed people etc. Gave to the poor etc.
But did Jesus ever do something positive to Himself?

[jabcat]

Interesting information in your scan WW, and enjoyed your post, Card.  When doing some searching last night, I saw that L. Ray Smith also believes Jesus suffered physical sickness.

I'm just not sure at this point on this topic.  Jesus was human as well as divine.  Humans have maladies.

That doesn't really matter James.

I'm just saying He was both, including human;  so then how "human" was His humanity, and what did He do with it/about it...I'm personally not absolutely positive.

[WhiteWings]

Interesting information in your scan WW, and enjoyed your post, Card.  When doing some searching last night, I saw that L. Ray Smith also believes Jesus suffered physical sickness.

Can you post the info you found at Ray's site?

[jabcat]

I'm not sure I agree with all the reasoning, but here it is; I'd encourage all to read with discernment, keeping in mind Jesus is Lord!  (And He and the Father can do whatever they choose to and fits their will.)  So what is the Father's will and way in this matter?   :scratchhead:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7791.0

[Molly]

wow that was an amazing post by Rene.  Can we copy that over here?

I had never considered those verses before--that he might be carrying our physical illness, that he might be walking about in a body so distressed and stressed by illness that he would hide his face or that we would hide our face from him.

He is always so strong and beautiful to me--but I only see his Spirit--


2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

--Isa 53



[a man of] "sorrows"

H4341
מכאבה    מכאוב    מכאב
mak'ôb  mak'ôb  mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.



[and acquainted with] "grief"

H2483
חלי
chŏlı̂y
khol-ee'
From H2470; malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).





Luke 4:23
And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself...

[WhiteWings]

It makes zero sense for God incarnate to have experienced any form of sickness, or illness, or disease until it was meant for him to suffer physical deprivation after Passover

So you agree that "God incarnate"can/did suffer.

until it was meant for him

The question is when was it meant for Him? In the last hours of His life or much earlier? What verse says it was only meant for His last hours?

[WhiteWings]

And as for one not believing that Jesus the Lamb of God was not beat almost unbearably an unrecognizable.....
Isa 52:14  As astonished at thee have been many, (So marred by man his appearance, And his form by sons of men.)

What verse states He was beaten unrecognizable?
What if He was stoned unrecognizable?

[micah7:9]

And as for one not believing that Jesus the Lamb of God was not beat almost unbearably an unrecognizable.....
Isa 52:14  As astonished at thee have been many, (So marred by man his appearance, And his form by sons of men.)

What verse states He was beaten unrecognizable?
What if He was stoned unrecognizable?

Never said stoned, perhpas a different word than beaten , but how else does one get to be "marred my man?"
Then Jesus not only carried sickness and infirmities he also must have sinned to know and relate to us.

[WhiteWings]

That's correct Micah; you didn't say stoned. I said that. Let me explain:
I once thought/assumed Jesus whas beaten half to death by the Romans.
Now I'm no longer sure about that. I think this is perhaps something for another hairy tick thread so only a summary.
The Romans didn't see much harm in Jesus. They very well knew how to deal with enemies of their empire. But the high priests had really to convince the Romans to deal with Jesus.
Anyway the priests tricked the Romans by saying He claimed He was the king of the Jews. And so taking the place of Ceasar. High treason for Romans. Only one answer to that: Crucifixion. And Jesus was crucified.
But.... according to Jewish law a blasphemer (Jesus said He was Son of God) must be stoned to death. And so it happend.
They stoned (marred) Jesus while He was on the cross. :mshock:
:2c:

[micah7:9]

Then Jesus not only carried sickness and infirmities he also must have sinned to know and relate to us.

[WhiteWings]

I don't understand that Micah?
According to the priests He sinned because He was lying about being the Son of God.
But because it was/is the truth it was no lie/sin.

[Molly]

Then Jesus not only carried sickness and infirmities he also must have sinned to know and relate to us.

That's a real interesting statement.  He didn't sin.  So he showed us that it is possible to live in this frail flesh and be tempted all the time and not sin.

And, if he was indeed bearing our infirmities in his own body in the way of sickness and pain, then he also showed that sickness and pain, if it is something that we must endure in this life, is no fault of our own, that it does not have to be related to any 'sin' on our part, but is merely a function of living in a flesh body that is subject to disease, decay, and a limited lifespan.

I'm still processing all this.

[micah7:9]

2Co 5:21  Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
Now I was taught that He was a "sin-offering" that He did not become sin, but if He was revealed to all the people that He was in need of a physcian all the time because His physcial appearance revealed all these earthly infirmities in His body than mankind is subject to and must go through and some healed, then perhaps all the sins of mankind that he bore, also were in his body of flesh and He was unable to be healed because of all the sin.
I believe that He was both physically and spiritually AWARE of all the sickness, infirmities, and diseases and that His countanence revealed His LOVE, but no I cannot except that He was infirm nor do I believe that He became sin.

[eaglesway]

Hi Micah,

I don't know if Jesus was ever sick or not, but I don't think it follows that if He was ever ill He must necessarily have sinned.

Sin is an act of will.

We know as regarding His will He was perfect in obedience to His Father throughout His life- the spotless Lamb.

As to His physicality, we know that there was nothing comely about Him to set Him apart from a typical man.

Jesus was born under the law, subject to death, a mortal man. I still think it is possible He endured colds or whatever......the logic doesn't automatically follow that I must also accept that He sinned.

[WhiteWings]

Micah, I think it's not about sinning but about avoiding sinning. Satan tempeted Him. He resisted. Many other would have made the deal with Satan. So imo Jesus mission was not to bear own sin but resist our sin.
Jesus came to teach us things. We surely didn't need a lesson on how to sin...

[micah7:9]

Well, I dont believe you can have it both ways. Either we can accept that Jesus was related to man with mans physical infirmities and He had them, then He must have KNOWN sin. (I dont accept that) but thats how I see your reasoning.
If He was as human as all mankind [and I believe He was] then He was aware/realized the fraility of man. And when the phrase "Physican heal thyself," is used it sounds like he didnt/couldnt/wouldnt heal himself, but He did others. The only difference between Jesus and me in this body is He was the Son of God... a quickening spirit, not a living soul. Living souls get sick, I am not so sure about quickening spirits.

[eaglesway]

I am not so sure either. That's my point. Can you really have it either way? I see no proof in the scriptures that speaks to it conclusively. Is it an absolute extension of logic that if Jesus had a cold as a child He must have sinned as well? I do not see that as following absolutely on the heels of logic at all.....Interesting  discussion tho.
We all have the tendency to set the parameters of logic within our own paradigm.

Also, the scripture says

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
(Heb 2:17-18)

Did he ever have a pimple? A boil? Did germs die upon touching His holy body? Where do we draw the line. Nails pierced His skin. Perhaps a random flu bug did as well, perhaps not.

I herewith pertaining unto mine own reasoning consign this to the unresolved realm -"olam". Peace brethren, John